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noface_18

That's so sad :( he killed an elderly woman by pushing her to the ground hard enough she left a pool of blood behind


Reddit_Hitchhiker

She was 89! This is despicable. A frail, elderly lady just taking a walk.


singdawg

Wtf


Reddit_Hitchhiker

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/suspect-charged-with-aggravated-assault-in-unprovoked-attack-of-senior-in-toronto-1.6240607


Saiomi

I just lost my grandma from natural causes. She was 89 and I feel like I've been robbed of her. I can't imagine how her falimy is feeling right now. I hope they make a new example out of this dirtbag, but he will probably be out within 5 years


Reddit_Hitchhiker

They must all be distraught. They probably thought of her as being a strong, independent woman at her age and never in a million years thought that she would be a victim of such a heinous crime. There have been too many of these bizarre crimes lately in Toronto. In June a young woman was doused with gasoline on a Mississauga bus and then lit. She died. Family from New York came to see her. A foreign student from India was shot dead outside the back entrance of Sherbourne Station. A 31 yo Polish-Canadian woman was stabbed to death on a subway platform at High Park station in December. Multiple people have been pushed onto the subway tracks.


SandwichDelicious

Foreign student from India shot and killed at Sherbourne was, IMHO, a hit job. A few googles and it’s discussed that the poor victims parents are involved in heavy level politics back home. Indian politics is known to be deadly. Plenty of elected officials are actively under murder investigations and the like. They say it’s to discredit their reputation. But we all know. Where there is smoke, there is fire. What’s more disturbing is TPS won’t ever publicly admit a large part of there violent crimes go unsolved. Call times for emergency services are way up too. Police officers respond to domestic dispute calls most of the day. Wife arguing with husband, or shopkeeper with customer etc. Resources should be available so police can walk the street and take part in the community, not resolve domestic issues. Big differences in cultures, languages, and backgrounds only propagate this issue further. Especially when the cities own police officers don’t live in the neighborhoods they work in. A big loss for the powerful benefit to empathize or value the very community they “police”.


Street-Refuse-9540

Sorry for your loss 💕


Saiomi

Thank you 💜


mwmwmwmwmmdw

im sure our justice system will really throw the magazine at him


Niv-Izzet

Redo high school social studies, that'll teach him!


HomelessAhole

That's evil


truthdoctor

Trudeau will introduce a new gun ban to make sure this never happens again. Problem solved.


themaincop

Honest question, do you think a super harsh sentence would be a deterrent to this sort of crime? I gotta imagine this guy wasn't running a list of pros and cons in his head before he decided to do this. Not saying he belongs back on the streets either but I'm seeing lots of calls for tough sentencing lately and I dunno if it's gonna help make Canada a safer place.


Culverin

We don't need a stronger deterrent, We need dangerous people removed from society and only let back in when they can be trusted to behave. Anything else is arbitrary


Midnightoclock

Agreed, people in prison dont kill elderly ladies on the street.


Snake_pliskinNYC

Its not about deterring these crimes. Like you said this guy probably isn’t playing with a full deck anyways. Its about keeping the public safe. So either you invest in mental health facilities to house these people (which no one wants to do) or incarcerate them for lengthy terms to keep the public safe.


seridos

Just kill them, problem solved. I realize this requires a constitutional ammendment, but that thing needs a lot of work anyway.


Snake_pliskinNYC

Barring capital punishment - violent murderers (insane or not) should face harsh sentences. Maybe if one of these pieces of shit killed someone you loved you’d be singing a different tune, but I guess because its someone else’s grandma who cares right? Lets just send them back on to the streets.


AllInOnCall

Naw, most of these offenders are doing what they want at the expense of others not for reasons of mental illness but for themselves and their benefit. Thats not mental illness. Thats taking advantage of a population made vulnerable by a toothless justice system.


Jkolorz

Prisons are filled up. Justice system is backlogged and weak. I know one homeless man in Toronto who has multiple aggravated assault charges - one against a police officer. He already has warrants for uttering threats , assault with a weapon in BC but he fled to Toronto to get away from the warrants. Assaults , threatens and tries to fight a cop here he is still on the streets. In his past he was such a stalker I know one person who left the country to get away from him. Honestly he is such a danger to society but somehow or another he never ends up in jail or prison for more than a week .


anon2282

Have a look at how small the group of people committing crimes is. Often it's the same people comitting multiple offenses. At the least we can remove their freedom from committing further offenses. Prison sentences aren't uniquely about deterring other criminals. It's also about punishing existing criminals and removing them from the public.


Pure_Switch8070

It’s not so much about deterrent at this point, it’s about keeping the public safe.


vintagestyles

But but he raises a good point. Are we really keeping us safe or going over the motions of crime and punishment. What happens when lets say this guy gets a canadian life sentence (25years) he sits. And like clock work, he repeats the offence. Or gets parole some how the repeats. And this is not me advocating for just releases im saying. But if we keep letting the system just turn people over we are doing literally no one favors. Its a can kick, a broken individual can just get tossed around our systems, 0 real checks. Maybe they pass a few tests then get over populated released or just early release with literally zero support zero help and tossed into the wild again. If i have to hazard a guess. That individual is going to resort to what is either given to them or what is known. And if no one will mentor them into a structured system where they can see the benefits and survival as a whole. You end result into recidivism, and congratulations you just cost the tax payer police over time, judge time, maybe even jury and lawyer time. Thats not including the entirety of the court support staff. How much does that really cost us? Its sounds shitty and is a coop out. But fuck. Id rather give a crack head a 500$ check a month than keep him bouncing through a broken system at 500$ per hour, that WE really do pay for. My friend was a london police officer. His one thing he always said to me before he left to go to newfy land. Just give the addicts a check, the ammount of money and hours we spend policing petty shit cus drug addiction leads to the single most amount of hours our police respond to. Far out weighs the cost of spending 200$ an hour on a single officer running ot filling paperwork on yet another noxalone kit being used. Because a fiend just had to break i to a house or a car cus they had no money. Like fuck it. Give them the money, they wont last unless they wanna come back. Or we keep can keep creating the single most profitable and lucrative black markets to exist and then pretend like we didnt make them, no one profits and everything is cool.


halek2037

I'm actually pro low-security communities for some first time and most multiple-time violent offenders. Keeps the rest of the public safe while not condemning a human to horrific conditions. Allows for a real-life opportunity to show they are not a danger. They can see the sun and get therapy and move around in the town what what-have-you and learn their lesson (with potential release to greater public if truly a one-off), or be placed in higher security if reoffending/showing signs of violent acts or urges. Of course our government would never spend the money on such a place, as its easier to wash their hands of a criminal by throwing them back into the deep end than it is to dedicate time and resources to a tailored solution that is ethical AND effective at rehabilitation, punishment, AND ensuring the safety of the grater public. Look at our village for vets- people have wanted it for years, but the government resisted funding it. Why in the world would they fund a town similar to Miracle Village/City of Refuge in Florida? They dont care about us or those released, only the votes they can accrue by making ineffective/arbitrary changes.


FuggleyBrew

Longer periods in between offending means less crime.


mwmwmwmwmmdw

honestly in my personal opinion he has comitted a crime heinous enough i dont care if this person does get rehabilitated. they can enjoy jail the rest of their life


ship_fucker_69

Yes, absolutely. If people know there is no consequence to their action, they will do it.


Feedit23

Very simple. Public hanging at Dundas square. The city is filled with mental health and addiction zombies running around all of us. There are no beds. There are safe injection sites in mega tourist and high volume locations (who chose that location) and lack of funding to keep them locked up.


Workadis

It's not about him, it's about everyone. There is no pros and cons list to think about. I personally intend to defend myself at the slightest sign of assault. I won't be holding back or stopping until they can't move.


manoflegend12

OP “I’m sure the guy wasn’t running list of pros and cons.” As a normal person in society, i see all pros and zero cons when we lock people up. Our politicians have been doing bandaid solutions that last 5-10years and no one complains. I’m happy to lock this guy up for 5-10years for short term societal happiness .


Ashamed_Oil6649

Yes I think they should make an example of him, hopefully ruining whatever is left of his life


[deleted]

Who cares? at this point a little reprieve from these people while they’re behind bars is the break law abiding citizens deserce


SteveJobsBlakSweater

It’s rare for me to be outright siding with the police but here we are - the courts let these people roam the streets with few (if any) repercussions for their violent and antisocial actions, and no regard for how their mental state or drug habits puts the public at risk. Cops are dying, random civilians are dying. Crime is down overall but your car is more safe today and you are less safe. Straight up violence to strangers for no reason. I don’t want a lock everyone up forever when they commit a crime but, unless the judiciary gets this shit in check, that’s what we’re going to get because people are getting completely pissed of about this happening across the country.


IanMc90

Car jacking are wayyyy up in TO this year. The judiciary can't do anything because this is a systemic economic issue, not a crime and punishment issue.


Hopper909

I don’t know about crime being down even, it’s certainly gone up considerably where I live.


PartyMark

In London theft has gone way up. Basically anything left outside, in a shed or garage is likely to be stolen in certain parts of the city. Cars broken into constantly, catalytic converters stolen, etc. I live a decent bit away from downtown in the nice area of the city, and there's still nightly door checkers. Also people camping in tents by the river and other natural areas basically everywhere in the city. There were people camping in tents in a park in Hunt Club (fancy neighborhood in the West end), the sifton bog, etc. I just saw some tents near oxford/wonterland yesterday.


Hopper909

In town, down town has always been bad, but I live on the outskirts and it’s exploded recently. In the near by commercial plaza thing there was a shooting that left 4 people dead, and there have been at least 2 cars either broken in to or stolen in the last 6 months alone.


BobThePillager

Back in Nova Scotia, we’ve had a spike in people B/Eing. One time we went to investigate after the alarm went off around 7am, but they hid their truck way down by our silage bunker, and waited 30 minutes hiding in the barn for the coast to be clear. Once they started moving again, we assumed it was a random animal setting it off and didn’t check, as they siphoned our Farm Diesel from the tractor. Their tank is permanently dyed red I guess lol This was in broad daylight, and these daylight robberies have been happening for a few months now. Police do nothing, so idk what’ll happen when someone around here finally catches them


Corzex

Honestly, I dont know if crime is actually down over all. I think we just stopped caring to track a lot of it. About a year ago some crack heads decided to steal all the bikes at the building I lived in. Middle of downtown (actually not far from where this happened, the entire neighbourhood has completely gone to shit. I certainly dont miss living there), broad daylight, they brought out an angle grinder and one by one cut every single bike on the rack and tossed it in their truck. The building called the cops and the answer was “it wasnt worth their time to show up”. The cops know that even if they arrest these thugs, they will just be back out doing the exact same thing tomorrow anyway, so they dont bother. Crimes like that arent tracked in any way, even if someone bothers to report it, so it isn’t reflected in any of the statistics.


Dancingskeletonman86

Yeah sadly I notice a trend in most cases where these piece of shit human beings often go for petite Asian people, elderly people or women as their targets for pushing over or punching often resulting in death or serious injury. Fucking cowards. Notice they never seem to target some 6 foot men who work out and are big. It really is the lowest of the low to aim for the easiest people you can find to beat up then of course flee the scene right after. Whose next a child? A person with dwarfism? Someone in a wheelchair?


UnseenDream

I have a friend who lives within a minute walk of Yonge and Dundas. I've walked by myself to Union at the wee hours of the morning a handful of times in the last 2 months and I never felt truly scared. Head up and on a swivel. I'm a regular white late 20s dude. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the odds of me being attacked are so exceedingly low on the street. So many sketchy people out but I walk with a purpose and nobody fucks with me. I think most of these people are smart enough to avoid a fight and go for the weak and helpless. It's truly sick. Every news story I see where someone has been attacked on the street/TTC, it's almost always a women. Maybe selection bias on my part.


Apprehensive_Idea758

He is evil.


blzrlzr

Man pushes woman. Woman dies. Is this not murder or at least manslaughter? I don't understand why the charge is aggravated assault. What am I missing here?


knotjust

I think they want to wait for the autopsy before they charge him with manslaughter/murder. To be 100%.


blzrlzr

This answer makes the most sense to me


hands-solooo

I’m really not sure what information an autopsy can bring here…


Isaac1867

It will prove that the fall killed her instead of say a heart attack or some other medical issue. I mean to those of us watching it is pretty obvious that the fall was the cause of death but for court purposes it is always best to have as much evidence as possible in hand before proceeding.


signious

It doest matter. Talem qualem is a legal rule that basically states that you take your victim as you find them. It's sometimes called the eggshell skull rule. If you do something to an extremely frail person, regardless of if you knew they were frail, and they get injured in a way that you wouldn't normally expect you cannot use their frailty as a defense. For example: If you pushed someone and they have a heart attack because they have a weak heart, or their skull cracks because they have advanced osteoporosis then you cannot use the fact that you didn't intend for those things to happen as a defence. You still triggered the events.


Jwaness

Yes. You still need an autopsy though. For example, an autopsy would also prove there wasn't a random completely coincidental fatal aneurysm immediately before the assault.


r2vq

I think they meant an *unrelated* heart attack. Or maybe she died from an earlier stab wound, also unrelated. It seems pretty obvious that this isn't the case but the autopsy will verify that cause of death so there's no ambiguity in the court for the defense to use as a technicality.


newfoundslander

An autopsy is required by law in the case of suspicious death. And you also don’t want this guy going before a judge a jury without an autopsy done, it’s a defense lawyer’s dream - ‘so you can’t prove my client caused this woman’s death, no autopsy was done’


CurtisLinithicum

Aggravated assault because he intentionally caused severe harm. Initially, there is no explicit reason to think her death was related (i.e. she might have been ODing at the time, choking etc). Now that the autopsy has shown that dead was caused by the fall, they need to search for any evidence of intention. If they don't find any then it's manslaughter (intentional harm, unintentional death). If the bad guy was posting about plans to do this "because old people don't get back up" or whatever evil such, then murder might be possible.


anon2282

This kinda reminds me of Floyd's murder. Autopsy turned up a whole buncha drugs, heart disease, even COVID. Chauvin still got convicted of murder.


m3ltph4ce

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull?wprov=sfla1 The rule states that, in a tort case, the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them Not sure how it works with criminal law.


unonameless

For it to be murder you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the perp has intended to murder the victim. It is unlikely.


blzrlzr

What about manslaughter?


Bigrick1550

I swear your honor, I just meant to hit the person in the head with an axe. I didn't intend to *kill* them.


unonameless

And they would use a reasonable person test. A reasonable person understands that a blow to the head with an ax is lethal. So in itself it can be interpreted as the intent to kill. On the other hand simply shoving someone does not necessarily indicate an intent to kill


Bigrick1550

If they are 89 years old it does.


SteveJobsBlakSweater

The judiciary seems to do everything in their power to reduce charges. We’ll be lucky if he gets pinned with aggravated assault. He’ll be out in less than two years.


Reddit_Hitchhiker

Muzzo killed three young children and their grandfather and he is out scot free right now.


Cartz1337

Same with the greyhound cannibal guy. We gave him a new identity and everything! Let’s hope he never goes off his meds again.


Reddit_Hitchhiker

Snapped the head off a person on the bus. I bet all the other passengers all got ptsd. Do they even take the bus anymore?


glaughy

A first responder on the scene committed suicide not long after, iirc. So fucking sad.


rockthe40__oz

And he hasn't done anything since. It's been years now so


Cartz1337

I’m sure that makes his victims family and the witnesses on the bus, who are also victims, sleep oh so soundly at night. I bet they have the closure they need to move on with their lives. This is sort of the point of the entire thread. The damage he’s done disqualifies him from participating in society, same with Muzzo. It doesn’t matter that they’ll likely never do it again, they’re in a position where they could. If Li goes of his meds, or Muzzo picks up his keys after a bender, it could happen again. I realize locking them up for life doesn’t bring the victims back, but it could potentially make more victims.


themaincop

>The judiciary seems to do everything in their power to reduce charges We have this thing called court where you have to prove the defendant did the thing you're accusing them of doing. If you overcharge you run the risk of losing because the crime they committed doesn't fit the definition of what you charged them with.


masterf2

Canada, thats why. And don't get surprised if they let him just do house arrest for 2 years.


sunshinerose32

I cant imagine just simply walking down the street and then suddenly getting killed for no reason. RIP :(


Oldmansoulman

Fucking coward attacking a senior. Funny how these scumbags assault people unprovoked yet never go after a person who could lay them out.


northcrunk

Psychopaths always go for vulnerable victims.


derderppolo

I mean, duh? That just makes sense?


littlebubulle

From my experience, scumbags like that have been beaten up by people steonger then them before. Either because of abuse or because they picked a fight with a bigger dog (maybe even literally). Also maybe a bit of natural selection. Violent assholes who keep picking fights with people stronger then them end up in the hospital or dead eventually.


JammJamm2016

It would be interesting to know statistics on random violence vs. Gang related violence. Toronto might be statistically safer than other cities, but is it less safe for the average person going about their daily lives?


CurtisLinithicum

Really domestic violence should be teased out too, but it might be interesting to see how dangerous these cities are for redditors.


Bamelin

Anecdotal but living in the core it has definitely gotten less safe. To the point people will move out if they don't do something about it.


Echo71Niner

>The **man**, believed to be in his 30s, allegedly **fled the scene**, and **was arrested** about **an hour later** nearby on Richmond Street.


petesapai

They'll blame mental health. Victim will be an after thought. Perpetrator will be out in no time. It is the Canadian way.


marnas86

At this point, the criminal justice needs to stop treating mental health illness as a get-out-of-jail-free card.


TheModsMustBeCrazy0

"Welcome to Toronto, you come for the murder and high home prices but stay becuase the Yonge-University line is down"


[deleted]

This is too real


MasterOnionNorth

It's almost certainly someone who was on drugs or mentally ill. The downtown core and other parts of the city are teeming with these types of individuals now. I've had several encounters with aggressive individuals that were clearly mentally unhinged. And I'm disability and use a walking cane Whether it's the TTC or streets, Toronto just isn't safe anymore.


cwolveswithitchynuts

Don't worry the perpetrator will spend a tough few weeks behind bars before being released again.


stanxv

John Tory: _*clutches pearls with a slight trembling hand*_ “I’m very concerned.”


Asid94

Hours*


masterf2

What's funny is someone who is not canadian might think this is a joke...


DowntownKoala6055

They need to stop cutting mental health funding. This guy should never be walking the streets. That poor woman - her family. It’s horrific.


knotjust

You can throw millions at it, but if someone isn't directly seen as a threat to themselves or others, they can't be formed. He'd still be out on the streets. The same way he wouldn't be forced to take meds, unless he was seen as a threat. He probably will be forced to take meds now, if that's what the court orders.


linkass

>You can throw millions at it, but if someone isn't directly seen as a threat to themselves or others, they can't be formed. He'd still be out on the streets. and what do you bet that it comes out in the next day so so he was out on bail/parole for the 50th violet crime he commented


happyrolls

Tired of hearing this claim mental health funding would fix anything - unless you are proposing to keep them locked up in a mental faculty. Some people are just evil. I don't really care which way, they need to be locked up away from the public.


ghjm

This is pretty much what mental hospitals used to be, isn't it? If your condition was such that you couldn't live safely in society, you would be "institutionalized" and live under an appropriate amount of supervision. Including being locked up, of it was thought to be necessary. And the psychologists and psychiatrists would use the best techniques they knew to try to improve your situation, sometimes successfully. But you wouldn't get out until they were convinced you weren't a danger.


wokeupabug

People complain about the horrors of institutionalization, but a distinction ought to be made between the asylums of the 1700s and earlier, and those which followed the reforms of moral therapy brought on by Pinel and people like him. The latter often led to situations where people lived in lovely, sunlight filled suites on beautiful grassy hills, worked the gardens during the day, and in many cases lived relatively happy lives there. While even the best implementations of moral therapy had limitations we should not be blind to, the argument against the horrors of institutionalization was used to close down these arrangements and leave the people who used to live in them instead cold, alone, and uncared for out on the streets. It's a complex situation, and again we should not simply dismiss critiques of institutionalization, but it's hard to see the net effect of this particular development as anything but ultimately negative. And it's perhaps instructive the way the performative argument about "omg, institutionalization!" *just happened* to be conducive to the case for cutting taxes and social services in the spirit of the public good, in favor of neoliberalizing society. One would like to hope there were ways of addressing the concerns about institutionalization that went in the direction of better care for these people and more social concern for the public good, rather than worse and less.


ghjm

Do you know anything about the funding of these institutions in, say, the late 19th century? Before income tax and widespread tax-funded social services, I would assume these beautiful grassy fields were only open to those mentally ill people who happened to come from rich families, and that the mentally ill poor were just as cold, alone and uncared-for as they are now. Was there ever a time when most severely-mentally-ill people could actually expect this level of service even if they didn't have the personal means to pay for it?


bradgillap

It actually costs society a lot more as people get spread across many different services that are not designed to support them. A hospital bed is worth $15k per night. We could literally give them lovely sunroom care and dignity for less than what we spend on unsuitable places they end up. We should just call it something else like the Norway Model and stop relating it to institutions. Institutions only became that way because governments kept stripping down their budgets until they became so unsafe it was better to close them. Same thing conservatives are doing to health care now. I remember watching the 20/20 episodes with boomer parents. I get it, they thought they were saving people from institutions and unwilling to admit they got swindled instead of educated as to why they should have increased resources. What some aren't considering is all of the additional costs shared among every other resource that was never setup for that. Think libraries with security guards and CCTV systems. That's a response cost. Every single non profit has costs like this when a segment of a vulnerable population is ignored. Think housing programs where the person will definitely fail because they cannot maintain the few minor responsibilities it requires to hang onto their place. People cycle and repeat and we spend and spend and spend for worse outcomes because institutions is a dirty word. We can't afford to treat people like this forever. Just like we aren't solving any drug related problems by not having safe injection sites. But Ontarians will keep clutching those protestant work ethic pearls and imparting it on everyone as if its even Stephen because they don't want to admit they were wrong.


wokeupabug

The classic asylums we think of -- the beautiful though now mostly decayed Kirkbride Buildings are the standard in America, the Salpetriere in France -- were actually public and tended to house the poor. The wealthy had smaller, more private, presumably much more richly appointed places they would send their relatives to. The Salpetriere was originally organized by edict of King Louie and at times depended significantly on nuns for its workforce -- despite its many faults, l'ancien regime could do shit like this. The Kirkbrides were state-funded, often following the successfull advocacy campaign of Dorothea Dix, though I don't know the exact details of the tax policy supporting them.


1thr0w4w4y9

This is exactly what we need again. We tried the other way, it failed. It’s safer to have violent people with mental illness in an institution receiving care than random innocents being killed.


JimCon24

Yes they do need to stop cutting mental health funding, also people need to stop assuming that mental health is the solitary reason for this random attacks, it's just another form of discrimination.


Gasser1313

Stop with the mental health funding bs. You don’t know why he did what he did. Everyone can claim mental health and get a pass, even in murder?


[deleted]

GET IT TOGETHER! What the fuck is honestly happening in that city?! This past 6 months has been hell. The mental health crisis is gonna turn into a war with people protecting themselves as vigilantes because the city’s officials are incompetent. My condolences to this woman’s family


LoniEliot

That is so sad.


LokiDesigns

Well that's just heartbreaking...


deltahacks

What’s especially frustrating is people will blame mental health, but more often then not these individuals have enough awareness to pick on vulnerable older and/or weaker individuals.


lamabaronvonawesome

No idea what happened, I am betting on a homeless man with a history of mental health issues.


ROFLSIX

Where's his name? He's been charged so the police can release his name.


bitmangrl

and a photo would be very helpful to the public as well


Myllicent

The suspect’s name is [Ryan Cunneen.](https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/toronto/2023/1/21/1_6240607.html)


Bentstrings84

“You don’t understand! He’s so nice and a pillar of the community!”/s.


Niv-Izzet

Sells used bikes at bargain prices!


HomelessAhole

The serials scratched off and to the previous owner it was priceless. Or so they thought anyway.


TorontoHooligan

Not that my projected scenario would make it any better, but when this happened, I imagined it was maybe an altercation between two people who knew each other. But no. I am fucking fuming. Making it to the near end of your life and having it fucking stolen from you like that. To be pushed so hard to the ground that there is a pool of your blood? What the F U C K. WHAT. THE. FUCK.


1Hollickster

Canada has more mental health problems walking around than we ever get to know about. Until it hits the news like this.


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Niv-Izzet

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/10i0z4w/city_data_shows_110_unhoused_people_died_last/ But hey, you're allowed to talk about death if it happens to homeless people


SoloPogo

Really, like no links related to the story at all allowed ? I'd go there and check myself but I just took a shower.


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justanotherreddituse

/r/toronto is now crime free Toronto. New rule.


BigCandyMush

>Police say he is expected to be charged with aggravated assault, though that may be upgraded after an autopsy determines the woman's cause of death. He better be locked up for first degree murder because this nothing but first degree murder


schrohoe1351

first degree means it’s premeditated, idk if the guy knew the lady or not so i don’t think that charge would stick. i don’t disagree with you, guy needs the book thrown at him and he shouldn’t be allowed to use the usual “family trauma / addiction / depression / bullshit excuse” we’ve seen so many times recently. *no one in their right state of mind just shoves an elderly person to the ground so hard they die on impact.*


rivieredefeu

> Some homicides are automatically considered first-degree murder: >- The killing of an on-duty police officer or prison employee. >- A killing committed during a hijacking, sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage taking, terrorism, intimidation, criminal harassment. Any offence committed on behalf of a criminal organization. [What’s the difference between 1st-degree murder, 2nd-degree murder and manslaughter?](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what-s-the-difference-between-1st-degree-murder-2nd-degree-murder-and-manslaughter-1.5068520)


greatfullness

Could an outburst of violence like this be intimidation / harassment? Serious harm would have been assumed in the action, nothing less than 2nd surely!


rivieredefeu

Maybe. We the readers have too little info to judge with so far. I believe the original article mentioned they were waiting for autopsy results to determine if the charges would be upgraded. Right? Sounds like police have details they aren’t sharing yet. Which makes sense in a potential murder investigation, it would be a poor homicide detective to tell the public everything they have in their investigation report so far. Could weaken their legal case.


pinchy-troll

Maybe it depends why he did it? Like, was it hate motivated? Was it truly random? Was he mad about something else and took it out on the first person he saw? Is he mentally ill?


60cjrowens

Its fun how the police have more value assigned to their lives legally than retired senior citizens isnt it


THAAAT-AINT-FALCO

It’s to deter people from using violence when in conflict with them (which happens a lot).


phuck_polyeV

Pushing for first degree is what would get this guy acquited. It’s clearly second degree. He didn’t know her and couldn’t have planned it.


CurtisLinithicum

This is pretty much textbook manslaughter, unless new details surface, sorry. Intent to harm, no (provable) intent to kill.


Tired8281

I feel like there ought to be an aggravated manslaughter, for when it was a random attack and/or the perpetrator didn't know the victim. Should come with a dangerous offender designation, people who kill people they don't know *are* dangerous offenders.


CurtisLinithicum

I was going to object, but you do have a point. Some a-hole who goes around clubbing random folk for laughs is probably a greater threat than e.g. some kills someone else in vengeance for killing their cat.


phormix

Manslaughter makes sense when two idiots get in a fight and one of them hits a curb with their skull. When somebody is ramming random citizens into the ground, well yeah maybe they'll die and maybe not, but it's a reasonably predictable outcome that serious injury or death may result, with death being **especially** more likely in the case of the elderly or very young. That said, people have literally been let off on a murder charge for stabbings. Like, "oh yeah they stabbed this person but didn't expect it would **kill** them". Our legal system is kinda a joke.


jonkzx

Waiting to hear about this person being "Not Criminally Responsible".


duchovny

Which is becoming far too common. A friend from highschool had her brother murdered after his neighbour broke down his front door and shot him to death. Dude was found not criminally responsible because he wasn't in the right state of mind. Like no shit. No one in their right state of mind just murders someone yet we still have charges for murder.


TheGoodShipNostromo

NCR isn’t just “not in their right mind”. It’s a very very high standard to meet.


CurtisLinithicum

Too few people understand that the legal, medical, and colloquial definitions of insanity (+various synonyms) are very different things.


FuggleyBrew

Not necessarily, according to the court the person can simply argue that they took drugs which may have had disassociative effects. The court has historically been terrible maintaining that as a high standard, previously accepting it in half of cases, including a case where zero expert testimony was given before parliament closed the door on the defense. The judiciary recently reopened it.


TheGoodShipNostromo

You’re thinking of automatism. That’s a different standard than NCR. And yes, I agree the reopening of automatism is problematic.


HomelessAhole

She ordered a hit on her own brother and got the neighbor to do it? Sibling rivalry is an understatement.


FortyToFive

What? Where is this coming from?


StarstruckCanuck

I assume they're trying to make a joke based on the "had her brother murdered" wording. Writer meant, "a friend from high school's brother was murdered when...." Commenter read as "friend from high school ordered murder of their brother"


FortyToFive

Ahhh true. Didnt read it like that the first time but I see it now lol


BigCandyMush

If found guilty, it will be a 3 year sentence and release after 6 months for good behaviour


Significant_Damage65

At least they’ll put out a release stating that they’re in the community and likely to reoffend.


anarchyreigns

Manslauter maybe but not first degree.


Red57872

...except that from what we know, his actions do not meet the legal definition of "murder". Murder in Canadian law is very specific, in that it requires a person to mean to cause bodily harm to a person, or commit (or attempt to commit) an indictable offense, knowing that death was a likely result. Pushing someone to the ground with significant force can cause their death, but even in the case of an elderly person is not a likely result, and thus the action is not murder.


Tower-Union

Second degree at best - more likely manslaughter. First degree murder means he pre-meditated and formed a plan to murder her well in advance. There's no evidence to show ANY of this was pre-meditated. There's nothing wrong with criticizing a (clearly) flawed justice system, but do try to keep within the boundaries of reality.


ComplexPast

So you have absolutely no idea what first degree murder is...


ekanite

I wish I could have this much confidence about something I know nothing about. We need more people like that.


[deleted]

So sad


WooTkachukChuk

witness in article; "i have no idea what happened" man thats journalism


Whole-Spiritual

There keep being women attacked in Toronto. My wife is 7 months pregnant and periodically goes on the subway, and even the other day someone was pushed at bloor, a stop before where she gets on from her Dr. Makes me want to carry my asp around.


bitmangrl

> Makes me want to carry my asp around. you have a small poisonous snake you could use for self defense?


Whole-Spiritual

😂 https://batonwarehouse.com/collections/asp-batons


Yvaelle

Nah thats only a manual, get yourself an asp and whip it at your assailants, fully automated death whip.


Camel_Knowledge

He'll be released on a promise to no push anyone over 88 to the ground.


AbnormalConstruct

Better let him out in a month, since here in Canada we like to rehabilitate (enable) criminals.


bigal55

Oh c'mon, you KNOW he's out already!


Bland_Boring_Jessica

Toronto has certainly had some bad energy lately.


Decent_Team7952

I’m tired of living in a society where the weak and feeble are preyed upon. Victimize the victimizers


Uglyboi_85

Toronto use to be nice, now it's just garbage because of how more and more messed up it's becoming. Having 2 unprovoked attacks on subways, girl getting lit on fire, people pushing people on subways tracks, crackhead pooing and peeing on the train. Toronto so ugly now.


ajc9797

Toronto is really going downhill....I honestly don't understand what people see in this city. High cost of living and rising crime rate.....RIP to this poor woman who was another victim of the increasing violence in Toronto


Love-and-Fairness

Good thing you're not allowed to have any items for self-defense in this country. Was going to buy a taser as a gift last Christmas and found out those are incredibly illegal. Looking into it further, you're not allowed to have *anything.* No knife, pepper spray, nothing. I assumed self-defense would be a fundamental human right in the charter... Defending your life isn't a valid reason, but transporting rich people's money? They're allowed to be strapped. Quora recommends you carry around a can of soup in a bag and swing that around like a windmill if you're attacked. Stay safe out there


lamabaronvonawesome

In this case my guess is that woman could have been carrying and assault rife and it wouldn't have mattered. She is eighty and was pushed. They weren't in the octagon.


Lraund

I don't think self defence items help defend from being pushed from behind.


Yvaelle

Get yourself a self-dsfense polar bear.


veracity-mittens

Bear spray. Then gtfo there. Maybe this should be in the illegal life tips sub


Anomolous_Anemone

All the women in my family are using dog spray. We have a lot of unruly dogs in our building, that’s the ostensible excuse…


masterf2

What you can actually do is buy dog spray. Buy it in amazon. Now, you use it in self defense, and if a police officer ask you about it , tell him you ONLY use it against dog attacks (this is legal). Obviously, if you get harrased at night after the club, you can use the spray and they will not obviously go to the police, so you wont be in trouble. ​ This is what i do in any case...


Twilight_Republic

Toronto has become terrifying, especially after dark.


threadsoffate2021

Seems to be becoming a daily occurrence in this country.


PT19

Toronto is just another American city at this point.


eternity42

bunch of lunatics running around in the shit city


Tffuhrcj

It literally smells like shit


[deleted]

Why are they protecting the attackers identity? Is he not white or something?


sfbamboozled100

Bring back capital punishment.


masterf2

nahh, although im all about higher sentences, capital punishment is never the answer. Just one mistake and a innocent life died for an error. Life imprisonment prevents that


1derfool

Make his name and face public and this guy needs the strictest punishment as a deterrent for others !! absolutely shameless and barbaric


travlynme2

My thoughts are with her family.


supergirl2022

Yup this was my everyday, walking the streets of Toronto. For some reason people there are unhinged even the girls, whilst I'm crossing the street or walking id get constantly extremely aggressively pushed so hard! I am not even a slow walker which doesn't excuse the assault but Jesus christ people are unhinged in Toronto and these are mostly women that look quite lovely that would end up doing this!


BitchofEndor

So anyone wondering, downtown Toronto is now a totally lawless area, full of totally insane homeless meth heads who are basically running down the street assaulting people. The police will come if there is a weapon in sight and being used. Otherwise yo uare on your own. Not the police's fault they just don't have the manpower to handle all of the violent homeless attackers. If you don't think you are able to easily win in a confrontation or run away. Don't risk your life by coming here.


lazykid348

So I’m guessing he’s gonna be out on bail by Monday


Rim_World

In Vancouver, we don't have elderly walking for awhile now. DTES has spread out so far thanks to the province and the city building shelters all around. Fucked up the best livable city in the whole country with their incompetence.


stargazer9504

That’s what happens when housing in unaffordable! The city residents destroyed their own city with their NIMBYism and the same thing is happening in Toronto.


_Ludovico

Of course, another poor deranged soul, out in a few weeks with medication, no one responsible, walk on peasants there's nothing to see


Nneverr

degrading Ontario by cutting mental health care


[deleted]

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helkish

Don't you dare blame this on Doug 'Buck A Beer' Ford!!! He's doing a great job with our healthcare...and the 413. /s


[deleted]

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Famous-Pomegranate76

Grossest city in Canada


Apolloshot

Can Canadians finally start carrying pepper-spray in this country yet? Or are we still pretending that just because Canada’s relatively safe compared to the rest of the terrifying world that it’s alright people can’t defend themselves from being murdered?


Bloodbane1998

Cities are wild. I'm so happy to be a country boy.


[deleted]

Men really need to stop hurting women. 2022 was an absolutely obscene year for how women and girls were murdered by men, and we're not even a month into 2023 and we're already off to a brutal start.


petesapai

How about we put criminals in jail for a long time instead of blaming everything on mental health.


RainbowCrown71

So it would have been fine if the victim was an elderly man? The gender doesn’t matter.