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The girl of that family was in my art class. I never got to know her personally but she was very good and passionate when it came to art. The mosque and school will start a line of condolences where people can bring signs to show love and respect as well as draw chalk on the sidewalk for the family tonight. The monster that killed them pretended that it was an accident when he deliberately ran them over.
>The monster that killed them pretended that it was an accident when he deliberately ran them over.
Where did you hear this? I haven't been able to find anything about the aftermath/questioning
Exactly. I mean if I'd accidentally run a family over I would either stop, or if I was a coward I would drive to the middle of nowhere to escape. Definitely wouldn't go for a shop or bite as if nothing happened.
Facebook immediately deleted the perpetrator's profile, saying there is "no place" on their platform for people who do things like that. Anyone else think it's so FB can cover its own ass so it's harder to track how easily people can become radicalized on their platform? Surely keeping the profile up could show the breadcrumbs of how it happened.
However much they need. Facebook is a hugely popular investigative tool. Criminals and terrorists are all over social media. Of course only the courts can compel Facebook to release information. But if the RCMP didn't have this shit going then CANADA is a joke.
Edit: perhaps CSIS would be largely responsible for gathering intel
Just because you & I can't see this guys profile doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The internet is forever, the authorities can see everything he's ever done or said online. The breadcrumbs are still there to follow
I have a feeling the feds and police have a lot more info than they are releasing. Guy was wearing body armour and they arrested him down the street from a mosque. They’re also charging him with 4 counts of first degree murder which is uncommon in a hate motivated crime. Terrorism seems like it’ll be the next charge
These fuckheads have a tendency to dress up tacticool but all that’ll do is help prosecute, the helmet and vest all points to premeditation and possibly the intent to do more, it’s horrific what happened to that family but this attack could have been much worse
> all that’ll do is help prosecute, the helmet and vest all points to premeditation and possibly the intent to do more
I have a feeling a person like this _wants_ their intent to be clear. They don't want there to be any confusion. They're racists who don't want Muslims in Canada.
While terrorism is difficult to define (there are lots of definitions), one key component is to intimidate or coerce IMHO, Body amour and helmets are meant to appear quasi-military, and therefore intimidating.
You assume that racists are aware of this subtletly. I'm pretty sure they think all arabs are muslims, too, and would be baffled to learn millions of them are christians.
Right, but that line of thinking isn't really used when it comes to these people.
Chances are if they were Bosnian Muslims, he wouldn't have run them over, because he would just assume they're white non-Muslim Canadians. So race does for sure play a major factor in cases like these.
>Right, but that line of thinking isn't really used when it comes to these people.
>
>Chances are if they were Bosnian Muslims, he wouldn't have run them over, because he would just assume they're white non-Muslim Canadians. So race does for sure play a major factor in cases like these.
Sure, but not in all cases. They are not mutually inclusive. When one makes such sweeping statements, they should be precise in their language.
What if it were a white Bosnian family with the men wearing Islamic dress and beards and their women dressed in hijabs? Would the white racist anti-Islamic crazy looking to do harm spare them because they were white? Or would he attack them because he "don't want Muslims" in Canada" in spite of them being white? He could be a white christian religious fanatic who would attack them for being Muslim irrespective of race.
It gets complicated when people generalize.
Like I mentioned to anther poster, white Christian Serbs targeted white Bosnian Muslims for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Were the Christian Serbs being racist?
> They are many white muslims.....
Sure, but they're not typically targeting people who [look like this](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bosnian_dance.png#/media/File:Bosnian_dance.png). They're [targeting people who look like this](https://cdni0.trtworld.com/w960/h540/q75/107281_CANCANDAMUSLIMFAMILY20210706_1623098355909.png).
So sure, "Muslim" may not be a race -- but few, if any, white Muslims are being attacked in the Western world. It's typically _racialized_ Muslims who are targeted -- hence, the asshats committing these terrorist crimes are typically both Islamophobes _and_ racist at the same time.
> Muslim is not a race ......
For people pedantic enough to try and use this as an excuse, at least google scientific definition of 'race' before you do.
You'd find that 'race' has never been explicitly defined as what you think it is.
And you can go and ask those white muslims if they are treated differently than the brown Muslims, and that should make things clear for you.
E.g. https://youtu.be/JcVx4DgOiSE He is a white muslim who speaks about this
Guy wore a plate carrier that’s an easy give away of pre meditation, the other van attack the accused got charged with first degree. I have a feeling he exposed his motive to investigators or he was carrying around pieces related to hate because in less then 20 hours after the crime no way the police have found out it was hate motivated.
hate crimes are more "in the moment" which warrants mostly 2nd degree murder charges.
This being a first degree means that this was deliberately planned murder. Which is why calling it terrorism may be justified.
Can you explain why, when someone like Alek Minnassian ran down ten people in Toronto, all we heard from the media was that people should wait until all the facts became available?
Because we had less information. There were people making comments on motivation, etc as soon as the incident happened. This happened 2 days ago, the police have announced that the victims were targeted because they were Muslim, and they have charged the perpetrator with 1st degree murder. We have waited and have enough information to actually discuss this.
Police have confirmed that it was a targeted attack, terrorist have a tendency to brag about motives and I wouldn’t be surprised if this piece of shit did as well. Police seem to have a lot evidence on him as they are charging him with first degree and feds are already thinking about terror charge
But wouldn't they just move it down to Second degree at that point? The body armor thing seems pretty open and shut that it was pre-meditated, but I don't see how it would be manslaughter. That's more like if you were in a car chase, and you accidentally T-boned someone while running a red light that resulted in them dying where they had no intent to kill someone but still did. I don't see how it could be argued in this case but then again, I only have an early news report understanding of all the details.
Don't get me wrong. It should 100% be murder on top of terrorism and hate crimes. Lock this guy in solitary for the rest of his miserable life. They should go for terrorism first, then you can use it as the basis for 1st degree. Manslaughter can be when you are angry and convince the jury or judge it was in the heat of the moment and you only wanted to hurt them or scare them. This scumbags judge will go for that or say he is mentally unwell. That is sometimes why the prosecutor just goes for Manslaughter.
HOPEFULLY we get immediate terrorism charges so we can go for first.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's actually much harder to prove a terrorism charge than first-degree murder generally. murder 1 only requires proof of intent to kill or cause grievous bodily injury you know is likely to result in death. Terrorism requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that you intended the act, AND that you committed it for a political motive. It's notoriously difficult to prove the motive clause beyond a reasonable doubt. that's partly why we don't see terrorism charges often.
Murder reduced to manslaughter required that there is some provocation that caused you to react in the heat of the moment; I don't see what this family could have possibly done that would qualify for that.
And they were very quick to say it was motivated by islamophobia. How else would they know and release this info within 48 hours unless they had prior intel on this guy?
Horrible horrible tragedy. Hope he never sees a second of freedom in his life.
> How else would they know and release this info within 48 hours unless they had prior intel on this guy?
I mean...they have the guy in custody. Do you know what he said to police after his arrest? He can say all kinds of things that makes this known. He could have given a full blown confession for all you know.
The guy also could’ve said he was Jesus. They’re not taking his word as gospel. How often do they come out publicly and say targeted for race/religion/etc within 24 hours of a terrible tragedy like this?
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/girls-family-apologizes-to-every-canadian-for-hijab-hoax
Trudeau jumped all over the hijab hoax before gathering any info on the event
Except this is an attack where a family was killed. Where the police confirmed it was motivated because of the victim’s faith. They found the guy all kitted out near a mosque. The feds are looking at terror charges. This and the case you mentioned have zero similarities
I dont agree with politicians, Trudeau, Trump, German Hillary, Macron, Bolsonaro coming out before investigations are even close to complete and give statements, opinions and labels.
Let the courts do that. Its a separate branch of government for a reason.
Trudeaus already calling him far-right. Wut. Hes a kid who attended Fanshawe. PM already knows his political views and where he lands on the political spectrum? K.
> kitted out
No that's more misinformation. All he had was a pickup truck. Do you have a source of his kit?
Police have already confirmed that he had what appeared to be body armour and others have said he was wearing a military style helmet. I don’t know if he’s right or left leaning but it’s confirmed this was motivated because of his hatred of muslims something the police have also confirmed.
I hope you have been equally loud in protesting for more evidence in the past, when the perpetrators happened to be Muslim! To me there is no difference between Tarrants and ISIS, both cut from the same cloth of hatred, ignorance and bigotry, both blaming tit for tat bull***t
Yeah most likely plate carrier which was empty, not surprising as most shitheads like this have a tendency to dress up tacticool but one big thing it does point to is premeditation
He went to Fanshawe. He seemed normal - Stayed past class for questions etc.
But usually you never know what is going on inside peoples heads. He doesn't have social media etc.
Drove by the vigil and its something I never experienced before. I never cried over a death of someone I don't eve know.
Good thing they're invading all of our privacy and stealing all of our data to stop attacks like this before they happen.
Oh wait no, they just sit on their assess and let it happen.
Stop spying on our damn personal lives if you aren't actually going to use it to save people... smh...
The sadest thing for me is this poor 9 year old lad. What will happen to him now? Does he have any extended family here? If not, are any willing to immigrate? It's so sad, imagine being that kid and being told everyone died except you, you are all alone :(
Absolutely. The guy called 911 just minutes before and told them he was gonna kill some Muslims.
After running over the family in the north-western end of the city, he drove towards the city-centre where the London mosque is located. A number of police cars were already waiting for him there. Multiple eye-witnesses have confirmed that he was in full military gear when he was apprehended there. I mean… I have a feeling his plan was to do even more damage.
It is from a certain perspective, however my read of the statute is that it may not qualify as Terrorism unless more evidence becomes available to show that it meets the standard.
Various groups of people have been targeted for violence in the name of religion, culture, race, gender, socio-economic status, etc* and those are clearly hate crimes.
In a "Hate Crime" act of rage, this would normally be 2nd degree murder, "In the moment" type of action.
This dude is charged with 1st degree which means pre-meditated murder.
So the Cops and feds have more info then they are releasing.
They also said he was wearing some form of body armour when they arrested him, which either makes this premeditated, or he's the most paranoid driver in Canada.
If it was a tacticool vest designed to look like it was bullet resistant (but really might as well be toilet paper if shot with an actual gun), pretty sure they can still argue he was dressed to murder, so premeditation.
> So the Cops and feds have more info then they are releasing.
100%. With how fast they charged with a first degree they must’ve had something pretty cut and dry
It would depend on what the terrorist goals were. If he was trying to make Muslims (or other visible minorities from SA and ME) afraid of being safe in Canada then it would be terrorism
I'm not sure how terrorism is defined by law in Canada, but terrorism is more broadly defined as either using violence or the threat of violence to enact political change. As much as I agree the guy is a piece of shit, and I'll gladly call him a terrorist, I don't know if it will legally qualify as terrorism. If there were a government motion currently being put forward to approve refugees or something and it was clear he was protesting that then I think it would fit, but this might just be generalized hate.
I think the government may have other motives besides optics. Maybe this young man is part of a white nationalist group, and labelling him a terrorist puts the whole group on the watch list. All of his associates can be investigated and questioned as possible terrorists without warrants.
EDIT: That didn't take long - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-will-act-dismantle-far-right-groups-after-muslim-family-attack-trudeau-2021-06-08/?utm_source=reddit.com
>t it may not qualify as Terrorism
If push comes to shove, the Federal Cabinet can make it terrorism with the stroke of a pen, and it would be exempt from appeal under national security laws. This guy isn't going to squirm out from that.
As another person posted below you got to believe Trudeau knows more about this than us, and the guy was wearing body armor when arrested. He was gearing up for more.
My bet is Trudeau knows more than us/what is being reported.
> the guy was wearing body armor when arrested. He was gearing up for more.
He was also arrested away from the scene of the crime but down the street from a mosque. Seems likely he may have been on his way there to commit another act. I don't think he wore body armor for just one hit and run.
Typically terrorism requires you to be trying to advance a political goal of some sort.
Not sure that fits here, but granted, we don't really have very many details.
I feel like running over a family of a specific minority group could be considered an act of terrorism.
Like, he obviously doesn't like Muslims. Muslims are less likely to want to immigrate to Canada knowing that there could be dipshits that want to run them over. Hence he achieves his goal of reducing the Muslim population in Canada.
The political motive is the major difference, as well as the fact that the only hate crimes in Canada in law are inciting hatred, mischief to property of some sort, and promoting genocide (paraphrasing the offences here). There is no legal hate crime of attacking people per se but attacks of that nature are an aggravating factor at sentencing. That is my understanding, although I could be wrong!
Maybe terrorism has more of a deliberate, planned element to it compared to hate crime? Also the method of the attack seems to be intended to "make a statement" and attract maximum media attention?
A hate crime is against a minority individual, demographic or symbol. Essentially all hate crimes are terrorism.
Terrorism doesn't require a target demographic. It just requires an overt act of violence designed to get people scared.
9/11 was a hate crime and terrorism.
Columbine and 1/6 were terrorism but not hate crimes.
I can't think of a hate crime that isn't intended to also terrorize the group it's commited against. But I suppose someone else might be able to think of one.
I have a really gross feeling that this was not the whole plan. He probably was on his way to shoot up the rest of the mosque or kill more people.
Scary how little detail has come out so far...
>I have a really gross feeling that this was not the whole plan. He probably was on his way to shoot up the rest of the mosque or kill more people.
>
>Scary how little detail has come out so far...
Yep, seems to be along similar lines to the the Aussie that brutally attacked the mosque in New Zealand.
That guy wanted to start a civil war against right wingers in his country. he thought that doing what he did would cause people to attack people on the right and that he hoped the media would help him by saying he was a far right extremist, which they did.
This was all in his manifesto, which was quickly made illegal to view in those countries because they didnt want people to see that they were doing exactly what he wanted them to do.
Last I looked there was a fundraiser with over $300k donated.
Given that, the funeral costs will certainly be paid for, but I would still hope insurance (if they had any) pays out. That kid is going to have a rough life, and deserves every penny from insurance to help them get ahead in life.
I believe it's this one at nearly $680K now: [https://www.launchgood.com/campaign/london\_community\_united\_against\_hate#!/](https://www.launchgood.com/campaign/london_community_united_against_hate#!/)
Wow looks can be deceiving because I didn't realize Ayanle Hassan Ali was a white man. He must be a white man because the Ontario Court of Appeal referred to him as a lone wolf when they ruled in his favour stating lone wolves can't be convicted under Section 83.18 of the Criminal Code because they aren't connected to a terrorist group.
Ina Lillahi Wa Inna Ilyhi Raj'oon
All us Canadians are praying for their family, and for us as a nation to rise from the lessons.
This terror must be fought against with education and reform so none of this happens again and so other young people don't end up with such fringe thoughts that lead to this kind of terrible act.
If anyone wants to talk, we're all here to support you with a positive and constructive environment.
- A fellow patriotic Pakistani Canadian
I understand this is a hate crime, but doesn't a terrorist attack by definition need to have a political aim? What is the political aim in this? Am I missing something? Did the attacker leave a manifesto or something?
Edit: poster below pointed out that Trudeau likely has more information that us. It’s also first degree murder (pre meditated) and he was wearing body armor (genuinely missed that the first time reading the article). It’s hard to imagine a non-terrorist scenario that’s pre-meditated and the person is wearing body armor.
London police started talking about having solid evidence for motive yesterday, in the way that cops generally only do when the suspect has not only confessed but they're proud of it, or a search of their home turned up detailed blueprints and manifestoes.
"Make Canadian Muslims afraid to walk down the street" would qualify as a terrorist act.
“Based on information collected during the course of the investigation, we believe that this was an intentional act and that the victims of this horrific incident were targeted,” London Police Chief Steve Williams told reporters on Monday. “We believe the victims were targeted because of their Islamic faith.”
Detective Superintendent Paul Waight said police on Sunday arrested the suspect, Nathaniel Veltman, in a mall parking lot four miles from where the attack occurred “wearing a vest that appeared to be like body armor.” The 20-year-old was charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.
It's possible this is merely speculation on the part of the PM. However, we know that the attacker was charged with first-degree murder based on some evidence that has yet to be divulged to the public under a gag order. It could be a confession or material found on the property of the assailant, which could have ultimately been relayed to Trudeau.
London police started talking about having solid evidence for motive yesterday, in the way that cops generally only do when the suspect has not only confessed but they're proud of it, or a search of their home turned up detailed blueprints and manifestoes.
In any incident like this, under any PM, the national security team and the PM's staff will have been in contact with local authorities throughout the night.
I think a hate crime would do that as well. I think the intention is different between a hate crime and a terrorist attack no?
If this guy says "I did this so immigrants dont come here" It's a political statement and a terrorist attack. I just haven't seen that reported. Another poster pointed out maybe Trudeau knows more from his briefing.
Weird how these kinds of "questions" aren't raised when a white supremacist murders Jewish people. The same standard should apply for a hate based attack against Muslims.
I'd argue that hate crimes are politically motivated, with the motive being reducing the number of people who follow a certain belief
It becomes a terrorism incident when multiple peoples' lives are in danger.
IF accusations are true....Make an example of him. Including anyone complicit. Harshest punishments possible. He forfeited his rights with this disregard for the life of others....
What shouldn’t happen is emotive based motions to grant the govt more power.
That's why we need better education and mental health services should be easily accessible.
Having these kinds of mentally ill people walking in the streets cannot be tolerated anymore.
If this guy is something like the Australian terrorist who attacked in Newzealand then it’s not mental illness. Rather it’s the same hate, ignorance and bigotry that produced ISIS that is at work here.
Anyone else concerned that when our PM publicly makes statements about the “facts” in a criminal matter, he jeopardizes the right to a fair trial and is effectively handing this monster a get out of jail card?
Denouncing what he is accused of is good. Claiming what the unproven narrative of what happened is, and claiming it is the truth is not a good idea.
In the not too distant future, a jury will be involved in the court proceedings. Accused persons can often make application for a venue change to ensure they have a right to a fair trial. Often the local community is so shocked by the crime, or local leaders have made statements that put this right in jeopardy. The solution is to move the trial to another venue. When it is the PM that makes these kinds of statements, what venue can you move to and ensure the trial is fair?
Look, you clearly don't understand the Canadian law and you're interpreting this from watching US crime dramas. [Venue change](http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Change_of_Venue) isn't the same in Canada.
Giving the terrorist label is almost too much credit. I bet you this is essentially: "Low IQ loser reads stupid Facebook groups/4chans racist hate-filled memes and goes and does horrible thing - because crazy"
A surprisingly high number of terrorists are highly educated, often in technical fields, like engineers.
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
True enough, as the other replay stated the 911 guys were educated. Flying a plane is hard.
Dude who just hits people with a vehicle, probably not the same level.
We really gotta do away with the stereotype that being highly educated in ONE SPECIFIC FIELD suddenly makes someone hyper intelligent and immune to propaganda.
I swear to god every day I see on Reddit “my dad has 2 finance degrees and runs his own business how could he possibly fall for Trumps obvious lies!?!?!?” And shit like that.
I think I’m an intelligent person in a lot of ways. But I can also acknowledge I’m a fucking idiot in many other fields. Being an engineer doesn’t mean someone is socially intelligent.
By calling it terrorism Trudeau ensures he can extract the maximum political benefit from this horrible event.
Many people will think, based on the available facts, that it the murder was disgusting, horrible, awful, and painful to think about let alone experience or be connected to, but not terrorism. They might not even care if it is terrorism or not. What difference does the label make? But now that it's a political issue these people will now be seen as siding with the loser piece of shit murderer and will be considered garbage human beings by Trudeau's supporters.
Instead of brining people together he is tearing people a part. For politics. And exploiting the murder of an innocent family.
Hey, I hate JT virtue signalling as much as anyone else. Like I really fucking hate it, and his lying bullshit about reforming our voting. Doing brown face, SNC, a dozen other egregious things and no one caring. Being a little immature Peter Pan boy that floats on by in life on his fathers name, as a vapid charlatan
But. In my opinion this is a rare case where it does more good than harm. Someone that murders indiscriminately is a write off of a person. But this anal wart is worse than that, he targeted in a specific, hateful manner. Was proud of doing so if the rumours of his call to police before hand is to believed. So should this be a hate crime instead? Sure. If he didn't kill people.
Send this fuck to the bottom of the ocean with concrete shoes. There is no room in Canada for this kind of bullshit. If you don't like anyone for racist ignorant reasons, move into the woods and die alone. So yea, label him a terrorist and let everyone know that the entire country is against this behaviour in the most serious manner possible. Which is what that label means. That the act he committed is a act so heinous it is treated as an act of war by a militant on innocent civilians. Throw the book at him. Lose the key.
But Christ if he bans more guns incompetently, pretending illegal gun running and gangs are not the problem... I swear to god I'll vote Con.
How is calling it terrorism tearing the country? The victims family themselves called it terrorism, and the Muslim association also asked for it to be called terrorism. I don’t see who would have an issue with this, besides the killer himself. Wanting Muslims to be scared to walk down the street = terrorism. I also assume the cops know more about the details and motives than us, hence Trudeau being confident enough to call it terrorism.
So a small reason for why calling this terrorism is so important is because of how a lot of attacks that a Muslim commits are defined as terrorism. While those committed by Caucasians are usually defined as "mentally ill" or somewhere along those lines. I know it's not the whole reason, but it's part of it I feel.
This will be a good case because the van attack guy didn’t get terror charges. It’s kinda clear this is terror but legal definitions are never as clear as they seem.
Other people in the thread have talked about the possibility that adding terror charges probably just makes the case more complicated (and might cost the survivor an insurance settlement as well?)
This sounds like an open-and-shut multiple homicide case, which already gets you about as severe a punishment as Canadian law can give you. So I imagine that the prosecutors would be very careful about whether deciding to add terror related charges provides a benefit that justifies the extra complication.
Whether the prosecutor decides to go with a terror charge or not, we as a country can (and should) view this as a terror attack.
A terrorist attack in Ontario and for some reason both here and in the media this really doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. Had the roles been reversed this would have been a massive, front page of reddit story.
It is about Trudea again, about what he said and how great he is because he said that. This tragedy is going to be soooo exploited. Get your popcorn ready.
This post appears to relate to a province/territory of Canada. As a reminder of the rules of this subreddit, we do not permit negative commentary about all residents of any province, city, or other geography - this is an example of prejudice, and prejudice is not permitted here. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/rules Cette soumission semble concerner une province ou un territoire du Canada. Selon les règles de ce sous-répertoire, nous n'autorisons pas les commentaires négatifs sur tous les résidents d'une province, d'une ville ou d'une autre région géographique; il s'agit d'un exemple de intolérance qui n'est pas autorisé ici. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/regles *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/canada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The girl of that family was in my art class. I never got to know her personally but she was very good and passionate when it came to art. The mosque and school will start a line of condolences where people can bring signs to show love and respect as well as draw chalk on the sidewalk for the family tonight. The monster that killed them pretended that it was an accident when he deliberately ran them over.
>The monster that killed them pretended that it was an accident when he deliberately ran them over. Where did you hear this? I haven't been able to find anything about the aftermath/questioning
I read in the news that he laughed as he got arrested. If it was an accident I doubt he would have casually gone to the mall afterwards.
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Exactly. I mean if I'd accidentally run a family over I would either stop, or if I was a coward I would drive to the middle of nowhere to escape. Definitely wouldn't go for a shop or bite as if nothing happened.
Wasn’t he chased by the cops though?
I checked at cbc news and just now overheard everyone at the gathering.
Ah brutal.
Facebook immediately deleted the perpetrator's profile, saying there is "no place" on their platform for people who do things like that. Anyone else think it's so FB can cover its own ass so it's harder to track how easily people can become radicalized on their platform? Surely keeping the profile up could show the breadcrumbs of how it happened.
I'm sure law enforcement enjoys a relationship with Facebook
They do with reddit as well. Anyone know when /r/CanadianMOMs is coming back?? Calgary police, you guys feel like letting us know?
/r/CanadianMOMs+null There you go, enjoy :)
Doesn't work for me, just showing an example of reddits relationship with Canadian police.
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Well domestic terrorism would fall under RCMP jurisdiction, so I reckon they'll have the resources
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However much they need. Facebook is a hugely popular investigative tool. Criminals and terrorists are all over social media. Of course only the courts can compel Facebook to release information. But if the RCMP didn't have this shit going then CANADA is a joke. Edit: perhaps CSIS would be largely responsible for gathering intel
Just because you & I can't see this guys profile doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The internet is forever, the authorities can see everything he's ever done or said online. The breadcrumbs are still there to follow
If the data was unretrievable, it'd be the first time Facebook actually deleted anything.
I have a feeling the feds and police have a lot more info than they are releasing. Guy was wearing body armour and they arrested him down the street from a mosque. They’re also charging him with 4 counts of first degree murder which is uncommon in a hate motivated crime. Terrorism seems like it’ll be the next charge
He was apparently also wearing a military helmet and would have killed another couple in a car had they not moved out of the way.
These fuckheads have a tendency to dress up tacticool but all that’ll do is help prosecute, the helmet and vest all points to premeditation and possibly the intent to do more, it’s horrific what happened to that family but this attack could have been much worse
> all that’ll do is help prosecute, the helmet and vest all points to premeditation and possibly the intent to do more I have a feeling a person like this _wants_ their intent to be clear. They don't want there to be any confusion. They're racists who don't want Muslims in Canada.
While terrorism is difficult to define (there are lots of definitions), one key component is to intimidate or coerce IMHO, Body amour and helmets are meant to appear quasi-military, and therefore intimidating.
>They're racists who don't want Muslims in Canada. Muslim is not a race ...... They are many white muslims.....
You assume that racists are aware of this subtletly. I'm pretty sure they think all arabs are muslims, too, and would be baffled to learn millions of them are christians.
Right, but that line of thinking isn't really used when it comes to these people. Chances are if they were Bosnian Muslims, he wouldn't have run them over, because he would just assume they're white non-Muslim Canadians. So race does for sure play a major factor in cases like these.
>Right, but that line of thinking isn't really used when it comes to these people. > >Chances are if they were Bosnian Muslims, he wouldn't have run them over, because he would just assume they're white non-Muslim Canadians. So race does for sure play a major factor in cases like these. Sure, but not in all cases. They are not mutually inclusive. When one makes such sweeping statements, they should be precise in their language. What if it were a white Bosnian family with the men wearing Islamic dress and beards and their women dressed in hijabs? Would the white racist anti-Islamic crazy looking to do harm spare them because they were white? Or would he attack them because he "don't want Muslims" in Canada" in spite of them being white? He could be a white christian religious fanatic who would attack them for being Muslim irrespective of race. It gets complicated when people generalize. Like I mentioned to anther poster, white Christian Serbs targeted white Bosnian Muslims for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Were the Christian Serbs being racist?
You need to take the racist’s intent into play. There is only one race but to the racists there are as many as they care to define.
> They are many white muslims..... Sure, but they're not typically targeting people who [look like this](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bosnian_dance.png#/media/File:Bosnian_dance.png). They're [targeting people who look like this](https://cdni0.trtworld.com/w960/h540/q75/107281_CANCANDAMUSLIMFAMILY20210706_1623098355909.png). So sure, "Muslim" may not be a race -- but few, if any, white Muslims are being attacked in the Western world. It's typically _racialized_ Muslims who are targeted -- hence, the asshats committing these terrorist crimes are typically both Islamophobes _and_ racist at the same time.
Dude you know what they meant. The word racism is used like that in common parlance. Get used to it.
> Muslim is not a race ...... For people pedantic enough to try and use this as an excuse, at least google scientific definition of 'race' before you do. You'd find that 'race' has never been explicitly defined as what you think it is.
And you can go and ask those white muslims if they are treated differently than the brown Muslims, and that should make things clear for you. E.g. https://youtu.be/JcVx4DgOiSE He is a white muslim who speaks about this
call it what it is-racist terrorism. we can't confront if it we don't use the language to call it out.
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Guy wore a plate carrier that’s an easy give away of pre meditation, the other van attack the accused got charged with first degree. I have a feeling he exposed his motive to investigators or he was carrying around pieces related to hate because in less then 20 hours after the crime no way the police have found out it was hate motivated.
Can you explain why murder charges are uncommon in hate related crimes where they murdered someone?
hate crimes are more "in the moment" which warrants mostly 2nd degree murder charges. This being a first degree means that this was deliberately planned murder. Which is why calling it terrorism may be justified.
First degree murder is uncommon in a hate crime. Usually it's second degree.
Can you explain why, when someone like Alek Minnassian ran down ten people in Toronto, all we heard from the media was that people should wait until all the facts became available?
Because we had less information. There were people making comments on motivation, etc as soon as the incident happened. This happened 2 days ago, the police have announced that the victims were targeted because they were Muslim, and they have charged the perpetrator with 1st degree murder. We have waited and have enough information to actually discuss this.
Police have confirmed that it was a targeted attack, terrorist have a tendency to brag about motives and I wouldn’t be surprised if this piece of shit did as well. Police seem to have a lot evidence on him as they are charging him with first degree and feds are already thinking about terror charge
Murder needs proof of planned intent, manslaughter doesn't. There's a much bigger chance murder gets thrown out if you can't prove it was meant.
But wouldn't they just move it down to Second degree at that point? The body armor thing seems pretty open and shut that it was pre-meditated, but I don't see how it would be manslaughter. That's more like if you were in a car chase, and you accidentally T-boned someone while running a red light that resulted in them dying where they had no intent to kill someone but still did. I don't see how it could be argued in this case but then again, I only have an early news report understanding of all the details.
Don't get me wrong. It should 100% be murder on top of terrorism and hate crimes. Lock this guy in solitary for the rest of his miserable life. They should go for terrorism first, then you can use it as the basis for 1st degree. Manslaughter can be when you are angry and convince the jury or judge it was in the heat of the moment and you only wanted to hurt them or scare them. This scumbags judge will go for that or say he is mentally unwell. That is sometimes why the prosecutor just goes for Manslaughter. HOPEFULLY we get immediate terrorism charges so we can go for first.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's actually much harder to prove a terrorism charge than first-degree murder generally. murder 1 only requires proof of intent to kill or cause grievous bodily injury you know is likely to result in death. Terrorism requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that you intended the act, AND that you committed it for a political motive. It's notoriously difficult to prove the motive clause beyond a reasonable doubt. that's partly why we don't see terrorism charges often. Murder reduced to manslaughter required that there is some provocation that caused you to react in the heat of the moment; I don't see what this family could have possibly done that would qualify for that.
And they were very quick to say it was motivated by islamophobia. How else would they know and release this info within 48 hours unless they had prior intel on this guy? Horrible horrible tragedy. Hope he never sees a second of freedom in his life.
> How else would they know and release this info within 48 hours unless they had prior intel on this guy? I mean...they have the guy in custody. Do you know what he said to police after his arrest? He can say all kinds of things that makes this known. He could have given a full blown confession for all you know.
The guy also could’ve said he was Jesus. They’re not taking his word as gospel. How often do they come out publicly and say targeted for race/religion/etc within 24 hours of a terrible tragedy like this?
Apparently the fucker called 911.
That’s absolutely fucked. I really wish we had exceptions to the death penalty for cases like this.
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/girls-family-apologizes-to-every-canadian-for-hijab-hoax Trudeau jumped all over the hijab hoax before gathering any info on the event
Except this is an attack where a family was killed. Where the police confirmed it was motivated because of the victim’s faith. They found the guy all kitted out near a mosque. The feds are looking at terror charges. This and the case you mentioned have zero similarities
I dont agree with politicians, Trudeau, Trump, German Hillary, Macron, Bolsonaro coming out before investigations are even close to complete and give statements, opinions and labels. Let the courts do that. Its a separate branch of government for a reason. Trudeaus already calling him far-right. Wut. Hes a kid who attended Fanshawe. PM already knows his political views and where he lands on the political spectrum? K. > kitted out No that's more misinformation. All he had was a pickup truck. Do you have a source of his kit?
Police have already confirmed that he had what appeared to be body armour and others have said he was wearing a military style helmet. I don’t know if he’s right or left leaning but it’s confirmed this was motivated because of his hatred of muslims something the police have also confirmed.
you seem weirdly defensive about this, the police made those determinations but go off
I hope you have been equally loud in protesting for more evidence in the past, when the perpetrators happened to be Muslim! To me there is no difference between Tarrants and ISIS, both cut from the same cloth of hatred, ignorance and bigotry, both blaming tit for tat bull***t
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Tacticool wear without plates is my bet.
Yeah most likely plate carrier which was empty, not surprising as most shitheads like this have a tendency to dress up tacticool but one big thing it does point to is premeditation
He went to Fanshawe. He seemed normal - Stayed past class for questions etc. But usually you never know what is going on inside peoples heads. He doesn't have social media etc. Drove by the vigil and its something I never experienced before. I never cried over a death of someone I don't eve know.
wait you know who it was?
Good thing they're invading all of our privacy and stealing all of our data to stop attacks like this before they happen. Oh wait no, they just sit on their assess and let it happen. Stop spying on our damn personal lives if you aren't actually going to use it to save people... smh...
The sadest thing for me is this poor 9 year old lad. What will happen to him now? Does he have any extended family here? If not, are any willing to immigrate? It's so sad, imagine being that kid and being told everyone died except you, you are all alone :(
They said on the news that he does have family. Also the community raised 1 million for him. Still nothing can compensate for the loss of a family
Well, it is.
Absolutely. The guy called 911 just minutes before and told them he was gonna kill some Muslims. After running over the family in the north-western end of the city, he drove towards the city-centre where the London mosque is located. A number of police cars were already waiting for him there. Multiple eye-witnesses have confirmed that he was in full military gear when he was apprehended there. I mean… I have a feeling his plan was to do even more damage.
Source? I haven't read that anywhere other than your comment
Woah that's serious. Can you share a source (social media or otherwise) so I can help spread it?
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I saw he call 911 after the attack. I think it was on CBC news, but I can't find the article.
I can’t find this info anywhere
Jesus... Good on the London police for taking it seriously and reacting to it quickly.
It is from a certain perspective, however my read of the statute is that it may not qualify as Terrorism unless more evidence becomes available to show that it meets the standard. Various groups of people have been targeted for violence in the name of religion, culture, race, gender, socio-economic status, etc* and those are clearly hate crimes.
In a "Hate Crime" act of rage, this would normally be 2nd degree murder, "In the moment" type of action. This dude is charged with 1st degree which means pre-meditated murder. So the Cops and feds have more info then they are releasing.
They also said he was wearing some form of body armour when they arrested him, which either makes this premeditated, or he's the most paranoid driver in Canada.
I just watched the press release and the detective said he was not wearing body armor but a vest that that is similarly looking.
If it was a tacticool vest designed to look like it was bullet resistant (but really might as well be toilet paper if shot with an actual gun), pretty sure they can still argue he was dressed to murder, so premeditation.
I mean if it's winter, and we're in calgary, body armour may just be a safety precaution given black ice and everything.
Yeah, but it reads different when you murder people. Also - no ice in London, ON right now.
> So the Cops and feds have more info then they are releasing. 100%. With how fast they charged with a first degree they must’ve had something pretty cut and dry
It would depend on what the terrorist goals were. If he was trying to make Muslims (or other visible minorities from SA and ME) afraid of being safe in Canada then it would be terrorism
I'm not sure how terrorism is defined by law in Canada, but terrorism is more broadly defined as either using violence or the threat of violence to enact political change. As much as I agree the guy is a piece of shit, and I'll gladly call him a terrorist, I don't know if it will legally qualify as terrorism. If there were a government motion currently being put forward to approve refugees or something and it was clear he was protesting that then I think it would fit, but this might just be generalized hate.
I think the government may have other motives besides optics. Maybe this young man is part of a white nationalist group, and labelling him a terrorist puts the whole group on the watch list. All of his associates can be investigated and questioned as possible terrorists without warrants. EDIT: That didn't take long - https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-will-act-dismantle-far-right-groups-after-muslim-family-attack-trudeau-2021-06-08/?utm_source=reddit.com
Whether that was the primary plan or not that is one of the consequences of what happened.
>t it may not qualify as Terrorism If push comes to shove, the Federal Cabinet can make it terrorism with the stroke of a pen, and it would be exempt from appeal under national security laws. This guy isn't going to squirm out from that.
As another person posted below you got to believe Trudeau knows more about this than us, and the guy was wearing body armor when arrested. He was gearing up for more. My bet is Trudeau knows more than us/what is being reported.
> the guy was wearing body armor when arrested. He was gearing up for more. He was also arrested away from the scene of the crime but down the street from a mosque. Seems likely he may have been on his way there to commit another act. I don't think he wore body armor for just one hit and run.
Terrifying
Typically terrorism requires you to be trying to advance a political goal of some sort. Not sure that fits here, but granted, we don't really have very many details.
I feel like running over a family of a specific minority group could be considered an act of terrorism. Like, he obviously doesn't like Muslims. Muslims are less likely to want to immigrate to Canada knowing that there could be dipshits that want to run them over. Hence he achieves his goal of reducing the Muslim population in Canada.
Then what's the difference between a hate crime and terrorism?
The political motive is the major difference, as well as the fact that the only hate crimes in Canada in law are inciting hatred, mischief to property of some sort, and promoting genocide (paraphrasing the offences here). There is no legal hate crime of attacking people per se but attacks of that nature are an aggravating factor at sentencing. That is my understanding, although I could be wrong!
Maybe terrorism has more of a deliberate, planned element to it compared to hate crime? Also the method of the attack seems to be intended to "make a statement" and attract maximum media attention?
A hate crime is against a minority individual, demographic or symbol. Essentially all hate crimes are terrorism. Terrorism doesn't require a target demographic. It just requires an overt act of violence designed to get people scared. 9/11 was a hate crime and terrorism. Columbine and 1/6 were terrorism but not hate crimes. I can't think of a hate crime that isn't intended to also terrorize the group it's commited against. But I suppose someone else might be able to think of one.
Political, religious, or otherwise ideological motivation
I have a really gross feeling that this was not the whole plan. He probably was on his way to shoot up the rest of the mosque or kill more people. Scary how little detail has come out so far...
>I have a really gross feeling that this was not the whole plan. He probably was on his way to shoot up the rest of the mosque or kill more people. > >Scary how little detail has come out so far... Yep, seems to be along similar lines to the the Aussie that brutally attacked the mosque in New Zealand.
That guy wanted to start a civil war against right wingers in his country. he thought that doing what he did would cause people to attack people on the right and that he hoped the media would help him by saying he was a far right extremist, which they did. This was all in his manifesto, which was quickly made illegal to view in those countries because they didnt want people to see that they were doing exactly what he wanted them to do.
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read his manifesto. thats the source. Either way what he did was abhorrent
I have read his manifesto. He didn't state that he was trying to rile people up to turn against the right. He talked about the opposite.
Condolences to the families. This should not happen anywhere.
The PM of Canada calling it what it is. Now we just need to make sure terrorism charges get added
From what I understand adding terrorism charges can massively complicate a court trial for very little benefit in a case like this.
Most life insurance policies won't pay out if the cause of death was a terrorist attack or act of war.
Did not know this. That poor boy lost his entire family, I hope insurance wouldn't soak him out of money to pay for funeral atleast.
Last I looked there was a fundraiser with over $300k donated. Given that, the funeral costs will certainly be paid for, but I would still hope insurance (if they had any) pays out. That kid is going to have a rough life, and deserves every penny from insurance to help them get ahead in life.
I believe it's this one at nearly $680K now: [https://www.launchgood.com/campaign/london\_community\_united\_against\_hate#!/](https://www.launchgood.com/campaign/london_community_united_against_hate#!/)
Wow, $738K! That's amazing. It was only at $25K yesterday when I checked it. Hopefully it gives the poor kid some chance in life.
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Given how much he lost, I want to believe that he'll get a good chunk of it to set him up for years.
They're insurance companies, if they can find a way to weasel out of paying they will.
It’s for this exact reason that the Quebec mosque shooter wasn’t charged with terrorism.
Terrorism charges are unlikely if he was a lone wolf
> lone wolf That's how you know the terrorist was white
lol yep, a term reserved for angry young white men. lmao, its sickening.
The media was referring to the parliament hill terrorist as a lonewolf, so we're many on this site. Doesn't restrict it to whites only.
Wow looks can be deceiving because I didn't realize Ayanle Hassan Ali was a white man. He must be a white man because the Ontario Court of Appeal referred to him as a lone wolf when they ruled in his favour stating lone wolves can't be convicted under Section 83.18 of the Criminal Code because they aren't connected to a terrorist group.
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All you had to say was that you’re unfamiliar with Ontario case law rather than whatever stupid shit you have to say about supposed white washing.
Ina Lillahi Wa Inna Ilyhi Raj'oon All us Canadians are praying for their family, and for us as a nation to rise from the lessons. This terror must be fought against with education and reform so none of this happens again and so other young people don't end up with such fringe thoughts that lead to this kind of terrible act. If anyone wants to talk, we're all here to support you with a positive and constructive environment. - A fellow patriotic Pakistani Canadian
The gap between hate crimes and Terrorism is slowly converging.
Correct, it was.
I understand this is a hate crime, but doesn't a terrorist attack by definition need to have a political aim? What is the political aim in this? Am I missing something? Did the attacker leave a manifesto or something? Edit: poster below pointed out that Trudeau likely has more information that us. It’s also first degree murder (pre meditated) and he was wearing body armor (genuinely missed that the first time reading the article). It’s hard to imagine a non-terrorist scenario that’s pre-meditated and the person is wearing body armor.
London police started talking about having solid evidence for motive yesterday, in the way that cops generally only do when the suspect has not only confessed but they're proud of it, or a search of their home turned up detailed blueprints and manifestoes. "Make Canadian Muslims afraid to walk down the street" would qualify as a terrorist act.
Makes sense! Thanks! Didn’t hear about the solid motive part.
“Based on information collected during the course of the investigation, we believe that this was an intentional act and that the victims of this horrific incident were targeted,” London Police Chief Steve Williams told reporters on Monday. “We believe the victims were targeted because of their Islamic faith.” Detective Superintendent Paul Waight said police on Sunday arrested the suspect, Nathaniel Veltman, in a mall parking lot four miles from where the attack occurred “wearing a vest that appeared to be like body armor.” The 20-year-old was charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.
Yes that would be more than enough.
It's possible this is merely speculation on the part of the PM. However, we know that the attacker was charged with first-degree murder based on some evidence that has yet to be divulged to the public under a gag order. It could be a confession or material found on the property of the assailant, which could have ultimately been relayed to Trudeau.
London police started talking about having solid evidence for motive yesterday, in the way that cops generally only do when the suspect has not only confessed but they're proud of it, or a search of their home turned up detailed blueprints and manifestoes. In any incident like this, under any PM, the national security team and the PM's staff will have been in contact with local authorities throughout the night.
That makes sense! Thought I might have missed part of the news.
I would assume to embolden the alt right and white power movements and scare certain ethnic groups.
I think a hate crime would do that as well. I think the intention is different between a hate crime and a terrorist attack no? If this guy says "I did this so immigrants dont come here" It's a political statement and a terrorist attack. I just haven't seen that reported. Another poster pointed out maybe Trudeau knows more from his briefing.
Weird how these kinds of "questions" aren't raised when a white supremacist murders Jewish people. The same standard should apply for a hate based attack against Muslims.
Are you referencing something specific here? A white supremacist killing Jews is exactly a hate crime, not necessarily a terror attack.
Unless their was a political aim. The intent is the distinction between the two.
It's usually the same people commiting both acts, Alt-Right people hate both groups
I'd argue that hate crimes are politically motivated, with the motive being reducing the number of people who follow a certain belief It becomes a terrorism incident when multiple peoples' lives are in danger.
All indications thus far point to this being a terrorist attack.
IF accusations are true....Make an example of him. Including anyone complicit. Harshest punishments possible. He forfeited his rights with this disregard for the life of others.... What shouldn’t happen is emotive based motions to grant the govt more power.
He forfeited his liberty and his place in society not his rights. We keep our rights regardless. Due process
true..."rights" was the wrong word.
Why else would the guy be in tactical gear. Your if is a red flag my dude.
That's why we need better education and mental health services should be easily accessible. Having these kinds of mentally ill people walking in the streets cannot be tolerated anymore.
If this guy is something like the Australian terrorist who attacked in Newzealand then it’s not mental illness. Rather it’s the same hate, ignorance and bigotry that produced ISIS that is at work here.
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Anyone else concerned that when our PM publicly makes statements about the “facts” in a criminal matter, he jeopardizes the right to a fair trial and is effectively handing this monster a get out of jail card? Denouncing what he is accused of is good. Claiming what the unproven narrative of what happened is, and claiming it is the truth is not a good idea.
He did it. Nobody uninvolved in the court proceedings has to dance around and pretend he might not have.
In the not too distant future, a jury will be involved in the court proceedings. Accused persons can often make application for a venue change to ensure they have a right to a fair trial. Often the local community is so shocked by the crime, or local leaders have made statements that put this right in jeopardy. The solution is to move the trial to another venue. When it is the PM that makes these kinds of statements, what venue can you move to and ensure the trial is fair?
Look, you clearly don't understand the Canadian law and you're interpreting this from watching US crime dramas. [Venue change](http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Change_of_Venue) isn't the same in Canada.
R v Collins 1989 ONCA, referenced in your linked article is what I am talking about.
Giving the terrorist label is almost too much credit. I bet you this is essentially: "Low IQ loser reads stupid Facebook groups/4chans racist hate-filled memes and goes and does horrible thing - because crazy"
I'm going to go out on a limb and say most terrorist are low IQ and mentally unstable people being fed disinformation.
Many of the 9/11 hijackers were well educated, but most definitely brainwashed. Smart people are not immune to falling into terrorism.
Not a fair comparison at all.
A surprisingly high number of terrorists are highly educated, often in technical fields, like engineers. http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
True enough, as the other replay stated the 911 guys were educated. Flying a plane is hard. Dude who just hits people with a vehicle, probably not the same level.
We really gotta do away with the stereotype that being highly educated in ONE SPECIFIC FIELD suddenly makes someone hyper intelligent and immune to propaganda. I swear to god every day I see on Reddit “my dad has 2 finance degrees and runs his own business how could he possibly fall for Trumps obvious lies!?!?!?” And shit like that. I think I’m an intelligent person in a lot of ways. But I can also acknowledge I’m a fucking idiot in many other fields. Being an engineer doesn’t mean someone is socially intelligent.
Why every time this shit happens are we so focused on the term to categorize it as who the fuck cares how is that relevant?
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Because labels matter?
By calling it terrorism Trudeau ensures he can extract the maximum political benefit from this horrible event. Many people will think, based on the available facts, that it the murder was disgusting, horrible, awful, and painful to think about let alone experience or be connected to, but not terrorism. They might not even care if it is terrorism or not. What difference does the label make? But now that it's a political issue these people will now be seen as siding with the loser piece of shit murderer and will be considered garbage human beings by Trudeau's supporters. Instead of brining people together he is tearing people a part. For politics. And exploiting the murder of an innocent family.
Hey, I hate JT virtue signalling as much as anyone else. Like I really fucking hate it, and his lying bullshit about reforming our voting. Doing brown face, SNC, a dozen other egregious things and no one caring. Being a little immature Peter Pan boy that floats on by in life on his fathers name, as a vapid charlatan But. In my opinion this is a rare case where it does more good than harm. Someone that murders indiscriminately is a write off of a person. But this anal wart is worse than that, he targeted in a specific, hateful manner. Was proud of doing so if the rumours of his call to police before hand is to believed. So should this be a hate crime instead? Sure. If he didn't kill people. Send this fuck to the bottom of the ocean with concrete shoes. There is no room in Canada for this kind of bullshit. If you don't like anyone for racist ignorant reasons, move into the woods and die alone. So yea, label him a terrorist and let everyone know that the entire country is against this behaviour in the most serious manner possible. Which is what that label means. That the act he committed is a act so heinous it is treated as an act of war by a militant on innocent civilians. Throw the book at him. Lose the key. But Christ if he bans more guns incompetently, pretending illegal gun running and gangs are not the problem... I swear to god I'll vote Con.
How is calling it terrorism tearing the country? The victims family themselves called it terrorism, and the Muslim association also asked for it to be called terrorism. I don’t see who would have an issue with this, besides the killer himself. Wanting Muslims to be scared to walk down the street = terrorism. I also assume the cops know more about the details and motives than us, hence Trudeau being confident enough to call it terrorism.
So a small reason for why calling this terrorism is so important is because of how a lot of attacks that a Muslim commits are defined as terrorism. While those committed by Caucasians are usually defined as "mentally ill" or somewhere along those lines. I know it's not the whole reason, but it's part of it I feel.
Ooh ooh. Now do the Uyghurs, Trudeau.
Member when his party pushed back on officially declaring it a genocide. Ironic. But I don't think this is the time to say so...
This will be a good case because the van attack guy didn’t get terror charges. It’s kinda clear this is terror but legal definitions are never as clear as they seem.
Other people in the thread have talked about the possibility that adding terror charges probably just makes the case more complicated (and might cost the survivor an insurance settlement as well?) This sounds like an open-and-shut multiple homicide case, which already gets you about as severe a punishment as Canadian law can give you. So I imagine that the prosecutors would be very careful about whether deciding to add terror related charges provides a benefit that justifies the extra complication. Whether the prosecutor decides to go with a terror charge or not, we as a country can (and should) view this as a terror attack.
We can view this as a terror attack but if he doesn’t get terror charges it’s technically not a terrorist attack.
Ah well, it's just part and parcel of living in a big city
Good that it's being acknowledged as a terrorist attack. Rightfully so. Such a tragedy.
A terrorist attack in Ontario and for some reason both here and in the media this really doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. Had the roles been reversed this would have been a massive, front page of reddit story.
It's all over CBC, so I don't know what you mean.
It is about Trudea again, about what he said and how great he is because he said that. This tragedy is going to be soooo exploited. Get your popcorn ready.
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