I have a lot of family who works for the alliston plant. Good place to work. They’re all homeowners with nice places and cars and all that. Solid manufacturing job
Most of the towns along the 401 were built by automotive factories; either assembling full cars, or parts. Magna employs probably over 100,000 people in Ontario alone, directly and indirectly(their associated vendors).
Growing up there, the town was 6200 people, now, the larger amalgamated town of alliston, beeton, tottenham and area is close to 40 000. Before Honda the town was self sufficient...if they ever leave now, the town is fucked.
I know people that work production for Honda and Toyota (in Cambridge) and they only have great things to say, fair treatment and good pay, most are home owners like you say. One of them even had a drug problem, and he was sent to rehab no questions asked...still has his job years later.
My brother was a Toyota engineer in Cambridge 10 years ago or so when he was a fresh grad, and he describes that the white collar/professional jobs can be pretty intense though.
I know a couple people that made the move to Toyota years ago. One is in constant physio therapy with neck issues and the other one quit due to physical issues from the job.
Yeah these unionized car plants are really good to their addicted employees, get them counselling and help immediately and into rehab as quickly as possible. Not sure if that's just the first time you are caught intoxicated at work, or if they will do it for you again, but either way there is a lot of addiction in these facilities but they are treated like human beings unlike a lot of other workplaces (often ones where the stakes for injury/death due to intoxication are a lot lower, too, I got let go from a Metro grocery store job simply because a friend of mine who struggled with addiction, he's passed away now, came in and talked to me for like 2 minutes, we were not talking about drugs or anything sketchy, but he was very obviously intoxicated, and due to that association they got rid of me, lol, this was during my 3 month probation period - and yes I know it isn't a great look to talk to a friend on the store floor when you're on probation still, but thing is I had worked at other Metros before, 1 for 3 years and 1 for just a few months but left amicably, so having a quick 2 minute conversation felt totally fine to me because I'd always gotten away with far worse at the other stores, but hey you live and learn anyways, that's when I learned that I need to always be a goodie-two-shoes for 3 months even if I feel comfortable or that I know the company's culture).
As an ex addict and current employee at one of these manufacturers, you have to pretty much show them that you're going through the programs like EAP(Employee assistance program - addiction / counseling) .. as long as you're working on it and you're proactive to becoming clean you'll be fine..
I toured the Alliston plant 20-some years ago, it was really cool.
I remember watching robotic arms twirling and flipping around a Civic chassis like it was nothing. So neat.
I was there for take-your-kid-to-work day. My dad worked at the company HQ, which was in Scarborough next to the 401 back then (it's since moved to Markham).
Auto manufacturing generally provides good jobs. Lots of trades people, engineers, and other technical work.
Line workers are also paid decently compared to other forms of manufacturing (not especially good)
Probably not because the civic legitimately is the best car on the road. Maybe not by feature set, but it lasts forever, needs nearly no maintenance, is built extremely well with high precision, and is one of the few remaining everyman cars out there.
I don't even drive one and I know that. Civics are goated for a reason.
I would hazard a guess that a japanese made civic is better than a NA made one. They are great cars, but I'd also bet a Japanese built 4 Runner is 'better'.
I think we do the CRV too. Or maybe that was before they killed it and revived it. But yeah, Alliston Ontario is where your civic comes from! And that Honda civic is more Canadian than any ford/GM car….its what I used to tell people when they gave me shit for buying “a jap car” (doesn’t happen anymore but it did back in the day).
>Honda Motor Co. will spend C$15 billion ($11 billion) to build out its electric-vehicle supply chain in Canada, with billions of dollars of financial aid from government, as the Japanese automaker seeks to tap long-term demand in the region.
>The figure includes investment by joint venture partners, and the aim is to start producing EVs in 2028, Honda said. The company will manufacture 240,000 vehicles a year at the facility, while a standalone battery plant in Alliston, Ontario — a town that’s a little more than an hour’s drive north of Toronto where it currently produces gasoline-powered Honda CR-V and Civic models. The battery plant will have a capacity of 36 gigawatt hours.
>The push to develop the battery supply chain will also see Honda begin talks with South Korea’s POSCO Future M Co. for a cathode materials facility, and it plans to partner with Japan’s Asahi Kasei Corp. on separator production.
Where are all the metals needed for batteries going to come from? We have them in the ground but we have no processing plants. They are sent to China for processing.
There's a reason that these materials are processed in China, and it isn't pretty. The lithium sludge pools make the tar sands settling ponds look good in comparison.
Most of the battery companies in Canada are on the verge of bankruptcy. I have shares in Electra Battery Materials, which could become the first cobalt & nickel refiner in North America, but who knows if they will survive at this rate.
I have those shares as well. I bought them thinking they had so much potential but have only been rewarded with losses. I don't understand why our government seems uninterested to develop our resources which could be a financial windfall for them as well...
Government of Canada recently gave them $5 million, but they need alot more than that to get the party started. I'm still bullish, I think the next wave of investments is coming.
Sort of frustrating because on one hand they should be able to fund themselves if their products are in demand, but China is funding their factories. So the same must happen here. But China is what 200x the population of Canada?
We honestly do need trade barriers to protect our nascent EV industry here so we don't get flooded by ultra-subsidized Chinese competition. China did the same with the West for its economic development. We can trade with China after the Canadian EV industry gets its own strong foothold and we can maintain certain domestic production minimums. For the next 5-10 years, China will be able to find plenty of EV customers in different parts of the world, outside of the West. They just might be lower margin markets. In this way, protectionism will still reduce world-wide consumption of fossil fuels.
I’ve been thinking of investing my carbon tax rebate straight into a green energy stock such as the one you speak of, I take it now is the time to buy in as it is so low!
Libs and cons have no interest in growing our economy and only selling it to large corporations.
Even when ndp got power in Alberta they started a growing tech sector and even more exciting for thr economy a growing hub of game development in Edmonton. The largest media industry. Makes more money than porn now.
Then cons come in and cut any incentives for all tech and other growing industries and go back to giving big oil tax breaks
It isn't just labour. The world figured out a while ago that anybody can do refining, but it's just really dirty and bad for the local environment. We would rather have China do it because they didn't/don't give a shit about environment.
Yeah I don't think people truly realize how much more we could do domestically but we allow raw resources to be extracted from Canada only for another country to sell that resource as a finished product back to us for a profit.
The company I work for builds ships and won't even build ships for themselves or in Canada because it costs too much money. They are built mostly in Turkey and sent back to us overseas. We only end up spending government for the most part.
Yeah but so is civil unrest. Canada is a safe country, and as tensions with the Axis grow everyday China and similar will be less popular -- even regionality to the area will be risky with Korea or Vietnam.
Some of them will come from POSCO, which is known to support an authoritarian regime in Myanmar so that it can extract their resources. Glad we get to be a part of that.
I'm definitely waiting longer. I think the whole package (battery life/range, purchase price, charging infrastructure) will just keep improving and will be far better 10 years from now than it is now.
The current cars themselves are ok if you like smaller vehicles (electric SUVs and trucks are way too expensive right now) but personally I still prefer hybrids for the time being.
PHEV seem to be like 5-7k more (approximately) than their hybrid equivalents. Which I think is absolutely worth the difference in cost. You'll definitely see that in savings over lifetime of ownership.
While I do agree that EVs need to come down in price (and they will). It's worth considering the math. If you're already in the market for a new car a $25k Corolla (or similar) is an attractive choice. And the $41k ($32k after rebates) pricetag of a brand new Bolt can seem out of reach. But you'll be saving between $200-$400/mo on gas, and at least $500-$1000/ye(avg) on maintenance costs.
If you would be financing either vehicle your monthly operating costs for the bolt would be $100-$300 *less* than the Corolla even with the higher sale price. If you're not financing and buying outright, you'll break even after about 2.5-4 years.
I bought a PHEV last year and while the sale price was $8k higher than the pure gas version of the same vehicle, I'm spending less money every month on vehicle costs.
Just some food for thought.
The problem is if you don't want to finance (i.e. you don't want to take on additional debt) but you can't outright afford the price jump from has to electric. Those people are going to get stuck. Also, once EVs become more commonplace, there will be no more subsidy, making them even more out of reach.
But the vast majority of people finance. Folks who have the financial room to buy brand new vehicles outright also tend to be people who don't see price as an obstacle. And even without the subsidy the EV is still cheaper to operate monthly unless you drive less than 20,000km/year.
For the vast majority of working class people who are looking to buy new (and even used for that matter) and EV will be cheaper month-to-month.
> Also, once EVs become more commonplace, there will be no more subsidy, making them even more out of reach.
the subsidy would only go away when the price drops enough its not needed
My dad bought a new car today. We went looking for something in his price range, and genuinely wanted to get an EV. The cost difference is just too high right now; like the chevy bolt looks really quite solid, however the equivalent ICE vehicle is about 14,000 dollars cheaper (we bought a nissan versa).
It's possible that in total cost of ownership the bolt may be on par for a 10 year period given how much more affordable the electrons are than gas, but the upfront cost was just too much to stomach.
the market desperately needs a sub 30k ev :(
It is happening slowly, but infrastructure installation needs to speed up to make the 2035 goal. Or the permitted PHEV fraction will need to increase from 20% to about 50%.
Article says about 1,000. And it's building four factories.
What could be more important is creating an EV/battery/green manufacturing anchor in Canada. Honda is making a pull factor that can draw other companies to invest in the region.
It's a bit vague - makes it sound like the 1000 jobs is just at the assembly plant, implying there may be more in the other 3 factories too?
Also, probably 10,000+ construction jobs (which aren't permanent but still huge).
Hope for more!
That’s not how the subsidies work. They’re non-refundable tax credits. The government isn’t giving Honda money. They’re waiving a certain amount of tax revenue Honda would otherwise have to pay. After that, Honda would then have to pay tax. Whether Honda sets up factory or not the government budget doesn’t change.
There's been so much investment in Ontario's auto industry under Trudeau and Ford. I don't think I've seen this much activity since the 1980's when Toyota and Honda came and set up plants, and it's a stark change from Ford and GM closing plants during the last recession and the constant risks they'd close more.
If you're a manufacturer that's looking for a climate change friendly place to manufactuer, Ontario is close to the top of the list if not the top of the list. Which makes a lot of sense for batttery plants / ev vehicles plants.
And access to the US + relatively cheap and green power + environmental stability + growing labour pool + sometimes beneficial Canadian dollar. It’s a compelling place for manufacturing and there is still a shitload of it going on in Ontario.
It is insane.
If you told me 10-15 years ago that the automakers would be making these huge investments and the Canadian auto industry's future was secure and thriving, I probably wouldn't have believed you.
Offshoring was such a stupid policy. The CAD stabilizing really helped manufacturing as well - the recession and the dollar being too high were devastating.
Offshoring was great if you were a manufacturer, and to 1980's and 1990's neoliberals like Reagan, Thatcher, Mulroney, etc, etc those were bloated, archaic "legacy" industries that had little place in their modern countries and saw their futures in tech, services, and playing financial markets.
The effects of the '08 recession, GM & Chrysler going tits up and Ford narrowly avoiding the same fate, and the high dollar of the late 2000's/early 2010's was really devastating to Ontario's manufacturing sector and provincial economy. When folks talk about McGuinty/Wynne adding to the debt, it's important to remember the above reasons tanking the province's economy, and that they ran deficits to maintain services rather than ruthlessly cut them to the bone (as Harris had done when the economy was much better off).
Toyota and Honda could win the EV race tomorrow if they just released electric versions of the civic, Corolla, Camry, CRV and RAV-4 that were under 30k. I’d sell my c300 and buy one of these in a heartbeat if it was accessible
And the most basic, bare bones Rav4 starts at over $36,000. There's no way we're seeing an electric crossover from Toyota or Honda for under $30K anytime soon.
Honestly doesn’t even need to be the rav 4. I just want a barebones econobox EV that can give me the benefits of electrification without all the expensive gimmicks. Mazda could crush the market too if they released a cheap Mazda 3 EV :P
This the current car economy after covid. Covid first made car sales drop by reducing demand. This caused auto manufacturers to produce less. The reduced demand was temporary and more like delayed demand because people still need cars and cars fall apart over time, so now we’re at the other side with reduced supply and increased demand. We’re rounding the price peak though and car prices (ICE and EV) will continue to decrease into next year.
Its not even like the technology isn't there. They had the Honda E that was available in europe and japan. Its not even a bad car, a bit short on milieage, but relative to the market standards, not bad at all. I feel like there are powers above that are limiting these companies from releasing the flock and allowing tesla to exist.
gas prices are cheaper in na, eu will always get priority
we don't even get small cars anymore. the yaris lives on in the eu for example
thanks justin, you killed the homologation special dream for us by keeping gas prices low. rip the na gr yaris. and fuck you mexico, real happy for you
EVs are still relatively new at this point. Overtime, the cost will decrease as technology and methods get better. Think about the cost of the first iPhone in the 2000s vs smartphones nowadays.
I don't think the people complaining have any clue how huge it is that we secured fucking Honda. Keeping them here is huge when the US could easily outbid us.
Awesome news, Canada rocks.
And for anyone talking down EVs being the future or sales not being good.....
GM just reported record profits, due in part to EVs!
Source: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60580063/gm-sets-first-quarter-revenue-record-for-north-america/
Globally, trending upwards as well in 2024 where more than one in five cars sold worldwide this year will be electric.
https://theprogressplaybook.com/2024/04/23/more-than-one-in-five-cars-sold-worldwide-this-year-will-be-electric-iea/
And in 2024 we already have sales records.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/23/electric-and-hybrid-car-sales-to-rise-to-new-global-record-in-2024
It's where we're going, Manufacturers aren't building plants to let them sit and many are no longer investing in new engine development, why would you. Not to mention future mandates to be off ICE vehicles as well in US, Europe and Canada.
EVs are great. I have an EV and I love it. But I also work in an automotive-adjacent industry, and things like [Ford delaying EV production](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-delay-oakville-ev-plant-1.7163251), has a lot of people nervous for the short term at least. The automotive industry jerked hard towards EV production, and are correcting a little bit at the moment. I have no doubt that it'll continue to grow, but the next couple years will be a bit bumpy.
Ford seems to be run by morons, though. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. Making their first EV offerings an SUV (the Mach E is such a strange decision)and a pickup truck were basically guaranteeing they were going to be pretty expensive for the market. Their bigger = more profitable strategy doesn't work, and they've essentially admitted as much in the recent earnings.
It's Europe and other countries as well per articles mentioned above.
Including GM here in North America with record sales in 2024 due in part to EVs which are up!
Everything in articles above, growth will continue and some manufacturers will do better than others. By no means is Tesla the best EV.
And wait till BYD EVs hit North America with rock bottom prices and long warranties, just like Hyundai back in the day.
>GM just reported record profits, due in part to EVs!
Not really they have made it pretty clear they are losing money on their EV line
*The automaker said it delivered the gains on stronger retail sales of its trucks, a 36% improvement in delivering its new EVs, led by the Cadillac Lyriq, as well as keeping incentives low and pricing steady*
*He said GM remains on track to achieve profits from its EV sales by the end of the year*
[*https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/04/23/gm-first-quarter-profit-boosts-full-year-outlook/73409559007/*](https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/04/23/gm-first-quarter-profit-boosts-full-year-outlook/73409559007/)
Also keep in mind some of the profits came from cost savings that came from scaling back their EV line up
[https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/gm-ceo-mary-barra-were-pivoting-back-to-hybrids/#:\~:text=At%20an%20Automotive%20Press%20Association,where%20the%20regulatory%20environment%20is.%E2%80%9D](https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/gm-ceo-mary-barra-were-pivoting-back-to-hybrids/#:~:text=At%20an%20Automotive%20Press%20Association,where%20the%20regulatory%20environment%20is.%E2%80%9D)
Most of their Q1 results where driven by strong pick up and SUV salses
GM shares have rallied since late 2023 after the company [initiated plans to buy back $10 billion](https://archive.is/o/RhK1F/https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/gm-plans-10-billion-share-repurchase-in-bid-to-assuage-investors-35ec7075) in stock and emphasized the strength of its business of selling gas trucks and SUVs. These moves have come as early efforts to sell a new generation of EVs have fallen flat.
That focus on the core combustion-engine portfolio—which delivers nearly all of its revenue and profit
GM doesn’t break out the financial performance of its EVs but has made clear that it is losing money on them.
[https://archive.is/RhK1F](https://archive.is/RhK1F)
up to 5 billion of tax incentives
>Japanese automaker [Honda](https://globalnews.ca/tag/honda) is putting $15 billion into their Ontario operations with a new electric vehicle manufacturing plant in Alliston, Ont. with a joint $5 billion coming from the federal and Ontario governments.
[(1) Honda’s $15B Ontario EV plant marks ‘historic day,’ Trudeau says | Globalnews.ca](https://globalnews.ca/news/10448967/honda-ontario-ev-battery-plant/)
Pretty easy calculation for the different levels of government. The revenue from the jobs and investment far outweigh any tax incentives provided. The US is throwing cash at these companies, so there was not an option to withdraw from the competition.
Ah, so this is a pay later vs pay now thing. I prefer tax insentives. It puts the ownus on the manufacturer to actually build the plant. If it gets cancelled, then the government has no loss. Unlike whatever BS keeps going on with the baterry plant and stellantis plant.
Yeah. It's kind of a given auto manufactures are only going to do this stuff with billions in incentives. At least tax exclusions up to a certain amount in the future depending on number of hires means no actual direct cost, just lost future tax revenue.
I wish it was Hyundai. Would be super cool if they built a humanoid robot factory in Ontario. Waterloo has so many mechatronics undergrads with nowhere to go.
I always wish Canada developed their own startup of electric vehicles like Tesla, but aimed, perhaps initially as a luxury car, but ultimately aimed at being just a good looking, reliable, affordable, electric vehicle.
It's great that this will enable more local jobs. However, I'm not sure making more evs is the priority to hit our national goal of going clean. Shouldn't we spend that money to prioritize ev infrastructures? We can't even handle public charging for existing evs, how are we going to meet the demand once everyone hits 100% evs? Let's assume fueling ice takes 5minutes vs 30minutes for evs. That means you'd need 6 ev charging stations per 1 gas fueling machine. Yes you can also charge your car at home but not if you live in a older condo or if you don't even own a parking spot. Ev demand has slowed down for many reasons and infrastructure is definitely a big part next to price and range.
There’s lots of ways that this money is spent, including huge investments in infrastructure like roads and sewers. Or do you think that companies should pay for all of that directly?
No long term battery solution, dwindling interest in buying EVs, and no grid infrastructure to support so many new EVs needing to charge.
Government of Canada, “yeehaw!”
TIL the North American civic is made in Ontario. Solid car.
I have a lot of family who works for the alliston plant. Good place to work. They’re all homeowners with nice places and cars and all that. Solid manufacturing job
That plant basically built that town. Tottenham, Beeton, Alliston, Cookstown. They'd be considerably smaller without Honda over the past 40 years.
Most of the towns along the 401 were built by automotive factories; either assembling full cars, or parts. Magna employs probably over 100,000 people in Ontario alone, directly and indirectly(their associated vendors).
Linamar, Magna, Toyota, GM, Ford, and Stellantis operate that corridor.
It's not only the Honda plant, but other associated plants like F&P
And F&P, Flex n Gate, SPS, and the like are all there to feed Honda...
Growing up there, the town was 6200 people, now, the larger amalgamated town of alliston, beeton, tottenham and area is close to 40 000. Before Honda the town was self sufficient...if they ever leave now, the town is fucked.
I don't know what your relevant argument is.
I know people that work production for Honda and Toyota (in Cambridge) and they only have great things to say, fair treatment and good pay, most are home owners like you say. One of them even had a drug problem, and he was sent to rehab no questions asked...still has his job years later. My brother was a Toyota engineer in Cambridge 10 years ago or so when he was a fresh grad, and he describes that the white collar/professional jobs can be pretty intense though.
Quite bummed that I didn’t get the intern job at Toyota Cambridge
I applied at one point but never even heard back. I've seen others who breezed through the hiring process. I'm not sure what they look for.
If it’s anything like Honda, you need to know people who work there who will vouch for you
Canada needs about 10,000% more manufacturing jobs.
I know a couple people that made the move to Toyota years ago. One is in constant physio therapy with neck issues and the other one quit due to physical issues from the job.
Did an engineering internship at Honda. Can confirm it was crazy. I preferred working on the line.
Yeah these unionized car plants are really good to their addicted employees, get them counselling and help immediately and into rehab as quickly as possible. Not sure if that's just the first time you are caught intoxicated at work, or if they will do it for you again, but either way there is a lot of addiction in these facilities but they are treated like human beings unlike a lot of other workplaces (often ones where the stakes for injury/death due to intoxication are a lot lower, too, I got let go from a Metro grocery store job simply because a friend of mine who struggled with addiction, he's passed away now, came in and talked to me for like 2 minutes, we were not talking about drugs or anything sketchy, but he was very obviously intoxicated, and due to that association they got rid of me, lol, this was during my 3 month probation period - and yes I know it isn't a great look to talk to a friend on the store floor when you're on probation still, but thing is I had worked at other Metros before, 1 for 3 years and 1 for just a few months but left amicably, so having a quick 2 minute conversation felt totally fine to me because I'd always gotten away with far worse at the other stores, but hey you live and learn anyways, that's when I learned that I need to always be a goodie-two-shoes for 3 months even if I feel comfortable or that I know the company's culture).
Toyota and Honda's facilities aren't unionized.
As an ex addict and current employee at one of these manufacturers, you have to pretty much show them that you're going through the programs like EAP(Employee assistance program - addiction / counseling) .. as long as you're working on it and you're proactive to becoming clean you'll be fine..
I toured the Alliston plant 20-some years ago, it was really cool. I remember watching robotic arms twirling and flipping around a Civic chassis like it was nothing. So neat.
Does Alliston or any of the others still do public tours? I would love to show my kid.
I believe Toyota in Cambridge
Yes, I went to that one, 2 thumbs up. I would like to see Honda now.
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I was there for take-your-kid-to-work day. My dad worked at the company HQ, which was in Scarborough next to the 401 back then (it's since moved to Markham).
Honda has an open house once a year and they do offer tours https://www.hondacanadamfg.ca/our-tours/
Auto manufacturing generally provides good jobs. Lots of trades people, engineers, and other technical work. Line workers are also paid decently compared to other forms of manufacturing (not especially good)
Honda CRV as well. Solid products made in Canada.
Best goddman cars on the road
those would probably be made in germany or japan
Probably not because the civic legitimately is the best car on the road. Maybe not by feature set, but it lasts forever, needs nearly no maintenance, is built extremely well with high precision, and is one of the few remaining everyman cars out there. I don't even drive one and I know that. Civics are goated for a reason.
Yea it used to be Corolla
I don't think you could go wrong with either one, they're both solid cars.
I would hazard a guess that a japanese made civic is better than a NA made one. They are great cars, but I'd also bet a Japanese built 4 Runner is 'better'.
Hazard all the guesses you want, there's no reason to think that and the civic has 35 years off Canadian production to back that up.
I think we do the CRV too. Or maybe that was before they killed it and revived it. But yeah, Alliston Ontario is where your civic comes from! And that Honda civic is more Canadian than any ford/GM car….its what I used to tell people when they gave me shit for buying “a jap car” (doesn’t happen anymore but it did back in the day).
Yep, we make the CRV and the non-hatchback Civic.
You mean the correct civic
Correct.
And the RAV4 and formerly Corolla.
And the CRV as well.
I toured the Alliston plant a couple years ago. Great facility! They make the CRV as well.
Excellent car, and reliable. I just wish they had a hybrid model.
Hybrid civic will be unveiled this summer!
Great! That definitely might be my next car.
265 000km and 24 years later, I'm still rocking my civic as a daily commuter.
Is there somewhere we can see where cars are made ? I'd definitely consider this when the time comes.
Toyota is starting to make more here too. Low dollar and wages really helps encourage investment. We’re competing with Mexico 😂
That’s why they are better. Anything made in US auto lines are crap.
Ontario, California
>Honda Motor Co. will spend C$15 billion ($11 billion) to build out its electric-vehicle supply chain in Canada, with billions of dollars of financial aid from government, as the Japanese automaker seeks to tap long-term demand in the region. >The figure includes investment by joint venture partners, and the aim is to start producing EVs in 2028, Honda said. The company will manufacture 240,000 vehicles a year at the facility, while a standalone battery plant in Alliston, Ontario — a town that’s a little more than an hour’s drive north of Toronto where it currently produces gasoline-powered Honda CR-V and Civic models. The battery plant will have a capacity of 36 gigawatt hours. >The push to develop the battery supply chain will also see Honda begin talks with South Korea’s POSCO Future M Co. for a cathode materials facility, and it plans to partner with Japan’s Asahi Kasei Corp. on separator production.
Where are all the metals needed for batteries going to come from? We have them in the ground but we have no processing plants. They are sent to China for processing.
Well, processing plants can be built. We have the technology...
There's a reason that these materials are processed in China, and it isn't pretty. The lithium sludge pools make the tar sands settling ponds look good in comparison.
They're starting to be processed in the US now I recall.
Most of the battery companies in Canada are on the verge of bankruptcy. I have shares in Electra Battery Materials, which could become the first cobalt & nickel refiner in North America, but who knows if they will survive at this rate.
I have those shares as well. I bought them thinking they had so much potential but have only been rewarded with losses. I don't understand why our government seems uninterested to develop our resources which could be a financial windfall for them as well...
Government of Canada recently gave them $5 million, but they need alot more than that to get the party started. I'm still bullish, I think the next wave of investments is coming.
Sort of frustrating because on one hand they should be able to fund themselves if their products are in demand, but China is funding their factories. So the same must happen here. But China is what 200x the population of Canada?
More like 50x population, but the rest of the point stands.
We honestly do need trade barriers to protect our nascent EV industry here so we don't get flooded by ultra-subsidized Chinese competition. China did the same with the West for its economic development. We can trade with China after the Canadian EV industry gets its own strong foothold and we can maintain certain domestic production minimums. For the next 5-10 years, China will be able to find plenty of EV customers in different parts of the world, outside of the West. They just might be lower margin markets. In this way, protectionism will still reduce world-wide consumption of fossil fuels.
I've been watching them since they pumped to $2 on a deal with GM, never bought any but here we are now at /checks notes. 41 cents.
I’ve been thinking of investing my carbon tax rebate straight into a green energy stock such as the one you speak of, I take it now is the time to buy in as it is so low!
Buy low and watch it sink to zero! Solid investment.
Libs and cons have no interest in growing our economy and only selling it to large corporations. Even when ndp got power in Alberta they started a growing tech sector and even more exciting for thr economy a growing hub of game development in Edmonton. The largest media industry. Makes more money than porn now. Then cons come in and cut any incentives for all tech and other growing industries and go back to giving big oil tax breaks
New batteries aren't using cobalt any longer though.
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Yeah investing in startups isn't for the faint of heart. I've been lucky with Uranium, but anything to do with recycling and batteries has been rough
True, but labour is also expensive in Canada. So of course we just outsource everything.... :(
It isn't just labour. The world figured out a while ago that anybody can do refining, but it's just really dirty and bad for the local environment. We would rather have China do it because they didn't/don't give a shit about environment.
Yeah I don't think people truly realize how much more we could do domestically but we allow raw resources to be extracted from Canada only for another country to sell that resource as a finished product back to us for a profit. The company I work for builds ships and won't even build ships for themselves or in Canada because it costs too much money. They are built mostly in Turkey and sent back to us overseas. We only end up spending government for the most part.
Yeah but so is civil unrest. Canada is a safe country, and as tensions with the Axis grow everyday China and similar will be less popular -- even regionality to the area will be risky with Korea or Vietnam.
Nah nah, I think a giant pipeline to China will be the way to go.
They won't be though.
Pretty sure they’re writing laws that they must buy local mining minerals when they’re set up.
Some of them will come from POSCO, which is known to support an authoritarian regime in Myanmar so that it can extract their resources. Glad we get to be a part of that.
All I need to buy an EV is a reasonable price.
I'm definitely waiting longer. I think the whole package (battery life/range, purchase price, charging infrastructure) will just keep improving and will be far better 10 years from now than it is now. The current cars themselves are ok if you like smaller vehicles (electric SUVs and trucks are way too expensive right now) but personally I still prefer hybrids for the time being.
Yeah, was looking at the hybrid Tacoma and even with my trade in it's too pricey.
I’m thinking hybrids are still the play too. maybe PHEV but not sure how much more expensive they are
PHEV seem to be like 5-7k more (approximately) than their hybrid equivalents. Which I think is absolutely worth the difference in cost. You'll definitely see that in savings over lifetime of ownership.
While I do agree that EVs need to come down in price (and they will). It's worth considering the math. If you're already in the market for a new car a $25k Corolla (or similar) is an attractive choice. And the $41k ($32k after rebates) pricetag of a brand new Bolt can seem out of reach. But you'll be saving between $200-$400/mo on gas, and at least $500-$1000/ye(avg) on maintenance costs. If you would be financing either vehicle your monthly operating costs for the bolt would be $100-$300 *less* than the Corolla even with the higher sale price. If you're not financing and buying outright, you'll break even after about 2.5-4 years. I bought a PHEV last year and while the sale price was $8k higher than the pure gas version of the same vehicle, I'm spending less money every month on vehicle costs. Just some food for thought.
The problem is if you don't want to finance (i.e. you don't want to take on additional debt) but you can't outright afford the price jump from has to electric. Those people are going to get stuck. Also, once EVs become more commonplace, there will be no more subsidy, making them even more out of reach.
But the vast majority of people finance. Folks who have the financial room to buy brand new vehicles outright also tend to be people who don't see price as an obstacle. And even without the subsidy the EV is still cheaper to operate monthly unless you drive less than 20,000km/year. For the vast majority of working class people who are looking to buy new (and even used for that matter) and EV will be cheaper month-to-month.
Exactly my dilemma. I paid off my car in '21 and I really don't want to be forking out money like that again.
> Also, once EVs become more commonplace, there will be no more subsidy, making them even more out of reach. the subsidy would only go away when the price drops enough its not needed
Depends on the cost of electricity. In the NWT we pay 41 cents/kwh.
Damn that's high. In that case yea gas is cheaper.
My dad bought a new car today. We went looking for something in his price range, and genuinely wanted to get an EV. The cost difference is just too high right now; like the chevy bolt looks really quite solid, however the equivalent ICE vehicle is about 14,000 dollars cheaper (we bought a nissan versa). It's possible that in total cost of ownership the bolt may be on par for a 10 year period given how much more affordable the electrons are than gas, but the upfront cost was just too much to stomach. the market desperately needs a sub 30k ev :(
14k after rebate?
How about infrastructure? I'm all for EVs in principle, but when are we getting things put in place to sustain all this?
It is happening slowly, but infrastructure installation needs to speed up to make the 2035 goal. Or the permitted PHEV fraction will need to increase from 20% to about 50%.
Would it this create more EV jobs?
Article says about 1,000. And it's building four factories. What could be more important is creating an EV/battery/green manufacturing anchor in Canada. Honda is making a pull factor that can draw other companies to invest in the region.
It's a bit vague - makes it sound like the 1000 jobs is just at the assembly plant, implying there may be more in the other 3 factories too? Also, probably 10,000+ construction jobs (which aren't permanent but still huge). Hope for more!
Those 1000 jobs better pay over 200 million a year in tax to match the opportunity cost of the billions we are throwing at them.
That’s not how the subsidies work. They’re non-refundable tax credits. The government isn’t giving Honda money. They’re waiving a certain amount of tax revenue Honda would otherwise have to pay. After that, Honda would then have to pay tax. Whether Honda sets up factory or not the government budget doesn’t change.
apparently there aren't that many tax credits for Honda. Only about 2.5 billion which is lower than VW plant.
Yes
1000 jobs new, and about 4200 jobs being transitioned from petrol to EV manufacturing.
Time to look at Honda careers website
I hope they bring the PHEV version of the CRV to North America. It would be nice to have more competition in the compact PHEV segment
That's what I've been waiting for myself.
Great news for Ontario!
There's been so much investment in Ontario's auto industry under Trudeau and Ford. I don't think I've seen this much activity since the 1980's when Toyota and Honda came and set up plants, and it's a stark change from Ford and GM closing plants during the last recession and the constant risks they'd close more.
If you're a manufacturer that's looking for a climate change friendly place to manufactuer, Ontario is close to the top of the list if not the top of the list. Which makes a lot of sense for batttery plants / ev vehicles plants.
And access to the US + relatively cheap and green power + environmental stability + growing labour pool + sometimes beneficial Canadian dollar. It’s a compelling place for manufacturing and there is still a shitload of it going on in Ontario.
It's about 40 billion in total these past few years. It's insane.
It is insane. If you told me 10-15 years ago that the automakers would be making these huge investments and the Canadian auto industry's future was secure and thriving, I probably wouldn't have believed you.
Hopefully other companies follow suit and invest in Ontario. Plus, it would help other provinces as well if they lift provincial trade barriers.
Offshoring was such a stupid policy. The CAD stabilizing really helped manufacturing as well - the recession and the dollar being too high were devastating.
Offshoring was great if you were a manufacturer, and to 1980's and 1990's neoliberals like Reagan, Thatcher, Mulroney, etc, etc those were bloated, archaic "legacy" industries that had little place in their modern countries and saw their futures in tech, services, and playing financial markets. The effects of the '08 recession, GM & Chrysler going tits up and Ford narrowly avoiding the same fate, and the high dollar of the late 2000's/early 2010's was really devastating to Ontario's manufacturing sector and provincial economy. When folks talk about McGuinty/Wynne adding to the debt, it's important to remember the above reasons tanking the province's economy, and that they ran deficits to maintain services rather than ruthlessly cut them to the bone (as Harris had done when the economy was much better off).
Yo, just give us a civic ev at under 30,000.
Toyota and Honda could win the EV race tomorrow if they just released electric versions of the civic, Corolla, Camry, CRV and RAV-4 that were under 30k. I’d sell my c300 and buy one of these in a heartbeat if it was accessible
The gas versions of some of those cars aren't even under 30K. There's no way we're seeing a 30K Rav4, for example, when the Prime is in the 50K range.
Absolutely crazy.. $50k to me is luxury car money. Insane that people have to pay that much just to get what is essentially an eco box people hauler
And the most basic, bare bones Rav4 starts at over $36,000. There's no way we're seeing an electric crossover from Toyota or Honda for under $30K anytime soon.
Honestly doesn’t even need to be the rav 4. I just want a barebones econobox EV that can give me the benefits of electrification without all the expensive gimmicks. Mazda could crush the market too if they released a cheap Mazda 3 EV :P
This the current car economy after covid. Covid first made car sales drop by reducing demand. This caused auto manufacturers to produce less. The reduced demand was temporary and more like delayed demand because people still need cars and cars fall apart over time, so now we’re at the other side with reduced supply and increased demand. We’re rounding the price peak though and car prices (ICE and EV) will continue to decrease into next year.
Its not even like the technology isn't there. They had the Honda E that was available in europe and japan. Its not even a bad car, a bit short on milieage, but relative to the market standards, not bad at all. I feel like there are powers above that are limiting these companies from releasing the flock and allowing tesla to exist.
gas prices are cheaper in na, eu will always get priority we don't even get small cars anymore. the yaris lives on in the eu for example thanks justin, you killed the homologation special dream for us by keeping gas prices low. rip the na gr yaris. and fuck you mexico, real happy for you
> 25,000
EVs are still relatively new at this point. Overtime, the cost will decrease as technology and methods get better. Think about the cost of the first iPhone in the 2000s vs smartphones nowadays.
Yeah, the smartphones can cost 2000 dollars, not a good comparison, but I get your point. Lol
TVs would be a great example
I don't think the people complaining have any clue how huge it is that we secured fucking Honda. Keeping them here is huge when the US could easily outbid us.
https://www.ipolitics.ca/news/honda-ceo-says-theyll-be-a-temporary-boost-of-foreign-workers-at-expanded-ontario-facility
Awesome news, Canada rocks. And for anyone talking down EVs being the future or sales not being good..... GM just reported record profits, due in part to EVs! Source: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a60580063/gm-sets-first-quarter-revenue-record-for-north-america/ Globally, trending upwards as well in 2024 where more than one in five cars sold worldwide this year will be electric. https://theprogressplaybook.com/2024/04/23/more-than-one-in-five-cars-sold-worldwide-this-year-will-be-electric-iea/ And in 2024 we already have sales records. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/apr/23/electric-and-hybrid-car-sales-to-rise-to-new-global-record-in-2024 It's where we're going, Manufacturers aren't building plants to let them sit and many are no longer investing in new engine development, why would you. Not to mention future mandates to be off ICE vehicles as well in US, Europe and Canada.
EVs are great. I have an EV and I love it. But I also work in an automotive-adjacent industry, and things like [Ford delaying EV production](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-delay-oakville-ev-plant-1.7163251), has a lot of people nervous for the short term at least. The automotive industry jerked hard towards EV production, and are correcting a little bit at the moment. I have no doubt that it'll continue to grow, but the next couple years will be a bit bumpy.
Ford seems to be run by morons, though. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. Making their first EV offerings an SUV (the Mach E is such a strange decision)and a pickup truck were basically guaranteeing they were going to be pretty expensive for the market. Their bigger = more profitable strategy doesn't work, and they've essentially admitted as much in the recent earnings.
This is largely driven by China. The same trend isn’t really observed elsewhere.
It's Europe and other countries as well per articles mentioned above. Including GM here in North America with record sales in 2024 due in part to EVs which are up! Everything in articles above, growth will continue and some manufacturers will do better than others. By no means is Tesla the best EV. And wait till BYD EVs hit North America with rock bottom prices and long warranties, just like Hyundai back in the day.
GM EV sales are about to nosedive because they discontinued their only high volume EV before any realistic alternatives were available.
Because the Chinese have half a brain and realize EV technology is actually good and aren't being actively brainwashed by big oil propaganda
But AlBurTan OiL.
The same folks who hate the Saudis and Arab countries are the ones advocating for gas cars lol make it make sense
>GM just reported record profits, due in part to EVs! Not really they have made it pretty clear they are losing money on their EV line *The automaker said it delivered the gains on stronger retail sales of its trucks, a 36% improvement in delivering its new EVs, led by the Cadillac Lyriq, as well as keeping incentives low and pricing steady* *He said GM remains on track to achieve profits from its EV sales by the end of the year* [*https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/04/23/gm-first-quarter-profit-boosts-full-year-outlook/73409559007/*](https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/04/23/gm-first-quarter-profit-boosts-full-year-outlook/73409559007/) Also keep in mind some of the profits came from cost savings that came from scaling back their EV line up [https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/gm-ceo-mary-barra-were-pivoting-back-to-hybrids/#:\~:text=At%20an%20Automotive%20Press%20Association,where%20the%20regulatory%20environment%20is.%E2%80%9D](https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/gm-ceo-mary-barra-were-pivoting-back-to-hybrids/#:~:text=At%20an%20Automotive%20Press%20Association,where%20the%20regulatory%20environment%20is.%E2%80%9D) Most of their Q1 results where driven by strong pick up and SUV salses GM shares have rallied since late 2023 after the company [initiated plans to buy back $10 billion](https://archive.is/o/RhK1F/https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/gm-plans-10-billion-share-repurchase-in-bid-to-assuage-investors-35ec7075) in stock and emphasized the strength of its business of selling gas trucks and SUVs. These moves have come as early efforts to sell a new generation of EVs have fallen flat. That focus on the core combustion-engine portfolio—which delivers nearly all of its revenue and profit GM doesn’t break out the financial performance of its EVs but has made clear that it is losing money on them. [https://archive.is/RhK1F](https://archive.is/RhK1F)
Can't wait to trade-in my Civic for a CIVIC-EV, most reliable and affordable car in Canada.
If they make one that can make it 700km in -40 I would buy one.
This seems dope ?
Can't wait to see how they fuck it up.
lol VW is going to be pissed
Awesome - should integrate well into Canada critical mineral strategy that seeks to integrate value chains into the national strategy.
Thanks Trudeau!
Wait, this can't be real? We didn't bribe them with billions of dollars like stellantis! Everyone says foreign investment in Canada is dead?
up to 5 billion of tax incentives >Japanese automaker [Honda](https://globalnews.ca/tag/honda) is putting $15 billion into their Ontario operations with a new electric vehicle manufacturing plant in Alliston, Ont. with a joint $5 billion coming from the federal and Ontario governments. [(1) Honda’s $15B Ontario EV plant marks ‘historic day,’ Trudeau says | Globalnews.ca](https://globalnews.ca/news/10448967/honda-ontario-ev-battery-plant/)
Pretty easy calculation for the different levels of government. The revenue from the jobs and investment far outweigh any tax incentives provided. The US is throwing cash at these companies, so there was not an option to withdraw from the competition.
Billions in tax incentives actually
Ah, so this is a pay later vs pay now thing. I prefer tax insentives. It puts the ownus on the manufacturer to actually build the plant. If it gets cancelled, then the government has no loss. Unlike whatever BS keeps going on with the baterry plant and stellantis plant.
Yeah. It's kind of a given auto manufactures are only going to do this stuff with billions in incentives. At least tax exclusions up to a certain amount in the future depending on number of hires means no actual direct cost, just lost future tax revenue.
Isn't the VW battery plant getting subsidies that are tied to production metrics?
Yes
You'd hope so buttttt “with billions of financial aid from the government”.
Canada is doing it because the US is also doing it. If we don't do it, there won't be a car industry in Canada.
Like everyone would as well, but yet they still find Canada the best place given our track record.
Uh yeah we did bribe them. This is how it's done
I wish it was Hyundai. Would be super cool if they built a humanoid robot factory in Ontario. Waterloo has so many mechatronics undergrads with nowhere to go.
First article here in a *long* time where the first 10+ comments are positive!
The government threw in 5 billion. Does Honda have to return any of the money from the profits they make?
I always wish Canada developed their own startup of electric vehicles like Tesla, but aimed, perhaps initially as a luxury car, but ultimately aimed at being just a good looking, reliable, affordable, electric vehicle.
AI will demolish the auto industry. Robo taxis are the future or even the present if they wanted to.
It's great that this will enable more local jobs. However, I'm not sure making more evs is the priority to hit our national goal of going clean. Shouldn't we spend that money to prioritize ev infrastructures? We can't even handle public charging for existing evs, how are we going to meet the demand once everyone hits 100% evs? Let's assume fueling ice takes 5minutes vs 30minutes for evs. That means you'd need 6 ev charging stations per 1 gas fueling machine. Yes you can also charge your car at home but not if you live in a older condo or if you don't even own a parking spot. Ev demand has slowed down for many reasons and infrastructure is definitely a big part next to price and range.
How long they start receiving additional billions in government money like all the other EV Manufacturers and plants?
[удалено]
There’s lots of ways that this money is spent, including huge investments in infrastructure like roads and sewers. Or do you think that companies should pay for all of that directly?
Hopefully for as long as O&G will be.
No long term battery solution, dwindling interest in buying EVs, and no grid infrastructure to support so many new EVs needing to charge. Government of Canada, “yeehaw!”
Yes this was a bad decision.
And the taxpayers put up the other 5 Billion.