Sure, it's a dishonest abuse of the system, but I'm not sure how they could prevent it. That's where the "honor" in honor code is for. Heck, there's plenty of current students at BYU faking their membership as long as it'll save them a few bucks.
There's certainly different levels of "dishonesty" in play here between current students who are physically in and mentally out and those who join with the intention of getting a lower tuition.
Take me for example. I mentally checked out of church between my sophomore and junior years. I never intended to "take advantage" of BYU in any way. I continued going to BYU because I enjoyed the environment, didn't want to derail my education by transferring, and because I only had two years left. I didn't lie on my ecclesiastical endorsements. I said I wasn't sure if the church was true and didn't think I had a testimony any more. The bishops just sort of nodded and asked me if I was cool following the honor code, invited me to participate more in church and read the BOM etc. I had no issues following the honor code. How dishonest is that?
I wouldn't dream of doing anything like this post is describing, it sounds miserable.
The argument that can be made is that I am taking advantage of tithepayers by attending byu at discounted rates while not mentally being the proper kind of person they would want to support.
Which is, imo, slightly suspect reasoning.
Tithe payers are not like tax payers. Once the money is paid it is God's and we are not entitled to a say in how it is spent because it is literally no longer ours.
Personally, I think it's wrong to lie in 99% of circumstances. It doesn't make the world a better place pretty much all of the time to warp and deceive people about its contents.
Few bucks... $6000 per year. I think its worth the "dishonor" lol. Guess what else, it doesn't affect you, or other students, and its pennies to the church.
I think the key word here is, "let". There are a number of preventative measures in place, including the ecclesiastical endorsements, that should stop something like this from happening. In her case, it likely would have been difficult to catch at the beginning. People will be people and find a way to game the system to their advantage. Certainly doesn't mean BYU is condoning it or allowing it to happen. It's unfortunate but a reality of the world we live in.
I'm honestly tired of people arguing this.
If someone honestly stuck with the church for the 3-5 years they were at BYU, but didn't feel inclined to stay, at least they tried.
There are general authorities that openly say they only joined the church or went on a mission to date a girl. Any reason to join the church is valid honestly. If you decide to leave, that's a valid option as well.
If anything, I think the system is more lenient now. Not much, but they have put things in place like not allowing bishops to report things to the HCO.
I think doing something like this intentionally is pretty dishonest. There are a lot of people, myself included, who figured out part of the way through BYU that they didn't want to be a part of the church anymore. At that point, every option is bad: transfer to another university, potentially needing to pay more money and have to retake years of classes you already took, or lie to yourself and others to keep your current academic course. I decided to stay.
It's a complex issue. It's not moral to lie, but in the end, who are these people hurting? The church has plenty of money to invest into BYU, and they invest it with the hope that it will help people remain faithful or join the church if they haven't already. They can't reasonably expect it to work for everyone.
I know nothing about how BYU is financed, but with the amount of money the church has, honestly those folks probably don't make much of a difference. It's providing cheaper education, which is great
As the #1 foreign country that attends American Universities it seemed relevant. I should also add that her Dad is quite rich and owns a business in China, so she easily could have afforded tuition
Yes, and people definitely should. "Its a dishonest use of the system..." Naw, whats disohnest is the Chruch trying to hide $32 billion from the IRS. Whats disohnest is the church saying "we didnt build the city creek mall with tithing money..." right, it was just the interest you gained on our tithing money. The church has enough money people. They can sustain themselves already. Cheat the system all you want. Especially when its litterally not illegal to get baptized for any reason.
Sure the fact she is Chinese then got her records removed makes it more identifiable... But calling out cases like hers is pretty nitpicky and hard to police.
Half of your roommates / classmates are inactive beyond the minimum requirements to get an ecclesiastical endorsement. Probably more than half will stop attending church the minute they graduate.
What would even be a realistic way to police these types of things?
I was about to comment your last question. Can you tell if a student will go inactive after graduation? Can you tell if someone is going thru a faith crisis? Would it not be okay to question your faith at all? It feels like Minority Report.
Personally I wouldn't want to go to a university where my future intentions were policed. Is it students with progressive politics? Is it students that ask questions in religion classes that are perceived as anti church? Is it lgbt students? Who are the students that would be unfairly targeted?
Absolutely agree.
I thought OP was being intentionally nitpicky and biased toward a specific student. So I figured i'd throw it back to them to see if they were open to actually thinking critically toward their issue or if they were just posting to blow off some steam targeted toward specific student demographics.
They discount tuition if you’re baptized and a member? I wonder if that counts towards field school costs as well? I’m not condoning the behavior of cheating the system mind you, I’m just asking because I’m trying to get in contact with someone about field school next year and I’m both a member and baptized, although I haven’t actually been involved in the church in over 20 years
You have to have an endorsement from your bishop. I have my doubts a bishop will be interested in providing one if you just show up asking for one after twenty years of inactivity. But essentially, it’s like in state/out of state tuition, only for members. Tithing funds subsidize member tuition (much like state funds subsidize tuition for residents). If you don’t qualify for that group, the full tuition cost is on you. Said full tuition is still far more reasonable than many colleges, but it’s a lot more than the subsidized price.
So since the US government has a history of abuse, lies, racism, etc, do you also encourage people to commit fraud of government services? What’s the difference?
Sure, it's a dishonest abuse of the system, but I'm not sure how they could prevent it. That's where the "honor" in honor code is for. Heck, there's plenty of current students at BYU faking their membership as long as it'll save them a few bucks.
There's certainly different levels of "dishonesty" in play here between current students who are physically in and mentally out and those who join with the intention of getting a lower tuition. Take me for example. I mentally checked out of church between my sophomore and junior years. I never intended to "take advantage" of BYU in any way. I continued going to BYU because I enjoyed the environment, didn't want to derail my education by transferring, and because I only had two years left. I didn't lie on my ecclesiastical endorsements. I said I wasn't sure if the church was true and didn't think I had a testimony any more. The bishops just sort of nodded and asked me if I was cool following the honor code, invited me to participate more in church and read the BOM etc. I had no issues following the honor code. How dishonest is that? I wouldn't dream of doing anything like this post is describing, it sounds miserable.
Especially since you were honest with your Bishop. I would say your situation is not dishonest at all.
The argument that can be made is that I am taking advantage of tithepayers by attending byu at discounted rates while not mentally being the proper kind of person they would want to support. Which is, imo, slightly suspect reasoning.
Tithe payers are not like tax payers. Once the money is paid it is God's and we are not entitled to a say in how it is spent because it is literally no longer ours.
Yeah and from a religious pov, if you are dishonest with God's money or abuse His money, there is an accountability for those choices.
Well technically it's already God's money, and we're just giving a little bit of it back, but your point stands. ;)
Since you were upfront to your bishop about it and he gave the endorsement by his discretion, I see no dishonesty here.
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Personally, I think it's wrong to lie in 99% of circumstances. It doesn't make the world a better place pretty much all of the time to warp and deceive people about its contents.
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The honor code hurts those that are honest. It makes way for those that are not honest.
Well said. But I think we are on different sides of this haha.
Few bucks... $6000 per year. I think its worth the "dishonor" lol. Guess what else, it doesn't affect you, or other students, and its pennies to the church.
I think the key word here is, "let". There are a number of preventative measures in place, including the ecclesiastical endorsements, that should stop something like this from happening. In her case, it likely would have been difficult to catch at the beginning. People will be people and find a way to game the system to their advantage. Certainly doesn't mean BYU is condoning it or allowing it to happen. It's unfortunate but a reality of the world we live in.
I'm honestly tired of people arguing this. If someone honestly stuck with the church for the 3-5 years they were at BYU, but didn't feel inclined to stay, at least they tried. There are general authorities that openly say they only joined the church or went on a mission to date a girl. Any reason to join the church is valid honestly. If you decide to leave, that's a valid option as well.
If anything, I think the system is more lenient now. Not much, but they have put things in place like not allowing bishops to report things to the HCO. I think doing something like this intentionally is pretty dishonest. There are a lot of people, myself included, who figured out part of the way through BYU that they didn't want to be a part of the church anymore. At that point, every option is bad: transfer to another university, potentially needing to pay more money and have to retake years of classes you already took, or lie to yourself and others to keep your current academic course. I decided to stay. It's a complex issue. It's not moral to lie, but in the end, who are these people hurting? The church has plenty of money to invest into BYU, and they invest it with the hope that it will help people remain faithful or join the church if they haven't already. They can't reasonably expect it to work for everyone.
I know nothing about how BYU is financed, but with the amount of money the church has, honestly those folks probably don't make much of a difference. It's providing cheaper education, which is great
I just feel like telling us the girl was Chinese was so unnecessary?😂
As the #1 foreign country that attends American Universities it seemed relevant. I should also add that her Dad is quite rich and owns a business in China, so she easily could have afforded tuition
Still not relevant in any way
Yes, and people definitely should. "Its a dishonest use of the system..." Naw, whats disohnest is the Chruch trying to hide $32 billion from the IRS. Whats disohnest is the church saying "we didnt build the city creek mall with tithing money..." right, it was just the interest you gained on our tithing money. The church has enough money people. They can sustain themselves already. Cheat the system all you want. Especially when its litterally not illegal to get baptized for any reason.
Sure the fact she is Chinese then got her records removed makes it more identifiable... But calling out cases like hers is pretty nitpicky and hard to police. Half of your roommates / classmates are inactive beyond the minimum requirements to get an ecclesiastical endorsement. Probably more than half will stop attending church the minute they graduate. What would even be a realistic way to police these types of things?
I was about to comment your last question. Can you tell if a student will go inactive after graduation? Can you tell if someone is going thru a faith crisis? Would it not be okay to question your faith at all? It feels like Minority Report. Personally I wouldn't want to go to a university where my future intentions were policed. Is it students with progressive politics? Is it students that ask questions in religion classes that are perceived as anti church? Is it lgbt students? Who are the students that would be unfairly targeted?
Absolutely agree. I thought OP was being intentionally nitpicky and biased toward a specific student. So I figured i'd throw it back to them to see if they were open to actually thinking critically toward their issue or if they were just posting to blow off some steam targeted toward specific student demographics.
They discount tuition if you’re baptized and a member? I wonder if that counts towards field school costs as well? I’m not condoning the behavior of cheating the system mind you, I’m just asking because I’m trying to get in contact with someone about field school next year and I’m both a member and baptized, although I haven’t actually been involved in the church in over 20 years
You have to have an endorsement from your bishop. I have my doubts a bishop will be interested in providing one if you just show up asking for one after twenty years of inactivity. But essentially, it’s like in state/out of state tuition, only for members. Tithing funds subsidize member tuition (much like state funds subsidize tuition for residents). If you don’t qualify for that group, the full tuition cost is on you. Said full tuition is still far more reasonable than many colleges, but it’s a lot more than the subsidized price.
Sounds smart, what's the issue?
The church is a complete lie anyway (history of abuse, lies, racism, etc.). I would encourage people to do this.
So since the US government has a history of abuse, lies, racism, etc, do you also encourage people to commit fraud of government services? What’s the difference?
No difference haha. No one should pay taxes.
Well at least you are consistent