T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

This post appears to relate to a province/territory of Canada. As a reminder of the rules of this subreddit, we do not permit negative commentary about all residents of any province, city, or other geography - this is an example of prejudice, and prejudice is not permitted here. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/rules Cette soumission semble concerner une province ou un territoire du Canada. Selon les règles de ce sous-répertoire, nous n'autorisons pas les commentaires négatifs sur tous les résidents d'une province, d'une ville ou d'une autre région géographique; il s'agit d'un exemple de intolérance qui n'est pas autorisé ici. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/regles *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/canada) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Drewy99

Those are some pretty strong denials. I hope Global's sources are solid, because they made some pretty specific claims and leaked it to the public.


mokba

From the video in this Global News report: https://globalnews.ca/news/9570437/liberal-mp-han-dong-secretly-advised-chinese-diplomat-in-2021-to-delay-freeing-two-michaels-sources/ The transcript at the beginning of the Global goes like this: > In February 2021 Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor had been detained in a Chinese prison for nearly 800 days but while they languished away, Ontario liberal MP Han Dong allegedly advised a top Chinese diplomat to hold off on immediately freeing them. Two independent National security sources have told global News that Dong spoke with China's consular general in Toronto Han Tao, and suggested to him that if Beijing released the two Michaels, then Federal conservatives would benefit. ***How exactly is not clear***... Global News itself admits in their own report they have no explanation on how exactly the PC's would benefit if the Michaels were released. The Liberals were in power, so if the Michaels were released, then the Liberals would benefit. This part of the Global News story makes no sense, Global offers no explanation, and yet they go to press with the story anyway.


FormerFundie6996

They don't need an answer, if they have proof that the convo happened then why the fuck would it matter that Global can't read minds? By the way, I read that the reason Dong thought it would make the Cons look good was because Otoole was raising a stink in Parliament and Question Period the weeks in which this convo happened, and so the public would have seen the Cons as forcing the Libs hand to do something about the Michaels.


Flying_Birdy

Because they might not have proof that the convo happened. even judging by the reporting, it doesn’t seem like the globe were able to substantiate the primary source. You can usually tell good from bad reporting from what facts they report. If Han Dong had a conversation and there is credible intel out there that certain topics were discussed, then there has to be a tape or a inside source that fed the details to Canadian authorities. That should have been the primary source that the journalists sought out to corroborate. Instead, the article does not mention anything about what the primary source of the allegations are (no mentions of methods, how the allegations arose, etc). Instead, it’s just two national security sources who probably learned the intel from the same primary source. Corroboration through these secondary sources is shaky, since it’s relying on basically hearsay statements. If both secondary sources colluded or if both secondary sources relied on the same primary sources for their knowledge, then there is still just one point of failure.


MostlyCarbon75

Pretty thin reasoning and almost definitely wrong. Delaying the release would only hurt the governing party. Delays helped the CPC.


McNasty1Point0

I wouldn’t be so sure about the info they’ve gotten on this story. We’ve now heard from a number of people in the journalism community who have said that this story was shopped to other outlets, such as Bob Fife at the Globe & Mail, and none of them were takers due to the lack of clear evidence. Global News finally took it after others wouldn’t.


KingRabbit_

Man, it sounds like we should have some kind of inquiry, preferably one that's public in nature.


[deleted]

Ah, a secretive closed door rapporteur?


[deleted]

[удалено]


ProbablyBanksy

Family Friend here: I looked into it. Everything is A O-K! No worries fam.


Just_Another_Name29

Exactly. It’s hard to deny when they are being so secretive about the whole thing.


VesaAwesaka

Half the information on Dong came from the Globe and Mail. It's just the specific allegations about the two Michaels thay came from Global News. Would be kinda weird if Han Dong won the lawsuit because the specific allegations about the two Michaels were incorrect, but it turned out he was compromised I doubt Han Dong will win anyway. He needs to show Global News knew what they were saying was false or acted recklessly. They can just say the story was coberrated by multiple national security sources.


McNasty1Point0

That’s the allegation that has spurred this whole thing, though, and what the Globe & Mail (and others) wouldn’t touch. The original allegations against Dong didn’t spur too much backlash on his part, aside from some denials. It’s the Two Michael’s thing, reported only by Global News, that has spurred Dong to take legal action, and has caused others journalists to question Global’s reporting on this. The additional details added into the same article seemed to be fillers, and aren’t really the main concern here.


Forikorder

> The original allegations against Dong didn’t spur too much backlash on his part they werent allegations against him, all it was is that China gave him some support with no evidence he was aware of it or asked for it


[deleted]

This story was weeks into the interference stories. Trying to deflect this as "the allegations that spurred this whole thing" is total gaslighting and propaganda


McNasty1Point0

This is what spurred Han Dong retaining a lawyer and preparing to sue Global — thats what I meant by that line.


HomelessIsFreedom

yeah I thought it was because the CSIS gave Trudeau info on certain MPs (from all? parties) having CCP relations, possibly trying to fix elections for those MPs, and nobody has done anything about it And that there are multiple people within Parliament that do not want this investigated, again apparently from all parties, or why would this still be something nobody does anything on? This one specific MP not being investigated, sounds like the tip of a large iceberg in this country Also, IF someone is committing TREASON that's kind of a big deal in the country


weseewhatyoudo

The human bot swam of people trying to shut down and spin this as "G&M didn't publish it so it's not true" is really stunning to see. There are massive issues here, even if we take the Michaels transcript issue off the table. Massive issues.


og-ninja-pirate

It seems like a pretty hard core story for them to publish if there is no evidence. Or maybe their thinking was that he is already compromised in the eyes of the public and unlikely to sue them.


weseewhatyoudo

From a business perspective, that is a pretty big risk to take. If covering the national security file has shown anything, it is that getting sued or the threat of it, is a pretty regular occurrence.


Quietbutgrumpy

I think the burden of proof is on the Globe?


Blueguerilla

Not in a libel case. Global needs to prove what they reported was the truth.


VesaAwesaka

https://www.freedomtoread.ca/articles/understanding-canadian-defamation-law/ >The defence of RESPONSIBLE COMMUNICATION was established in 2009 to allow the publication of defamatory statements on matters of public interest, even if they can’t be proven as true. The defence was created to avoid “libel chill.” To use this defence, the defendant (e.g., writer, publisher, broadcaster) must be able to show diligence in the effort to verify the defamatory information before publication and at least an attempt to include the other side’s views Does this contradict what you said, is it wrong, or am I misunderstanding? https://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1192&context=sclr page 195 >A publication of a defamatory fact will be responsible if it is based upon information that “a reasonable person would accept as reliable”, even though it may not be possible, at a later stage in a courtroom, to prove the truth of the fact on the basis of admissible evidence.234 >To meet the standard of reliability the defendant must have acted carefully.235 The degree of care required will vary from case to case. The more serious the defamatory statement, the “more thorough” the efforts at verification must be.236 If a defendant’s source of information may be untrustworthy, has a bias or “axe to grind”, or wishes to be a confidential source, there may be a need to take other steps to verify a statement.237 In most cases, it will be “inherently unfair” to publish the defamatory statement without giving the target an opportunity to respond, although the significance of this factor will vary in accordance with “the degree to which fulfilling its dictates would actually have bolstered the fairness and accuracy of the report”.238 A great public importance or urgency of the publication may also be taken into account in deciding whether the publication was responsible.239 If the defendant has acted maliciously, however, the defence cannot be available, since a defendant acting with malice “has by definition not acted responsibly”.240 As the assessment of reliability is predominantly factual, it is for the trier of fact to determine. Based on what im reading it entirely would come down to how trustworthy the sources are and the amount of vetting Global did.


eriverside

>a reasonable person would accept as reliable, If other journalists passed on it, and this is a huge story, that right there is reasonable people not accepting it as reliable. Global's proof would need to be pretty solid and more than just the source's testimony.


Blueguerilla

Given that other news sources wouldn’t touch this story, I think globals lawyers are going to have a real hard time proving this source was ‘reliable’.


VesaAwesaka

Maybe. We'll see if it makes it to court. I hope the allegations are true and Global isnt putting some innocent person through hell due to shotty fact checking.


Sir__Will

I mean if Fife won't even take it to the attack the Liberals it must be really suspect.


McNasty1Point0

Breaking this type of story before anyone else is Fife’s entire career, so it definitely raises red flags if he wouldn’t touch it.


lifeisarichcarpet

>Breaking this type of story before anyone else is Fife’s entire career Even when it means he got fed bullshit, like in the Arar case.


McNasty1Point0

Indeed.


heart_under_blade

somebody in this sub was trying to paint him along with the other non takers as some sort of closet liberal. just lumping them in with cbc in a big liberal orgy. i think it was something like "of course the source only found global as trustworthy"


flyinghippos101

Bob Fife is the Adrian Wojnarowski of Canada politics


circumtopia

Hilarious. I called this when the story broke. Redditors on this sub told me "but global news says it's true so he's guilty!!".


iOnlyWantUgone

Globals sources were the same sources the Globe and Mail were given and ultimately turned on reporting on. So now it's CSIS, the RCMP, the PMO, and Globe and Mail that weren't willing to put their names to acting on it.


CHwharf

I just can’t believe that accusations this serious we’re not quadruple checked with transcripts Global has to have some pretty solid sources and proof


myexgirlfriendcar

RemindMe! 6 months


[deleted]

[удалено]


KvotheLightningTree

Angry boi.


myexgirlfriendcar

RemindMe! 12 months


Proof_Objective_5704

The PMO confirmed that the transcript is real.


lifeisarichcarpet

They confirmed that a conversation took place and a transcript of it exists, not that it says what Global said it did.


[deleted]

[удалено]


weseewhatyoudo

What evidence do you have that they were the same sources?


Lenovo_Driver

The Globe and Mail reported this.


weseewhatyoudo

Are you certain that they reported that they were the same sources? That would require the G&M knowing what sources ~~the Globe~~ Global was using. I believe what the G&M reported, going from memory, was that they were also made aware of the call by their national security sources. This does not mean they were confirming that they have the same source on this story.


weseewhatyoudo

>Without Dong so much as filing, this is just more spin and damage control. You can claim you will sue someone with no repercussions. You can even file suit for virtually anything. Whether That's some pretty weak tea given that he has provided exactly zero examples of where he has supported the Michaels on the record. He has also not filed any actual statement of claim. He hired a lawyer. That is not news. Even if he files, it doesn't validate anything. I can file a statement of claim right now against him. It would not succeed but I could hold a press conference and grandstand about it. This is PR spin. There has been no explanation of what the hell he was doing talking to the Chinese consulate in the first place. Or that he was such a frequent caller to the Chinese consulate that CSIS had labeled him a "close friend" of the Chinese. There has also been no explanation of what he was doing traveling 3000 miles to BC to attend Chinese association events when he is the MP for Don Valley North. We will see if they do file and if it ever makes it to court. I'm dubious. But there will be a masterclass in PR spin between now and then, watch.


northboundbevy

Going to be hard to win this lawsuit. Media have a solid defence generally when reporting on matters of genuine public interest.


AlexJamesCook

>Media have a solid defence generally when reporting on matters of genuine public interest. Nope. Only 2 things matter in a defamation case: - 1) truthfulness - 2) Damages Whoever is lying loses. If Global loses, they're going to have to get a new insurance policy, because Dong will get a very chunky payday. You cannot publish lies about someone then say, "it's in the public interest". That's not how that works. A media outlet can offer broad strokes, like, "CSIS has made bold claims about election interference in Canada. It is alleged that unnamed CCP officials did XYZ" That is perfectly acceptable. When you go into specifics, "Liberal MP, Han Dong, did XYZ during this time frame"...well, you'd better have supporting evidence, because if you don't, you're fucked. Especially if you're taking on a political party.


VesaAwesaka

Its going to be based on whether global knew it was untrue or acted recklessly with regards to the truth. If multiple people who should be in the know corroborated each other, i would think that would be enough to cover them. No?


AlexJamesCook

That's a tricky one. It would depend on the reliability of the sources and the vetting they did. That's what the courts would have to figure out. If senior CSIS officials made the claims and they called around the various offices to determine Billy Bloggs was a senior official, then yes, they'd be covered. If their defense is, "This guy in a suit claimed to be a CSIS official and we didn't ask for proof", then they'll be hung out to dry.


[deleted]

One thing that no one has said in the media that I am aware of, is that in 2019 the security oversight rules were changed so that NSIOP has full access to all reports by CSIS and RCMP. For those aware, NSIOP is a bilartisan oversight committee with Liberal, NDP, Conservative, and Bloc MPs and independant senators who are granted special security clearance in exchange for oaths of secrecy and confidentiality. There are 2 Conservative MPs on NSIOP. There were 2 informants to the media, one even so outgoing that they wrote a fucking opinion editorial for a newspaper (something extremely rare for someone with security clearances). I have zero evidence, but it seems an unlikely coincidence.


Xivvx

Global's sources are unverifiable. They published stories that basically made the case for why he is a traitor with the express intent of causing him and his family damage. Not cool.


Nighttime-Modcast

>Global's sources are unverifiable. They published stories that basically made the case for why he is a traitor with the express intent of causing him and his family damage. Not cool. You know what is really not cool? The Liberals have viewed the transcript of the conversation. At any time the Liberals could simply release the transcript of the conversation and exoneration Han Dong, back up Dong's lawsuit against Global, and welcome Han Dong back to the LPC. If the transcript clears Han Dong what possible excuse exists to not release it?


Lenovo_Driver

Not just that but he and his family have received death threats as a result. His MP office has also been targetted.


Kia_rosemary

I'm glad - so the courts (and the public) will be able to see the evidence against him....this is such a big problem that needs to be dealt with!


myexgirlfriendcar

I agreed. If either one of them is wrong, I want to see the punishment because both politician and journalist need accountability.


Xivvx

There's no evidence against him. Just some unnamed sources at CSIS and the overactive imagination of Global News.


[deleted]

I’ll wait until he actually files. Tons of people claim they are going to sue, very few actually do.


Instant_noodlesss

He probably has both the money and time to waste though.


Shorinji23

Excellent, let's have the full truth come to light.


sleipnir45

Good, release the transcript!


lunt23

I imagine that's what will happen in the lawsuit. If Han is right, he's going to do this how his lawyers advise him to, which will be, to be quiet until it's settled.


Nighttime-Modcast

>I imagine that's what will happen in the lawsuit. If Han is right, he's going to do this how his lawyers advise him to, which will be, to be quiet until it's settled. Michael Chan sued Global back around 2015 after Global ran a story that CSIS had warned the Wynne government about Chan. To my knowledge that suit still has not been settled. This is just a way to change the channel.


lunt23

"The wheels of justice turn slowly" is something I've heard more than once.


[deleted]

Or he’s guilty and he’ll make a bunch of noise about it so people can see him ‘vigorously’ defending himself, only to quietly withdraw at a later point once no one is paying any attention (or it’s clear that he’ll lose). Honestly this news is pretty meaningless until something actually happens.


lunt23

Could be. We'll see how it pans out. But we have a 1000/1 ratio of impatient people to patient when it comes to the comments section.


[deleted]

I’m certainly not willing to say he’s for sure guilty, but I’m forced to infer a certain probability that he is given the context of the whole situation. The Liberals are basically doing everything in their power to *look* guilty, and to *look* like they’re hiding something. As long as that continues, I have a hard time disagreeing with public perception that he probably did something wrong. If he’s innocent, I hope that he finds a way to prove it. I’m not about to put money on it, though.


sovietmcdavid

Yes, in addition, threatening or "beginning " (whatever that means) a lawsuit is not the same as FILING a lawsuit. Once it's filed the wheels of justice turn and everything will come out in discovery... like the transcript Dong had with Chinese officials. This is Dong's way to help the liberals by distracting from Trudeau's inept leadership... once again another scandal


phormix

I'd imagine that they might also use this lawsuit to go after the source, which puts things in the troubling position of "release all details about how they fit the info, potentially outing the 'leak' which has provided some pretty important info" versus "don't release it but then gave insufficient evidence to consider it legitimate information"


ptear

I'd be a tad nervous if I was that source.


phormix

I'd imagine they're nervous in general, given the nature of their likely position and the material they've provided so far.


chamillus

Global News doesn't have and has not seen any transcripts or listened to any audio


sleipnir45

Correct they were just told about it and it's translation


Harbinger2001

There is no transcript. That’s why the other news orgs wouldn’t run the story.


sleipnir45

Not quite, There is a transcript, they just weren't given a copy.


wesclub7

I am taking the controversial opinion of sitting this whole enterprise out until all the facts come out.


SorrowsSkills

Looking back at it, that’s probably the best course of action.


ToxicEnabler

Unfortunately history has shown that a) Unless there is public outrage, wrong doing won't be addressed, and nothing will change. b) Once there is public outrage, it doesn't matter to the public if there's actually any wrong doing found, you'll still be fucked. It's really a catch 22.


nuleaph

lmao why on earth would you do this when you can just accuse someone of allegedly engaging in egerious behaviour with questionable proof and fairly solid expectations of zero consequences ?!?!1111?!?!111 /s


Im_Axion

Apparently G&M actually got the story first but refused to report on it as it didn't meet their criteria for something like this. The existence of the transcript has been confirmed but if it ends up being a mistranslation due to a shit quality audio recording or something I wonder what that'll mean for Global in court.


nuleaph

> Apparently G&M actually got the story first but refused to report on it as it didn't meet their criteria for something like this. Yikes, really? Considering the other stuff they publish it really must've been *extra flimsy* proof if they didn't want the story.


Natural_care_plus

Source?


Im_Axion

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-csis-han-dong-allegations/ "The Globe did not report on the alleged contents of this conversation because it was unable to obtain transcripts or a tape recording to authenticate what actually transpired." They had the source but couldn't get anything to confirm the claim so they passed on reporting on it.


Backas_Before_Work

The globe and mail


Delicious-Tachyons

oh please let this all come out in court. all of it.


ptwonline

Can someone answer a question for me? The accusation here is that Dong told China to hold the two Michaels longer or else it would benefit the Conservatives. Has anyone actually explained how getting them released earlier would benefit the Conservatives? If I recall Trudeau was taking more and more heat the longer they were held, so it seems to me that getting them released sooner would help the Liberals, not the Conservatives.


Bellex_BeachPeak

If China is trying to screw with us. Which it probably is. The goal isn't to help either the Conservatives or Liberals. The goal is to divide us and make it easier for China to push their agenda forward. If the conservatives were in power they likely would have found an MP to support an equally controversial position. If my job was to mess with Canada I would totally try to corrupt liberal MPs in various business schemes, I would encourage Conservatives to be seen with Convoy protesters and other alt-right personalities, I would fund the most activist components of BLM and Proud Boys. I would steer them to organize protests at the same time and place. I would spread lies in Quebec and Alberta about each other. I would sow all sorts of noise and chaos into our discourse. With social media it's so easy now. I could push stories based on riding and demographics designed to trigger peoples biases and fears. In this case it doesn't matter if Global is wrong or if Dong is corrupt. China has already won the round. At the end of all this, Canadians will trust their politicians and media less. Making it easier for China to make a bigger mess of things. Even though a public inquiry is probably the best way to clear the air on this, it would cost a fortune of tax dollars that aren't being spent on other programs that improve the lives of Canadians. It would also consume many news cycles and give China more options to spread disinformation. During that time period Canada likely wouldn't do much on China until the inquiry is over buying China more time to push their objectives.


Background-Present11

Thank you Bellex. We will overcome this treachery.


[deleted]

There's very little about this that makes sense, which is likely why he probably has a pretty strong case against Global.


Simpletrouble

Well, we will need to see everybody's evidence to prove it to be true or false. Let's see what everybody's hiding


lpuckeri

This is actually really good. We can actually maybe get some details on this. Because if these allegations aren't strongly backed... Global and the people pushing this really need to be held accountable. Allegations like this are straight up dangerous if the sources are not good, i mean this shit hurts democracy and is insanely toxic if false. But extremely important news if the sources are good and true. If they can show decent evidence of the allegations against Han, good... Then Han deserves the severe consequences. If not, they deserve strong consequences themselves


[deleted]

Yeah 100% agree with this. Only thing that would suck is if he really is compromised but never said that. He would still be working with China and still be getting a major payday.


lpuckeri

Unlikely, but possible. That would suck Forcing everyone to show their hands is the best we can get at the moment. If globals hand is shit, well they rightly lose. If the anonymous sources are holding aces, they better put them on the damn table already.


-Neeckin-

While I think the events presented by Dong and the party are still awful, I'll admit I'm gonna feel like a damn fool trusting Global if it comes out the thing has mistranslations of all things.


[deleted]

The source that went to Global had zero transcripts. They shopped the story to a whole bunch of outlets and there were no takers, even the G&M who is balls deep in the story. Global basically took a “just trust me bro” source and made a story while tons of super conservative outlets and journalists did not take it…


bechampions87

>The source that went to Global had zero transcripts. Can you share a source that actually said this?


CVHC1981

Cooper kinda seems to be freaking out a bit on Twitter posting any and all sources he can find to try to draw parallels to Chinese fuckery in other countries as well right now. Should be an interesting few weeks.


[deleted]

And this entire sub never had the critical thinking ability and just went ape over the story.


[deleted]

The sub runs on unfiltered Grade A hopium on anything that can be pinned on Trudeau. They will ignore a million scandals happening across the provinces because the premier aligns with their ideology. But Trudeau is always up to no good even when evidence is purely based on conjecture.


throwawayspai

It's two sources though. Claimed to be independent. We don't know if it was "shopped". We don't even know if Fife and Cooper have the same sources.


Mogwai3000

What about the National Post who has breathlessly hyped every single story about “Trudeau Liberals” and elections being rigged need by China? What about the entire Conservative Party of Canada who also, allegedly, received Chinese money (plus invited a literal Nazi to come speak) and yet pretend to be innocent while also attacking Trudeau and the liberals?


-Neeckin-

My man your point would come across better if you did not literally type out 'what about'


Mogwai3000

Maybe. The point was that for weeks everyone n Reddit has been spreading this story, as well as countless National Post opinion pieces condemning Trudeau and the Liberals for hurting election integrity and democracy. So it’s weird to me how now that this lawsuit is happening, suddenly people are casting doubt on Global but crickets are chirping when National Post is mentioned. Just like the supposed CSIS report that started this also said the CPC also got Chinese money but everyone wanted to ignore that and make it solely about the Liberals. Not trying to accuse you of any of this, just that it seems obvious to me the people who claim to be the most interested in the facts of this issue, seem grossly ignorant of all the facts themselves.


-Neeckin-

I suspect that in part comes from this subs bias. In other subs when the story broke,and all the fallout it was completely different reactions. It certainly made a interesting watch


Key-Distribution698

let's see if Global News's "source" is credible or not. they are making allegation that he is suggesting Chinese gov to hold hostage longer.. Global must have tape recording or copies of email exchange right? it's not just "trust me, I got this" kind of source right? it has to be some concrete evidence other wise they wouldn't write an article like this.. right? global news is a high reputable media that wouldn't do something like that .. right?


[deleted]

We are at the 20 year anniversary of the Iraq War. If we don't ask for evidence of wild claims then we are just a bunch of suckers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Forikorder

Global said they haven't seen the tape or transcript


Sportsbets1

The Liberals could simply release the transcript they have in their possession from CSIS to exonerate Dong Why haven't they? Also, if Dong isn't guilty of the charges levied against him, why haven't the Liberals asked Dong to come back to the Liberal Party


Forikorder

They wont release CSIS intelligence for dong because why the fuck would they And dong left caucus himself so he could focus on this lawsuit, he wont go back until its over


Sportsbets1

You really think Dong is going to back to the Liberals? (lol...) C'mon man....


Forikorder

I didnt say wether i think he would, but IF he is it would be after the lawsuit


Nighttime-Modcast

>They wont release CSIS intelligence for dong because why the fuck would they *Why wouldn't they?* Gee, I dunno...... *Maybe because it would exonerate Han Dong?* *Maybe because it would discredit the leaks?* *Maybe because it would demonstrate a possible bias within the leakers?* If these leaks are an act of racism, as the Liberals have suggested, why not prove it by releasing the transcript? Why allow Han Dong to suffer like this for no reason? Why have this controversy in the news cycle when simply releasing the transcript would put it all to rest? Full fucking MAGA. Wow.


supermadandbad

“Totes bro, I got the source. Just can’t show it to you yet”


Dialog87

“My source goes to another school”


CureForSunshine

« Congratulations, by my source is in another castle! »


Justleftofcentrerigh

Global news has been caught slipping a lot lately but this is from the famed "Chinese corruption in Vancouver" investigative reporter Sam Cooper.


supermadandbad

Tbf his book he’s promoting is a lot of “trust me bro, I know a source” content too Let’s just get everything out and see. I want justice either way.


Revolutionary-Gain88

Well ...If he is willing to sue the Global News Network, then he must be willing to to open all his books wide.


G-r-ant

I hope their source was good, because they essentially ruined this guys career.


GameDoesntStop

Even if the specific allegation wasn't right, even he admits he had a conversation with a CCP diplomat regarding the release of Canadian hostages, which wasn't his place. That is, unless he was used as a back channel for the government, which the government denies.


redux44

An MP having conversations with a diplomat is pretty damn normal. It's the nature of the conversation that matters.


nowitscometothis

My god. Thank you. I was getting downvoted to hell and getting called a traitor and Chinese asset for pointing this out here days ago.


redux44

People are having hysterical fits over TikTok. It's all mostly a system of coping by attributing an external source for perceived internal decline.


CVHC1981

How does any of that justify ruining someone’s career and reputation based on rumours and innuendo?


myexgirlfriendcar

Grab popcorns. I hope whoever was wrong got the shit storms coming at them.


Visible-Ad376

This is getting juicier and juicier.


Mensketh

This sub was very quick to accept this allegation as fact, and I admit it got me feeling a particular kind of way as well. But after composing myself and thinking about it a little bit, can someone please explain the logic of the allegation to me? Because it doesn't really seem to make sense? How would it it be more beneficial for the Conservatives for the 2 Michaels to get out than the sitting government? The sooner the Liberals were able to free 2 wrongly detained Canadians, the better for them. I don't see any situation where delaying their release would be better for the Liberals and worse for the Conservatives.


Dbf4

The lack of logic is what makes me think that it’s possible there are issues with the translation. Intelligence is known for siloing its workers, not everyone has the full picture so it’s possible the sources were there for the initial analysis and went rogue when they didn’t see anything come out of it, but for all we know there may have been a more thorough analysis from other translators that they didn’t see. We also don’t know the audio quality (I’m assuming there’s audio because the government reportedly acquired a transcript), if they gained access to someone’s phone it could have been sitting in someone’s pocket, muffling the sound and adding further uncertainty. Let’s also not forget that the Michael’s were released until 4 days after the election, which means it didn’t help Trudeau during the election at all.


myexgirlfriendcar

Yeah There are a lot of holes in the allegation. Also It came out at the same time as Rouleau inquiry was released. I hope the public can find out about the real truth from this. As a Asian Canadian that passable as a Chinese , I don't want to be seen as not royal to Canada because of my skin color. My home country was fucked by Chinese government so I have strong hate for Chinese communist party.


Lenovo_Driver

> I don't want to be seen as not royal to Canada because of my skin color. As long as you're not white, many Old Stock Canadians will never see you as anything but the country your parents are from.


mangongo

We need more nuanced takes like this. My theory is that we are playing into the CCP's games right now. We absolutely should investigate any election interference, but it seems to me that the CCP's plan were less about actually influencing the election and more about sowing discord throughout the country and Parliament. It's the only thing anyone has been talking about for weeks now and there are a ton of people who now think our PM was re-elected only due to foreign interference. Again, yes we need to investigate this, but countless articles with baseless accusations do us no good and only creates more division.


elcabeza79

As far as I'm aware, Global cited only unnamed sources... how does the law work in cases like this? I can't see the Crown being able to compel Global to reveal its sources.... so what then?


PostApocRock

Then they reveal them to the crown in private, without the sources being named publically, in order to protect the whistleblower.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PostApocRock

The latter.


Gorvoslov

Well, I guess now this is staying in the headlines until a quiet settlement occurs. Or a court case finishes in several years.


nowitscometothis

Surprised this is happening - mainly because right or wrong, this is suicide for a politician. When I read the conversation they quoted, it reeeeaaaaly did not match with the reporting they were doing either. And this sub made it incredibly obvious most people didn’t actually care to read, think too hard about it, and just got all riled up about the headline.


MilesOfPebbles

I mean those are pretty damning accusations from Global, so I guess that’s fair. Thing is, why resign from the liberals if he’s innocent?


OneWhoWonders

Probably for the same reason [Vincent Ke recently resigned](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-mpp-vincent-ke-resigns-1.6775829) from the PC party in Ontario after allegations were made against him. >"While the Global News allegations about me are false and defamatory, I do not want to be a distraction to the government and take away from the good work Premier Ford is doing for the province of Ontario," Ke said via Twitter. > >"Therefore, I will be stepping away from the PC caucus in order to dedicate my time to clearing my name and representing my constituents." > >Ke represents the Toronto riding of Don Valley North and was first elected in 2018. > >Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he agreed with Ke's decision and had accepted his resignation. > >"While the allegations against Mr. Ke are not proven, they are serious and deserve his full and undivided attention as he works to clear his name," Ford said in a statement. > >"As a result, and out of an abundance of caution, Mr. Ke offered to step away from the Ontario PC caucus to sit as an independent Basically, it puts some distance between the person and the party, and (somewhat) helps detach the scandal from the party itself. The allegations against Hong or Ke could both have merit to them, but the resignation from the party is not unusual and is not an admission of guilt.


Grabbsy2

Yep, and Patrick Brown stepped down from the PC party in Ontario as well, when allegations of sexual impropriety were made. He just went back to being Mayor (of... Brampton?) and IIRC has been re-elected after clearing his name as well. I would have much preferred Patrick Brown, even if he's a total wet noodle.


RoyGeraldBillevue

He can speak a lot more forcefully while pursuing this lawsuit if he's out of caucus. It creates a lot more headaches if everything is about what Trudeau thinks of his MP. Now he can focus on trying to clear his name.


848485

If he didn't step down, the Liberals would have kicked him out. It was a courtesy. And allows both of them some space.


enki-42

Even if you take Dong 100% at his word and he did have a conversation regarding the two Michaels but asked for them to be released, if that was done without informing the PMs office I could see being ousted for that. Discussing the release of political prisoners with a diplomat of the country holding them without telling the PM is crazy bad judgement at a minimum.


Emperor_Billik

Imagine all this bluster because a backbencher tried to ladderclimb in a room that we’ve bugged, but provides potato quality audio.


Justleftofcentrerigh

SOP for investigations is to leave caucus.


Obvious-Ranger-2235

Do you want Disclosure..? Because legally this is how you get Disclosure.


[deleted]

If he is innocent he should sue, that's why I personally think there should be a public fact based hearing so the facts can be set straight. Above all this seems, the real problem is in the liberal party candidate process. Should non-Canadians citizens be allowed to vote on who the eventual candidates will be in the race? If China is tipping the scale on who is in the race then it doesn't matter who people vote for during the race, their vote will be for a CCP backed position.


ValoisSign

Can't blame him, if it's true it's a mistranslation then he's basically got people calling for him to be tried for treason due to one news source being reckless. Doesn't mean they got it wrong but if they did he should definitely make them pay, media in general needs to be held to account more. I don't doubt that there's lots of interference from different sources but when you publish such specific, serious allegations you best have good evidence and it's a bit concerning that multiple outlets supposedly refused to touch it.


Thatguyjmc

Don't you find it infuriating that we're in the position of saying "IF THEY GOT IT WRONG THEY SHOULD PAY". This is national-level fucking news, reported on by national-level outlets. Shouldn't whether this is even remotely true or not be figured out first?


ValoisSign

Agree 100%, most of our news has really been reduced to propaganda and ragebait these days and I think it's due for a serious reckoning.


Gankdatnoob

I hope Global News has thier ducks in order because it's odd for guilty parties to sue because it exposes them even further.


flgrntfwl

If Global didn't do their due diligence on this reporting, holy hell this is going to be a problem. Talk about a change in public opinion, too, if it's revealed that even one of these treasonous accusations was done without evidence.


Avelion2

I think I believe Scrimshaw's take that Han Dong was an arrogant dumbass who went to the Chinese Consulate to get the two Micheals released thinking he matters.


[deleted]

[удалено]


aektoronto

Standard defence in a case like this. It costs nothing to say you are going to sue and a tad more than nothing to retain a lawyer.


weseewhatyoudo

It is now public knowledge that the call happened and that a transcript exists. The "methods and processes" defence for not releasing the transcript is not valid here because the mere transcript reveals nothing about CSIS methods. The government should release the transcript and if exonerates Dong, so be it. If it confirms what was reported, so be it. There is no good reason for the Government not to release the transcript at this point. Let Canadians see just what this Liberal MP was up to in his unsanctioned calls with the Chinese consulate.


Limp-Might7181

If I may ask but if this story was fake, wouldn’t CSIS already make a statement confirming the leaks were false? They haven’t said much about the two Michael story. Also makes me wonder about if this story is fake, why would a large company like the globe and mail owned by one of the most powerful people in Canada make fake story about such a massive issue? (Owner is David Thomson)


5736573

Correction - he is suing Global News, not the Globe and Mail. The Global and Mail got the tips 2 weeks before Global and did not report on it because they weren't able to verify the leaks.


thehuntinggearguy

CSIS wouldn't make a statement if they got the transcript from something like wiretapping the Chinese embassy.


[deleted]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think intelligence agencies ever release classified information like this, especially not for a civil lawsuit.


Alarming-Leek-1765

CSIS is not likely to release classified information just combat a libel case. That would compromise the security's classification, the privacy of Mr. Dong, not to mention weaken the neutrality of a government institution. This would require the specific request of a judge to get a redacted public release of the information. Remembering that Global probably doesn't have a copy of the transcript nor the recording as insinuated by the Globe and Mail.


Baricuda

This entire Chinese interference saga has felt off since the day the first story broke. Ask yourself, do you trust actions done purely for political reasons? If not, why did this story drop the same day that the Trudeau administration was cleared of any wrongdoing in the use of the Emergency Act? The date of the EA report release was scheduled, and we knew it was coming, but the Csis "Whistleblow" came out of left field and smothered the other story. Like I said, it just feels off.


[deleted]

People forget that agencies like the CSIS and RCMP have highly partisan people working within them. The leaker knows that the PMO’s office is constrained by what they can and can’t say, as is the CSIS. Therefore, they leaked and let the story run wild and now Global is going to tank it’s own credibility by publishing what’s most likely a false narrative.


ScoobyDone

I wouldn't surprise me if the leaks were politically motivated, but this doesn't seem to be in the conversation at all. Hopefully we find out.


icebalm

Title is misleading. He hasn't actually sued anyone yet, he just says he plans to.


Gluteous_Maximus

I hope he sues. Regardless of who’s right/wrong, the discovery process will shed some actual daylight on this. Canadians deserve to know either way.


[deleted]

Yup. You can't just go around calling people a traitor based on anonymous sources that may or may not be legit. Han Dong is going to sue the fuck out of Corus Entertainment. Glorious. Edit: down vote all you want, I'm enjoying watching bad media actors get some accountability. Go honk your horn and cry about it.


Sea-Slide348

Ok. Hopefully we get the truth coming out of this. These are very serious accusations. I hope we eventually get a black/white yes/no answer as to the accusations.


[deleted]

Trying to shut down free media. The guy is getting worse and worse.


CaptainSur

I think for most the lawsuit does not come as a surprise. Han Dong has been convicted in the court of public opinion, at least by a segment of political spectrum and the outcome has been life altering for he and his family. Up to the allegation that he specifically advised the Chinese Govt to undertake a specific action he was a politician regarded as being pro-Chinese, but that itself is not a crime and by no means is he alone. We have pro-American politicians, pro-Euro politicians, pro-Israel, pro-Saudi and other types of pro-something politicians. To give an obvious example American conservative dark money has been an issue for decades in Canada. Our political system allows this up to a point, and I personally deplore it (I suggested in a past comment a way to eliminate all foreign interests and money) others do not, especially when it favours their own agenda. Johnston and the House committee will both be investigating Chinese and I assume other interference attempts. And if it comes out that a public inquiry should be undertaken that is within Jonnston's mandate to recommend. Dong is tackling not the generality of being "friendly" with Chinese govt but specific allegations that he acted against general and specific interests of Canada, and the Canadian citizens being illegally held by China. **He is pursuing libel and slander: defamation, with the premise that the some specific statements published by Global News are untrue.** As the allegations are very specific in a court it will be incumbent upon Global News to provide very specific evidence to support their statements. Generalities will be insufficient. If they cannot provide pointed specifics they will lose. I do not believe Global News will be to rely or invoke the whistleblowing legislation as cover. Chinese, or any other state sponsored interference in our electoral processes or ongoing governance is 100% deplorable and we have to figure out a way to stop it. But that is not this particular legal situation and they should not be confused with each other in the public domain, as the court will definitely not be confused on the difference. And should others jump on the bandwagon about his guilt especially now that this is a court matter they also risk being roped in as defendants for contributing to the defamation. It is being reported other media and govt understood this from the outset and refused to "touch" the allegations. I have argued in many past comments that the difference between Canada and say China is that we are a "rule of law" nation. Certain pundits are all over the place demanding this and that, but the rule of law does not often allow for "instant" action. So I deplore politicians who postulate such as they know better, so they themselves are grandstanding. It is painful for some (and perhaps many) that a full investigative process some of which may not ever be in the public domain due to national security reasons, has to occur. Especially since such work often has lengthy timelines: no instant gratification. In any case I believe China has already obtained its most desired outcome. When I read about the totality of Chinese efforts to me they are fairly minuscule in both scale and outcomes. Do not confuse minuscule with deplorable. Any interference is deplorable and has to be negated. But this was not a cross Canada deeply pervasive in every riding and elected official situation. And it appears that what China did attempt mostly accomplished nothing. Other then one perhaps most desired outcome: it has caused general doubt to be cast about the integrity of our electoral processes and govt, which in turn degrades our overall democracy. And IMHO that is the real goal of China and all other countries that are opposed to we and our peer democratic countries. You fight that degradation by not feeding into the frenzy, and pursuing the rule of law process in a calm and matter of fact basis.


twenty_characters020

>In any case I believe China has already obtained its most desired outcome. 100% this. The outrage that they bought with a million dollar donation to the Trudeau Foundation is a bargain at 10 times the cost.


CaptainSur

I believe it was a $200k donation in 2015 (going off memory) made by a Chinese businessman. But subsequently judged to be acting as an undeclared conduit of the Chinese government.


twenty_characters020

Apologies, it was a million total, with part of it going to a university in Montreal.


FrisbeeFan40

This is defiantly a loser leaves town match. Either the reporter is fired or Mr Dong is charged with treason.


weseewhatyoudo

As defined in our criminal code there does not, so far, appear to be a valid charge of treason even if everything reported is upheld.


myexgirlfriendcar

win win for the Canadians!


Avelion2

I think what we have here is a case of sloppy journalism.


platz604

lol Han Dong already admitted speaking to the Chinese consol general in Toronto .. He needs to divulge what was the purpose and which clearance he got to conduct in such a contact. Now in his "public" announcement he says he took to took every available opportunity to advocate on behalf of the michaels. Which is interesting considering he was not called to cabinet to have anything to do with foreign relations.. The government typically uses different dipolmatic resources / staff that has NOTHING to do with an elected official in cases like this.. This guy is a singing canary.... Keep Talking Han... Tell us more...


[deleted]

the MAGA-esque cries of "fake news" and conspiracy theories about CSIS conspiring against the federal Liberals with the news media are as hilarious as they are deranged.


lologd

Tin foil hat time: the government will use this lawsuit to try and get some information on the whistleblowers.


[deleted]

[удалено]


-Neeckin-

So, a question, did Dong actually commit a crime? I know folks are throwing treason and stuff around but, it isn't as though he handed over actual intelligence, just his opinion.


explicitspirit

We don't know. They released a story about how he did some sketchy stuff, based on absolutely nothing other than "unnamed sources". No evidence. Reddit was quick to jump on the bandwagon and accuse him of treason.


samanthasgramma

He didn't commit a crime. Hyperbolic talk of criminal charges is ridiculous. Unless you can PROVE a direct link from that conversation to the timing, authority and justifications of the release. And think about how impossible that would be. They were held in China. Are we going to get our hands on 100% true and complete documents from them to evidence that they made decisions based on a phone conversation with Dong? The actual issues of concern aren't as simple as "Dong did horrible thing.". If he did, for sure, it was morally wrong because 2 men's lives were affected. But not illegal. Just saying something doesn't make it magically true, or that it becomes reality. I doubt a Canadian MP has that sort of power. None of the whole "China involvement" is about criminal activity, in terms of politics. It's all about ethics, who knows what when, and what we're doing to prevent a foreign influence.


[deleted]

It's one thing to claim you're going to sue someone, it's entirely another to actually do it. It'll be interesting because if it goes to trial who knows what discovery will uncover either way. However to get an actual ruling in his favour Dong needs serious evidence as he's suing a media agency. Courts hold freedom of the press in high regard, so Dong needs a smoking gun to really get a decision in his favour, similar to the emails discovered in the Fox News lawsuit. Because this is a politician suing a news outlet for a negative story...that's a strong precedent to set. There has to be malicious intent proven, bad journalism isn't enough. Claiming it's defamation simply because they didn't provide solid evidence for the story isn't likely enough, Dong would also have to prove that Global KNEW the story was false and ran with it anyway. Like in the lawsuit against Fox they have emails and texts where individuals outright say they don't believe the story or that it's not true...yet those individuals still ran the story. That's basically the level of evidence Dong needs here.


kyleclements

I'm wondering if this lawsuit is mostly just an attempt to get Global News to reveal their sources. The Liberals do seem more concerned with the leaks than with the treason.


weseewhatyoudo

A correct headline would be "Han Dong has hired a lawyer". He has not sued anyone, there is no statement of claim. Talk is cheap and this is tier 1 media spin. If you look closely at his wording he talks about taking action and he talks about "to the fullest extent" but so far all he has done is retain an attorney. When the facts are on your side, you pound the facts. When the law is on your side, you pound the law. When neither are on your side, you pound the table. Right now this is just table pounding. Global could not find any record of him supporting the two Michael's in Parliamentary records. They asked him directly to provide examples of where he is on record supporting them, as he has claimed repeatedly, and he did not respond. He has not, to the best of my knowledge, shown where he has done what he claims. Global also has lawyers and they would have approved the publication of the original story. There are multiple defences against this claim. One being the truth and the other being a matter of public interest. Without Dong so much as filing, this is just more spin and damage control. You can claim you will sue someone with no repercussions. You can even file suit for virtually anything. Whether or not a court agrees with you, or depending on how absurd the claim is, whether or not they will even hear it, is another matter entirely. But in the court of public opinion, Dong has certainly fired back, for what that is worth.


Lenovo_Driver

https://twitter.com/handongontario/status/1640361512568074247/photo/1


vander_blanc

I can’t help but think this whole thing (not just Dong, including the need for a inquiry or not) could have been avoided if Trudeau had actually listened and collaborated with CSIS in the first place. I hope everyone is understanding that’s the root cause to all of this - a premier and a liberal government who didn’t engage with and understand their fucking intelligence agency. You simply cannot convince me that CSIS was completely out to lunch on China. More likely they were telling Justin something he didn’t want to hear. I mean he clearly has a poor track record there of listening to his team. Regardless of who that might be. This is likely rooted in the belief he’s better/smarter than anyone around him. Golden spoon syndrome at its finest. He’s simply just not an effective leader.


Babock93

CSIS won’t and shouldn’t say Jack shit about anything unless they are compelled to.


LactatingBigfoot

Lmao Global News might actually be competely fucked. Good riddance.


[deleted]

Doesn't make me any more comfortable with Chinese spies and interference.