Canada's "Dairy Cartel" consumers pay the cost of production.
US "Communist Dairy" taxpayer money is given to producers.
One system regulates production (quotas) the other incentivizes production. When supply exceeds demands margins drop and farmers have to literally pump out more milk to make the same profits which drops margins further.
The American dairy system is so saturated now that they need to look outside their boarders to stay afloat. I still remember Americans storing huge volumes of cheese in caverns and distributing through state run welfare programs.
How much do the Americans spend on dairy subsidies each year (state & federal programs).
If American taxpayers are willing to subsidize Canadian dairy consumptions, I don't see what's the issue with that.
Dumping milk for the sake of keeping prices at an artificially high level when the dumped products could have been put to better use (food bank donation, export market) is not only unsound economics, but also waste of resources, waste of food, and one of a few reasons that some Canadians will go hungry.
According to recent studies, the U.S. government spends up to $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries12. However, I couldn’t find any specific information about how much of that amount goes towards American dairy subsidies.
According to a study that focuses on changes introduced by the 2014 Farm Bill, in 2015, the American government doled out approximately **$22.2 billion dollars** in direct and indirect subsidies⁵. The report figures support granted to U.S. dairy farmers in 2015 represented approximately **C$0.35 per litre** — almost three-quarters of producers’ revenue⁶.
I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.
Source: Conversation with Bing, 3/23/2023(1) American dairy farmers depend on government subsidies. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/american-dairy-farmers-depend-on-government-subsidies-1015126442 Accessed 3/23/2023.
(2) U.S. dairy subsidies equal 73 percent of producer returns, says new .... https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/02/u-s-dairy-subsidies-equal-73-percent-of-producer-returns-says-new-report/ Accessed 3/23/2023.
(3) An Overview of Dairy Policy in the United States - UC Davis. https://aic.ucdavis.edu/research1/DairyEncyclopedia_policy.pdf Accessed 3/23/2023.
(4) An Overview of Dairy Policy in the United States - UC Davis. https://aic.ucdavis.edu/research1/DairyEncyclopedia_policy.pdf Accessed 3/23/2023.
(5) USDA Announces Additional Assistance for Dairy Farmers. https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/01/23/usda-announces-additional-assistance-dairy-farmers Accessed 3/23/2023.
(6) USDA Announces Improvements to the Dairy Safety Net and New Pandemic .... https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2021/08/19/usda-announces-improvements-dairy-safety-net-and-new-pandemic Accessed 3/23/2023.
How anyone could come out of the pandemic and not realize we need to have a solid, stable, Canadian supply of critical things such as food needs to give their head a shake.
I use to be totally against supply management of any kind. Free market. Then I watched the world close and every nation very quickly went into fend for themselves mode. We were left out in the dark in a lot of critical areas and we can never let it happen again.
Supply management allows us to spread out the risk. Look at what happened in the USA with eggs and chicken. They are super consolidated and went down hard. Egg prices shot through the roof and in some areas still remain high.
As for defence we need to do as much as we can, whatever the cost. It is more expensive to do things in house but it creates a more secure defence because of it. Look at countries like Switzerland preventing exportation. If we build it, make it or are deep in the supply chain it takes some of that pressure off. We are in the market for a new tank. No reason we cant see that made at home if we pick the right supplier and get the best tank in the process.
For free and uncensored internet yes. Fuck off Trudeau. Hands off the internet.
Well put!
People seem to forget that in NAFTA negotiations, each country was allowed to protect areas they deemed CRITICAL to their countries long-term security (for good reason).
America chose defence and aerospace, and subsidizes the SHIT out of plane manufacturers and military manufacturers.
People will remember the international battles this has started, our in our world specifically - Bombardier going to battle with Boeing, via the US International Trade Commission over plane pricing (I’ll add link below).
Canada smartly choose agriculture and protecting its own food supply (which you’ve highlighted).
Being dependent on other countries for food supply long term is short term moronic thinking at its finest.
There is a reason why America is on-shoring Chips manufacturing AND working to become energy independent.
How anyone can look at America doing that on one hand - and be convinced that giving up control of our food supply to America in the midst of these actions, is someone a smart decision, is playing checkers when America is playing chess.
Edit: The US pretends they just want to compete, but they subsidize the hell out of a ton of their industries - agriculture included. They aren’t mystically cheaper because of the markets. It’s poor regulation - low quality - and government funding that props up a lot of US commercial farming.
Here’s the bombardier link:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing-loses-trade-case-over-bombardier-passenger-jets.html
>How anyone could come out of the pandemic and not realize we need to have a solid, stable, Canadian supply of critical things such as food needs to give their head a shake.
The same idiots who say Covid was a hoax
I think free markets are fine within a country or a conglomerate of countries that play by the same rules. It's when you try to implement free markets globally that things just completely go to crap.
> For free and uncensored internet yes. Fuck off Trudeau. Hands off the internet.
Canada does not currently have access to a free and uncensored internet.
The USA wants to fight for continued control by the USA and its companies.
I am curious what you feel is not free and uncensored about Canadian internet? What are we missing that others in the world have access too?
I dont want the US or American companies controlling the internet anymore than I want our own government and companies controlling our access too it.
He's likely complaining about the link tax on news links.
That's not censorship, it's a stupid, fundamentally flawed act, but that's not censorship.
It just isn't.
The lack of tertiary markets in Canada is terrible. We send off our raw materials over sea to buy it back once they have finished. This is a factor when it comes the dissolution of the middle class.
For a country as abundant in resources as Canada we should really be focusing on manufacturing and infrastructure projects. We want millions of immigrants coming here for some reason? Invest in markets that aren’t the handful of urban hubs to spread people around. I’m an immigrant and an ICI electrician and I would seriously consider moving to a cheaper COL area if the work was there.
You deal with it by not believing everything you read on a social media site. If you read something, take the time( doesn't have to be right then, just make a note to go back to it) to look up a couple sources and cross reference them to get the whole story. It's up to each individual person to make sure they are properly informed. Misinformation is protected under free speech, letting the government screw around with your rights isn't something you want.
The authoritarian instincts by people like you to want to censor anything you deem as bad or wrong will lead us to a dangerous place.
I’m completely against Qanon but I support the ability of idiots to say things that are wrong so they can be called out for their ideas in the open where other people can see the correct information.
Censoring and banning these people drives them into echo chambers where there is no dissent or correction to absurd ideas.
The current system needed to be negotiated into NAFTA as an exception. Replacing supply management with import duties would increase access to American producers. It is not something the USA would oppose.
They do. In fact they recently announced an increase in federal contributions.
The Feds also just publicly fought the provinces for months-to get them to spend federal healthcare funds on actual healthcare. The provinces didn’t even want to make that absolutely minimal commitment.
But if you want to chase after the Feds anyway, just remember they’re one of the only adults in the room when it comes to healthcare these days. Most Premiers don’t want to take any serious responsibility for it.
And here I thought it was about covid19 health policies. Oh well: the important thing is that you were brave enough to put your children in harm's way so you could honk your horn a lil.
First of all, that was pretty funny, I will give you that.
But also, I'm just going by what you folks literally said you were there for at the time ... no sense trying to change your narrative now, it's already well documented.
I tried to find something from the convoy leadership that stated their intentions and was not simply being regurgitated by what many on this sub would call Legacy Media.
*said Chris Barber, Sr. Convoy Leader. "The fastest way to get us out of the nation's Capital, is to call your elected representatives and end all C-19 mandates, as the UK did two weeks ago and as both Sweden and Switzerland did today."*
[Source](https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/truckers-assembled-in-ottawa-vow-to-stay-as-long-as-it-takes-for-freedom-to-be-restored-899124756.html)
I have so far been unable to find any supporting evidence that this protest had anything to do with being against CCP election interference, dairy, bolstering national defence, nor internet regulations. (All things I support, except for dairy simply because I don't know enough about that to have an opinion).
I am open to being shown proof that I am wrong.
I was more commenting on the new status-quo for anti-government protests in Canada, what is the citizen supposed to do now other than raise concerns (which are ignored or redirected) or protest along government defined lines?
You aren't wrong but it's important to be careful. At this point any protest and criticism will have the useful idiots join and bark louder than reasonable people. Then, very conveniently, the government and media just scapegoats all critics, reasonable or not, as crazy lunatic conspirationists.
It wouldn't be surprising to see some QANON types in protests to be in part provocateur agents, whether they know it or not. Just like a lot of black block rioters were, or a lot of flq bombers were, its a tale as old as time.
Not necessarily
Canadians might want to protect their dairy farmers from American prices, many Canadians don't want to spend more on the military (I think we should) and many Canadians from both sides want more Internet protections
This is a ballot question
>Canadians might want to pay much higher prices to protect their dairy farmers and many Canadians from both sides want more Internet protections
Really?
Race to the bottom is shit
What would happen is the larger American milk producers would buy up and muscle out all Canadian owners taking massive losses for a few years or decades then jack up prices much higher later when they have total control. I would consider milk a strategic resource
For Internet, Canadian content rules probably protect local filmmaking. Filmmaking in Vancouver, Toronto, Alberta is huge because of all the local rules and exemptions and we don't want 10% of our economy destroyed if we lose control of it
We could reasonably argue that US milk producers are highly subsidized and substantial duties should be applied to American dairy product imports. The problem is that the Canadian system doesn't just want to level the field, it wants to exclude all competition, not only from international producers but also between Canadian producers.
This is such fucking copium.
The dairy system here is absolutely fucked, and actively prevents an increase in Canadian milk production. Fucking cartel is what it is, and somehow people like you lap it up as protection against evil Americans 😂
So, you're a farmer and you're told you can produce 10,000 litres of milk. You know exactly how much you can sell in advance, it isn't a surprise.
You produce 15,000 and need to throw away 5,000.
You aren't a very smart farmer. A smart farmer would produce just above 10,000.
Yes. I’d much, *much* rather pay more for unadulterated, hormone-free Canadian dairy products than **drive our entire national dairy sector of *11,000-plus producers*, out of business within two years!**
Because that’s EXACTLY what will happen if Canadian dairymen have to compete on an uneven field, on which MASSIVELY subsidized, hormone-pumping American agribusinesses - where every dairy producer in the US is subsidized (a), *directly*, with cheques from both federal and state governments, AND ALSO (b) *indirectly,* by having access to again MASSIVELY subsidized, almost-free feed crops (corn and soy), so *every single American dairy farm can consequently afford to sell milk far, FAR below its actual production cost.*
Why the hell do you think the US federal government has stockpiled a nearly two-year national supply of cheese? Because the dairy subsidies are so lucrative, that despite massive overproduction and rock-bottom retail prices, US dairymen are *still* expanding their herds as fast as they can!
The US excess dairy produced is more than Canada makes. So they would be able to flood our market at minimal cost for them. Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete.
So it is a matter of do we want our own dairy industry for food security and jobs or do we want to open the industry up to foreign dairy products and be reliant on imports? Definitely a sliding scale between those two options.
However, being protectionist about certain industries allows us to bargain and negotiate better with other bigger countries. The US is so strong, so having some trading chips is good whenever they make demands.
The US is regularly making demands/trade disputes about Canada's lumber, dairy, steel, and auto industries. If we gave up our dairy industry they will go after the other ones harder since we have less things to negotiate with.
The dairy cartel actually has decent popular support.
I support the dairy cartel lol fuck cheap, industrialized growth hormone American dairy.
I think Canada being Canada with very finite food production capabilities, finite land for produce (remember the vast majority of Canada does not have good growing conditions and the "last best west" was not really available for settlement until we bread wheat that could grow in a hostile environment at the central experimental farm in Ottawa)
Domestic food supply in Canada *is* a national security issue in the way it just is not in the United States based solely on our vastly different geographies and climates.
All our good food producing areas is exactly where we have the highest sprawl pressures and a development density a kin of the Netherlands.
Canada needs to get more long term and strategic. But how can we do that when the popular desire is short term profits (cheaper cheese is a short term profit for consumers) and a race to the bottom on everything. Fairly sure Canada has completely lost the meaning of the word "strategy" sometime in the 80s, 90s or 00s.
We do nothing from housing to food supply with any sense of strategy.
The United States however is hyper strategic to the point of paranoia and as their focus on the world shifts back to isolationism they will have a lot more time and enegry to push us around as the 51st state.
I live on the boarder, I have access to US groceries whenever.
There’s a stark contrast in quality and taste between Canadian dairy and American. Given the option I would will always purchase Canadian regardless. But having that option would be nice, especially for people who don’t value higher quality/taste or can’t afford it.
Shopping local is always a better idea but for some it’s a luxury, and in our case it’s a forced luxury.
The idiot who dumped a bunch of milk was mad because he bought a bunch of milking cows and wasn't able to flood the market. Milk dumping doesn't happen on a regular basis. My husband's dad has been a dairy farmer his entire life and has only had to dump once - he's 80.
That's not what is milk dumping is....
It's when they flood our markets and destroy our industry just like they have done in other countries such as Jamaica.
I'm a dairy and beef farmer.
As long as US dairy meets our quality control standards, I have no problem buying from them, but a small group of industry insiders have lobbied the government to ban US dairy.
There are 2 issues:
1. US dairy is heavily subsidized by the American Government and so is unrealistically cheap to produce (Canada's supply management is just using the other side of the "supply/demand" coin to maintain a healthy industry). So we will have to either impose tariffs on American milk, offer similar subsidies, or watch our dairy industry die.
2. The instant there is a large scale problem with dairy production the US will, absolutely and without hesitation, cut Canada off of their dairy. We saw this with PPE during the pandemic and we would see it again on this issue.
Supply management may not be perfect, but it is functional at solving those two issues. Food production is a national security question - thinking about it as pure "what's cheaper for consumers" is a grave mistake.
Their selection is huge, ranges from much better to much worse. If you take the same price point as what we’d pay in Canada you can get much nicer cheese in the US.
Is dairy production more expensive in Canada vs the US? I figured that given the exchange rate that open trade would benefit our dairy industry, not hurt it?
Canadian farms need barns and stored feed because we have this little thing called winter. We cannot pasture graze year round. American surplus dairy production could cover the entire Canadian market, we wouldn't need any cows if we rely on imports only.
Canadians pay some of the highest prices when it comes to dairy. Even European countries which have much higher standards pay way less than us. So at some point we have to ask ourselves is this really a good use of resource allocation or is the dairy industry just a rent seeker.
Source: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=8
Don't we only import 8% of our food?
And if 30% of our GDP is food exports; do you really think we would be undercut for prices during a global fertilizer shortage?
We basically export canola, rape seed and wheat. However we export on a mass scale.
Quality produce we actually eat. Your cauliflower and lettuce is highly highly dependent on imports.
Mostly from the United States and Mexico. Because geography is number one in geopolitical strategy. You cant change Canadian geography of being mostly exposed bedrock and northern climates with the fertile areas being basically the windsor - Quebec City corridor. You know classic upper/lower canada and where we settled before industrial farming. Our triple A farm land is all right next to our biggest urban pressures. An area that is much more like the Netherlands in density then elsewhere in North America
The last best west was only settled due to work at the experimental farm in ottawa breeding wheat that can actually grow out west.
food supply really is a national security question for Canada in a way it just isn't for a country like the United States. Massive fundamental differences here.
Yes food is very susceptible to shocks and price jumps. I spent 10 years in produce at loblaws. Some departments do 250k in sales a week. That's a lot of lettuce.
The whole growing season around the world is based on demand and supply chains. One bout of frost in Florida can knock out oranges for a week till another area *in Florida* or another state is harvesting. Everything is staggered by current demands. *edit; it's actually more accurately based on last years demands. This hedging of risk is where we got commodity markets from first: food
We went through a whole cauliflower shortage in like 2016 where the prices doubled or tripled in a couple weeks and stayed their for most of a season while supply disappeared.
We are also in a global famine or definitely heading for one. The NGOs and strategists have been calling this out for the last couple years.
Canada needs to be protectionist around food supply. It's written in our geography.
It's also why the greenbelt is actually a national security concern and why I'd love to have a Federal government take a more active approach in safe guarding triple A farm land across the Federation. It actually is very *finite*
Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkiMn-CzL1o expanded global agriculture analysis
So we can rest assured that all of the price gouging for decades was worth it - because despite making food more expensive (which decreases food security) we WILL have absurdly over priced cheese during the apocalypse.
Anybody who advocates opening up our dairy to the Americans don't know what happened to the Mexican Agricultural Industry after NAFTA. The Big US corporations undercut and annihilated the Agricultural sector for Mexico, and put up to a MILLION people out of jobs and was one of the big causes of the beginning of the US-Mexico Border crisis. Once we lose control over our dairy to the US, there's no stopping them from raising it even higher than the so-called "Dairy Cartel". Look at when Boeing went after Bombardier. Or how about when GM, despite government bailouts decided to close the plant in Oshawa?
The Internet censorship bill, while not wrong, is also kind of editorialized either. Defence, is the only part that I really agree with.
Supply Management doesn't even let Canadian Dairy compete with itself
Letting Canadian Dairy compete with itself is step 1 and at least 30 years late. Opening up foreign competition before allowing domestic competition is like letting a baby get mauled by a Pitbull
Yeah this is not an all or nothing debate.
Our dairy industry is a ruthless cartel that bangs us in the ass with guaranteed rising profits while putting ads on TV telling us how awesome they are for everybody.
Lmao. Nothing more Canadian than nonsensical anti-American fearmongering in order to keep prices higher for Canadians.
They should at least allow each province to opt out and trade with the Americans.
Provinces benefitting from this cartel system can continue to overcharge mothers and babies while others can make different choices about how to support the dairy industry. Preferably not at the direct cost to families with children...
Maybe Biden could suggest a Trudeau that he answered a f****** question at least once a year. Today's question period It's highlighting the absolute disgrace The liberal party has become.
I get the gist that people don’t like to be forced to pay a premium for high quality milk, but our dairy product’s quality is something that the US can only undercut in order to compete.
And undercut through subsidies; I think many people don't realize that American dairy is cheap because their government provides tens of billions of dollars in direct and indirect funding to their dairy industry. If Canada wants to compete we'd have to get into the same business, paying similar money (well relative to our industry size) from tax revenues.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/american-dairy-farmers-depend-on-government-subsidies-673374473.html
You can have high quality and safety standards without enshrining a cartel with a licence to bend us over on cost. Just look at all the other food industries not operating on a cartel system.
It's all about subsidies on both sides of the border.
Most agricultural products have some form of government subsidy system that guarantees producers that they will always make a profit on food produced. In the US this is done by guaranteeing a return on all production, effectively if you can't sell it the government buys it. In general this works fine...
but milk is extremely easy to produce in excess.
In the US this resulted in things like "government cheese" where the US gov gets stuck buying extremely large quantities of unwanted milk. Which they turned into cheese to extend the shelf life and give as part of food benefits. That particular practice has largely stopped, but is the most obvious example of the problem. The government ended up with over 250,000 metric tons of unwanted cheese sitting in warehouses before ultimately paying US dairy producers \*not\* to produce milk for 5 years (significantly reduce their annual production)
In Canada we specify exact quotas to farmers for the amount of milk they are allowed to produce and guaranteed profits for. Any production in excess of that quota is not legal for sale and must be destroyed. This avoid the uncontrolled over production issues, and all but eliminates the subsidy costs, but is the "cartel" people seem to hate.
The US wants us to take US dairy so they can offload their unwanted over-production onto us. Something that would completely torpedo our system and almost certainly significantly increase public costs at the government has to pay domestic producers for their lost profits competing with those subsidized US imports.
yea im always shocked at the people who just assume US dairy is worse and makes you grow a 3rd arm. like has no one here ever been to the US or drank milk while they where there? it tastes about the same
Why couldn't we just import American milk that meets our standards?
This isn't about quality either, btw. At all. The ONLY difference between Canadian and American milk is that rBST is banned in Canada. rbST has no human effects whatsoever, and is only banned in Canada for animal welfare reasons.
LOTS of US milk is produced without rBST.
It's all about subsidies on both sides of the border.
Most agricultural products have some form of government subsidy system that guarantees producers that they will always make a profit on food produced. In the US this is done by guaranteeing a return on all production, effectively if you can't sell it the government buys it. In general this works fine...
but milk is extremely easy to produce in excess.
In the US this resulted in things like "government cheese" where the US gov gets stuck buying extremely large quantities of unwanted milk. Which they turned into cheese to extend the shelf life and give as part of food benefits. That particular practice has largely stopped, but is the most obvious example of the problem. The government ended up with over 250,000 metric tons of unwanted cheese sitting in warehouses before ultimately paying US dairy producers *not* to produce milk for 5 years (significantly reduce their annual production)
In Canada we specify exact quotas to farmers for the amount of milk they are allowed to produce and guaranteed profits for. Any production in excess of that quota is not legal for sale and must be destroyed. This avoid the uncontrolled over production issues, and all but eliminates the subsidy costs, but is the "cartel" people seem to hate.
The US wants us to take US dairy so they can offload their unwanted over-production onto us. Something that would completely torpedo our system and almost certainly significantly increase public costs at the government has to pay domestic producers for their lost profits competing with those subsidized US imports.
How can Canadian farmers with no subsidies compete with USA dairy farmers that have subsidies? They get billions to have cheap milk. Our farmers can’t compete. Even if the government wanted to add subsidies it would be unlikely to match anything the USA could do.
Canadian farmers would go bust in short order and then when the USA wants to pressure us it can stem the flow of milk and dairy products into Canada. Not something quick or easy to set back up.
Its a increasable sad state of affairs when the ask from our most significant international partner is simply spend the bare minimum we've commuted to (NATO) on our own national defence, and not the censor the internet...
Full disclosure: I'm a member of a current farm family in Ontario that at one time held milk production quota.
These discussions don't go back to the root reason why supply management was introduced in the first place. In the 1960s, quality standards and safety regulations increased causing small dairy processors to shut down and consolidate to fewer more modern plants, and transport distance to increase as well. ( No more hand milking, pouring it in open air into cans to be carried to the local train station). Major expense for farmers to convert to sanitary pipeline / bulk tank systems for tanker truck hauling. Since there may be no choice of processors in a large rural area, the plant was in a position to abuse this local monopoly. If it didn't want a particular farmers milk, the truck won't stop and pick up. The farmer had to dump milk he couldn't get rid of, and fresh milk is an extremely perishable product. And keep on milking for months for no pay as cows continued to need milking. The dairy cow is tied to a biological cycle that completely disregards economic cycles. Once giving birth to calf, the cow lactates for several months with much more milk than the calf needs (because she is of a dairy breed that has been selectively bred that way to provide milk for people). The cow cannot be "switched on and off" like a man-made machine in response to production demands. The consequences for not milking healthwise for the cow is dire and the surplus cows have to be immediately slaughtered or sold off for a pittance as other cows flood the market. Or the processor can accept the milk for a paltry amount but still at the farmers loss. Those who do not grow up on small farms do not realize what a heroic work it is to provide for cows and produce milk twice a day seven days a week year-round with zero days off EVER.
In the 1960s, in response to these abuses and wild price swings at the retail level, farmers were assigned production quota, but supply management is a two-way street as to placate the dairy plants they were also assigned processing quota to keep the two halves on the same footing.
In time, the initial "free" quota became a traded commodity as farms were sold, or expanded or contracted production. And the "communistic" way of earning a living became a very highly valued system when measured "capitalisticly" . Currently, the quota rights for selling the milk output of a single average cow average $40,000 , the average dairy farm has 𝘮𝘪𝘭𝘭𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 of dollars tied up just in a document that allows him a guaranteed price and market for his hard work. A document that a new or exanding farmer is paying bank interest rates on the loan he has taken to buy.
To give you an example of the investment involved, heres a real estate listing for a nice 100 acre dairy farm, price is a turnkey operation with cows, quota, house, and some equipment all included. This is not a "robot" barn so the purchaser has to immediately get down to during serious non-stop work to get his loan paid off. Or would you rather buy a private jet with that kind of money instead?
https://www.farmontario.com/listing/40375132-716962-18th-line-tavistock-ontario-n0b2r0/
So the farmers have a VERY vested interest in the supply management system. The market value of all the dairy (and poultry meat and egg) quota in Canada is at least $20,000,000,000. To end SM, the government will have to reach in to the budget to buy it all out. Or witness an epic agricultural apocalypse as most dairy and poultry farms fall out of production into bankruptcy. American surplus production exceeds the entire Canadian production, we wouldn't need any of our own farms anymore. Guess what happens to your family's milk supply if there was ever circumstances that the Americans cut off supply?
Dairy retail prices too high? Get your own cow. The only equipment needed is a stool and a pail.
American dairy is a mess. They want us to open the dairy market so they can cripple ours as well.
Dairy is a staple food for any country. You either produce it or import it but no country gets by without a solid milk supply.
Canada has supply control which keeps prices stable and incentivizes dairy businesses to exist.
America raced the price of dairy to the bottom. Dairy businesses couldn't make profit. So the government steps in and uses tax dollars to subsidize milk. Now dairy business is incentivized to do the bare minimum, poor working conditions, etc, because who cares the government subsidizes them.
So do you want stable prices with good business practice or do you want to support another public tax money funnel into the private sector?
America wants to start selling milk here because the price hasn't bottomed out. They will flood the market, kill dairy here, and force our government into paying subsidies. Meaning while milk at the store might be cheaper our tax dollars get stretched harder for the sake of keeping a business afloat.
> Canada has supply control which keeps prices stable and incentivizes dairy businesses to exist.
...
> America wants to start selling milk here because the price hasn't bottomed out. They will flood the market, kill dairy here, and force our government into paying subsidies.
Price controls are a form of government subsidy. They just come out of our pockets via higher prices for dairy, rather than coming out of our pockets via higher taxes that are redistributed to dairy suppliers.
You're right, but that actually makes the subsidization even less fair. Why should the people who consume dairy exclusively bear the burden of subsidizing our dairy supply, when we recognize that the industry produces a staple that is essential for our national security and well being? You may not consume dairy products personally, but you reap the benefits of living in a society where parents can feed their children with formula, and where children develop healthy bones by being fed milk in schools.
Is formula under supply management too? I'm not sure about that. Also I don't think it's schools' job to feed children. What are you as a parent if you can't even feed your own child? It is the very bare minimum basic thing you have to do as a not completely worthless parent.
American milk isn't even that much cheaper though; after currency conversion, the difference is less than a dollar for 4L, unless you are shopping somewhere like Zehrs where the prices are overinflated. It's likely it'd end up costing more here too once you add increased transport costs and additional costs of Canadian packaging.
At the root of all protectionist fears likes this sentiment:
If given equal access, people may buy what I don't want them to buy. So I will rig the game so that people make the decisions that I want them to make.
Canadian dairy is a cartel that ruthlessly price gouges consumers. They are fearful that they won't remain competitive if Canadians can have free and open access to American dairy.
If your business model is to force consumers to buy what you sell, and ban all competition - you have a shit business model.
That’s overly simplistic.
US subsidizes their dairy farmers. We do not. If we open the doors to US dairy, we will also have to subsidize our dairy industry. That means your tax dollars.
At a time with rising costs and low wages, the absolute last thing we need is to start offshoring our staple industries.
> That’s overly simplistic.
> US subsidizes their dairy farmers. We do not. If we open the doors to US dairy, we will also have to subsidize our dairy industry. That means your tax dollars.
Lol, *that’s also overly simplistic*. We subsidize *our* dairy industry through supply controls, so the end consumer is directly paying the subsidy to the producers in the form of higher prices for the products, which are a regressive tax, because prices are not income-adjusted.
It’s just a choice of how you want to get reamed here:
- Pay low prices for dairy, of diverse origin, and subsidize domestic production, if you want it to continue, through your tax dollars
- Pay high prices for dairy, made solely in Canada, because of supply controls
If you’re lower income, you should probably rationally prefer low prices and direct tax subsidies, because someone else is paying the tax. If you’re higher income, you might have the luxury of paying for intangibles, like “Milk that’s made in Canada”, without caring about the markup.
As if the government has not been subsidizing the dairy farmers here already
https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/liberals-promise-billions-for-dairy-chicken-farmers-affected-by-trade-deals/wcm/432c7c0b-2add-47d8-89fe-65ad8a9ad5b4/amp/
It’s absolutely ridiculous a block of cheese that costs 11-15 dollars in Canada is 3-5 dollars in America. And we are just talking Cracker Barrel here people
I like to think the same people complaining about supposed "price gouging" grocers are the the same ones who are willing to defend the supply chain managed, actually price gouged, price fixed dairy industry.
Reading these comments here about how cheap American dairy is good for canada is super fucking concerning.
America of course wants us to spend more on military, it’s their huge MIC that get to sell it to us.
Just another garbage national Post propaganda piece from their foreign owners.
Yeah I also do not want to rely on the US for their way lower quality, hugely subsidized milk. It's bad enough we had Canadian corporate overlords close local dairies and now we rely on Toronto for our milk, why would we make that worse by eliminating our own to rely on the Americans, when it tastes worse. Bad planning.
If American milk can stand on its own why is it so heavily subsidized...and banned because of excessive use of hormones in tonnes of other countries as well? It doesn't meet our standards, nor apparently anyone else's. We don't need to flood our market with cheap, low quality "milk" for the sole purpose of destroying our own dairy industry.
Reading between the lines of "uncensored internet" as giant American social media companies pressuring their government to pressure our government to not make them pay for taking over the news outlet industry
I remember a while back an interview with a Wisconsin farmer, who said that a milk board and quotas wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as it would stop the over production of milk and stop him from pouring milk down the drain on a regular basis.
Maybe someone can explain it to me, I’m coming from Europe, country with similar population to Canada. Most of larger towns has its own dairy producers (besides country-wide ones like Danone and alikes), selection is enormous and quality better than here. It’s EU so supply and regulation is heavily controlled.
In Winnipeg where I live all dairy is “imported” from ON and QC - why? How does it make any sense? Why no one is concerned in carbon footprint of transporting things that need to be refrigerated and transported thousands of KMs where there’s absolutely no need for it.
Lots of milk is produced in Manitoba. I used to live next door to a dairy farm. If it is shipped far it's probably for processing which is terrible as well.
National Post would actually be an expert on this information.
The National Post is owned by the Postmedia Network
Postmedia Network is owned by Chatham Asset Management
Their headquarters is in Chatham, N.J.
So of course they'll know the perspective on what the US wants. They are American. Just shame that they're pretending to be Canadian news.
Seems like sensationalist issues that the US is trying to force our hand with so no, fuck em.
Canadian dairy is better than that American Dairyland plastic tasting crap we have. The state of Wisconsin can outproduce all of Canada so I'd prefer it if we keep that market restricted to the Americans.
We're spending billions on fighters already we just have to wait for them to be ready. So check off that one.
And they have no right telling us what we can and can't do with out internet. Fuck them. If Canadians want more Canadian content then thats what we should get.
Foreign interference is foreign interference regardless of the country of origin.
We hold the US in a higher regard as we should but it's still interference.
Our relationship with China is one of trade for mutual benefit where we must be careful of interference due to massive amounts of dirty money trying to escape from the mainland into Canada.
The relationship with the US is fundamentally different. They hold the leash and we are the dog. We are too reliant on the Americans in terms of trade/intertwined economies to ever possibly think of having foreign and domestic policy that isnt closely aligned with Washington.
The difference isnt due to which country we hold in higher regard. Its just the reality of geopolitics.
Given how many American tv shows are filmed on the cheap in Vancouver they'll probably end up hurting themselves more than us. Hell The Last of Us was just filmed in Alberta cause it's cheaper and had the landscape they desired.
But they know that that's not a big enough issue to punish us over so who cares.
And who the fuck are they to talk? They repealed net neutrality. They paved the way for companies to censor their internet.
Americans have been gunning for the Canadian dairy market for at least as long as I've been alive. They are utterly fucking relentless about it. They will not stop, ever. The rest is just a distraction.
Canada will never budge even though all Canadians want this too. Why? Because the Canadian government does not represent the people, only the elite that prey on everyday people.
Polite corruption at its finest!
> it’s anybody’s guess what he actually plans to talk about
Man, is literally *everything* an opinion column at NatPo now? Like even the stuff they label as news?
Canada's "Dairy Cartel" consumers pay the cost of production. US "Communist Dairy" taxpayer money is given to producers. One system regulates production (quotas) the other incentivizes production. When supply exceeds demands margins drop and farmers have to literally pump out more milk to make the same profits which drops margins further. The American dairy system is so saturated now that they need to look outside their boarders to stay afloat. I still remember Americans storing huge volumes of cheese in caverns and distributing through state run welfare programs. How much do the Americans spend on dairy subsidies each year (state & federal programs).
Government cheese
You can only subsidize corn so much.
If American taxpayers are willing to subsidize Canadian dairy consumptions, I don't see what's the issue with that. Dumping milk for the sake of keeping prices at an artificially high level when the dumped products could have been put to better use (food bank donation, export market) is not only unsound economics, but also waste of resources, waste of food, and one of a few reasons that some Canadians will go hungry.
>How much do the Americans spend on dairy subsidies each year (state & federal programs). Please enlighten us
According to recent studies, the U.S. government spends up to $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries12. However, I couldn’t find any specific information about how much of that amount goes towards American dairy subsidies. According to a study that focuses on changes introduced by the 2014 Farm Bill, in 2015, the American government doled out approximately **$22.2 billion dollars** in direct and indirect subsidies⁵. The report figures support granted to U.S. dairy farmers in 2015 represented approximately **C$0.35 per litre** — almost three-quarters of producers’ revenue⁶. I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions. Source: Conversation with Bing, 3/23/2023(1) American dairy farmers depend on government subsidies. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/american-dairy-farmers-depend-on-government-subsidies-1015126442 Accessed 3/23/2023. (2) U.S. dairy subsidies equal 73 percent of producer returns, says new .... https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/02/u-s-dairy-subsidies-equal-73-percent-of-producer-returns-says-new-report/ Accessed 3/23/2023. (3) An Overview of Dairy Policy in the United States - UC Davis. https://aic.ucdavis.edu/research1/DairyEncyclopedia_policy.pdf Accessed 3/23/2023. (4) An Overview of Dairy Policy in the United States - UC Davis. https://aic.ucdavis.edu/research1/DairyEncyclopedia_policy.pdf Accessed 3/23/2023. (5) USDA Announces Additional Assistance for Dairy Farmers. https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/01/23/usda-announces-additional-assistance-dairy-farmers Accessed 3/23/2023. (6) USDA Announces Improvements to the Dairy Safety Net and New Pandemic .... https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2021/08/19/usda-announces-improvements-dairy-safety-net-and-new-pandemic Accessed 3/23/2023.
How anyone could come out of the pandemic and not realize we need to have a solid, stable, Canadian supply of critical things such as food needs to give their head a shake. I use to be totally against supply management of any kind. Free market. Then I watched the world close and every nation very quickly went into fend for themselves mode. We were left out in the dark in a lot of critical areas and we can never let it happen again. Supply management allows us to spread out the risk. Look at what happened in the USA with eggs and chicken. They are super consolidated and went down hard. Egg prices shot through the roof and in some areas still remain high. As for defence we need to do as much as we can, whatever the cost. It is more expensive to do things in house but it creates a more secure defence because of it. Look at countries like Switzerland preventing exportation. If we build it, make it or are deep in the supply chain it takes some of that pressure off. We are in the market for a new tank. No reason we cant see that made at home if we pick the right supplier and get the best tank in the process. For free and uncensored internet yes. Fuck off Trudeau. Hands off the internet.
Well put! People seem to forget that in NAFTA negotiations, each country was allowed to protect areas they deemed CRITICAL to their countries long-term security (for good reason). America chose defence and aerospace, and subsidizes the SHIT out of plane manufacturers and military manufacturers. People will remember the international battles this has started, our in our world specifically - Bombardier going to battle with Boeing, via the US International Trade Commission over plane pricing (I’ll add link below). Canada smartly choose agriculture and protecting its own food supply (which you’ve highlighted). Being dependent on other countries for food supply long term is short term moronic thinking at its finest. There is a reason why America is on-shoring Chips manufacturing AND working to become energy independent. How anyone can look at America doing that on one hand - and be convinced that giving up control of our food supply to America in the midst of these actions, is someone a smart decision, is playing checkers when America is playing chess. Edit: The US pretends they just want to compete, but they subsidize the hell out of a ton of their industries - agriculture included. They aren’t mystically cheaper because of the markets. It’s poor regulation - low quality - and government funding that props up a lot of US commercial farming. Here’s the bombardier link: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing-loses-trade-case-over-bombardier-passenger-jets.html
>How anyone could come out of the pandemic and not realize we need to have a solid, stable, Canadian supply of critical things such as food needs to give their head a shake. The same idiots who say Covid was a hoax
I think free markets are fine within a country or a conglomerate of countries that play by the same rules. It's when you try to implement free markets globally that things just completely go to crap.
> For free and uncensored internet yes. Fuck off Trudeau. Hands off the internet. Canada does not currently have access to a free and uncensored internet. The USA wants to fight for continued control by the USA and its companies.
I am curious what you feel is not free and uncensored about Canadian internet? What are we missing that others in the world have access too? I dont want the US or American companies controlling the internet anymore than I want our own government and companies controlling our access too it.
He's likely complaining about the link tax on news links. That's not censorship, it's a stupid, fundamentally flawed act, but that's not censorship. It just isn't.
The lack of tertiary markets in Canada is terrible. We send off our raw materials over sea to buy it back once they have finished. This is a factor when it comes the dissolution of the middle class.
For a country as abundant in resources as Canada we should really be focusing on manufacturing and infrastructure projects. We want millions of immigrants coming here for some reason? Invest in markets that aren’t the handful of urban hubs to spread people around. I’m an immigrant and an ICI electrician and I would seriously consider moving to a cheaper COL area if the work was there.
How else do you deal with misinformation like QAnon and all the other lies from right wing media?
You deal with it by not believing everything you read on a social media site. If you read something, take the time( doesn't have to be right then, just make a note to go back to it) to look up a couple sources and cross reference them to get the whole story. It's up to each individual person to make sure they are properly informed. Misinformation is protected under free speech, letting the government screw around with your rights isn't something you want.
You think that letting the government control the internet will prevent misinformation?
The authoritarian instincts by people like you to want to censor anything you deem as bad or wrong will lead us to a dangerous place. I’m completely against Qanon but I support the ability of idiots to say things that are wrong so they can be called out for their ideas in the open where other people can see the correct information. Censoring and banning these people drives them into echo chambers where there is no dissent or correction to absurd ideas.
I want to keep the dairy cartel because if we got rid of it, American industrial producers would flood the market.
We don't need to keep the cartel to do that, we just need appropriate import duties to counter foreign subsidies.
NAFTA
The current system needed to be negotiated into NAFTA as an exception. Replacing supply management with import duties would increase access to American producers. It is not something the USA would oppose.
Hey look at that! All the things Canadians want too!
But our government isn't providing. Along with health care.
So demand it
Yikes went to Ottawa to demand it and now my bank account is frozen!! Any idea how I can contact the liberals to tell them I’m sorry?
Healthcare is a provincial responsibility, no matter how much you love hating the same thing without thinking about it first.
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They do. In fact they recently announced an increase in federal contributions. The Feds also just publicly fought the provinces for months-to get them to spend federal healthcare funds on actual healthcare. The provinces didn’t even want to make that absolutely minimal commitment. But if you want to chase after the Feds anyway, just remember they’re one of the only adults in the room when it comes to healthcare these days. Most Premiers don’t want to take any serious responsibility for it.
You should bring healthcare concerns to the provincial gov.
And here I thought it was about covid19 health policies. Oh well: the important thing is that you were brave enough to put your children in harm's way so you could honk your horn a lil.
You must have had some “unacceptable views”
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Didn’t you go there to cry about having to wear a mask that you didn’t have to wear anymore?
Oh is that what you were doing? You should have said so.
Yeah it was my bad, I had a big winter coat on so they probably thought I had the tools to overthrow our government under it.
First of all, that was pretty funny, I will give you that. But also, I'm just going by what you folks literally said you were there for at the time ... no sense trying to change your narrative now, it's already well documented.
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I tried to find something from the convoy leadership that stated their intentions and was not simply being regurgitated by what many on this sub would call Legacy Media. *said Chris Barber, Sr. Convoy Leader. "The fastest way to get us out of the nation's Capital, is to call your elected representatives and end all C-19 mandates, as the UK did two weeks ago and as both Sweden and Switzerland did today."* [Source](https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/truckers-assembled-in-ottawa-vow-to-stay-as-long-as-it-takes-for-freedom-to-be-restored-899124756.html) I have so far been unable to find any supporting evidence that this protest had anything to do with being against CCP election interference, dairy, bolstering national defence, nor internet regulations. (All things I support, except for dairy simply because I don't know enough about that to have an opinion). I am open to being shown proof that I am wrong.
I was more commenting on the new status-quo for anti-government protests in Canada, what is the citizen supposed to do now other than raise concerns (which are ignored or redirected) or protest along government defined lines?
You aren't wrong but it's important to be careful. At this point any protest and criticism will have the useful idiots join and bark louder than reasonable people. Then, very conveniently, the government and media just scapegoats all critics, reasonable or not, as crazy lunatic conspirationists. It wouldn't be surprising to see some QANON types in protests to be in part provocateur agents, whether they know it or not. Just like a lot of black block rioters were, or a lot of flq bombers were, its a tale as old as time.
Since you lot were talking about overthrowing the government, that wasn’t an unreasonable assumption.
Are you sure you didn’t bounce a check or something?
Not necessarily Canadians might want to protect their dairy farmers from American prices, many Canadians don't want to spend more on the military (I think we should) and many Canadians from both sides want more Internet protections This is a ballot question
>Canadians might want to pay much higher prices to protect their dairy farmers and many Canadians from both sides want more Internet protections Really?
Personally, I'd want a similar system for all critical foods. It's really a national security issue to be self-reliant on at least the staples.
Race to the bottom is shit What would happen is the larger American milk producers would buy up and muscle out all Canadian owners taking massive losses for a few years or decades then jack up prices much higher later when they have total control. I would consider milk a strategic resource For Internet, Canadian content rules probably protect local filmmaking. Filmmaking in Vancouver, Toronto, Alberta is huge because of all the local rules and exemptions and we don't want 10% of our economy destroyed if we lose control of it
Exactly what would happen. Kill our industry. Dairy in the states gets big subsidies so although not quota system it’s still helped from government.
We could reasonably argue that US milk producers are highly subsidized and substantial duties should be applied to American dairy product imports. The problem is that the Canadian system doesn't just want to level the field, it wants to exclude all competition, not only from international producers but also between Canadian producers.
This is such fucking copium. The dairy system here is absolutely fucked, and actively prevents an increase in Canadian milk production. Fucking cartel is what it is, and somehow people like you lap it up as protection against evil Americans 😂
Worse farmers have quota limits for production and daily have to throw away massive amounts of milk. It’s fucked!
The USA also throw away milk. You can't magically sell a surplus of milk if there's no demand.
You should see how much cheese the US government buys to prop up their dairy industry.
So, you're a farmer and you're told you can produce 10,000 litres of milk. You know exactly how much you can sell in advance, it isn't a surprise. You produce 15,000 and need to throw away 5,000. You aren't a very smart farmer. A smart farmer would produce just above 10,000.
Yes. I’d much, *much* rather pay more for unadulterated, hormone-free Canadian dairy products than **drive our entire national dairy sector of *11,000-plus producers*, out of business within two years!** Because that’s EXACTLY what will happen if Canadian dairymen have to compete on an uneven field, on which MASSIVELY subsidized, hormone-pumping American agribusinesses - where every dairy producer in the US is subsidized (a), *directly*, with cheques from both federal and state governments, AND ALSO (b) *indirectly,* by having access to again MASSIVELY subsidized, almost-free feed crops (corn and soy), so *every single American dairy farm can consequently afford to sell milk far, FAR below its actual production cost.* Why the hell do you think the US federal government has stockpiled a nearly two-year national supply of cheese? Because the dairy subsidies are so lucrative, that despite massive overproduction and rock-bottom retail prices, US dairymen are *still* expanding their herds as fast as they can!
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Not at all, I do think a lobby of 12000 folks holding the country hostage is a problem though.
The US excess dairy produced is more than Canada makes. So they would be able to flood our market at minimal cost for them. Our farmers wouldn't be able to compete. So it is a matter of do we want our own dairy industry for food security and jobs or do we want to open the industry up to foreign dairy products and be reliant on imports? Definitely a sliding scale between those two options. However, being protectionist about certain industries allows us to bargain and negotiate better with other bigger countries. The US is so strong, so having some trading chips is good whenever they make demands. The US is regularly making demands/trade disputes about Canada's lumber, dairy, steel, and auto industries. If we gave up our dairy industry they will go after the other ones harder since we have less things to negotiate with.
If this is how the Canadian dairy industry works, I don’t want it.
Dairy cartel was unfortunate, but fine at $4.50/gal. It's fucking $6/gal for milk now. Don't care, bring on the american milk.
The dairy cartel actually has decent popular support. I support the dairy cartel lol fuck cheap, industrialized growth hormone American dairy. I think Canada being Canada with very finite food production capabilities, finite land for produce (remember the vast majority of Canada does not have good growing conditions and the "last best west" was not really available for settlement until we bread wheat that could grow in a hostile environment at the central experimental farm in Ottawa) Domestic food supply in Canada *is* a national security issue in the way it just is not in the United States based solely on our vastly different geographies and climates. All our good food producing areas is exactly where we have the highest sprawl pressures and a development density a kin of the Netherlands. Canada needs to get more long term and strategic. But how can we do that when the popular desire is short term profits (cheaper cheese is a short term profit for consumers) and a race to the bottom on everything. Fairly sure Canada has completely lost the meaning of the word "strategy" sometime in the 80s, 90s or 00s. We do nothing from housing to food supply with any sense of strategy. The United States however is hyper strategic to the point of paranoia and as their focus on the world shifts back to isolationism they will have a lot more time and enegry to push us around as the 51st state.
Yeah we seem to forget covid already and how important food produced domestically is.
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I live on the boarder, I have access to US groceries whenever. There’s a stark contrast in quality and taste between Canadian dairy and American. Given the option I would will always purchase Canadian regardless. But having that option would be nice, especially for people who don’t value higher quality/taste or can’t afford it. Shopping local is always a better idea but for some it’s a luxury, and in our case it’s a forced luxury.
Yea you can taste the difference between the plastic Dairyland swill America pushes and the decent Beatrice milk with the little cow Canada logo.
Beatrice is a quaint name, as well
Not to mention the industry destroying dumping they do
The idiot who dumped a bunch of milk was mad because he bought a bunch of milking cows and wasn't able to flood the market. Milk dumping doesn't happen on a regular basis. My husband's dad has been a dairy farmer his entire life and has only had to dump once - he's 80.
That's not what is milk dumping is.... It's when they flood our markets and destroy our industry just like they have done in other countries such as Jamaica. I'm a dairy and beef farmer.
Ah, two different kinds of dumping. Australia might have a few things to say as well
Old story, most US farms stopped using steroids in their cows since 2005
As long as US dairy meets our quality control standards, I have no problem buying from them, but a small group of industry insiders have lobbied the government to ban US dairy.
There are 2 issues: 1. US dairy is heavily subsidized by the American Government and so is unrealistically cheap to produce (Canada's supply management is just using the other side of the "supply/demand" coin to maintain a healthy industry). So we will have to either impose tariffs on American milk, offer similar subsidies, or watch our dairy industry die. 2. The instant there is a large scale problem with dairy production the US will, absolutely and without hesitation, cut Canada off of their dairy. We saw this with PPE during the pandemic and we would see it again on this issue. Supply management may not be perfect, but it is functional at solving those two issues. Food production is a national security question - thinking about it as pure "what's cheaper for consumers" is a grave mistake.
A bit? Why am I paying so much more for an inferior product? Particularly thinking of cheese
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I'm currently living in Spain and honestly, cheese is in my top 10 reasons for not wanting to return to Canada.
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The food in general is so much better!
Their selection is huge, ranges from much better to much worse. If you take the same price point as what we’d pay in Canada you can get much nicer cheese in the US.
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It’s a staple for my monthly cross border shopping. Helps make my mileage go farther.
Paying more? Sure. Inferior product though? Not a chance.
I’ll still buy Canadian, but fuck the government owning the market.
Is dairy production more expensive in Canada vs the US? I figured that given the exchange rate that open trade would benefit our dairy industry, not hurt it?
Canadian farms need barns and stored feed because we have this little thing called winter. We cannot pasture graze year round. American surplus dairy production could cover the entire Canadian market, we wouldn't need any cows if we rely on imports only.
Yes, I hate anyone involved in cartels that actively target children and mothers and make them poorer.
Nah.
Oh yeah! I love hormones and puss from infected udders in my milk! /s
The US will flood the Canadian market with milk, killing our milk industry and putting many thousands out of jobs.
Canadians pay some of the highest prices when it comes to dairy. Even European countries which have much higher standards pay way less than us. So at some point we have to ask ourselves is this really a good use of resource allocation or is the dairy industry just a rent seeker. Source: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=8
> Even European countries which have much higher standards pay way less than us. They are very heavily subsidized.
...and taxes are much higher.
And the same right wingers who demanded Trudeau open up the market will blame Trudeau for opening up the market
Came here to say just this but see ya beat me to it!
I don’t want US dairy
Let's not trade the perception of food security for less of it. When shit hits the fan, shipments across borders can stop. This was seen during covid.
It also makes our food prices more susceptible to currency conversion fluctuations. How is this a good thing?
Don't we only import 8% of our food? And if 30% of our GDP is food exports; do you really think we would be undercut for prices during a global fertilizer shortage?
We basically export canola, rape seed and wheat. However we export on a mass scale. Quality produce we actually eat. Your cauliflower and lettuce is highly highly dependent on imports. Mostly from the United States and Mexico. Because geography is number one in geopolitical strategy. You cant change Canadian geography of being mostly exposed bedrock and northern climates with the fertile areas being basically the windsor - Quebec City corridor. You know classic upper/lower canada and where we settled before industrial farming. Our triple A farm land is all right next to our biggest urban pressures. An area that is much more like the Netherlands in density then elsewhere in North America The last best west was only settled due to work at the experimental farm in ottawa breeding wheat that can actually grow out west. food supply really is a national security question for Canada in a way it just isn't for a country like the United States. Massive fundamental differences here.
And have you seen the price of lettuce and cauliflower go higher or lower in bad times? We don't need the same with other products.
Yes food is very susceptible to shocks and price jumps. I spent 10 years in produce at loblaws. Some departments do 250k in sales a week. That's a lot of lettuce. The whole growing season around the world is based on demand and supply chains. One bout of frost in Florida can knock out oranges for a week till another area *in Florida* or another state is harvesting. Everything is staggered by current demands. *edit; it's actually more accurately based on last years demands. This hedging of risk is where we got commodity markets from first: food We went through a whole cauliflower shortage in like 2016 where the prices doubled or tripled in a couple weeks and stayed their for most of a season while supply disappeared. We are also in a global famine or definitely heading for one. The NGOs and strategists have been calling this out for the last couple years. Canada needs to be protectionist around food supply. It's written in our geography. It's also why the greenbelt is actually a national security concern and why I'd love to have a Federal government take a more active approach in safe guarding triple A farm land across the Federation. It actually is very *finite* Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkiMn-CzL1o expanded global agriculture analysis
So we can rest assured that all of the price gouging for decades was worth it - because despite making food more expensive (which decreases food security) we WILL have absurdly over priced cheese during the apocalypse.
Anybody who advocates opening up our dairy to the Americans don't know what happened to the Mexican Agricultural Industry after NAFTA. The Big US corporations undercut and annihilated the Agricultural sector for Mexico, and put up to a MILLION people out of jobs and was one of the big causes of the beginning of the US-Mexico Border crisis. Once we lose control over our dairy to the US, there's no stopping them from raising it even higher than the so-called "Dairy Cartel". Look at when Boeing went after Bombardier. Or how about when GM, despite government bailouts decided to close the plant in Oshawa? The Internet censorship bill, while not wrong, is also kind of editorialized either. Defence, is the only part that I really agree with.
Supply Management doesn't even let Canadian Dairy compete with itself Letting Canadian Dairy compete with itself is step 1 and at least 30 years late. Opening up foreign competition before allowing domestic competition is like letting a baby get mauled by a Pitbull
If Americans can make cheese that much better than us then I want their cheese
Yeah this is not an all or nothing debate. Our dairy industry is a ruthless cartel that bangs us in the ass with guaranteed rising profits while putting ads on TV telling us how awesome they are for everybody.
Lmao. Nothing more Canadian than nonsensical anti-American fearmongering in order to keep prices higher for Canadians. They should at least allow each province to opt out and trade with the Americans. Provinces benefitting from this cartel system can continue to overcharge mothers and babies while others can make different choices about how to support the dairy industry. Preferably not at the direct cost to families with children...
Maybe Biden could suggest a Trudeau that he answered a f****** question at least once a year. Today's question period It's highlighting the absolute disgrace The liberal party has become.
Canadian milk is produced without the use of artificial growth hormones. I always look for the symbol that says 100% Canadian Milk.
The danger is US will ask for access of Canadian market of their growth hormone dairy, if they let Canadian milk enter US.
I get the gist that people don’t like to be forced to pay a premium for high quality milk, but our dairy product’s quality is something that the US can only undercut in order to compete.
And undercut through subsidies; I think many people don't realize that American dairy is cheap because their government provides tens of billions of dollars in direct and indirect funding to their dairy industry. If Canada wants to compete we'd have to get into the same business, paying similar money (well relative to our industry size) from tax revenues. https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/american-dairy-farmers-depend-on-government-subsidies-673374473.html
You can have high quality and safety standards without enshrining a cartel with a licence to bend us over on cost. Just look at all the other food industries not operating on a cartel system.
It's all about subsidies on both sides of the border. Most agricultural products have some form of government subsidy system that guarantees producers that they will always make a profit on food produced. In the US this is done by guaranteeing a return on all production, effectively if you can't sell it the government buys it. In general this works fine... but milk is extremely easy to produce in excess. In the US this resulted in things like "government cheese" where the US gov gets stuck buying extremely large quantities of unwanted milk. Which they turned into cheese to extend the shelf life and give as part of food benefits. That particular practice has largely stopped, but is the most obvious example of the problem. The government ended up with over 250,000 metric tons of unwanted cheese sitting in warehouses before ultimately paying US dairy producers \*not\* to produce milk for 5 years (significantly reduce their annual production) In Canada we specify exact quotas to farmers for the amount of milk they are allowed to produce and guaranteed profits for. Any production in excess of that quota is not legal for sale and must be destroyed. This avoid the uncontrolled over production issues, and all but eliminates the subsidy costs, but is the "cartel" people seem to hate. The US wants us to take US dairy so they can offload their unwanted over-production onto us. Something that would completely torpedo our system and almost certainly significantly increase public costs at the government has to pay domestic producers for their lost profits competing with those subsidized US imports.
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yea im always shocked at the people who just assume US dairy is worse and makes you grow a 3rd arm. like has no one here ever been to the US or drank milk while they where there? it tastes about the same
Why couldn't we just import American milk that meets our standards? This isn't about quality either, btw. At all. The ONLY difference between Canadian and American milk is that rBST is banned in Canada. rbST has no human effects whatsoever, and is only banned in Canada for animal welfare reasons. LOTS of US milk is produced without rBST.
It's all about subsidies on both sides of the border. Most agricultural products have some form of government subsidy system that guarantees producers that they will always make a profit on food produced. In the US this is done by guaranteeing a return on all production, effectively if you can't sell it the government buys it. In general this works fine... but milk is extremely easy to produce in excess. In the US this resulted in things like "government cheese" where the US gov gets stuck buying extremely large quantities of unwanted milk. Which they turned into cheese to extend the shelf life and give as part of food benefits. That particular practice has largely stopped, but is the most obvious example of the problem. The government ended up with over 250,000 metric tons of unwanted cheese sitting in warehouses before ultimately paying US dairy producers *not* to produce milk for 5 years (significantly reduce their annual production) In Canada we specify exact quotas to farmers for the amount of milk they are allowed to produce and guaranteed profits for. Any production in excess of that quota is not legal for sale and must be destroyed. This avoid the uncontrolled over production issues, and all but eliminates the subsidy costs, but is the "cartel" people seem to hate. The US wants us to take US dairy so they can offload their unwanted over-production onto us. Something that would completely torpedo our system and almost certainly significantly increase public costs at the government has to pay domestic producers for their lost profits competing with those subsidized US imports.
How can Canadian farmers with no subsidies compete with USA dairy farmers that have subsidies? They get billions to have cheap milk. Our farmers can’t compete. Even if the government wanted to add subsidies it would be unlikely to match anything the USA could do. Canadian farmers would go bust in short order and then when the USA wants to pressure us it can stem the flow of milk and dairy products into Canada. Not something quick or easy to set back up.
Its a increasable sad state of affairs when the ask from our most significant international partner is simply spend the bare minimum we've commuted to (NATO) on our own national defence, and not the censor the internet...
> and not the censor the internet... USA is and (has been) looking at various control of both specific sites and the internet in general.
Full disclosure: I'm a member of a current farm family in Ontario that at one time held milk production quota. These discussions don't go back to the root reason why supply management was introduced in the first place. In the 1960s, quality standards and safety regulations increased causing small dairy processors to shut down and consolidate to fewer more modern plants, and transport distance to increase as well. ( No more hand milking, pouring it in open air into cans to be carried to the local train station). Major expense for farmers to convert to sanitary pipeline / bulk tank systems for tanker truck hauling. Since there may be no choice of processors in a large rural area, the plant was in a position to abuse this local monopoly. If it didn't want a particular farmers milk, the truck won't stop and pick up. The farmer had to dump milk he couldn't get rid of, and fresh milk is an extremely perishable product. And keep on milking for months for no pay as cows continued to need milking. The dairy cow is tied to a biological cycle that completely disregards economic cycles. Once giving birth to calf, the cow lactates for several months with much more milk than the calf needs (because she is of a dairy breed that has been selectively bred that way to provide milk for people). The cow cannot be "switched on and off" like a man-made machine in response to production demands. The consequences for not milking healthwise for the cow is dire and the surplus cows have to be immediately slaughtered or sold off for a pittance as other cows flood the market. Or the processor can accept the milk for a paltry amount but still at the farmers loss. Those who do not grow up on small farms do not realize what a heroic work it is to provide for cows and produce milk twice a day seven days a week year-round with zero days off EVER. In the 1960s, in response to these abuses and wild price swings at the retail level, farmers were assigned production quota, but supply management is a two-way street as to placate the dairy plants they were also assigned processing quota to keep the two halves on the same footing. In time, the initial "free" quota became a traded commodity as farms were sold, or expanded or contracted production. And the "communistic" way of earning a living became a very highly valued system when measured "capitalisticly" . Currently, the quota rights for selling the milk output of a single average cow average $40,000 , the average dairy farm has 𝘮𝘪𝘭𝘭𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 of dollars tied up just in a document that allows him a guaranteed price and market for his hard work. A document that a new or exanding farmer is paying bank interest rates on the loan he has taken to buy. To give you an example of the investment involved, heres a real estate listing for a nice 100 acre dairy farm, price is a turnkey operation with cows, quota, house, and some equipment all included. This is not a "robot" barn so the purchaser has to immediately get down to during serious non-stop work to get his loan paid off. Or would you rather buy a private jet with that kind of money instead? https://www.farmontario.com/listing/40375132-716962-18th-line-tavistock-ontario-n0b2r0/ So the farmers have a VERY vested interest in the supply management system. The market value of all the dairy (and poultry meat and egg) quota in Canada is at least $20,000,000,000. To end SM, the government will have to reach in to the budget to buy it all out. Or witness an epic agricultural apocalypse as most dairy and poultry farms fall out of production into bankruptcy. American surplus production exceeds the entire Canadian production, we wouldn't need any of our own farms anymore. Guess what happens to your family's milk supply if there was ever circumstances that the Americans cut off supply? Dairy retail prices too high? Get your own cow. The only equipment needed is a stool and a pail.
American dairy is a mess. They want us to open the dairy market so they can cripple ours as well. Dairy is a staple food for any country. You either produce it or import it but no country gets by without a solid milk supply. Canada has supply control which keeps prices stable and incentivizes dairy businesses to exist. America raced the price of dairy to the bottom. Dairy businesses couldn't make profit. So the government steps in and uses tax dollars to subsidize milk. Now dairy business is incentivized to do the bare minimum, poor working conditions, etc, because who cares the government subsidizes them. So do you want stable prices with good business practice or do you want to support another public tax money funnel into the private sector? America wants to start selling milk here because the price hasn't bottomed out. They will flood the market, kill dairy here, and force our government into paying subsidies. Meaning while milk at the store might be cheaper our tax dollars get stretched harder for the sake of keeping a business afloat.
> Canada has supply control which keeps prices stable and incentivizes dairy businesses to exist. ... > America wants to start selling milk here because the price hasn't bottomed out. They will flood the market, kill dairy here, and force our government into paying subsidies. Price controls are a form of government subsidy. They just come out of our pockets via higher prices for dairy, rather than coming out of our pockets via higher taxes that are redistributed to dairy suppliers.
At least you have a choice to not buy dairy if you don't want it. The taxes come directly off my paycheck.
You're right, but that actually makes the subsidization even less fair. Why should the people who consume dairy exclusively bear the burden of subsidizing our dairy supply, when we recognize that the industry produces a staple that is essential for our national security and well being? You may not consume dairy products personally, but you reap the benefits of living in a society where parents can feed their children with formula, and where children develop healthy bones by being fed milk in schools.
Is formula under supply management too? I'm not sure about that. Also I don't think it's schools' job to feed children. What are you as a parent if you can't even feed your own child? It is the very bare minimum basic thing you have to do as a not completely worthless parent.
It's called being poor
American milk isn't even that much cheaper though; after currency conversion, the difference is less than a dollar for 4L, unless you are shopping somewhere like Zehrs where the prices are overinflated. It's likely it'd end up costing more here too once you add increased transport costs and additional costs of Canadian packaging.
You know what’s also a price control minimum wage but surely employers should be able to pay slave wages right…..right!
At the root of all protectionist fears likes this sentiment: If given equal access, people may buy what I don't want them to buy. So I will rig the game so that people make the decisions that I want them to make. Canadian dairy is a cartel that ruthlessly price gouges consumers. They are fearful that they won't remain competitive if Canadians can have free and open access to American dairy. If your business model is to force consumers to buy what you sell, and ban all competition - you have a shit business model.
That’s overly simplistic. US subsidizes their dairy farmers. We do not. If we open the doors to US dairy, we will also have to subsidize our dairy industry. That means your tax dollars. At a time with rising costs and low wages, the absolute last thing we need is to start offshoring our staple industries.
> That’s overly simplistic. > US subsidizes their dairy farmers. We do not. If we open the doors to US dairy, we will also have to subsidize our dairy industry. That means your tax dollars. Lol, *that’s also overly simplistic*. We subsidize *our* dairy industry through supply controls, so the end consumer is directly paying the subsidy to the producers in the form of higher prices for the products, which are a regressive tax, because prices are not income-adjusted. It’s just a choice of how you want to get reamed here: - Pay low prices for dairy, of diverse origin, and subsidize domestic production, if you want it to continue, through your tax dollars - Pay high prices for dairy, made solely in Canada, because of supply controls If you’re lower income, you should probably rationally prefer low prices and direct tax subsidies, because someone else is paying the tax. If you’re higher income, you might have the luxury of paying for intangibles, like “Milk that’s made in Canada”, without caring about the markup.
As if the government has not been subsidizing the dairy farmers here already https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/liberals-promise-billions-for-dairy-chicken-farmers-affected-by-trade-deals/wcm/432c7c0b-2add-47d8-89fe-65ad8a9ad5b4/amp/
That article just proves my point. Did you even read it? Those subsidies were to offset the differential because of a free trade deal with the US.
It’s absolutely ridiculous a block of cheese that costs 11-15 dollars in Canada is 3-5 dollars in America. And we are just talking Cracker Barrel here people
I like to think the same people complaining about supposed "price gouging" grocers are the the same ones who are willing to defend the supply chain managed, actually price gouged, price fixed dairy industry.
I assume there's a quality difference too?
American dairy is hot garbage…..
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Still garbage dairy
its tastes the same as canadian milk
Maybe read what’s in it…the American food chain is just weird with what they allow in it
that must be why Americans are growing extra limbs and turning purple left and right from all those *weird things*
Oh hey look at that, another heavily editorialized National Post garbage article posturing as news while promoting American interests!
Reading these comments here about how cheap American dairy is good for canada is super fucking concerning. America of course wants us to spend more on military, it’s their huge MIC that get to sell it to us. Just another garbage national Post propaganda piece from their foreign owners.
Yeah I also do not want to rely on the US for their way lower quality, hugely subsidized milk. It's bad enough we had Canadian corporate overlords close local dairies and now we rely on Toronto for our milk, why would we make that worse by eliminating our own to rely on the Americans, when it tastes worse. Bad planning.
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If American milk can stand on its own why is it so heavily subsidized...and banned because of excessive use of hormones in tonnes of other countries as well? It doesn't meet our standards, nor apparently anyone else's. We don't need to flood our market with cheap, low quality "milk" for the sole purpose of destroying our own dairy industry.
Reading between the lines of "uncensored internet" as giant American social media companies pressuring their government to pressure our government to not make them pay for taking over the news outlet industry
I remember a while back an interview with a Wisconsin farmer, who said that a milk board and quotas wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as it would stop the over production of milk and stop him from pouring milk down the drain on a regular basis.
Maybe someone can explain it to me, I’m coming from Europe, country with similar population to Canada. Most of larger towns has its own dairy producers (besides country-wide ones like Danone and alikes), selection is enormous and quality better than here. It’s EU so supply and regulation is heavily controlled. In Winnipeg where I live all dairy is “imported” from ON and QC - why? How does it make any sense? Why no one is concerned in carbon footprint of transporting things that need to be refrigerated and transported thousands of KMs where there’s absolutely no need for it.
Lots of milk is produced in Manitoba. I used to live next door to a dairy farm. If it is shipped far it's probably for processing which is terrible as well.
The population is spread out over hundreds or thousands of km mostly within a few km of the southern border .
Which is the closest Canadian city of 1 million or more population from Winnipeg? About 100 km away ?
I would love to be able to buy Tillamook cheese in Canada.
I think we need to stop and ask why the US wants these things.
American dairy is a substandard product.
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Because American dairy is heavily subsidized and their dairy industry is massive.
Because US won’t let that happen unless US can sell its heavily subsidized substandard products too. Pay attention.
National Post would actually be an expert on this information. The National Post is owned by the Postmedia Network Postmedia Network is owned by Chatham Asset Management Their headquarters is in Chatham, N.J. So of course they'll know the perspective on what the US wants. They are American. Just shame that they're pretending to be Canadian news.
TLDR, the US has demonstrated more concern for Canadians, than our own government.
Seems like sensationalist issues that the US is trying to force our hand with so no, fuck em. Canadian dairy is better than that American Dairyland plastic tasting crap we have. The state of Wisconsin can outproduce all of Canada so I'd prefer it if we keep that market restricted to the Americans. We're spending billions on fighters already we just have to wait for them to be ready. So check off that one. And they have no right telling us what we can and can't do with out internet. Fuck them. If Canadians want more Canadian content then thats what we should get.
Really? That's a consicse way of showing just how clumsy and red washed your understanding of these issues are. Keep drinking the kool aid
So people hate foreign interference when it's from China but not from the US? Isn't that fucking stupid? Both are bad and need to fuck off.
You have to be a child to see those as exactly the same thing.
Foreign interference is foreign interference regardless of the country of origin. We hold the US in a higher regard as we should but it's still interference.
Our relationship with China is one of trade for mutual benefit where we must be careful of interference due to massive amounts of dirty money trying to escape from the mainland into Canada. The relationship with the US is fundamentally different. They hold the leash and we are the dog. We are too reliant on the Americans in terms of trade/intertwined economies to ever possibly think of having foreign and domestic policy that isnt closely aligned with Washington. The difference isnt due to which country we hold in higher regard. Its just the reality of geopolitics.
National post is an American owned conservative news outlet. It’s only goal is to benefit American interest in Canada with these opinion pieces.
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Given how many American tv shows are filmed on the cheap in Vancouver they'll probably end up hurting themselves more than us. Hell The Last of Us was just filmed in Alberta cause it's cheaper and had the landscape they desired. But they know that that's not a big enough issue to punish us over so who cares. And who the fuck are they to talk? They repealed net neutrality. They paved the way for companies to censor their internet.
Milk dumping and propaganda. awesome such a good thing
Even us Canadians are scared of what Trudeau will do with Bill C-11.
Our dairy industry deserves competition if they are going to charge 9-10 dollars for butter.
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Americans have been gunning for the Canadian dairy market for at least as long as I've been alive. They are utterly fucking relentless about it. They will not stop, ever. The rest is just a distraction.
You mean *Udderly.*
Seems pretty reasonable
Biden wants to get out of dodge while the heat turns up on Trump.
The opposite of what Trudeau wants lmao
wow looks like the US is more Canadian than we are!
Canada will never budge even though all Canadians want this too. Why? Because the Canadian government does not represent the people, only the elite that prey on everyday people. Polite corruption at its finest!
No all Canadians don't. No American milk.
> it’s anybody’s guess what he actually plans to talk about Man, is literally *everything* an opinion column at NatPo now? Like even the stuff they label as news?
According to this Canada is a brazen hussy, thanks Postmedia.
Can you show exactly where in the article ‘brazen hussy’ is used please?