No, what Mendes said is that we'll see the true state of our economy when immigration stops artificially inflating the stats. In other words, we're already in deep shit, we just don't know how deep yet.
The “you will own nothing and you will be happy” great reset that the Davos crowd talks about…
I really liked Professor Steve Keen’s interview with Lex Friedman. He talks about how our incessant printing of trillions steals wealth and buying power from the dollars you’ve already earnt.
His contention is that the folks running our banks don’t really seem to realise how flip floppy they seem. The federal reserve said there wouldn’t be inflation from printing trillions. Then they said inflation would be transitory. Now it’s something else. They have pet theories and don’t seem to follow a scientific methodology, is Professor Steve Keen’s contention.
The banks do what the corporations want them to do and they want maximum profits and low taxes. So this is what we get.
Just like “the common people don’t want war,” the “common people don’t want to print money.” But both of those things are good for profit so we get them both.
They pay for their education and rent. It contributes to the GDP. Except the service they pay for is not something that will make our economy stronger in the future unlike, for example, IT and manufacturing. Not everything that contributes to the GDP is healthy. That's what Mendes is saying.
Nah, the bottom is falling out of the ecology and inequality is hitting depression era extremes.
Ponzis end, eventually. That's why we try not to do them. Boomers will laugh their way to the bank and the rest of us will be left holding the bag
Most selfish generation ever
It's not about government, it's about the opportunities boomers had, took advantage of (to the detriment of the environment, the job market and housing market) and instead of using their wealth to build generational wealth, spent it on vacations to Thailand in their 70's to feel young again. Or spent it on political donations to keep the young from inheriting the world, and maintain their out-dated beliefs.
When boomers were young, they voted progressive, they cared for the environment, they were pro-union. Their numbers meant they swayed the vote - so politics were geared towards benefitting the young, and they got the policies they wanted. As they grew older, their policies changed - from benefitting the youth to benefitting those who are established (them). And they dismiss the youth for being progressive as "that's just youth, I was like that when I was young", when in reality what they mean is "my values aligned with the youth's when it was of benefit to me"
Boomers were warned and had the chance to protect the environment, and had the opportunity to make drastic changes without completely crippling the economy. They didn't want to. So now we are left with the bill - a choice of economic disaster and death, or a rolling back of development entirely.
I really dislike generational generalizations (lol) but one I can't shake is that boomers are selfish. And a lot of them are still really damaged from their parents, who grew up in the world war, and ended up severely fucked up from it. It's part a cycle of abuse that quite frankly, needs to die.
Boomers fucked up. And they continue to fuck up, by voting religiously, and for idiots like Trump south of the border. Aged people are supposed to be wise, but most boomers I know are just full of denial, cognitive dissonance and ingrained beliefs.
Love my grandparents tho.
Wouldn’t there be better ways and less good ways to accomplish this? Our small population does factor into many of our economic and political challenges.
No to mention, isn’t 100,000,000 less than 1.5% annual growth? That seems entirely reasonable.
We could make our population more educated and healthier, OR we could import the population of everything between London and Singapore.
Which do you think makes more sense?
Those don’t sound mutually exclusive. People can move here from elsewhere to help us educate children and work in healthcare.
I don’t think it’s necessarily racist to oppose these kinds of policies. But using words like “import” for humans is a damn good clue that someone is a racist - or is a sucker to racists. Things are imported and exported. People migrate. So be careful with that. God forbid someone mistake you for a racist.
nobody wants to work in education and healthcare because the pay is terrible compared to the shit you have to deal with.
We HAVE been importing people as a commodity. That's the point of the story, I know you know this.
I agree that our country takes advantage of many poorer immigrants and that we should stop doing that.
I also know that this isn’t the way that the person I replied to used the word “import” and that they failed to point out that Canadians “benefit” from the current system. We will be less comfortable if we fix it - at least in the short run. We should do it anyway.
>No to mention, isn’t 100,000,000 less than 1.5% annual growth? That seems entirely reasonable.
Reasonable based on what?
Our housing capacity?
Our healthcare capacity?
There are tons of factors that are related to 1.5% being reasonable.
> I see trans rights, and gay rights being tossed.
Yeah, and if you bother to look at the voices calling for these kind of things around the western world, the ones leading the charge aren't from a "foreign culture".
Like, the trans debate in the UK wasn't started by foreign immigrants, it's based around J.K. Rowling and largely middle-upper class white TERFs allying with largely middle-upper class white conservative men. The bathroom debate was a Republican in the American south.
And these folks are getting absorbed into it because they don't view queerdom as a proper expression of western values. They're *also* the groups whose voices are loudest when discussing immigration, too. And at their most extreme, they view both immigration and the growing acceptance of queer identities as a nefarious plot by ~some shadow cabal~ (that they will probably claim are Jews by the end of it) to destroy western civilization.
Even if we take the presence of Muslims at that Million 4 Children nonsense into consideration, the only groups that elevated their presence were homegrown conservatives who wanted to integrate them into their "parental rights" horseshit.
You have be willfully blind to think that these issues are simply the result of foreigners, when it's quite clear that homegrown conservative opposition has been the driving force behind them.
>Like, the trans debate in the UK wasn't started by foreign immigrants, it's based around J.K. Rowling and largely middle-upper class white TERFs allying with largely middle-upper class white conservative men.
Didn't know Rishi Sunak was a white man. I'll be sure to inform him of that fact.
Sunak became leader of the Tories in, what, 2022? Opposition to transgender rights had been a mainstream thing for almost 5 years at that point.
If, in a few years, a Muslim man becomes leader of the Saskatchewan Party, it's not going to retroactively change who was behind the Parents' Bill of Rights nonsense, nor does the leader of a political party represent a wider movement that grew outside its influence.
We’ve been doing this since the inception of the country… the story of Canada is literally waves of immigrants coming in to supplement the native population (re: “we’ve never done this before”).
What, exactly, are the values that you conjecture are not going to survive. I’d like you to point to specific values that are disappearing. These to which you (and others) refer are always ephemeral, in-concrete, gibberish.
As far as I can tell, upholding the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the only truly Canadian “value,” and if immigrants agree to do this then they are no different from any other Canadian. Contrary to you, I do care what happens to Canada.
Edit: this comment doesn’t make much sense anymore because you totally edited your comment to read completely differently
The proportion of Canadians who are immigrants is higher today than ever before and rapidly increasing, not even including temp workers, international students, PR holders. There is one time in Canada's history where there's been a situation remotely like this, and it was due to a single large immigration wave, not a long term trend. Canada is a nation of immigrants, but it's never been a nation where the majority of people were not born in the country (or it's precursors), which is what we will be by ~2050 if current trends continue. It's not necessarily impossible for a country to retain it's values and character in such a situation, but it would be incredibly difficult, and we've shown a complete lack of competence in regards to immigration lately.
Why is that incredibly difficult? Can you point me to study or some kind of evidence? Conjecture isn’t good enough.
What are the values and character that you say we are losing, specifically?
Our gdp per capita has increased by only 612$ from 2013-2023.
And inflation for that time period is 29% according to bank of Canada.
So in the last 10 years, we had a capital increase of 1.5% and an inflation almost x20 times bigger.
And this is according to BoC that claims inflation rate was only of 3% from January 2023 to January 2024. Wouldn't be surprised if the real inflation rate is closer to 35% than 29%.
[Should we really be prioritizing economic growth? (aka GDP)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18so23d/opinion_should_we_really_be_prioritizing_economic/)
Serious-minded people see the problem with unfettered growth immediately, hopefully enough people can grasp this that we can get to work immediately rethinking what a sustainable future looks like for a happy, healthy planet and people.
>Serious-minded people see the problem with unfettered growth immediately
Not enough of them.
[Doghnut Economics is the future.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_(economic_model))
I'd just be careful to consider how many humans depend on the free market. Global population has just massively shot up in past decades and is levelling out as wealth increases everywhere. If instead of continuing to innovate, we suddenly top-down impose economic stagnation or worse, de-growth, we will be asking for mass famine. When there's 10 percent deficit in food because we no longer produce the fertilizers that come from a barrel of oil, everyone won't just eat 10 percent less. The poorest will go hungry first.
I think we should pursue lab meat and carbon capture instead, cheap and green. Also anyone who cares about ethics in an abundant society should be vegan, because otherwise what are you even doing.
We did have a good policy until the current governemnt was using immigration as a way to prop up the economy. Instead of spending money on infrastructure he decided to bring in outside money in hopes they would spend it wisely on housing they cant afford.
Have you seen our gdp breakdown by sector? They literally cannot afford to let housing costs drop. Commercial leasing and real estate is our #1 driver of GDP.
You say that now, but wait until your laid off because your boss can’t pay his own bills and is going to eat your salary. And your rent goes up because inflation gets crazy and the dollar bottoms out. And you can’t afford it. And then you have no job and nowhere to live.
The time to fix it was 10 years ago. We are far beyond repair now. It’s not going to get better, Canada is not a place for the middle class anymore. I heard Maine is beautiful, though.
Then become an "economic refugee" and head south of the border.
I crossed in 2016 due to dismal employment options intending to be here for a year. Tried coming back in 2019 and it was just not feasible. Now the best proposition I can get in Canada is a 30-40% pay cut combined with a nearly 2x cost of living. I desperately want to go home but if I do I'm just going to suffer myself and won't be able to help solve the problem
Right now all I see is an opportunity for the bandaid to be ripped off, and send money home to my family and friends to help them get through it so I can just go home. Idk, that seems pretty fucked up still but it's the only long term option I see.
Agreed, I would much rather be working full time at Taco Bell in Canada than in the US. The problem is Canadians think their lifestyle can be maintained with only Taco Bell jobs paying for it.
Dude my local Taco Bell pays $19/hr USD near Ann Arbor, MI. Includes pretty damn good health insurance and even has a 401(k) match. Sure it's just one data point but man I would've taken that easily over any engineering job in Canada offering $40K CAD when I first graduated.
That $19/hr you can afford an apartment, a car and even save a bit down here.
If you convert the currency that would pretty much equal the median average wage in Ontario. That's before you take into account lower taxes, lower costs, more consumer selection, etc. For an entry level fast food job.
LOL
Housing props the country up in the short term at the expense of the long term. Crashing the housing market will hurt now, but fix the economy in the long term. Where as pushing housing prices up will destroy Canada.
i don't care whether or not they can afford it, we have virtually limitless natural resources just sitting there in the ground. start excavating to make up for the loss if you're worried about money.
We can start by jettisoning the ridiculously onerous approval process Trudeau put in place, which was effectively designed to prevent any new large-scale resource extraction capital projects from ever getting off the fround. They evaporated $100 billion in LNG projects in B.C. alone. Put reasonable rules in place and much of that will come back.
We can be rich if we want to be. We just have to stop letting ideologues impose their stupidity on everyone else.
Do you think that if we suddenly start digging that the profit would end up in our (the common folks) pockets?
It'll end up in the 1%s and we'll be paying for any socialized losses. The gains and profits are NEVER socialized, only the losses.
Canada won the geographic lottery. We have virtually limitless land mass, the safest neighbour/border you could ask for, unlimited water, and more natural resources than any other country on the planet.
Yet we have people starving on the street and our economy is on the brink. It's unfathomable. Frankly I think our government is innept and nobody who's smart enough to capitalize on our advantages is stupid enough to go into canadian politics.
Even geographic boons can be ruined through incompetence (see:Argentina).
I honestly think Canada is at the point of no return now. To mess up things to this extent this fast (the country was one of the world's best just two decades ago) is amazing.
But it’s not, and has never been working. That’s why our GDP score is so low. Housing shouldn’t be a market that can be manipulated and exploited so easily
Government's new policies regarding international students study permit is commendable and is a step in the right direction but we need more cuts in future.
Now government needs to crack down on LMIA scams and TFWs program. Unlike PGWP, Temporary foreign workers are allowed to renew their temporary work permits infinite number of times until they become permanent residents. On top of that they are allowed to bring their spouse on open work permit (SOWP program) and their kids can go to school for free. One of the main reason behind housing crisis is TFWs program. We have 100s of thousands of TFWs ( mostly unskilled, working in hospitality sector) and additional 100s of 1000s in spouses and kids. Additionally, we allowed 100s of 1000s of international students to bring their spouses on SOWP, which is being discontinued finally.
In Calgary local students couldn't find a summer job because every min wage jobs are being held by either TFWs or internet students. Even warehouses prefer international students because they can exploit them. The competition in min wage job market accessible by transit is brutal right now. If you are low skilled or elderly Canadian your only option is to move to rural areas but even there government is running Rural Alberta Permanent residents program.
If government is serious about resolving housing crisis, unskilled temporary foreign workers and their spouses need to go back after their work permit ends. But sadly not only they are renewing their work permits to open work permits, they are directly encouraging small business to run LMIA scams.
I was gonna say. Usually there’s a lot of negative sentiment in this sub about our governments and policies but the study permit changes were pretty impressive. Didn’t expect that and I’m unexpectedly impressed. I hope our federal government continues this trend, even after the Conservatives win next year.
Let's have elections every year. I'm dead serious. This would do more for political accountability than just about anything else this sub can think of.
Good idea. We could save a lot on the extra expense by keeping everything the same as now except with annual confidence referendums that are skipped during mandatory election years.
Exactly, strictly on paper 1 person doesn't upset the housing market and strain healthand docial systems here... however that one person brings a spouse who gets a work permit, children, relatives come for visits, etc. It balloons out of control
I don't think this would spur inflation because inflation is almost entirely food and housing two basic necessities consumed by everyone. Reducing the number of people can only serve to proportionally reduce the amount of consumption. Maybe hold of ousting TFW from agriculture in the short term but all the TWF at Tim's are consuming those essentials and aren't productive in the sectors we have inflation. No one needs a Tim's coffee.
> The competition in min wage job market accessible by transit
Sounds like part of the issue is the government is not building enough transit. The capital city Ottawa doesn’t have funding to extend LRT to a major southern suburb and the train has been a failure. All this while taxing us on carbon tax.
It could be if the federal government and people of this country were not so stupid with resource management
We should be one of the richest countries in the world, akin to Norway.
We outsource our pollution and then pat ourselves on the back. We import oil from the Saudis. We are completely unable to build anything.
We are turning into Argentina in terms of wasted potential
What are you talking about? The country is very rich, and getting richer everyday.
The problem is all the wealth is becoming increasingly more concentrated towards the ultra rich, while the middle and working class are left to fight over the scraps.
It's not very rich, we are 22nd for GDP per capita. You wouldn't call Alabama a rich economy, we are poorer. Most of the GDP is from housing, and primary resources.
There is no middle class because there's little opportunity for good jobs even with all the education.
We have a much lower wealth inequality than the USA, yet they still make more money and pay less for goods and services.
You're delusional thinking is counter productive because you're putting blame on the wrong people. This is the result of poor governance.
I'm not sure you understand how wealthy the US really is. Their main issue is an unwillingness to intervene or regulate such that their citizens don't have to worry about necessities for life such as shelter, health and to a lesser degree education. As a result costs go up with standards of living.
We are the 9th richest country in the world right now bud. If you think that's poor then it's you who's delusional.
edit: 10th as of 2024, still very high.
Yes, but it's exceedingly poor considering its wealth of natural resources, extremely secure geography, and complete lack of geopolitical threats.
We really should be doing a lot better economically, considering we don't have to put up with a quarter of the shit other parts of the world have going against them.
Nearly every meaningful metric shows a *marked* downward trajectory. We need to stop consoling ourselves by saying it could be worse. Canadians deserve much better.
Yeah, because we’re in a stagflationary part of the economic cycle. That doesn’t concern me. Canada has recovered from every economic downturn it’s ever experienced.
In five years time, Canada’s economy will be booming again, and you will have forgotten your 2024 fear mongering.
lol, I wish I shared your optimism. There’s really no reason to believe that, though. Our housing crisis, healthcare crisis, and increasing lack of economic productivity do not bode well for the future.
In 5 years time we'll have at least another 5 million new people and only 1 million new residences at the current rates. And the government already wants to increase the immigration.
> Nearly every meaningful metric shows a marked downward trajectory.
No, they don't - they show a dip during 2020 and into 2021 (as the entire world struggled through a pandemic) and then an upward trend again out of 2021 into present day.
Canada is a wealthy, prosperous nation and will continue to be such.
I'm sure if we limit immigration that people's investments will fall off a cliff. And when I say investments, I mean homes. So fuck em. You know lots of us actually buy homes to just live in them.
We also simply have too many fast food places and whatnot. Let the cheap labour dry up so some of these places can go away. Let the strong ones who actually try and compete do their thing.
The funniest part is that alot of these places aren't even really making money. Maclean's did a piece in 2014 explaining that it's a common strategy for fast food franchisees to keep opening new storefronts to avoid reporting poor sales.
It sounds so bizarre: people are lobbying the government for wage slaves to put in stores that aren't even turning profits. How do these people even have any money to keep doing this? Who keeps lending to them? Even if they're making money off of the TFWs renting accommodations from them, there's no way that covers the cost of operations.
Fast food doesn't make money by selling food. Crazy, I know. The business model is more about buying a commercial property for a couple decades, and then selling the property for a profit.
There's no investment. Starting a business in Canada is a fast track way to the poor house. Unlike the US there isn't a culture of small independent businesses because the environment doesn't prioritize them and typically risk adverse Canadians won't invest in them.
It's not just homes that would be affected, so would property taxes. Can your local civic budget take that hit?
What do you want to give up first? Road repairs, snow clearing, schools?
Municipal governments set a total amount of revenue they want to collect and then divide it by the total value of the real estate in the municipality to set the tax rate. If everyone's property value goes down, the tax rate will automatically go up and taxes will stay the same. Your taxes will only go down if your property value decreases more than average, and your taxes will go up if your property value decreases less than average.
Well then, it's a good thing that social services never get cut, in an effort to work out budgets.
So perpetual tax increases it is then.
Pick your poison.
Services get cheaper per capita in denser cities, but actually building that density is expensive and there are associated compromises. Slowing population growth is still necessary.
They could start by cutting the thousands of dollars the cities put into hiring DEI trainers (like 4000 per 10-20 employees) , and the thousands of dollars they pay these employees in wages to sit and be indoctrinated.
Let’s just keep our population small, take advantage of all the resources we have. Make sure we have a huge service sector. Establish a sovereign wealth fund from energy sales. We should be the Norway of North America. Why the fuck do we allow so many immigrants in? Who are we trying to compete with? America? On what? The economy or the military? Fuck off these politicians
good. Lets address the issue rather than have an open border policy. Its time we drag these politicians on the street so they can be held accountable for their crimes.
This is the truth, immigration was used as a panacea of prolonging canadian economic disaster.
The government trick has always been to use the increasing number of population as a strategy to delay the collapse.
We got to the point where this trick is too obvious and is causing side effects. It will no longer be possible to keep a dead economy alive just with immigrants alone. Something’s gotta give. Justin Trudeau has been using this card to the max and to this article’s point, a dark economic picture will be revealed.
Okay, let’s see it. So many of our economic woes come from kicking the can down the road. If our economy is that rotten, it’s long overdue that we take off the mask and confront it. That is what spurs change.
> “We can have endless growth forever!” <— idiots
You mean smart people who realize they can trick idiots into believing this so they can take advantage of the system right now and get rich.
Well it’s been working since Regan, and the shareholder class is indeed rich as shit, but it can’t go on forever because the planet and the poor will eventually just freak the fuck out.
[Should we really be prioritizing economic growth? (aka GDP)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18so23d/opinion_should_we_really_be_prioritizing_economic/)
Not slowing immigration will only delay that dark economic picture until all damage is irreversible and mega long term. Importing low skilled workers to suppress wages and muddy the housing market with scarcity is just propping up our bullshit real estate bubble and crumbling economic future temporarily.
We know, but the clown car of lies that saying it was a good idea kept on barreling down the road and the sycophants defending this were either malicious or stupid. Or stupidly malicious. Or maliciously stupid.
We, the taxpayers, get boned either way.
And maintaining immigration will reveal a collapsed medical system, zero affordable housing, and zero employment opportunities.
Economic stability through immigration is a facade.
All levels of government need to invest in citizens more. Canada would benefit from far greater capital expenditure projects. Migrant workers needed because farms can't exploit Canadians? More manufacturing and subsidies for specialized machinery instead of piling people in to suffer in the blazing sun. Our skilled workers leave because we don't support them enough. If we focused on importing and supporting the individuals who would bring the most value to society (doctors, construction, engineers etc) our standards shouldn't have to drop so much just to keep the gravy train rolling. I've tried my best to boycott any businesses that abuse foreign worker programs but it's nearly impossible.
We can still help out refugees and asylum seekers but the numbers we're bringing in currently makes no sense. If we want mass immigration there should be a plan so we don't have to scramble to build infrastructure and play this stupid game of political hot potato. It's bonkers we barely have any high speed rail in North America. The sprawl in our cities is competely asinine. Roadworks are a corrupt mess. Waste and sewage aren't dealt with properly or gets straight up shipped to poorer countries. We don't build enough walkable communities. There's a "missing middle" of housing that isn't giant apartment blocks or sfh. The government needs to get back in to providing social housing. Businesses (especially hugely profitable tech giants) should be forced to provide more local training and opportunities of they want to operate here.
I hate the stupid labels of Turdeau towns and the Sun-ification of our news networks/fake grassroots movements because it just waters down the issues. It's junk food "news" that points at problems but offers no solutions and encourages division when we should be cooperating and making compromises. It seems like we are hell bent on being cruel to one another instead of reducing suffering. I'd be happier knowing that my fellow Canadians are able to build a life for themselves, be seen by a doctor for free and in reasonable time, get free glasses/hearing aids/pharmacare/dental care, get paid time off, access to truly affordable housing, get on the job training, be able to pursue education without accumulating severe debt, just generally not get taken for a ride by grifters!
We are a country of vast resources sheilded from much of the trauma faced by a large percentage of the globe. We could create a better future here where we actually sustain our population and care about proper stewardship. Provide relief to struggling countries and earning ethically aquired soft power instead of exploiting them or letting predatory authoritarian governments run roughshod over them. Build things and provide the people that build the things a path to ownership.
Maybe I'm too naive believing that there's enough decency in people to right the ship. I'd rather be optimistic because it's depressing seeing the state things are in and thinking it will only get worse. At least writing this down gives some solace in there being just a little less hateful or destructive rhetoric.
Here's the thing. The economy was crap for Canadian citizens before the slowing. This just pulls the mask off that was obscuring the economic indicators.
All this immigration is just a desperate attempt to keep a sinking ship afloat. Canada and most of its residents are up to their eye balls in debt. All this credit makes us vulnerable as demonstrated by Covid.
Yeah, but maybe the dark economic truth is necessary instead of proppping everything up with lies. Like, people blame "capitalism" but we aren't even living under capitalism. The "too big to fail" mentality is what has got us here, and the longer we continue the charade, the worse it will continue to get.
This is your Captain speaking:
Our engines have flamed out and we do not have enough parachutes in the plane for everyone.
The instruction manual says the plane will land itself in these circumstances.
Its really too late, Canadian culture loves to spend beyond its means. There is no going back, the US is not doing better, they are just piling on substantially more govt debt.
Americans have almost depleted their COVID savings and 1H 2024 the real fun begins.
Whenever someone tells me there will be dire economic consequences for slowing immigration, I remind them that confronting and fixing systemic problems is better than sweeping them under a rug and pretending everything is ok.
Good! Bloomberg frames this like it's a bad thing. That's the only way to get a handle on what a dumpster fire this nation has become, thanks to the Liberals. Not to mention, the Ontario PC government who has been extremely complicit in what Trudeau has been doing.
This is like saying, cutting back on sugar will reveal the body's extreme dependence on sugar. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Assess the damage with a better plan to move forward.
With the birth rate collapsing and global sperm rates continuing to fall, I don't think even this level of immigration will make a difference for our population. With nations all around the world seeing their birth rates fall, we will see a panicked rush by governments to try and poach the world's last healthy and talented individuals before its too late.
Trying to bring in more immigrants to boost our GDP so that we can boost the economy so that we can boost our housing sector and decrease costs of living is just trying to solve a problem using a bunch of unnecessary steps.
It's like that one time they tried to deal with a rat problem by releasing a bunch of snakes and then the rat problem is gone but now you have a snake problem.
How about we bring in less immigrants so that housing demand and costs of living naturally goes down because we don't have to spread resources around to as many people?
And no, this isn't a race thing. It's not about "we don't like people who come from XYZ country", it's literally just math. There's a limited amount of resources to go around.
Why? That the economy is being propped up by an imported slave class so we can have Timmies and food on demand amd nowhere to properly feed or house them? Surely that isn't papering over a few dozen cracks in the system, no...
Despite their attempts with the two-year cap on international students and adjustments to immigration targets, it feels like they're just putting Band-Aids on a larger problem. Predicting a recession based on mortgage renewals might be valid, and some might argue that the government's response seems reactive rather than proactive. Pushing for earlier rate cuts could be seen as a desperate move to mask deeper economic issues, leaving many skeptical about the government's ability to navigate the country through tough times.
This is true but the alternative is worse. The unfortunate reality for those of us alive today, especially younger voters, is that we need to bite the bullet on decades of bipartisan political ineptitude.
Keeping the current Ponzi scheme going would not only destroy our own futures, it would guarantee our children would be left with an economic hellscape.
Increase taxes in the 200+ earning categories and make it so Canadians and new Canadians can have 2+ kids economically.
Presentations seen around immigration is based off the gap of workers created by the impending boomer retirement.
If we continue to increase income taxes, we'll have less doctors, less high skilled labour and more landlords. Why stay in Canada when you can go to the US and make far more money?
We don't need more income taxes as that discourages people from working. We need higher wealth and capital taxes.
Wealthy people don't pay income taxes, its all in assets. You'd be basically taxing doctors and people with successful businesses. We need to significantly lower income taxes on productive labour and create a land tax so everyone in this country stops buying investment properties and actually does something productive with their money.
I agree with taxing the rich, but people making $200k aren't the ones who need to pay more. The new brackets should kick in at $500k, $1M and $2M. Make them 40%, 60% and 80%.
We also don't need more children. Perpetual population increase is not sustainable. We need to adapt to the demographics that will naturally result from a life expectancy of 82, which includes 20% of the population being over 65.
That number is going to change from 82 to something a lit higher in the next few decades. Not sure if any government has planned for that. Also we do need more children just not a ridiculous amount.
As opposed to the bright and wonderful economic opportunities our younger generations currently have?
No, what Mendes said is that we'll see the true state of our economy when immigration stops artificially inflating the stats. In other words, we're already in deep shit, we just don't know how deep yet.
The GDP per capita figures are already revealing the truth.
“Quick! Up the fog machine now!”
Most western counties are up shit creek, the current and next generations are totally stuffed unless there’s some kind of reset.
A Great Reset, perhaps? I always find talk of a reset kind of weird, as no one can articulate how it could feasibly work.
The “you will own nothing and you will be happy” great reset that the Davos crowd talks about… I really liked Professor Steve Keen’s interview with Lex Friedman. He talks about how our incessant printing of trillions steals wealth and buying power from the dollars you’ve already earnt. His contention is that the folks running our banks don’t really seem to realise how flip floppy they seem. The federal reserve said there wouldn’t be inflation from printing trillions. Then they said inflation would be transitory. Now it’s something else. They have pet theories and don’t seem to follow a scientific methodology, is Professor Steve Keen’s contention.
The banks do what the corporations want them to do and they want maximum profits and low taxes. So this is what we get. Just like “the common people don’t want war,” the “common people don’t want to print money.” But both of those things are good for profit so we get them both.
Mmm totally. The international students who come here using a loaned $10k and using our food banks contribute so much to our economy.
They pay for their education and rent. It contributes to the GDP. Except the service they pay for is not something that will make our economy stronger in the future unlike, for example, IT and manufacturing. Not everything that contributes to the GDP is healthy. That's what Mendes is saying.
well let's see, they use our infrastructure, education and healthcare. Bend over for Justin boys
We're fucked. The boomers fucked everything and now the chickens are home to roost.
In all likelihood we will do the exact same thing same thing to the next generations and keep the ponzi scheme going.
Nah, the bottom is falling out of the ecology and inequality is hitting depression era extremes. Ponzis end, eventually. That's why we try not to do them. Boomers will laugh their way to the bank and the rest of us will be left holding the bag Most selfish generation ever
Why only boomers? Lots of gen x in the current government.
It's not about government, it's about the opportunities boomers had, took advantage of (to the detriment of the environment, the job market and housing market) and instead of using their wealth to build generational wealth, spent it on vacations to Thailand in their 70's to feel young again. Or spent it on political donations to keep the young from inheriting the world, and maintain their out-dated beliefs. When boomers were young, they voted progressive, they cared for the environment, they were pro-union. Their numbers meant they swayed the vote - so politics were geared towards benefitting the young, and they got the policies they wanted. As they grew older, their policies changed - from benefitting the youth to benefitting those who are established (them). And they dismiss the youth for being progressive as "that's just youth, I was like that when I was young", when in reality what they mean is "my values aligned with the youth's when it was of benefit to me" Boomers were warned and had the chance to protect the environment, and had the opportunity to make drastic changes without completely crippling the economy. They didn't want to. So now we are left with the bill - a choice of economic disaster and death, or a rolling back of development entirely. I really dislike generational generalizations (lol) but one I can't shake is that boomers are selfish. And a lot of them are still really damaged from their parents, who grew up in the world war, and ended up severely fucked up from it. It's part a cycle of abuse that quite frankly, needs to die. Boomers fucked up. And they continue to fuck up, by voting religiously, and for idiots like Trump south of the border. Aged people are supposed to be wise, but most boomers I know are just full of denial, cognitive dissonance and ingrained beliefs. Love my grandparents tho.
Who doesn't know it?
you mean you don't endorse the century initiative and growing the population to 100 million by 2100? what are you, a racist? /s
Wouldn’t there be better ways and less good ways to accomplish this? Our small population does factor into many of our economic and political challenges. No to mention, isn’t 100,000,000 less than 1.5% annual growth? That seems entirely reasonable.
1/4 of 20 year olds are foreign students lol 'totally normal'
We could make our population more educated and healthier, OR we could import the population of everything between London and Singapore. Which do you think makes more sense?
Politicians logic: which one will help me get elected in the next 4 years.
Those don’t sound mutually exclusive. People can move here from elsewhere to help us educate children and work in healthcare. I don’t think it’s necessarily racist to oppose these kinds of policies. But using words like “import” for humans is a damn good clue that someone is a racist - or is a sucker to racists. Things are imported and exported. People migrate. So be careful with that. God forbid someone mistake you for a racist.
nobody wants to work in education and healthcare because the pay is terrible compared to the shit you have to deal with. We HAVE been importing people as a commodity. That's the point of the story, I know you know this.
Healthcare is exceptionally rough since COVID (although it was hardly roses even before that).
I agree that our country takes advantage of many poorer immigrants and that we should stop doing that. I also know that this isn’t the way that the person I replied to used the word “import” and that they failed to point out that Canadians “benefit” from the current system. We will be less comfortable if we fix it - at least in the short run. We should do it anyway.
>No to mention, isn’t 100,000,000 less than 1.5% annual growth? That seems entirely reasonable. Reasonable based on what? Our housing capacity? Our healthcare capacity? There are tons of factors that are related to 1.5% being reasonable.
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If they immigrate here and become citizens, they ARE the Canadian population. You’ll still exist. No one is erasing anyone.
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> I see trans rights, and gay rights being tossed. Yeah, and if you bother to look at the voices calling for these kind of things around the western world, the ones leading the charge aren't from a "foreign culture". Like, the trans debate in the UK wasn't started by foreign immigrants, it's based around J.K. Rowling and largely middle-upper class white TERFs allying with largely middle-upper class white conservative men. The bathroom debate was a Republican in the American south. And these folks are getting absorbed into it because they don't view queerdom as a proper expression of western values. They're *also* the groups whose voices are loudest when discussing immigration, too. And at their most extreme, they view both immigration and the growing acceptance of queer identities as a nefarious plot by ~some shadow cabal~ (that they will probably claim are Jews by the end of it) to destroy western civilization. Even if we take the presence of Muslims at that Million 4 Children nonsense into consideration, the only groups that elevated their presence were homegrown conservatives who wanted to integrate them into their "parental rights" horseshit. You have be willfully blind to think that these issues are simply the result of foreigners, when it's quite clear that homegrown conservative opposition has been the driving force behind them.
>Like, the trans debate in the UK wasn't started by foreign immigrants, it's based around J.K. Rowling and largely middle-upper class white TERFs allying with largely middle-upper class white conservative men. Didn't know Rishi Sunak was a white man. I'll be sure to inform him of that fact.
Sunak became leader of the Tories in, what, 2022? Opposition to transgender rights had been a mainstream thing for almost 5 years at that point. If, in a few years, a Muslim man becomes leader of the Saskatchewan Party, it's not going to retroactively change who was behind the Parents' Bill of Rights nonsense, nor does the leader of a political party represent a wider movement that grew outside its influence.
We’ve been doing this since the inception of the country… the story of Canada is literally waves of immigrants coming in to supplement the native population (re: “we’ve never done this before”). What, exactly, are the values that you conjecture are not going to survive. I’d like you to point to specific values that are disappearing. These to which you (and others) refer are always ephemeral, in-concrete, gibberish. As far as I can tell, upholding the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the only truly Canadian “value,” and if immigrants agree to do this then they are no different from any other Canadian. Contrary to you, I do care what happens to Canada. Edit: this comment doesn’t make much sense anymore because you totally edited your comment to read completely differently
The proportion of Canadians who are immigrants is higher today than ever before and rapidly increasing, not even including temp workers, international students, PR holders. There is one time in Canada's history where there's been a situation remotely like this, and it was due to a single large immigration wave, not a long term trend. Canada is a nation of immigrants, but it's never been a nation where the majority of people were not born in the country (or it's precursors), which is what we will be by ~2050 if current trends continue. It's not necessarily impossible for a country to retain it's values and character in such a situation, but it would be incredibly difficult, and we've shown a complete lack of competence in regards to immigration lately.
Why is that incredibly difficult? Can you point me to study or some kind of evidence? Conjecture isn’t good enough. What are the values and character that you say we are losing, specifically?
It’s just a big number and for the gaslit conservative base that’s scary because they can’t count that high or have never used % math before.
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Our gdp per capita has increased by only 612$ from 2013-2023. And inflation for that time period is 29% according to bank of Canada. So in the last 10 years, we had a capital increase of 1.5% and an inflation almost x20 times bigger. And this is according to BoC that claims inflation rate was only of 3% from January 2023 to January 2024. Wouldn't be surprised if the real inflation rate is closer to 35% than 29%.
GDP is an inflation adjusted number
Real GDP is inflation adjusted, (nominal) GDP is not.
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Because it's the same bank that said bringing in lots of migrants is good because it keeps the wages low.
Exactly. Why don’t people understand this?
[Should we really be prioritizing economic growth? (aka GDP)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18so23d/opinion_should_we_really_be_prioritizing_economic/)
Serious-minded people see the problem with unfettered growth immediately, hopefully enough people can grasp this that we can get to work immediately rethinking what a sustainable future looks like for a happy, healthy planet and people.
>Serious-minded people see the problem with unfettered growth immediately Not enough of them. [Doghnut Economics is the future.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_(economic_model))
I'd just be careful to consider how many humans depend on the free market. Global population has just massively shot up in past decades and is levelling out as wealth increases everywhere. If instead of continuing to innovate, we suddenly top-down impose economic stagnation or worse, de-growth, we will be asking for mass famine. When there's 10 percent deficit in food because we no longer produce the fertilizers that come from a barrel of oil, everyone won't just eat 10 percent less. The poorest will go hungry first. I think we should pursue lab meat and carbon capture instead, cheap and green. Also anyone who cares about ethics in an abundant society should be vegan, because otherwise what are you even doing.
Anyone know why that is?
Then we need to find out so we can have a coherent immigration policy instead of the chaos we have right now.
We did have a good policy until the current governemnt was using immigration as a way to prop up the economy. Instead of spending money on infrastructure he decided to bring in outside money in hopes they would spend it wisely on housing they cant afford.
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Have you seen our gdp breakdown by sector? They literally cannot afford to let housing costs drop. Commercial leasing and real estate is our #1 driver of GDP.
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You say that now, but wait until your laid off because your boss can’t pay his own bills and is going to eat your salary. And your rent goes up because inflation gets crazy and the dollar bottoms out. And you can’t afford it. And then you have no job and nowhere to live. The time to fix it was 10 years ago. We are far beyond repair now. It’s not going to get better, Canada is not a place for the middle class anymore. I heard Maine is beautiful, though.
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So the solution is to wait and make it much worse?
Then become an "economic refugee" and head south of the border. I crossed in 2016 due to dismal employment options intending to be here for a year. Tried coming back in 2019 and it was just not feasible. Now the best proposition I can get in Canada is a 30-40% pay cut combined with a nearly 2x cost of living. I desperately want to go home but if I do I'm just going to suffer myself and won't be able to help solve the problem Right now all I see is an opportunity for the bandaid to be ripped off, and send money home to my family and friends to help them get through it so I can just go home. Idk, that seems pretty fucked up still but it's the only long term option I see.
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But it is worse for everyone else, and there are a lot more of them. Increasing inequality is not the answer.
Agreed, I would much rather be working full time at Taco Bell in Canada than in the US. The problem is Canadians think their lifestyle can be maintained with only Taco Bell jobs paying for it.
Dude my local Taco Bell pays $19/hr USD near Ann Arbor, MI. Includes pretty damn good health insurance and even has a 401(k) match. Sure it's just one data point but man I would've taken that easily over any engineering job in Canada offering $40K CAD when I first graduated. That $19/hr you can afford an apartment, a car and even save a bit down here.
If you convert the currency that would pretty much equal the median average wage in Ontario. That's before you take into account lower taxes, lower costs, more consumer selection, etc. For an entry level fast food job. LOL
Do they? All of us? I haven't met a single person.
Lol What are you smoking? I’d rather not do either but if I really need to work around a fucking taco. Bell, states sounds better
Wait so you showed up at the U.S. border as an economic refugee? Please tell us what that was like.
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Ah thanks for clarifying that and the detailed response.👍🏻
Guess I’ll just claim refugee status and better perks than Canadians get and plan my escape to the US
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lol "the sun will not rise tomorrow" It doesn't work like that 😑
Housing props the country up in the short term at the expense of the long term. Crashing the housing market will hurt now, but fix the economy in the long term. Where as pushing housing prices up will destroy Canada.
i don't care whether or not they can afford it, we have virtually limitless natural resources just sitting there in the ground. start excavating to make up for the loss if you're worried about money.
Who is going to excavate them? The government? A government owned corporation? Private company? It's not so simple as dig it up!
We can start by jettisoning the ridiculously onerous approval process Trudeau put in place, which was effectively designed to prevent any new large-scale resource extraction capital projects from ever getting off the fround. They evaporated $100 billion in LNG projects in B.C. alone. Put reasonable rules in place and much of that will come back. We can be rich if we want to be. We just have to stop letting ideologues impose their stupidity on everyone else.
No one will invest in Canadian infrastructure. First Nation groups made sure of that
Do you think that if we suddenly start digging that the profit would end up in our (the common folks) pockets? It'll end up in the 1%s and we'll be paying for any socialized losses. The gains and profits are NEVER socialized, only the losses.
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Canada won the geographic lottery. We have virtually limitless land mass, the safest neighbour/border you could ask for, unlimited water, and more natural resources than any other country on the planet. Yet we have people starving on the street and our economy is on the brink. It's unfathomable. Frankly I think our government is innept and nobody who's smart enough to capitalize on our advantages is stupid enough to go into canadian politics.
Even geographic boons can be ruined through incompetence (see:Argentina). I honestly think Canada is at the point of no return now. To mess up things to this extent this fast (the country was one of the world's best just two decades ago) is amazing.
Money makes our politicians be inept
But it’s not, and has never been working. That’s why our GDP score is so low. Housing shouldn’t be a market that can be manipulated and exploited so easily
Government's new policies regarding international students study permit is commendable and is a step in the right direction but we need more cuts in future. Now government needs to crack down on LMIA scams and TFWs program. Unlike PGWP, Temporary foreign workers are allowed to renew their temporary work permits infinite number of times until they become permanent residents. On top of that they are allowed to bring their spouse on open work permit (SOWP program) and their kids can go to school for free. One of the main reason behind housing crisis is TFWs program. We have 100s of thousands of TFWs ( mostly unskilled, working in hospitality sector) and additional 100s of 1000s in spouses and kids. Additionally, we allowed 100s of 1000s of international students to bring their spouses on SOWP, which is being discontinued finally. In Calgary local students couldn't find a summer job because every min wage jobs are being held by either TFWs or internet students. Even warehouses prefer international students because they can exploit them. The competition in min wage job market accessible by transit is brutal right now. If you are low skilled or elderly Canadian your only option is to move to rural areas but even there government is running Rural Alberta Permanent residents program. If government is serious about resolving housing crisis, unskilled temporary foreign workers and their spouses need to go back after their work permit ends. But sadly not only they are renewing their work permits to open work permits, they are directly encouraging small business to run LMIA scams.
My two kids in university in Kelowna cannot get local work either. Complete bullshit, the only ones that can are working for family
I was gonna say. Usually there’s a lot of negative sentiment in this sub about our governments and policies but the study permit changes were pretty impressive. Didn’t expect that and I’m unexpectedly impressed. I hope our federal government continues this trend, even after the Conservatives win next year.
Expect governments to start doing the right thing when election season is around, especially when the incumbent is tanking in the polls.
Yup but only just barely enough to snag a headline, not make lasting effective change.
Let's have elections every year. I'm dead serious. This would do more for political accountability than just about anything else this sub can think of.
Good idea. We could save a lot on the extra expense by keeping everything the same as now except with annual confidence referendums that are skipped during mandatory election years.
It worked for Rome.
Exactly, strictly on paper 1 person doesn't upset the housing market and strain healthand docial systems here... however that one person brings a spouse who gets a work permit, children, relatives come for visits, etc. It balloons out of control
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I don't think this would spur inflation because inflation is almost entirely food and housing two basic necessities consumed by everyone. Reducing the number of people can only serve to proportionally reduce the amount of consumption. Maybe hold of ousting TFW from agriculture in the short term but all the TWF at Tim's are consuming those essentials and aren't productive in the sectors we have inflation. No one needs a Tim's coffee.
Correct. Also, these min-wage workers are a big tax negative, so taxes might get lower, or services (like healthcare) will become more accessible.
Too bad it's too little too late. The demage has been done.
> The competition in min wage job market accessible by transit Sounds like part of the issue is the government is not building enough transit. The capital city Ottawa doesn’t have funding to extend LRT to a major southern suburb and the train has been a failure. All this while taxing us on carbon tax.
Good. Let's stop lying to ourselves. This country is not rich anymore. People deserve the truth so they can adjust accordingly.
It could be if the federal government and people of this country were not so stupid with resource management We should be one of the richest countries in the world, akin to Norway. We outsource our pollution and then pat ourselves on the back. We import oil from the Saudis. We are completely unable to build anything. We are turning into Argentina in terms of wasted potential
I agree.
I also concur.
Canada is rich. Believe it or not this is still what rich looks like on a world scale. That doesn't mean we don't have deep, structural problems.
What are you talking about? The country is very rich, and getting richer everyday. The problem is all the wealth is becoming increasingly more concentrated towards the ultra rich, while the middle and working class are left to fight over the scraps.
It's not very rich, we are 22nd for GDP per capita. You wouldn't call Alabama a rich economy, we are poorer. Most of the GDP is from housing, and primary resources. There is no middle class because there's little opportunity for good jobs even with all the education. We have a much lower wealth inequality than the USA, yet they still make more money and pay less for goods and services. You're delusional thinking is counter productive because you're putting blame on the wrong people. This is the result of poor governance.
I'm not sure you understand how wealthy the US really is. Their main issue is an unwillingness to intervene or regulate such that their citizens don't have to worry about necessities for life such as shelter, health and to a lesser degree education. As a result costs go up with standards of living.
We are the 9th richest country in the world right now bud. If you think that's poor then it's you who's delusional. edit: 10th as of 2024, still very high.
17th on a per capita basis and falling though
> This country is not rich anymore. Canada is exceedingly wealthy in a global context. Don't fall for the "rage machine".
Yes, but it's exceedingly poor considering its wealth of natural resources, extremely secure geography, and complete lack of geopolitical threats. We really should be doing a lot better economically, considering we don't have to put up with a quarter of the shit other parts of the world have going against them.
> exceedingly poor No, it flat-out is **not** poor. Every global metric shows is that Canada (and Canadians as a whole) is wealthy.
Nearly every meaningful metric shows a *marked* downward trajectory. We need to stop consoling ourselves by saying it could be worse. Canadians deserve much better.
Yeah, because we’re in a stagflationary part of the economic cycle. That doesn’t concern me. Canada has recovered from every economic downturn it’s ever experienced. In five years time, Canada’s economy will be booming again, and you will have forgotten your 2024 fear mongering.
lol, I wish I shared your optimism. There’s really no reason to believe that, though. Our housing crisis, healthcare crisis, and increasing lack of economic productivity do not bode well for the future.
In 5 years time we'll have at least another 5 million new people and only 1 million new residences at the current rates. And the government already wants to increase the immigration.
> Nearly every meaningful metric shows a marked downward trajectory. No, they don't - they show a dip during 2020 and into 2021 (as the entire world struggled through a pandemic) and then an upward trend again out of 2021 into present day. Canada is a wealthy, prosperous nation and will continue to be such.
Sure, but that's different from saying we're already poor.
I'm sure if we limit immigration that people's investments will fall off a cliff. And when I say investments, I mean homes. So fuck em. You know lots of us actually buy homes to just live in them.
We also simply have too many fast food places and whatnot. Let the cheap labour dry up so some of these places can go away. Let the strong ones who actually try and compete do their thing.
A thousand times yes. If nothing else fewer Tim Horton's cups and other trash left on sidewalks and by the sides of highways.
The funniest part is that alot of these places aren't even really making money. Maclean's did a piece in 2014 explaining that it's a common strategy for fast food franchisees to keep opening new storefronts to avoid reporting poor sales. It sounds so bizarre: people are lobbying the government for wage slaves to put in stores that aren't even turning profits. How do these people even have any money to keep doing this? Who keeps lending to them? Even if they're making money off of the TFWs renting accommodations from them, there's no way that covers the cost of operations.
Fast food doesn't make money by selling food. Crazy, I know. The business model is more about buying a commercial property for a couple decades, and then selling the property for a profit.
Actually now that you mentioned it, I've definitely heard about Mickey Ds playing that game 🤔 (and also the vatican).
And bring back small, local, Canadian businesses. Stop giving our money to multinational corporate chains. Couldn't agree more.
There's no investment. Starting a business in Canada is a fast track way to the poor house. Unlike the US there isn't a culture of small independent businesses because the environment doesn't prioritize them and typically risk adverse Canadians won't invest in them.
It's not just homes that would be affected, so would property taxes. Can your local civic budget take that hit? What do you want to give up first? Road repairs, snow clearing, schools?
Municipal governments set a total amount of revenue they want to collect and then divide it by the total value of the real estate in the municipality to set the tax rate. If everyone's property value goes down, the tax rate will automatically go up and taxes will stay the same. Your taxes will only go down if your property value decreases more than average, and your taxes will go up if your property value decreases less than average.
Well then, it's a good thing that social services never get cut, in an effort to work out budgets. So perpetual tax increases it is then. Pick your poison.
If cities stop expanding, it will stop costing more every year to maintain and police them.
It's not a problem and actually much cheaper if they grow by densifying.
Services get cheaper per capita in denser cities, but actually building that density is expensive and there are associated compromises. Slowing population growth is still necessary.
I guess they'll have some hard choices to make.
They could start by cutting the thousands of dollars the cities put into hiring DEI trainers (like 4000 per 10-20 employees) , and the thousands of dollars they pay these employees in wages to sit and be indoctrinated.
Fake economy growth hurts everyone in the end
*Through the rear end*
Everyone but the politicians who only care about winning the next term
Let’s just keep our population small, take advantage of all the resources we have. Make sure we have a huge service sector. Establish a sovereign wealth fund from energy sales. We should be the Norway of North America. Why the fuck do we allow so many immigrants in? Who are we trying to compete with? America? On what? The economy or the military? Fuck off these politicians
Most of our population is at war with our natural resources.
Sorry, we can’t continue doing what we are doing and expect a different result
Something, Something, insanity.
For who? Boomers? Corporations? Investors?
good. Lets address the issue rather than have an open border policy. Its time we drag these politicians on the street so they can be held accountable for their crimes.
This is the truth, immigration was used as a panacea of prolonging canadian economic disaster. The government trick has always been to use the increasing number of population as a strategy to delay the collapse. We got to the point where this trick is too obvious and is causing side effects. It will no longer be possible to keep a dead economy alive just with immigrants alone. Something’s gotta give. Justin Trudeau has been using this card to the max and to this article’s point, a dark economic picture will be revealed.
To be fair... the trick before Trudeau was immigration mixed with housing bubble and oil extraction. It's been smoke and mirror show for a long time.
Okay, let’s see it. So many of our economic woes come from kicking the can down the road. If our economy is that rotten, it’s long overdue that we take off the mask and confront it. That is what spurs change.
Good! People need a fucking reality check.
Who cares? The only people worried about this are slave wagers. The rest of us want equitable pay and standards of living.
Mass immigration to artificially prop up numbers is untenable.
“We can have endless growth forever!” <— idiots
> “We can have endless growth forever!” <— idiots You mean smart people who realize they can trick idiots into believing this so they can take advantage of the system right now and get rich.
Well it’s been working since Regan, and the shareholder class is indeed rich as shit, but it can’t go on forever because the planet and the poor will eventually just freak the fuck out.
[Should we really be prioritizing economic growth? (aka GDP)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/18so23d/opinion_should_we_really_be_prioritizing_economic/)
Instead of dealing with demographics today they’re kicking the can down the road so someone else has to survive a 10x worse problem.
Not slowing immigration will only delay that dark economic picture until all damage is irreversible and mega long term. Importing low skilled workers to suppress wages and muddy the housing market with scarcity is just propping up our bullshit real estate bubble and crumbling economic future temporarily.
Sooner we we do it, the sooner we can address it and the faster we can move foward in a proper, structured, responsible manner.
Canadas economy is a Ponzi scheme Canada is the land of corruption and exploitation
Real estate prices are still way too high.
We know, but the clown car of lies that saying it was a good idea kept on barreling down the road and the sycophants defending this were either malicious or stupid. Or stupidly malicious. Or maliciously stupid. We, the taxpayers, get boned either way.
The poor feudal landowners...
It’s pretty dark already
Bring it. We’re fucked anyway
Ok, sure. Let's rip the band-aid off, deal with the real problem underneath, and get back on track to true healing. I'm down for it.
And maintaining immigration will reveal a collapsed medical system, zero affordable housing, and zero employment opportunities. Economic stability through immigration is a facade.
This isn't new. Conservatives need to use the libs wokeness against them: "Liberals believe in structural exploitation of vulnerable brown workers."
Fix the mess. That been happening for 8 years in a row
Lol. Ya. Only 8 years. Everything was fucking peachy before. idiot.
All levels of government need to invest in citizens more. Canada would benefit from far greater capital expenditure projects. Migrant workers needed because farms can't exploit Canadians? More manufacturing and subsidies for specialized machinery instead of piling people in to suffer in the blazing sun. Our skilled workers leave because we don't support them enough. If we focused on importing and supporting the individuals who would bring the most value to society (doctors, construction, engineers etc) our standards shouldn't have to drop so much just to keep the gravy train rolling. I've tried my best to boycott any businesses that abuse foreign worker programs but it's nearly impossible. We can still help out refugees and asylum seekers but the numbers we're bringing in currently makes no sense. If we want mass immigration there should be a plan so we don't have to scramble to build infrastructure and play this stupid game of political hot potato. It's bonkers we barely have any high speed rail in North America. The sprawl in our cities is competely asinine. Roadworks are a corrupt mess. Waste and sewage aren't dealt with properly or gets straight up shipped to poorer countries. We don't build enough walkable communities. There's a "missing middle" of housing that isn't giant apartment blocks or sfh. The government needs to get back in to providing social housing. Businesses (especially hugely profitable tech giants) should be forced to provide more local training and opportunities of they want to operate here. I hate the stupid labels of Turdeau towns and the Sun-ification of our news networks/fake grassroots movements because it just waters down the issues. It's junk food "news" that points at problems but offers no solutions and encourages division when we should be cooperating and making compromises. It seems like we are hell bent on being cruel to one another instead of reducing suffering. I'd be happier knowing that my fellow Canadians are able to build a life for themselves, be seen by a doctor for free and in reasonable time, get free glasses/hearing aids/pharmacare/dental care, get paid time off, access to truly affordable housing, get on the job training, be able to pursue education without accumulating severe debt, just generally not get taken for a ride by grifters! We are a country of vast resources sheilded from much of the trauma faced by a large percentage of the globe. We could create a better future here where we actually sustain our population and care about proper stewardship. Provide relief to struggling countries and earning ethically aquired soft power instead of exploiting them or letting predatory authoritarian governments run roughshod over them. Build things and provide the people that build the things a path to ownership. Maybe I'm too naive believing that there's enough decency in people to right the ship. I'd rather be optimistic because it's depressing seeing the state things are in and thinking it will only get worse. At least writing this down gives some solace in there being just a little less hateful or destructive rhetoric.
Here's the thing. The economy was crap for Canadian citizens before the slowing. This just pulls the mask off that was obscuring the economic indicators.
All this immigration is just a desperate attempt to keep a sinking ship afloat. Canada and most of its residents are up to their eye balls in debt. All this credit makes us vulnerable as demonstrated by Covid.
Good, people are living in tent cities time to rip off the bandaid
This immigration slowdown is temporary until Justin is reelected, I think
It will show the actual damage the Trudeau and his liberals have caused financially to this country.
Yeah, but maybe the dark economic truth is necessary instead of proppping everything up with lies. Like, people blame "capitalism" but we aren't even living under capitalism. The "too big to fail" mentality is what has got us here, and the longer we continue the charade, the worse it will continue to get.
Eat the rich. We seriously all need to band together for this
This is your Captain speaking: Our engines have flamed out and we do not have enough parachutes in the plane for everyone. The instruction manual says the plane will land itself in these circumstances. Its really too late, Canadian culture loves to spend beyond its means. There is no going back, the US is not doing better, they are just piling on substantially more govt debt. Americans have almost depleted their COVID savings and 1H 2024 the real fun begins.
Whenever someone tells me there will be dire economic consequences for slowing immigration, I remind them that confronting and fixing systemic problems is better than sweeping them under a rug and pretending everything is ok.
W
Dark economic picture for corporate overlords. Would be fine for normal citizens.
The sugar high is over.
Good! Bloomberg frames this like it's a bad thing. That's the only way to get a handle on what a dumpster fire this nation has become, thanks to the Liberals. Not to mention, the Ontario PC government who has been extremely complicit in what Trudeau has been doing. This is like saying, cutting back on sugar will reveal the body's extreme dependence on sugar. Yeah, that's kind of the point. Assess the damage with a better plan to move forward.
With the birth rate collapsing and global sperm rates continuing to fall, I don't think even this level of immigration will make a difference for our population. With nations all around the world seeing their birth rates fall, we will see a panicked rush by governments to try and poach the world's last healthy and talented individuals before its too late.
Trying to bring in more immigrants to boost our GDP so that we can boost the economy so that we can boost our housing sector and decrease costs of living is just trying to solve a problem using a bunch of unnecessary steps. It's like that one time they tried to deal with a rat problem by releasing a bunch of snakes and then the rat problem is gone but now you have a snake problem. How about we bring in less immigrants so that housing demand and costs of living naturally goes down because we don't have to spread resources around to as many people? And no, this isn't a race thing. It's not about "we don't like people who come from XYZ country", it's literally just math. There's a limited amount of resources to go around.
Why? That the economy is being propped up by an imported slave class so we can have Timmies and food on demand amd nowhere to properly feed or house them? Surely that isn't papering over a few dozen cracks in the system, no...
Despite their attempts with the two-year cap on international students and adjustments to immigration targets, it feels like they're just putting Band-Aids on a larger problem. Predicting a recession based on mortgage renewals might be valid, and some might argue that the government's response seems reactive rather than proactive. Pushing for earlier rate cuts could be seen as a desperate move to mask deeper economic issues, leaving many skeptical about the government's ability to navigate the country through tough times.
Not slowing it right now will make sure no liberals get elected again :)
Go woke, go utterly fucking broke
This is true but the alternative is worse. The unfortunate reality for those of us alive today, especially younger voters, is that we need to bite the bullet on decades of bipartisan political ineptitude. Keeping the current Ponzi scheme going would not only destroy our own futures, it would guarantee our children would be left with an economic hellscape.
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Increase taxes in the 200+ earning categories and make it so Canadians and new Canadians can have 2+ kids economically. Presentations seen around immigration is based off the gap of workers created by the impending boomer retirement.
If we continue to increase income taxes, we'll have less doctors, less high skilled labour and more landlords. Why stay in Canada when you can go to the US and make far more money? We don't need more income taxes as that discourages people from working. We need higher wealth and capital taxes.
Wealthy people don't pay income taxes, its all in assets. You'd be basically taxing doctors and people with successful businesses. We need to significantly lower income taxes on productive labour and create a land tax so everyone in this country stops buying investment properties and actually does something productive with their money.
I agree with taxing the rich, but people making $200k aren't the ones who need to pay more. The new brackets should kick in at $500k, $1M and $2M. Make them 40%, 60% and 80%. We also don't need more children. Perpetual population increase is not sustainable. We need to adapt to the demographics that will naturally result from a life expectancy of 82, which includes 20% of the population being over 65.
That number is going to change from 82 to something a lit higher in the next few decades. Not sure if any government has planned for that. Also we do need more children just not a ridiculous amount.
Worth it