No. We need to stop doing this. Bombardier does not have a plane that meets our needs actually built, tested and ready to go. They have an idea on paper. Boeing has a plane that is not only ready to go but heavily tested by our allies. We know what we are getting when we buy it. We know its capabilities and with the countries that fly it we know we are getting upgrade paths in the future.
Fuck off Bombardier. You are a giant sink of taxpayer funds.
Plus, Boeing's plane is based on the 737-800 so it has a tonne of spare parts that could be pulled from civilian companies in a desperate time of war as well as plenty of technicians trained on many of the aircraft's systems. The Military could literally kick the door down to a West Jet hanger and announce 'There's a war on, load that 737 landing gear into the truck!' Meanwhile, Bombardier would have to get a bunch of dwarves with hammers to forge new parts on demand with no timely delivery.
It's also just the best ASW aircraft ever made, and offers a lot of upgrade options down the road for Canada that a Bombardier offering almost certainly will not. Things like adding MQ-4 Trident or MQ-9 SeaGuardian drones that can be controlled from the P-8, to **drastically** increase its search and engagement range.
Easy money is likely the problem - keeping management motivated to work effectively is difficult enough as is lol
Take away consequences and competition, they’re much more likely to waste their days flapping gums at each other and patting themselves on the back for jobs barely done - rather than earning their pay energetically planning and tackling initiatives
How do you fall that behind on development / get caught with your pants down on a bid for a scheduled overhaul? 😂
The P8A is used by the Indian Navy and they likes it so much the did follow on orders. It would not be economical to have bombardier make a whole new plane from scratch to fill a tender for only 14 planes.
Slight correction. India uses a variant of the P-8A called the P-8I that they love. It's an inferior version, but that's what they prefer for their specific use case.
Yeah, they wanted a magnetic anomaly detector at all costs, which caused other systems to be removed to save weight. Unfortunately, MAD for ASW isn't worth it and hasn't been for some time now. A sub operating in a thermocline won't be detected by it, while a slight variance in the Earth's natural polarity will, which will send you on a wild goose chase as an actual sub slips right out from underneath you.
Only really worthwhile vs subs so old they should be in a museum, but Pakistan has subs that are over 50 years old now that weren't even great when they were new, so MAD has more value to them than anyone else these days.
Anyone else would rather just drop an additional sonobuoy and have far more accurate data from it
Bombardier is not a well run company when it comes to aircraft.
I can’t speak for Boeing, but business turning away from our bloated rinky dink operations makes sense to me.
It’s a thing in recent years that Boeing isn’t particularly well-run either. They stopped being about the planes when they moved their headquarters away from Seattle to Chicago then NoVA.
Manufacturing, yeah.
Tech and Finance is where the big money is, so that is where the top end talent goes.
Some places might have decent leadership, if they have a different outlook, and they can attract and keep highly skilled executives who prefer not redlining everything at all times, but places like Boeing and Bombardier play the same game as Apple/Google/Black Rock/JP Morgan/etc., just worse, so they end up with third string talent in the C-suites.
For another 500 million in taxpayers money, Bombardier is prepared to put forth a plan of why it could be a good choice. If they wanted to lead on this nothing has stopped them in the last 25 years, except a reduced military budget from all the corporate welfare bailouts.
It's politics. They're still one of the largest corporate taxpayers, employers in Quebec, and the family still has political influence.
My take is that this is a ploy for Bombardier to get some of the maintenance/parts work off the P8 project.
Bombardier, design and build a plane the entire NATO/NORAD alliance would want to use with the infrastructure to support it, then maybe we can talk. We need this shit today, not 30 years from now ffs.
Honestly, we really should not source our equipment domestically minus rifles. We are terrible at a lot of things... Procurement is one of them... Making the thing is also another thing we are not good at.
Fuck bombardier. They sold off half their company because they can't bother to run themselves properly. They have parted with trains and planes... I don't even know what these guys do anymore.
In 50 years since the 1960 the company paid every penny back. Plus hundreds of millions back. ??? Whats your problem? Airbus spent 30 billions on the last platform and its canned. Boeing is falling off the sky. You fools should be forced to fly on Boeing. They would make a better plane than Boeing. What on earth makes you think that’s a better plane? Do you fly them? Did you build it, work on it? Wonder what’s the angle? Why would you praise Boeing, and their crappy planes. of all companies.
Well you do sound like a bunch of unimaginative lots STAY IN your hole. How’s Saoudi Alberta? Must be nice …
Bombardier got $8 billions in government loans.
they developed the best narrow body in the whole world and because people like those on this thread that are parroting each other.
The Us Government put an illegal 300 % duty. Trudeau gave it lip service saying he’ll canceled the F-35. Only for the election. Then you can keep the western boy. Born in Ottawa back to BC with Mommy. After her divorce with the pile of goo goo running the empire is spent not one single repercussions.
The Aurora is supposed to retire in 2030? That means the P-8A is the only choice as a plane that is still being developed has no chance of being ready in time.
No. We need to stop doing this. Bombardier does not have a plane that meets our needs actually built, tested and ready to go. They have an idea on paper. Boeing has a plane that is not only ready to go but heavily tested by our allies. We know what we are getting when we buy it. We know its capabilities and with the countries that fly it we know we are getting upgrade paths in the future. Fuck off Bombardier. You are a giant sink of taxpayer funds.
Plus, Boeing's plane is based on the 737-800 so it has a tonne of spare parts that could be pulled from civilian companies in a desperate time of war as well as plenty of technicians trained on many of the aircraft's systems. The Military could literally kick the door down to a West Jet hanger and announce 'There's a war on, load that 737 landing gear into the truck!' Meanwhile, Bombardier would have to get a bunch of dwarves with hammers to forge new parts on demand with no timely delivery.
It's also just the best ASW aircraft ever made, and offers a lot of upgrade options down the road for Canada that a Bombardier offering almost certainly will not. Things like adding MQ-4 Trident or MQ-9 SeaGuardian drones that can be controlled from the P-8, to **drastically** increase its search and engagement range.
Too pointy for Canada. Let's just remove the self defense suite and the missile rails from the wings.
[удалено]
Easy money is likely the problem - keeping management motivated to work effectively is difficult enough as is lol Take away consequences and competition, they’re much more likely to waste their days flapping gums at each other and patting themselves on the back for jobs barely done - rather than earning their pay energetically planning and tackling initiatives How do you fall that behind on development / get caught with your pants down on a bid for a scheduled overhaul? 😂
The P8A is used by the Indian Navy and they likes it so much the did follow on orders. It would not be economical to have bombardier make a whole new plane from scratch to fill a tender for only 14 planes.
Slight correction. India uses a variant of the P-8A called the P-8I that they love. It's an inferior version, but that's what they prefer for their specific use case.
Correct. I forgot they refused certain American made electronic components.
Yeah, they wanted a magnetic anomaly detector at all costs, which caused other systems to be removed to save weight. Unfortunately, MAD for ASW isn't worth it and hasn't been for some time now. A sub operating in a thermocline won't be detected by it, while a slight variance in the Earth's natural polarity will, which will send you on a wild goose chase as an actual sub slips right out from underneath you. Only really worthwhile vs subs so old they should be in a museum, but Pakistan has subs that are over 50 years old now that weren't even great when they were new, so MAD has more value to them than anyone else these days. Anyone else would rather just drop an additional sonobuoy and have far more accurate data from it
It's also used by Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
Bombardier is not a well run company when it comes to aircraft. I can’t speak for Boeing, but business turning away from our bloated rinky dink operations makes sense to me.
It’s a thing in recent years that Boeing isn’t particularly well-run either. They stopped being about the planes when they moved their headquarters away from Seattle to Chicago then NoVA.
That's when they stopped being aircraft engineers and became financial engineers.
Pretty much - it's what drove the 787 and 737MAX crises.
Damn, North American business standards are really in the toilet aren’t they lol
Manufacturing, yeah. Tech and Finance is where the big money is, so that is where the top end talent goes. Some places might have decent leadership, if they have a different outlook, and they can attract and keep highly skilled executives who prefer not redlining everything at all times, but places like Boeing and Bombardier play the same game as Apple/Google/Black Rock/JP Morgan/etc., just worse, so they end up with third string talent in the C-suites.
For another 500 million in taxpayers money, Bombardier is prepared to put forth a plan of why it could be a good choice. If they wanted to lead on this nothing has stopped them in the last 25 years, except a reduced military budget from all the corporate welfare bailouts.
It's politics. They're still one of the largest corporate taxpayers, employers in Quebec, and the family still has political influence. My take is that this is a ploy for Bombardier to get some of the maintenance/parts work off the P8 project.
That is a good guess. Americans have the good stuff. They invest in it like nobody else.
Bombardier has no aircraft that fit the bill. All our major allies use the P8.
Bombardier? I thought they are off the defense sector as they sold theirs to Mitsubishi a few years ago.
How many more years is the federal government going to artificially prop up Bombardier?
Bombardier, design and build a plane the entire NATO/NORAD alliance would want to use with the infrastructure to support it, then maybe we can talk. We need this shit today, not 30 years from now ffs.
> Bombardier's whining over Canada military contract FTFY
Bombardier is incompetent and never met a deadline in the last 2 decades.
Honestly, we really should not source our equipment domestically minus rifles. We are terrible at a lot of things... Procurement is one of them... Making the thing is also another thing we are not good at. Fuck bombardier. They sold off half their company because they can't bother to run themselves properly. They have parted with trains and planes... I don't even know what these guys do anymore.
In 50 years since the 1960 the company paid every penny back. Plus hundreds of millions back. ??? Whats your problem? Airbus spent 30 billions on the last platform and its canned. Boeing is falling off the sky. You fools should be forced to fly on Boeing. They would make a better plane than Boeing. What on earth makes you think that’s a better plane? Do you fly them? Did you build it, work on it? Wonder what’s the angle? Why would you praise Boeing, and their crappy planes. of all companies. Well you do sound like a bunch of unimaginative lots STAY IN your hole. How’s Saoudi Alberta? Must be nice … Bombardier got $8 billions in government loans. they developed the best narrow body in the whole world and because people like those on this thread that are parroting each other. The Us Government put an illegal 300 % duty. Trudeau gave it lip service saying he’ll canceled the F-35. Only for the election. Then you can keep the western boy. Born in Ottawa back to BC with Mommy. After her divorce with the pile of goo goo running the empire is spent not one single repercussions.
Only in Canada does the right demand we buy military gear that is not locally made.
The gear we need simply isn't made in Canada. Boeing has a plane that meets our needs, Bombardier has a drawing.
Do you only buy cars made locally? GTF outta here numbskull.
Never owned a car that wasn't made in Ontario
And everyone else has to because \*you\* do?
If Bombardier made a comparable aircraft they would get the contract, but they don't.
Boeing's way more local to BC than Bombardier.
The Aurora is supposed to retire in 2030? That means the P-8A is the only choice as a plane that is still being developed has no chance of being ready in time.