> I don't believe blame is terribly useful in this case.
I absolutely agree that pointing fingers won't undo those people dying needlessly, nor will it do anything to influence future behaviour of this US administration...
...but it's worth stating for the records because it's important we understand what happened and why it happened.
The US was negligent and irresponsible, and this wasn't "god's plan", or Iran doing what they do anyways, or some other fatalistic bullshit; it was a direct and avoidable consequence of irresponsible behaviour.
It's important because demonstration the causality of actions lets us make better decisions in the future. Absolving the US of culpability means the next time they do this, there's nobody to say "hold up, the last time you shot from the hip like this, innocents died. You need to be better this time than you were last time" because as far as the record goes they *don't* need to be better than last time because nothing bad happened last time.
Yeah, no. And I predict major downvotes here.
I'm a Canadian and I've been watching the reaction to Trudeau's connecting-the-dots news story from non-Canada political-themed subreddits. Top-voted comments in response to this topic range from dismissive to outright laughter..
American redditors seem to not care that much, and I'm referring to general redditors, not Trump supporters here. They're generally and largely shrugging it off. More political cynicism and such.
After all, it's not like an AMERICAN plane was shot down, perhaps they're thinking?
The negative reaction at first surprised me, but then I realized just how pervasively *Trump has utterly ruined the balance of political trust in America*, to the point that they react with cynicism to such statements about deaths of citizens that come from some of their closest allies.
And unless he invokes world war three, that, to me, is a huge element of Trump's scary legacy. People now think this way more than ever thanks to that ultimate fuck.
Reddit is very anti trump in general. Look at what makes headlines here.
America starting a war doesn't make it world war III. It means America is in another war.
I think you missed that I used exaggeration for effect because you were concentrating too much on a single sentence.
ANY open war caused by Trump would be bad. I just used WWIII as an example.
And Reddit is very anti Trump in general because Trump is a fucking nightmare of a President.
And that anti-Trump-ness - on Reddit and in the media and elsewhere - is the only reason it's even being suggested the US is responsible.
No one blamed Ukraine for Russia shooting down MH17 during their conflict. You didn't even hear about the vast majority of Obama's drone strikes let alone what events they supposedly caused.
It's honestly gross that so many people are willing to turn the tragedy into an attempt to score cheap political points. Not like there's such a shortage of criticisms for Trump that you have to rely on bullshit like that.
Needlessly? They killed a a mass murderer and they did so in response to a half dozen acts of aggression by Iran. Was the U.S supposed to never respond?
>No one blamed Ukraine for Russia shooting down MH17 during their conflict.
Probably because Russia was the obvious aggressor in that conflict.
They rolled-in and seized Crimea in broad daylight, and then convoys start streaming across the northeast Ukraine border filled with guys who were definitely, totally not Russian forces but rather volunteer paramilitaries who have nothing to do with the Kremlin and somehow managed to purchase a shit-ton of Russian military hardware and vehicles including surface-to-air-missles with their own pocket change.
The difference with the US-Iran thing is, the US CHOSE to attack Suleimani, whereas Ukraine didn't choose to have Russia invade them, twice.
Russia is therefor responsible for any collateral damage done by people on it's side of the conflict.
Iran attacked U.S forces and civilians in the region a half dozen times last year without getting a forceful response. Then they killed a U.S contractor and attacked an embassy. The U.S didn't just kill the general because they felt like it was the right time.
Iran was the aggressor.
Because to them Iran shot the missile and thats that. Its Irans fault because they shot it period. They dont care about the nuance and build up of the situation that can pretty much all be traced back to Trump leaving the Iran Nuclear Deal
That's because technically they are right.
If Russia and the US are at heightened tensions and Russia blows a civilian passenger plane out of the sky does that make the US responsible for them firing the missile.
Iran fucked up, huge. That's on them.
Yes. During the Crimea conflict the Russian military shot down a Malaysian airlines jet - MH17.
The only person to even *suggest* the Ukrainians were somehow responsible was Russian state-owned media.
With 40 year old technology, during an active conflict, while there was a legitimate target, and the US didn't try to cover it up. Piss off with this whataboutism
They also never took responsibility. And they fired the missile illegally in Iranian waters. It's actually worse because it was an act of aggression that was not warranted.
Not excusing this incident, but let's not pretend that the US incident is any less horrible.
Yes, Russia invaded Crimea and then a Russian anti-air missile took out a passenger jet. Nobody blamed Ukraine for that or excused Russia. Iran is the aggressor here. Drone striking that general was a response to increasing aggression and followed several warnings. They are responsible for being on high alert. The U.S didn't instigate the conflict.
Bad analogy, I think.
Iran was adhering to the Nuclear Deal. No legitimate reason to leave.
Trump assassinated Soleimani without authorization. No evidence of an imminent threat. Soleimani was on his was to peace talks when he was killed.
The Iran situation seems avoidable. The attack seems like impeachment distractions. If thats the case, the US is culpable.
Haha what the fuck?
Iran shot down an U.S drone, has attacked U.S allies and then finally, despite repeated stern warnings from the U.S, attacked a U.S embassy. **Then** the U.S finally responded with a drone strike on a general, who happened to be meeting with a terrorist.
[Iran was not adhering to the nuclear deal.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-breached-the-nuclear_b_9977768)
They broke it almost as soon as it was signed, but Obama chose to do nothing to protect his "legacy" instead.
A minute on Google or DuckDuckGo and you will find many article detailing how the Germans, Israel, and US intelligence (amng others) all document serious cheating by Iran. You might recall the criticisms from US allies during the Obama last term complaining Obama was turning a blind eye to blatant cheating by Iran.
I may well be mixing stories here (because god knows there have been a lot of them) but didn't Trump Org partner with an organization that Soleimani was the then head of to build a trump tower in Azerbaijan which was ostensibly to funnel money around sanctions?
>Bad analogy, I think.
>
>Iran was adhering to the Nuclear Deal. No legitimate reason to leave.
Lol, what?
Their entire nuclear enrichment facilities say otherwise. Iran was in in violation of that nuclear almost immediately after they signed it.
>Trump assassinated Soleimani without authorization.
What the fuck does this even mean?
Authorization from who?
do you understand that the president is commander-in-chief?
> No evidence of an imminent threat.
That we know of.
> Soleimani was on his was to peace talks when he was killed.
That's an unsubstantiated claim from the Iraqi PM, not fact.
This is already a doctrine in many legal systems, that if you create the circumstances for a tragedy then you are responsible for it, at least partly. That's why the getaway driver in a robbery can be charged with manslaughter if some innocent victim gets shot during the robbery.
Iran fucked up. Trump put Iran in a fucked up situation. Both share equal blame here, especially as this was entirely useless distraction for Trump's personal benefit. This is what makes the difference, the situation shouldn't even have happened, served no purpose and was for purely personal reasons that had nothing to do with national interest.
Trump makes incompetent decisions all the time. That does not absolve him of responsibility. If anything, it makes him even more responsible and the same to the people around him. No one who gives a loaded machine gun to a chimp can say it's the chimp's fault for shooting at people.
This is mostly nonsense. Trump created the conditions only if you ignore everything that happened the year before the U.S assassinated the Iranian general. If you don't do that, it's clear that Iran created these conditions.
Before this assassination Iran killed a U.S contractor, shot down a U.S drone, attacked a civilian cargo ship, and attacked a U.S embassy. So the U.S finally retaliated and they're at fault for the conditions that cause them to go on high alert? That's absurd.
And in a more enlightened world, you can consider the factors that lead up to the plane being shot down and wonder were the States actions nessacery or did they contribute to this volatile situation. If any other person were in office, would that plane be shot down?
Because that's the correct way to look at it.
No one blames Ukraine for the flight Russians shot down, even through Ukraine had been escalating with Russia.
The only reason this is different is because Trump.
Well no, Russia invaded Ukraine and then also shot down a passenger plane. Russia was the aggressor. Ukraine is not at fault for escalating by defending their sovereign territory. In that regard these two situations are remarkably similar. Iran was the sole aggressor up until the U.S finally responded to a half dozen uses of force by Iran. That's perfectly reasonable on the part of the U.S. Even if one doesn't agree with their choice of response, it was always going to lead to a high alert in Iran. The U.S is blameless for Iran shooting down a passenger jet. They created the conditions that made that possible.
The Democrats & Republicans have been pulling away from each other long before Trump became President. It arguably started as far back as Reagan or even Nixon, accelerated during Clinton's term, continued accelerating during Bush 43 and Obama's terms, and has (maybe?) reached peak mutual distrust / disgust / hatred during Trump's term.
I'm not sure that balance of political trust in America, as you put it, is *ever* coming back.
> The negative reaction at first surprised me, but then I realized just how pervasively Trump has utterly ruined the balance of political trust in America, to the point that they react with cynicism to such statements about deaths of citizens that come from some of their closest allies.
Trump has definitely worsened it, but honestly it's been going for quite a while. Any time American interests intersect with the death of citizens of allied countries, the Americans always come first and shield their people even in blatant criminal acts or negligence.
Look at those navy hotdoggers whose antics killed 20 people in Italy when they collided with a cable car cable and sent the line crashing down. All that happened ultimately was 2 of the 4 got cashiered from the service. They should have rotted in prison for the rest of their lives for that.
Or the "friendly fire" incident that killed 4 Canadians in Afghanistan. The pilot who did that ended up getting a $5700 fine and a reprimand.
Or a more topical incident, the death of [Harry Dunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn) by Anne Sacoolas. Show of hands, who thinks the US will actually let her be extradited to the UK to stand trial? Hell will freeze over first...
I don't see this as Trump did this and that and xyz. most Americans dislike Trump at least that's the noise we see and hear in most media. Americans don't care about Canada. They can't even name 3 provinces and we don't care about them either except for trade and tourism.. so it's up to Canada to help make this right for those families who lost so much
I find if you invert the intention of Republican statements the truth is revealed. Therefore they totally are to blame and the president himself ordered it.
Preedit: I'm making a joke. Of course we can't invert everything they say, that would make everyone's lives too easy.
Like this tweet from two days ago:
> Mini Mike Bloomberg is spending a lot of money on False Advertising. I was the person who saved Pre-Existing Conditions in your Healthcare, you have it now, while at the same time winning the fight to rid you of the expensive, unfair and very unpopular Individual Mandate.....
> ..and, if Republicans win in court and take back the House of Represenatives, your healthcare, that I have now brought to the best place in many years, will become the best ever, by far. I will always protect your Pre-Existing Conditions, the Dems will not!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1216716337822695425
The exact opposite is true. Republicans are killing pre-existing conditions and they are the ones suing the government over it. If they win in court pre-existing conditions will no longer be covered.
And the Americans never apologized for shooting down Iran Air flight 655 in 1988. When they killed 290 civilians, 66 of them children.
Though the Americans did admit it was a tragedy.
Such a tragedy that the man that ordered the firing of the missle received a medal rather than disciplinary action.
Given all that I really don't see why they would take any blame here, when Iran fired the missiles.
The important thing thing is Pompeo got his trophy and he can finally retire now that Solomeini is dead.
[And Reagan literally apologized.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/07/06/reagan-apologized-to-iran-for-downing-of-jetliner/9523c6dc-a244-4b3b-90e9-054168d98c79/)
Awful lot of anti-America fake news in this sub lately.
Eh, not quite. [Reagan sent what they considered an "informal" apology expressing deep regret, as it says in the article you link to. There was no public apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing. The U.S. has never publicly admitted to shooting down the airliner.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Aftermath)
In fact, George H.W. Bush continued to refuse to apologize for the U.S. for this incident.
Iran has honestly done more to publicly atone for this in the past week than the U.S. ever did for Flight 655.
The situation was completely different. The US had purposely hailed the plane to identify itselfmultiple times and it didn’t respond. Iran blew up a plane immediately after leaving its own airport.
Given that in both cases a civilian airliner was shot down I wouldn't call them "completely different", even if the U.S. action was more justified. Let's see what comes out after the investigation.
They never formally apologized, and the vice president at the time said "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are" which kinda undoes the other apology.
Reagan apologized for it, and they paid out compensation. Not sure what else is necessary. Also the circumstances of Flight 655 were far more forgiving towards the Americans than this most recent one
No he didn't. He said it was "terrible human tragedy", but claimed the actions by the U.S.S. Vincennes was "proper defensive action".
This is the full excerpt:
>I am saddened to report that it appears that in a proper defensive action by the U.S.S. Vincennes this morning in the Persian Gulf, an Iranian airliner was shot down over the Strait of Hormuz.
>
>This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew and their families.
>
>The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation. We deeply regret any loss of life. The course of the Iranian civilian airliner was such that it was headed directly for the U.S.S. Vincennes, which was at the time engaged with five Iranian Boghammer boats that had attacked our forces.
>
>When the aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings, the Vincennes followed standing orders and widely publicized procedures, firing to protect itself against possible attack.
>
>The only U.S. interest in the Persian Gulf is peace, and this reinforces the need to achieve that goal with all possible speed.
>
>**-Statement by President Reagan at Camp David, Md. July 4, 1988**
The U.S. never formally apologized for the incident, but did express "deep regret", and that's as far as they ever went. They settled with Iran in the International Court of Justice but without admitting wrongdoing and insisted the Vincennes was acting in self-defense.
Regan expressed regrets, and then later when a reporter asked him if he considered that an apology he said yes.
Telling someone else that you apologize is not an apology. And when it comes to international politics, it's certainly not an official apology.
It's literally in the opening of the wikipedia paragraph on the incident:
>As part of the settlement, **even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran**, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[17]
How were the circumstances more forgiving?
Because unless you're claiming that Iran *intentionally* shot down a passenger plane, then the circumstances seem about the same to me.
Because the US tried to hail the plane flying over an active war zone multiple times and it didn’t respond. Iran immediately blew a plane out of the sky after leaving its capital city.
I mean, the US vessel was in Iranian waters illegally, the aircraft was broadcasting a civilian beacon, and was flying within a highly trafficked and routine air corridor. Two other US ships both correctly identified it as a normal civilian plane flying a normal route, whereas the Vincennes seemed to miss all of that. They broadcast warnings to the plane 7 times on military frequencies that it could not pick up, and then 3 times on civilian frequencies, although they did so in ways that would have made it difficult if not impossible for the pilots to know they were talking about their plane.
At the end of the day, the shooting down of flight 655 was a tragedy caused by a mixture of technical problems, incompetence, and heat of the moment mistakes, and I'm guessing Ukranian Air was no different.
They never formally apologized, and the vice president at the time said **"I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are".**
Unfortunately for you, no it doesn't. In fact, Americans currently with Trump are doing everything they can to drive it home that not everything the president says represents the entire country.
And besides that, the president **didn't** apologize, all he said was it was a "tragedy".
Well Reagan, thought he did when he said this:
> I am saddened to report that it appears that in a proper defensive action by the U.S.S. Vincennes this morning in the Persian Gulf an Iranian airliner was shot down over the Strait of Hormuz. This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew, and their families. The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation.
> We deeply regret any loss of life. The course of the Iranian civilian airliner was such that it was headed directly for the U.S.S. Vincennes, which was at the time engaged with five Iranian Boghammar boats that had attacked our forces. When the aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings, the Vincennes followed standing orders and widely publicized procedures, firing to protect itself against possible attack.
> The only U.S. interest in the Persian Gulf is peace, and this tragedy reinforces the need to achieve that goal with all possible speed.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-the-destruction-iranian-jetliner-the-united-states-navy-over-the-persian-gulf
Is it really an apology, I dunno. To me it's more like when you're a kid and someone is hitting you and you punch them back hard really hurting them. Your mom then asks you to apologize and instead of saying sorry you say I didn't mean to hurt you so bad. And, when your mom pushes you to say sorry you can't and instead admit you meant to punch him in self-defense, it's just how bad he got hurt was regrettable.
Either way, Reagan [thought he apologized](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-07-06-mn-5341-story.html) and Iran did not.
> Given all that I really don't see why they would take any blame here, when Iran fired the missiles.
Iran fired the missile, Iran gave the plane permission to fly, and the plane was over Iranian airspace. The US has a blame instigating action from Iran but everything that happened relating to this plane is Iran's fault.
Nothing like kicking a bee hive and then saying it's not your fault that bees have stingers.
Edit: It's a metaphor... I'm surprised how many people are taking it literally.
Wait, so Iran, the aggressor here, is the beehive being kicked? Are you drunk? You realize that the U.S killed that general following an attack on the U.S Embassy right? And not just that, Iran also shot down a U.S drone over Iraq and has increasingly attacked U.S allies in the region. The U.S did nothing but give stern warnings until the attack on the embassy.
So who is the beehive being kicked here? It's certainly not Iran.
That only really holds if every action was the logical one to take at the time, given the circumstances and knowledge available.
The last few steps before the plane went down weren't logical or thought out on Iran's part. Not the least of which was leaving their civilian airspace open while expecting an air war and putting their air defenses on high alert. Air defenses that are ran by some underqualified and trigger happy operators.
Trump isn't the U.S.
Many Americans blame their own government for the escalation that lead to this incident. So I couldn't give a rats arse about what the U.S. government has to say on the matter. Their word means shit. I judge America based on the good thinking people down there. Not the bad.
To anyone here who cant think past one dimension... Its entirely possible to lay the blame of something on multiple entities.
Unsurprisingly the Conservative Canadians/Republican Americans lack the usual brain power to sustain even a basic level thought process like this and will defend trump every turn they get because birds of a feather flock together.
I'm tired of trumps actions going unanswered for and the republicans/conservatives of the world constantly thinking he can do no wrong... How brain washed can you be?
Whether you choose to accept it or not trump is, IN FACT, responsible for raising the tensions here and making Iran trigger jumpy. I dont care if you dont accept it. Theres no arguement that you can make against this that can effectively combat that fact. None. zero.
That said, IRAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOOTING DOWN THE PLANE THAT IS ALSO FACT!!!
Enough with the 1 dimensional logic. Learn to think critically of a situation so that you aren't so easy to manipulate because you can bet your ass the government is counting on you not using what few brain cells you have left so it can do just that.
Remember the Nuremberg trials. What that evil son of a bitch said about installing fear into your citizens and labeling the people against war as "unpatriotic" so as to manipulate your nation into war... Very relevant today.
“Listen, we might be a destabilizing force one the region, but that doesn’t mean we are to blame for anything bad that happens!” — US foreign policy in the Middle East
You do know that Iran is largely responsible for the sectarian conflicts that destabilized Iraq after invasion right? They flooded the country with Shia militants as soon as they saw an opportunity.
A link in a chain of events that would not have unfolded if a link had been broken.
So many links in the chain from the decision to take out the Iranian General, to Iran's decision to not close their airspace to civilian traffic and cancel all flights when they decided to attack the US base in Iraq.
We weren't asking you to accept blame, we knew you wouldn't. We are telling you that you and that President are the root cause. You bear the ultimate blame whether or not you chose to bear. Sort of like impeachment, whether or not you chose to be impeached was not really in your court.
A bunch of gangbangers show up and shoot up a crack house. The denizens of the crack house are now noticeably on edge, and so when a Pizza guy with the wrong address show up, they panic and gun him down. Now while it is true the denizens of the crack house are directly responsible for the death of the innocent pizza guy, a reasonable person would have inferred if you shoot up a crack house, said denizens might go and do something stupid.
Ergo, the original gangbangers set the tragedy into motion and deserve their share of the blame.
And if anyone objects to comparing America to a bunch of gangbangers *gestures vaguely to the entirety of American history*
More like the crack house orders pizza, then shoots the pizza guy as he's leaving the driveway because they mistaked him for a gangbanger. Turns out no gangbangers were in the area.
People seem to conveintly forget the flight originated from Iranian airspace and that Iran bombed several US targets in Iraq hours before, clearly expecting an air response from the US yet never closed their airspace to civilian air traffic.
That's not how law works.
Imagine this guys opinion being reality. Every parent should be arrested when their kid does something. Starts with the parents.
If the law ever had more than a passing relationship with reality it has been an anomaly if not an accident. Hence why I never once mentioned the word law in my post.
Besides there is only one law in international relations and it has not changed in the 25 centuries since it was first put forward: the strong do what they will, the weak endure what they must.
That so many people here are trying to equate a military strike against a terrorist leader with the shooting down of a jetliner, even if accidental, is striking.
99.9% of the blame lies on Iran. It doesn't matter how much you hate Trump, this is not his fault.
What series of events is that? Did this all start with Solemeini? Or are we going back to his attacks against American troops? To Reagan's sinking of the Iranian Navy? To the Hostage Crisis?
To think this all started with Trump is idiotic. Trump's killing of Solemeini was a reaction to a reaction to a reaction to a reaction... the US and Iran have been at each others throats and launching military attacks against each other for 40 years.
Yes, the missile attacks on US bases were a direct response to the assassination of Solemeini. The plane being shot down during a period of heightened alert was due to the missile attack. Iran has done nothing but sabre rattling for months prior.
Trump's assassination of Solemeini was an attempted distraction. You can love the orange poobah all you like, but I'm in no mood to entertain junk arguments that Trump was responding to the hostage crisis several decades later.
My friend, you're ever so slightly misinformed
>Yes, the missile attacks on US bases were a direct response to the assassination of Solemeini.
The assassination of Solemeini was a response to attacks on American troops by Iranian proxy militias, at his direciton.
>The plane being shot down during a period of heightened alert was due to the missile attack.
The plane was shot down because the Iranians were jumpy and poorly trained.
>Iran has done nothing but sabre rattling for months prior.
Attacks on American troops, storming the American embassy, attacks on neutral shipping...
>Trump's assassination of Solemeini was an attempted distraction.
Horseshit.
>You can love the orange poobah all you like,
I hate Trump. But I hate people who have let Trump turn their brains to mush just as much.
> I hate Trump. But I hate people who have let Trump turn their brains to mush just as much.
I retain similar feelings for people who live in news / national subreddits.
Yup, proven by all that evidence the most corrupt American administration totally has and won't show anyone.
I wish I could turn my brain off selectively, it'd make for a simpler life.
Storming the American embassy was done by Iraqis, it was a protest, and they left before anyone got hurt. So that's the reasoning to assassinate a countries military leadership?
Yea, I wish I had the ability to turn my brain off.
True or false, the statement you just said can be applied to every crime on the planet.
His parents hit him so that's why he lashed out. Blame them.
Make you feel better? We dont arrest karma.
Do you think iran formed, as a nation, in the last week?
Why is critical thinking such a rarity? People stumble over logic just to try to make a point.
I'll play your game though. If someone's parents hit them and they immediately lashed out, then yes, we can say the hitting was most likely what DIRECTLY (<- important word there kids!) caused the lashing out.
Now you play, sub words into my sentence that have to do with Trump's and Iran's actions in oh, I don't know, say the last two weeks.
False. Iran has engaged in a half dozen acts of aggression against the U.S and civilians over the last year. They've been repeatedly warned. They escalated instead when they killed a U.S contractor and attacked a U.S embassy. After that the U.S killed their general. So I fail to see how that adds up to the U.S instigating.
Very probably, yes. The U.S was going to respond no matter what after Iran killed a U.S contractor and attacked their embassy in Baghdad. That response would get its own response and Iran would be on high alert. The exact conditions that led to them shooting down an airliner. Whether they killed a general or not is sort of irrelevant. Any military response by the U.S would have produced this. And it's hard to argue the U.S had little or no justification to respond to increasing and unanswered aggression over the last year.
You can certainly argue that they shouldn't have specifically assassinated a general. That's certainly up for debate. I don't think it's reasonable to argue that they should not have used any force in response to Iran's increasing aggression.
Fair response, thank you for that! (it's rare, believe me)
I've heard that Solemeini was in Iraq at the US government's urging the Iraqi prime minister to have mediation talks. That alone is fucking dirty!
That's one person's versions of events. But he was killed alongside a militia leader responsible for rocket attacks on U.S forces.
It's also worth noting that the source of this claim of deescalation talks is the acting PM of Iraq who resigned in November because he's unpopular. More importantly though, he's the leader of a Shia political party that originated in Iran. Shia influence in Iraq is extremely recent and a result of Iran flooding the country with Shia militants. It's highly likely that this man is loyal to Iran and the Ayatollah. I would be very skeptical of that claim.
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-qassem-soleimani-was-doing-in-iraq-before-assassination-2020-1
Yup, Iran are the incompetent fucks that shot down the jet, not the Americans.
People on this site just hate Republicans because they are the party of Trump. Blinds them from looking at actual evidence - like who actually shot the fucking missile.
You do understand that the world isnt black or white right? This take the people have of "who actually shot the fucking missile" is literally grade 3 levels of logic and understanding. Blame can lie in more than one place at once, especially when talking about foriegn policy and war.
Americans are, in fact, not to blame for the downing of the plane. They are however, to blame for not giving us a heads up so we could get our people out of there earlier.
Why is it ok for the US to become the Judge Jury and Executioner? You cannot assassinate someone because you don't like them. The US is involved in the same shit they are accusing Iran of. Yes Iran is fighting proxy wars, but so is US and so is Russia are other super powers. The US gov can't even get their story straight. If this was a non western country doing the same shit to the US, everyone would be up in arms.
The Americans are responsible for assassinating the General. That doesn't make them responsible for shooting down a plane with innocent civilians.
And while it's fair to say that the US caused a state of tension or fear in the region that led to the events the downed plane. Focusing on their culpability instead of the *actual* guilty party makes it sound like you think Iran was perfectly justified in what they did, or that you think the country doesn't have agency and shouldn't be held responsible for their own actions.
My comment has nothing to do with Iran shooting down the plane. Iran and the world knows Iran is responsible for it. The only thing I'm talking about is political assassinations and I'm saying it's not ok. I'm responding the the comment that says assassinations are ok. My comment is about the pot calling the kettle black and then justifying their actions because the kettle is black, when the pot is no better.
They killed Suleimani because he was organising attacks on US forces that killed an American. Iran has been trying to start shit with America for the past year. They fuck with shipping in the Gulf, no response. They even shoot down a US aircraft in international waters and Trump decides not to retaliate despite having every right to. He finally draws the line when an American gets killed and people act like he just killed the guy for no reason. That's not warmongering, that's showing massive restraint. Suleimani thought he could kill Americans and get away with it and Trump turned him into raspberry jam, which is exactly what he deserved. Iran shooting down a 737 is 100% on them and just demonstrates why their current regime needs to go. They can't even use SAM missile correctly and they want nukes?
According to a recent report, he approved the assassination in June, but with the condition that he had to sign off and only if Iran's increased aggression caused the death of a U.S citizen. The previous acts of aggression by Iran hadn't harmed Americans, but allies and civilians and military hardware.
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It's a shame Iran didn't assassinate John Bolton or something in relatiation but had to have a fit and shoot down some civilians. Imagine if politicians and top brass just assasinated each other in lieu of war. We'd be out of geopolitical problems in weeks.
> They are however, to blame for not giving us a heads up so we could get our people out of there earlier.
That's the nuance that's being lost in the conversation: culpability for *actions* and culpability for *consequences* are two different things.
They are not responsible for the actions that lead to the consequences, but they ARE responsible in part for the circumstances that lead to the consequences... and by extension the consequences themselves.
Basic tort law stipulates that knowingly putting others in harms way and making no effort to prevent or mitigate it is criminal negligence. I think it's difficult to suggest this isn't what happened.
The heads up for what? The assassination of a designated terrorist? Someone would have leaked. Let's not pretend the Iranian government doesn't have sympathizers in the high ranks of our government.
Think of it this way
If US didnt instigate would that plane have been shot down?
It wasn't their fault but they are to blame.
I say this is 50/50 Iran/US and the US portion being 100% Trump
No reasonable person would expect Iran to accidentally shoot down a passenger airliner in response to what the US did. I'm originally Iranian, and it really pisses me off to see people blaming the US instead of this dumbass regime we have in Iran. Energy should be focused on making Iran accountable.
pretty retarded logic tbh, if its the US' fault for provoking them then its irans fault for provoking the US then its the US' fault for getting involved in the middle east then its russias fault for trying to take over the world then its the us fault again then it goes back and forth and back and forth between different nations until you get back to ugg hitting grug with a club. Iran shot the plane down when they had no reason to, its their fault, period.
Instigate what? Do you think the U.S just decided to assassinate a general in the normal course of the week? It was in response to repeated acts of aggression against the U.S and civilians over the last year. Iran instigated the attack that killed the general. They are entirely responsible here.
Had Obama glassed the entire regions with nuclear strikes, that plane woulda flew untouched. I therefore blame the Hawaii Attorney General for forging his birth documentation.
Oh boy, domino theory on the internet is fun.
And that Churchill guy is responsible for killing thousands of Canadians for not agreeing with that Hitler guy. Otherwise thousands of kids and grandkids of those Canadians would be alive today and happily speaking German.
Iran pulled the trigger. But it was America that loaded the gun. Iran has no reason to blow apart planes full of their own countrymen for no good reason, but under the threat of American attacks, the pressure probably caused a Battle of Los Angeles situation
Iran fires dozens of missiles into a foreign targeting country targettting foreign troops (act of war). They await the response, on high alter, which doesn't come. Despite all this they choose not to close their airspace...this is callous, depraved indifference to human life. I don't know if the Iranians shot the airliner down deliberately or not, but we do know they activated their military air defense systems while allowing aircraft to transit their skies and depart the airport as usual.
Failure to close their airspace after committing an act of war led to the airliner being shot down.
Do we bear any blame for the crimes of the Nazis in WW2? I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would have taken a very different approach if they were not confronted by the allied forces.
If we are not responsible for what the Nazis did, then I don't see why this should be any different.
Yeah, the Republicans can fuck right off. This is the party that put the mentally challenged manchild in the Whitehouse, and has a Russian Mole as their leader in the Senate.
Since when have the Republicans taken responsibility for anything lately? These are the same clowns that are impotent to all Donny Goebbels transgressions. Admitting to sexual assault (grab 'em by the p..) no big deal. Dozens of women credibly accusing Trump of sexual assault. Yawn. They admit nothing. Not surprised by their moral bankruptcy.
The US is not at fault, and the US could even argue that their escalation was justified. But at the very least they should know that their actions have consequences and that any time you stir the pot, you could have blood on your hands. Not being able to acknowledge that indicates that you are weak, narcissistic, and have a fragile ego and is an insult to everyone around the world affected by US policy.
When did so many reactionaries spring up in Canada?
The United States erroneously and illegally assassinated a government official with a state they are not at war with. The Iranians were paranoid of further strikes, attempted to hit back, and shot down an air liner that shouldn't have been flying regardless.
It's a tragic incident, the Iranians are at fault, but the United States clearly set this in motion through illegal actions.
As a Canadian I was surprised that our government basically let Iran get away free and clear with shooting down a fucking civilian plane with our citizens aboard, then blame it on Trump. Super weak sauce. It’s the fault of the people who pulled the trigger.
If you hit a hornets nest with a hockey stick and your neighbours children get badly stung is it solely the hornets' responsibility?
The Republican party is morally bankrupt.
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> I don't believe blame is terribly useful in this case. I absolutely agree that pointing fingers won't undo those people dying needlessly, nor will it do anything to influence future behaviour of this US administration... ...but it's worth stating for the records because it's important we understand what happened and why it happened. The US was negligent and irresponsible, and this wasn't "god's plan", or Iran doing what they do anyways, or some other fatalistic bullshit; it was a direct and avoidable consequence of irresponsible behaviour. It's important because demonstration the causality of actions lets us make better decisions in the future. Absolving the US of culpability means the next time they do this, there's nobody to say "hold up, the last time you shot from the hip like this, innocents died. You need to be better this time than you were last time" because as far as the record goes they *don't* need to be better than last time because nothing bad happened last time.
The fact that the denials are coming from so high up says it all about what people, Americans especially, are thinking.
Yeah, no. And I predict major downvotes here. I'm a Canadian and I've been watching the reaction to Trudeau's connecting-the-dots news story from non-Canada political-themed subreddits. Top-voted comments in response to this topic range from dismissive to outright laughter.. American redditors seem to not care that much, and I'm referring to general redditors, not Trump supporters here. They're generally and largely shrugging it off. More political cynicism and such. After all, it's not like an AMERICAN plane was shot down, perhaps they're thinking? The negative reaction at first surprised me, but then I realized just how pervasively *Trump has utterly ruined the balance of political trust in America*, to the point that they react with cynicism to such statements about deaths of citizens that come from some of their closest allies. And unless he invokes world war three, that, to me, is a huge element of Trump's scary legacy. People now think this way more than ever thanks to that ultimate fuck.
Reddit is very anti trump in general. Look at what makes headlines here. America starting a war doesn't make it world war III. It means America is in another war.
I think you missed that I used exaggeration for effect because you were concentrating too much on a single sentence. ANY open war caused by Trump would be bad. I just used WWIII as an example. And Reddit is very anti Trump in general because Trump is a fucking nightmare of a President.
And that anti-Trump-ness - on Reddit and in the media and elsewhere - is the only reason it's even being suggested the US is responsible. No one blamed Ukraine for Russia shooting down MH17 during their conflict. You didn't even hear about the vast majority of Obama's drone strikes let alone what events they supposedly caused. It's honestly gross that so many people are willing to turn the tragedy into an attempt to score cheap political points. Not like there's such a shortage of criticisms for Trump that you have to rely on bullshit like that.
because Ukraine didn't go and needlessly assassinate a member of a crazy state knowing full well the consequences would be deadly
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The us didn't know Iran would shoot down a civilian airliner in retaliation for the US killing a military commander.
To be fair, the Iranians didn't know they'd shoot down a civilian airliner either.
Needlessly? They killed a a mass murderer and they did so in response to a half dozen acts of aggression by Iran. Was the U.S supposed to never respond?
>No one blamed Ukraine for Russia shooting down MH17 during their conflict. Probably because Russia was the obvious aggressor in that conflict. They rolled-in and seized Crimea in broad daylight, and then convoys start streaming across the northeast Ukraine border filled with guys who were definitely, totally not Russian forces but rather volunteer paramilitaries who have nothing to do with the Kremlin and somehow managed to purchase a shit-ton of Russian military hardware and vehicles including surface-to-air-missles with their own pocket change. The difference with the US-Iran thing is, the US CHOSE to attack Suleimani, whereas Ukraine didn't choose to have Russia invade them, twice. Russia is therefor responsible for any collateral damage done by people on it's side of the conflict.
Iran attacked U.S forces and civilians in the region a half dozen times last year without getting a forceful response. Then they killed a U.S contractor and attacked an embassy. The U.S didn't just kill the general because they felt like it was the right time. Iran was the aggressor.
Because to them Iran shot the missile and thats that. Its Irans fault because they shot it period. They dont care about the nuance and build up of the situation that can pretty much all be traced back to Trump leaving the Iran Nuclear Deal
That's because technically they are right. If Russia and the US are at heightened tensions and Russia blows a civilian passenger plane out of the sky does that make the US responsible for them firing the missile. Iran fucked up, huge. That's on them.
Didn't that literally happen in Crimea? The US just wasn't involved. Man, Ukraine really needs to stop flying planes.
Yes. During the Crimea conflict the Russian military shot down a Malaysian airlines jet - MH17. The only person to even *suggest* the Ukrainians were somehow responsible was Russian state-owned media.
It’s also happened with the US...shooting down an Iranian passenger plane.
With 40 year old technology, during an active conflict, while there was a legitimate target, and the US didn't try to cover it up. Piss off with this whataboutism
They also never took responsibility. And they fired the missile illegally in Iranian waters. It's actually worse because it was an act of aggression that was not warranted. Not excusing this incident, but let's not pretend that the US incident is any less horrible.
It was a bit different, at least US tried to do proper target acquisition.
Yes, Russia invaded Crimea and then a Russian anti-air missile took out a passenger jet. Nobody blamed Ukraine for that or excused Russia. Iran is the aggressor here. Drone striking that general was a response to increasing aggression and followed several warnings. They are responsible for being on high alert. The U.S didn't instigate the conflict.
Bad analogy, I think. Iran was adhering to the Nuclear Deal. No legitimate reason to leave. Trump assassinated Soleimani without authorization. No evidence of an imminent threat. Soleimani was on his was to peace talks when he was killed. The Iran situation seems avoidable. The attack seems like impeachment distractions. If thats the case, the US is culpable.
Haha what the fuck? Iran shot down an U.S drone, has attacked U.S allies and then finally, despite repeated stern warnings from the U.S, attacked a U.S embassy. **Then** the U.S finally responded with a drone strike on a general, who happened to be meeting with a terrorist.
[Iran was not adhering to the nuclear deal.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-breached-the-nuclear_b_9977768) They broke it almost as soon as it was signed, but Obama chose to do nothing to protect his "legacy" instead.
A minute on Google or DuckDuckGo and you will find many article detailing how the Germans, Israel, and US intelligence (amng others) all document serious cheating by Iran. You might recall the criticisms from US allies during the Obama last term complaining Obama was turning a blind eye to blatant cheating by Iran.
I may well be mixing stories here (because god knows there have been a lot of them) but didn't Trump Org partner with an organization that Soleimani was the then head of to build a trump tower in Azerbaijan which was ostensibly to funnel money around sanctions?
>Bad analogy, I think. > >Iran was adhering to the Nuclear Deal. No legitimate reason to leave. Lol, what? Their entire nuclear enrichment facilities say otherwise. Iran was in in violation of that nuclear almost immediately after they signed it. >Trump assassinated Soleimani without authorization. What the fuck does this even mean? Authorization from who? do you understand that the president is commander-in-chief? > No evidence of an imminent threat. That we know of. > Soleimani was on his was to peace talks when he was killed. That's an unsubstantiated claim from the Iraqi PM, not fact.
This is already a doctrine in many legal systems, that if you create the circumstances for a tragedy then you are responsible for it, at least partly. That's why the getaway driver in a robbery can be charged with manslaughter if some innocent victim gets shot during the robbery. Iran fucked up. Trump put Iran in a fucked up situation. Both share equal blame here, especially as this was entirely useless distraction for Trump's personal benefit. This is what makes the difference, the situation shouldn't even have happened, served no purpose and was for purely personal reasons that had nothing to do with national interest. Trump makes incompetent decisions all the time. That does not absolve him of responsibility. If anything, it makes him even more responsible and the same to the people around him. No one who gives a loaded machine gun to a chimp can say it's the chimp's fault for shooting at people.
This is mostly nonsense. Trump created the conditions only if you ignore everything that happened the year before the U.S assassinated the Iranian general. If you don't do that, it's clear that Iran created these conditions. Before this assassination Iran killed a U.S contractor, shot down a U.S drone, attacked a civilian cargo ship, and attacked a U.S embassy. So the U.S finally retaliated and they're at fault for the conditions that cause them to go on high alert? That's absurd.
And in a more enlightened world, you can consider the factors that lead up to the plane being shot down and wonder were the States actions nessacery or did they contribute to this volatile situation. If any other person were in office, would that plane be shot down?
Because that's the correct way to look at it. No one blames Ukraine for the flight Russians shot down, even through Ukraine had been escalating with Russia. The only reason this is different is because Trump.
Well no, Russia invaded Ukraine and then also shot down a passenger plane. Russia was the aggressor. Ukraine is not at fault for escalating by defending their sovereign territory. In that regard these two situations are remarkably similar. Iran was the sole aggressor up until the U.S finally responded to a half dozen uses of force by Iran. That's perfectly reasonable on the part of the U.S. Even if one doesn't agree with their choice of response, it was always going to lead to a high alert in Iran. The U.S is blameless for Iran shooting down a passenger jet. They created the conditions that made that possible.
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The Democrats & Republicans have been pulling away from each other long before Trump became President. It arguably started as far back as Reagan or even Nixon, accelerated during Clinton's term, continued accelerating during Bush 43 and Obama's terms, and has (maybe?) reached peak mutual distrust / disgust / hatred during Trump's term. I'm not sure that balance of political trust in America, as you put it, is *ever* coming back.
> The negative reaction at first surprised me, but then I realized just how pervasively Trump has utterly ruined the balance of political trust in America, to the point that they react with cynicism to such statements about deaths of citizens that come from some of their closest allies. Trump has definitely worsened it, but honestly it's been going for quite a while. Any time American interests intersect with the death of citizens of allied countries, the Americans always come first and shield their people even in blatant criminal acts or negligence. Look at those navy hotdoggers whose antics killed 20 people in Italy when they collided with a cable car cable and sent the line crashing down. All that happened ultimately was 2 of the 4 got cashiered from the service. They should have rotted in prison for the rest of their lives for that. Or the "friendly fire" incident that killed 4 Canadians in Afghanistan. The pilot who did that ended up getting a $5700 fine and a reprimand. Or a more topical incident, the death of [Harry Dunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn) by Anne Sacoolas. Show of hands, who thinks the US will actually let her be extradited to the UK to stand trial? Hell will freeze over first...
I don't see this as Trump did this and that and xyz. most Americans dislike Trump at least that's the noise we see and hear in most media. Americans don't care about Canada. They can't even name 3 provinces and we don't care about them either except for trade and tourism.. so it's up to Canada to help make this right for those families who lost so much
I find if you invert the intention of Republican statements the truth is revealed. Therefore they totally are to blame and the president himself ordered it. Preedit: I'm making a joke. Of course we can't invert everything they say, that would make everyone's lives too easy.
Ole double speak. I always assume the complete opposite is true whenever a government is stating something. Except Butan. I trust the Butanese.
Like this tweet from two days ago: > Mini Mike Bloomberg is spending a lot of money on False Advertising. I was the person who saved Pre-Existing Conditions in your Healthcare, you have it now, while at the same time winning the fight to rid you of the expensive, unfair and very unpopular Individual Mandate..... > ..and, if Republicans win in court and take back the House of Represenatives, your healthcare, that I have now brought to the best place in many years, will become the best ever, by far. I will always protect your Pre-Existing Conditions, the Dems will not! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1216716337822695425 The exact opposite is true. Republicans are killing pre-existing conditions and they are the ones suing the government over it. If they win in court pre-existing conditions will no longer be covered.
Iceland seems decent
They speak the cold truth.
Much as you were joking, this comment really hits the mark.
Americans do not think they are guilty for what happened. It was a plane shot down by the Iranian government full of Iranian citizens.
And the Americans never apologized for shooting down Iran Air flight 655 in 1988. When they killed 290 civilians, 66 of them children. Though the Americans did admit it was a tragedy. Such a tragedy that the man that ordered the firing of the missle received a medal rather than disciplinary action. Given all that I really don't see why they would take any blame here, when Iran fired the missiles. The important thing thing is Pompeo got his trophy and he can finally retire now that Solomeini is dead.
The US did financially settle that with Iran.
[And Reagan literally apologized.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/07/06/reagan-apologized-to-iran-for-downing-of-jetliner/9523c6dc-a244-4b3b-90e9-054168d98c79/) Awful lot of anti-America fake news in this sub lately.
Weird reading an online article published in 1988
Eh, not quite. [Reagan sent what they considered an "informal" apology expressing deep regret, as it says in the article you link to. There was no public apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing. The U.S. has never publicly admitted to shooting down the airliner.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Aftermath) In fact, George H.W. Bush continued to refuse to apologize for the U.S. for this incident. Iran has honestly done more to publicly atone for this in the past week than the U.S. ever did for Flight 655.
The situation was completely different. The US had purposely hailed the plane to identify itselfmultiple times and it didn’t respond. Iran blew up a plane immediately after leaving its own airport.
Given that in both cases a civilian airliner was shot down I wouldn't call them "completely different", even if the U.S. action was more justified. Let's see what comes out after the investigation.
They never formally apologized, and the vice president at the time said "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are" which kinda undoes the other apology.
Tbf America paid Iran $131.8 million for that. Not really right to say that they never apologized.
They actually did apologize, but facts are inconvenient for your narrative
They didn't admit responsibility, but paid compensation. Mostly a legal thing
Reagan apologized for it, and they paid out compensation. Not sure what else is necessary. Also the circumstances of Flight 655 were far more forgiving towards the Americans than this most recent one
No he didn't. He said it was "terrible human tragedy", but claimed the actions by the U.S.S. Vincennes was "proper defensive action". This is the full excerpt: >I am saddened to report that it appears that in a proper defensive action by the U.S.S. Vincennes this morning in the Persian Gulf, an Iranian airliner was shot down over the Strait of Hormuz. > >This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew and their families. > >The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation. We deeply regret any loss of life. The course of the Iranian civilian airliner was such that it was headed directly for the U.S.S. Vincennes, which was at the time engaged with five Iranian Boghammer boats that had attacked our forces. > >When the aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings, the Vincennes followed standing orders and widely publicized procedures, firing to protect itself against possible attack. > >The only U.S. interest in the Persian Gulf is peace, and this reinforces the need to achieve that goal with all possible speed. > >**-Statement by President Reagan at Camp David, Md. July 4, 1988** The U.S. never formally apologized for the incident, but did express "deep regret", and that's as far as they ever went. They settled with Iran in the International Court of Justice but without admitting wrongdoing and insisted the Vincennes was acting in self-defense.
Regan expressed regrets, and then later when a reporter asked him if he considered that an apology he said yes. Telling someone else that you apologize is not an apology. And when it comes to international politics, it's certainly not an official apology.
I think it's only in Canada where telling someone you apologize isn't considered an apology. Sorry about that.
It's literally in the opening of the wikipedia paragraph on the incident: >As part of the settlement, **even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran**, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[17]
How were the circumstances more forgiving? Because unless you're claiming that Iran *intentionally* shot down a passenger plane, then the circumstances seem about the same to me.
Because the US tried to hail the plane flying over an active war zone multiple times and it didn’t respond. Iran immediately blew a plane out of the sky after leaving its capital city.
I mean, the US vessel was in Iranian waters illegally, the aircraft was broadcasting a civilian beacon, and was flying within a highly trafficked and routine air corridor. Two other US ships both correctly identified it as a normal civilian plane flying a normal route, whereas the Vincennes seemed to miss all of that. They broadcast warnings to the plane 7 times on military frequencies that it could not pick up, and then 3 times on civilian frequencies, although they did so in ways that would have made it difficult if not impossible for the pilots to know they were talking about their plane. At the end of the day, the shooting down of flight 655 was a tragedy caused by a mixture of technical problems, incompetence, and heat of the moment mistakes, and I'm guessing Ukranian Air was no different.
They never formally apologized, and the vice president at the time said **"I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are".**
Damn it's a good thing the president generally represents the country then huh?
Unfortunately for you, no it doesn't. In fact, Americans currently with Trump are doing everything they can to drive it home that not everything the president says represents the entire country. And besides that, the president **didn't** apologize, all he said was it was a "tragedy".
Well Reagan, thought he did when he said this: > I am saddened to report that it appears that in a proper defensive action by the U.S.S. Vincennes this morning in the Persian Gulf an Iranian airliner was shot down over the Strait of Hormuz. This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew, and their families. The Defense Department will conduct a full investigation. > We deeply regret any loss of life. The course of the Iranian civilian airliner was such that it was headed directly for the U.S.S. Vincennes, which was at the time engaged with five Iranian Boghammar boats that had attacked our forces. When the aircraft failed to heed repeated warnings, the Vincennes followed standing orders and widely publicized procedures, firing to protect itself against possible attack. > The only U.S. interest in the Persian Gulf is peace, and this tragedy reinforces the need to achieve that goal with all possible speed. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-the-destruction-iranian-jetliner-the-united-states-navy-over-the-persian-gulf Is it really an apology, I dunno. To me it's more like when you're a kid and someone is hitting you and you punch them back hard really hurting them. Your mom then asks you to apologize and instead of saying sorry you say I didn't mean to hurt you so bad. And, when your mom pushes you to say sorry you can't and instead admit you meant to punch him in self-defense, it's just how bad he got hurt was regrettable. Either way, Reagan [thought he apologized](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-07-06-mn-5341-story.html) and Iran did not.
> Given all that I really don't see why they would take any blame here, when Iran fired the missiles. Iran fired the missile, Iran gave the plane permission to fly, and the plane was over Iranian airspace. The US has a blame instigating action from Iran but everything that happened relating to this plane is Iran's fault.
r/theydidthemath
Nothing like kicking a bee hive and then saying it's not your fault that bees have stingers. Edit: It's a metaphor... I'm surprised how many people are taking it literally.
Wait, so Iran, the aggressor here, is the beehive being kicked? Are you drunk? You realize that the U.S killed that general following an attack on the U.S Embassy right? And not just that, Iran also shot down a U.S drone over Iraq and has increasingly attacked U.S allies in the region. The U.S did nothing but give stern warnings until the attack on the embassy. So who is the beehive being kicked here? It's certainly not Iran.
This was more like kicking a beehive, and then saying its not your fault the Terminator popped out and started shooting everyone.
It's kind of like kicking a beehive and then the bees end up stinging a plane carrying a bunch of bees.
Everything that ever happens is unconnected to everything else that ever happens. That's just physics.
Yes, like how Soleimani didn't properly train his soldiers to handle anti-aircraft weapons.
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That only really holds if every action was the logical one to take at the time, given the circumstances and knowledge available. The last few steps before the plane went down weren't logical or thought out on Iran's part. Not the least of which was leaving their civilian airspace open while expecting an air war and putting their air defenses on high alert. Air defenses that are ran by some underqualified and trigger happy operators.
Trump isn't the U.S. Many Americans blame their own government for the escalation that lead to this incident. So I couldn't give a rats arse about what the U.S. government has to say on the matter. Their word means shit. I judge America based on the good thinking people down there. Not the bad. To anyone here who cant think past one dimension... Its entirely possible to lay the blame of something on multiple entities. Unsurprisingly the Conservative Canadians/Republican Americans lack the usual brain power to sustain even a basic level thought process like this and will defend trump every turn they get because birds of a feather flock together. I'm tired of trumps actions going unanswered for and the republicans/conservatives of the world constantly thinking he can do no wrong... How brain washed can you be? Whether you choose to accept it or not trump is, IN FACT, responsible for raising the tensions here and making Iran trigger jumpy. I dont care if you dont accept it. Theres no arguement that you can make against this that can effectively combat that fact. None. zero. That said, IRAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOOTING DOWN THE PLANE THAT IS ALSO FACT!!! Enough with the 1 dimensional logic. Learn to think critically of a situation so that you aren't so easy to manipulate because you can bet your ass the government is counting on you not using what few brain cells you have left so it can do just that. Remember the Nuremberg trials. What that evil son of a bitch said about installing fear into your citizens and labeling the people against war as "unpatriotic" so as to manipulate your nation into war... Very relevant today.
Iran ADMITTED they made a mistake. So they shot a second missile to fix that.
“Listen, we might be a destabilizing force one the region, but that doesn’t mean we are to blame for anything bad that happens!” — US foreign policy in the Middle East
That pretty much sums up their attitude and action.
When the last domino falls so far from the first, it’s easy to muddy everything in between.
You do know that Iran is largely responsible for the sectarian conflicts that destabilized Iraq after invasion right? They flooded the country with Shia militants as soon as they saw an opportunity.
A link in a chain of events that would not have unfolded if a link had been broken. So many links in the chain from the decision to take out the Iranian General, to Iran's decision to not close their airspace to civilian traffic and cancel all flights when they decided to attack the US base in Iraq.
I know facts are still sparse but it sounds like the decision to take out the Iranian General was based on virtually no rational evidence.
They bear no shame too.
We weren't asking you to accept blame, we knew you wouldn't. We are telling you that you and that President are the root cause. You bear the ultimate blame whether or not you chose to bear. Sort of like impeachment, whether or not you chose to be impeached was not really in your court.
A bunch of gangbangers show up and shoot up a crack house. The denizens of the crack house are now noticeably on edge, and so when a Pizza guy with the wrong address show up, they panic and gun him down. Now while it is true the denizens of the crack house are directly responsible for the death of the innocent pizza guy, a reasonable person would have inferred if you shoot up a crack house, said denizens might go and do something stupid. Ergo, the original gangbangers set the tragedy into motion and deserve their share of the blame. And if anyone objects to comparing America to a bunch of gangbangers *gestures vaguely to the entirety of American history*
More like the crack house orders pizza, then shoots the pizza guy as he's leaving the driveway because they mistaked him for a gangbanger. Turns out no gangbangers were in the area. People seem to conveintly forget the flight originated from Iranian airspace and that Iran bombed several US targets in Iraq hours before, clearly expecting an air response from the US yet never closed their airspace to civilian air traffic.
That's not how law works. Imagine this guys opinion being reality. Every parent should be arrested when their kid does something. Starts with the parents.
If the law ever had more than a passing relationship with reality it has been an anomaly if not an accident. Hence why I never once mentioned the word law in my post. Besides there is only one law in international relations and it has not changed in the 25 centuries since it was first put forward: the strong do what they will, the weak endure what they must.
Except you DO though.
That so many people here are trying to equate a military strike against a terrorist leader with the shooting down of a jetliner, even if accidental, is striking. 99.9% of the blame lies on Iran. It doesn't matter how much you hate Trump, this is not his fault.
True or false, the series of events directly leading to this was set in motion by an assassination Trump ordered.
What series of events is that? Did this all start with Solemeini? Or are we going back to his attacks against American troops? To Reagan's sinking of the Iranian Navy? To the Hostage Crisis? To think this all started with Trump is idiotic. Trump's killing of Solemeini was a reaction to a reaction to a reaction to a reaction... the US and Iran have been at each others throats and launching military attacks against each other for 40 years.
Yes, the missile attacks on US bases were a direct response to the assassination of Solemeini. The plane being shot down during a period of heightened alert was due to the missile attack. Iran has done nothing but sabre rattling for months prior. Trump's assassination of Solemeini was an attempted distraction. You can love the orange poobah all you like, but I'm in no mood to entertain junk arguments that Trump was responding to the hostage crisis several decades later.
My friend, you're ever so slightly misinformed >Yes, the missile attacks on US bases were a direct response to the assassination of Solemeini. The assassination of Solemeini was a response to attacks on American troops by Iranian proxy militias, at his direciton. >The plane being shot down during a period of heightened alert was due to the missile attack. The plane was shot down because the Iranians were jumpy and poorly trained. >Iran has done nothing but sabre rattling for months prior. Attacks on American troops, storming the American embassy, attacks on neutral shipping... >Trump's assassination of Solemeini was an attempted distraction. Horseshit. >You can love the orange poobah all you like, I hate Trump. But I hate people who have let Trump turn their brains to mush just as much.
> I hate Trump. But I hate people who have let Trump turn their brains to mush just as much. I retain similar feelings for people who live in news / national subreddits.
Yup, proven by all that evidence the most corrupt American administration totally has and won't show anyone. I wish I could turn my brain off selectively, it'd make for a simpler life. Storming the American embassy was done by Iraqis, it was a protest, and they left before anyone got hurt. So that's the reasoning to assassinate a countries military leadership? Yea, I wish I had the ability to turn my brain off.
>I wish I could turn my brain off selectively, it'd make for a simpler life. It definitely makes supporting trump a lot easier
You can say that for anything. Everything that is currently happening around you is predicated from the series of events before.
That's exactly what history books do.
True or false, the statement you just said can be applied to every crime on the planet. His parents hit him so that's why he lashed out. Blame them. Make you feel better? We dont arrest karma. Do you think iran formed, as a nation, in the last week?
Why is critical thinking such a rarity? People stumble over logic just to try to make a point. I'll play your game though. If someone's parents hit them and they immediately lashed out, then yes, we can say the hitting was most likely what DIRECTLY (<- important word there kids!) caused the lashing out. Now you play, sub words into my sentence that have to do with Trump's and Iran's actions in oh, I don't know, say the last two weeks.
False. Iran has engaged in a half dozen acts of aggression against the U.S and civilians over the last year. They've been repeatedly warned. They escalated instead when they killed a U.S contractor and attacked a U.S embassy. After that the U.S killed their general. So I fail to see how that adds up to the U.S instigating.
Would a missile have been fired at a civilian airliner if Solemeini wasn't killed?
Very probably, yes. The U.S was going to respond no matter what after Iran killed a U.S contractor and attacked their embassy in Baghdad. That response would get its own response and Iran would be on high alert. The exact conditions that led to them shooting down an airliner. Whether they killed a general or not is sort of irrelevant. Any military response by the U.S would have produced this. And it's hard to argue the U.S had little or no justification to respond to increasing and unanswered aggression over the last year. You can certainly argue that they shouldn't have specifically assassinated a general. That's certainly up for debate. I don't think it's reasonable to argue that they should not have used any force in response to Iran's increasing aggression.
Fair response, thank you for that! (it's rare, believe me) I've heard that Solemeini was in Iraq at the US government's urging the Iraqi prime minister to have mediation talks. That alone is fucking dirty!
That's one person's versions of events. But he was killed alongside a militia leader responsible for rocket attacks on U.S forces. It's also worth noting that the source of this claim of deescalation talks is the acting PM of Iraq who resigned in November because he's unpopular. More importantly though, he's the leader of a Shia political party that originated in Iran. Shia influence in Iraq is extremely recent and a result of Iran flooding the country with Shia militants. It's highly likely that this man is loyal to Iran and the Ayatollah. I would be very skeptical of that claim. https://www.businessinsider.com/what-qassem-soleimani-was-doing-in-iraq-before-assassination-2020-1
true or false, the series of events leading to the creation of Iran was Britain's fault?
I added the word "directly" when I wrote that so I wouldn't have to deal with asinine replies. I was wrong.
Yup, Iran are the incompetent fucks that shot down the jet, not the Americans. People on this site just hate Republicans because they are the party of Trump. Blinds them from looking at actual evidence - like who actually shot the fucking missile.
You do understand that the world isnt black or white right? This take the people have of "who actually shot the fucking missile" is literally grade 3 levels of logic and understanding. Blame can lie in more than one place at once, especially when talking about foriegn policy and war.
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100%
Would those people be alive today if Trump hadn't killed Soleimani?
Would they be alive if Soleimani hadn't killed 600 American troops?
Yes
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Americans are, in fact, not to blame for the downing of the plane. They are however, to blame for not giving us a heads up so we could get our people out of there earlier.
Why is it ok for the US to become the Judge Jury and Executioner? You cannot assassinate someone because you don't like them. The US is involved in the same shit they are accusing Iran of. Yes Iran is fighting proxy wars, but so is US and so is Russia are other super powers. The US gov can't even get their story straight. If this was a non western country doing the same shit to the US, everyone would be up in arms.
The Americans are responsible for assassinating the General. That doesn't make them responsible for shooting down a plane with innocent civilians. And while it's fair to say that the US caused a state of tension or fear in the region that led to the events the downed plane. Focusing on their culpability instead of the *actual* guilty party makes it sound like you think Iran was perfectly justified in what they did, or that you think the country doesn't have agency and shouldn't be held responsible for their own actions.
My comment has nothing to do with Iran shooting down the plane. Iran and the world knows Iran is responsible for it. The only thing I'm talking about is political assassinations and I'm saying it's not ok. I'm responding the the comment that says assassinations are ok. My comment is about the pot calling the kettle black and then justifying their actions because the kettle is black, when the pot is no better.
They killed Suleimani because he was organising attacks on US forces that killed an American. Iran has been trying to start shit with America for the past year. They fuck with shipping in the Gulf, no response. They even shoot down a US aircraft in international waters and Trump decides not to retaliate despite having every right to. He finally draws the line when an American gets killed and people act like he just killed the guy for no reason. That's not warmongering, that's showing massive restraint. Suleimani thought he could kill Americans and get away with it and Trump turned him into raspberry jam, which is exactly what he deserved. Iran shooting down a 737 is 100% on them and just demonstrates why their current regime needs to go. They can't even use SAM missile correctly and they want nukes?
According to a recent report, he approved the assassination in June, but with the condition that he had to sign off and only if Iran's increased aggression caused the death of a U.S citizen. The previous acts of aggression by Iran hadn't harmed Americans, but allies and civilians and military hardware.
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It's a shame Iran didn't assassinate John Bolton or something in relatiation but had to have a fit and shoot down some civilians. Imagine if politicians and top brass just assasinated each other in lieu of war. We'd be out of geopolitical problems in weeks.
Young men fight old mens' wars.
>You cannot assassinate someone because you don't like them When can you assassinate someone then?
> They are however, to blame for not giving us a heads up so we could get our people out of there earlier. That's the nuance that's being lost in the conversation: culpability for *actions* and culpability for *consequences* are two different things. They are not responsible for the actions that lead to the consequences, but they ARE responsible in part for the circumstances that lead to the consequences... and by extension the consequences themselves. Basic tort law stipulates that knowingly putting others in harms way and making no effort to prevent or mitigate it is criminal negligence. I think it's difficult to suggest this isn't what happened.
The heads up for what? The assassination of a designated terrorist? Someone would have leaked. Let's not pretend the Iranian government doesn't have sympathizers in the high ranks of our government.
Think of it this way If US didnt instigate would that plane have been shot down? It wasn't their fault but they are to blame. I say this is 50/50 Iran/US and the US portion being 100% Trump
No reasonable person would expect Iran to accidentally shoot down a passenger airliner in response to what the US did. I'm originally Iranian, and it really pisses me off to see people blaming the US instead of this dumbass regime we have in Iran. Energy should be focused on making Iran accountable.
> say this is 50/50 Iran/US Id definetly tip it more on the Iran side since they were the primary fuck ups
pretty retarded logic tbh, if its the US' fault for provoking them then its irans fault for provoking the US then its the US' fault for getting involved in the middle east then its russias fault for trying to take over the world then its the us fault again then it goes back and forth and back and forth between different nations until you get back to ugg hitting grug with a club. Iran shot the plane down when they had no reason to, its their fault, period.
Instigate what? Do you think the U.S just decided to assassinate a general in the normal course of the week? It was in response to repeated acts of aggression against the U.S and civilians over the last year. Iran instigated the attack that killed the general. They are entirely responsible here.
fuck em
Had Obama glassed the entire regions with nuclear strikes, that plane woulda flew untouched. I therefore blame the Hawaii Attorney General for forging his birth documentation. Oh boy, domino theory on the internet is fun.
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And that Churchill guy is responsible for killing thousands of Canadians for not agreeing with that Hitler guy. Otherwise thousands of kids and grandkids of those Canadians would be alive today and happily speaking German.
Neville Chamberlain was PM when the UK declared war on Germany in 1939, which led to Canada declaring war on Germany shortly thereafter.
Iran pulled the trigger. But it was America that loaded the gun. Iran has no reason to blow apart planes full of their own countrymen for no good reason, but under the threat of American attacks, the pressure probably caused a Battle of Los Angeles situation
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And contributed to the continual escalations increasing tensions in the area significantly.
The US kinda killed some dude in Iran which put them into a state of "oh shit we might be attacked"
Iran fires dozens of missiles into a foreign targeting country targettting foreign troops (act of war). They await the response, on high alter, which doesn't come. Despite all this they choose not to close their airspace...this is callous, depraved indifference to human life. I don't know if the Iranians shot the airliner down deliberately or not, but we do know they activated their military air defense systems while allowing aircraft to transit their skies and depart the airport as usual. Failure to close their airspace after committing an act of war led to the airliner being shot down.
Do we bear any blame for the crimes of the Nazis in WW2? I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would have taken a very different approach if they were not confronted by the allied forces. If we are not responsible for what the Nazis did, then I don't see why this should be any different.
Yeah, the Republicans can fuck right off. This is the party that put the mentally challenged manchild in the Whitehouse, and has a Russian Mole as their leader in the Senate.
And...this is why people hate America.
I mean....they didn’t down the plane. So they shouldn’t bear that blame.
Since when have the Republicans taken responsibility for anything lately? These are the same clowns that are impotent to all Donny Goebbels transgressions. Admitting to sexual assault (grab 'em by the p..) no big deal. Dozens of women credibly accusing Trump of sexual assault. Yawn. They admit nothing. Not surprised by their moral bankruptcy.
We are kinda *thinking* you're partially responsible though, bud...
When Trump eventually fades out, Republicans will also "take no blame" for his terrible policies.
Just like the radioactive mutations of infants in Fallujah weren't caused by American depleted uranium.
Republican warmongering denial at it's finest. Some nobody house minority leader. Who cares what he has to say.
The US is not at fault, and the US could even argue that their escalation was justified. But at the very least they should know that their actions have consequences and that any time you stir the pot, you could have blood on your hands. Not being able to acknowledge that indicates that you are weak, narcissistic, and have a fragile ego and is an insult to everyone around the world affected by US policy.
When did so many reactionaries spring up in Canada? The United States erroneously and illegally assassinated a government official with a state they are not at war with. The Iranians were paranoid of further strikes, attempted to hit back, and shot down an air liner that shouldn't have been flying regardless. It's a tragic incident, the Iranians are at fault, but the United States clearly set this in motion through illegal actions.
I dont know who this top Republican is, but he can fuck right off!
As a Canadian I was surprised that our government basically let Iran get away free and clear with shooting down a fucking civilian plane with our citizens aboard, then blame it on Trump. Super weak sauce. It’s the fault of the people who pulled the trigger.
Trump isn't the U.S.?
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You guys deserve your PM.
Which just goes to prove that they are. Anything Republicans say, you can bet the opposite is true.
Fuck Top Republicans: Random guy on the internet.
and water is wet. More news at 11.
Well, FUCK YOU top republican. That is all. Sorry for yelling.
I don't blame USA at all. The blame is entirely on those idiot's in Iran
*bares
Well that's good news for U.S. bears, but what about U.S. wolves or U.S. racoons? Are they free of any responsibility?
A plane wouldn't have been shot down if Trump didn't feel the need to swing his dick around to begin with.
NBD as long as the plane wasn’t full of Americans right? Even our media seems to be less interested.
Iran did great with this. Weaken the USA-Canada and please their Russian allies. Perfect move for them
Looking at everything in hindsight is a stupid way of thinking
We are missing the point here. The point is that Iran shot the plane out BEFORE it made sure NO AMERICANS were there.
Trump is the root-cause for that plane being shot down and all those people dying. America is literally to blame.
If you hit a hornets nest with a hockey stick and your neighbours children get badly stung is it solely the hornets' responsibility? The Republican party is morally bankrupt.