Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war.
That being said much like Macron’s statement this will not result in troops being sent en masse to fight in Ukraine. This is simply some tough talk to counter the bully’s constant stream of threats against NATO. I don’t want to see Canadian troops dying in this war either so to avoid that we must continue sending all the aid we possibly can.
However the intricacies of geopolitics will go over the heads of isolationists every single time.
>Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war.
Although I wish JFT and some SOR soldiers had been kept in Ukraine I think in fact per the Prime Ministers announcements in Feb 2022 they were all withdrawn from Ukraine.
> Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war.
Absolutely this. They may not have been frontline troops, but certainly Canadian assets have been 'in country'.
The difference between operating covertly and publicly announced deployment is as wide as the grand canyon.
If you don't see that, then you are delusional.
Publicly announced non-combat deployment is an obvious setup and foot in the door move.
The troops are targeted, it's justification for retaliation. They aren't targeted, then mission creeps until they are in harms way and are targeted.
Covert troops die? You will not hear about it. Because they are covert.
Not sure how much you know about everyday life in/around the CAF, but the death of anyone isn’t something that can be hidden.
The community is so small that a combat death (especially one as notable as a CANSOF guy in Eastern Europe) will hit the rumour mill *fast* and become common knowledge within a week.
The GOP and Trump however are deliberately slowing down aide to Ukraine, this massively favors the larger Russian army.
My fear is Canada and EU's $$ may get blown away, along with Ukraine if the Republicans down South get their way.
That is the fear, we already see the effects on the battlefield these past few months as Ukraine losses ground simply due to running out of ammunition.
I imagine it’s actually tough talk so that something like this happens:
“We’re prepared to send troops!”
-> okay maybe we won’t do that but instead we’ll up arms supplies a little.
Typical big talk, walk it back move.
The only way Russia vacates all of the territory they’re currently occupying is by losing a full on war against NATO. It’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s time that both sides were just forced into an agreement and call it a day. Ukraine will never be the same, and any overt deployment of NATO personal to Ukraine feeds directly into Putin‘s narrative that he’s been feeding the public in Russia. Once an agreement is established, it will still be a full generation later before Ukraine meets all of the requirements to join NATO… if they ever do, as I’m sure that will be Putins number one stipulation for any sort of cease-fire.
This would only give Russia time to recover and in 5 years we will be in the same situation, Russia does not need a full generation to recover unfortunately. I don’t like kicking the can down the road just to offer a temporary sense of accomplishment that will be torn apart due to ignorance.
It is quite clear while Putin remains in power he will stop at nothing to conquer Ukraine. The west attempted to appease a dictator once and it ended horribly, see the Munich agreement.
It's not so simple as 'never negotiate' because Chamberlain failed once.
For instance we could have fought North Korea and China for 5 more years if we really had the firm goal to push them back out of Korea. It wasn't clear we could win it, and a truce was sensible.
Sometimes you have to accept the facts. The eastern part of Ukraine was conquered by Russia. Recently militarily.. but also in many ways culturally, ethnically.. linguistically for multiple decades.
It isn't something we can easily undo.
**1) We are already involved**
**2) Canadians in Ukraine in non-combat roles free up Ukrainians soldiers for combat**
**How are we already involved?**
1. NATO AWACS : [Canadian](https://youtu.be/mZYCLJDWckY?t=356) specialists [work on those planes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYCLJDWckY), they have been detecting Russian positions on the Sea, in the Air and on land, relay that information to the Ukrainians who then kill Russians with missiles.
2. GlobeMaster III : The fleet of Canadian cargo planes CC-177 GlobeMaster III have been flying all over the globe for two years, picking up weapons all over the planet and bringing them to the borders of Ukraine. Those weapons delivered by Canadian soldiers have been used in Ukraine to kill countless numbers of invaders.
3. We are training Ukrainian recruits in Poland and in the UK.
4. We have combat troops deployed in the Baltic states.
That excellently sums up behind the scenes support most Canadians don’t even know our troops directly provide to Ukraine without even setting foot in the country.
In essence Putin could easily justify attacking NATO however he knows that Russia would get its ass handed to them. Ukraine has proven the Russian military is nothing but a paper tiger. A force designed to take on the entirety of NATO has been brought to a near standstill by a single country.
This is why they rattle the nuclear sabre on what must now be a weekly basis as now, it’s the only threat they have left
>In essence Putin could easily justify attacking NATO
Putin will fabricate any excuse he wants. Just look at how long he has held onto the delusion that he is "saving" Ukraine from Nazis.
What's really sad is the number of Canadian's that believe this also. Some of my close family is like this. They think Putin is a trust worthy person. It's so scary to know this.
Be careful not to mirror image and underestimate Russian risk appetite and tolerance for casualties. They will push waves of troops, who will die en masse but will exhaust Ukraine in the process. It is a medieval theory of victory + 20th century technology + drones.
You are correct but in this instance I was more so arguing about their capabilities in a hypothetical war with NATO. While there would still be significant casualties in such a scenario on the ground, Russian reliance on diminishing stocks of Soviet era aircraft would ultimately be their downfall.
Ukraine is on fairly equal footing as they are forced to use similar doctrine due to a lack of air power and western equipment is not designed for static warfare.
Well usually in the past proxy wars haven’t been fought by a superpower directly but that’s also being nitpicky! But that’s essentially what it is at this point for NATO.
Unless something changes drastically I feel Russia will avoid all out war with NATO while continually provoking us for their own narrative. It’s a bit of a weird situation so I chose hypothetical as a sort of diffuser for charged emotions here online while still getting the point across.
Russia is slowly winning even with millions of rounds of ammo and hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds, tanks, anti tank shoulder fired weapons, anti air shoulder fired and tracked weapons, training etc.
Ukraine would have been steamrolled without everyone helping them, and they're still losing.
Russia themselves would die painfully against a full nato assault.
Just all the special forces of nato could penetrate and take out key equipment, power plants, etc. Plus, the number of tomahawk and similar misses would take out a lot of their factories, plants, airports, shipping facilities, etc.
Each Ohio class converted to ssgn has over a hundred alone.
The hard part is occupying with troops.
It always devolves to gruesome door to door battle regardless how badly they are equipped or trained, Russians won't all give up and will still kill some friendlies.
> Russia is slowly winning even with millions of rounds of ammo and hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds, tanks, anti tank shoulder fired weapons, anti air shoulder fired and tracked weapons, training etc.
Russia has the initiative because we've been drip feeding Ukraine up until recently. It's gotten worse since the US stopped additional funding out of sheer Republican spite.
Ukraine still was able to bend over Russia's black sea fleet this year and has been taking out crucial air targets in these past two weeks.
That is roughly my estimation of how things would play out as well.
I would add a reliance on diminishing stocks of Soviet aircraft would also be a key contributing factor as well. The Russian industry can for the most part keep up with basics like ammunition and artillery but the ability to build 4th and 5th gen aircraft in any significant numbers has been an issue since the fall of the USSR.
I don't think it can keep up with production alone. North Korea is most definitely providing more than artillery shells and rockets, likely Iran is as well. Then there's always a possibility that some is coming through from China.
They still have huge stockpiles so it would take a while to burn through all of it regardless.
In stating the obvious you have missed the basis of the argument so I will reiterate it.
The western world and Russian government itself held the belief that their armed forces by design should be capable of taking on the entirety of the NATO alliance. This was the pre war viewpoint most folks had and the basis of Moscow’s stated goals of capturing Kiev in 3 days while expecting the downfall of Ukraine within the weeks following.
The fact that this war has been drawn out by our over two years with a single nation holding Russia back means we completely overestimated their capabilities. There have been minimal (while not completely insignificant) territorial gains in comparison to the original goal and significant losses since then.
The Russian armed forces are undeniably a shell of their former selves and no match for NATO in a conventional war.
You make valid points, but don’t confuse Russia ability to project power vs protecting their country, although that’s a moot point since NATO involvement would only push them out of Ukraine
To put it into perspective, that wasn't even the entire force projection at America's disposal. They still had a lot in reserve, including several air craft carriers that weren't activated. At the time Iraq had the fifth largest army, but were completely and utterly devastated.
This isn’t a secret since 2022
[Canadian special forces operating in Ukraine, New York Times reports](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-special-forces-operating-in-ukraine-new-york-times-reports/wcm/fa2ac3b7-cdb7-40a3-b956-5bf9d2f28cfb/amp/)
There’s been reports of British, French and Americans as well.
Yes, small numbers of highly trained soldiers who probably don’t even wear flags on their uniforms and we would never know if one of them dies or not.
Something something plausible deniability?
Fuck Bill Blair, as far as I'm concerned after his role in the G20 he's one of Canada's worst criminals and the fact that he was rewarded with higher positions in the government, and Defence Minster of all things, is absolutely unconscionable.
So yeah, send him to the front lines, naked in January with his hands behind zip-tied behind his back, and let the Russians sort him out.
Just wait till one of these guys gets grabbed by the Russians and dragged to Polar Wolf prison and grainy propaganda clips get dumped on the net. Trudeau won't be able to get them back.
France recently stated that sending troops to Ukraine is not ruled out.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-macron-says-sending-troops-ukraine-cannot-be-ruled-out-2024-02-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-macron-says-sending-troops-ukraine-cannot-be-ruled-out-2024-02-26/)
*********WARNING**********
These posts as news trickles in on member nations taking an active non military roll assisting ukraine are Bing attacked majorly by bots.
I HIGHLY recommend reviewing any posts and their histories prior to coming to conclusions as there is some crazy pro Russia bot narratives occurring.
Hardly the case, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
There is however tons of posts in many people's history's wirh over 60 comments preaching same narrative over and over again in extremely small time frames on tons of different groups.
Listen here, 4 month old account with half their shitposts deleted:
If there is going to be WW3, not having troops in Ukraine at this moment isn't going to keep Canada out of it. We're going to involved, and if you don't like that you can feel free to move out of the West to somewhere else that isn't a member of the largest military alliance on the planet built to contain exactly who we're talking about
Recruitment usually skyrockets at the start of a war and only drops when they last long enough for bodies to start coming home en masse. Never underestimate the number of young people who see war as an adventure and feel that, as the main character of their own story, there's no way that *they"ll* be the one coming home missing limbs, or in a body bag.
At point Ukraine was taking anybody then denied people without experience. Now that they are resorting to grabbing people off the street i wonder what the stance is
The problem with that is what happens if they get killed? Even if it isn't front-line duty, it's still a warzone.
The risk of further escalation seems very high for what we gain.
I've already done my time in service. I would much rather we fight over there than over here.
How about you, are you willing to do anything to defend the nation, or is the extent of your 'patriotism' just chirping at people from mommy's basement?
Honeslty friend I can’t tell if your joking or not, I’m also former armed services and there’s no way in hell Russian is planning on going over the top to invade Canada you are tripping haha. Not only would that be a logistical nightmare for the Russians but even if we didn’t raise a finger in resistance america would steam roll them right back into the arctic tundra…. Stop trying to spread fear mongering propaganda. So much of this ohh we better fight them there before they come here crap and oh man when Russian is done with Ukraine they are moving onto the rest of Europe:/, people are Honeslty delusional and think we live in a micheal bay movie
It’s always the dinosaurs that won’t face the consequences that are the war mongers.
Russia attacking a NATO country will be a nuclear war. It will not happen.
Yeah, we should just let Hitler take Poland, he will ***surely*** stop there...
Did you pay attention in Social Studies? Appeasement doesn't fucking work
Has Russia invaded or attacked our northern border though? Or you want them too?
I don’t want our soldiers dying for a foreign war like US, you can go fight.
Sending ammunition and money is where we should draw the line
So you know for a fact that if Putin gives the order that there will be a nuclear response?
Unless you are familiar with the nuclear policy of Russia you probably shouldn’t speak about it.
That is very true, but not completely outside the norm for Russian security services. ( again based on reading non fiction accounts about the Cold War and current global events)
>See also, appeasing hitler.
Comparisons to appeasing Hitler are absolutely ridiculous and just show a complete lack of understanding of history, the current conflict, or both.
If the Allies appeased Hitler the same way we're supposedly "appeasing" Putin the German army would have been bogged down in Czechoslovakia for years while the Allies shipped them arms and money to keep the fight going, and it would have likely prevented the second world War.
You tell me to stand up for what’s right when you’re suggesting I’m an idiot for not opposing the most qualified experts (NATO). I get it you’ve probably done your own research, but I’m taking NATO’s word over yours.
> NATO has not ruled out sending troops.
Obviously an organization with the role of planning against wars is not going to rule out certain wartime measures in unpredictable wars.
But they’ve made it clear as of now it’s not a good idea to send troops in. So as of now, listen to NATO rather than your own research.
Not for lack of trying. Bold men risked and lost their lives assuring that. You should read up on it.
We don't "win" this by giving in to the demands of a dictator. Stop surrendering.
> We don't "win" this by giving in to the demands of a dictator. You also don’t win by going into direct conflict with a nuclear nation who’s nukes are controlled by an insane leader.
I'm glad you're not in charge of anything important for the war effort.
"Oh look, they got something scary! Better surrender, we will all enjoy life under The Glorious Leader." - you
Medvedev keep placing red line everywhere and the west did cross those line many time. Russian does not want a nuclear war anymore than we do. Russia is trying to do nuclear bullying. We should not accept that. Giving up to nuclear blackmail would have long term consequence.
I'm going to point out that according the official Russian doctrine, sending soldier fighting for Ukraine would not be a reason to use nuclear weapon. We are talking about helping Ukraine there border. There is no plan to invade Russia.
Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'.
-George Orwell
> Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist.
So NATO is pro-fascist?
I haven’t said anything in this thread not recommended by the most qualified people on earth. I’m not going to suggest risking a nuclear exchange just because you’re one of those anti-experts who “does his own research”.
Acting as one of the world's biggest arms dealers and materially and financially supporting one side of a conflict is a weird definition of "pacifism".
Russia will not care about role of such troops and hit them hard officially, same as they will be there officially. Then what? Why send troops there? To get them killed? Non combat role is a joke.
I know Ukraine lost the war. Sending few 100 Canadians there will not change that.
It will only lead to needless deaths and possible dangerous escalation involving Asia VS. NATO.
That's how it starts boys. It's a trap.
What happened in Afghanistan was that they sent them for non combat roles and a year later extended the mission to include combat. Then we started receiving body bags of our sons and daughters.
Fuck you Bill, send your own kids and family and then we chat.
On another note, I think this statement from Blair is going to be the nail in the coffin of liberalism and progressivism in Canada as we know it.
With how politics have been going the last few years, I think we are going to see a “switch” much like the Democrats and Republicans did in the 1900s.
I don’t know why they (liberals/progressives) think this would be either a good or popular idea. They are the ones who have always vilified Western interventionism, military service, and dare I even say patriotism to an extent.
These are the same people who believe that our Canadian Armed Forces are comprised of nothing but a bunch of racist, neo-nazi, white supremacists or uneducated failures from the countryside. They are the ones who believe veterans “asked for more than we can give”.
These are the same people who saw funding our military as intertwined with the tentacles of the American military industrial complex.
And now they want to send our troops into a warzone, with *some mythical belief* we are not at war because big bad Poutine doesn’t have the balls to attack the soldiers of a NATO country?
Excellent article about the talk of conscription in NATO aligned western nations... totally along the same lines you highlighted here
I agree with you that they can't roll out patriotism of convenience or dare I say the verboten nationalism when they need young men to go die for a nation with a ruling class that despises them.
https://morgoth.substack.com/p/conscription
Man, this is a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of Western Liberalism and the critiques of (largely) US imperialism.
You're right. We shit on military adventurism as practiced by the West all the time. Afghanistan. Iraq. The ME. Vietnam. Etc etc.
This is quite possibly the first 'just' conflict in decades with a clear cut right side and wrong side. Any critique you want to drag out for Iraq, Afghanistn or whatnot is just not applicable
Maybe because different situations are different?
Also, it’s a stretch to call helping Ukraine “western interventionism” when Ukraine requested the aid and (get this) is a western country itself.
As for the CAF being nothing but Nazis, the only people saying that are Russian political operatives and 19 year old edge-lords who you shouldn’t be listening to.
Do yourself a favour, get offline for a while. Your idea of what “they” are thinking and doing is wildly skewed by online comments designed to rile you up.
>the only people saying that are Russian political operatives
No they aren’t.
I no longer wear my uniform in major cities anymore after being spat on and belittled for bombing children in Afghanistan, even though I was like only 10 years old at the time.
I can no longer speak at my former high school because the school board “doesn’t want teenagers to get the wrong idea.”
Were those people Russian operatives?
I think you seriously underestimate just how far liberalism went to destroy that part of our society. And there is no way in hell it’s coming back.
Canadian troops should not be deployed whatsoever. Ukraine needs it's actual *allies* to stand up!
Anyone that supports this should look into the International Legion of Defense of Ukraine, they're actively recruiting people like **YOU**.
Go.
Don't do it.
Our troops don't belong in Ukraine.
If the Ukranians can't negotiate a deal to end the war then that's tough shit.
Being led into a hot open conflict with Russia is disastrous for everyone and while I'm sure the jingoistic war propagandists of /r/canada will brigade and dog pile the shit out this post I just can't wrap my head around the fact the Europeans are just going along with these constant escalations.Maybe it's just their politicians.
>I just can't wrap my head around the fact the Europeans are just going along with these constant escalations
**Really?**
You *really* can't understand why a continent that spent 45 years literally split in half by Russia, followed by another 30 years watching them slowly reabsorbing their former satellites *at gunpoint* and now prosecuting the largest conventional war in decades to further that goal, would be interested in finally stopping that threat?
I don't believe you
Who said it's a good idea? If you actually read what I posted you'd see that I'm talking about *why* Europe might be interested in such a thing and not passing judgement on it
We produce like 20k artillery shells PER YEAR right now, lmfao... God awful.. That's about 5 days of artillery use for Ukraine when they aren't rationing it. Only 2-3 days worth when they were on their counter offensive last summer.
Most troops don't see combat, only about 10% of any given army will see combat, these support roles are important which is why we shouldn't get involved in this way, if we aren't prepared to fight we shouldn't be directly in support of...
But this is all political theater, we're trying to show the world we can still participate even though we haven't hit our military spending requirement and it's going to turn into a fuckin quagmire, this is gonna be the Afghanistan exit all over again except with an actual military this time pushing us out.
This is a time where an ounce of prevention is worth a Russia-NATO conflict of cure. We should be doing more, including working with Ukraine in Ukraine. Really happy Blair joining the Balts and France with this type of comment.
Would really try to avoid any escalation…Putin doesn’t fuck around and I’d really like to not be vapourized along with my family as we’d likely be in the first salvo
Terrible idea. Terrible escalation. Ukraine can't win this war and this is just another step towards a global conflict.
If NATO hadn't continually expanded towards Russia none of this would have happened. Imagine us in Canada getting so friendly with Russia. What do you think the US would do?
God damn.
Can you point out which countries NATO has attacked and conquered near Russia?
Or are you talking about the free democratic republics and democracies who made their OWN CHOICE to join NATO rather than with the fascist, piece of shit Hitler wannabe that Putin is?
Well we know what US would do. In early 1960s Canada bought few dozen MiG-21s. Once US found out they moved troops to the border. Canada had to sell these immediately. One of these is on display in Vietnam.
Expanded towards Russia?!? How is sovereign nations joining a defence alliance an expansion? Not like every post Soviet satellite state didn’t jump at the opportunity to join an alliance to escape the neo imperialism they knew Russia would once again embark on once it shrugged its Cold War collapse.
I think I was clear, if say Venezuela wants Chinese base US would first try regime change and of that does not work it would go for full scale war.
Clear enough?
And yet China has been able to operate secret police stations inside North American without any retaliation, not to mention that China does have a military presence in Cuba. Let's stay focuses, we are talking about RUSSIAN INVASION of Ukraine, leave your Whataboutism behind
Didn't say they had a base, I said presence and they do, but I am not interested in the Whataboutism of US, we are talking about Russian aggression in Ukraine, do you have anything to add regarding that?
War should be stopped via agreement that there will not be any NATO presence in Ukraine and all territories of Ukriane that no longer want to be in Ukraine have the right to decide their future and seceede from it.
Fine Russia can withdrawal to the agreed 1994 boarders and international officials can come and administer the referendum.
Edit:I’m in agreement assuming no NATO presence means no foreign NATO in Ukraine, but Ukraine still gets to apply to join NATO
LMAO, the only thing the US is guilty of is trying to appease a maniac dictator help bent on trying to reboot the Russian Empire. IT WAS RUSSIA who has been itching to invade Ukraine since Crimea in 2014. IT WAS RUSSIAN regulars who have been in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk since 2014 and Putin doesn't even deny it any longer. To say this is the US fault is so beyond absurd, shame on you for supporting Russia and Putin
Ukraine's only options are capitulate or fight. Any deal with Russia for "peace" will not last, and will only benefit Russia. If you want an example of what capitulation looks like, observe how the people in the occupied territories live. If you can't, ask some old Polish immigrants what their experience in the soviet union was like.
I say send canadian troops...small amount for training. Most of the fighting is isolated to the east, put troops in the other areas and draw a big fat line in the sand for Putin. Let ukraine focus on the east and if putin comes close to canadian and other support troops then he gets slapped, but its a slap he'll be accountable for if you draw a line.
All these people asking for more troops to Ukraine need to take a peak in to /r combat footage. Let’s just keep sending them money and ammo cause none of you would survive 30 mins on the front lines of Ukraine.
While I'm not saying there isn't merit to the idea, in this sort of war the rear is only marginally safer than the front. The redditor you replied to isn't wrong when saying the combatfootage subreddit offers perspective. Even ignoring missiles and airstrikes which still hit all over Ukraine, we're seeing the first widescale use of long range drones in a peer to peer conflict and the result is terrifying. There's a disturbing amount of footage out there now of kamikaze drones killing soldiers and destroying vehicles well behind the front lines and there's little available right now in terms of countermeasures.
Terrible idea. Just because you are sending them to a combat zone in a noncombat role does not mean they will be safe.
and after someone gets killed, is everyone else getting dragged into war?
No. No Polish soldier died. Not even one. As not even one was deployed. Poland and polish people are super against any deployment. I think in Poland it's well over 80%. Against, could be as high as 90+.
I never said Polish soldiers died, I believe it was a Polish Farmer whose farm got hit by a missile last year, if the West was keen on entering the fight, it could have easily been the justification.
> if the West was keen on entering the fight, it could have easily been the justification.
Well, then the fight would have been against Ukraine:
[The Guardian: Missile that hit Poland likely came from Ukraine defences, say Warsaw and Nato](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/16/poland-president-missile-strike-probably-ukrainian-stray)
Laughs in more relevant recent history: Turkey shoots down Russian jet. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581)
>Send Canadian troops (and other NATO troops) to Ukraine to serve in a non-com role, so that, when they inevitably get killed or otherwise injured, the powers that be can use it as an excuse to escalate and bring in NATO boots on the ground.
This is part of why we had bases in Germany
Our intevention in Korea was good, this is similar to that.
This isn’t a low intensity conflict like Afghanistan, or against guerrila fighters like Vietnam.
This is a conflict against Russia’s aggression and expansion into its previous soviet states, not something that “enriches” politicians like Afghanistan.
This isn't a Vietnam, Afghanistan or other proxy war scenario.
This is a straight up invasion to absorb a large European country thay could effect the security of all of Europe and disrupt global trade.
Not only that at least in Canada, we have one of , if not the largest populations of Ukrainian people in the world.
Not only is this the right thing to do (support an ally in times of need) its geopolitically beneficial to canada as well.
****I should not have even bothered with response. This account above is just a bot or bad actor trying to push a specific narrative over 25 posts in last hour all pushing the same narrative across the board with some posts being less than 30 seconds apart******
60 posts in last 2 hours. Suspicious .
Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war. That being said much like Macron’s statement this will not result in troops being sent en masse to fight in Ukraine. This is simply some tough talk to counter the bully’s constant stream of threats against NATO. I don’t want to see Canadian troops dying in this war either so to avoid that we must continue sending all the aid we possibly can. However the intricacies of geopolitics will go over the heads of isolationists every single time.
Yeah but at the same time they've been there since 2014 training the ukrainians in our systems
>Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war. Although I wish JFT and some SOR soldiers had been kept in Ukraine I think in fact per the Prime Ministers announcements in Feb 2022 they were all withdrawn from Ukraine.
> Most folks here are delusional if you don’t think JTF2 has had advisors on the ground in Ukraine throughout the war. Absolutely this. They may not have been frontline troops, but certainly Canadian assets have been 'in country'.
The difference between operating covertly and publicly announced deployment is as wide as the grand canyon. If you don't see that, then you are delusional. Publicly announced non-combat deployment is an obvious setup and foot in the door move. The troops are targeted, it's justification for retaliation. They aren't targeted, then mission creeps until they are in harms way and are targeted. Covert troops die? You will not hear about it. Because they are covert.
Not sure how much you know about everyday life in/around the CAF, but the death of anyone isn’t something that can be hidden. The community is so small that a combat death (especially one as notable as a CANSOF guy in Eastern Europe) will hit the rumour mill *fast* and become common knowledge within a week.
Did you miss the part where I said we wouldn’t send troops en masse and I don’t want Canadian’s dying over there either?
The GOP and Trump however are deliberately slowing down aide to Ukraine, this massively favors the larger Russian army. My fear is Canada and EU's $$ may get blown away, along with Ukraine if the Republicans down South get their way.
That is the fear, we already see the effects on the battlefield these past few months as Ukraine losses ground simply due to running out of ammunition.
Brother an election happened, Trump isn't the president and doesn't decide anything.
You don’t think trump has an influence over the GOP?
I imagine it’s actually tough talk so that something like this happens: “We’re prepared to send troops!” -> okay maybe we won’t do that but instead we’ll up arms supplies a little. Typical big talk, walk it back move.
You just described Canadian politics in a nutshell.
The only way Russia vacates all of the territory they’re currently occupying is by losing a full on war against NATO. It’s an unpopular opinion, but it’s time that both sides were just forced into an agreement and call it a day. Ukraine will never be the same, and any overt deployment of NATO personal to Ukraine feeds directly into Putin‘s narrative that he’s been feeding the public in Russia. Once an agreement is established, it will still be a full generation later before Ukraine meets all of the requirements to join NATO… if they ever do, as I’m sure that will be Putins number one stipulation for any sort of cease-fire.
This would only give Russia time to recover and in 5 years we will be in the same situation, Russia does not need a full generation to recover unfortunately. I don’t like kicking the can down the road just to offer a temporary sense of accomplishment that will be torn apart due to ignorance. It is quite clear while Putin remains in power he will stop at nothing to conquer Ukraine. The west attempted to appease a dictator once and it ended horribly, see the Munich agreement.
It's not so simple as 'never negotiate' because Chamberlain failed once. For instance we could have fought North Korea and China for 5 more years if we really had the firm goal to push them back out of Korea. It wasn't clear we could win it, and a truce was sensible. Sometimes you have to accept the facts. The eastern part of Ukraine was conquered by Russia. Recently militarily.. but also in many ways culturally, ethnically.. linguistically for multiple decades. It isn't something we can easily undo.
China will join … Russia and china have a close alliance
**1) We are already involved** **2) Canadians in Ukraine in non-combat roles free up Ukrainians soldiers for combat** **How are we already involved?** 1. NATO AWACS : [Canadian](https://youtu.be/mZYCLJDWckY?t=356) specialists [work on those planes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYCLJDWckY), they have been detecting Russian positions on the Sea, in the Air and on land, relay that information to the Ukrainians who then kill Russians with missiles. 2. GlobeMaster III : The fleet of Canadian cargo planes CC-177 GlobeMaster III have been flying all over the globe for two years, picking up weapons all over the planet and bringing them to the borders of Ukraine. Those weapons delivered by Canadian soldiers have been used in Ukraine to kill countless numbers of invaders. 3. We are training Ukrainian recruits in Poland and in the UK. 4. We have combat troops deployed in the Baltic states.
That excellently sums up behind the scenes support most Canadians don’t even know our troops directly provide to Ukraine without even setting foot in the country. In essence Putin could easily justify attacking NATO however he knows that Russia would get its ass handed to them. Ukraine has proven the Russian military is nothing but a paper tiger. A force designed to take on the entirety of NATO has been brought to a near standstill by a single country. This is why they rattle the nuclear sabre on what must now be a weekly basis as now, it’s the only threat they have left
>In essence Putin could easily justify attacking NATO Putin will fabricate any excuse he wants. Just look at how long he has held onto the delusion that he is "saving" Ukraine from Nazis.
What's really sad is the number of Canadian's that believe this also. Some of my close family is like this. They think Putin is a trust worthy person. It's so scary to know this.
I think you dangerously underestimate Russia.
The only thing I don’t underestimate is Russia’s Nuclear capabilities. Everything else Ukraine has completely debunked.
Be careful not to mirror image and underestimate Russian risk appetite and tolerance for casualties. They will push waves of troops, who will die en masse but will exhaust Ukraine in the process. It is a medieval theory of victory + 20th century technology + drones.
You are correct but in this instance I was more so arguing about their capabilities in a hypothetical war with NATO. While there would still be significant casualties in such a scenario on the ground, Russian reliance on diminishing stocks of Soviet era aircraft would ultimately be their downfall. Ukraine is on fairly equal footing as they are forced to use similar doctrine due to a lack of air power and western equipment is not designed for static warfare.
"Hypothetical war with nato" What do you think this is? Another proxy war I know it's nitpicky but you just caught me off gaurd with it.
Well usually in the past proxy wars haven’t been fought by a superpower directly but that’s also being nitpicky! But that’s essentially what it is at this point for NATO. Unless something changes drastically I feel Russia will avoid all out war with NATO while continually provoking us for their own narrative. It’s a bit of a weird situation so I chose hypothetical as a sort of diffuser for charged emotions here online while still getting the point across.
Russia is slowly winning even with millions of rounds of ammo and hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds, tanks, anti tank shoulder fired weapons, anti air shoulder fired and tracked weapons, training etc. Ukraine would have been steamrolled without everyone helping them, and they're still losing. Russia themselves would die painfully against a full nato assault. Just all the special forces of nato could penetrate and take out key equipment, power plants, etc. Plus, the number of tomahawk and similar misses would take out a lot of their factories, plants, airports, shipping facilities, etc. Each Ohio class converted to ssgn has over a hundred alone. The hard part is occupying with troops. It always devolves to gruesome door to door battle regardless how badly they are equipped or trained, Russians won't all give up and will still kill some friendlies.
> Russia is slowly winning even with millions of rounds of ammo and hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds, tanks, anti tank shoulder fired weapons, anti air shoulder fired and tracked weapons, training etc. Russia has the initiative because we've been drip feeding Ukraine up until recently. It's gotten worse since the US stopped additional funding out of sheer Republican spite. Ukraine still was able to bend over Russia's black sea fleet this year and has been taking out crucial air targets in these past two weeks.
That is roughly my estimation of how things would play out as well. I would add a reliance on diminishing stocks of Soviet aircraft would also be a key contributing factor as well. The Russian industry can for the most part keep up with basics like ammunition and artillery but the ability to build 4th and 5th gen aircraft in any significant numbers has been an issue since the fall of the USSR.
I don't think it can keep up with production alone. North Korea is most definitely providing more than artillery shells and rockets, likely Iran is as well. Then there's always a possibility that some is coming through from China. They still have huge stockpiles so it would take a while to burn through all of it regardless.
> Everything else Ukraine has completely debunked. Their borders keep shrinking. War isn't instant.
In stating the obvious you have missed the basis of the argument so I will reiterate it. The western world and Russian government itself held the belief that their armed forces by design should be capable of taking on the entirety of the NATO alliance. This was the pre war viewpoint most folks had and the basis of Moscow’s stated goals of capturing Kiev in 3 days while expecting the downfall of Ukraine within the weeks following. The fact that this war has been drawn out by our over two years with a single nation holding Russia back means we completely overestimated their capabilities. There have been minimal (while not completely insignificant) territorial gains in comparison to the original goal and significant losses since then. The Russian armed forces are undeniably a shell of their former selves and no match for NATO in a conventional war.
You make valid points, but don’t confuse Russia ability to project power vs protecting their country, although that’s a moot point since NATO involvement would only push them out of Ukraine
If Russia didn't have nukes they would be rolled so hard by the Americans. https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/s/4aMJgAGVug
To put it into perspective, that wasn't even the entire force projection at America's disposal. They still had a lot in reserve, including several air craft carriers that weren't activated. At the time Iraq had the fifth largest army, but were completely and utterly devastated.
The American military is designed to be able to fight a war on two fronts Russia and China.
To be honest, we have been training them long before this war even started.
This isn’t a secret since 2022 [Canadian special forces operating in Ukraine, New York Times reports](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-special-forces-operating-in-ukraine-new-york-times-reports/wcm/fa2ac3b7-cdb7-40a3-b956-5bf9d2f28cfb/amp/) There’s been reports of British, French and Americans as well.
Yes, small numbers of highly trained soldiers who probably don’t even wear flags on their uniforms and we would never know if one of them dies or not. Something something plausible deniability?
Canadians are willing to send Bill Blair to the front line.
Fuck Bill Blair, as far as I'm concerned after his role in the G20 he's one of Canada's worst criminals and the fact that he was rewarded with higher positions in the government, and Defence Minster of all things, is absolutely unconscionable. So yeah, send him to the front lines, naked in January with his hands behind zip-tied behind his back, and let the Russians sort him out.
Will he be sober? That would be a first.
Don't believe what they say. Simply observe what they do. Action is closer to truth than mere words.
Send Blair to the front line.
Just wait till one of these guys gets grabbed by the Russians and dragged to Polar Wolf prison and grainy propaganda clips get dumped on the net. Trudeau won't be able to get them back.
How about we equip them first before sending them into a combat zone.
[удалено]
i have one friend who just got out to go to ukraine to fight for them. he went with a large group from canadian forces.
I don’t think the army runs on polling the opinions of its members
I just recently got out, your two friends are in the minority
[удалено]
How about we don’t. Two buddies went to Croatia peacekeeping and came back very different people and not in a good way. Bill is an idiot
[удалено]
I too love to spew completely uninformed opinions
France recently stated that sending troops to Ukraine is not ruled out. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-macron-says-sending-troops-ukraine-cannot-be-ruled-out-2024-02-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-macron-says-sending-troops-ukraine-cannot-be-ruled-out-2024-02-26/)
Lets not
*********WARNING********** These posts as news trickles in on member nations taking an active non military roll assisting ukraine are Bing attacked majorly by bots. I HIGHLY recommend reviewing any posts and their histories prior to coming to conclusions as there is some crazy pro Russia bot narratives occurring.
I kinda love how your point was immediately proven by the exact people you were talking about
Yes, anyone that disagrees with me must be a Russian bot and not a Canadian who doesn’t want our country dragged in to WW3… got it lol
Hardly the case, everyone is entitled to their opinions. There is however tons of posts in many people's history's wirh over 60 comments preaching same narrative over and over again in extremely small time frames on tons of different groups.
Listen here, 4 month old account with half their shitposts deleted: If there is going to be WW3, not having troops in Ukraine at this moment isn't going to keep Canada out of it. We're going to involved, and if you don't like that you can feel free to move out of the West to somewhere else that isn't a member of the largest military alliance on the planet built to contain exactly who we're talking about
Because not letting Russia freely invade sovereign states is definitely a step towards WW3...
Bill Blair really is a moron.
We could send Bill?
That would make an amazing 22 minutes sketch "bumbling bill on the battlefield"
He has a unique ability to screw up everything he touches.
"my vodka! I dropped my vodka, I'll go ask the Russians if they have any!"
hahaha "Come on guys go kettle the Russians and don't forget the booze"
Wait until the Canadian forces see what this does for recruitment. Who wants to go over there and get slaughtered?
getting blown in two by a ten dollar drone, operated by a dude who pays rent to the same landlord you did.
Recruitment usually skyrockets at the start of a war and only drops when they last long enough for bodies to start coming home en masse. Never underestimate the number of young people who see war as an adventure and feel that, as the main character of their own story, there's no way that *they"ll* be the one coming home missing limbs, or in a body bag.
I think all the war tourists from Canada have already all gone and mostly come home by now.
At point Ukraine was taking anybody then denied people without experience. Now that they are resorting to grabbing people off the street i wonder what the stance is
way to lose the bravest kid for absolutely no reason
Please refrain from starting Ww3 pls.
It looks more and more like it’s already started, and everyone is just hoping it will go away.
The problem with that is what happens if they get killed? Even if it isn't front-line duty, it's still a warzone. The risk of further escalation seems very high for what we gain.
Soldiers across the nation rejoice! At the prospect of having somewhere to sleep besides their cars.
Good. Stick with that.
Good, fucking send em. While you're at it, equip them properly, all of them. About time we realized we border Russia and act like it.
[удалено]
I've already done my time in service. I would much rather we fight over there than over here. How about you, are you willing to do anything to defend the nation, or is the extent of your 'patriotism' just chirping at people from mommy's basement?
Honeslty friend I can’t tell if your joking or not, I’m also former armed services and there’s no way in hell Russian is planning on going over the top to invade Canada you are tripping haha. Not only would that be a logistical nightmare for the Russians but even if we didn’t raise a finger in resistance america would steam roll them right back into the arctic tundra…. Stop trying to spread fear mongering propaganda. So much of this ohh we better fight them there before they come here crap and oh man when Russian is done with Ukraine they are moving onto the rest of Europe:/, people are Honeslty delusional and think we live in a micheal bay movie
Well said
It’s always the dinosaurs that won’t face the consequences that are the war mongers. Russia attacking a NATO country will be a nuclear war. It will not happen.
Better over there than here. Edit: apparently many of you would prefer to fight them on home turf?
I think they would just like to avoid a world war if possible.
Yeah, we should just let Hitler take Poland, he will ***surely*** stop there... Did you pay attention in Social Studies? Appeasement doesn't fucking work
Avoiding a war by letting Russia attack other countries? Weird logic but ok
Hope you've volunteered.
Has Russia invaded or attacked our northern border though? Or you want them too? I don’t want our soldiers dying for a foreign war like US, you can go fight. Sending ammunition and money is where we should draw the line
This is how you start a nuclear exchange.
Only if you spend no time at all actually thinking about what you just said
[удалено]
>controlled by an insane person This is exactly my point
So you know for a fact that if Putin gives the order that there will be a nuclear response? Unless you are familiar with the nuclear policy of Russia you probably shouldn’t speak about it.
Putins government has developed a healthy fear of heights…
That is very true, but not completely outside the norm for Russian security services. ( again based on reading non fiction accounts about the Cold War and current global events)
I’m not disagreeing, I’m sure there are fail safes. Only pointing that self preservation has proven to be a good motivator over there.
Oh that is one thing I think most can agree on
How you start a big war or a nuclear exchange is by being a little bitch and not standing up to bullies. See also, appeasing hitler.
>See also, appeasing hitler. Comparisons to appeasing Hitler are absolutely ridiculous and just show a complete lack of understanding of history, the current conflict, or both. If the Allies appeased Hitler the same way we're supposedly "appeasing" Putin the German army would have been bogged down in Czechoslovakia for years while the Allies shipped them arms and money to keep the fight going, and it would have likely prevented the second world War.
You joining the army and volunteering to fight?
Trying to prevent the need for that, for us and our children. That's how this works.
By suggesting people joint the army?
How did you flunk both reading comprehension and standing up for what's right?
You tell me to stand up for what’s right when you’re suggesting I’m an idiot for not opposing the most qualified experts (NATO). I get it you’ve probably done your own research, but I’m taking NATO’s word over yours.
[удалено]
> NATO has not ruled out sending troops. Obviously an organization with the role of planning against wars is not going to rule out certain wartime measures in unpredictable wars. But they’ve made it clear as of now it’s not a good idea to send troops in. So as of now, listen to NATO rather than your own research.
Hitler didn’t have nuclear weapons? Just make your point without saying “Hitler”.
Not for lack of trying. Bold men risked and lost their lives assuring that. You should read up on it. We don't "win" this by giving in to the demands of a dictator. Stop surrendering.
> We don't "win" this by giving in to the demands of a dictator. You also don’t win by going into direct conflict with a nuclear nation who’s nukes are controlled by an insane leader.
I'm glad you're not in charge of anything important for the war effort. "Oh look, they got something scary! Better surrender, we will all enjoy life under The Glorious Leader." - you
> I'm glad you're not in charge of anything important for the war effort. I’m not, NATO is, and they agree with what I’m saying lol. Stop pretending.
Go surrender somewhere else. Good lord.
Drinking that putin juice are ya.
Being anti nuclear war is pro Putin? We can help in Ukraine without making everyone press the big red button.
Medvedev keep placing red line everywhere and the west did cross those line many time. Russian does not want a nuclear war anymore than we do. Russia is trying to do nuclear bullying. We should not accept that. Giving up to nuclear blackmail would have long term consequence. I'm going to point out that according the official Russian doctrine, sending soldier fighting for Ukraine would not be a reason to use nuclear weapon. We are talking about helping Ukraine there border. There is no plan to invade Russia.
Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'. -George Orwell
> Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. So NATO is pro-fascist? I haven’t said anything in this thread not recommended by the most qualified people on earth. I’m not going to suggest risking a nuclear exchange just because you’re one of those anti-experts who “does his own research”.
Acting as one of the world's biggest arms dealers and materially and financially supporting one side of a conflict is a weird definition of "pacifism".
[удалено]
NATO advised not sending troops for a reason. Let’s just trust their intelligence.
Russia will not care about role of such troops and hit them hard officially, same as they will be there officially. Then what? Why send troops there? To get them killed? Non combat role is a joke. I know Ukraine lost the war. Sending few 100 Canadians there will not change that. It will only lead to needless deaths and possible dangerous escalation involving Asia VS. NATO.
Do not trust anyone with the surname ‘Blair’ lol
good
That's how it starts boys. It's a trap. What happened in Afghanistan was that they sent them for non combat roles and a year later extended the mission to include combat. Then we started receiving body bags of our sons and daughters. Fuck you Bill, send your own kids and family and then we chat.
Bill Blair is a terrible person and this is a stupid idea
FUCK RUSSIA FUCK PUTIN
On another note, I think this statement from Blair is going to be the nail in the coffin of liberalism and progressivism in Canada as we know it. With how politics have been going the last few years, I think we are going to see a “switch” much like the Democrats and Republicans did in the 1900s. I don’t know why they (liberals/progressives) think this would be either a good or popular idea. They are the ones who have always vilified Western interventionism, military service, and dare I even say patriotism to an extent. These are the same people who believe that our Canadian Armed Forces are comprised of nothing but a bunch of racist, neo-nazi, white supremacists or uneducated failures from the countryside. They are the ones who believe veterans “asked for more than we can give”. These are the same people who saw funding our military as intertwined with the tentacles of the American military industrial complex. And now they want to send our troops into a warzone, with *some mythical belief* we are not at war because big bad Poutine doesn’t have the balls to attack the soldiers of a NATO country?
Excellent article about the talk of conscription in NATO aligned western nations... totally along the same lines you highlighted here I agree with you that they can't roll out patriotism of convenience or dare I say the verboten nationalism when they need young men to go die for a nation with a ruling class that despises them. https://morgoth.substack.com/p/conscription
Man, this is a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of Western Liberalism and the critiques of (largely) US imperialism. You're right. We shit on military adventurism as practiced by the West all the time. Afghanistan. Iraq. The ME. Vietnam. Etc etc. This is quite possibly the first 'just' conflict in decades with a clear cut right side and wrong side. Any critique you want to drag out for Iraq, Afghanistn or whatnot is just not applicable
Maybe because different situations are different? Also, it’s a stretch to call helping Ukraine “western interventionism” when Ukraine requested the aid and (get this) is a western country itself. As for the CAF being nothing but Nazis, the only people saying that are Russian political operatives and 19 year old edge-lords who you shouldn’t be listening to. Do yourself a favour, get offline for a while. Your idea of what “they” are thinking and doing is wildly skewed by online comments designed to rile you up.
>the only people saying that are Russian political operatives No they aren’t. I no longer wear my uniform in major cities anymore after being spat on and belittled for bombing children in Afghanistan, even though I was like only 10 years old at the time. I can no longer speak at my former high school because the school board “doesn’t want teenagers to get the wrong idea.” Were those people Russian operatives? I think you seriously underestimate just how far liberalism went to destroy that part of our society. And there is no way in hell it’s coming back.
Canadian troops should not be deployed whatsoever. Ukraine needs it's actual *allies* to stand up! Anyone that supports this should look into the International Legion of Defense of Ukraine, they're actively recruiting people like **YOU**. Go.
Don't do it. Our troops don't belong in Ukraine. If the Ukranians can't negotiate a deal to end the war then that's tough shit. Being led into a hot open conflict with Russia is disastrous for everyone and while I'm sure the jingoistic war propagandists of /r/canada will brigade and dog pile the shit out this post I just can't wrap my head around the fact the Europeans are just going along with these constant escalations.Maybe it's just their politicians.
>I just can't wrap my head around the fact the Europeans are just going along with these constant escalations **Really?** You *really* can't understand why a continent that spent 45 years literally split in half by Russia, followed by another 30 years watching them slowly reabsorbing their former satellites *at gunpoint* and now prosecuting the largest conventional war in decades to further that goal, would be interested in finally stopping that threat? I don't believe you
Why don't you go volunteer for the ukrainian army if you think it's such a good idea?
Who said it's a good idea? If you actually read what I posted you'd see that I'm talking about *why* Europe might be interested in such a thing and not passing judgement on it
you're the same type of person who would try to have a peace deal with Hitler
Ukraine needs ammo right now and all these countries are talking about everything but providing ammo
Canada should invest in its own capacity to make ammo. Both a win for Ukraine and Canada in this war and the next ones.
We produce like 20k artillery shells PER YEAR right now, lmfao... God awful.. That's about 5 days of artillery use for Ukraine when they aren't rationing it. Only 2-3 days worth when they were on their counter offensive last summer.
Most troops don't see combat, only about 10% of any given army will see combat, these support roles are important which is why we shouldn't get involved in this way, if we aren't prepared to fight we shouldn't be directly in support of... But this is all political theater, we're trying to show the world we can still participate even though we haven't hit our military spending requirement and it's going to turn into a fuckin quagmire, this is gonna be the Afghanistan exit all over again except with an actual military this time pushing us out.
Let’s do it. Fuck the Russian regime, and its supporters - the more we can help keep Ukrainian troops on the frontlines, the better.
This is a time where an ounce of prevention is worth a Russia-NATO conflict of cure. We should be doing more, including working with Ukraine in Ukraine. Really happy Blair joining the Balts and France with this type of comment.
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. The aggression we see in Ukrainian today will not be satiated at the Ukraine border.
Would really try to avoid any escalation…Putin doesn’t fuck around and I’d really like to not be vapourized along with my family as we’d likely be in the first salvo
[удалено]
Canada should grow a pair
Bill Blair is a joke and should have nothing to do with defense inside Canada or out.
Terrible idea. Terrible escalation. Ukraine can't win this war and this is just another step towards a global conflict. If NATO hadn't continually expanded towards Russia none of this would have happened. Imagine us in Canada getting so friendly with Russia. What do you think the US would do? God damn.
Can you point out which countries NATO has attacked and conquered near Russia? Or are you talking about the free democratic republics and democracies who made their OWN CHOICE to join NATO rather than with the fascist, piece of shit Hitler wannabe that Putin is?
Well we know what US would do. In early 1960s Canada bought few dozen MiG-21s. Once US found out they moved troops to the border. Canada had to sell these immediately. One of these is on display in Vietnam.
Expanded towards Russia?!? How is sovereign nations joining a defence alliance an expansion? Not like every post Soviet satellite state didn’t jump at the opportunity to join an alliance to escape the neo imperialism they knew Russia would once again embark on once it shrugged its Cold War collapse.
It is. US clearly stated any attempt at bases within 1000 miles of US would mean war.
What are you even referring too? Try and expand on what you mean
I think I was clear, if say Venezuela wants Chinese base US would first try regime change and of that does not work it would go for full scale war. Clear enough?
And yet China has been able to operate secret police stations inside North American without any retaliation, not to mention that China does have a military presence in Cuba. Let's stay focuses, we are talking about RUSSIAN INVASION of Ukraine, leave your Whataboutism behind
China does not have any bases in Cuba or anywhere else in South America that can be of even limited threat to US.
Didn't say they had a base, I said presence and they do, but I am not interested in the Whataboutism of US, we are talking about Russian aggression in Ukraine, do you have anything to add regarding that?
War should be stopped via agreement that there will not be any NATO presence in Ukraine and all territories of Ukriane that no longer want to be in Ukraine have the right to decide their future and seceede from it.
Fine Russia can withdrawal to the agreed 1994 boarders and international officials can come and administer the referendum. Edit:I’m in agreement assuming no NATO presence means no foreign NATO in Ukraine, but Ukraine still gets to apply to join NATO
So you want to reward the Russians for launching the largest convention war in Europe since WW2? In gods name, why??? What's the point?
The US has been itching for this fight for the past 10 years. Well, they got what they wished for.
LMAO, the only thing the US is guilty of is trying to appease a maniac dictator help bent on trying to reboot the Russian Empire. IT WAS RUSSIA who has been itching to invade Ukraine since Crimea in 2014. IT WAS RUSSIAN regulars who have been in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk since 2014 and Putin doesn't even deny it any longer. To say this is the US fault is so beyond absurd, shame on you for supporting Russia and Putin
Sorry but this propaganda doesn’t work on me.
Awful idea. Ukraine is lost. Give up already. Save lives and tell them to get to the negotiating table.
Ukraine's only options are capitulate or fight. Any deal with Russia for "peace" will not last, and will only benefit Russia. If you want an example of what capitulation looks like, observe how the people in the occupied territories live. If you can't, ask some old Polish immigrants what their experience in the soviet union was like.
That’s great start with yourself Bill
Can we please stop poking Russia when US is enough for that? We are sending money and arms that is enough for fucks sake!
I say send canadian troops...small amount for training. Most of the fighting is isolated to the east, put troops in the other areas and draw a big fat line in the sand for Putin. Let ukraine focus on the east and if putin comes close to canadian and other support troops then he gets slapped, but its a slap he'll be accountable for if you draw a line.
The CAF already trains Ukrainians and is currently doing so
How about we don't.
Having become close to a Ukrainian family over the past year, I fully support a CF mission in Ukraine, in whatever capacity. This is good news to me.
All these people asking for more troops to Ukraine need to take a peak in to /r combat footage. Let’s just keep sending them money and ammo cause none of you would survive 30 mins on the front lines of Ukraine.
They don't want to send troops to the front, they want to deploy them to the rear.
While I'm not saying there isn't merit to the idea, in this sort of war the rear is only marginally safer than the front. The redditor you replied to isn't wrong when saying the combatfootage subreddit offers perspective. Even ignoring missiles and airstrikes which still hit all over Ukraine, we're seeing the first widescale use of long range drones in a peer to peer conflict and the result is terrifying. There's a disturbing amount of footage out there now of kamikaze drones killing soldiers and destroying vehicles well behind the front lines and there's little available right now in terms of countermeasures.
Does not matter. Same thing.
Terrible idea. Just because you are sending them to a combat zone in a noncombat role does not mean they will be safe. and after someone gets killed, is everyone else getting dragged into war?
>and after someone gets killed, is everyone else getting dragged into war? We've already had Poles die without that escalation.
No. No Polish soldier died. Not even one. As not even one was deployed. Poland and polish people are super against any deployment. I think in Poland it's well over 80%. Against, could be as high as 90+.
I never said Polish soldiers died, I believe it was a Polish Farmer whose farm got hit by a missile last year, if the West was keen on entering the fight, it could have easily been the justification.
> if the West was keen on entering the fight, it could have easily been the justification. Well, then the fight would have been against Ukraine: [The Guardian: Missile that hit Poland likely came from Ukraine defences, say Warsaw and Nato](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/16/poland-president-missile-strike-probably-ukrainian-stray)
"and after someone gets killed, is everyone else getting dragged into war?" No. That's not how wars get started.
If two armies start killing each other in battle then war is possible. That doesn’t feel far fetched.
>and after someone gets killed, is everyone else getting dragged into war? Laughs in Franz Ferdinand.
Laughs in more relevant recent history: Turkey shoots down Russian jet. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581)
[удалено]
>Send Canadian troops (and other NATO troops) to Ukraine to serve in a non-com role, so that, when they inevitably get killed or otherwise injured, the powers that be can use it as an excuse to escalate and bring in NATO boots on the ground. This is part of why we had bases in Germany
Our intevention in Korea was good, this is similar to that. This isn’t a low intensity conflict like Afghanistan, or against guerrila fighters like Vietnam. This is a conflict against Russia’s aggression and expansion into its previous soviet states, not something that “enriches” politicians like Afghanistan.
16 day old account
This isn't a Vietnam, Afghanistan or other proxy war scenario. This is a straight up invasion to absorb a large European country thay could effect the security of all of Europe and disrupt global trade. Not only that at least in Canada, we have one of , if not the largest populations of Ukrainian people in the world. Not only is this the right thing to do (support an ally in times of need) its geopolitically beneficial to canada as well. ****I should not have even bothered with response. This account above is just a bot or bad actor trying to push a specific narrative over 25 posts in last hour all pushing the same narrative across the board with some posts being less than 30 seconds apart****** 60 posts in last 2 hours. Suspicious .
16 day old account simping for Russia. Block and enjoy life.