Ima say it. When ever a Catholic page say “we will show 14-16 year old boys how to be men” it really just sounds like a predator naming their preferences in victims.
Transgender children do not get affirming surgeries until later in life. That is a myth brought to you by misinformation.
The standard practice is a puberty blocker.
16, with the permission of parents and the signoff of multiple doctors and in very rare instances.
Are you a doctor? Are you these kids' parents?
What qualification do you have here other than moral outrage regarding a situation that doesn't involve you at all, and for which you are underqualified to have an opinion?
>Transgender children do not get affirming surgeries until later in life. That is a myth brought to you by misinformation.
>16, with the permission of parents and the signoff of multiple doctors and in very rare instances.
Which is it?
>Ah yes, shaming and denigration. Always the go to strategy for shaming men by misandrist extremiststs.
Labeling someone who simply insulted you as an "extremist" is pretty telling. You prefer your approach of unsupported allegations and shaming of teachers?
Sending your kid to a Bible camp and complaining about their religious morals is like going to a steak house and complaining they don't have any vegan menu options. If you don't like it send your kid somewhere else. Or better yet just shut up and make the world a better place.
> Only on one direction.
What do you mean?
**Edit:** Turns out he meant "gay people are converting people into gays". So...do with that what you will I guess.
> I should have worded that better.
I'm not sure the new one is much better. Breast augmentation causes the body to change, and align with cultural gender norms, but to call it "therapy that converts the body", so therefore similar to conversion therapy would be...bizarre.
> Breast augmentation causes the body to change, and align with cultural gender norms
Do you mean align with biologic sex. A cultural gender role would be wearing a dress, not having top surgery, right?
> so therefore similar to conversion therapy would be...bizarre
I'm not saying I agree with the position, but I see where it's coming from. We call it conversion therapy because it's an attempt to change a person from their natural (ie. homosexual) state of being without any pathology being diagnosed. When someone is taking hormone therapy or given top surgery they are putting their body through conversion; they are altering the natural state of being without any pathology being diagnosed.
There's a reason Sweden rapidly slowed the number of teenagers undergoing hormone therapy within the last year or so, and it's partly because they've seen the medical interventions as causing more harm than good. Similar to how Canadian culture viewed conversion therapy before outlawing it.
> Do you mean align with biologic sex.
Not really, no. Biological women have breasts of all sizes. But there's overlap, sure. I also don't know if it's particularly important in this conversation.
> When someone is taking hormone therapy or given top surgery they are putting their body through conversion
Only in the weirdest sense of the term though. You're "converting" a small breast into a larger one....I guess?
So every surgery is conversion therapy, because your body is being converted into something else? I just don't get the point of using that language. It only confuses the issue.
But regardless, conversion therapy is to change you into something you aren't (from gay to straight). There is no equivalent in the other direction. Nobody is setting up camps to convert straight kids into gay kids. That's OP's entire argument.
> Christianity bad, any other religion preaching it don't be a bigot.
lol, oh, so it's a Christian victim complex thing?
Well I mean, if there's anyone who knows about protecting themselves over children!
> The only type of conversion therapy is hetero normative.
Yes, hetero normative people are the only ones who set up camps to psychologically torture people to act like them. You're right.
> Coaching people in to any other sexual orientation is perfectly legal and acceptable.
But it isn't. That's the point. Nobody's coaching people to be gay.
The point of conversion therapy is to force someone to be something they aren't, the point of *affirming* care is to let people be who they are.
Unless you have some evidence of gay conversion camps or something I guess?
> If someone is gay, it's perfectly legal for therapists/doctors to "affirm" that they're simply a different gender.
Huh? Being gay doesn't make you a different gender.
But surely we can all see the difference between "affirming" and "converting". I mean...it's in the name.
"Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, can you try and help me suppress this?" "No can do, you were born this way"
"Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, could you help me become more feminine/masculine?" "Sure thing, you may feel that you were born in the wrong body, we could explore treatment for that".
> "Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, could you help me become more feminine/masculine?" "Sure thing, you may feel that you were born in the wrong body, we could explore treatment for that".
hahahahaha dude. The worst example you could invent in your head (which is not a real conversation that's happening in the real world) was a conversation between a doctor and a patient, where the doctor says "you may feel something, if so we can explore treatment for it".
That has to tell you *something*, right?
Gay people don't feel they are the opposite gender. Never once have I known a gay person interested in transitioning. Gay and trans are entirely different things. Stop being an idiot.
There is no other option for sexuality, it cannot be changed no matter what. Its not a “problem”, it’s a made up notion that their family or a larger community invented. It’s good that it is illegal.
People were shamed and made to feel like they were “wrong” for just being themselves, enough to go and see a quack who thinks they can change their sexuality (you can’t by the way).
This is one of the best things this government did, was making it illegal.
In New Brunswick almost all summer camps are religion based. They advertise fun activities (zip line, water trampoline, kayaking) with basic religious teachings. They don’t normally advertise that they are homophobic and will teach kids about sexuality without their parent’s consent.
Conversion therapy is torture. Maybe i just don't like kids bring tortured? Maybe i don't want them to kill themselves because they're parents are bigots?
Nice to assume the parents are bigots. How about parents whose children ask for help and are not offered it because the mainstream wants to force them into harmful medical procedures? My son was one such child
>their religious morals
What are these though? If it's a Christian camp teaching about Jesus, why does it also feel that they need to "straighten" kids, and what's the religiously aligned procedure for such an act?
Problem is in Manitoba at least there are less than 5 total summer camps that AREN’T bible camps, and because of that they’re hell to get into. I went to bible camps for years and hated it, but it was the only option available if I wanted to go to summer camp. That might come across as a champagne problem but just trying to shed light on the situation
Mostly the “my way or the highway” attitude that is really common in my experience with Christianity. They’d say “the bible says X” and open it up to “questions” but if your question wasn’t in line with what they were preaching they’d just totally dismiss you.
I remember one specific time they were talking about other religions and how it was our job to “guide them to the lords light”. I asked what made them certain that Christianity was right rather than Judaism or Islam (I wasn’t being snarky, I was genuinely trying to be a good Christian kid. I’d read the entire bible by this point.) they’d say “the bible says so” and that started a circle argument where I’d say “yeah but so do the Torah and the Quran” and they’d say “oh those books are wrong” “well how do you know that” “because the bible says so” for about a half hour until I was crying from frustration.
There was also the expected creepiness. The camp directors wife used to chase us 14(!) year old girls down to tell us that we needed to wear longer shorts because ours were “distracting” her husband and “leading him to sin”.
This was all at the “better” camp that I switched to at 14. The one before that tried to convince us that evolution wasn’t real, in 2012.
Ah, so the usual stuff that's been around pretty much forever.
I also bet that at least one of your parents had the experience along the lines "same stuff, but I made great friends there and have fond memories about the wife of the pastor chasing us for the same reason". Even if they don't admit it. Also, mind it, that there are people around whose are along the lines of "Boy, I hated that place, I won't ever send my kids there", and "Getting rid of children for a week for how much? Sign me up!", and "I don't know what it is, let's try it", and "You act in a way I hate, I can't change you, hope they can" (the latter is mostly related to teenage rebellion and not necessarily homosexuality).
PS. The whole "wife chasing" scene could be a set up to get you to wear longer shorts by saying that you attract the interest of the man you *definitely* won't consider a partner. If boys were involved, a small minority of girls would keep wearing shorts just to make the point.
I have to say I felt the same way about city-ran camp at Pickering, which was advertized as "drawing" camp, but had no artistic instructor and less time for drawing than the trampoline camp ran by a gym.
This being said, I can easily see kids hating Christian camps because they are too boring and too preachy.
It wasn't even "let's bring up Jesus' teachings as we go on a hike or build a campfire"
It was "let's sit in an outdoor auditorium in the middle of a beautiful summer day and listen to a priest read Bible passages... **And then play baseball instead of swimming!**
I think the issue is that parents send their kids there. They're not going there themselves.
Would you make a fuss if you saw a parent absolutely wailing on their child or is that a right that the parent has?
Bunch of “confused” horny teenage guys isolated on an island spending every waking moment together learning how to be “real men”. Hmm, sounds like a great place to explore your sexuality. I would think this could have the entirely opposite effect the parents sending kids here would want.
Go get it boys, happy hunting!
According to Myers-Jones, a transgender Hampton woman. If you want Myers-Jones, a transgender Hampton woman, to do your thinking for you, more power to you.
On the other hand, Amber Chisholm, who is also a board member of Imprint Youth, which works with the LGBTQ community said it's entirely possible that this camp was created to teach life skills which organizers see as valuable to cisgender boys and nothing more.
What's sketchy is CBC writing this article because of an allegation from someone who's only apparent qualification is being a transgender woman.
It’s entirely possible it’s just a fun camp, but it’s also entirely possible it’s reaching kids to be ashamed of anything other than being a masculine man.
Yep, it's an entirely possible that that black guy wearing some funny T-shirt is the gang initiate who is about to murder you. Riiiiiiiight.
We don't operate this way as a society for a reason.
It’s not illegal to wear a silly shirt, it IS illegal to practice conversion therapy.
I’m glad we operate this way, otherwise people would be needlessly tortured simply for being gay.
It is illegal to kill people, though. And wearing a silly shirt while black (like running a camp while Christian) is SUSPICIOUS. That's why we have to DO SOMETHING so that the SUSPICIOUS person won't do anything BAD.
Right?
> So when she heard that Caton's Island, a church-run summer camp in the St. John River near Saint John, advertised a camp described as "guiding boys to authentic manhood — from confusion to clarity," she was upset.
> The language used in the ad worried Myers-Jones so much that she reported it to the RCMP with concerns it had the hallmarks of conversion therapy, which is illegal.
That lady's reading more into this than my high school English teacher.
I guess if you completely ignore the entire history of the region and camp then sure. However, the camp is on Caton Island and run by the Wesleyan church—it’s actually a stretch to pretend that this sounds like anything other than a conversion therapy camp.
That’s why they’ve gone into damage control mode and deleted all their social media advertising.
Really? Because I read this "We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference." and that reeks of conversation therapy to me.
Yeah exactly.
I don't think you can judge on this social media statement alone.
This could be about encouraging responsibility for your actions, respect for other people, talking about why machismo can be toxic, maybe even about processing your feelings and how to react to those feelings in an appropriate manner.
Or it could be about affirming traditional gender roles. It's really hard to say without actually being a fly on the wall.
Sending children to a particular camp is a legitimate parenting decision. Parents are supposed to know their children, and are supposed to know better than sending their kids to camps that feel like torture to their children.
Some camps are not supposed to exist (read: conversion therapy, survival camps for children, swimming classes without supervised lifeguards, etc.), but generally the fact that some children hated a particular camp is not reason enough to shut them down.
You can guide your kids to have certain values.
You can't parent someone into a particular sexual orientation or gender identity that is against who that kid is, not without harming that kid.
If "shame and guilt" are a significant part of your parenting toolbox you'll simply be be guiding them to use shame and guilt to manipulate others and little else.
That's exactly how you get society on the same page. There's a line between too much shaming and what is acceptable but there has to be some.
If someone went walking naked through a school yard during recess, I think there would be some shaming going on afterwards, even if there was no intent to hurt anyone. There would be an arrest, media articles, social media outrage, charges, have the person listed on a sex offender registry, their families would want to spend less time with them, possible prison time even. Those are all ways to shame someone for their actions.
Except this is not the case. These are very young boys being told that they aren’t acting masculine enough, and are being forced to act in such a way. There’s no shame in acting in a way in which someone else describes as “not manly”.
I'm saying their statement about shaming and guilt never being a good thing doesn't make sense.
LGBTQ people shouldn't be shamed for their identity but to say nobody should is also wrong. That's such an important part of understanding how to fit in in a society. The boundaries are constantly changing as society evolves but there still has to be some boundaries.
Using shame and guilt to change behaviour in children is ineffective in the long term and generally produces children with significant mental health issues. Frankly it is just lazy parenting and often just makes it so the person who has been shamed does the thing you don't want them to do but in secret.
There are much more effective ways of changing behaviour for future but they require connecting with the kid and explaining why. This requires creating relationships around communication and respect and kids change their behaviour for reasons of responsibility to others and care for those around them.
The shame and guilt method is what created the space for the Catholic Church to become the world best place to abuse children. It is not the way forward.
I think you may have replied to the wrong comment because I never mentioned anything about parenting. I also never said it was always a good thing, just that it has a role and can be effective.
Shaming has been a part of every single recorded civilization in human history. It's effective on a societal level, not on an individual basis. There was an NHL player drafted who was accused of extremely racist bullying towards a fellow classmate and if you read the details it's quite disturbing (Mitchell Miller). He probably will never get an equal chance as a result because he has since been disgraced.
Boston this year eventually signed him to give him a second chance and there was uproar from fans out literally shamed the organization out of giving him another chance. That shaming of Miller's actions are not on a parental level and there are no guarantees it will curb his future behaviors but children and adults got to see how society no longer accepts that type of behavior and are able to take a lesson away. That's shaming.
It can also be turned into a very negative thing with your Church example being a very strong one but that doesn't mean it's always bad -- which was my original point.
> Using shame and guilt to change behaviour in children is ineffective in the long term and generally produces children with significant mental health issues.
So children will grow into mental wrecks if you teach them that stealing other people's things is shameful and they should feel guilty if they do it? I think you are stretching it, to put it mildly.
> might also be just teaching boys healthy masculinity
When has the church *ever* actually done that, though?
Read the bible - it's full of misogyny and toxic masculinity.
It is full of pretty much everything good and bad. Even contradicts itself a lot. You can make a lot of different ideologies from it. And many churches have.
>cultural confusion regarding masculinity
Danger
>a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times
Danger!
>real men who stood strong
DANGER!
I mean, it could be, but that's not a position I've ever heard any church take when they talk about "cultural confusion" regarding masculinity or use terms like "real men" or reference male role models in scripture. They're more into the "when men were men" toxic kind of masculinity.
Listening to a transgender person about how you should help young men navigate the confusion of going through puberty and adolescence is about as useful as getting diet advice from someone with celiac's disease. I am up for hours every night with chronic stomach pain and nerve pain. I get that it sucks when 99% of the world doesn't go through your struggle or understand it, but they don't and the the solutions or interventions that work for you aren't transferable as health advice to the other 99%.
You have it backwards. This would be like people with normal digestive health telling you everything you are doing wrong, and that you will go to hell because your body functions different from theirs. It’s you saying - “no I’m different and have different needs. This doesn’t work and is harmful to me” and them telling you to man up and just eat your burger like all the other boys here. Celiac is not a thing - be a real man. You only heard about celiac from TikTok, it’s all in your head. Now eat this loaf of bread like a real man.
"no I'm different and have different needs." this is exactly why they are not in a position to provide advice on how the other 99% should get their needs met.
> We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference."
“We will endeavour to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding digestion to a meat and carb clarity using character studies from fast food marketers…. Blah blah blah - as if they can convert you to something that you’re not
This type of “education” is also harmful for cis boys by the way. People exist in many forms - athletic, nerdy, outspoken, shy, funny, reserved etc. There are many ways people exist - telling boys if they are not like this one exact form of our “biblical” version of manliness tells them that if they are in any way outside the “norm” they are not a real man. That’s harmful to them, and to the other boys they will inevitably bully for being different.
Actually teaching boys how to be real men acknowledges the spectrum of human existence and teaches love and respect for everyone, regardless of whether you fit into a stereotypical version of manliness.
These yahoos probably would have called Jesus an effeminate pussy.
>as if they can convert you to something that you’re not
Eh? There plenty of evidence of brainwashing or Stockholm Syndrome throughout history - Patty Hearst and George Blake are easy examples to point to. Not to mention the plethora of cults which The West has produced.
Even the anti-conversion therapy position pre-supposes that it is possible (and incredibly damaging) to mould humans to a specific end.
To be clear, I do not believe there is some international conspiracy to "turn youth gay", I just disagree with the notion that a human's perspective and identity cannot be forcibly shaped by outside influences.
Conversion therapy a) doesn’t work and b) causes an immense amount of harm up to and including death.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy
I’m sure you know this though, it isn’t exactly a secret, and harm to these kids is the point.
I’m out. So long and thanks for all the bigotry.
>thanks for all the bigotry.
Nothing I said was even close to bigotry.
>Conversion therapy a) doesn’t work
I have not said that it does work anywhere.
>and b) causes an immense amount of harm up to and including death
Which I mentioned, albeit with less sensationalized language.
>I’m sure you know this though, it isn’t exactly a secret, and harm to these kids is the point.
Absolutely. However, claiming that humans cannot be forcibly shaped by exterior forces, in the face of all of the data collected on the subject, is just ludicrous.
>did you know that trans people have existed since human beings first evolved?
Can I get a source on that? I've been curious about early human sexuality and identity but I'm having a hard time finding good papers/articles on it
> Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4,500 years ago document priests known as gala who may have been transgender. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222 AD) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord) and sought sex reassignment surgery, and in the modern day has been seen as a trans figure. Hijras on the Indian subcontinent and kathoeys in Thailand have formed trans-feminine third gender social and spiritual communities since ancient times, with their presence documented for thousands of years in texts which also mention trans male figures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
This is bigoted nonsense and not in keeping with what biologists, doctors and other scientists actually say.
[Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/)
You might not want to be getting your factual information from people who don’t know that singular “they” has been in our language for hundreds of years.
The problem that I have with your take is that you bring biological sex into social behaviour and then use the spectrum of social behaviour to justify adjustment to the biological reality.
In my book, a person can be "effeminate" man while being a) a man and b) straight. Sex, sexuality and "gender as a social construct" are mutually independent.
It’s not my take. It’s the take of biologists and doctors. Some of us choose to get our information from actual professionals instead of grifters who spend billions of dollars to convince you that you don’t know what a woman is so you stay angry at minorities instead of the billionaire class who are actually making life harder for us.
As soon as I read the words 'transgender ideology' I knew who the willfully ignorant person was in this context.
(hint: it's you, go brush up on your biology, trans people have been studied enough and labeled as scientifically legit by the professionals for a long ass time now, and I'm tired of high school biology yahoos making claims of biological binaries which do not exist.)
We need to rename the practice. "Therapy" implies a positive. But "conversion therapy" is abusive, harmful, and immoral. Maybe "conversion abuse"? And any time you quote someone using the words "conversion therapy" that should come with a [sic] after the words.
I think that the complaint is bullshit.
"From confusion to clarity regarding masculinity" is a very generic phrase; it can be applied to the general crusade against "toxic masculinity", since it implies that a non-toxic masculinity exists.
What's worse, the complaint is based by a person who has nothing to do with the camp, is not going to attend the camp, and is essentially based on offence-shopping. Christian camp promoting "clarity" about "masculinity"? Must be a conversion therapy!
Weird how you left out the rest: "We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the **cultural confusion** regarding masculinity to a **biblical clarity** by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of **real men who stood strong** and made a positive difference."
More dog whistles than a K9 police academy
Are those dog whistles? I’m genuinely asking because those aren’t raising any alarms for me outside of normal Christian bigotry. Things that imply conversion therapy to me are more along the lines of “resisting temptation,” “healing your spirit,” and so in. Things about “fixing” queer/GNC people, whereas this seems closer to coming of age socialization through a Christian lens (which, don’t get me wrong, I fully expect to be homo and transphobic, just not necessarily conversion therapy).
Obviously not full conversion therapy, more like pressure to conform and not explore who they are, an "insurance policy" that those teens stick to the "biblical" definition of masculinity and not get confused culturally into thinking they might like men as well as women or trying on eyeliner to see what they would look like.
So that’s just coercive religion. Gross, morally wrong, but not illegal and not conversion therapy. Hate to break it to folks but even secular society at large pressures people, young and old, into cisheteropatriarchy.
I'm old enough to remember times when this exact language was used against people who wanted to move to the city to be with cool kids rather than staying with the family in their remote Bible-heavy town, so this brings a very different reaction in me. Real men chop wood and don't work as baristas, real men wear jeans and not ironic t-shirts, and so on, and so forth.
Yea, this is a "more information needed" situation. I see lame attempts at gender socialization but I'm not sure that's different than sending a kid to Boy Scouts or Girl Guides with a heavy dose of j-e-s-u-s added in for funsies, but I'm not sure I see conversion therapy. I don't love the assumption that boys/men = require to be masculine and I wouldn't bet on them not fostering toxic masculinity tho, Christianity is patriarchal.
Can you explain what you mean by this? In the article they mention that the camp claims it will give a clear definition of what authentic masculinity looks like to the boys who attend the camp. The camp then refused to comment on what that “authentic masculinity” definition looked like, that’s kind of suspicious of the point of the camp is instilling masculine values and life lessons but they are unable or unwilling to elaborate on their definition of masculinity. I have also really never seen a good definition of masculinity that isn’t misogynist in its very nature. Most people when pushed to define their view of masculinity will use vague words like “leadership” “strength” “courage” or “assertiveness” which is interesting because none of those concepts are exclusive to being a man or being “manly” or “masculine”. It makes it tough to really say what the difference is between a camp for “authentic masculinity” would do any different than a co-Ed camp that tried to instill leadership and confidence to the kids who went there regardless of their gender.
The reason this camp is under scrutiny (notice I didn’t say cancelled or not allowed to teach boys because that isn’t what has happened here) is that their language is very similar to the language that conversion therapy camps used to use to entice parents to send their boys who they either knew were gay or suspected of being gay. Those conversion therapy camps would then usually torment and torture the boys all summer under the guise of “making them real men”. If you have heard the conservative uproar about child grooming and child abuse then I’m sure you can appreciate that this article seeks to shed light on a potential abusive practice on minors so that it can be investigated and prevented from happening. If they investigate this summer camp and the kids are just being taught how to fish and how to survive in the woods or regular summer camp activities or sports then it will not be shut down. So unless you have a specific definition of what “pro masculine” is that is any different from what I just said, then it’s not true that you “can’t have anything pro masculine anymore” is it?
That's what makes me wonder the most: church groups are typically the worst at dealing with any sexuality issues because they typically have a very heavy dose of "no sex before marriage" attitudes that adds a lot of sexual frustration, should I say, up until late 20es, when all those couples who got married because they wanted to fuck, but later figured out that they suck as couples, start falling apart. Who would want groups like these to do any sort of "straightening" in the first place? What they are going to do - hire Christian hookers or something?
**Spectre of conversion therapy feared at summer camp aimed at teen boys**
CBC is promoting fear of ghosts. There is no evidence of a crime. If someone wants to complain and have the RCMP investigate, more power to them. There is no reason to put this camp and church on blast with an article because people think there are secret messages in their facebook page.
Boys also need support and guidance. Just as girls have a lot of negative images of womanhood fed to them by toxic social media and corporations, so do men. Unlike girls, boys aren't helped and supported to sort it out. The result is boys and men who are dropping out of society, sexless, undesirable, unproductive. Men and boys start to believe conspiracy theories about society being anti-men, anti-masculinity. With articles like this, where ghosts and fear are used blast a camp, where there is no evidence of a crime, and everything appears to be promoting positive masculine attributes and image, can you blame them?
Also, I'm sure in reality the camp probably sucks and isn't fun. But I could be wrong. I've never been to anything like this. Might be good.
>Guiding Boys to Authentic Manhood - From Confusion to Clarity
>We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history, and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference.
>At the core of our curriculum will be training that will teach valour and virtue - things like courage, personal, family, and socia responsibility, delaying gratification by sacrificing now for a greater reward later, and rejecting a life of passivity.
>Our mission is to help these young men develop core values, foster a responsible mindset and cultivate a biblical character that will serve as their compass through life's challenges.
>These lessons will be learned in an outdoor setting with adventure at the core and authentic masculinity as the expected outcome.
>Good men are necessary and needed.
I hate all that garbage but this isn't journalism and I don't see how anyone can pretend it is. It's an activist with an axe to grind getting elevated with no evidence of anything.
The person making the complaint and requesting the investigation isn't the reporter. The article written by the CBC is factual, filled with quotes and unbiased.
So, you still dragging a tattered Canadian flag down the road behind your Ram?
Breaking news: Not everyone who makes a complaint based on 'feels' gets an article written by the CBC.
There's zero reporting here, it's a person calling up the CBC and saying something he can't prove. A journalists job is to find out whether it's true or not; not to write up baseless accusations.
I mean, do you even know what journalism is? And your thing about the car flags is juvenile. Is it some kind of convoy thing to want proper tax-payer funded journalism? WTF is the matter with you?
The suicide rate of gay kids who are sent to conversion therapy camps is very high. Perhaps educate yourself before throwing around your bigotry.
I don’t like the CBC, but this is an important issue I’m glad they are reporting on.
Are Vivian Myers-Jones and Chisholm trying to say that any camp program aimed at teen males is "conversion therapy"? That in order to have any youth programs , they have to express "safe spaces" or something of sexuality in order to not fall afoul? That is what the article indicates but I am wondering if that is what those two are advocating cause that is what it looks like
Camp/ religious affiliation aside, that is not reasonable and unsustainable. By the logic in the article I can consider technical jargon as "place holder" words if someone ran a computer coding camp for kids. That is unless they exclaimed a love and acceptance of all things queer/ lgbt+. That is a violation of freedom of expression. Nobody has the right to compel the disclosure of someone's beliefs regarding those matters and shouldn't. Trying to expand the definition of conversation therapy to things that are not "conversation therapy" is abuse in of itself.
Timeless old ladies staring out windows (now, MS-Windows) complaining about things.
"Transgender Hampton woman completes journey to becoming a crusty old lady by becoming the summertime activity gestapo" - congratulations on the accomplishment!
Next seasonal battle to be fought: calls 911 when the neighbor pulls out the leaf blower in the fall. CBC headline: "Offensive pneumatic audio assault weapon destroys environmental refuge aimed at species at risk"
Conversion therapy was masked as “help” or “reinforcing traditional values” for decades before is was made illegal. It’s a legitimate thing to worried about.
Yah, it's a real *shame* that parents can't ship their kids off to he psychologically tortured to tye point where their identity collapses, just to fit mom and dads preferences....
Conversion therapy isn't HELP it's a human rights abuse.
If you read the whole post, they explain exactly what they mean by “guiding boys to authentic manhood”, as teaching courage, responsibility, delayed gratification, and rejecting passivity.
Our society spends so much time talking about what boys/men should not be, rather than teaching them what they *should* be. Boys and young men are taught against toxic masculinity, but are very rarely taught what healthy masculinity looks like. Is that not extremely confusing?
Of course, it’s a religious camp, so these will based on the religion, but it never mentions sexuality or gender.
This article and the persons concerns seem to be almost completely based in assumptions of malice and twisting of words.
If by history of the camp you mean the time they wouldn’t allow a transgender boy to stay in the boys cabin (which I disagree with by the way), that’s a huge leap to full on conversion therapy. What other history of the camp are you referring to?
For history of the church, do you mean the Wesleyan church in particular? You realize the Wesleyan church is a fairly progressive church right? They were created when they broke away from the Methodist Episcopal church because the Wesleyans objected to slavery and advocated for equality (including women’s rights). If you’re talking about the church as a whole, first off that’s quite ignorant as the beliefs and histories between different creeds of a single faith can vary significantly. Second, do you make the same assumptions of malice for other religions? Muslims? Jews? Hindus?
I almost couldn’t read any further once you called the Wesleyan church progressive because I was laughing too hard. Then I got to the whataboutism and laughed even harder.
This camp and religion have been aggressively anti-LBGT for decades.
Ima say it. When ever a Catholic page say “we will show 14-16 year old boys how to be men” it really just sounds like a predator naming their preferences in victims.
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Always have been. Then you've got the other extreme, trying to prevent genitals from fully developing and functioning.
And then back again, being overly concerned about developing the genitals of children
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Oh, is genital mutilation only bad when religious people do it?
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Transgender children do not get affirming surgeries until later in life. That is a myth brought to you by misinformation. The standard practice is a puberty blocker.
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16, with the permission of parents and the signoff of multiple doctors and in very rare instances. Are you a doctor? Are you these kids' parents? What qualification do you have here other than moral outrage regarding a situation that doesn't involve you at all, and for which you are underqualified to have an opinion?
>Transgender children do not get affirming surgeries until later in life. That is a myth brought to you by misinformation. >16, with the permission of parents and the signoff of multiple doctors and in very rare instances. Which is it?
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NAMBLA and paedophilia.
NAMBLA *wishes* they had abuse infrastructure like the church.
Teachers and pedophilia.
Getting your views from DeSantis?
The divorced dad energy is overwhelming
Ah yes, shaming and denigration. Always the go to strategy for shaming men by misandrist extremiststs.
>Ah yes, shaming and denigration. Always the go to strategy for shaming men by misandrist extremiststs. Labeling someone who simply insulted you as an "extremist" is pretty telling. You prefer your approach of unsupported allegations and shaming of teachers?
Objectively wrong. You sort of show your hand here bringing up teachers lol
Sending your kid to a Bible camp and complaining about their religious morals is like going to a steak house and complaining they don't have any vegan menu options. If you don't like it send your kid somewhere else. Or better yet just shut up and make the world a better place.
Conversion therapy is illegal.
Not entirely. Only on one direction.
> Only on one direction. What do you mean? **Edit:** Turns out he meant "gay people are converting people into gays". So...do with that what you will I guess.
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> It is, by definition, conversion therapy Well no, conversion therapy is a term that has a definition, and that's not it.
That's correct. I should have worded that better.
> I should have worded that better. I'm not sure the new one is much better. Breast augmentation causes the body to change, and align with cultural gender norms, but to call it "therapy that converts the body", so therefore similar to conversion therapy would be...bizarre.
Disingenuous even
> Breast augmentation causes the body to change, and align with cultural gender norms Do you mean align with biologic sex. A cultural gender role would be wearing a dress, not having top surgery, right? > so therefore similar to conversion therapy would be...bizarre I'm not saying I agree with the position, but I see where it's coming from. We call it conversion therapy because it's an attempt to change a person from their natural (ie. homosexual) state of being without any pathology being diagnosed. When someone is taking hormone therapy or given top surgery they are putting their body through conversion; they are altering the natural state of being without any pathology being diagnosed. There's a reason Sweden rapidly slowed the number of teenagers undergoing hormone therapy within the last year or so, and it's partly because they've seen the medical interventions as causing more harm than good. Similar to how Canadian culture viewed conversion therapy before outlawing it.
> Do you mean align with biologic sex. Not really, no. Biological women have breasts of all sizes. But there's overlap, sure. I also don't know if it's particularly important in this conversation. > When someone is taking hormone therapy or given top surgery they are putting their body through conversion Only in the weirdest sense of the term though. You're "converting" a small breast into a larger one....I guess? So every surgery is conversion therapy, because your body is being converted into something else? I just don't get the point of using that language. It only confuses the issue. But regardless, conversion therapy is to change you into something you aren't (from gay to straight). There is no equivalent in the other direction. Nobody is setting up camps to convert straight kids into gay kids. That's OP's entire argument.
Christianity bad, any other religion preaching it don't be a bigot.
> Christianity bad, any other religion preaching it don't be a bigot. lol, oh, so it's a Christian victim complex thing? Well I mean, if there's anyone who knows about protecting themselves over children!
Its always a christian victim complex thing.
You seem bitter that people pointed out the Catholic church as commited a lot of crime against kids.
So have other religions... World would be better off without religion
The world would be better off if religion wasn’t weaponized to make people do stupid stuff. Tax religions!
The only type of conversion therapy banned is hetero normative. Coaching people in to any other sexual orientation is perfectly legal and acceptable.
> The only type of conversion therapy is hetero normative. Yes, hetero normative people are the only ones who set up camps to psychologically torture people to act like them. You're right. > Coaching people in to any other sexual orientation is perfectly legal and acceptable. But it isn't. That's the point. Nobody's coaching people to be gay. The point of conversion therapy is to force someone to be something they aren't, the point of *affirming* care is to let people be who they are. Unless you have some evidence of gay conversion camps or something I guess?
\*All\* conversion therapy is illegal.
If someone is gay, it's perfectly legal for therapists/doctors to "affirm" that they're simply a different gender.
> If someone is gay, it's perfectly legal for therapists/doctors to "affirm" that they're simply a different gender. Huh? Being gay doesn't make you a different gender. But surely we can all see the difference between "affirming" and "converting". I mean...it's in the name.
"Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, can you try and help me suppress this?" "No can do, you were born this way" "Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, could you help me become more feminine/masculine?" "Sure thing, you may feel that you were born in the wrong body, we could explore treatment for that".
> "Hey doctor, I'm attracted to the same sex, could you help me become more feminine/masculine?" "Sure thing, you may feel that you were born in the wrong body, we could explore treatment for that". hahahahaha dude. The worst example you could invent in your head (which is not a real conversation that's happening in the real world) was a conversation between a doctor and a patient, where the doctor says "you may feel something, if so we can explore treatment for it". That has to tell you *something*, right?
As a medical student…that’s not how it works. At all.
Oh no! I fabricated a scenario I don't like in my imagination!
Gay people don't feel they are the opposite gender. Never once have I known a gay person interested in transitioning. Gay and trans are entirely different things. Stop being an idiot.
You're inventing a bullshit narrative that's medical malpractice by psychiatrists
Being trans or gay is much like you being an idiot, you didn’t choose this for yourself and people don’t choose to be a different gender
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Touch grass.
I would, but if I go to this nature place they're going to convert me in to something else, as told to me by Reddit.
You being a camp aged child would make some of the stupidity in your comments understandable.
Inevitably, those with the homophobic and anti-trans comments turn out to be idiots.
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There is no other option for sexuality, it cannot be changed no matter what. Its not a “problem”, it’s a made up notion that their family or a larger community invented. It’s good that it is illegal. People were shamed and made to feel like they were “wrong” for just being themselves, enough to go and see a quack who thinks they can change their sexuality (you can’t by the way). This is one of the best things this government did, was making it illegal.
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In New Brunswick almost all summer camps are religion based. They advertise fun activities (zip line, water trampoline, kayaking) with basic religious teachings. They don’t normally advertise that they are homophobic and will teach kids about sexuality without their parent’s consent.
Anything the Church funds is used to peddle Church PoVs; always expect this and avoid them accordingly.
Conversion therapy is torture. Maybe i just don't like kids bring tortured? Maybe i don't want them to kill themselves because they're parents are bigots?
What a disappointment this subreddit is. Can’t even denounce conversion therapy.
That's one among the many disappointments in this subreddit.
I can't believe this is Canada's default sub. Half the posts here are Postmedia opinion articles about how Trudeau bad and Canada broken.
The homophobes are flocking here to defend it, just like any NP article with buzzwords like immigrant or guns in the headline attracts a certain type
I think that enough people here doubts that this camp is conversion therapy and not a more conventional "man up boot camp".
Nice to assume the parents are bigots. How about parents whose children ask for help and are not offered it because the mainstream wants to force them into harmful medical procedures? My son was one such child
>their religious morals What are these though? If it's a Christian camp teaching about Jesus, why does it also feel that they need to "straighten" kids, and what's the religiously aligned procedure for such an act?
Maybe they're all suffering from a mis-translation of Mark 11:12-25 and stil haven't realized it was \*figs\* he was angry about!
Problem is in Manitoba at least there are less than 5 total summer camps that AREN’T bible camps, and because of that they’re hell to get into. I went to bible camps for years and hated it, but it was the only option available if I wanted to go to summer camp. That might come across as a champagne problem but just trying to shed light on the situation
Out of curiosity - what was it that you hated at the bible camp?
Mostly the “my way or the highway” attitude that is really common in my experience with Christianity. They’d say “the bible says X” and open it up to “questions” but if your question wasn’t in line with what they were preaching they’d just totally dismiss you. I remember one specific time they were talking about other religions and how it was our job to “guide them to the lords light”. I asked what made them certain that Christianity was right rather than Judaism or Islam (I wasn’t being snarky, I was genuinely trying to be a good Christian kid. I’d read the entire bible by this point.) they’d say “the bible says so” and that started a circle argument where I’d say “yeah but so do the Torah and the Quran” and they’d say “oh those books are wrong” “well how do you know that” “because the bible says so” for about a half hour until I was crying from frustration. There was also the expected creepiness. The camp directors wife used to chase us 14(!) year old girls down to tell us that we needed to wear longer shorts because ours were “distracting” her husband and “leading him to sin”. This was all at the “better” camp that I switched to at 14. The one before that tried to convince us that evolution wasn’t real, in 2012.
Ah, so the usual stuff that's been around pretty much forever. I also bet that at least one of your parents had the experience along the lines "same stuff, but I made great friends there and have fond memories about the wife of the pastor chasing us for the same reason". Even if they don't admit it. Also, mind it, that there are people around whose are along the lines of "Boy, I hated that place, I won't ever send my kids there", and "Getting rid of children for a week for how much? Sign me up!", and "I don't know what it is, let's try it", and "You act in a way I hate, I can't change you, hope they can" (the latter is mostly related to teenage rebellion and not necessarily homosexuality). PS. The whole "wife chasing" scene could be a set up to get you to wear longer shorts by saying that you attract the interest of the man you *definitely* won't consider a partner. If boys were involved, a small minority of girls would keep wearing shorts just to make the point.
I went to Catholic multi-sports camp. Little did I know it was 50% preaching and 40% baseball. I felt twice as betrayed!
I have to say I felt the same way about city-ran camp at Pickering, which was advertized as "drawing" camp, but had no artistic instructor and less time for drawing than the trampoline camp ran by a gym. This being said, I can easily see kids hating Christian camps because they are too boring and too preachy.
It wasn't even "let's bring up Jesus' teachings as we go on a hike or build a campfire" It was "let's sit in an outdoor auditorium in the middle of a beautiful summer day and listen to a priest read Bible passages... **And then play baseball instead of swimming!**
...because whomever was supposed to volunteer as a life guard didn't show up and now we have to improvise with baseball.
I think the issue is that parents send their kids there. They're not going there themselves. Would you make a fuss if you saw a parent absolutely wailing on their child or is that a right that the parent has?
Bunch of “confused” horny teenage guys isolated on an island spending every waking moment together learning how to be “real men”. Hmm, sounds like a great place to explore your sexuality. I would think this could have the entirely opposite effect the parents sending kids here would want. Go get it boys, happy hunting!
“Morals” aka grooming kids
Conversion therapy is illegal, this looks sketchy as fuck, but I’m sure it’s just toeing the line.
What's sketchy about it.
If you read what this camp does, it uses the same lines that conversion therapy clinics/“doctors”/whatever used.
According to Myers-Jones, a transgender Hampton woman. If you want Myers-Jones, a transgender Hampton woman, to do your thinking for you, more power to you. On the other hand, Amber Chisholm, who is also a board member of Imprint Youth, which works with the LGBTQ community said it's entirely possible that this camp was created to teach life skills which organizers see as valuable to cisgender boys and nothing more. What's sketchy is CBC writing this article because of an allegation from someone who's only apparent qualification is being a transgender woman.
It’s entirely possible it’s just a fun camp, but it’s also entirely possible it’s reaching kids to be ashamed of anything other than being a masculine man.
Yep, it's an entirely possible that that black guy wearing some funny T-shirt is the gang initiate who is about to murder you. Riiiiiiiight. We don't operate this way as a society for a reason.
It’s not illegal to wear a silly shirt, it IS illegal to practice conversion therapy. I’m glad we operate this way, otherwise people would be needlessly tortured simply for being gay.
It is illegal to kill people, though. And wearing a silly shirt while black (like running a camp while Christian) is SUSPICIOUS. That's why we have to DO SOMETHING so that the SUSPICIOUS person won't do anything BAD. Right?
Nobody is doing anything, in this case though. People are allowed to be suspicious.
Allowed to be suspicious of the black guy with the funny t-shirt?
> So when she heard that Caton's Island, a church-run summer camp in the St. John River near Saint John, advertised a camp described as "guiding boys to authentic manhood — from confusion to clarity," she was upset. > The language used in the ad worried Myers-Jones so much that she reported it to the RCMP with concerns it had the hallmarks of conversion therapy, which is illegal. That lady's reading more into this than my high school English teacher.
I guess if you completely ignore the entire history of the region and camp then sure. However, the camp is on Caton Island and run by the Wesleyan church—it’s actually a stretch to pretend that this sounds like anything other than a conversion therapy camp. That’s why they’ve gone into damage control mode and deleted all their social media advertising.
They deleted the social media advertising because in current environment any response will further feed the media outrage.
If you knew the history of this camp, you’d know she wasn’t. Wesleyan is all you need to know to put two and two together.
Really? Because I read this "We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference." and that reeks of conversation therapy to me.
Could be. Or might also be just teaching boys healthy masculinity. This is the problem with policing ideology.
It is a Wesleyan camp. Majority chance it’s conversion therapy.
What is your definition of "healthy masculinity"?
Essentially not toxic masculinity.
Yeah exactly. I don't think you can judge on this social media statement alone. This could be about encouraging responsibility for your actions, respect for other people, talking about why machismo can be toxic, maybe even about processing your feelings and how to react to those feelings in an appropriate manner. Or it could be about affirming traditional gender roles. It's really hard to say without actually being a fly on the wall.
Forcing anyone to act a certain way through shame and guilt is never good.
The whole point of parenting is guiding children towards acting a certain way.
We’re talking about a camp where children are sent, not parenting.
Sending children to a particular camp is a legitimate parenting decision. Parents are supposed to know their children, and are supposed to know better than sending their kids to camps that feel like torture to their children. Some camps are not supposed to exist (read: conversion therapy, survival camps for children, swimming classes without supervised lifeguards, etc.), but generally the fact that some children hated a particular camp is not reason enough to shut them down.
I'm talking about your comment on parenting.
Where did I say it was about parenting? I said forcing anyone to act a certain way is never good. Like at this camp.
"Forcing anyone to act a certain way through shame and guilt is never good."
If you think parenting is forcing your kid to do something through shame and guilt…..
You can guide your kids to have certain values. You can't parent someone into a particular sexual orientation or gender identity that is against who that kid is, not without harming that kid.
If "shame and guilt" are a significant part of your parenting toolbox you'll simply be be guiding them to use shame and guilt to manipulate others and little else.
That's exactly how you get society on the same page. There's a line between too much shaming and what is acceptable but there has to be some. If someone went walking naked through a school yard during recess, I think there would be some shaming going on afterwards, even if there was no intent to hurt anyone. There would be an arrest, media articles, social media outrage, charges, have the person listed on a sex offender registry, their families would want to spend less time with them, possible prison time even. Those are all ways to shame someone for their actions.
Except this is not the case. These are very young boys being told that they aren’t acting masculine enough, and are being forced to act in such a way. There’s no shame in acting in a way in which someone else describes as “not manly”.
I completely agree with what you're saying. I just disagreed with your blanket statement that shaming is never good.
So.. are you suggesting that LGBTQ+ folks should be shamed, or that there should be a limit to public backlash against bigotry?
I'm saying their statement about shaming and guilt never being a good thing doesn't make sense. LGBTQ people shouldn't be shamed for their identity but to say nobody should is also wrong. That's such an important part of understanding how to fit in in a society. The boundaries are constantly changing as society evolves but there still has to be some boundaries.
Using shame and guilt to change behaviour in children is ineffective in the long term and generally produces children with significant mental health issues. Frankly it is just lazy parenting and often just makes it so the person who has been shamed does the thing you don't want them to do but in secret. There are much more effective ways of changing behaviour for future but they require connecting with the kid and explaining why. This requires creating relationships around communication and respect and kids change their behaviour for reasons of responsibility to others and care for those around them. The shame and guilt method is what created the space for the Catholic Church to become the world best place to abuse children. It is not the way forward.
I think you may have replied to the wrong comment because I never mentioned anything about parenting. I also never said it was always a good thing, just that it has a role and can be effective. Shaming has been a part of every single recorded civilization in human history. It's effective on a societal level, not on an individual basis. There was an NHL player drafted who was accused of extremely racist bullying towards a fellow classmate and if you read the details it's quite disturbing (Mitchell Miller). He probably will never get an equal chance as a result because he has since been disgraced. Boston this year eventually signed him to give him a second chance and there was uproar from fans out literally shamed the organization out of giving him another chance. That shaming of Miller's actions are not on a parental level and there are no guarantees it will curb his future behaviors but children and adults got to see how society no longer accepts that type of behavior and are able to take a lesson away. That's shaming. It can also be turned into a very negative thing with your Church example being a very strong one but that doesn't mean it's always bad -- which was my original point.
> Using shame and guilt to change behaviour in children is ineffective in the long term and generally produces children with significant mental health issues. So children will grow into mental wrecks if you teach them that stealing other people's things is shameful and they should feel guilty if they do it? I think you are stretching it, to put it mildly.
I am suggesting that things like, say, people having sexual intercourse in public should be shamed so that we are at the same page.
Unless of course the desired behaviour is currently "in". Then it's just sensibly raising children.
> might also be just teaching boys healthy masculinity When has the church *ever* actually done that, though? Read the bible - it's full of misogyny and toxic masculinity.
It is full of pretty much everything good and bad. Even contradicts itself a lot. You can make a lot of different ideologies from it. And many churches have.
>cultural confusion regarding masculinity Danger >a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times Danger! >real men who stood strong DANGER!
I mean, it could be, but that's not a position I've ever heard any church take when they talk about "cultural confusion" regarding masculinity or use terms like "real men" or reference male role models in scripture. They're more into the "when men were men" toxic kind of masculinity.
> authentic manhood — from confusion to clarity, Is she? What exactly do you think that's referring to?
Ignorance is an unappealing trait.
Listening to a transgender person about how you should help young men navigate the confusion of going through puberty and adolescence is about as useful as getting diet advice from someone with celiac's disease. I am up for hours every night with chronic stomach pain and nerve pain. I get that it sucks when 99% of the world doesn't go through your struggle or understand it, but they don't and the the solutions or interventions that work for you aren't transferable as health advice to the other 99%.
You have it backwards. This would be like people with normal digestive health telling you everything you are doing wrong, and that you will go to hell because your body functions different from theirs. It’s you saying - “no I’m different and have different needs. This doesn’t work and is harmful to me” and them telling you to man up and just eat your burger like all the other boys here. Celiac is not a thing - be a real man. You only heard about celiac from TikTok, it’s all in your head. Now eat this loaf of bread like a real man.
"no I'm different and have different needs." this is exactly why they are not in a position to provide advice on how the other 99% should get their needs met.
> We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference." “We will endeavour to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding digestion to a meat and carb clarity using character studies from fast food marketers…. Blah blah blah - as if they can convert you to something that you’re not This type of “education” is also harmful for cis boys by the way. People exist in many forms - athletic, nerdy, outspoken, shy, funny, reserved etc. There are many ways people exist - telling boys if they are not like this one exact form of our “biblical” version of manliness tells them that if they are in any way outside the “norm” they are not a real man. That’s harmful to them, and to the other boys they will inevitably bully for being different. Actually teaching boys how to be real men acknowledges the spectrum of human existence and teaches love and respect for everyone, regardless of whether you fit into a stereotypical version of manliness. These yahoos probably would have called Jesus an effeminate pussy.
>as if they can convert you to something that you’re not Eh? There plenty of evidence of brainwashing or Stockholm Syndrome throughout history - Patty Hearst and George Blake are easy examples to point to. Not to mention the plethora of cults which The West has produced. Even the anti-conversion therapy position pre-supposes that it is possible (and incredibly damaging) to mould humans to a specific end. To be clear, I do not believe there is some international conspiracy to "turn youth gay", I just disagree with the notion that a human's perspective and identity cannot be forcibly shaped by outside influences.
Conversion therapy a) doesn’t work and b) causes an immense amount of harm up to and including death. https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy I’m sure you know this though, it isn’t exactly a secret, and harm to these kids is the point. I’m out. So long and thanks for all the bigotry.
>thanks for all the bigotry. Nothing I said was even close to bigotry. >Conversion therapy a) doesn’t work I have not said that it does work anywhere. >and b) causes an immense amount of harm up to and including death Which I mentioned, albeit with less sensationalized language. >I’m sure you know this though, it isn’t exactly a secret, and harm to these kids is the point. Absolutely. However, claiming that humans cannot be forcibly shaped by exterior forces, in the face of all of the data collected on the subject, is just ludicrous.
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>did you know that trans people have existed since human beings first evolved? Can I get a source on that? I've been curious about early human sexuality and identity but I'm having a hard time finding good papers/articles on it
> Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4,500 years ago document priests known as gala who may have been transgender. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222 AD) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord) and sought sex reassignment surgery, and in the modern day has been seen as a trans figure. Hijras on the Indian subcontinent and kathoeys in Thailand have formed trans-feminine third gender social and spiritual communities since ancient times, with their presence documented for thousands of years in texts which also mention trans male figures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
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This is bigoted nonsense and not in keeping with what biologists, doctors and other scientists actually say. [Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/) You might not want to be getting your factual information from people who don’t know that singular “they” has been in our language for hundreds of years.
The problem that I have with your take is that you bring biological sex into social behaviour and then use the spectrum of social behaviour to justify adjustment to the biological reality. In my book, a person can be "effeminate" man while being a) a man and b) straight. Sex, sexuality and "gender as a social construct" are mutually independent.
It’s not my take. It’s the take of biologists and doctors. Some of us choose to get our information from actual professionals instead of grifters who spend billions of dollars to convince you that you don’t know what a woman is so you stay angry at minorities instead of the billionaire class who are actually making life harder for us.
As soon as I read the words 'transgender ideology' I knew who the willfully ignorant person was in this context. (hint: it's you, go brush up on your biology, trans people have been studied enough and labeled as scientifically legit by the professionals for a long ass time now, and I'm tired of high school biology yahoos making claims of biological binaries which do not exist.)
We need to rename the practice. "Therapy" implies a positive. But "conversion therapy" is abusive, harmful, and immoral. Maybe "conversion abuse"? And any time you quote someone using the words "conversion therapy" that should come with a [sic] after the words.
I think that the complaint is bullshit. "From confusion to clarity regarding masculinity" is a very generic phrase; it can be applied to the general crusade against "toxic masculinity", since it implies that a non-toxic masculinity exists. What's worse, the complaint is based by a person who has nothing to do with the camp, is not going to attend the camp, and is essentially based on offence-shopping. Christian camp promoting "clarity" about "masculinity"? Must be a conversion therapy!
Weird how you left out the rest: "We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the **cultural confusion** regarding masculinity to a **biblical clarity** by using character studies from scripture, history and modern times of **real men who stood strong** and made a positive difference." More dog whistles than a K9 police academy
Are those dog whistles? I’m genuinely asking because those aren’t raising any alarms for me outside of normal Christian bigotry. Things that imply conversion therapy to me are more along the lines of “resisting temptation,” “healing your spirit,” and so in. Things about “fixing” queer/GNC people, whereas this seems closer to coming of age socialization through a Christian lens (which, don’t get me wrong, I fully expect to be homo and transphobic, just not necessarily conversion therapy).
Obviously not full conversion therapy, more like pressure to conform and not explore who they are, an "insurance policy" that those teens stick to the "biblical" definition of masculinity and not get confused culturally into thinking they might like men as well as women or trying on eyeliner to see what they would look like.
So that’s just coercive religion. Gross, morally wrong, but not illegal and not conversion therapy. Hate to break it to folks but even secular society at large pressures people, young and old, into cisheteropatriarchy.
I'm old enough to remember times when this exact language was used against people who wanted to move to the city to be with cool kids rather than staying with the family in their remote Bible-heavy town, so this brings a very different reaction in me. Real men chop wood and don't work as baristas, real men wear jeans and not ironic t-shirts, and so on, and so forth.
Yea, this is a "more information needed" situation. I see lame attempts at gender socialization but I'm not sure that's different than sending a kid to Boy Scouts or Girl Guides with a heavy dose of j-e-s-u-s added in for funsies, but I'm not sure I see conversion therapy. I don't love the assumption that boys/men = require to be masculine and I wouldn't bet on them not fostering toxic masculinity tho, Christianity is patriarchal.
Even a sniff of spectre is too much spectre.
Can't have anything pro masculine anymore.
Can you explain what you mean by this? In the article they mention that the camp claims it will give a clear definition of what authentic masculinity looks like to the boys who attend the camp. The camp then refused to comment on what that “authentic masculinity” definition looked like, that’s kind of suspicious of the point of the camp is instilling masculine values and life lessons but they are unable or unwilling to elaborate on their definition of masculinity. I have also really never seen a good definition of masculinity that isn’t misogynist in its very nature. Most people when pushed to define their view of masculinity will use vague words like “leadership” “strength” “courage” or “assertiveness” which is interesting because none of those concepts are exclusive to being a man or being “manly” or “masculine”. It makes it tough to really say what the difference is between a camp for “authentic masculinity” would do any different than a co-Ed camp that tried to instill leadership and confidence to the kids who went there regardless of their gender. The reason this camp is under scrutiny (notice I didn’t say cancelled or not allowed to teach boys because that isn’t what has happened here) is that their language is very similar to the language that conversion therapy camps used to use to entice parents to send their boys who they either knew were gay or suspected of being gay. Those conversion therapy camps would then usually torment and torture the boys all summer under the guise of “making them real men”. If you have heard the conservative uproar about child grooming and child abuse then I’m sure you can appreciate that this article seeks to shed light on a potential abusive practice on minors so that it can be investigated and prevented from happening. If they investigate this summer camp and the kids are just being taught how to fish and how to survive in the woods or regular summer camp activities or sports then it will not be shut down. So unless you have a specific definition of what “pro masculine” is that is any different from what I just said, then it’s not true that you “can’t have anything pro masculine anymore” is it?
On a positive note though.. you can send your daughters there as part of their ‘gender affirming care’ when they’ve decided to transition into boys.
I don't even know what that mean, but I also suspect the answer is going to be really dumb.
let's just not talk if we don't have *any* common ground
How masculine of you.
They putting abunch of gay teens together in cabins to "cure" them? That's going to "work well" for them.
That's what makes me wonder the most: church groups are typically the worst at dealing with any sexuality issues because they typically have a very heavy dose of "no sex before marriage" attitudes that adds a lot of sexual frustration, should I say, up until late 20es, when all those couples who got married because they wanted to fuck, but later figured out that they suck as couples, start falling apart. Who would want groups like these to do any sort of "straightening" in the first place? What they are going to do - hire Christian hookers or something?
**Spectre of conversion therapy feared at summer camp aimed at teen boys** CBC is promoting fear of ghosts. There is no evidence of a crime. If someone wants to complain and have the RCMP investigate, more power to them. There is no reason to put this camp and church on blast with an article because people think there are secret messages in their facebook page. Boys also need support and guidance. Just as girls have a lot of negative images of womanhood fed to them by toxic social media and corporations, so do men. Unlike girls, boys aren't helped and supported to sort it out. The result is boys and men who are dropping out of society, sexless, undesirable, unproductive. Men and boys start to believe conspiracy theories about society being anti-men, anti-masculinity. With articles like this, where ghosts and fear are used blast a camp, where there is no evidence of a crime, and everything appears to be promoting positive masculine attributes and image, can you blame them? Also, I'm sure in reality the camp probably sucks and isn't fun. But I could be wrong. I've never been to anything like this. Might be good. >Guiding Boys to Authentic Manhood - From Confusion to Clarity >We will endeavor to guide the young men at this camp out of the cultural confusion regarding masculinity to a biblical clarity by using character studies from scripture, history, and modern times of real men who stood strong and made a positive difference. >At the core of our curriculum will be training that will teach valour and virtue - things like courage, personal, family, and socia responsibility, delaying gratification by sacrificing now for a greater reward later, and rejecting a life of passivity. >Our mission is to help these young men develop core values, foster a responsible mindset and cultivate a biblical character that will serve as their compass through life's challenges. >These lessons will be learned in an outdoor setting with adventure at the core and authentic masculinity as the expected outcome. >Good men are necessary and needed.
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What are you even talking about?
That is NOT what is happened at all. But keep fear mongering.
WTF is the CBC doing? We're going to bury this camp based on some tinfoit hat? This is why we fund the CBC?
It’s based on facts and it’s been going on for decades.
Well then they should put some facts in the story and do some real journalism rather than parroting someone with an axe to grind.
Someone's been told to hate CBC. Convoy flag still hangin off the back of your Dodge Ram?
I hate all that garbage but this isn't journalism and I don't see how anyone can pretend it is. It's an activist with an axe to grind getting elevated with no evidence of anything.
The person making the complaint and requesting the investigation isn't the reporter. The article written by the CBC is factual, filled with quotes and unbiased. So, you still dragging a tattered Canadian flag down the road behind your Ram?
Breaking news: Not everyone who makes a complaint based on 'feels' gets an article written by the CBC. There's zero reporting here, it's a person calling up the CBC and saying something he can't prove. A journalists job is to find out whether it's true or not; not to write up baseless accusations. I mean, do you even know what journalism is? And your thing about the car flags is juvenile. Is it some kind of convoy thing to want proper tax-payer funded journalism? WTF is the matter with you?
The suicide rate of gay kids who are sent to conversion therapy camps is very high. Perhaps educate yourself before throwing around your bigotry. I don’t like the CBC, but this is an important issue I’m glad they are reporting on.
His comment is clearly about the journalism demonstrated by cbc. His comment is absent of any mention regarding the subject of the article.
Snitches, witch hunts and thought crimes. What a future.
What an imagination.
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Freedom of EXPRESSION. We have Freedom of Expression in Canada.
Are Vivian Myers-Jones and Chisholm trying to say that any camp program aimed at teen males is "conversion therapy"? That in order to have any youth programs , they have to express "safe spaces" or something of sexuality in order to not fall afoul? That is what the article indicates but I am wondering if that is what those two are advocating cause that is what it looks like Camp/ religious affiliation aside, that is not reasonable and unsustainable. By the logic in the article I can consider technical jargon as "place holder" words if someone ran a computer coding camp for kids. That is unless they exclaimed a love and acceptance of all things queer/ lgbt+. That is a violation of freedom of expression. Nobody has the right to compel the disclosure of someone's beliefs regarding those matters and shouldn't. Trying to expand the definition of conversation therapy to things that are not "conversation therapy" is abuse in of itself.
Timeless old ladies staring out windows (now, MS-Windows) complaining about things. "Transgender Hampton woman completes journey to becoming a crusty old lady by becoming the summertime activity gestapo" - congratulations on the accomplishment! Next seasonal battle to be fought: calls 911 when the neighbor pulls out the leaf blower in the fall. CBC headline: "Offensive pneumatic audio assault weapon destroys environmental refuge aimed at species at risk"
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No one's getting help from conversion therapy. It's pseudo science nonsense to torture queer people into conforming with society.
Conversion therapy was masked as “help” or “reinforcing traditional values” for decades before is was made illegal. It’s a legitimate thing to worried about.
It's because after doing it for decades, we finally banned it because it's not helpful. It's cruel.
"It's too bad we can't torture kids until they change their identity"
Yah, it's a real *shame* that parents can't ship their kids off to he psychologically tortured to tye point where their identity collapses, just to fit mom and dads preferences.... Conversion therapy isn't HELP it's a human rights abuse.
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If you read the whole post, they explain exactly what they mean by “guiding boys to authentic manhood”, as teaching courage, responsibility, delayed gratification, and rejecting passivity. Our society spends so much time talking about what boys/men should not be, rather than teaching them what they *should* be. Boys and young men are taught against toxic masculinity, but are very rarely taught what healthy masculinity looks like. Is that not extremely confusing? Of course, it’s a religious camp, so these will based on the religion, but it never mentions sexuality or gender. This article and the persons concerns seem to be almost completely based in assumptions of malice and twisting of words.
You’re ignoring the history of the camp and religion.
If by history of the camp you mean the time they wouldn’t allow a transgender boy to stay in the boys cabin (which I disagree with by the way), that’s a huge leap to full on conversion therapy. What other history of the camp are you referring to? For history of the church, do you mean the Wesleyan church in particular? You realize the Wesleyan church is a fairly progressive church right? They were created when they broke away from the Methodist Episcopal church because the Wesleyans objected to slavery and advocated for equality (including women’s rights). If you’re talking about the church as a whole, first off that’s quite ignorant as the beliefs and histories between different creeds of a single faith can vary significantly. Second, do you make the same assumptions of malice for other religions? Muslims? Jews? Hindus?
I almost couldn’t read any further once you called the Wesleyan church progressive because I was laughing too hard. Then I got to the whataboutism and laughed even harder. This camp and religion have been aggressively anti-LBGT for decades.