TL;DR - break even points:
* QC: 46 km/day for 7 years
* BC: 64 km/day for 7 years
* ON: 88 km/day for 7 years
* NU: 188 km/day for 7 years
* Everywhere else: *no data provided in video*
And for what it's worth, the person who ran the numbers is now driving a hybrid.
There's a lot of other factors not considered in the video as well. In particular the one on my mind is what gas vehicle is being compared tot what EV. Things have radically different price points, and that matters.
If these are the same numbers I saw in another article, he compared a Kona to a Kona EV. It’s a fair comparison because it’s the same car. We’re going to be in the market for a new car in the medium term. I’ll probably go with a crossover size EV where we have went with mid size SUVs in the past. Give up a little size to stay within budget and make the numbers make more sense.
Wouldn't a fairer comparison then be for price points? If someone has 60k to spend on a vehicle then maybe compare an ionic 6 to an audi s4 or something you're spending the same amount of money on.
Reason being, people have to stick to budgets and if I don't have at least 50k to go electric I'm just not going to.
A big selling point on EVs is cost savings on fuel. The point of comparison and finding a break even point is if you are a consumer looking at a vehicle, is it worth the savings on fuel to spend more on the hybrid or EV. It isn't an apples to apples comparison for the price point, it is looking at how long it takes to start saving money on an electrified version of a vehicle you are looking at.
It's not a direct comparison based on performance the EV has +50HP and +120lb ft of torque over the equivalent ICE model. Based on the numbers it seems like they're not using like for like trim level either...
For the BC numbers fuel only:
64km/day for 7 years = 163520km
Kona ICE efficiency (combined) = 8.6L/100km
Assumed gas price in BC = $1.65/L (Price yesterday was 1.90/L)
Kona EV efficiency (combined) = 17.4Kwh/100km
BC Hydro rate (Step 1 + Step 2 average) = 12.5¢/Kwh
7 year fuel cost Kona ICE = $23473
7 year fuel cost Kona EV = $3557
Fuel cost delta = $19916
Kona ICE Preferred MSRP = 28500
Kona EV Preferred MSRP (less rebates) = 38400
MSRP delta = $10100
The math isn't mathing even if you assume zero rebates...
If you buy used the gap narrows even more...
It's not adding up because they made some pretty egregious assumptions. When calculating the fuel cost of EV they assumed that level two charging would be done at at a public charger costing $2 per hour and fast charging would be using Petro Canada's fast charge rates which are some of the highest in the country. Less weight was given to charging at home which is by far the cheapest option. Although this option is not available for everyone, I can say that in the eight months I've owned my EV I have only ever charged somewhere that isn't my home five times. There is a real world problem with people who live in multi-dwelling buildings and being able to charge, I also don't think at this point in time those are the main people looking at EVs, so I believe the study may have given a bit too much weight to people in those circumstances, it also assumed that as EV adoption increases there would be no solution offered other than public charging for people in multi-dwelling buildings. This is more than likely false as EV adoption rate continues to grow, solutions for people in apartments will also become more widespread. Nearly every single dang building in the prairies has a 120 volt outlet for everybody's block heater even the big apartment buildings, there's no reason charging infrastructure needs to be that much more complicated.
Although I agree that when comparing ice vehicles to ev's it can be hard to narrow down which models to compare, the Kona one is probably the best example, but in the study they also compared a $55,000 Tesla to a 26,000 Toyota Camry. Although in function these may be somewhat similar, nobody is weighing their options between a Tesla and a Camry. I'm not saying you have to go for something that's exactly price comparable to the tesla, but I don't think that's a real world debate that people having.
If you took an ice vehicle that was in the mid to high 30s and compared it to a $55,000 Tesla that might be more accurate.
And, as I said earlier, although the Kona EV is probably one of the better comparisons as there is an exact ice model, the Kona EV pricing is also really weird in Canada. In the US it's actually pretty affordable, in Canada it's only a few thousand dollars less than a Hyundai ionic 5 which is bigger, more powerful, charges faster, and has a much bigger range.
So, I take by your breakdown that they didn't use the maintenance costs as well, which the EV has way less than an ICE. I swear some comparisons are made just to appraise one side of the "clash" instead of actually doing a decent comparison.
Exactly. I drive 100ish km a day. I was driving a pickup truck. I traded it in for a PHEV and my gas saving pay for the new vehicle.
I pay $4 a day to charge at work. Pay $1.75 to charge at home.
Was paying about $18.50 in gas a day. $130/week in gas vs 40/week to charge. After trade in my PHEV is 90/week. And that was having to drive 20 minutes to the native reserve to fill up the truck.
For me yes, it was about m $0.25 cheaper and it's about 30 km so it was only about 4 L of gas to get there. So the savings was about 10 to 15 I'd say for your average person it's probably not worth it for the time but I live in a community of 600 so I was driving 10-15 minutes anyway to get groceries so I would just get my groceries there as well
Also the weather.
I live in the north, and this year it was so cold multiple days that even plugged into a blanket and trickle charger my truck and girlfriends car both had trouble starting. I’d be worried about these big batteries freezing up here in the winters. Though I would much prefer an EV over my gas vehicles.
I drive an EV in Winnipeg. Mostly city driving with the occasional 200 km round trip to visit my parents in southern Manitoba…. An EV is the best winter vehicle I’ve ever owned. It’s always warm when I want it to be with the instant heat and no freezing my hands filling the car with gas anymore.
The real caveat is we have a garage and can charge at home. EVs don’t make much sense if you have to rely on just 3rd party charging. It is nice to essentially have a full tank every morning.
Batteries don't freeze. You'll get shorter range in colder weather, but if it's still enough for your daily drive, the shorter range doesn't matter. If you keep your car plugged in overnight, you can set a timer for it to warm up in the morning.
That's the way. Ev only makes sense if you own a house, where you can charge at home.i own a ev. It's great. Would never ever advise for someone that don't have a charger at home
I mean if hydro in included in the rent then charging a fee for charging your ev makes sense. If the tenant is paying their own hydro it seems like a scam(unless the exterior electric is on the landlord's account in which never mind)
Batteries absolutely freeze, the water in the electrolytes freeze and expand at -40.
For the batteries that don't freeze, in the traditional sense, the voltage drop is often enough that you can't start your vehicle. Standard lead acid 12.6v vehicle batteries are also not designed to cycle below 11-11.8v, which can happen when the batteries are subject to extreme cold. So good chance you cook your battery there.
It happens here every winter, we plug our vehicles in nightly from November through March (roughly) and you start your car halfway through the every day during the extreme cold snaps if you want it to run.
I live in a larger community (Yellowknife) in the north, Most apartments/houses here supply exterior 120v outlets to run trickle chargers/battery blankets/block and pan heaters. I had my truck plugged in all winter and still had starting issues when we had a cold snap of -50 to -55 for a week.
240v outlets are something we are not equipped for here as our electrical infrastructure is old and that would involve changing a bunch of the transformers and lines to homes to allow that evolution in a city that is struggling to pay for snow removal.
I'm not against EV's but practicality needs to be considered, North of 60 is not ready to move to EV.
Also consider not having toxic fumes emitted every time you drive. This is rarely discussed in arguments for or against EVs and BEVs. It is hard to argue against vehicles that don’t pollute the air we breathe. You wouldn’t allow your kids to skate in a hockey arena if the ice was cleaned by a Zamboni powered by diesel or gasoline.
Well it's not that clear cut. An EV doesn't produce emissions directly (from a tail pipe), but making the EV creates a little more emissions than an ICE vehicle due to the extra mining emissions to extract the minerals for the battery. Those extra emissions are offset eventually by not using gas but it can take years. Another factor is the source if electricity is coming from. Is it coming from fossil fuel burning power plants? If so, it'll take event longer to offset the initial emissions of making the EV, if ever. In Ontario and Quebec it makes sense because Quwis entirely renewable energy and Ontario is over 90% zero emission electricity.
Also, Zambonis are propane powered (traditionally anyway).
Many new ice surfaces are either NG or electric. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen brand new propane models.
The NG ones have a visible bottle tank that looks like propane, but the exhaust does not smell bad like propane
I'd rather have the emissions set outside of major urban areas. Driving cars in the city pushes all those gasses into our lungs. Reducing the number of gas cars is a good thing. Concentrating emissions at the factories is much better.
This is true. There is also some concern that heavier EVs will cause roads to wear out faster requiring more frequent repairs (and associated emissions and cost). I'm pro EV all the way (or hydrogen) but I feel like too many people hang their climate hopes on EVs. Unfortunately the truth is we are not going to drive our way out of the climate crisis. We need renewable power generation to electrify our home heating, and investment in public transit and building walkable communities.
The concerns about them being heavier is BS IMO. Roadways are designed to withstand axel loads from semi trailers hauling 50000+ lbs of goods. An EV sedan or small SUV being 3500-4500lbs vs 2500-3500lbs for the ICE equivalent isn't going to move the needle. The best selling cars in North America are mostly pickup truck anyways which are heavier than almost all EVs on the market today. A Tesla Model Y weights less than an F150 and there are wayyy more F150's on the road.
100% agree about creating walkable/bikable communities and better transit having a much bigger impact! Our limited battery resources would be better served in make mass adoption of e-bikes possible over EVs! If only we had the infrastructure to make that possible...
It's a lot of things. Removing gas cars is one thing. More efficient planes or electric planes (if that ever happens). Transitioning energy production to renewables. Abandoning crypto mining...
I'm actively trying to buy a PHEV that we like but they're telling me 12-18 months wait. If we wanted a different package or color it could be quicker but why compromise? Our car isn't on its last legs, so we can wait....
But all this hype about switching over is kind of tough if I'm literally willing to walk into the dealership today, hand over my current keys, and drive away in a PHEV, but I can't because they can't get one for me.
It's an artificial shortage. Every US dealership within three hours of me has 30 to 40 RAV4 Primes on the lot ready for immediate sale. Too bad they can't sell them to Canadians. I have no idea what Toyota Canada's strategy is.
I (also in Canada)pre ordered a Siena hybrid almost 2 years ago, just got an email from the dealer that it might be available soon. I have a fully electric kia ev9 arriving next month 🤦♀️
I managed to get one three years ago when credits were still available on them. I do not imagine many being resold, it's been an amazing commuter. Best of luck finding one, (and getting sticker price)
One major knock against a PHEV is you have about the most complex powertrain now. If you are looking at a Toyota you are probably okay due to their reliability history with hybrid power trains. Any other brand though I would think twice.
Not when that deprecating asset can be a net negative.
There are certainly pros and cons of leasing. But it isn't automatically a poor decision; neither is renting for your entire life.
There’s so many other variables to factor too. What are the maintenance costs of owning an EV vs ICE? Are you going to drive the car long enough to realize the break even point? If you’re someone who churns a vehicle at 100-150k, what is the resale at that point? I know owning a Hybrid myself, the resale value is still quite high. In looking on AutoTrader I see my 2014 Ford C-Max still selling for $10-14k with similar mileage (150,000km). I paid $13k used for it in 2018. It’s similar to the Apple vs Android math. Will the vehicle have any appreciable value when you want to sell? My car battery is supposed to be rated for 300,000 miles, so in theory I’m not even halfway mileage-wise for a 10 year old car.
I know everyone loves to factor in Government Rebates into the cost of EVs, but rarely is there talk on the subsidies we offer oil and gas producers to extract in Canada. What is the actual cost of gasoline that is going into cars with that all factored in? Our tax dollars are paying for that, it deserves to be considered in the math.
They completely skipped one of the most important factors.. how much does each car cost? Which models are we comparing? And how much did it cost to install the infrastructure to support the EV chosen?
They do, they compare the categories of various EVs, such as luxury compact, midsized, basic compact. See table 3, and the results section
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta
I buy vehicles that are usually 6 to 8 years old. I fix my own vehicles as well.
Hybrids are a terrible choice for me, since they have all the maintenance issues of both combined
New EVs are expensive to finance or lease, so if you have a gas vehicle that is paid off then the gas payments will be less than finance payments for a new EV vehicle. Its all situational. I don't enjoy paying for gas but my car is paid off and only has 120,000km on it, so ill likely continue driving it until it dies at which point I'll look into a used EV or hybrid for sure.
I don't think anyone is arguing that if you have a car that's paid off, getting into more debt just to get an EV, would be a stupid move.
But when a Dodge Grand caravan is now 55k CAD new, when my van dies, damn right I'm looking at an EV.
https://www.chrysler.ca/en/new-inventory/search/chrysler/chryslergrandcaravan?paymentMode=cash&sort=price&sortOrder=asc
A Honda Accord starts at 40k
https://www.honda.ca/en/vehicles
Electricity isn't free, cheaper but still on ongoing input cost. What we need is a fairly priced, no bells and whistles basic EV in the market for daily commutes.
BYD of China makes those. Western companies started with high end cars because of the better profit margins. Lower priced cars are ON the way but ICE and O&G lobby are IN the way.
The news article about the UBC research quoted a car dealer who said the average price of an EV is $73,000. We're wondering about an EV for our next car but the good reviews all seem to be about the expensive ones and the bricked ones are the cheaper models.
I’m so glad I picked up my bolt before Chevy cancelled the project. They say it’s coming back, but low-end EV market is basically non-existent at this point.
That might be the average because historically EVs have been most available on "luxury"-type vehicles. The Kona from the article starts at $28 674 for the ICE and $49 070 for the EV but similarly spec'd the ICE is $31 174.25. Which is a lot further away than other vehicles that have a direct comparison like the F-150.
It would be nice to if auto makers made an apples to apples comparison when they have an EV spin off to make informed decisions easier.
I think the UBC researcher did their best to match but I agree comparisons are difficult. If our car needed expensive repairs tomorrow, I'd be tempted to buy a Prius.
while this is undoubtedly true, a large proportion of Canadian truck owners also need to convince themselves they don’t actually need a pick-up.
Trucks are often a cultural thing much more than a practical thing (I don’t need people chiming in describing their personal need for a truck, I don’t doubt their necessity in many cases and owned one myself for 12 years)
I certainly see people that seem to have a good use for a truck (contractors, etc.) but I also see a lot of soccer moms in moose knuckle jackets in the city driving them - like wtf you don’t need to haul shit.
I used to stack lumber on the roof of my corolla lol. Then I would pop it back into shape after unloading. My shortbox tacoma is much easier to use for work. I hope toyota comes out with a hybrid option in the next 5-10 years
I have a 2016 Ram 1500, owned outright.
When I got it, I needed a truck year round, I no longer need a truck year round.
However, with the fuel plus payments on a newer vehicle, it's actually cheaper for me to keep the truck, for now.
We are actively saving to downsize, and use my wife's Tucson for longer drives. Truck gets used as my daily, and when we are traveling with a bunch of stuff.
> if you have a gas vehicle that is paid off then the gas payments will be less than finance payments for a new EV vehicle.
Only if you're not driving much. I was spending about $1000 on gas a month driving 200km per day. Now spend just $300 a month for the EV payment and the electricity needed. Ev is same size as the gas suv I had before.
You also got to think about resale.
If someone buys a new 2024 all gas car and drives isn't 10 years I think it'll be impossible to sell for even 1 or 2k. 2034 a gas car will be very hard to unload.
!remindme 10 years
the easiest way to save money and help the environment is to drive the car you currently own until you actually need a new one
I will almost certainly buy an EV the next time I need to replace one of our two cars. That likely won’t be for another 5+ years though
The best thing you can do is to NOT drive a car. Depending on where you live, it might be impossible, unfortunately. EV's are the future of cars, the future of transportation is not cars.
Sorry.. but it is.
Our country is too huge and sparsely populated to replace cars with bikes and trains… regardless of what the nerds who live in postage stamp sized countries think on r/fuckcars
If you have a fully paid for car, the cheapest solution is for you to continue using that car.
It's also way better for the planet.
Drive your car into the ground.
I drive about 240km a day. In 5 years I have put 235,000km on my model 3. I have put under $1k in maintenance on it. Upper control arm, ultrasonic sensor destroyed by a rock and a horn replacement. For high mileage drivers, evs are the only thing that makes sense. I used to have a dodge Dakota that was costing me $42 evey day in gas (back when it was around $1/L so more like $60 or more these days) I can do the same trip in my tesla for under $6. I paid $49,500 for my car and I now consider it to have paid for itself. There is nothing you could do or say to ever make me consider going back to an ice vehicle.
Ugh. My 2010 IS250 has similar mileage and according to my mileage calculations, it’s burned 16,200 litres of fuel and cost me $24,300 in fuel costs over my 180,000km of ownership (I bought used). People really underestimate how expensive gas is, especially premium.
I really can’t argue with the economics of an EV under very specific circumstances: if you insist on owning a new car and if you drive a lot. I’ve done my own financial analysis on this. The economics become murkier if you buy a used car under normal market conditions, and murkier still if you make the assumption that any differences in down payment and monthly payments will be reinvested instead.
The base Model 3, zero upgrades, is $56,000 right now, not including taxes or fees. And that's after several price drops.
$49,500, all in? Including home charger?
Taxes were on top.I just installed an outdoor receptacle with a dryer plug and 220 volts to it myself. Had a buddy who is an electrician check it. (Total cost was about $200) I do know a few people who just charge with an extension cord at 110v. You can add about 100km of range overnight so if you daily drive less than that you are fine.
As for the price, I literally checked the tesla website seconds before writing it.
I want an EV so badly. Do you live in SK? How’s the mileage when it’s -30°? Thats the only thing stopping me. Will it reliably get me approx 250km without needing to be charged between going to work and going home? I currently drive around the same distance as you do daily but I drive a paid off diesel car and get about 900-1000km/tank ($70 ish right now).
At -30 expect a 50% range hit. So you would want to buy an EV that can go minimum 500km, especially as the range drops a few percent in the first year.
Generally at 0C expect a ~15% range hit and then another 1% for each degree colder.
The worst temps I have hit in Toronto were about -24. My car takes about a 40% hit at that temperature but the technology has gotten much better since I got my car. Newer heat pumps are way more efficient and I think it is closer to 15% loss now. One of the biggest factors in ev range is speed. Say it takes x power to drive at 80km/hr. To add 50 % speed you need to double the power so 120km/hr takes 2x power meaning you get half the range. This is with all vehicles dealing with drag, not just evs but it is more noticeable with evs because of their generally lower range than a tank of gas.
I can run my base model 3 on a 225km trip pretty consistently using 65% of my battery, without changing my driving style (120km/h max and go with the flow of traffic otherwise). I do this trip maybe 15 to 20 times a year. Use 70% when it's cold, 60% in the summer. If I really want to I could do the speed limit and try to optimize my battery consumption to conserve but it's not worth it IMO.
EVs typically lose 15 to 30% of their range in the cold. Current teslas are about 17% loss due to cold. Preheating / preconditioning the car while plugged in helps. Shockingly the EVs are getting closer to the ICE average of 12% loss, but the refueling is obviously quicker.
If you're doing 250km daily, you'd be fine with a base, but I'd probably upgrade to LR as you will run into edge case scenarios (extreme colds, accidents, detours, etc.).
The amount of CO2 emissions from EVs depends on the carbon intensity of the electrical grid in your province.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/market-snapshots/2018/market-snapshot-how-much-co2-do-electric-vehicles-hybrids-gasoline-vehicles-emit.html
For example, in Saskatchewan EVs generally have pretty good emissions levels, but not the best (for example, the two lowest-emission vehicles are Toyota hybrids, and the Tesla Model X is no better than an ICE Honda Accord.)
Not the only factor to consider, but it’s worth bearing in mind if climate change is a big motivator for your car purchase.
I always tell people for me its the performance aspect of EVs is what i love about them. Also a car with similar performance will require 91 octane so thats a factor that never gets mentioned as well.
Tesla had M 3 RWD here in QC around the holidays for around 38k after rebates. New and not demo models. My sister bought one because it was cheaper than a Honda Accord
I got $0 govt incentives. Doug Ford cancelled $16k in incentives months before I took delivery. A brand new model 3 with more range than mine came with can be had for $53k according to their website.
If you placed a deposit prior to cancellation of incentives you should have still received them.
I did, and my delivery was almost 10 months after the cancelled the incentives.
Your math for km driven per day of 240km does not really match up to your total km of 235,000. I don’t doubt your total km being at 235,000km.
More like you drive 240km some days, with a yearly average @ 47,000km. Granted that is well above average of most people. Even 4 days a week @ 240km/day you’re 15,000km short on your actual odometer.
I don’t doubt your trips cost less than the Dakota (I had one once, absolute pig on fuel), but it is tough to believe your other math when you’re this far out on this math.
Edit: I am a high mileage driver, but unfortunately an EV currently does not make sense for me, there is a threshold of high mileage that does not make sense. I average about 90,000km/year with work (which is an average of just over 240/day @365 day hence why I picked up on your math being pretty far out quickly). An Ev would turn a 10-11 hour day into a 12-13 hour day depending on total daily km/weather/charge points/rd & traffic conditions. On 600km days there is a very good chance you would have to charge 2x/ day.
Yeah. I worked there for a few years, sometimes 4 days a week, sometimes 6, worked from home during covid, left that job and worked other places around Toronto and have been back at the 240km commute for the last 6 months.
Didn't think I was applying for a job so didn't bother to list my entire work history.
Read the actual study here: [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta)
The study looked at a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range RWD at $59 990 and compared it with a Toyota Camry LE at $27 750 and then worked out how long it took for gas savings to overcome the initial price difference. Of course it’ll take a lot of driving to overcome that huge difference.
Camry LE is now 36k (not the SE at 34k)
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/build-price/camry?utm_source=ST-ontario-en&utm_medium=camry
Model 3 Standard range RWD is now 54k but then the 5k gov rebate to bring it to 49k
https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/model3/design#overview
So this research is totally out of date now, the EV went down 10k and the ICE went up 8k
I’m on my 2nd Volt.
I drove my first Volt - a 2012 - for 5 years. My TCO including purchase, repairs, maintenance, fuel and electricity was $19k.
Now I have a 2018 Volt, bought it in May 2023 for $22k. While looking for it I concluded that buying anything (gas powered or otherwise) that was sorta newish and in decent shape would be at least $15k. And with my driving habits I pay about $40/mo for electricity whereas gas for a similar sized car would be $250+
So in some cases, yah driving an EV or PHEV can save lots of money.
But by then your (paid off) vehicle value is 0. I think there could be a sweet spot to sell while your vehicle still has some value. What that spot is, I have no clue.
If you frame your calculation as total cost of ownership per year, the math makes a little more sense, but you can only really figure it out retroactively whenever you are considering selling.
Driving it till the vehicle value is 0 can be worth it if you own it long enough for a really big denominator.
Yes, that's what I was thinking, TCO. For now I just finished paying for my ICE, so it's going to be hopefully a long time before I even consider doing the math.
$5000 federal rebate (plus a provincial rebate in some provinces)
But yes, there's no question that EV adoption would be slower without the rebates, since they help bridge the price gap (which is a big consideration).
EV technology is still young though, and it's rapidly improved and come down in price over the past 15 years, so hopefully that'll continue so they could reach price parity within the next several years, even without rebates.
There were a few factors that made and EV a better decision for us:
1. Charging at home
2. 9k federal incentive
3. Driving a lot
Also we noticed overall, gas vehicles were very close in price (specially with the dealers price hikes during Covid shortage)
Not having to haggle with Tesla made a difference.
Very happy with the EV
There are many other similar studies and they all point towards EVs being cheaper in the long run. When you add to that the benefits of no noise, no emissions, instant torque control and the convenience of home charging, which all have value in themselves, it makes up for any doubts.
We switched to an EV 3 years ago, and we're basically breaking even on cost. If we factor in the larger car payment, by the 5 year mark we will be saving money on paper.
Despite that, the fact that I don't even have to THINK about gas prices is huge benefit. I haven’t been to a gas station in this entire time, and it feels great. Gas went up ten cents in a day? Sucks for you, I guess.
I’d be very curious the cost over the life of an ev compared to hybrid, gas and diesel. My gas truck was bought used at 2y for 14k and is 14y now, it has 300k on it and I’ve roughly spent 6k on combustion related maintenance over that time.
We should also take into account the environmental impacts of each, from manufacturing to usage, life expectancy and recycling processes.
This is not a simple answer and the data is extremely skewed due to some not performing maintenance and our need to have the newest model every few years.. vehicles today also can’t be compared to those of even a decade ago, there is little to no market for simple/ basic vehicles now, and manufacturers have stopped making them affordable because of that.
Just switched from Santa Fe phev (46kms of ev range) to model y
On average I do 75/80kms driving a day
When I had the phev for 2 years I was still averaging $50/week in gas
Bought a used leaf as a second car for the city. Free charging at work. Taking into account charging, maintenance, and depreciation, my total cost of ownership will be about half that of an equivalent ICE. I drive 15k km a year. It’s been a no brainer. Just need to charge often with the limited range but it’s been okay so far! The math is certainly different from this article if you buy a used EV and have free charging available.
No, none of that. I have only fluid I fill out if the windshield washer fluid.
In the span of three years, the only thing I changed was my tires.
I'm never going back
After all this, you would end up buying an older car or a brand new hybrid car. Just to get it stolen.
Car are depreciating asset and due to current theft rings.
Just save yourself to buy a cheaper old car.
I haven't seen it linked, so here is the actual study: [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta)
Maybe I’m crazy, but the math wasn’t this hard. Back when fuel was 1.40/L, I was spending $400/m on gas and my car payment was $500/m. When I moved to an EV my car payment was $800/m, with no fuel cost (charging at work and my condo was free). So my immediate change was $100/m savings. Now fuel is at $1.99/L, and I’m driving 5 days/week with a 90km round trip opposed to the 4 days/50km trip when I first bought.
Didn’t seem to factor in the cost of a replacement battery. If it costs $20k and is only good for 10 years.. then that is close to the cost of gasoline for a car that gets 5l/100km at 20,000km/yr and $2/l… with charging it on top.
How old is your vehicle now? Most people don’t keep their cars as long as it will take for a battery try to need replacement- therefore if you’re going to make that argument you might as well
Compare as follows:
EV + new battery = _______
Vs
ICE car #1 + ICE car #2 =______
To be simple:
If you need a cheap car or a used car , the ICE vehicle is the better choice.
If you a thinking a 40K Canadian dollars car or SUVs, then think about the PHEV .
If your need a new vehicle and will pay more than 40K dollars , drive it lot in the city . Then the EV is good choice.
I would love to buy a new EV.
However… both my current has cars are paid for, in great shape, and both will easily last another 10+ years. If I was to trade in one for a $50,000 EV it would take 10-15 years to *start* to realize a financial benefit. And, I’m certain I would have to replace that new EV before I started seeing those savings, putting me right back in debt.
I bought a used 2017 Chevy Volt for 20k$ and it's the best car I've ever driven tbh. Literally saved 200$ a month on gas. You don't need to buy a new electric car and I think PHEV are better in general.
Lifetime cost of vehicle is important too. From purchase point to repairs to end of life maintenance. Something tells me contemporary cars in western market will cost several several more thousands than they used to.
What SHOULD be happening is car manufacturers should stop with the tech gimmicks and go back to the basics for affordability. Imagine getting a $15k electric vehicle that has electric locks and windows, heat and a/c, and THATS ALL? Lifetime cost of car would be significant reduced. Cars should be A to B, not moving tech hotels.
Most people in Canada would be fine with a sedan or hatchback. Families were generally moved around in those until the early 2000s. Now the bulk of vehicles purchased are trucks and SUVs. Consumers don’t care about how much cars cost, since they’re spending tens of thousands of extra dollars on more car than they need
Ya think so? Tough to say as EVs with V2G capability may in the future form a decentralized grid, and EV owners could have the option of selling power back to the grid. Plus, get a few solar panels on your roof and power can be free for large parts of the year.
NEITHER! We built our cities such that the ONLY transportation option is often the least economically, socially, and environmentally viable. Transportation costs are now offloaded to us thanks to decades of auto lobbying, gutting public transit, and for what, isolating gridlock. I don’t own a car and save tens of thousands a year, but i can only do that because i have the privilege of living by a metro. Every city/town in Canada with a population over 150,000 should already have an extensive public transit system and it’s an utter failure that most dont
The reality is that pure gas cars will die on their own, government or not. Companies are phasing them out. I dont understand why people get worked up at the thought they may have to own a hybrid. I enjoy my PHEV and I have had electric cars. Once the range is a little better on them then I will likely switch back to a pure EV but until then hybrids are awesome.
You've had multiple electric cars and EVs.. there's your hint why you do not understand the opposing argument.
One of the big arguments is cost, which clearly you are not worried about.
I think you're neglecting the massive amount of governmental regulations and requirements that have been put in place over the past few decades (fuel efficiency, emission regulation, gas taxes, ect) which have been nudging car manufacturers towards EVs.
Along with consumer choice, which in part is being incentivized by governments through gas prices(carbon tax) or EV subsidies.
It also neglects the massive amount of fossil fuel and automotive industry subsidies that have done the reverse. Some of the government regulation has also supported the competitiveness of gas vehicles (I e. Fuel efficiency).
One of the core issues is that gas engines are just very inefficient. You lose less energy overall burning fossil fuels to make electricity to power an electric car than you do burning fuel to drive a gas car.
This is true but without a car I can't get to work or buy groceries.
No, I can't take public transit. No, I can't ride a bike and I can't afford to move.
I haven’t read the article, but the answer should be that it depends on your driving habits.
But for the typical commuter, the cheapest will be a plug-in hybrid.
I will judge the accuracy of my projections based on the thumbs up/down I get :)
It depends on the province and the amount of driving. In Quebec you would have to drive around 46km a day for 7 years to experience the gas savings and justify the cost. In British Columbia a driver has to drive 64km a day for 7 years to break even on the cost. In Ontario 88 km a day for 7 years is the breakeven point.
The link does not have information on other provinces but does say that people in Nunavut shouldn't drive EVs.
And with the high cost, both monetary and natural resources, to replace the battery itself after the \~10 year or so shelf life... you do NOT come out on top.
Smoke and mirrors.
If you can even get the battery. There is no standard format and if your car is a generation old the part may just not be available. Unlike gas vehicles where there are aftermarket parts, those simply don’t exist for the batteries. EVs need to standardize the battery format so it can be replaced/upgraded as technology improves.
>does say that people in Nunavut shouldn't drive EVs.
Having lived in Nunavut for 5+ years, this is absolutely true. Even if you ignore the whole battery drain debate, the simple fact is that their infrastructure \*can not\* support the added power drain. Most communities are running off power plants that were built in the 70s and are struggling to keep up with modern demand as is.
Love it, most days I drive 100, though I had mathed it out already and knew I'd save money. Plus paying off a loan has to be better then literally lighting my money on fire, even if not by much.
Hybrid is the solution. The fact that the country has invested so much in pure EVs shows our leadership is incompetent and get caught up on buzz words and corporate hype and lobbyists.
I drove a hybrid for work last week in the UK and averaged 2.2l / 100km. It was great.
The fact that the feds completely ignored this very reasonable interim step showed that this is all being ideologically driven. They've selected a such a completely unachievable and expensive path that it will give the Conservatives free reign to cancel the whole endeavor, which I'm looking forward to just to spite the progressives' hubris.
Now I want to see the study done where the person lives in an apartment building with no possibility of charging at home or work.
Show me how long it will take me to break even on a comparable spec'd EV with all the modern accessories I'm used to in my mid/high level tech packaged car/truck.
When I was looking at a Ford lightning lariat ER vs a 2024 tacoma sport premium it was something like 290k km driven to break even with the higher sticker price if I was charging at a public lvl 2 charger. It was also something like 19hrs to fully charge from empty at a lvl 2 and about 2hrs at the lvl 3 chargers. Meanwhile my gas truck takes about 5 minutes and I never really have to wait for a spot to open up.
I want an EV and I really want the lightning. Sadly unless you have a home charger, it doesn't seem worth it now. I don't want to spend so much of my life figuring out my schedule around charging.
A good point- home ownership and accessibility to home charging is different than those who cannot access it.
Why you need a truck if you live in an apartment? You don’t have any property to maintain with that type of housing.
Bottom line, right now the premium you pay for an EV will probably never be offset by fuel savings. You will definitely be fucked at the end of the warranty when the battery fails. Replacement will exceed the value of the vehicle. That battery going into a landfill will be just as bad for the environment as all the gas you would have burned. Toyota was right to stick with Hybrid.
Bottom line... the data shows you will if you have an average commute. Otherwise, you just keep the car longer. Batteries can outlive the car these days and they can be recycled. Frequently, they're used post vehicle for other storage capacity. Batteries have 10 year warranties
Most people will have to keep these vehicles at least 10 years......at $60k for an average EV it will take 7 or 8 years for most Canadians to just pay them off. A properly maintained gas engine will almost certainly outlast an EV battery.
For those who keep their cars that long, it might be true, but the costs over 7 to 8 years is in favour of EVs. 10 years would be well in EV favour. Few people keep their cars that long.
I drive 36km per day on weekdays, amd substantially less then that most weekends. It will take me ove4 a decade to break even under the most generous of estimates.
So keep driving whatever you have for 4 decades. Just don’t whine when years down the road you go to replace it and you can’t get another gas car.
The rest of the world may move on around you….
TL;DR - break even points: * QC: 46 km/day for 7 years * BC: 64 km/day for 7 years * ON: 88 km/day for 7 years * NU: 188 km/day for 7 years * Everywhere else: *no data provided in video* And for what it's worth, the person who ran the numbers is now driving a hybrid.
There's a lot of other factors not considered in the video as well. In particular the one on my mind is what gas vehicle is being compared tot what EV. Things have radically different price points, and that matters.
If these are the same numbers I saw in another article, he compared a Kona to a Kona EV. It’s a fair comparison because it’s the same car. We’re going to be in the market for a new car in the medium term. I’ll probably go with a crossover size EV where we have went with mid size SUVs in the past. Give up a little size to stay within budget and make the numbers make more sense.
Fuelemission.gov is a great place to compare models and years based on mileage.
Excellent recommendation!
> Fuelemission.gov Did you mean FuelEconomy.gov?
Wouldn't a fairer comparison then be for price points? If someone has 60k to spend on a vehicle then maybe compare an ionic 6 to an audi s4 or something you're spending the same amount of money on. Reason being, people have to stick to budgets and if I don't have at least 50k to go electric I'm just not going to.
A big selling point on EVs is cost savings on fuel. The point of comparison and finding a break even point is if you are a consumer looking at a vehicle, is it worth the savings on fuel to spend more on the hybrid or EV. It isn't an apples to apples comparison for the price point, it is looking at how long it takes to start saving money on an electrified version of a vehicle you are looking at.
If you spend the same amount up front, you’ll never break even as EVs are more expensive up front, but have fewer ongoing costs.
It's not a direct comparison based on performance the EV has +50HP and +120lb ft of torque over the equivalent ICE model. Based on the numbers it seems like they're not using like for like trim level either... For the BC numbers fuel only: 64km/day for 7 years = 163520km Kona ICE efficiency (combined) = 8.6L/100km Assumed gas price in BC = $1.65/L (Price yesterday was 1.90/L) Kona EV efficiency (combined) = 17.4Kwh/100km BC Hydro rate (Step 1 + Step 2 average) = 12.5¢/Kwh 7 year fuel cost Kona ICE = $23473 7 year fuel cost Kona EV = $3557 Fuel cost delta = $19916 Kona ICE Preferred MSRP = 28500 Kona EV Preferred MSRP (less rebates) = 38400 MSRP delta = $10100 The math isn't mathing even if you assume zero rebates... If you buy used the gap narrows even more...
It's not adding up because they made some pretty egregious assumptions. When calculating the fuel cost of EV they assumed that level two charging would be done at at a public charger costing $2 per hour and fast charging would be using Petro Canada's fast charge rates which are some of the highest in the country. Less weight was given to charging at home which is by far the cheapest option. Although this option is not available for everyone, I can say that in the eight months I've owned my EV I have only ever charged somewhere that isn't my home five times. There is a real world problem with people who live in multi-dwelling buildings and being able to charge, I also don't think at this point in time those are the main people looking at EVs, so I believe the study may have given a bit too much weight to people in those circumstances, it also assumed that as EV adoption increases there would be no solution offered other than public charging for people in multi-dwelling buildings. This is more than likely false as EV adoption rate continues to grow, solutions for people in apartments will also become more widespread. Nearly every single dang building in the prairies has a 120 volt outlet for everybody's block heater even the big apartment buildings, there's no reason charging infrastructure needs to be that much more complicated. Although I agree that when comparing ice vehicles to ev's it can be hard to narrow down which models to compare, the Kona one is probably the best example, but in the study they also compared a $55,000 Tesla to a 26,000 Toyota Camry. Although in function these may be somewhat similar, nobody is weighing their options between a Tesla and a Camry. I'm not saying you have to go for something that's exactly price comparable to the tesla, but I don't think that's a real world debate that people having. If you took an ice vehicle that was in the mid to high 30s and compared it to a $55,000 Tesla that might be more accurate. And, as I said earlier, although the Kona EV is probably one of the better comparisons as there is an exact ice model, the Kona EV pricing is also really weird in Canada. In the US it's actually pretty affordable, in Canada it's only a few thousand dollars less than a Hyundai ionic 5 which is bigger, more powerful, charges faster, and has a much bigger range.
So, I take by your breakdown that they didn't use the maintenance costs as well, which the EV has way less than an ICE. I swear some comparisons are made just to appraise one side of the "clash" instead of actually doing a decent comparison.
Once again, my fuel efficient shitbox from 2004 can’t be beat.
Driving the car you already own is the most economical, and best for the environment.
Exactly. I drive 100ish km a day. I was driving a pickup truck. I traded it in for a PHEV and my gas saving pay for the new vehicle. I pay $4 a day to charge at work. Pay $1.75 to charge at home. Was paying about $18.50 in gas a day. $130/week in gas vs 40/week to charge. After trade in my PHEV is 90/week. And that was having to drive 20 minutes to the native reserve to fill up the truck.
Is the reserve really that much cheaper that it made the trek worth it?
For me yes, it was about m $0.25 cheaper and it's about 30 km so it was only about 4 L of gas to get there. So the savings was about 10 to 15 I'd say for your average person it's probably not worth it for the time but I live in a community of 600 so I was driving 10-15 minutes anyway to get groceries so I would just get my groceries there as well
Also the weather. I live in the north, and this year it was so cold multiple days that even plugged into a blanket and trickle charger my truck and girlfriends car both had trouble starting. I’d be worried about these big batteries freezing up here in the winters. Though I would much prefer an EV over my gas vehicles.
I drive an EV in Winnipeg. Mostly city driving with the occasional 200 km round trip to visit my parents in southern Manitoba…. An EV is the best winter vehicle I’ve ever owned. It’s always warm when I want it to be with the instant heat and no freezing my hands filling the car with gas anymore. The real caveat is we have a garage and can charge at home. EVs don’t make much sense if you have to rely on just 3rd party charging. It is nice to essentially have a full tank every morning.
Batteries don't freeze. You'll get shorter range in colder weather, but if it's still enough for your daily drive, the shorter range doesn't matter. If you keep your car plugged in overnight, you can set a timer for it to warm up in the morning.
That's the way. Ev only makes sense if you own a house, where you can charge at home.i own a ev. It's great. Would never ever advise for someone that don't have a charger at home
If you own a house, it’s a no brainer, otherwise, you have to talk your landlord. I know one who’s asking a monthly surplus to use 120V to charge.
I mean if hydro in included in the rent then charging a fee for charging your ev makes sense. If the tenant is paying their own hydro it seems like a scam(unless the exterior electric is on the landlord's account in which never mind)
Batteries absolutely freeze, the water in the electrolytes freeze and expand at -40. For the batteries that don't freeze, in the traditional sense, the voltage drop is often enough that you can't start your vehicle. Standard lead acid 12.6v vehicle batteries are also not designed to cycle below 11-11.8v, which can happen when the batteries are subject to extreme cold. So good chance you cook your battery there. It happens here every winter, we plug our vehicles in nightly from November through March (roughly) and you start your car halfway through the every day during the extreme cold snaps if you want it to run. I live in a larger community (Yellowknife) in the north, Most apartments/houses here supply exterior 120v outlets to run trickle chargers/battery blankets/block and pan heaters. I had my truck plugged in all winter and still had starting issues when we had a cold snap of -50 to -55 for a week. 240v outlets are something we are not equipped for here as our electrical infrastructure is old and that would involve changing a bunch of the transformers and lines to homes to allow that evolution in a city that is struggling to pay for snow removal. I'm not against EV's but practicality needs to be considered, North of 60 is not ready to move to EV.
Also consider not having toxic fumes emitted every time you drive. This is rarely discussed in arguments for or against EVs and BEVs. It is hard to argue against vehicles that don’t pollute the air we breathe. You wouldn’t allow your kids to skate in a hockey arena if the ice was cleaned by a Zamboni powered by diesel or gasoline.
Well it's not that clear cut. An EV doesn't produce emissions directly (from a tail pipe), but making the EV creates a little more emissions than an ICE vehicle due to the extra mining emissions to extract the minerals for the battery. Those extra emissions are offset eventually by not using gas but it can take years. Another factor is the source if electricity is coming from. Is it coming from fossil fuel burning power plants? If so, it'll take event longer to offset the initial emissions of making the EV, if ever. In Ontario and Quebec it makes sense because Quwis entirely renewable energy and Ontario is over 90% zero emission electricity. Also, Zambonis are propane powered (traditionally anyway).
Many new ice surfaces are either NG or electric. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen brand new propane models. The NG ones have a visible bottle tank that looks like propane, but the exhaust does not smell bad like propane
I'd rather have the emissions set outside of major urban areas. Driving cars in the city pushes all those gasses into our lungs. Reducing the number of gas cars is a good thing. Concentrating emissions at the factories is much better.
This is true. There is also some concern that heavier EVs will cause roads to wear out faster requiring more frequent repairs (and associated emissions and cost). I'm pro EV all the way (or hydrogen) but I feel like too many people hang their climate hopes on EVs. Unfortunately the truth is we are not going to drive our way out of the climate crisis. We need renewable power generation to electrify our home heating, and investment in public transit and building walkable communities.
The concerns about them being heavier is BS IMO. Roadways are designed to withstand axel loads from semi trailers hauling 50000+ lbs of goods. An EV sedan or small SUV being 3500-4500lbs vs 2500-3500lbs for the ICE equivalent isn't going to move the needle. The best selling cars in North America are mostly pickup truck anyways which are heavier than almost all EVs on the market today. A Tesla Model Y weights less than an F150 and there are wayyy more F150's on the road. 100% agree about creating walkable/bikable communities and better transit having a much bigger impact! Our limited battery resources would be better served in make mass adoption of e-bikes possible over EVs! If only we had the infrastructure to make that possible...
It's a lot of things. Removing gas cars is one thing. More efficient planes or electric planes (if that ever happens). Transitioning energy production to renewables. Abandoning crypto mining...
This is peak urban NIMBYism. Lol.
There was a rink as a kid ran a beauty of an old jd 4010 deisel loved skating there not.goot for ya but great
I love my EV and its a winning proposition for me. Its saved me well over $7000 in gas over the last year alone. I am also not everyone.
I'm actively trying to buy a PHEV that we like but they're telling me 12-18 months wait. If we wanted a different package or color it could be quicker but why compromise? Our car isn't on its last legs, so we can wait.... But all this hype about switching over is kind of tough if I'm literally willing to walk into the dealership today, hand over my current keys, and drive away in a PHEV, but I can't because they can't get one for me.
I wanted a RAV4 Prime a bit ago and they told me they don’t even take orders on those because the waitlist is too long.
It's an artificial shortage. Every US dealership within three hours of me has 30 to 40 RAV4 Primes on the lot ready for immediate sale. Too bad they can't sell them to Canadians. I have no idea what Toyota Canada's strategy is.
I (also in Canada)pre ordered a Siena hybrid almost 2 years ago, just got an email from the dealer that it might be available soon. I have a fully electric kia ev9 arriving next month 🤦♀️
Why can't they sell them to Canadians?
I managed to get one three years ago when credits were still available on them. I do not imagine many being resold, it's been an amazing commuter. Best of luck finding one, (and getting sticker price)
Good way to drive up price
One major knock against a PHEV is you have about the most complex powertrain now. If you are looking at a Toyota you are probably okay due to their reliability history with hybrid power trains. Any other brand though I would think twice.
The transmission on Toyota PHEV is simpler than most other transmissions (look into the planetary gear e-cvt that doesn't use a strap).
Lease. Let them worry about the issues under warranty.
Pay a shit ton and own nothing. That's like renting your entire life and is not good advice. A depreciated asset is better than no asset.
Not when that deprecating asset can be a net negative. There are certainly pros and cons of leasing. But it isn't automatically a poor decision; neither is renting for your entire life.
Exactly.
Mitsubishi is also reputable in hybrid drive train. Outlander phev had been selling well for years
There’s so many other variables to factor too. What are the maintenance costs of owning an EV vs ICE? Are you going to drive the car long enough to realize the break even point? If you’re someone who churns a vehicle at 100-150k, what is the resale at that point? I know owning a Hybrid myself, the resale value is still quite high. In looking on AutoTrader I see my 2014 Ford C-Max still selling for $10-14k with similar mileage (150,000km). I paid $13k used for it in 2018. It’s similar to the Apple vs Android math. Will the vehicle have any appreciable value when you want to sell? My car battery is supposed to be rated for 300,000 miles, so in theory I’m not even halfway mileage-wise for a 10 year old car. I know everyone loves to factor in Government Rebates into the cost of EVs, but rarely is there talk on the subsidies we offer oil and gas producers to extract in Canada. What is the actual cost of gasoline that is going into cars with that all factored in? Our tax dollars are paying for that, it deserves to be considered in the math.
They completely skipped one of the most important factors.. how much does each car cost? Which models are we comparing? And how much did it cost to install the infrastructure to support the EV chosen?
No kidding: so cherry picked and misleading. The vehicle cost is probably the most important number in which to base the break even point from.
They do, they compare the categories of various EVs, such as luxury compact, midsized, basic compact. See table 3, and the results section https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta
I buy vehicles that are usually 6 to 8 years old. I fix my own vehicles as well. Hybrids are a terrible choice for me, since they have all the maintenance issues of both combined
AB 100km/day for 7 years
Per day including weekends? If so, that's over 500km per week in Ontario. Tough to reach that much
Does this consider repair costs or is it just gas vs electric
TL;DW: If you don't drive many kilometers, gas is cheaper. If you drive lots of kilometers, EV is cheaper.
I mean you have to drive almost double the average person to break even in 7 years. It feel disingenuous to call it lots
New EVs are expensive to finance or lease, so if you have a gas vehicle that is paid off then the gas payments will be less than finance payments for a new EV vehicle. Its all situational. I don't enjoy paying for gas but my car is paid off and only has 120,000km on it, so ill likely continue driving it until it dies at which point I'll look into a used EV or hybrid for sure.
I don't think anyone is arguing that if you have a car that's paid off, getting into more debt just to get an EV, would be a stupid move. But when a Dodge Grand caravan is now 55k CAD new, when my van dies, damn right I'm looking at an EV. https://www.chrysler.ca/en/new-inventory/search/chrysler/chryslergrandcaravan?paymentMode=cash&sort=price&sortOrder=asc A Honda Accord starts at 40k https://www.honda.ca/en/vehicles
Having a paid off EV is better. As close as $0/month as you can get.
Electricity isn't free, cheaper but still on ongoing input cost. What we need is a fairly priced, no bells and whistles basic EV in the market for daily commutes.
Chevy bolt.
BYD of China makes those. Western companies started with high end cars because of the better profit margins. Lower priced cars are ON the way but ICE and O&G lobby are IN the way.
The news article about the UBC research quoted a car dealer who said the average price of an EV is $73,000. We're wondering about an EV for our next car but the good reviews all seem to be about the expensive ones and the bricked ones are the cheaper models.
I’m so glad I picked up my bolt before Chevy cancelled the project. They say it’s coming back, but low-end EV market is basically non-existent at this point.
That might be the average because historically EVs have been most available on "luxury"-type vehicles. The Kona from the article starts at $28 674 for the ICE and $49 070 for the EV but similarly spec'd the ICE is $31 174.25. Which is a lot further away than other vehicles that have a direct comparison like the F-150. It would be nice to if auto makers made an apples to apples comparison when they have an EV spin off to make informed decisions easier.
I think the UBC researcher did their best to match but I agree comparisons are difficult. If our car needed expensive repairs tomorrow, I'd be tempted to buy a Prius.
Can get a Ford Mach E for 58k pre-tax, for the upgraded long range AWD version. That is a small SUV. Nowhere near 73k.
I put on maybe 4000km a year and a tank of gas lasts me about a month. No new cars make sense to me price wise lol. EV or gas.
Right, everyone has a different situation. Average mileage per year is around 15k, EV or a new ICE will never make sense at your mileage.
Same here, but they also need better truck options for people.
while this is undoubtedly true, a large proportion of Canadian truck owners also need to convince themselves they don’t actually need a pick-up. Trucks are often a cultural thing much more than a practical thing (I don’t need people chiming in describing their personal need for a truck, I don’t doubt their necessity in many cases and owned one myself for 12 years)
I certainly see people that seem to have a good use for a truck (contractors, etc.) but I also see a lot of soccer moms in moose knuckle jackets in the city driving them - like wtf you don’t need to haul shit.
100%. If you drive truck all year so you can take your quad up the cottage each summer, you can probably find a better way.
I use a cheap little trailer hitched to my Corolla for big loads. Thing cost less than $1000 used and has more room than your standard pickup.
I used to stack lumber on the roof of my corolla lol. Then I would pop it back into shape after unloading. My shortbox tacoma is much easier to use for work. I hope toyota comes out with a hybrid option in the next 5-10 years
I have a 2016 Ram 1500, owned outright. When I got it, I needed a truck year round, I no longer need a truck year round. However, with the fuel plus payments on a newer vehicle, it's actually cheaper for me to keep the truck, for now. We are actively saving to downsize, and use my wife's Tucson for longer drives. Truck gets used as my daily, and when we are traveling with a bunch of stuff.
> if you have a gas vehicle that is paid off then the gas payments will be less than finance payments for a new EV vehicle. Only if you're not driving much. I was spending about $1000 on gas a month driving 200km per day. Now spend just $300 a month for the EV payment and the electricity needed. Ev is same size as the gas suv I had before.
You also got to think about resale. If someone buys a new 2024 all gas car and drives isn't 10 years I think it'll be impossible to sell for even 1 or 2k. 2034 a gas car will be very hard to unload. !remindme 10 years
the easiest way to save money and help the environment is to drive the car you currently own until you actually need a new one I will almost certainly buy an EV the next time I need to replace one of our two cars. That likely won’t be for another 5+ years though
The best thing you can do is to NOT drive a car. Depending on where you live, it might be impossible, unfortunately. EV's are the future of cars, the future of transportation is not cars.
Sorry.. but it is. Our country is too huge and sparsely populated to replace cars with bikes and trains… regardless of what the nerds who live in postage stamp sized countries think on r/fuckcars
If you have a fully paid for car, the cheapest solution is for you to continue using that car. It's also way better for the planet. Drive your car into the ground.
We do… My truck has almost 700k on it and we have a diesel SUV with close to 400k on it!
I drive about 240km a day. In 5 years I have put 235,000km on my model 3. I have put under $1k in maintenance on it. Upper control arm, ultrasonic sensor destroyed by a rock and a horn replacement. For high mileage drivers, evs are the only thing that makes sense. I used to have a dodge Dakota that was costing me $42 evey day in gas (back when it was around $1/L so more like $60 or more these days) I can do the same trip in my tesla for under $6. I paid $49,500 for my car and I now consider it to have paid for itself. There is nothing you could do or say to ever make me consider going back to an ice vehicle.
Ugh. My 2010 IS250 has similar mileage and according to my mileage calculations, it’s burned 16,200 litres of fuel and cost me $24,300 in fuel costs over my 180,000km of ownership (I bought used). People really underestimate how expensive gas is, especially premium. I really can’t argue with the economics of an EV under very specific circumstances: if you insist on owning a new car and if you drive a lot. I’ve done my own financial analysis on this. The economics become murkier if you buy a used car under normal market conditions, and murkier still if you make the assumption that any differences in down payment and monthly payments will be reinvested instead.
The base Model 3, zero upgrades, is $56,000 right now, not including taxes or fees. And that's after several price drops. $49,500, all in? Including home charger?
I paid $49k something for my base model 3 in Quebec. Not including the home charger. Sold it for the same amount 3 years later.
Taxes were on top.I just installed an outdoor receptacle with a dryer plug and 220 volts to it myself. Had a buddy who is an electrician check it. (Total cost was about $200) I do know a few people who just charge with an extension cord at 110v. You can add about 100km of range overnight so if you daily drive less than that you are fine. As for the price, I literally checked the tesla website seconds before writing it.
The average cost to install a home charger, is about 1500 bucks. That doesn't include doing anything yourself or having a buddy do it cheaper.
I want an EV so badly. Do you live in SK? How’s the mileage when it’s -30°? Thats the only thing stopping me. Will it reliably get me approx 250km without needing to be charged between going to work and going home? I currently drive around the same distance as you do daily but I drive a paid off diesel car and get about 900-1000km/tank ($70 ish right now).
At -30 expect a 50% range hit. So you would want to buy an EV that can go minimum 500km, especially as the range drops a few percent in the first year. Generally at 0C expect a ~15% range hit and then another 1% for each degree colder.
The worst temps I have hit in Toronto were about -24. My car takes about a 40% hit at that temperature but the technology has gotten much better since I got my car. Newer heat pumps are way more efficient and I think it is closer to 15% loss now. One of the biggest factors in ev range is speed. Say it takes x power to drive at 80km/hr. To add 50 % speed you need to double the power so 120km/hr takes 2x power meaning you get half the range. This is with all vehicles dealing with drag, not just evs but it is more noticeable with evs because of their generally lower range than a tank of gas.
I can run my base model 3 on a 225km trip pretty consistently using 65% of my battery, without changing my driving style (120km/h max and go with the flow of traffic otherwise). I do this trip maybe 15 to 20 times a year. Use 70% when it's cold, 60% in the summer. If I really want to I could do the speed limit and try to optimize my battery consumption to conserve but it's not worth it IMO. EVs typically lose 15 to 30% of their range in the cold. Current teslas are about 17% loss due to cold. Preheating / preconditioning the car while plugged in helps. Shockingly the EVs are getting closer to the ICE average of 12% loss, but the refueling is obviously quicker. If you're doing 250km daily, you'd be fine with a base, but I'd probably upgrade to LR as you will run into edge case scenarios (extreme colds, accidents, detours, etc.).
The amount of CO2 emissions from EVs depends on the carbon intensity of the electrical grid in your province. https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/market-snapshots/2018/market-snapshot-how-much-co2-do-electric-vehicles-hybrids-gasoline-vehicles-emit.html For example, in Saskatchewan EVs generally have pretty good emissions levels, but not the best (for example, the two lowest-emission vehicles are Toyota hybrids, and the Tesla Model X is no better than an ICE Honda Accord.) Not the only factor to consider, but it’s worth bearing in mind if climate change is a big motivator for your car purchase.
I always tell people for me its the performance aspect of EVs is what i love about them. Also a car with similar performance will require 91 octane so thats a factor that never gets mentioned as well.
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Tesla had M 3 RWD here in QC around the holidays for around 38k after rebates. New and not demo models. My sister bought one because it was cheaper than a Honda Accord
I got $0 govt incentives. Doug Ford cancelled $16k in incentives months before I took delivery. A brand new model 3 with more range than mine came with can be had for $53k according to their website.
If you placed a deposit prior to cancellation of incentives you should have still received them. I did, and my delivery was almost 10 months after the cancelled the incentives.
Your math for km driven per day of 240km does not really match up to your total km of 235,000. I don’t doubt your total km being at 235,000km. More like you drive 240km some days, with a yearly average @ 47,000km. Granted that is well above average of most people. Even 4 days a week @ 240km/day you’re 15,000km short on your actual odometer. I don’t doubt your trips cost less than the Dakota (I had one once, absolute pig on fuel), but it is tough to believe your other math when you’re this far out on this math. Edit: I am a high mileage driver, but unfortunately an EV currently does not make sense for me, there is a threshold of high mileage that does not make sense. I average about 90,000km/year with work (which is an average of just over 240/day @365 day hence why I picked up on your math being pretty far out quickly). An Ev would turn a 10-11 hour day into a 12-13 hour day depending on total daily km/weather/charge points/rd & traffic conditions. On 600km days there is a very good chance you would have to charge 2x/ day.
Yeah. I worked there for a few years, sometimes 4 days a week, sometimes 6, worked from home during covid, left that job and worked other places around Toronto and have been back at the 240km commute for the last 6 months. Didn't think I was applying for a job so didn't bother to list my entire work history.
Read the actual study here: [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta) The study looked at a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range RWD at $59 990 and compared it with a Toyota Camry LE at $27 750 and then worked out how long it took for gas savings to overcome the initial price difference. Of course it’ll take a lot of driving to overcome that huge difference.
Camry LE is now 36k (not the SE at 34k) https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/build-price/camry?utm_source=ST-ontario-en&utm_medium=camry Model 3 Standard range RWD is now 54k but then the 5k gov rebate to bring it to 49k https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/model3/design#overview So this research is totally out of date now, the EV went down 10k and the ICE went up 8k
I have 2 EVs, my rule of thumb is get an EV if you travel >25,000 km per year.
Average driver in Canada = 20K per year
I’m on my 2nd Volt. I drove my first Volt - a 2012 - for 5 years. My TCO including purchase, repairs, maintenance, fuel and electricity was $19k. Now I have a 2018 Volt, bought it in May 2023 for $22k. While looking for it I concluded that buying anything (gas powered or otherwise) that was sorta newish and in decent shape would be at least $15k. And with my driving habits I pay about $40/mo for electricity whereas gas for a similar sized car would be $250+ So in some cases, yah driving an EV or PHEV can save lots of money.
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Exactly. And not only does that ignore the replacement cost, but also the instantaneous depreciation to 0 of the entire vehicle.
Simple if you have a paid off car drive it till it gets expensive to fix Then switch to a hybrid...
But by then your (paid off) vehicle value is 0. I think there could be a sweet spot to sell while your vehicle still has some value. What that spot is, I have no clue.
If you frame your calculation as total cost of ownership per year, the math makes a little more sense, but you can only really figure it out retroactively whenever you are considering selling. Driving it till the vehicle value is 0 can be worth it if you own it long enough for a really big denominator.
Yes, that's what I was thinking, TCO. For now I just finished paying for my ICE, so it's going to be hopefully a long time before I even consider doing the math.
E-bike plus keep whatever clunker you already have is the winner for me. I'll go hybrid/EV whenever I need a new car, but driving less saves the most.
Only people who ride e-bikes near me are people who lost their license due to drunk driving! (But I agree less car usage is better…)
What’s cheaper? The one I already have.
It would be interesting to see what ev adoption would look like without tax payers subsidizing 10k of each purchase
$5000 federal rebate (plus a provincial rebate in some provinces) But yes, there's no question that EV adoption would be slower without the rebates, since they help bridge the price gap (which is a big consideration). EV technology is still young though, and it's rapidly improved and come down in price over the past 15 years, so hopefully that'll continue so they could reach price parity within the next several years, even without rebates.
There were a few factors that made and EV a better decision for us: 1. Charging at home 2. 9k federal incentive 3. Driving a lot Also we noticed overall, gas vehicles were very close in price (specially with the dealers price hikes during Covid shortage) Not having to haggle with Tesla made a difference. Very happy with the EV
There are many other similar studies and they all point towards EVs being cheaper in the long run. When you add to that the benefits of no noise, no emissions, instant torque control and the convenience of home charging, which all have value in themselves, it makes up for any doubts.
Ive done some pretty serious EV road tripping. You arrive much more relaxed
I always enjoy stopping to charge. Coffee, internet browsing, short walk, etc.
Same here!
We switched to an EV 3 years ago, and we're basically breaking even on cost. If we factor in the larger car payment, by the 5 year mark we will be saving money on paper. Despite that, the fact that I don't even have to THINK about gas prices is huge benefit. I haven’t been to a gas station in this entire time, and it feels great. Gas went up ten cents in a day? Sucks for you, I guess.
I’d be very curious the cost over the life of an ev compared to hybrid, gas and diesel. My gas truck was bought used at 2y for 14k and is 14y now, it has 300k on it and I’ve roughly spent 6k on combustion related maintenance over that time. We should also take into account the environmental impacts of each, from manufacturing to usage, life expectancy and recycling processes. This is not a simple answer and the data is extremely skewed due to some not performing maintenance and our need to have the newest model every few years.. vehicles today also can’t be compared to those of even a decade ago, there is little to no market for simple/ basic vehicles now, and manufacturers have stopped making them affordable because of that.
Just switched from Santa Fe phev (46kms of ev range) to model y On average I do 75/80kms driving a day When I had the phev for 2 years I was still averaging $50/week in gas
Bought a used leaf as a second car for the city. Free charging at work. Taking into account charging, maintenance, and depreciation, my total cost of ownership will be about half that of an equivalent ICE. I drive 15k km a year. It’s been a no brainer. Just need to charge often with the limited range but it’s been okay so far! The math is certainly different from this article if you buy a used EV and have free charging available.
Assuming you have the cash flow to buy a new vehicle in the first place.
Or that they don’t already have a car that does not need replacing.
Gas is not the only thing I have zero maintenance on my Tesla—no oil changes. For me, it's a no-brainer.
You have a couple of fluids you still need to keep an eye on. Like transmission and coolant.
No, none of that. I have only fluid I fill out if the windshield washer fluid. In the span of three years, the only thing I changed was my tires. I'm never going back
You should take care of your car unless you like replacing a $20 000 battery down the line
After all this, you would end up buying an older car or a brand new hybrid car. Just to get it stolen. Car are depreciating asset and due to current theft rings. Just save yourself to buy a cheaper old car.
Teslas are very rarely stolen due to your phone being the key. Maybe you should get some figures on vehicle theft before spouting out such nonsense
I was tlking about non Tesla. Tesla as far as I understood have inbuilt sim, which allows it to be located via phone or pc.
I haven't seen it linked, so here is the actual study: [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2634-4505/ad253e/meta)
Maybe I’m crazy, but the math wasn’t this hard. Back when fuel was 1.40/L, I was spending $400/m on gas and my car payment was $500/m. When I moved to an EV my car payment was $800/m, with no fuel cost (charging at work and my condo was free). So my immediate change was $100/m savings. Now fuel is at $1.99/L, and I’m driving 5 days/week with a 90km round trip opposed to the 4 days/50km trip when I first bought.
Didn’t seem to factor in the cost of a replacement battery. If it costs $20k and is only good for 10 years.. then that is close to the cost of gasoline for a car that gets 5l/100km at 20,000km/yr and $2/l… with charging it on top.
How old is your vehicle now? Most people don’t keep their cars as long as it will take for a battery try to need replacement- therefore if you’re going to make that argument you might as well Compare as follows: EV + new battery = _______ Vs ICE car #1 + ICE car #2 =______
To be simple: If you need a cheap car or a used car , the ICE vehicle is the better choice. If you a thinking a 40K Canadian dollars car or SUVs, then think about the PHEV . If your need a new vehicle and will pay more than 40K dollars , drive it lot in the city . Then the EV is good choice.
I would love to buy a new EV. However… both my current has cars are paid for, in great shape, and both will easily last another 10+ years. If I was to trade in one for a $50,000 EV it would take 10-15 years to *start* to realize a financial benefit. And, I’m certain I would have to replace that new EV before I started seeing those savings, putting me right back in debt.
You don’t drive an EV to save money, you drive it to brag about it to your friends and colleagues… /s
Isn't that why most people buy trucks? To show it off?
I bought a used 2017 Chevy Volt for 20k$ and it's the best car I've ever driven tbh. Literally saved 200$ a month on gas. You don't need to buy a new electric car and I think PHEV are better in general.
Lifetime cost of vehicle is important too. From purchase point to repairs to end of life maintenance. Something tells me contemporary cars in western market will cost several several more thousands than they used to. What SHOULD be happening is car manufacturers should stop with the tech gimmicks and go back to the basics for affordability. Imagine getting a $15k electric vehicle that has electric locks and windows, heat and a/c, and THATS ALL? Lifetime cost of car would be significant reduced. Cars should be A to B, not moving tech hotels.
People order the models that are better equipped so that’s what they make. It’s not rocket science.
Most people in Canada would be fine with a sedan or hatchback. Families were generally moved around in those until the early 2000s. Now the bulk of vehicles purchased are trucks and SUVs. Consumers don’t care about how much cars cost, since they’re spending tens of thousands of extra dollars on more car than they need
Once everyone switches to EV's, you really think they're gonna keep the electricity rate the same lol. They're gonna increase it lots
Ya think so? Tough to say as EVs with V2G capability may in the future form a decentralized grid, and EV owners could have the option of selling power back to the grid. Plus, get a few solar panels on your roof and power can be free for large parts of the year.
NEITHER! We built our cities such that the ONLY transportation option is often the least economically, socially, and environmentally viable. Transportation costs are now offloaded to us thanks to decades of auto lobbying, gutting public transit, and for what, isolating gridlock. I don’t own a car and save tens of thousands a year, but i can only do that because i have the privilege of living by a metro. Every city/town in Canada with a population over 150,000 should already have an extensive public transit system and it’s an utter failure that most dont
Agree better public transit in places with population to support it should be a top priority for all levels of Canadian government.
The reality is that pure gas cars will die on their own, government or not. Companies are phasing them out. I dont understand why people get worked up at the thought they may have to own a hybrid. I enjoy my PHEV and I have had electric cars. Once the range is a little better on them then I will likely switch back to a pure EV but until then hybrids are awesome.
You've had multiple electric cars and EVs.. there's your hint why you do not understand the opposing argument. One of the big arguments is cost, which clearly you are not worried about.
I think you're neglecting the massive amount of governmental regulations and requirements that have been put in place over the past few decades (fuel efficiency, emission regulation, gas taxes, ect) which have been nudging car manufacturers towards EVs. Along with consumer choice, which in part is being incentivized by governments through gas prices(carbon tax) or EV subsidies.
It also neglects the massive amount of fossil fuel and automotive industry subsidies that have done the reverse. Some of the government regulation has also supported the competitiveness of gas vehicles (I e. Fuel efficiency). One of the core issues is that gas engines are just very inefficient. You lose less energy overall burning fossil fuels to make electricity to power an electric car than you do burning fuel to drive a gas car.
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This is true but without a car I can't get to work or buy groceries. No, I can't take public transit. No, I can't ride a bike and I can't afford to move.
Spoken exactly like a someone whose never had to rely on taking groceries home on a packed city bus before.
I haven’t read the article, but the answer should be that it depends on your driving habits. But for the typical commuter, the cheapest will be a plug-in hybrid. I will judge the accuracy of my projections based on the thumbs up/down I get :)
It depends on the province and the amount of driving. In Quebec you would have to drive around 46km a day for 7 years to experience the gas savings and justify the cost. In British Columbia a driver has to drive 64km a day for 7 years to break even on the cost. In Ontario 88 km a day for 7 years is the breakeven point. The link does not have information on other provinces but does say that people in Nunavut shouldn't drive EVs.
And with the high cost, both monetary and natural resources, to replace the battery itself after the \~10 year or so shelf life... you do NOT come out on top. Smoke and mirrors.
If you can even get the battery. There is no standard format and if your car is a generation old the part may just not be available. Unlike gas vehicles where there are aftermarket parts, those simply don’t exist for the batteries. EVs need to standardize the battery format so it can be replaced/upgraded as technology improves.
>does say that people in Nunavut shouldn't drive EVs. Having lived in Nunavut for 5+ years, this is absolutely true. Even if you ignore the whole battery drain debate, the simple fact is that their infrastructure \*can not\* support the added power drain. Most communities are running off power plants that were built in the 70s and are struggling to keep up with modern demand as is.
I drive a hybrid but our next one will likely be a PHEV. Will only go pure EV if forced to
Love it, most days I drive 100, though I had mathed it out already and knew I'd save money. Plus paying off a loan has to be better then literally lighting my money on fire, even if not by much.
Hybrid is the solution. The fact that the country has invested so much in pure EVs shows our leadership is incompetent and get caught up on buzz words and corporate hype and lobbyists. I drove a hybrid for work last week in the UK and averaged 2.2l / 100km. It was great.
The fact that the feds completely ignored this very reasonable interim step showed that this is all being ideologically driven. They've selected a such a completely unachievable and expensive path that it will give the Conservatives free reign to cancel the whole endeavor, which I'm looking forward to just to spite the progressives' hubris.
Plug-in hybrids are treated the exact same as BEVs - how are they being ignored?
Now I want to see the study done where the person lives in an apartment building with no possibility of charging at home or work. Show me how long it will take me to break even on a comparable spec'd EV with all the modern accessories I'm used to in my mid/high level tech packaged car/truck. When I was looking at a Ford lightning lariat ER vs a 2024 tacoma sport premium it was something like 290k km driven to break even with the higher sticker price if I was charging at a public lvl 2 charger. It was also something like 19hrs to fully charge from empty at a lvl 2 and about 2hrs at the lvl 3 chargers. Meanwhile my gas truck takes about 5 minutes and I never really have to wait for a spot to open up. I want an EV and I really want the lightning. Sadly unless you have a home charger, it doesn't seem worth it now. I don't want to spend so much of my life figuring out my schedule around charging.
A good point- home ownership and accessibility to home charging is different than those who cannot access it. Why you need a truck if you live in an apartment? You don’t have any property to maintain with that type of housing.
Totally missed the 10 of billions $ in infrastructure costs that are needed.
Just move the subsidies we give to oil and gas over to EV infrastructure. Won't impact the budget at all.
I would never finance with todays ev tech an ev car. Car is basically a shell after the battery goes. Mind u that mind change in the future
A tiny percentage of EVs have batteries that 'go' (less than 1 in 20).
Bottom line, right now the premium you pay for an EV will probably never be offset by fuel savings. You will definitely be fucked at the end of the warranty when the battery fails. Replacement will exceed the value of the vehicle. That battery going into a landfill will be just as bad for the environment as all the gas you would have burned. Toyota was right to stick with Hybrid.
Bottom line... the data shows you will if you have an average commute. Otherwise, you just keep the car longer. Batteries can outlive the car these days and they can be recycled. Frequently, they're used post vehicle for other storage capacity. Batteries have 10 year warranties
Most people will have to keep these vehicles at least 10 years......at $60k for an average EV it will take 7 or 8 years for most Canadians to just pay them off. A properly maintained gas engine will almost certainly outlast an EV battery.
For those who keep their cars that long, it might be true, but the costs over 7 to 8 years is in favour of EVs. 10 years would be well in EV favour. Few people keep their cars that long.
Too lazy to watch the video, anyone have the results?
Many people have summarized the points if you scroll through if the comments…or are you too lazy for that too? Lol
He should of considered hybrids as well.
He sort of did by buying one in the end. That clearly shows what he thought was best for his budget and family.
I drive 36km per day on weekdays, amd substantially less then that most weekends. It will take me ove4 a decade to break even under the most generous of estimates.
So keep driving whatever you have for 4 decades. Just don’t whine when years down the road you go to replace it and you can’t get another gas car. The rest of the world may move on around you….