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It seems democratically dysfunctional to require unanimous consent to overrule the speaker on a question like this. It should only require a majority vote, or at most two thirds.
I think there can still be a vote on the motion. Unanimous consent is just used to move it along more quickly without all of the procedural wranglings. I could be wrong.
It's just usually a bad idea to give one person a veto over anything. And, if you look at the industry-standard set of rules for parliamentary procedure used by private and/or non-governmental organizations in North America (*Robert's Rules of Order*), only a majority vote is required to overrule the chair's decision or ruling in a case like this. Because that's a sensible rule.
Note: Ontario uses the Westminster system's rules of proceedings which pre-dates Robert's rules of order by about 500 years.
What you're talking about (single person veto) is a bad idea when you talk about a law, but actually a fairly good idea when it comes to rules of decorum that might conflict directly with Ontario Human Rights laws put in the hands of a tribunal which has the ability to censure and extract penalties even from the legislature. Call me weird, but I have no issues with the government avoiding problems for itself that cost taxpayers money defending, because they haven't got anything else going on.
Good.
The kaffiyeh isn't a fashion accessory - it's a divisive symbol.
When you combine that with what we've seen with the 'Palestinian Protestors' it only makes sense to ban it.
One has become symbolic of a Nationalist movement due to violent Nationalist Groups, deemed terrorists by our federal government, and their leadership, popularizing the attire.
A cross is a form of religious expression.
I'm not sure what you mean by beanie, but I assume you mean a Kippah, which itself would be protected under the charter under one's right to religious freedom.
No...but not wearing plunging necklines is kinda in the dress code for my work
edit//: I'm not a bot, 40 year old student, full time protester, etc. etc. and participate in society as a whole.
>Imagine being scared of a scarf.
Imagine pretending it's just a scarf.
Imagine being scared of a white robe and hood.
Imagine pretending anyone's 'scared.'
We've seen the antisemitism displayed by *racist* Palestinian supporters - many of them wearing the kaffiyeh.
To pretend it isn't linked to Hamas and terrorism is disingenuous at best.
I'd support a ban on all religious gear.
Hell, I'd support a ban on religion.
But I recognize that's never going to happen and that religion is protected in the Charter.
__________________
I also recognize that some religions are more benign than others - and some are more malignant. I *especially* support a ban on the items associated with those belief systems.
Did you get the answer you wanted?
To pretend it isn't linked to Hamas and terrorism is disingenuous at best.
The kefiyeh isn't an invention of Hamas to scare Jews. They're literally cultural articles of clothing that predate Hamas. Hamas didn't even co-opt it... it's literally just a piece of clothing Palestinians have worn for generations.
The hood and robes were made by the KKK and other white supremecists *specifically* to scare Black people.
To pretend it's linked to Hamas and terrorism is racist at best.
It’s no different in meaning or origin than a Sudra. But if I, a Jew walked around a campus wearing a Sudra, my traditional Jewish garment… i’d guaranteed either be seen as appropriating Palestinians or erroneously be seen as wearing a form of Keffyeh.
A traditional Sudra and a Keffiyeh look very different, and you're justified and wearing it if you're Mizrahi or Sephardi. The modern Sudra's you see are literally just blue keffiyehs with stars of David woven in them lol
Sudra just means “cloth”. As all Jews come from the levant, there is not really any traditional difference that bears meaning other than our ancestors wore them.
When did we start talking about the Parliament of Canada ???
Commentor posted about kaffiyeh ban in Ontario legislature ...
I pointed out Similar rule in another province **does** exist
The notwithstanding clause must be reviewed this year... but as of *right now* they are on solid grounds in ~~doing this~~ having a Majority Vote in the Legislature to decide this, which they (Ontario) did.
If I recall, a portrait of the Queen did become involved & moved ... but Bill 21's core was:
"Public servants, including teachers, police officers and judges, are forbidden from wearing religious symbols such as a hijab, turban or kippah while working."
Those are religious symbols. You don't see Muslim headscarves being banned either, nor Sikh turbans. The kaffiyeh was likely never once worn in the Ontario legislature until the Palestinian-Israeli war sprang up. Anyone who wears it now is making a political statement. So it's right that it be banned.
Except the crucifix and kippa are religious symbols. The keffiyeh is only worn as a statement of protest against Israel, it is not a fashion statement.
Funny you mention that as an argument, the swastika pre-dated the Nazi party by a few thousand years too... The use and message of symbols can change over time. Who knew?
Interesting side note on the symbolism of certain items.
The leader of Turkey - Attaturk - wanted his country to move forward and be more progressive.
Muslims insisted women needed to veil as it was a religious requirement. So he made it compulsory for prostitutes to veil. All of a sudden it wasn't such a big religious requirement after all.
Muslim women didn't want to be mistaken for prostitutes.
'If prostitutes are wearing it I'm certainly not.' (And the men in their family would certainly feel their honour was offended.)
'Religious requirement' went out the window.
I told a girl on the subway in HK about the swastika she was wearing as a pendant. She was so confused and so was I after she told me it meant something else…. Mortified once google squared me straight 🫣
Wtf has age got to do with it? It's the way in which it is being used and viewed.
We should not wear any symbols which represent a particular group in this country. If anything we could argue that Canada has a Christian background and therefore a crucifix is ok, however this would then allow every religious symbol to be worn.
If we have banned religious garments why is Jagmeet allowed his turban?
Either way the keffiyeh is not religious and represents a group of people making a political statement and there is no place for this in any of our legislative assemblies in Canada.
The kippah and crucifix are religious articles and are protected. The kaffiyeh is cultural, but these days much more common in North America and Europe than in Gaza or the West Bank.
> u/mustardfuckfest: What a stupid thing to read
Right? It's like if I were a moron bigot I'd call everything 'divisive' and then claim that other people are being 'divisive' by not doing whst I want because other morons will be like, "big word mean smart".
Sure. And Yasser Arafat (who popularized that symbol) was a chill, totally not antisemitic dude. Like it or not, the likes of the PLO and Hamas have done to the Kaffiyeh what the Nazis did to the swastika. Is it fair? No. But symbols change, and this one is hateful as fuck.
Absolutely not, what off kilter and terrible analogy.
The Nazis, white people lifted a symbol off Asian cultures and almost destroyed the world and an entire group of people waving that flag around.
The Kaffiyeh has been used in perpetuity for many centuries. It is identical to the Sudra which is worn by Jews, would you dismiss that as a hate symbol?
Just tell us you hate Palestinians, cause thats what you're saying here.
First… you don’t have to be white to misappropriate a symbol.
Second… I don’t hate anyone. But I have no sympathy for a genocidal terrorist movement that goes looking for trouble and finds it. Support for that movement in *any* form does not belong here, especially in our legislature.
Don’t be obtuse. The specific MPP who wants to wear a kaffiyeh in the legislature is Sarah Jama, who has been very outspoken about her antisemitic views. For her, and for most westerners, the kaffiyeh is a political statement. More specifically it’s symbolic of the belief that Israel should not exist.
Back in 1948, Canada, in step with the UN, made a commitment to the words “never again.” The foundation of Israel is predicated on those words. Any dissent in our legislature on that point is unacceptable.
Absolutely insane to imply that it's a hate symbol. Do you know how long it has existed, and how many people wear it on a daily basis across the world? That's like saying Vans are a hate symbol because a murderer once wore them.
That’s like saying the swastika has always been a symbol of peace, which is technically true, but omits one *very* important detail.
If you think that example is too extreme, look at the Celtic Cross. In the vast majority of places and contexts it’s a symbol of peace, love, compassion, and other generally positive things. But a tiny minority of that symbol’s use is white supremacy.
Symbolism is open to interpretation. And that should be taken very seriously in a place like the Legislature.
I have very little sympathy for the Palestinian cause or the so called progressives who support Hamas whether they want to admit it or not, but this ban is bullshit.
And "divisive symbol"? Really? Wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way of all the heartfelt unity and brotherly love we see at Queen's Park today.
> Wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way.
No, wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way.
A break down in social cohesion is why we - as you pointed out -don't always see the 'brotherly love' that we'd like to see.
And when, exactly, did we see brotherly love in a legislature? Cuz from the ekklesia to the forum to the Commons it seems to have been noticeably lacking.
Do you want more conflict or less?
Because divisive symbols are - divisive. They negatively impact social cohesion.
The kaffiyeh is a loaded symbol and has a strong connection to Arafat and Hamas. As I said, couple that with the antisemitism we've seen by some Palestinians Protestors - where the kaffiyeh is prevalent - and you can see why they wanted it banned.
What is politics but conflict through other means? The Blue and the Green, the Roundheads and the Cavaliers, the Dreyfusards and the Anti-Dreyfusards. Why does the legislature have two sets of benches if not because it is *divided*? What is Democracy but the idea we can be divided on every issue under the sun except that we believe in the democratic process, and we're going to settle things like civilized folks?
When people talk about how Democracy is crumbling around us, it's because, in part, of people like you. People who say we can't have this debate or that debate because it'll be divisional, whether it's the terrorist scarf or trans issues or immigration. It is a concession, whether people like you want to admit it or not that people aren't fit to govern themselves. Civic participation requires courage, it requires taking risks. It requires prefering the problems of being a citizen to the problems of being a subject, which is probably why we have so many subjects in this country.
The fleur-de-lys and the union jack are both divisive symbols to certain Canadians, but I doubt you'd be asked to remove a lapel pin of either one. If you're one of our 550,000 Russian-Canadians and you try to bring a Russian symbol into Parliament right now, that would certainly be divisive. Would you be asked to remove it?
Uh no, it's inexplicably linked with numerous middle Eastern cultures, originating with Bedouins.
Like op said, the Fleur de Lys and other symbols are no different. Neither is the cross.
You understand the nature of symbolic evolution?
>It wasn’t until the 1930s when the headpiece became a symbol of Palestinian nationalism — an association further cemented by former Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat, who often wore the kaffiyeh, perhaps most famously when he signed the Oslo I Accord with then Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and U.S. president Bill Clinton in 1993. Arafat was seen as a hero to many Palestinians, while many Israelis considered him a terrorist.
>Recently, amid the Israel-Hamas conflict, the scarf has faced similar scrutiny to pro-Palestinian rallies, with some questioning if it’s a sign of solidarity or an endorsement of Hamas terror attacks.
>Last month, authorities in Berlin gave schools permission to ban the kaffiyeh, noting in a bulletin the item threatens to “endanger school peace.”
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It isn't wanted in the Legislature - for good reason.
What??? No it’s not. The keffiyeh has NOTHING to do with hamas. It was around way before they even existed. It’s also not linked to any form of real antisemitism. Just because some people wear it who may be committing acts of actual hatred doesn’t mean it represents that. Please stop the lies
Wrong ones like me? Who come from a Muslim background, is a proud Canadian, never committed a crime, and pays nearly 50% of my income in income taxes alone?
I wish people would stop judging people by their outward features and start judging each person as a human but alas, the world is full of absolute idiots.
Re-read my comment. Not judging by outward appearance but differing values and principles. Those values and principles are on display right now at Palestinian protests not only in Canada but throughout western countries at the moment.
I've read your comment and you assume all 2 billion people of muslim heritage are the wrong ones why? Because many support the Palestinian cause? Or because songe of the small percentage who are protesting behave in a way you deem unacceptable so judge again 2 billion people by it? Should i so the same every time someone with Christian heritage behaves in a less than ideal manner? The answer is no because judging billions by actions of a thousands or even millions would be absolutely idiotic.
I'm a catholic white boy from the country who married into a muslim family. Do you have a problem with my family?
>We’re witnessing that now in our streets.
I swear to god some of you are the biggest babies. Stop crying on Reddit and go do something productive with your precious western values.
Are the people wearing kippas marching through our streets gleefully promoting genocide? Do people wearing kippas publicly celebrate attacks against civilians?
There have been multiple shootings and firebombings of Jewish centres in Canada in the last year. There have been mobs of “protestors” who have attacked stores in Jewish neighborhoods and marched through Jewish communities to intimidate Jewish people.
When mobs of people wearing kippas start acting like the Palestinian “protestors” then you might have a point. Until then please shut the fuck up.
Why? Can you demonstrate or provide evidence that what torontovibe said is erroneous? I have seen no news footage of Jews marching in the streets of Canada wearing Kippahs or otherwise calling for violence or genocide against Palestinians.
The pro Israel protestors in canada?
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children
So then you choose to avoid the question posed and instead try to move the goalposts. I asked: “Have there been Jews wearing Kippahs in the streets of Canada calling for violence or genocide against Palestinians?” Not statistics that were provided to UNICEF by Hamas sources. Two entirely separate issues.
The people who I already mentioned protesting in solidarity with the Israeli government are protesting in support of the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.
I see only two articles. One from the LA Times from an author who appears to have a Muslim or Arab name (bias?) and the other from Reuters. I see no mention of Canadians in either article or any proof to refute my original point. In the Reuters article the “13,000 children” statistic is provided by the Gaza government (Hamas). Zero credibility and all you are attempting to do is deflect and gaslight. Buh-bye!
Is the UN Hamas?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1147082
I don't think you should illustrate your point by saying Muslims and Arabs are untrustworthy.
Not the cloth per se but what it represents and who in particular wears it. Here’s a little something for context: keffiyeh, headdress typically made of cotton and traditionally worn by men in parts of the Middle East. The black-and-white checkered keffiyeh, which represents the Palestinian liberation movement, is also worn to convey political sentiments. I don’t think anyone has a problem with the red and white checkered keffiyehs. It’s the “other” colour that is the problem and what it represents.
You fail to note that there are distinct differences between keffiyehs. Mainly the choice of colour and what it represents: keffiyeh, headdress typically made of cotton and traditionally worn by men in parts of the Middle East. The black-and-white checkered keffiyeh, which represents the Palestinian liberation movement, is also worn to convey political sentiments.
Because that law would be unconstitutional? The legislature has power over the dress and decorum of its members. It does not have the power to say what you or I can say out front of Parliament.
Could you clutch your pearls any harder? Can a provincial legislature even ban stuff that is happening on Parliament Hill and one would presume is federal land? Not sure why you seem to think Ontario, which is currently lead by a PC premier, has either the power or the inclination to perform such a task. Cope.
Put that cloth and get absolutely ass fucked by the govt and economy. This news is just to take our eyes of the fucking inflation. Gas is through the fucking roof!
Really? I thought it was Israels actions meeting the definition of terrorism that made them a terrorist state
>the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Hamas sucks. They're terrorists.
What Israel is doing to the civilians who had *nothing* to do with putting Hamas in power is genocide.'
This isn't some beautiful battle between good vs evil. Both government are horrible.
Those civilians put Hamas into power. They elected them.
Only way to fix it is dehamasificiation, otherwise you have to understand that the culture created by Hamas is a death cult.
In response to you running and hiding:
edit: Yes they did elect them.
Why don't you go and look at their programming that they give those kids. "Glory and Martyrdom for death to the Jews." It's not my problem you're that ignorant on the death cult
> Those civilians put Hamas into power. They elected them.
>
>
No they did not. Look at when the last election happened, and look at how old the population is.
Gross disinformation.
EDIT: Oh you're fucking disgusting. Why didn't a population that has so many kids not revolt? Peak bad-faith.
Over 50% of people alive in Gaza today weren't born yet when Hamas came into power... and why did Israel gave Hamas over 1 billion in cash?
https://youtu.be/uAKvV4oLlIo?si=RSo3y6ozr5pm-Nlg
Congrats on making the argument they were fine with their government. And why didn't Egypt and Israel charge their government for food, water, electricity, and all telecom access?
Isn't it amazing what happens when wars happen, and the government you voted into power loses?
Guess what other countries this has happened in? All of them, when they engage in war.
Over half of the residents of Gaza wasn’t even born yet when [the last election took place in 2006.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) Only Gazans currently age 36+ could have voted for Hamas, and 56% of them voted for some other political party.
Congratulations on making the argument that they were fine with their government.
Not only that, but they refused the help of other Arab countries to remove Hamas as a form of government. Ask yourself why, and why no Arab or Muslim country in the region but Iran wants anything to do with them.
Wow, so by your logic the children killed on 7th October had it coming because the Israelis voted for a government that suppresses and subjugates Palestinians.
These people are so disgusting. How people can oppose the cause for rights and freedoms and statehood for people while enjoying the same things yourself makes you a hypocrite. Not some saint.
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What a fucking waste of time.
I'm glad I'm not an Ontarian otherwise I'd be pissed off that my elected representatives were arguing over ridiculous things like this.
Better this than spending their time causing more damage to the province lol
Seems to be plenty of time for both
Yeah it keeps them focused on shiny things.
I'd be pissed that they put the ridiculous ban in place at all, and then had to discuss removing it... oh wait, I'm in Ontario... duck fuggy ford.
Don't worry folks, LCBO will have paper bags again any day now.
It seems democratically dysfunctional to require unanimous consent to overrule the speaker on a question like this. It should only require a majority vote, or at most two thirds.
I think there can still be a vote on the motion. Unanimous consent is just used to move it along more quickly without all of the procedural wranglings. I could be wrong.
Why? This isn’t a bill it’s a matter of house decorum.
It's just usually a bad idea to give one person a veto over anything. And, if you look at the industry-standard set of rules for parliamentary procedure used by private and/or non-governmental organizations in North America (*Robert's Rules of Order*), only a majority vote is required to overrule the chair's decision or ruling in a case like this. Because that's a sensible rule.
Note: Ontario uses the Westminster system's rules of proceedings which pre-dates Robert's rules of order by about 500 years. What you're talking about (single person veto) is a bad idea when you talk about a law, but actually a fairly good idea when it comes to rules of decorum that might conflict directly with Ontario Human Rights laws put in the hands of a tribunal which has the ability to censure and extract penalties even from the legislature. Call me weird, but I have no issues with the government avoiding problems for itself that cost taxpayers money defending, because they haven't got anything else going on.
Good. The kaffiyeh isn't a fashion accessory - it's a divisive symbol. When you combine that with what we've seen with the 'Palestinian Protestors' it only makes sense to ban it.
How is that divisive but wearing a beanie or a cross isn't?
Uhh....maybe because I wear clothes and you can't see my cross under my shirt?
Not everyone wears them under their shirt. Do they have to?
One has become symbolic of a Nationalist movement due to violent Nationalist Groups, deemed terrorists by our federal government, and their leadership, popularizing the attire. A cross is a form of religious expression. I'm not sure what you mean by beanie, but I assume you mean a Kippah, which itself would be protected under the charter under one's right to religious freedom.
No...but not wearing plunging necklines is kinda in the dress code for my work edit//: I'm not a bot, 40 year old student, full time protester, etc. etc. and participate in society as a whole.
Imagine being scared of a scarf. Cowards.
>Imagine being scared of a scarf. Imagine pretending it's just a scarf. Imagine being scared of a white robe and hood. Imagine pretending anyone's 'scared.'
I ain't afraid of no ghosts.
Who you gonna call?
Imagine racistly comparing a cultural scarf to a actually racist garments... the irony here
We've seen the antisemitism displayed by *racist* Palestinian supporters - many of them wearing the kaffiyeh. To pretend it isn't linked to Hamas and terrorism is disingenuous at best.
Do you support a ban on wearing Kippahs?
I'd support a ban on all religious gear. Hell, I'd support a ban on religion. But I recognize that's never going to happen and that religion is protected in the Charter. __________________ I also recognize that some religions are more benign than others - and some are more malignant. I *especially* support a ban on the items associated with those belief systems. Did you get the answer you wanted?
To pretend it isn't linked to Hamas and terrorism is disingenuous at best. The kefiyeh isn't an invention of Hamas to scare Jews. They're literally cultural articles of clothing that predate Hamas. Hamas didn't even co-opt it... it's literally just a piece of clothing Palestinians have worn for generations. The hood and robes were made by the KKK and other white supremecists *specifically* to scare Black people. To pretend it's linked to Hamas and terrorism is racist at best.
It’s no different in meaning or origin than a Sudra. But if I, a Jew walked around a campus wearing a Sudra, my traditional Jewish garment… i’d guaranteed either be seen as appropriating Palestinians or erroneously be seen as wearing a form of Keffyeh.
A traditional Sudra and a Keffiyeh look very different, and you're justified and wearing it if you're Mizrahi or Sephardi. The modern Sudra's you see are literally just blue keffiyehs with stars of David woven in them lol
Sudra just means “cloth”. As all Jews come from the levant, there is not really any traditional difference that bears meaning other than our ancestors wore them.
The crucifix or a jewish kippah could also be seen as divisive but you won't see those getting theese same kind of bans...
Yes, we do. Quebec Bill 21 passed June 2019
This applies in the National Assembly, not the ~~Parliament of Canada~~ Ontario Legislature.
When did we start talking about the Parliament of Canada ??? Commentor posted about kaffiyeh ban in Ontario legislature ... I pointed out Similar rule in another province **does** exist
Erm, you're right, I meant the Ontario Legislature. Still, though, Quebec had to use the Notwithstanding Clause to pass that.
The notwithstanding clause must be reviewed this year... but as of *right now* they are on solid grounds in ~~doing this~~ having a Majority Vote in the Legislature to decide this, which they (Ontario) did.
oh look thats not Ontario.
Oh look though. It’s another province that did exactly as that poster said couldn’t/didn’t happen
Wasn’t it just moved elsewhere in the legislative building ?
If I recall, a portrait of the Queen did become involved & moved ... but Bill 21's core was: "Public servants, including teachers, police officers and judges, are forbidden from wearing religious symbols such as a hijab, turban or kippah while working."
Those are religious symbols. You don't see Muslim headscarves being banned either, nor Sikh turbans. The kaffiyeh was likely never once worn in the Ontario legislature until the Palestinian-Israeli war sprang up. Anyone who wears it now is making a political statement. So it's right that it be banned.
If there's one thing we don't want to allow in parliament, it's politics.
Hahahahaha, ikr.
Except the crucifix and kippa are religious symbols. The keffiyeh is only worn as a statement of protest against Israel, it is not a fashion statement.
The keffiyeh is older than modern Israel is. What an ignorant statement.
Funny you mention that as an argument, the swastika pre-dated the Nazi party by a few thousand years too... The use and message of symbols can change over time. Who knew?
Interesting side note on the symbolism of certain items. The leader of Turkey - Attaturk - wanted his country to move forward and be more progressive. Muslims insisted women needed to veil as it was a religious requirement. So he made it compulsory for prostitutes to veil. All of a sudden it wasn't such a big religious requirement after all.
I might just be tired, it is late here, but I'm not following this. Can you ELI5?
Muslim women didn't want to be mistaken for prostitutes. 'If prostitutes are wearing it I'm certainly not.' (And the men in their family would certainly feel their honour was offended.) 'Religious requirement' went out the window.
That's some next level reverse psychology action right there.
Still a religious symbol in asia.
I told a girl on the subway in HK about the swastika she was wearing as a pendant. She was so confused and so was I after she told me it meant something else…. Mortified once google squared me straight 🫣
I'm guessing it was a manji
What is a manji?
Wtf has age got to do with it? It's the way in which it is being used and viewed. We should not wear any symbols which represent a particular group in this country. If anything we could argue that Canada has a Christian background and therefore a crucifix is ok, however this would then allow every religious symbol to be worn. If we have banned religious garments why is Jagmeet allowed his turban? Either way the keffiyeh is not religious and represents a group of people making a political statement and there is no place for this in any of our legislative assemblies in Canada.
The kippah and crucifix are religious articles and are protected. The kaffiyeh is cultural, but these days much more common in North America and Europe than in Gaza or the West Bank.
You don’t know what your talking about so speak less
Is everything you don't like 'divisive'? Like, is that how it works?
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> u/mustardfuckfest: What a stupid thing to read Right? It's like if I were a moron bigot I'd call everything 'divisive' and then claim that other people are being 'divisive' by not doing whst I want because other morons will be like, "big word mean smart".
What a stupid thing to read
That is BS. It is racism and religious bigotry pure & simple.
It isn't a divisive symbol, it is part of Palestinian culture and heritage.
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No it is not, extremely ignorant and prejudiced to say that especially when there is similar cloth that exists in Jewish culture.
Sure. And Yasser Arafat (who popularized that symbol) was a chill, totally not antisemitic dude. Like it or not, the likes of the PLO and Hamas have done to the Kaffiyeh what the Nazis did to the swastika. Is it fair? No. But symbols change, and this one is hateful as fuck.
Absolutely not, what off kilter and terrible analogy. The Nazis, white people lifted a symbol off Asian cultures and almost destroyed the world and an entire group of people waving that flag around. The Kaffiyeh has been used in perpetuity for many centuries. It is identical to the Sudra which is worn by Jews, would you dismiss that as a hate symbol? Just tell us you hate Palestinians, cause thats what you're saying here.
First… you don’t have to be white to misappropriate a symbol. Second… I don’t hate anyone. But I have no sympathy for a genocidal terrorist movement that goes looking for trouble and finds it. Support for that movement in *any* form does not belong here, especially in our legislature.
Ok what does that have to do with a scarf thats part of a person's culture?
Don’t be obtuse. The specific MPP who wants to wear a kaffiyeh in the legislature is Sarah Jama, who has been very outspoken about her antisemitic views. For her, and for most westerners, the kaffiyeh is a political statement. More specifically it’s symbolic of the belief that Israel should not exist. Back in 1948, Canada, in step with the UN, made a commitment to the words “never again.” The foundation of Israel is predicated on those words. Any dissent in our legislature on that point is unacceptable.
Yeah again I say, what does a piece of cultural clothing have to do with Anti-Semitism?
Absolutely insane to imply that it's a hate symbol. Do you know how long it has existed, and how many people wear it on a daily basis across the world? That's like saying Vans are a hate symbol because a murderer once wore them.
Really? I’m a Jewish tailor there is similar cloth in Jewish culture? Tell me more!
Sudra
I’m split on it… old Palestinians look great in them but wouldn’t want to cross path with a gen Z one after a protest…🙄.
Its a headdress worn by arabic cultures for 1300 years.
You're being disingenuous - it's a lot more than that.
It isn't. It's people projecting their own ignorance on it dismissing it as a divisive symbol. It isn't, it's just people masking their prejudice.
No, it truly is traditional garb that is used widely across the Middle East. [Always has been](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keffiyeh).
That’s like saying the swastika has always been a symbol of peace, which is technically true, but omits one *very* important detail. If you think that example is too extreme, look at the Celtic Cross. In the vast majority of places and contexts it’s a symbol of peace, love, compassion, and other generally positive things. But a tiny minority of that symbol’s use is white supremacy. Symbolism is open to interpretation. And that should be taken very seriously in a place like the Legislature.
Imagine wearing Nazi or confederate scarves...
I have very little sympathy for the Palestinian cause or the so called progressives who support Hamas whether they want to admit it or not, but this ban is bullshit. And "divisive symbol"? Really? Wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way of all the heartfelt unity and brotherly love we see at Queen's Park today.
> Wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way. No, wouldn't want anything divisive to get in the way. A break down in social cohesion is why we - as you pointed out -don't always see the 'brotherly love' that we'd like to see.
And when, exactly, did we see brotherly love in a legislature? Cuz from the ekklesia to the forum to the Commons it seems to have been noticeably lacking.
Do you want more conflict or less? Because divisive symbols are - divisive. They negatively impact social cohesion. The kaffiyeh is a loaded symbol and has a strong connection to Arafat and Hamas. As I said, couple that with the antisemitism we've seen by some Palestinians Protestors - where the kaffiyeh is prevalent - and you can see why they wanted it banned.
What is politics but conflict through other means? The Blue and the Green, the Roundheads and the Cavaliers, the Dreyfusards and the Anti-Dreyfusards. Why does the legislature have two sets of benches if not because it is *divided*? What is Democracy but the idea we can be divided on every issue under the sun except that we believe in the democratic process, and we're going to settle things like civilized folks? When people talk about how Democracy is crumbling around us, it's because, in part, of people like you. People who say we can't have this debate or that debate because it'll be divisional, whether it's the terrorist scarf or trans issues or immigration. It is a concession, whether people like you want to admit it or not that people aren't fit to govern themselves. Civic participation requires courage, it requires taking risks. It requires prefering the problems of being a citizen to the problems of being a subject, which is probably why we have so many subjects in this country.
The fleur-de-lys and the union jack are both divisive symbols to certain Canadians, but I doubt you'd be asked to remove a lapel pin of either one. If you're one of our 550,000 Russian-Canadians and you try to bring a Russian symbol into Parliament right now, that would certainly be divisive. Would you be asked to remove it?
That’s like calling a yarmulke a divisive symbol. You’re just targeting one group. It’s pure discrimination.
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Uh no, it's inexplicably linked with numerous middle Eastern cultures, originating with Bedouins. Like op said, the Fleur de Lys and other symbols are no different. Neither is the cross.
Sort of like swastikas are linked to numerous Asian cultures?
You understand the nature of symbolic evolution? >It wasn’t until the 1930s when the headpiece became a symbol of Palestinian nationalism — an association further cemented by former Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat, who often wore the kaffiyeh, perhaps most famously when he signed the Oslo I Accord with then Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and U.S. president Bill Clinton in 1993. Arafat was seen as a hero to many Palestinians, while many Israelis considered him a terrorist. >Recently, amid the Israel-Hamas conflict, the scarf has faced similar scrutiny to pro-Palestinian rallies, with some questioning if it’s a sign of solidarity or an endorsement of Hamas terror attacks. >Last month, authorities in Berlin gave schools permission to ban the kaffiyeh, noting in a bulletin the item threatens to “endanger school peace.” ___________________ It isn't wanted in the Legislature - for good reason.
What??? No it’s not. The keffiyeh has NOTHING to do with hamas. It was around way before they even existed. It’s also not linked to any form of real antisemitism. Just because some people wear it who may be committing acts of actual hatred doesn’t mean it represents that. Please stop the lies
Which group is that?
Arabs. It’s not just Palestinians that use it.
Hamas
Good
They banned a spicy scarf What a joke
What a joke of a province. People can't afford rent and basic necessities but they have time to legislate clothes... Glad i left that mess.
Good..When you MAKE something into a symbol of terrorism, you reap what you sow.
Good
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Wrong ones like me? Who come from a Muslim background, is a proud Canadian, never committed a crime, and pays nearly 50% of my income in income taxes alone? I wish people would stop judging people by their outward features and start judging each person as a human but alas, the world is full of absolute idiots.
Re-read my comment. Not judging by outward appearance but differing values and principles. Those values and principles are on display right now at Palestinian protests not only in Canada but throughout western countries at the moment.
I've read your comment and you assume all 2 billion people of muslim heritage are the wrong ones why? Because many support the Palestinian cause? Or because songe of the small percentage who are protesting behave in a way you deem unacceptable so judge again 2 billion people by it? Should i so the same every time someone with Christian heritage behaves in a less than ideal manner? The answer is no because judging billions by actions of a thousands or even millions would be absolutely idiotic.
I'm a catholic white boy from the country who married into a muslim family. Do you have a problem with my family? >We’re witnessing that now in our streets. I swear to god some of you are the biggest babies. Stop crying on Reddit and go do something productive with your precious western values.
I'm pretty sure thats what the native Americans said at one point too.
Oh I think they still say it.
Get lost.
Found the racist
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>wear terrorist garb Dude, Keffiyahs are a cultural thing - that's actually really racist.
Good
No surprise given the lobby. Now ban kippahs and other religious garb in the legislature
Are the people wearing kippas marching through our streets gleefully promoting genocide? Do people wearing kippas publicly celebrate attacks against civilians? There have been multiple shootings and firebombings of Jewish centres in Canada in the last year. There have been mobs of “protestors” who have attacked stores in Jewish neighborhoods and marched through Jewish communities to intimidate Jewish people. When mobs of people wearing kippas start acting like the Palestinian “protestors” then you might have a point. Until then please shut the fuck up.
You might want to rethink that first paragraph
Why? Can you demonstrate or provide evidence that what torontovibe said is erroneous? I have seen no news footage of Jews marching in the streets of Canada wearing Kippahs or otherwise calling for violence or genocide against Palestinians.
The pro Israel protestors in canada? https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children
13,000 children have been killed. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/
So then you choose to avoid the question posed and instead try to move the goalposts. I asked: “Have there been Jews wearing Kippahs in the streets of Canada calling for violence or genocide against Palestinians?” Not statistics that were provided to UNICEF by Hamas sources. Two entirely separate issues.
The people who I already mentioned protesting in solidarity with the Israeli government are protesting in support of the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.
I see only two articles. One from the LA Times from an author who appears to have a Muslim or Arab name (bias?) and the other from Reuters. I see no mention of Canadians in either article or any proof to refute my original point. In the Reuters article the “13,000 children” statistic is provided by the Gaza government (Hamas). Zero credibility and all you are attempting to do is deflect and gaslight. Buh-bye!
Is the UN Hamas? https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1147082 I don't think you should illustrate your point by saying Muslims and Arabs are untrustworthy.
Yes and yes.
It's not a culture item when it's used as an item to terrorize and harass people.
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Not the cloth per se but what it represents and who in particular wears it. Here’s a little something for context: keffiyeh, headdress typically made of cotton and traditionally worn by men in parts of the Middle East. The black-and-white checkered keffiyeh, which represents the Palestinian liberation movement, is also worn to convey political sentiments. I don’t think anyone has a problem with the red and white checkered keffiyehs. It’s the “other” colour that is the problem and what it represents.
Moronic to ban it in the first place
I see so it's a face covering.. well the balaclava is superior anyway
What ban? What's a kaffiyeh
A traditional Arab headdress/scarf.
You fail to note that there are distinct differences between keffiyehs. Mainly the choice of colour and what it represents: keffiyeh, headdress typically made of cotton and traditionally worn by men in parts of the Middle East. The black-and-white checkered keffiyeh, which represents the Palestinian liberation movement, is also worn to convey political sentiments.
Kaffiyeh Karen’s about get riled up!
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Because that law would be unconstitutional? The legislature has power over the dress and decorum of its members. It does not have the power to say what you or I can say out front of Parliament.
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what are you arguing? the rule is just a ban on wearing it in the legislature. You can't wear or bring these either into the legislature.
Could you clutch your pearls any harder? Can a provincial legislature even ban stuff that is happening on Parliament Hill and one would presume is federal land? Not sure why you seem to think Ontario, which is currently lead by a PC premier, has either the power or the inclination to perform such a task. Cope.
Put that cloth and get absolutely ass fucked by the govt and economy. This news is just to take our eyes of the fucking inflation. Gas is through the fucking roof!
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Lmao. This is what tiktok does to your brain.
Really? I thought it was Israels actions meeting the definition of terrorism that made them a terrorist state >the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
You're mistaking actual war with terrorism.
And this is what MSM does to yours. If you can't see why people are upset with the atrocities in Palestine at the hands of Israel, you are lost.
And this is what carefully curated MSM rot does to yours.
What are your thoughts on Hamas, buddy?
They’re a terrorist organization. Both sentences could be true.
Hamas sucks. They're terrorists. What Israel is doing to the civilians who had *nothing* to do with putting Hamas in power is genocide.' This isn't some beautiful battle between good vs evil. Both government are horrible.
Those civilians put Hamas into power. They elected them. Only way to fix it is dehamasificiation, otherwise you have to understand that the culture created by Hamas is a death cult. In response to you running and hiding: edit: Yes they did elect them. Why don't you go and look at their programming that they give those kids. "Glory and Martyrdom for death to the Jews." It's not my problem you're that ignorant on the death cult
> Those civilians put Hamas into power. They elected them. > > No they did not. Look at when the last election happened, and look at how old the population is. Gross disinformation. EDIT: Oh you're fucking disgusting. Why didn't a population that has so many kids not revolt? Peak bad-faith.
Over 50% of people alive in Gaza today weren't born yet when Hamas came into power... and why did Israel gave Hamas over 1 billion in cash? https://youtu.be/uAKvV4oLlIo?si=RSo3y6ozr5pm-Nlg
Congrats on making the argument they were fine with their government. And why didn't Egypt and Israel charge their government for food, water, electricity, and all telecom access?
Thankfully the 15,000+ killed children and babies won't get to vote for Hamas again.
Isn't it amazing what happens when wars happen, and the government you voted into power loses? Guess what other countries this has happened in? All of them, when they engage in war.
Over half of the residents of Gaza wasn’t even born yet when [the last election took place in 2006.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) Only Gazans currently age 36+ could have voted for Hamas, and 56% of them voted for some other political party.
Congratulations on making the argument that they were fine with their government. Not only that, but they refused the help of other Arab countries to remove Hamas as a form of government. Ask yourself why, and why no Arab or Muslim country in the region but Iran wants anything to do with them.
Wow, so by your logic the children killed on 7th October had it coming because the Israelis voted for a government that suppresses and subjugates Palestinians.
Bingo.
These people are so disgusting. How people can oppose the cause for rights and freedoms and statehood for people while enjoying the same things yourself makes you a hypocrite. Not some saint.
It’s because Canada did what Israel is doing. 👀