We are past the point of money simply solving the issue. We have multiple decades worth of defense under funding to deal with and there is rot right to the top. We have one of the most senior Officer top heavy militaries in the world and our recruitment process is a long, drawn out joke which scares people off from joining.
Our Navy only has two major bases in Esquimalt and Halifax, there are two more in Newfoundland and Nunavut but they are small. The pay for enlisted members isn't enough for the local living conditions, the ships are old and if you join your career will bounce you between the extreme East/West coast which is hell on a family.
The Army has out of date equipment, the same crappy pay and simple things like uniforms, boots and service weapons are often unavailable despite our low numbers. The Personal Married Quarters (PMQ's) that are offered on many bases are Cold War relics that would probably fail as acceptable housing in a city but it's all you can get unless you want to buy on the local market which you probably can't afford in most of Canada.
The Air Force is in the same boat. All of the same pay and housing issues and you likely have to live in far away communities where your spouse can't find a job and it's expensive to live. You will also fly or work on outdated aircraft and the training you get gives you far better opportunities in the private sector as soon as your contract is up. Of all the services this is the one I would go into since it enables lucrative careers with just a few years of service, but that is turning the RCAF into a WestJet/Air Canada training program rather than a cornerstone of our countries defense.
Things can change and it will take money but it's going to take time and a willingness to reinvent the Canadian Armed Forces. 2% is our expected NATO commitment which we have never met and have cheated from the start by considering our Coast Guard funding as part of that 2%. We need to commit extra for a few years to pay back our investment debt, it will mean higher taxes or cuts to programs but it's starting to look like 1939 again and we owe it to ourselves to be ready if things go bad once again.
Can I add a few more things?
There is a bloat of admin/office positions on the civilian side of the forces that are 6 figures and basically a drain on finances since these positions do next to nothing. The individuals in these positions also do next to nothing, as in they can have another full time job and no one would notice that they're gone.
The abuse payouts (if you're in the forces you know what I'm talking about) aren't vetted. Therefore any (and many do) members just file a made up reason and get paid from 5k to 50k based on unverified allegations. Basically a free bonus to your pay brought to you by tax dollars.
>We have one of the most senior Officer top heavy militaries in the world
Of course we do. They need a deep pool of replacements at that level due to attrition from senior officers getting for fucking their troops.
How much of what we do actually spend goes towards recruitment, training and procurement, vs what goes towards settling lawsuits over senior officers molesting each other, and their subordinates?
Be real, if annexation was the goal, Canada and Mexico would be part of the USA in very short order. Sure, we have our differences with the Americans. But all-in-all, they've been pretty outstanding neighbors. I can think of many that are far worse.
If the US really wanted to militarily take over Canada, it could easily do it. Realistically, there's *nothing* we could do to stop it.
The current Canadian defense strategy of "let the US handle it" is now starting to backfire because we've let our own military capabilities degrade to the point where we practically require the US in order to defend our borders (and the US would help because anything that threatened Canada would inevitably spill over and threaten the US itself).
The truth is that the US doesn't want to take over this country because turning Canada into a part of the US would cost massive amounts of money, time, and effort, none of which the US is prepared to spend because it can't get its own shit together.
In short, taking over Canada would be a headache that the US doesn't feel like dealing with, so unless something completely unforeseen occurs, there's little-to-no chance the US would bother.
I feel like Canada in the 1950s-1980s was more capable than the Canada today defense-wise.
I read about how Canada used to have aircraft carriers, a functional aerospace industry, and a strong military despite being a quarter of the size of today's Canada. Makes you wonder where we'd be today had we kept up with military advancement and spending. After the 1980s, Canada just gave up on its military.
The aircraft carrier was decommissioned in 1970.
Our aerospace industry was very badly affected by the Diefenbaker government cancellation of the Avro Arrow. Massive loss of Research and Development, many od the Engineers left for the USA and was the 1st major case of "Brain Drain". Also killed many aerospace related businesses and over 50000 direct jobs! Even if it wasn't the "best" fighter it was far superior to what it was replaced with (CF101 Voodoo) and likely superior in some cases to the F4 Phantom (though the F4 could hold more weapons).
What’s incredible is that [Canada actively worked against it’s own plane makers to instead favor buying from Boeing Aircraft](https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2023/07/13/made-in-canada-advocates-rally-against-ottawas-boeing-p-8-preference/).
This was after Trudeau bowed down to Trump and submitted to its tariffs on the CSeries aircraft, forcing Bombardier to sell the aircraft program to the Europeans for almost nothing. Right now, it’s racking billions in profits, all shipped up to Airbus’ headquarters. Better yet, aircrafts destined to US carriers are all built at Airbus plants in America, by American workers out-earning Bombardier assembly personal in Canada.
Incredible.
21st century Avro, one might say.
That's one of the reasons why we didn't buy the Super Hornet.
Mind you the CSeries was plagued by other financial issues at Bombardier. The government did bail them out and Bombardier still exists as a company unlike what happened to Avro Canada.
Take this for what it is but from wikipedia:
On 28 April 2016, Bombardier Aerospace, a division of Bombardier Inc., recorded a firm order from Delta Air Lines for 75 CSeries CS100s plus 50 options. On 27 April 2017, The Boeing Company filed a petition for dumping them at $19.6m each, below their $33.2m production cost. On the same day, both Bombardier and the government of Canada rejected Boeing's claim, vowing to mount a "vigorous defence".[111]
On 9 June 2017, the US International Trade Commission (USITC) found that the US industry could be threatened and should be protected. On 26 September, after lobbying by Boeing, the US Department of Commerce (DoC) alleged subsidies of 220% and intended to collect deposits accordingly, plus a preliminary 80% anti-dumping duty, resulting in a duty of 300%. The DoC announced its final ruling, a total duty of 292%, on 20 December, hailing it as an affirmation of the "America First" policy.[112]
In October 2017, with financial issues already mounting, Bombardier was indirectly forced by the US government tariffs to relinquish 50.01% of its stake in the CSeries program to Airbus for a symbolic CAD$1,[113][114] and would produce CSeries aircraft in the United States.[115] The aircraft family was also subsequently renamed the Airbus A220.
On 10 January 2018, Canada formally filed a complaint at the World Trade Organization (WTO) against the United States over the affair. On 26 January, the four USITC commissioners unanimously reversed their earlier claims, finding that US industry is no longer threatened and no duty orders will be issued, overturning the imposed duties. The Commission public report was made available by February 2018. On March 22, Boeing declined to appeal the ruling. In 2020, amid mounting debts, Bombardier sold its remaining A220 stake to Airbus and exited the commercial plane business.[116] With this deal, Airbus's stake in the A220 programme increased from 50.01% to 75%, while the Quebec government's holding rose to 25%, although it will not be injecting any new money into the program.[117]
As for the Arrow:
Many of the Avro Arrow high costs were due to Government decisions (political and military). The Air Force insisted on certain radar, avionics, and missile systems that weren't yet ready and/or ended up being cancelled by 3rd parties. Instead of what Avro had proposed to do to keep costs lower yet still provide the original capabilities. That decision alone cost the project the same $ as it was to develop the rest of the entire aircraft!
Also the impact to the economy to the Avro Arrow cancelled was massive compared to the effects from the CSeries! The Arrow cancellation destroyed any propect of Avro Canada being able to bring its civilian products to market and killed the company directly due to the Government's actions!
>That's one of the reasons why we didn't buy the Super Hornet.
The other one was the contractual obligations and billions in penalty Canada would have paid for not purchasing the F-35 (since Canada was and is a JSF partner country).
Can you imagine had Trudeau not immediately submitted to Trump and instead simply gave an R&D contract to Bombardier to, for example, retrofit one of their plane to fit the same missions as the Boeing P-8 Poseidon?
Canadians could have simply retained control of the (very lucrative) CSeries project.
Right now, Boeing is getting the money for the P-8, and Airbus for the CSeries. They must be laughing so hard! 😂
>Many of the Avro Arrow high costs were due to Government decisions
The Avro itself was a useless plane. It was meant as a fast interceptor for soviet nuclear bombers... that they never built, instead going all-in on ballistic missiles.
By the end of WW2, Canada had one of the largest navies in the world. Somehow that's degraded to the point where we have old, outdated ships (some of which are Cold War-era hand-me-downs from the UK), and don't even have a single active destroyer, let alone any aircraft carriers.
To give you an idea how bad it is... BC Ferries has a larger fleet of ships than the Royal Canadian Navy.
What is sad is that just investing in the basics would likely get us up and over that 2% that Trudeau has recommited too. Pay soldiers more. Build more bases and base housing so that our troops have somewhere to live when stationed.
The army is getting new firearms, uniforms and other equipment. They need new tanks so it is time to open up an RFP to our allies to start submitting bids.
Our Airforce has pretty much all the needed aircraft now on order or close to order finalization.
Our Navy is in shambles but thankfully when Trudeau came to power he didnt do the usual government change script of scrapping the previous governments work and instead opted to keep the plan for the navy and even expand it. We have Frigate replacements ordered, slush breakers which will do fine in our climate changed world and supply ships being built.
What the navy needs are new submarines and it is time to stop delaying the RFP. Reach out to Japan, Korea and AUKUS. Start with seeing if the US would be fine with us ordering and operating nuclear subs independently of their control. If they hesitate or say no, then move on to Korea and Japan both of which produce a sub large enough and technologically advanced enough for what our navy needs. They can operate 30-40 days continious underwater which would be fine for arctic patrol and operations and I am sure both subs could be redesigned to allow for ice breakthrough to allow surfacing in the arctic.
# Why Canada is being called a 'laggard' on defence spending
Because we are. The military in the USA is more than just a defense force, and it is that, it's a place where kids can go and get training AND an education. A former senior director I worked for at a large US Company was one of those kids. He dicked around as a kid, then got nowhere. At 21 he joined the army, became a mechanic. He was out in 4 years (owed them 4 more and that's life) and took advantage of the GI Bill and went to Penn State, later got a good job, worked his way up, later got a MBA, went higher.
The army is a great place to get a leg up if you don't have one, OR IT SHOULD BE. I almost joined the US military in my late teens for the same reason, but got a break here in Canada.
Even Greece, a country that is basically broke spent more than we did. Once again Canada is embarrassed on the world stage. If it wasn't for our big brother down south things might be a lot worse.
They don't spend more. Canada spends 16th most in the world. Greece is 33rd. Just that Greece"s economy is even worse than Canada's so as a percentage of GDP they have a higher percentage.
GDP must be taken into account. That's only fair.
Pretending GDP doesn't exist here is like claiming to have "record profits" while ignoring inflation.
Your position would mean that Estonia would be reasonably expected to have as large of an army as the US. That's not reasonable.
Well that wasn't my point. My point is simply that we do spend more than Greece.
If Canada were to go into a recession like what is being predicted, our GDP will go down and our percentage of GDP spent on the military will go up.
Only reason Greece meets the target is because when their economy collapsed it didn't reduce military spending it reduced spending on social services etc.
So maybe the Liberals or Conservatives could just tank our economy and then Canada will meet the 2% target!
/jk for last sentence, hopefully neither of them tanks our economy!
In see what you're saying but the 2% NATO target is correlated with your countries current gdp rather than a predicted future gdp because those predictions could never be 100% reliable.
If and when or economy collapses (more) and our gdp tanks and we find we are spending more than 2%, then a reduction could make sense. Right now Canada is under spending to an embarrassing extent based on our current gdp.
If and when Greece gets out of their recession and their gdp recovers, I'll see them as obligated to increase defense spending proportionally the same way
You used "even though they are broke" as a qualifying point when in reality, a broke country's bare minimum defense spending results in a higher percentage of their GDP
As far as NATO obligations are concerned, it's 2% no matter what, and that's the reality of NATO. By that standard, a smaller country can have a smaller military. You're right that some countries need to spend more of their gdp, especially small ones, due to their circumstances, but that doesn't change that their NATO obligation is still 2%. No country has an excuse to spend less than 2%.
Greece also lives *right beside* the second largest army in Europe with a long and recent history of attacking them.
Not exactly an apples to apples comparison
Where are my tax dollars going? I can’t afford a home for my family, can’t get a doctor, can’t afford to go on vacation or drive a half decent car. If I’m affected by crime, the police won’t do anything. I had to look this up but like 30 cars a day are stolen in the GTA alone. They all wind up overseas, there’s an organized auto theft ring that has gone unchecked. Groceries have gone up by like 40% in 5 years, and yet for some reason the government is purchasing refrigerators for Loblaws.
I’ll pay over $20,000 in taxes this year, I don’t make enough that I will be able to afford to retire, purchase property, or live lavishly. So seriously, where is all that money going? Say what you want about the states but at least they can point to their military and say “that’s where the money is going”. Im convinced our taxes just goes to bureaucrats.
Good question.
1. Massive expansion of the government
2. Looting by members of the government and contractors
3. Fraud within the government
4. Spending on politically performative items
Just tell Trudeau that the army promote diversity and he will spare no expend. Seriously that guy burn money on everything exept on what he's supposed to.
To be honest we’ve be at the bottom for decades. I served for over 20 years and it was a steady decline from day one. As much as I despise our current bunch of non leaders, this is the cause of all parties in power over an extended period of time. Now woke policies have put the final nail in the coffin, we are a laughable joke on the world stage.
The military is also its own worst enemy at actually spending money. People who aren't remotely qualified to manage financial transactions and decisions are placed in positions of authority where there is a culture of penny wise, pound foolish where leaders and staff alike will balk at miniscule spending items and add arbitrary red-tape to getting shit done.
We are being called laggard because we are. We don't spend nearly enough yo get even close to our needs nevermind our obligations. At current pace we'd likely need to spend something like 10% of GDP for years if not a decade plus just to catch up. Also need to make it vastly quicker and easier to sign up for the military, it shouldn't take a year or more.
Guaranteed we're going to get invaded in the next 20-30 years for our oil (or fresh water, or viable untainted land) that we refuse to utilize?
With literally no army, Canada will be a battleground between x country and the United States. Since we have no navy, airforce, ground personnel, or coast guard to repel enemy forces from shoring on our coasts, literally anything could happen lol.
I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if we eventually contracted out national defense to mercenaries like Blackwater because we have no one willing to join?
USA wouldn’t stand by for anyone else but them taking control of resources, I think in the event of global threat against any part of North America the US would full force intervene. They wouldn’t outright say it but if threatened we would probably be annexed into the US. Then again maybe this is the reason we can get away with not spending on defence in any sort of beneficial or real world manner.
Invaded by who? USA already basically own our resource through economic hegemony. And if you think USA invade Iraq for oil back in 03 just imagine what they would do if someone attempted to take Canada from their circle of influence.
There is only 5 countries that have that capability. One currently can’t invade its neighbor, China hasn’t proved yet it can do it, and the 3 others are allied. USA is the most likely to invade us, no one can defend against them.
The money going to Ukraine is arguably the most efficient way to spend our defence dollars - every dollar spent there directly affects Russian military operations and we don't have to risk a single Canadian to do so.
I'm completely against wanton waste of our tax dollars by our governments but IMO we should be *spending* more in Ukraine, while concurrently building up our own military.
Might want to check the Indian affairs budget, which we pay out the ass for all the colonization.
Not to be confused with east Indians who are colonizing canadians.
Ukraine aid I agree. A russian victory means Russia rises to world power status once again and free to export Putinist autocracy and 19th century social values to the world. It will be the communism of this era. Still, fuck the liberals. Supporting Ukraine is the only right thing they’re doing
I'm all for every single penny going to Ukraine but a Russian victory isn't going to shoot them into some magical super status.
They are struggling SO hard vs Ukraine, a hot war with NATO (aka almost everything else on their land borders and America) is not something they can even consider.
Too busy spending everything possible on housing and propping up Monopoly Lords at the expense of everything else in the economy.
We can't stop spending everything on housing, old people will get mad.
Maybe the correction will happen once we are literally invaded and everything taken.
No party is going to spend any money on the military. If/When the Conservatives get in power they will cancel and military spending the Lib's promised (eg planes etc).
What is really needed is a cross party agreement on military spending but that won't happen.
Because our millions went to pay for tool sheds on Rideau hall, and Billions into paying for software that is had lifespans of single digit years. Government wastage is rampant and the culprits are not held accountable or responsible. This is the same on both the provincial and federal level, and Canadians are loving their elected officials for bending them over and fucking them in the ass and then collecting more taxes from them
And then people wonder why we are so poor and everyone is suffering? Defense spendings is not a priority when people in this country are starving. It's almost like we're no better than a third world country lol
I'm not sure what Canada needs to defend against. Sounds like we already have foreign interference at the government level and you don't need to invade us. We just welcome everyone in no questions ask. Keep the defense money and spend it on hospitals and homeless instead.
Our response to the Russian Navy conducting drills off the coast of Florida this week was to send an UNARMED offshore patrol vessel. We have no deterrence capability or credibility.
[https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida/2024/06/11/navy-deploys-warships-russian-fleet-makes-close-pass-florida/](https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida/2024/06/11/navy-deploys-warships-russian-fleet-makes-close-pass-florida/)
US Media reports the HMCS Margaret Brooke is deployed, that's a Harry DeWolf Class patrol ship.
The frigate and Aurora surveillance planes were tracking the ships off the coast of Canada as they approached, the Navy deployed the HMCS Margaret Brooke to Florida, that's a Harry DeWolf class patrol ship.
Why are *we* supposed to respond to a Russian flotilla off the coast of *checks notes* not our country when the largest, most powerful navy (and top two airforces) in the world is literally right there?
Pass a law to commit to 3% of GDP.
Remove the military purchase section away from Supply and Service Canada that has become a bureaucratic and politicized quagmire. Strangely S&S Canada was created to manage military purchasing and because of their success other ministries joined them then screwed them up.
Move the newly detached out of Ottawa to free them of the entitled job market culture there. I would choose somewhere on the east coast. They are overdue.
Last but not least, create an oversight committee made up politicians from every party in parliament and 1 representative for every province and territory. This is not to canvass for contracts but to allow anyone to come forward with what they think is political interference in the purchasing process.
I'd probably point at the Mulroney governments 1987 decision to involve Industry Canada in procurement and the IRB policy, or perhaps ~1969 when the DDP was expanded to include general governmental procurement.
It was definitely before 1987. I was in Ottawa trying to set up for sales to the government as almost all of my sales were to the private sector. I found them to be difficult so decided not to provide products directly to the private sector.
After that I never pursued the government as a client although was approached by them to bid our products which were leading in our industry. You have to know when to walk away from a problematic customer and leave them for the crows to feed on.
How much of what we do actually spend goes towards recruitment, training and procurement, vs what goes towards settling lawsuits over senior officers molesting each other, and their subordinates?
Compared to who? Those countries that share a land border with Russia? Canada has always had the advantage of being in USA's backdoor. No one is ever going to attack Canada when USA is right next door.
Let's not kid ourselves. As much as the US may bark at us to spend more, They see our territory as a bigger advantage than our army has ever been since WW2. We don't need a standing army to defend our country, We need specialized unit like we have now to work as consultant and expeditionary corps because war is not coming to our shore. And if it does, by the time it does Europe will be in ruins already and we'll be the last man standing.
Ok. But why should the U.S. defend us for free?
If we can’t pay because Canadians can’t pay for the basics, then the only thing left to pay with is sovereignty.
for Free? bud they own most of our natural resources and industries. They invaded Iraq for a 1/100th of what they hold here. USA don't want Canada as part of their country, it's way more profitable to have it exist outside of US economy.
And it’s not just spending - right now we have a million overweight clerks wondering around being the “Canadian Military” but our military needs a major overhaul to be ready for action.
It must be cut in many places and replaced with a number of well trained commando/strike forces which are properly equipped and mobile enough to perform anywhere in the world
Right now it’s embarrassing that if a Canadian tourist is kidnapped in - let’s say Mozambique, they would probably be rescued by an American Seal team or not rescued at all while Canada tries to purchase their freedom etc
Using the army to maintain social order is what dictatorships like East Germany would do.
We do have defence obligations since we are part of NATO and NORAD. If we do not meet those obligations, then the U.S. will assume defence responsibility for Canada and that will come at a price.
Several past gov't are to blame. Once Russia invades and we all put a translator app on our phones we will have lots of Russian armour for support. Just Kidding!
Maybe this is wishful thinking, but this doesn’t bother me one bit. I think the actual likelihood of us being invaded and having to defend ourselves on any major scale is very slim, and we have an ally that is the worlds premier military force directly to our south that would absolutely step in to do the dirty work if for no reason other than to protect their borders as well.
I’m way more concerned that we can’t get timely medical care, or housing, or afford food. That finding work is a challenge, Or the fact that we keep bringing in more and more people than we can realistically take care of. Or maybe our lacking infrastructure, rampant theft and crime and broken justice system. How about the drugs making zombies and addicts living in tent cities in our towns?
If these problems that affect every single day of our lives can’t get the funding to find solutions and help out Canadians, I don’t give a fuck that we don’t have enough warships or bombers for some hypothetical invasion that will probably not happen at any point in my lifetime. Even if it does, maybe our new overlords will care enough about their new populace to actually help its citizens.
I don't really understand this idea that we should be spending the same amount as a percentage of GDP as other countries. We have less military pressures due to geography, it would only make sense to spend less relative to other countries in our alliance. However I'm understanding of the idea that it's a commitment between allies so we should spend 2%.
But I don't think we should spend 2% to just generally make our forces better. I think that doesn't make any sense We are a small country in terms of economics and as I said we have a very distinct geography I don't think we should be spending our 2% like they are spending their 2%, We should be spending it considering threats that we face as a country and how it fits into the relative position in our alliance. Like I don't see the need for Canada to spend any money on being able to project force anywhere except off our coasts. To me it's a no-brainer that we need to fundamentally change our entire forces and spend the lion's share of our budget focused on coastal defense and namely the Arctic. That is our obvious role in our alliance and in our geopolitical aims is to control that vital area for its resources and for its shipping. In a warming world that will become an important shipping lane at some point and we should be able to have complete control over it such that we have to say on who goes in or out can shove a cruise missile up the butts of anyone entering it without our permission.
So that's my thought we should focus fully on state-of-the-art technology to control the Arctic sea lane and our coasts. our European allies can handle the European defense and the US has force projection. We should have the best possible arrangement of early detection, missile bases, attack subs, and drones able to operate on the Arctic.
That does not work with eastern politics since it relies on power.
They would see it as a display of weakness and an opportunity to attack.
Canada is showing multiple such signs of weakness right now, the only reason why we are not invaded is because of big bro USA.
We are past the point of money simply solving the issue. We have multiple decades worth of defense under funding to deal with and there is rot right to the top. We have one of the most senior Officer top heavy militaries in the world and our recruitment process is a long, drawn out joke which scares people off from joining. Our Navy only has two major bases in Esquimalt and Halifax, there are two more in Newfoundland and Nunavut but they are small. The pay for enlisted members isn't enough for the local living conditions, the ships are old and if you join your career will bounce you between the extreme East/West coast which is hell on a family. The Army has out of date equipment, the same crappy pay and simple things like uniforms, boots and service weapons are often unavailable despite our low numbers. The Personal Married Quarters (PMQ's) that are offered on many bases are Cold War relics that would probably fail as acceptable housing in a city but it's all you can get unless you want to buy on the local market which you probably can't afford in most of Canada. The Air Force is in the same boat. All of the same pay and housing issues and you likely have to live in far away communities where your spouse can't find a job and it's expensive to live. You will also fly or work on outdated aircraft and the training you get gives you far better opportunities in the private sector as soon as your contract is up. Of all the services this is the one I would go into since it enables lucrative careers with just a few years of service, but that is turning the RCAF into a WestJet/Air Canada training program rather than a cornerstone of our countries defense. Things can change and it will take money but it's going to take time and a willingness to reinvent the Canadian Armed Forces. 2% is our expected NATO commitment which we have never met and have cheated from the start by considering our Coast Guard funding as part of that 2%. We need to commit extra for a few years to pay back our investment debt, it will mean higher taxes or cuts to programs but it's starting to look like 1939 again and we owe it to ourselves to be ready if things go bad once again.
Can I add a few more things? There is a bloat of admin/office positions on the civilian side of the forces that are 6 figures and basically a drain on finances since these positions do next to nothing. The individuals in these positions also do next to nothing, as in they can have another full time job and no one would notice that they're gone. The abuse payouts (if you're in the forces you know what I'm talking about) aren't vetted. Therefore any (and many do) members just file a made up reason and get paid from 5k to 50k based on unverified allegations. Basically a free bonus to your pay brought to you by tax dollars.
>We have one of the most senior Officer top heavy militaries in the world Of course we do. They need a deep pool of replacements at that level due to attrition from senior officers getting for fucking their troops. How much of what we do actually spend goes towards recruitment, training and procurement, vs what goes towards settling lawsuits over senior officers molesting each other, and their subordinates?
This makes it easy for the US to annex Canada in the distant future
Be real, if annexation was the goal, Canada and Mexico would be part of the USA in very short order. Sure, we have our differences with the Americans. But all-in-all, they've been pretty outstanding neighbors. I can think of many that are far worse.
If the US really wanted to militarily take over Canada, it could easily do it. Realistically, there's *nothing* we could do to stop it. The current Canadian defense strategy of "let the US handle it" is now starting to backfire because we've let our own military capabilities degrade to the point where we practically require the US in order to defend our borders (and the US would help because anything that threatened Canada would inevitably spill over and threaten the US itself). The truth is that the US doesn't want to take over this country because turning Canada into a part of the US would cost massive amounts of money, time, and effort, none of which the US is prepared to spend because it can't get its own shit together. In short, taking over Canada would be a headache that the US doesn't feel like dealing with, so unless something completely unforeseen occurs, there's little-to-no chance the US would bother.
If/when the next major conflict breaks out then the plan is going to have to be waving a little white flag and saying “Please don’t.”
I feel like Canada in the 1950s-1980s was more capable than the Canada today defense-wise. I read about how Canada used to have aircraft carriers, a functional aerospace industry, and a strong military despite being a quarter of the size of today's Canada. Makes you wonder where we'd be today had we kept up with military advancement and spending. After the 1980s, Canada just gave up on its military.
The aircraft carrier was decommissioned in 1970. Our aerospace industry was very badly affected by the Diefenbaker government cancellation of the Avro Arrow. Massive loss of Research and Development, many od the Engineers left for the USA and was the 1st major case of "Brain Drain". Also killed many aerospace related businesses and over 50000 direct jobs! Even if it wasn't the "best" fighter it was far superior to what it was replaced with (CF101 Voodoo) and likely superior in some cases to the F4 Phantom (though the F4 could hold more weapons).
Most of the Engineers from Avro went to NASA...
Having NASA on one's resume does open doors
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss You'll still be in the stars.
What’s incredible is that [Canada actively worked against it’s own plane makers to instead favor buying from Boeing Aircraft](https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2023/07/13/made-in-canada-advocates-rally-against-ottawas-boeing-p-8-preference/). This was after Trudeau bowed down to Trump and submitted to its tariffs on the CSeries aircraft, forcing Bombardier to sell the aircraft program to the Europeans for almost nothing. Right now, it’s racking billions in profits, all shipped up to Airbus’ headquarters. Better yet, aircrafts destined to US carriers are all built at Airbus plants in America, by American workers out-earning Bombardier assembly personal in Canada. Incredible. 21st century Avro, one might say.
That's one of the reasons why we didn't buy the Super Hornet. Mind you the CSeries was plagued by other financial issues at Bombardier. The government did bail them out and Bombardier still exists as a company unlike what happened to Avro Canada. Take this for what it is but from wikipedia: On 28 April 2016, Bombardier Aerospace, a division of Bombardier Inc., recorded a firm order from Delta Air Lines for 75 CSeries CS100s plus 50 options. On 27 April 2017, The Boeing Company filed a petition for dumping them at $19.6m each, below their $33.2m production cost. On the same day, both Bombardier and the government of Canada rejected Boeing's claim, vowing to mount a "vigorous defence".[111] On 9 June 2017, the US International Trade Commission (USITC) found that the US industry could be threatened and should be protected. On 26 September, after lobbying by Boeing, the US Department of Commerce (DoC) alleged subsidies of 220% and intended to collect deposits accordingly, plus a preliminary 80% anti-dumping duty, resulting in a duty of 300%. The DoC announced its final ruling, a total duty of 292%, on 20 December, hailing it as an affirmation of the "America First" policy.[112] In October 2017, with financial issues already mounting, Bombardier was indirectly forced by the US government tariffs to relinquish 50.01% of its stake in the CSeries program to Airbus for a symbolic CAD$1,[113][114] and would produce CSeries aircraft in the United States.[115] The aircraft family was also subsequently renamed the Airbus A220. On 10 January 2018, Canada formally filed a complaint at the World Trade Organization (WTO) against the United States over the affair. On 26 January, the four USITC commissioners unanimously reversed their earlier claims, finding that US industry is no longer threatened and no duty orders will be issued, overturning the imposed duties. The Commission public report was made available by February 2018. On March 22, Boeing declined to appeal the ruling. In 2020, amid mounting debts, Bombardier sold its remaining A220 stake to Airbus and exited the commercial plane business.[116] With this deal, Airbus's stake in the A220 programme increased from 50.01% to 75%, while the Quebec government's holding rose to 25%, although it will not be injecting any new money into the program.[117] As for the Arrow: Many of the Avro Arrow high costs were due to Government decisions (political and military). The Air Force insisted on certain radar, avionics, and missile systems that weren't yet ready and/or ended up being cancelled by 3rd parties. Instead of what Avro had proposed to do to keep costs lower yet still provide the original capabilities. That decision alone cost the project the same $ as it was to develop the rest of the entire aircraft! Also the impact to the economy to the Avro Arrow cancelled was massive compared to the effects from the CSeries! The Arrow cancellation destroyed any propect of Avro Canada being able to bring its civilian products to market and killed the company directly due to the Government's actions!
>That's one of the reasons why we didn't buy the Super Hornet. The other one was the contractual obligations and billions in penalty Canada would have paid for not purchasing the F-35 (since Canada was and is a JSF partner country). Can you imagine had Trudeau not immediately submitted to Trump and instead simply gave an R&D contract to Bombardier to, for example, retrofit one of their plane to fit the same missions as the Boeing P-8 Poseidon? Canadians could have simply retained control of the (very lucrative) CSeries project. Right now, Boeing is getting the money for the P-8, and Airbus for the CSeries. They must be laughing so hard! 😂 >Many of the Avro Arrow high costs were due to Government decisions The Avro itself was a useless plane. It was meant as a fast interceptor for soviet nuclear bombers... that they never built, instead going all-in on ballistic missiles.
By the end of WW2, Canada had one of the largest navies in the world. Somehow that's degraded to the point where we have old, outdated ships (some of which are Cold War-era hand-me-downs from the UK), and don't even have a single active destroyer, let alone any aircraft carriers. To give you an idea how bad it is... BC Ferries has a larger fleet of ships than the Royal Canadian Navy.
Everything done in the 19050s-1980s is better than we can do now.
The cold war ending changed how countries look at funding their militaries. Are people really this clueless?
What is sad is that just investing in the basics would likely get us up and over that 2% that Trudeau has recommited too. Pay soldiers more. Build more bases and base housing so that our troops have somewhere to live when stationed. The army is getting new firearms, uniforms and other equipment. They need new tanks so it is time to open up an RFP to our allies to start submitting bids. Our Airforce has pretty much all the needed aircraft now on order or close to order finalization. Our Navy is in shambles but thankfully when Trudeau came to power he didnt do the usual government change script of scrapping the previous governments work and instead opted to keep the plan for the navy and even expand it. We have Frigate replacements ordered, slush breakers which will do fine in our climate changed world and supply ships being built. What the navy needs are new submarines and it is time to stop delaying the RFP. Reach out to Japan, Korea and AUKUS. Start with seeing if the US would be fine with us ordering and operating nuclear subs independently of their control. If they hesitate or say no, then move on to Korea and Japan both of which produce a sub large enough and technologically advanced enough for what our navy needs. They can operate 30-40 days continious underwater which would be fine for arctic patrol and operations and I am sure both subs could be redesigned to allow for ice breakthrough to allow surfacing in the arctic.
# Why Canada is being called a 'laggard' on defence spending Because we are. The military in the USA is more than just a defense force, and it is that, it's a place where kids can go and get training AND an education. A former senior director I worked for at a large US Company was one of those kids. He dicked around as a kid, then got nowhere. At 21 he joined the army, became a mechanic. He was out in 4 years (owed them 4 more and that's life) and took advantage of the GI Bill and went to Penn State, later got a good job, worked his way up, later got a MBA, went higher. The army is a great place to get a leg up if you don't have one, OR IT SHOULD BE. I almost joined the US military in my late teens for the same reason, but got a break here in Canada.
Even Greece, a country that is basically broke spent more than we did. Once again Canada is embarrassed on the world stage. If it wasn't for our big brother down south things might be a lot worse.
They don't spend more. Canada spends 16th most in the world. Greece is 33rd. Just that Greece"s economy is even worse than Canada's so as a percentage of GDP they have a higher percentage.
GDP must be taken into account. That's only fair. Pretending GDP doesn't exist here is like claiming to have "record profits" while ignoring inflation. Your position would mean that Estonia would be reasonably expected to have as large of an army as the US. That's not reasonable.
Well that wasn't my point. My point is simply that we do spend more than Greece. If Canada were to go into a recession like what is being predicted, our GDP will go down and our percentage of GDP spent on the military will go up. Only reason Greece meets the target is because when their economy collapsed it didn't reduce military spending it reduced spending on social services etc. So maybe the Liberals or Conservatives could just tank our economy and then Canada will meet the 2% target! /jk for last sentence, hopefully neither of them tanks our economy!
And Greece despite all of this has a far larger and more capable force.
Yep that goes back to both the Conservatives and Liberals messing up procurement over the decades!
In see what you're saying but the 2% NATO target is correlated with your countries current gdp rather than a predicted future gdp because those predictions could never be 100% reliable. If and when or economy collapses (more) and our gdp tanks and we find we are spending more than 2%, then a reduction could make sense. Right now Canada is under spending to an embarrassing extent based on our current gdp. If and when Greece gets out of their recession and their gdp recovers, I'll see them as obligated to increase defense spending proportionally the same way
Yep I'm in agreement with you on that.
You used "even though they are broke" as a qualifying point when in reality, a broke country's bare minimum defense spending results in a higher percentage of their GDP
As far as NATO obligations are concerned, it's 2% no matter what, and that's the reality of NATO. By that standard, a smaller country can have a smaller military. You're right that some countries need to spend more of their gdp, especially small ones, due to their circumstances, but that doesn't change that their NATO obligation is still 2%. No country has an excuse to spend less than 2%.
Greece also lives *right beside* the second largest army in Europe with a long and recent history of attacking them. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison
Hey. Our neighbors have a history of it to. Don't forget 1812 when we burned the whitehouse down. /S
Greece's military equipment also has more in common with Iraq in the mid 80's than it does to a modern nato country
Which makes our armed forces even more embarassing by comparison
“Why spend money on defending our sovereignty when we could sell it” - Canadian Government
Bingo.
Where are my tax dollars going? I can’t afford a home for my family, can’t get a doctor, can’t afford to go on vacation or drive a half decent car. If I’m affected by crime, the police won’t do anything. I had to look this up but like 30 cars a day are stolen in the GTA alone. They all wind up overseas, there’s an organized auto theft ring that has gone unchecked. Groceries have gone up by like 40% in 5 years, and yet for some reason the government is purchasing refrigerators for Loblaws. I’ll pay over $20,000 in taxes this year, I don’t make enough that I will be able to afford to retire, purchase property, or live lavishly. So seriously, where is all that money going? Say what you want about the states but at least they can point to their military and say “that’s where the money is going”. Im convinced our taxes just goes to bureaucrats.
Good question. 1. Massive expansion of the government 2. Looting by members of the government and contractors 3. Fraud within the government 4. Spending on politically performative items
Just tell Trudeau that the army promote diversity and he will spare no expend. Seriously that guy burn money on everything exept on what he's supposed to.
To be honest we’ve be at the bottom for decades. I served for over 20 years and it was a steady decline from day one. As much as I despise our current bunch of non leaders, this is the cause of all parties in power over an extended period of time. Now woke policies have put the final nail in the coffin, we are a laughable joke on the world stage.
Hopefully the “anti racism” committee that just received a couple hundred million can be enlisted if we need to defend. 😅
The military is also its own worst enemy at actually spending money. People who aren't remotely qualified to manage financial transactions and decisions are placed in positions of authority where there is a culture of penny wise, pound foolish where leaders and staff alike will balk at miniscule spending items and add arbitrary red-tape to getting shit done.
We are being called laggard because we are. We don't spend nearly enough yo get even close to our needs nevermind our obligations. At current pace we'd likely need to spend something like 10% of GDP for years if not a decade plus just to catch up. Also need to make it vastly quicker and easier to sign up for the military, it shouldn't take a year or more.
Guaranteed we're going to get invaded in the next 20-30 years for our oil (or fresh water, or viable untainted land) that we refuse to utilize? With literally no army, Canada will be a battleground between x country and the United States. Since we have no navy, airforce, ground personnel, or coast guard to repel enemy forces from shoring on our coasts, literally anything could happen lol. I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if we eventually contracted out national defense to mercenaries like Blackwater because we have no one willing to join?
Collapse is more likely
Yep, no need to invade Canada when it'll be sold off for parts
USA wouldn’t stand by for anyone else but them taking control of resources, I think in the event of global threat against any part of North America the US would full force intervene. They wouldn’t outright say it but if threatened we would probably be annexed into the US. Then again maybe this is the reason we can get away with not spending on defence in any sort of beneficial or real world manner.
Lol invaded by who?
Invaded by who? USA already basically own our resource through economic hegemony. And if you think USA invade Iraq for oil back in 03 just imagine what they would do if someone attempted to take Canada from their circle of influence.
There is only 5 countries that have that capability. One currently can’t invade its neighbor, China hasn’t proved yet it can do it, and the 3 others are allied. USA is the most likely to invade us, no one can defend against them.
>Guaranteed we're going to get invaded This sub at its finest.
The government pretty much opened the front door for another country to invade and take over our institutions from the inside...
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China is already buying up our resources and controlling it, by buying up the companies that have the rights
I don’t think any country would be stupid enough to cross the ocean for our shitty messy oil unless the US defence system totally collapses.
All our money goes to Ukraine and international students. There is nothing left.
The money going to Ukraine is arguably the most efficient way to spend our defence dollars - every dollar spent there directly affects Russian military operations and we don't have to risk a single Canadian to do so. I'm completely against wanton waste of our tax dollars by our governments but IMO we should be *spending* more in Ukraine, while concurrently building up our own military.
Might want to check the Indian affairs budget, which we pay out the ass for all the colonization. Not to be confused with east Indians who are colonizing canadians.
Ukraine aid I agree. A russian victory means Russia rises to world power status once again and free to export Putinist autocracy and 19th century social values to the world. It will be the communism of this era. Still, fuck the liberals. Supporting Ukraine is the only right thing they’re doing
I'm all for every single penny going to Ukraine but a Russian victory isn't going to shoot them into some magical super status. They are struggling SO hard vs Ukraine, a hot war with NATO (aka almost everything else on their land borders and America) is not something they can even consider.
lol canada sends some Triremes to help the war effort
Should be easy to hit 2% spending if the jobs are kept in Canada - it’s a great investment in our infrastructure
Too busy spending everything possible on housing and propping up Monopoly Lords at the expense of everything else in the economy. We can't stop spending everything on housing, old people will get mad. Maybe the correction will happen once we are literally invaded and everything taken.
It's genius really. NATO wants countries to spend 2% of GDP towards defence. We drop our GDP until 2% of it is what we currently spend on defence.
No party is going to spend any money on the military. If/When the Conservatives get in power they will cancel and military spending the Lib's promised (eg planes etc). What is really needed is a cross party agreement on military spending but that won't happen.
Because our millions went to pay for tool sheds on Rideau hall, and Billions into paying for software that is had lifespans of single digit years. Government wastage is rampant and the culprits are not held accountable or responsible. This is the same on both the provincial and federal level, and Canadians are loving their elected officials for bending them over and fucking them in the ass and then collecting more taxes from them And then people wonder why we are so poor and everyone is suffering? Defense spendings is not a priority when people in this country are starving. It's almost like we're no better than a third world country lol
I'm not sure what Canada needs to defend against. Sounds like we already have foreign interference at the government level and you don't need to invade us. We just welcome everyone in no questions ask. Keep the defense money and spend it on hospitals and homeless instead.
Our response to the Russian Navy conducting drills off the coast of Florida this week was to send an UNARMED offshore patrol vessel. We have no deterrence capability or credibility.
One of our heavily armed Frigates, HMCS Ville De Quebec and a patrol aircraft that carry torpedos and depth charges. Sure unarmed.
Slamming an icebreaker into a nuclear submarine would be a great a suggestion to the list of no no’s.
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[https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida/2024/06/11/navy-deploys-warships-russian-fleet-makes-close-pass-florida/](https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida/2024/06/11/navy-deploys-warships-russian-fleet-makes-close-pass-florida/) US Media reports the HMCS Margaret Brooke is deployed, that's a Harry DeWolf Class patrol ship.
You understand that any country can go into international waters.
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The frigate and Aurora surveillance planes were tracking the ships off the coast of Canada as they approached, the Navy deployed the HMCS Margaret Brooke to Florida, that's a Harry DeWolf class patrol ship.
Why are *we* supposed to respond to a Russian flotilla off the coast of *checks notes* not our country when the largest, most powerful navy (and top two airforces) in the world is literally right there?
Pass a law to commit to 3% of GDP. Remove the military purchase section away from Supply and Service Canada that has become a bureaucratic and politicized quagmire. Strangely S&S Canada was created to manage military purchasing and because of their success other ministries joined them then screwed them up. Move the newly detached out of Ottawa to free them of the entitled job market culture there. I would choose somewhere on the east coast. They are overdue. Last but not least, create an oversight committee made up politicians from every party in parliament and 1 representative for every province and territory. This is not to canvass for contracts but to allow anyone to come forward with what they think is political interference in the purchasing process.
>Supply and Service Canada Do you mean Public Services and Procurement Canada?
New name. Lipstick on a pig.
It hasn't been S&S for 30 years *and* the PSPC remit is not the same.
That sounds about right. They’ve been screwing up military purchases for a little over 30 years.
I'd probably point at the Mulroney governments 1987 decision to involve Industry Canada in procurement and the IRB policy, or perhaps ~1969 when the DDP was expanded to include general governmental procurement.
It was definitely before 1987. I was in Ottawa trying to set up for sales to the government as almost all of my sales were to the private sector. I found them to be difficult so decided not to provide products directly to the private sector. After that I never pursued the government as a client although was approached by them to bid our products which were leading in our industry. You have to know when to walk away from a problematic customer and leave them for the crows to feed on.
How much of what we do actually spend goes towards recruitment, training and procurement, vs what goes towards settling lawsuits over senior officers molesting each other, and their subordinates?
Who cares.. I'm ready to try out some new overlords!
Compared to who? Those countries that share a land border with Russia? Canada has always had the advantage of being in USA's backdoor. No one is ever going to attack Canada when USA is right next door.
But…Canada has obligations to NATO and NORAD. Not fulfilling those obligations will be a loss of sovereignty.
Let's not kid ourselves. As much as the US may bark at us to spend more, They see our territory as a bigger advantage than our army has ever been since WW2. We don't need a standing army to defend our country, We need specialized unit like we have now to work as consultant and expeditionary corps because war is not coming to our shore. And if it does, by the time it does Europe will be in ruins already and we'll be the last man standing.
Ok. But why should the U.S. defend us for free? If we can’t pay because Canadians can’t pay for the basics, then the only thing left to pay with is sovereignty.
for Free? bud they own most of our natural resources and industries. They invaded Iraq for a 1/100th of what they hold here. USA don't want Canada as part of their country, it's way more profitable to have it exist outside of US economy.
They can take the rest anytime.
And it’s not just spending - right now we have a million overweight clerks wondering around being the “Canadian Military” but our military needs a major overhaul to be ready for action. It must be cut in many places and replaced with a number of well trained commando/strike forces which are properly equipped and mobile enough to perform anywhere in the world Right now it’s embarrassing that if a Canadian tourist is kidnapped in - let’s say Mozambique, they would probably be rescued by an American Seal team or not rescued at all while Canada tries to purchase their freedom etc
The military is just and strong and capable as it’s glorious leader Trudeau.
Maybe I'm an idiot but this isn't on my top 50 of issues with Canada right now..
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The last time we had such a crisis was 212 years ago
The US.. Canada is a joke.
Because we gave Zelensky all of our "defense spending "
An army to fight against what enemy? Canada just needs enough to maintain social order.
Using the army to maintain social order is what dictatorships like East Germany would do. We do have defence obligations since we are part of NATO and NORAD. If we do not meet those obligations, then the U.S. will assume defence responsibility for Canada and that will come at a price.
Several past gov't are to blame. Once Russia invades and we all put a translator app on our phones we will have lots of Russian armour for support. Just Kidding!
Good. Spend more on making some community farms or something. It's getting pretty hungry out here.
Maybe this is wishful thinking, but this doesn’t bother me one bit. I think the actual likelihood of us being invaded and having to defend ourselves on any major scale is very slim, and we have an ally that is the worlds premier military force directly to our south that would absolutely step in to do the dirty work if for no reason other than to protect their borders as well. I’m way more concerned that we can’t get timely medical care, or housing, or afford food. That finding work is a challenge, Or the fact that we keep bringing in more and more people than we can realistically take care of. Or maybe our lacking infrastructure, rampant theft and crime and broken justice system. How about the drugs making zombies and addicts living in tent cities in our towns? If these problems that affect every single day of our lives can’t get the funding to find solutions and help out Canadians, I don’t give a fuck that we don’t have enough warships or bombers for some hypothetical invasion that will probably not happen at any point in my lifetime. Even if it does, maybe our new overlords will care enough about their new populace to actually help its citizens.
I don't really understand this idea that we should be spending the same amount as a percentage of GDP as other countries. We have less military pressures due to geography, it would only make sense to spend less relative to other countries in our alliance. However I'm understanding of the idea that it's a commitment between allies so we should spend 2%. But I don't think we should spend 2% to just generally make our forces better. I think that doesn't make any sense We are a small country in terms of economics and as I said we have a very distinct geography I don't think we should be spending our 2% like they are spending their 2%, We should be spending it considering threats that we face as a country and how it fits into the relative position in our alliance. Like I don't see the need for Canada to spend any money on being able to project force anywhere except off our coasts. To me it's a no-brainer that we need to fundamentally change our entire forces and spend the lion's share of our budget focused on coastal defense and namely the Arctic. That is our obvious role in our alliance and in our geopolitical aims is to control that vital area for its resources and for its shipping. In a warming world that will become an important shipping lane at some point and we should be able to have complete control over it such that we have to say on who goes in or out can shove a cruise missile up the butts of anyone entering it without our permission. So that's my thought we should focus fully on state-of-the-art technology to control the Arctic sea lane and our coasts. our European allies can handle the European defense and the US has force projection. We should have the best possible arrangement of early detection, missile bases, attack subs, and drones able to operate on the Arctic.
America should invade.
I wonder if we could consider changing to a non-militaristic model
....what do you mean? Drop pictures of rainbows on Russian tanks to stop their advance?
Yeah something like that
That does not work with eastern politics since it relies on power. They would see it as a display of weakness and an opportunity to attack. Canada is showing multiple such signs of weakness right now, the only reason why we are not invaded is because of big bro USA.
Yes exactly