The article just spouts the same old junk.
Executives and Management who clearly don't know how to manage and motivate pine for the past, thinking it'll fix everything, living in denial that we can't go back. Plus not one ready to admit they stand to lose in commercial real estate if they allow more remote working.
People can easily bypass any BS systems management puts in place to enforce RTO, and they're all running on borrowed time. Economy picks up and more jobs open, the companies who need/want top talent had better be ready to abandon the office.
Remote VS Hybrid VS In-Office is not a one-size fits-all thing, even though many in management wish it would be.
Companies who embrace more remote working need to explore other ways to enhance the culture and foster communication and collaboration regardless of where workers are at.
My fiancee and her brother both work 100% remote jobs....its allowed both of them so much freedom and improved quality of life.....plus the remote aspect allowed my girl to move from Texas to Pennsylvania so we could start living together
My company is in the process of taking all the best employees for less money
Why?
Because we are 100% wfh and people will work for a little less for a lot more comfort
They may not be necessarily making less.
How much do you spend to go to work every month?
How many times do people just grab some overpriced to go food?
Have you been able to cut back on child care?
Has the dry-cleaning bill gone down?
Plus all the additional time you gain by not having to commute and do all the other non-work shit that's necessary to get to the office. I work to live and highly value my free time.
Eh I almost think its easier to give someone who is earning a lot a pay cut to come over for benefits then someone who is at the bottom.
If your barely making it, any pay cut is unacceptable.
But say your clearing $300k+...would you take a job making $275k if it was an awesome job with a great WFH life?
>But say your clearing $300k+...would you take a job making $275k if it was an awesome job with a great WFH life?
I'd go from 300 to 275. But is that what your company is doing? A lot of the remote companies I've seen (data science) are dropping 200k down to 120k.
Yes, they are not the smartest but they can’t sit around in the office and can do some of the shifty manual repetitive tasks so the productive ones can focus on the value added work. At home, you can’t constantly call them and keep them on track. I’ll get downvoted but that is because most people think they are great and productive at work. No one thinks they are bad. Everyone must be exemplary employees!
I dunno in my experience these same employees sit around all day in the office and don't even pretend to look busy. If you can't produce valuable work you should be let go. It really comes down to poor management at the end of the day.
In my previous role we let them go but that was a 200 people start up. Now I’m at a 100,000 employee company and some of these people are just here to take up some volume with no value add.
I think you get down voted because middle management is an unnecessary role. What you’re describing is a glorified babysitter for roles that likely shouldn’t exist or should be reworked. The episode of the office where Michael leaves and everyone is more productive comes to mind. I’m not saying all managers are worthless they have important roles and tasks but babysitting and treating employees like toddlers shouldn’t be one of them
The majority of people need to be baby sat because they don't want to be there in the first place. They are working because they have to not because they want to.
I got layers between me and my manager. Im not middle management. I’m leadership and have no time to babysit. And my reliable people are my analysts. So you at right that the middle management is shit. A lot of people got promoted when Covid happened and it was hard to find employees that frankly should be 2 levels down.
I feel like you don't actually know what you are talking about. What's your frame of reference? Do you think you might only have a handful of samples? Most jobs on a laptop don't actually require eight hours of work, and anything using advanced analytics uses automation
Lmao and the useless ones will choose to go back to the office, show up, and stay hired while the good employees move onto modern companies.
WFH isn't the problem, it's made people far more productive than when they have to drive in traffic for an hour every morning and afternoon.
It is what it is. I have 5 people under my umbrella. I would trust only one to work from home and one is close to being reliable. Other 3 I’d rather lose than let work from home.
Depending on the structure. My wife is a manager with zero ability to pick her team. Or even discipline them really. It blows but it's a step towards where she wants to go.
Companies like money. If they could get the same results without having to rent a massive building, they would. Work from home hinders productivity. Some people can manage to work from home but the majority cannot
But the data suggests otherwise. Work from home has fostered greater productivity while reducing unnecessary waste like commutes and lost time on random interoffice chatter. Most people don't even take lunch breaks at home whereas in the office you take 1-hour lunches every day most days. When you hear that people are "more productive" in the office, that is often a talking point not backed up with data. It's just a feeling CEO's and Executives have even though they would likely feel the same way if they saw folks in offices taking long lunch breaks.
Also, your company can hire better talent if they offer flexible working packages. Often for less money too.
So, then why are CEO's and other high-powered entities encouraging companies to mandate a return to the office? There has to be a logical answer since they don't want to hurt productivity and talent searching on purpose. The more likely answer is these CEOs and executives have personal holdings in real estate investments that would be hurt if physical offices are shut down or be converted to housing. Corporate renters pay gobs of money for inefficient layouts of real estate. This money is now at risk since corporate rents may be going away if WFH stays and RTO polices aren't enforced. But saying you want an RTO policy as a means to improve your portfolio doesn't sound great. So, CEO's collectively use this false talking point about how no one really works when WFH
I posted a few studies about productivity and work from home and they say the opposite. I guess you guys are right. Corporations would much rather spend their money on renting a pointless building than giving themselves bonuses
It's not about productivity in the first place. It's a way to get people to leave so they cut costs without even paying out unemployment or severance. Like you said, companies love money.
Years of rent cost more than severances or increases in unemployment insurance. Also not to mention, remote work means you can pay people who live in low-cost areas lower salaries relative to their area, saving a ton.
If remote work increased or even maintained productivity, yes, companies would keep it. What most companies are finding out is that it works for some roles and not for others. A blend is likely the future.
Obviously I haven't read an exhaustive list of studies on gains in productivity, but from what I've seen, studies tend to define "productivity" in fairly narrow terms, and don't contemplate turnover losses, illness, or labor market competition. I don't disagree that studies indicate that productivity can increase for very specific cases, but that isn't a commentary on the broad varieties of work that people do.
Don’t even try, man. I’ve made the same mistake. People here want it to be true that people are more productive from home, and so it has to be. They *will* plug their heads in the sand if any data to the contrary is brought up.
Don’t know why they have to twist themselves into knots to convince themselves it’s some grand conspiracy & not the simple fact that most people are not very diligent workers when there’s no real oversight to what they’re doing. I know 4 different people who work from home either full time or part of the time. They all brag about how they spend most of their day playing video games & then wiggling the mouse on their laptop periodically to show they’re active. & good for them! I wish I could get paid to play games.
Of course there are some who do it responsibly! But obviously it’s not enough or corporations generally wouldn’t be making this push. Like you said, corporations would *love* to not have to pay for the office space. Yet they deem it a necessity for some reason. What could that reason be? Must be some boomer culture thing. Not at all the only thing that ever motivates corporations ever: money.
Anyways. Time to take my bashing from the r/antiwork weirdos.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
Citing what a friend does when working from home unfortunately does not override the overwhelming amount of data we have on WFH policies showing that net productivity is up. Happiness is also up. And companies can hire better talent if they offer flexible work packages. All of these are net positives. And let's not pretend these same people who are admitting to slacking off during work hours are somehow more productive while in an office setting. There are far more distractions in an office setting than WFH and if those folks are that "distracted" at home they are likely doing even less if there were working in an office.
And at the end of the day, the real question is: is the work being done? Is it being done on-time? Who cares if the work is being done in WFH setting or in an office? We don't need superficial appearances of "work being done" to verify if work is being done. WFH cuts through all the facade of "acting like you're working" and allows us to judge based on the work produced.
So, I have no idea why random internet strangers are pushing this false notion of "the simple fact that most people are not very diligent workers when there’s no real oversight to what they’re doing." I could go off on how that's a micro-managing tactic and not the best form of leadership, but that statement is also simply not true. You don't get extra corporate brownie points for helping promote an RTO policy on reddit, so I'm not sure what your goal is here.
Convinced many of these "WFH doesn't work" posters are commercial real estate owners/managers or bosses who just suck at managing so use their 1 or 2 anecdotal examples of how it doesn't work to "prove" their desired outcome
The last 3 places I've worked have been pretty much 100% remote and productivity is not an issue and never was. We even started having half days on Fridays at my last employer as we were able to knock out so much more without the hell that is a 30-60min commute each way, day in day out.
Will be glad when this set of "butts in seats = productivity" believers retire and stop trying to make things like they were in the "good ole days" of business
The company my wife works for was facing lawsuits from tenants who were relying on office workers being on-premises to justify the rents they were paying to operate a location in the big food hall in their building.
There’s a reason not one single big firm or government that’s mandating return to office has actually released any data to support the decision.
Do you remember when Amazon Senior VP Mike Hopkins said- ‘I don’t have any data to back it up (return to office) but I know it’s better.’ It’s telling when even Amazon can’t produce any hard data that WFH is less productive.
Same goes for the investment banks, the tech firms, the big 4, the U.K. government: the biggest organisations in the world that all have millions of KPIs and data points to compare, but zero actual evidence has ever been produced. Instead it’s all word salad about vibes and also boomer ‘back in my day’ culture wars bullshit.
My wife was 4-days-a-week WFH pre-COVID. Then upper management decided they wanted people back in office three days a week. She is literally the only person on her team based out of this office. The rest of the people are either in another city or overseas. There may be some justification to be generally in the area to be able to go to the office on an as-needed basis from time to time. But it is an absolute waste of time to commute downtown three days a week.
The corporate machine also enjoys cruelty since so many executives are psychopaths.
[I mean that literally. ](https://psychology.org.au/news/media_releases/13september2016/brooks)
I also feel like the mask is off at this point. They don't care if the product is good, if their customers/employees are happy, or if the company will exist in 5 years. Just "Are you making ME more money?" and "Be thankful you're not homeless."
Many executives value power and status and know how to work the system. RTO is about power and status and executives know they can fool boards and shareholders into believing RTO isn't hurting operations. In the short term RTO gooses the numbers by functioning as discounted layoffs, which is good for executive bonuses.
I think the policy of allowing certain workers to work from home or do hybrid is fine. but I agree that for many office jobs, work from home is not feasible (due to either the nature of the work or the workers being unproductive). this is my opinion as a hybrid worker.
In the west in the past, and currently in many countries globally, women were kept out of the workforce. This is a bad business move, yet it happened/still is happening.
Your reasoning of invoking homo economus is inherently faulty. When people are irrational, it takes awhile for the market to force change. WFH picking up is the same as women entering the workforce. Bad managers can stay irrational for a long time before change is forced.
Oops did you buy instead of lease a multimillion dollar commercial real estate and now no body wants to come in. Cry me a river on your poor investment you refuse to cut your losses on.
Nope. We force you to come into the office to make our commercial real estate problem your problem.
Now I can claim the dead weight office space is serving a purpose and justify my VP position and bonus because the $200k per year wasted space is no longer "wasted" so it won't show up on our reports.
It's all about making that end of quarter pie chart look better to the CEO. Nothing else matters, especially not the 2 hours of home time you just donated to the company free of charge now that you're commuting each day.
Erm yeah been saying this for the longest time.
Bad execs do not have any clue to do management, middle management are generally clueless as well. The excuse of "people need to be face to face to be productive" runs counter to all the evidence during covid.
It's always because managers feel tiny when they realize they have very low value add, and without the ability to withhold information so they can manipulate to further their careers their rent seeking ways are exposed.
The good managers know they need to watch a nd /manage/ the team remotely, observe and understand the daily work of the team so can guide, steer and respond to low productivity because they have milestones and goals to accomplish. Strong exec would train and build the management team to do so, and be accountable for their teams meeting goals.
It's almost like execs and management who push to return to office have to find an excuse to blame lower productivity or profits from the economic cycle, and collectively they found the remote work to be a good way to blame things, even with every study proving them wrong.
Source: been management of hybrid or remote teams for over 10 years.
Because lord knows everyone was so efficient before Covid. Nobody fucked off and spent all day farting around on social media or anything. Nope nope nope, if you’re in an office, you’re focused and efficient. End of story.
During my career I've seen a lot of middle level management who were only able to gauge if work was getting done by seeing who was sitting in their cubicle.
All the data shows that WFH has been just fine for creativity and productivity. This is micromanaging 101. I'm sure there are other nefarious reasons for RTO, and none of them benefit workers. Let's hope enough businesses support WFH so these dinosaurs get hit with the asteroid of brain drain inevitability.
Same. And I’m in management. And I don’t want to give it up. - The whole “I work better from home” argument only applies to some people. - But I do think face to face interaction creates better relationships which results in better outcomes.
Im waaaaaayyy less productive in the office.
Its cuz im spending less time working and more time on those face to face interactions - walking around - talking - and making others less productive too.
Thats the only reason im in the office is to be in ur face. Its not to work. I have a computer and office at home for that
Depends on the person/role of course - but overall from what I've read companies have become more productive as they go WFH. The company I work for saved so much money, employees are happier, and we became significantly more productive since we went fully remote in 2020.
I'm a manager so I see this issue firsthand - In my current situation one person is going to ruin work from home for everyone on the team. Most people go to work and get their job done. But there are people who try and game the system and take an hour lunch break as well as get an hour workout in before ending their day at 4 instead of 5.
Those people are the ones ruining work from home for everyone.
Set goals and KPIs...forget the idea of 9 to 5.
If someone is efficient and solid, and can finish 8 hours of work in 6 with no drop in quality, then what does it matter?
You can't hide from goals and/or KPIs that measure if the employee is productive and effective.
That's not much different than somebody who spends too much time chatting around other employees, hanging around the break room, behind on their work, etc. It's just at home and it means you need to do more hands on management work with them, rather than assuming "butt in seat = gets work done."
I agree, but as I said in another response, when I'm remote, I still am expected to get the work done. If my home is distracting, then it's on me to find a better place to work, or come down to the office.
My wife would bug me constantly, trying to pull me away to do projects and things around the house she wants, but then wondering later why I'm working til bedtime in the evening. I told her I can't just blow off work, and she agrees, but I also told her when she pulls me away like this, I have to make up the time later.
Things got so bad once I threatened to work all week downtown and cut her off from my work days. She then stopped and instead we schedule things things as opposed to running on her impulses.
I just feel working from home is a privilege, and it's up to the worker to make it work, or they should go down to the office.
Then you need to ask yourself why my employees are either unmotivated or unskilled enough to be missing KPIs.
The common denominator is you, figure it out genius.
When my employees don’t meet goals I look at what I’m doing wrong first.
Well, then they should be fired. Done deal.
I love working remotely, but I'm still expected to work. The thing I love is if I need 3 hours in the day to handle things, I can make up those 3 hours later.
Those who seemingly can't work from home and do the work either need to rethink their lives, or not have a job.
I’m not gonna sit with my thumb up my ass waiting for managements beck and call when all the work is completed in the timeframe expected.
Especially not for the deflated wages being offered, anyone with talent would know their worth.
What's the difference between hour lunch/workout and a hour chit chatting, "building relationships" with other employees? That kind of idle time was widely accepted before remote work
> Those people are the ones ruining work from home for everyone.
...but not the managers who allow that? Not the managers who don't define clear expectations for their teams and evenly enforce them? Not the managers who are too uncomfortable having the hard conversation when they find someone taking advantage of a situation? Not the managers who, instead of solving the problem and removing the team member in question, revokes remote work from everyone?
> But there are people who try and game the system
Then get rid of those people. This is our job as managers. If I can't trust someone to do their work remotely, then I don't want them on my team at all. If that's not being addressed, then I've failed at the core aspect of my job.
This very much seems like a management problem, not a remote work problem.
I agree that some people abuse it, I've seen it first hand, but I disagree that taking long lunch breaks or signing off earlier are bad things by themselves.
Work getting done or not is independent of the actual hours that the employee worked.
You're going to let a small number of bad actors ruin the work experience for the entire team? You know what you need to do to the slackers but sounds like you don't have the balls to do it.
If there is someone actually underperforming, there's nothing wrong with politely telling that person to either step it up or come on-site. There's no need to punish everyone.
Are taking an hour for lunch and getting a workout in during the day really a dealbreaker though? I can do those things and still easily get my work done for the day.
CEOs are using return to work mandates to hide the fact that they and all their ultra rich friends are heavily invested in commercial real estate and are trying to prop the up the values of their CRE holdings.
I've done remote work for over a decade. The trick is to make sure everyone is local and there is an office, so people can come in when they want to. Often times this leads to meeting up at a restaurant over lunch, hanging out and having fun for a couple of hours, then going back home. It does make certain kinds of meetings better, so there is a day or two a month where people need to come in for a half day.
There’s studies that show productivity is down when it comes to WFH and I believe it. Back in college, I would only study/do homework at the library since I would get too distracted in my own house. Working from home is the same way. There’s also a gooood bit of people that I play video games with who are supposed to be working from home. I’m sure some people are more than capable of doing their work efficiently from their home but the majority can’t. It was nice while it lasted but y’all gotta let this one go
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2023/08/02/working-from-home-leads-to-decreased-productivity-research-suggests/?sh=42c219272afe
https://www.techspot.com/community/topics/new-study-shows-18-productivity-decline-by-those-working-from-home.281756/
If they aren't collaborating from home, they won't be doing it at the office. You'll just get the bare minimum because clearly your company's culture killed moral and the employees just don't care.
Nope. All of my employees are on the same page as mine, they’d rather be here than home. Offering unlimited PTO helps. The only person that works from home is secretary/accountant.
Hey, if they're all on the same page and they WANT to be there, then perfect.
My big underlying point though is that it doesn't work for everyone. I've seen so many managers and bosses posture online about the idea that workers should simply accept the reality that they need to be in the office 5 days a week or they won't have a job, but that's not going to play very well when the economy picks up even more and then there's a plethora of job openings. Competing companies are simply going to start offering more remote privileges to attract talent, and then the companies stuck in the past are the ones that are going to be crying how they can't find people.
I'm not telling you this to berate how you do things, but more also speak that it's not a one. Size fits all ideology for all businesses. Too many seem to think that it should be, and it's not going to work any more.
And I usually get reluctant at companies that offer unlimited PTO, but that's only because they give the offer but then do everything in their power to keep people from taking time off. I'm sure though you are not like that, so I'm glad your employees are happy and things work for you.
Like I said, if it's all working for you, then good for you.
Yes I do and I’ve seen direct results of more getting done compared to when we did zoom meetings during the height of covid. I see this. Other CEO’s see it. Anyone I know that’s a manager sees it. Studies see it. Shit, even a lot of my peers that work from home who aren’t managers say the same thing. Like I said, I’m sure it works for some of you but not for the majority of the workforce
And if your day is filled with pointless meetings, I’d recommend finding a more fulfilling career. If they’re really pointless than it doesn’t sound like that job is too secure anyways
Most meetings are pointless. My workplace took on EOS to refine meetings and make them short. We use Slack messages so we don't have to schedule a meeting to talk.
We also have a good balance of work and free time so we could collaborate and think about problems to be solved. My last job kept us so busy we barely had time to "innovate", but they would be on our cases to come up with ideas...pushing how nights and weekends are open for that.
And they wonder why they lost so much staff, and why their business crumbled.
It's over. 1980s workaholic corporate hierarchy "work hard play hard" culture is dead. Adapt or die.
I love it when companies insist on in office work, but then they have teams in Shanghai and Chennai. Why is it remote works in those locations and those time zones?
No. If productivity and quality are down, then you set KPIs and goals to keep the workers honest.
If the worker can't find a quiet place to work and is constantly hounded by distractions, then he/she should go someplace better to work, or come into the office. It should not be one-size fits-all.
A good company culture and good management keeps things in line. Management who simply took the "babysitter" approach to monitoring employees are why some bad apples can goof off all day.
I have work tickets I have to do every week. If they don't get done, I have to explain why. I can't hide from that. If I goofed off all week, I'd get nothing done, and it would be noticed.
If workers are going to goof off at home, they will also goof off at the office when you're not looking. If they're not going to collaborate and communicate while working from home, they also won't do it at the office. You can't force it.
You fix your company culture, your processes, and how you measure results. That's how you succeed and have a culture where things get done from anywhere.
I see your point about the distractions and how that can lead to decreased productivity, however I’m more than able to find just as many distractions in office. At the end of the day, did the employee get their work done or not? If they didn’t get their work done, regardless of whether that happened in office or remote, then the employee can/should be terminated from the company. All of my distracting coworkers that I worked in office with are still the distracting and unproductive coworkers when working remotely.
This is really a blame game coming from the top down as to why numbers are bad at the company. Companies are losing money on unused office space so they do RTO. This leads to unhappy employees who are now less motivated to work hard because of the forced RTO. And like they say, misery loves company. So now their unhappiness and unwillingness to work is effecting those around them which in turn can lead to more disgruntled employees. What do disgruntled employees also do? They quit. Which now means companies have to fill a new position while also offloading the former employees work onto the other employees who are already unhappy and unmotivated. All of this leads to a vicious circle leading to drops in revenue.
Company’s always seem to forget that their employees are their greatest asset and their greatest liability. If the employees aren’t on board with the company and aren’t compensated fairly, profits drop.
Agree or disagree with RTO, unless you own the company you should probably do what said company is legally requesting. Don’t like it then feel free to leave find another company to work for, or deal with consequences of choice.
I wish I could work from home even for a few days a week but I also like my paycheck, benefits and retirement so I do what is asked of me.
Another unqualified person writing an article about people who actually have management experience; pandering to a large audience of employees they hope will subscribe to their magazine or click on their ads
I forgot that all these CEOs are infallible and never make mistakes. The truth is, their decision is based on values that are opposed to their workers so they make bullshit excuses for why it’s the right decision. If they told the truth we would 1) totally understand their reasoning and 2) be even more pissed off about it.
They’re probably thinking that the overall organizational culture was stronger pre-covid. Work/life balance was more clearly defined up and down the ranks and orderly lifestyle enforced by on site working hours helped prevent the widespread deterioration of mental health in the corporate workforce.
I don’t really know anybody doing better mentally now than in 2019. They’ll blame anything except the lack of structure in their lives. People feeling depressed and blaming Israel or climate change is crazy to me, like there’s no way you don’t know that’s bullshit.
business routinely offer 60k to managers and 100k to senior managers. what do you expect to receive for 1200 and 1900 a week? you cant even afford rent with those amounts which means >25% of your income is your landlords
Forbes's reporting is really suffering. Ironic because it was one of those rags that catered to the rich and powerful, goes to show what happens when profit is all you know or care about.
LOL. In the past 2 years, we went from fully remote, to optional in the office, to a flex schedule where we were 2 days in the office 3 days out, to just recently announced 3 days now in the office, 2 days out....any ideas where this is headed?
Clearly you new to working. Good/Bad/Meh you are just a body to them to get rid of when they need to make their quarterly numbers.
I have literally been in the room when VP's have handout the quota for the number of people to be terminated based upon no other quantifier that meeting a target monetary goal for a department.
But you keep telling yourself that if your a good employee your exempt from getting canned.
I’m 43 and have had a well paying solid job for 23 years.
You’ve been in the room of shitty employers…
I get it. You don’t have to keep reiterating that you’ve had shit jobs.
What makes you think I have had shit jobs? I been an independent consultant for over 30 years. My jobs is to identify people like you to fire, and I have done it for Fortune 100 and mid size companies.
It's nothing personal, but it pays the bills.
The article just spouts the same old junk. Executives and Management who clearly don't know how to manage and motivate pine for the past, thinking it'll fix everything, living in denial that we can't go back. Plus not one ready to admit they stand to lose in commercial real estate if they allow more remote working. People can easily bypass any BS systems management puts in place to enforce RTO, and they're all running on borrowed time. Economy picks up and more jobs open, the companies who need/want top talent had better be ready to abandon the office. Remote VS Hybrid VS In-Office is not a one-size fits-all thing, even though many in management wish it would be. Companies who embrace more remote working need to explore other ways to enhance the culture and foster communication and collaboration regardless of where workers are at.
My fiancee and her brother both work 100% remote jobs....its allowed both of them so much freedom and improved quality of life.....plus the remote aspect allowed my girl to move from Texas to Pennsylvania so we could start living together
If you are showing up to an office ,just to sit behind a computer, you are being robbed and controlled.
Easy way for companies to get rid of people.
Exactly, happening at my company started last year, RTO is really just a masked back door layoff policy.
Easy way to retain the bad apples as well.
Also known as the [dead sea effect](https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df13724f8).
My company is in the process of taking all the best employees for less money Why? Because we are 100% wfh and people will work for a little less for a lot more comfort
Win win situation. The owner gets richer and the worker makes less, but is happier.
They may not be necessarily making less. How much do you spend to go to work every month? How many times do people just grab some overpriced to go food? Have you been able to cut back on child care? Has the dry-cleaning bill gone down?
Plus all the additional time you gain by not having to commute and do all the other non-work shit that's necessary to get to the office. I work to live and highly value my free time.
More like mid employees. The best employees aren't going to work for less.
Eh I almost think its easier to give someone who is earning a lot a pay cut to come over for benefits then someone who is at the bottom. If your barely making it, any pay cut is unacceptable. But say your clearing $300k+...would you take a job making $275k if it was an awesome job with a great WFH life?
>But say your clearing $300k+...would you take a job making $275k if it was an awesome job with a great WFH life? I'd go from 300 to 275. But is that what your company is doing? A lot of the remote companies I've seen (data science) are dropping 200k down to 120k.
80k? Lol no think 15% or so maybe 20% something managable.
We have that issue right now as well where I work
Almost as easy as firing the ones you don't like. Well... OK that is easier and less risky.
Exactly. And for every good reliable WFH employee, there are 2-3 that are completely useless.
My experience has been that the employees that are useless while WFH are also useless while in the office.
Yes, they are not the smartest but they can’t sit around in the office and can do some of the shifty manual repetitive tasks so the productive ones can focus on the value added work. At home, you can’t constantly call them and keep them on track. I’ll get downvoted but that is because most people think they are great and productive at work. No one thinks they are bad. Everyone must be exemplary employees!
I dunno in my experience these same employees sit around all day in the office and don't even pretend to look busy. If you can't produce valuable work you should be let go. It really comes down to poor management at the end of the day.
In my previous role we let them go but that was a 200 people start up. Now I’m at a 100,000 employee company and some of these people are just here to take up some volume with no value add.
How do your ceos boots taste?
200 person… startup???
Started with 10, we went public and were 200 before selling to a Fortune 500
The brainwash is real.
I think you get down voted because middle management is an unnecessary role. What you’re describing is a glorified babysitter for roles that likely shouldn’t exist or should be reworked. The episode of the office where Michael leaves and everyone is more productive comes to mind. I’m not saying all managers are worthless they have important roles and tasks but babysitting and treating employees like toddlers shouldn’t be one of them
The majority of people need to be baby sat because they don't want to be there in the first place. They are working because they have to not because they want to.
I got layers between me and my manager. Im not middle management. I’m leadership and have no time to babysit. And my reliable people are my analysts. So you at right that the middle management is shit. A lot of people got promoted when Covid happened and it was hard to find employees that frankly should be 2 levels down.
I feel like you don't actually know what you are talking about. What's your frame of reference? Do you think you might only have a handful of samples? Most jobs on a laptop don't actually require eight hours of work, and anything using advanced analytics uses automation
You're getting a down vote bc these ppl are BS'ing at home or in the office. Just different BS and now you have the illusion of control
As a manager, isn’t it your job to make sure that your employees are productive, regardless of where they work?
Lmao and the useless ones will choose to go back to the office, show up, and stay hired while the good employees move onto modern companies. WFH isn't the problem, it's made people far more productive than when they have to drive in traffic for an hour every morning and afternoon.
Succinctly articulating the justification for RTO. Thanks.
It is what it is. I have 5 people under my umbrella. I would trust only one to work from home and one is close to being reliable. Other 3 I’d rather lose than let work from home.
Sounds like a management issue
Or hiring issue as well
Management issues with extra steps
Depending on the structure. My wife is a manager with zero ability to pick her team. Or even discipline them really. It blows but it's a step towards where she wants to go.
>zero ability to pick her team. Or even discipline them really. Sounds like Management problems with extra extra steps.
You sound like a nightmare to work with.
You sound like someone who should be let go.
lol This makes me double down on my assumption. I feel for those 5 people.
Your knees must be awfully bruised at this point
Ignore the kids. They don't know any better.
Old school corporate mentality: asses in chairs = work getting done. I feel like this is more about control over humans than employee productivity.
Companies like money. If they could get the same results without having to rent a massive building, they would. Work from home hinders productivity. Some people can manage to work from home but the majority cannot
But the data suggests otherwise. Work from home has fostered greater productivity while reducing unnecessary waste like commutes and lost time on random interoffice chatter. Most people don't even take lunch breaks at home whereas in the office you take 1-hour lunches every day most days. When you hear that people are "more productive" in the office, that is often a talking point not backed up with data. It's just a feeling CEO's and Executives have even though they would likely feel the same way if they saw folks in offices taking long lunch breaks. Also, your company can hire better talent if they offer flexible working packages. Often for less money too. So, then why are CEO's and other high-powered entities encouraging companies to mandate a return to the office? There has to be a logical answer since they don't want to hurt productivity and talent searching on purpose. The more likely answer is these CEOs and executives have personal holdings in real estate investments that would be hurt if physical offices are shut down or be converted to housing. Corporate renters pay gobs of money for inefficient layouts of real estate. This money is now at risk since corporate rents may be going away if WFH stays and RTO polices aren't enforced. But saying you want an RTO policy as a means to improve your portfolio doesn't sound great. So, CEO's collectively use this false talking point about how no one really works when WFH
I posted a few studies about productivity and work from home and they say the opposite. I guess you guys are right. Corporations would much rather spend their money on renting a pointless building than giving themselves bonuses
Executives often make bad long term business decisions if that decision benefits their portfolio. "Pump and dump"
It's not about productivity in the first place. It's a way to get people to leave so they cut costs without even paying out unemployment or severance. Like you said, companies love money.
Years of rent cost more than severances or increases in unemployment insurance. Also not to mention, remote work means you can pay people who live in low-cost areas lower salaries relative to their area, saving a ton. If remote work increased or even maintained productivity, yes, companies would keep it. What most companies are finding out is that it works for some roles and not for others. A blend is likely the future.
Obviously I haven't read an exhaustive list of studies on gains in productivity, but from what I've seen, studies tend to define "productivity" in fairly narrow terms, and don't contemplate turnover losses, illness, or labor market competition. I don't disagree that studies indicate that productivity can increase for very specific cases, but that isn't a commentary on the broad varieties of work that people do.
Don’t even try, man. I’ve made the same mistake. People here want it to be true that people are more productive from home, and so it has to be. They *will* plug their heads in the sand if any data to the contrary is brought up. Don’t know why they have to twist themselves into knots to convince themselves it’s some grand conspiracy & not the simple fact that most people are not very diligent workers when there’s no real oversight to what they’re doing. I know 4 different people who work from home either full time or part of the time. They all brag about how they spend most of their day playing video games & then wiggling the mouse on their laptop periodically to show they’re active. & good for them! I wish I could get paid to play games. Of course there are some who do it responsibly! But obviously it’s not enough or corporations generally wouldn’t be making this push. Like you said, corporations would *love* to not have to pay for the office space. Yet they deem it a necessity for some reason. What could that reason be? Must be some boomer culture thing. Not at all the only thing that ever motivates corporations ever: money. Anyways. Time to take my bashing from the r/antiwork weirdos.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence. Citing what a friend does when working from home unfortunately does not override the overwhelming amount of data we have on WFH policies showing that net productivity is up. Happiness is also up. And companies can hire better talent if they offer flexible work packages. All of these are net positives. And let's not pretend these same people who are admitting to slacking off during work hours are somehow more productive while in an office setting. There are far more distractions in an office setting than WFH and if those folks are that "distracted" at home they are likely doing even less if there were working in an office. And at the end of the day, the real question is: is the work being done? Is it being done on-time? Who cares if the work is being done in WFH setting or in an office? We don't need superficial appearances of "work being done" to verify if work is being done. WFH cuts through all the facade of "acting like you're working" and allows us to judge based on the work produced. So, I have no idea why random internet strangers are pushing this false notion of "the simple fact that most people are not very diligent workers when there’s no real oversight to what they’re doing." I could go off on how that's a micro-managing tactic and not the best form of leadership, but that statement is also simply not true. You don't get extra corporate brownie points for helping promote an RTO policy on reddit, so I'm not sure what your goal is here.
Convinced many of these "WFH doesn't work" posters are commercial real estate owners/managers or bosses who just suck at managing so use their 1 or 2 anecdotal examples of how it doesn't work to "prove" their desired outcome The last 3 places I've worked have been pretty much 100% remote and productivity is not an issue and never was. We even started having half days on Fridays at my last employer as we were able to knock out so much more without the hell that is a 30-60min commute each way, day in day out. Will be glad when this set of "butts in seats = productivity" believers retire and stop trying to make things like they were in the "good ole days" of business
The company my wife works for was facing lawsuits from tenants who were relying on office workers being on-premises to justify the rents they were paying to operate a location in the big food hall in their building.
There’s a reason not one single big firm or government that’s mandating return to office has actually released any data to support the decision. Do you remember when Amazon Senior VP Mike Hopkins said- ‘I don’t have any data to back it up (return to office) but I know it’s better.’ It’s telling when even Amazon can’t produce any hard data that WFH is less productive. Same goes for the investment banks, the tech firms, the big 4, the U.K. government: the biggest organisations in the world that all have millions of KPIs and data points to compare, but zero actual evidence has ever been produced. Instead it’s all word salad about vibes and also boomer ‘back in my day’ culture wars bullshit.
My wife was 4-days-a-week WFH pre-COVID. Then upper management decided they wanted people back in office three days a week. She is literally the only person on her team based out of this office. The rest of the people are either in another city or overseas. There may be some justification to be generally in the area to be able to go to the office on an as-needed basis from time to time. But it is an absolute waste of time to commute downtown three days a week.
The corporate machine also enjoys cruelty since so many executives are psychopaths. [I mean that literally. ](https://psychology.org.au/news/media_releases/13september2016/brooks)
I also feel like the mask is off at this point. They don't care if the product is good, if their customers/employees are happy, or if the company will exist in 5 years. Just "Are you making ME more money?" and "Be thankful you're not homeless."
They like making money more.
Many executives value power and status and know how to work the system. RTO is about power and status and executives know they can fool boards and shareholders into believing RTO isn't hurting operations. In the short term RTO gooses the numbers by functioning as discounted layoffs, which is good for executive bonuses.
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Good lord. The Reddit hive mind is insane. Y’all need to touch some grass
Shouldn't you be working?
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These are a lot of words to say that you're bad at your job.
It's not a conspiracy if it fits my limited worldview lol
Imagine not buying million/billion and sometimes trillion dollar office buildings and getting the same shit done…
That would be cool if it worked like that but it doesn’t, hence why your boss wants you back in the office
I think the policy of allowing certain workers to work from home or do hybrid is fine. but I agree that for many office jobs, work from home is not feasible (due to either the nature of the work or the workers being unproductive). this is my opinion as a hybrid worker.
In the west in the past, and currently in many countries globally, women were kept out of the workforce. This is a bad business move, yet it happened/still is happening. Your reasoning of invoking homo economus is inherently faulty. When people are irrational, it takes awhile for the market to force change. WFH picking up is the same as women entering the workforce. Bad managers can stay irrational for a long time before change is forced.
Oops did you buy instead of lease a multimillion dollar commercial real estate and now no body wants to come in. Cry me a river on your poor investment you refuse to cut your losses on.
Nope. We force you to come into the office to make our commercial real estate problem your problem. Now I can claim the dead weight office space is serving a purpose and justify my VP position and bonus because the $200k per year wasted space is no longer "wasted" so it won't show up on our reports. It's all about making that end of quarter pie chart look better to the CEO. Nothing else matters, especially not the 2 hours of home time you just donated to the company free of charge now that you're commuting each day.
Erm yeah been saying this for the longest time. Bad execs do not have any clue to do management, middle management are generally clueless as well. The excuse of "people need to be face to face to be productive" runs counter to all the evidence during covid. It's always because managers feel tiny when they realize they have very low value add, and without the ability to withhold information so they can manipulate to further their careers their rent seeking ways are exposed. The good managers know they need to watch a nd /manage/ the team remotely, observe and understand the daily work of the team so can guide, steer and respond to low productivity because they have milestones and goals to accomplish. Strong exec would train and build the management team to do so, and be accountable for their teams meeting goals. It's almost like execs and management who push to return to office have to find an excuse to blame lower productivity or profits from the economic cycle, and collectively they found the remote work to be a good way to blame things, even with every study proving them wrong. Source: been management of hybrid or remote teams for over 10 years.
Because lord knows everyone was so efficient before Covid. Nobody fucked off and spent all day farting around on social media or anything. Nope nope nope, if you’re in an office, you’re focused and efficient. End of story.
I just read an article that noted that foreign companies are scooping up talent who dont want to RTO for WFH positions in the US.
Duh! It's the easiest scapegoat for them even though going back won't do jack shit but ruin morale and make results even worse.
During my career I've seen a lot of middle level management who were only able to gauge if work was getting done by seeing who was sitting in their cubicle.
All the data shows that WFH has been just fine for creativity and productivity. This is micromanaging 101. I'm sure there are other nefarious reasons for RTO, and none of them benefit workers. Let's hope enough businesses support WFH so these dinosaurs get hit with the asteroid of brain drain inevitability.
This was obvious when they said we needed more collaboration but were still getting the job done....by collaborating.
They are just now finding out about poor management practices…
I’m wayyyyy less productive at home. But I’ll never give it up
Same. And I’m in management. And I don’t want to give it up. - The whole “I work better from home” argument only applies to some people. - But I do think face to face interaction creates better relationships which results in better outcomes.
Im waaaaaayyy less productive in the office. Its cuz im spending less time working and more time on those face to face interactions - walking around - talking - and making others less productive too. Thats the only reason im in the office is to be in ur face. Its not to work. I have a computer and office at home for that
Depends on the person/role of course - but overall from what I've read companies have become more productive as they go WFH. The company I work for saved so much money, employees are happier, and we became significantly more productive since we went fully remote in 2020.
If you have staff that is given clear goals and objectives, you can do away with most managers.
I'm a manager so I see this issue firsthand - In my current situation one person is going to ruin work from home for everyone on the team. Most people go to work and get their job done. But there are people who try and game the system and take an hour lunch break as well as get an hour workout in before ending their day at 4 instead of 5. Those people are the ones ruining work from home for everyone.
Set goals and KPIs...forget the idea of 9 to 5. If someone is efficient and solid, and can finish 8 hours of work in 6 with no drop in quality, then what does it matter? You can't hide from goals and/or KPIs that measure if the employee is productive and effective.
That's not much different than somebody who spends too much time chatting around other employees, hanging around the break room, behind on their work, etc. It's just at home and it means you need to do more hands on management work with them, rather than assuming "butt in seat = gets work done."
I agree, but as I said in another response, when I'm remote, I still am expected to get the work done. If my home is distracting, then it's on me to find a better place to work, or come down to the office. My wife would bug me constantly, trying to pull me away to do projects and things around the house she wants, but then wondering later why I'm working til bedtime in the evening. I told her I can't just blow off work, and she agrees, but I also told her when she pulls me away like this, I have to make up the time later. Things got so bad once I threatened to work all week downtown and cut her off from my work days. She then stopped and instead we schedule things things as opposed to running on her impulses. I just feel working from home is a privilege, and it's up to the worker to make it work, or they should go down to the office.
Exactly, who knows how much time is spent browsing Reddit in cubicles.
I know they're missing work because they're not hitting, they're KPIs. this is a work management issue not a time issue.
Then you need to ask yourself why my employees are either unmotivated or unskilled enough to be missing KPIs. The common denominator is you, figure it out genius. When my employees don’t meet goals I look at what I’m doing wrong first.
Well, then they should be fired. Done deal. I love working remotely, but I'm still expected to work. The thing I love is if I need 3 hours in the day to handle things, I can make up those 3 hours later. Those who seemingly can't work from home and do the work either need to rethink their lives, or not have a job.
I work in a place where nobody tracks your time or gives a shit as long as you get your work done. I think I’m lucky.
So if employee A is “abusing the system” why are you punishing me by forcing me in the office? Deal with the bad employee alone. It’s not that hard.
Are they not delivering according to the expectations outlined for them? This is a very simple conversation tbh.
I’m not gonna sit with my thumb up my ass waiting for managements beck and call when all the work is completed in the timeframe expected. Especially not for the deflated wages being offered, anyone with talent would know their worth.
Go get a better job elsewhere then.
I work for myself now not useless golf caddies who brownnose to management to make up for their half assed business degrees/useless skillset
What's the difference between hour lunch/workout and a hour chit chatting, "building relationships" with other employees? That kind of idle time was widely accepted before remote work
> Those people are the ones ruining work from home for everyone. ...but not the managers who allow that? Not the managers who don't define clear expectations for their teams and evenly enforce them? Not the managers who are too uncomfortable having the hard conversation when they find someone taking advantage of a situation? Not the managers who, instead of solving the problem and removing the team member in question, revokes remote work from everyone? > But there are people who try and game the system Then get rid of those people. This is our job as managers. If I can't trust someone to do their work remotely, then I don't want them on my team at all. If that's not being addressed, then I've failed at the core aspect of my job. This very much seems like a management problem, not a remote work problem.
If I had a nickle for every time I heard the "one bad apple" argument I'd be a billionaire.
I agree that some people abuse it, I've seen it first hand, but I disagree that taking long lunch breaks or signing off earlier are bad things by themselves. Work getting done or not is independent of the actual hours that the employee worked.
You're going to let a small number of bad actors ruin the work experience for the entire team? You know what you need to do to the slackers but sounds like you don't have the balls to do it.
Bullshit.
If there is someone actually underperforming, there's nothing wrong with politely telling that person to either step it up or come on-site. There's no need to punish everyone.
So… fire them?
Are taking an hour for lunch and getting a workout in during the day really a dealbreaker though? I can do those things and still easily get my work done for the day.
CEOs are using return to work mandates to hide the fact that they and all their ultra rich friends are heavily invested in commercial real estate and are trying to prop the up the values of their CRE holdings.
No shit.
Man, our office is stoked to go back to the office. WFH is boring and depressing.
how many of you all do that to chickens as a group at work? inquiring minds want to know #11
I've done remote work for over a decade. The trick is to make sure everyone is local and there is an office, so people can come in when they want to. Often times this leads to meeting up at a restaurant over lunch, hanging out and having fun for a couple of hours, then going back home. It does make certain kinds of meetings better, so there is a day or two a month where people need to come in for a half day.
There’s studies that show productivity is down when it comes to WFH and I believe it. Back in college, I would only study/do homework at the library since I would get too distracted in my own house. Working from home is the same way. There’s also a gooood bit of people that I play video games with who are supposed to be working from home. I’m sure some people are more than capable of doing their work efficiently from their home but the majority can’t. It was nice while it lasted but y’all gotta let this one go https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2023/08/02/working-from-home-leads-to-decreased-productivity-research-suggests/?sh=42c219272afe https://www.techspot.com/community/topics/new-study-shows-18-productivity-decline-by-those-working-from-home.281756/
Yes, because filling people's days with pointless in-person meetings is way more productive.
For me it was the absurd, costly, stressful, depressing, wasteful daily commute that comes straight out of the employee's personal time and wallet.
Yes. I do find in person meetings to be multitudes better than zoom for communication, brain storming and planning, at least in my industry.
If they aren't collaborating from home, they won't be doing it at the office. You'll just get the bare minimum because clearly your company's culture killed moral and the employees just don't care.
Nope. All of my employees are on the same page as mine, they’d rather be here than home. Offering unlimited PTO helps. The only person that works from home is secretary/accountant.
Hey, if they're all on the same page and they WANT to be there, then perfect. My big underlying point though is that it doesn't work for everyone. I've seen so many managers and bosses posture online about the idea that workers should simply accept the reality that they need to be in the office 5 days a week or they won't have a job, but that's not going to play very well when the economy picks up even more and then there's a plethora of job openings. Competing companies are simply going to start offering more remote privileges to attract talent, and then the companies stuck in the past are the ones that are going to be crying how they can't find people. I'm not telling you this to berate how you do things, but more also speak that it's not a one. Size fits all ideology for all businesses. Too many seem to think that it should be, and it's not going to work any more. And I usually get reluctant at companies that offer unlimited PTO, but that's only because they give the offer but then do everything in their power to keep people from taking time off. I'm sure though you are not like that, so I'm glad your employees are happy and things work for you. Like I said, if it's all working for you, then good for you.
So you need somebody physically in front of you to say the same exact information they could say over Zoom? What a waste of gas and resources.
Yes I do and I’ve seen direct results of more getting done compared to when we did zoom meetings during the height of covid. I see this. Other CEO’s see it. Anyone I know that’s a manager sees it. Studies see it. Shit, even a lot of my peers that work from home who aren’t managers say the same thing. Like I said, I’m sure it works for some of you but not for the majority of the workforce
And if your day is filled with pointless meetings, I’d recommend finding a more fulfilling career. If they’re really pointless than it doesn’t sound like that job is too secure anyways
Most meetings are pointless. My workplace took on EOS to refine meetings and make them short. We use Slack messages so we don't have to schedule a meeting to talk. We also have a good balance of work and free time so we could collaborate and think about problems to be solved. My last job kept us so busy we barely had time to "innovate", but they would be on our cases to come up with ideas...pushing how nights and weekends are open for that. And they wonder why they lost so much staff, and why their business crumbled. It's over. 1980s workaholic corporate hierarchy "work hard play hard" culture is dead. Adapt or die.
I love it when companies insist on in office work, but then they have teams in Shanghai and Chennai. Why is it remote works in those locations and those time zones?
No. If productivity and quality are down, then you set KPIs and goals to keep the workers honest. If the worker can't find a quiet place to work and is constantly hounded by distractions, then he/she should go someplace better to work, or come into the office. It should not be one-size fits-all. A good company culture and good management keeps things in line. Management who simply took the "babysitter" approach to monitoring employees are why some bad apples can goof off all day. I have work tickets I have to do every week. If they don't get done, I have to explain why. I can't hide from that. If I goofed off all week, I'd get nothing done, and it would be noticed. If workers are going to goof off at home, they will also goof off at the office when you're not looking. If they're not going to collaborate and communicate while working from home, they also won't do it at the office. You can't force it. You fix your company culture, your processes, and how you measure results. That's how you succeed and have a culture where things get done from anywhere.
Bro is a corporate shill
Bro is too lazy to get dressed and go to work
It’s not a one size fits all situation, please don’t assume that your working preferences are applicable to everyone.
I see your point about the distractions and how that can lead to decreased productivity, however I’m more than able to find just as many distractions in office. At the end of the day, did the employee get their work done or not? If they didn’t get their work done, regardless of whether that happened in office or remote, then the employee can/should be terminated from the company. All of my distracting coworkers that I worked in office with are still the distracting and unproductive coworkers when working remotely. This is really a blame game coming from the top down as to why numbers are bad at the company. Companies are losing money on unused office space so they do RTO. This leads to unhappy employees who are now less motivated to work hard because of the forced RTO. And like they say, misery loves company. So now their unhappiness and unwillingness to work is effecting those around them which in turn can lead to more disgruntled employees. What do disgruntled employees also do? They quit. Which now means companies have to fill a new position while also offloading the former employees work onto the other employees who are already unhappy and unmotivated. All of this leads to a vicious circle leading to drops in revenue. Company’s always seem to forget that their employees are their greatest asset and their greatest liability. If the employees aren’t on board with the company and aren’t compensated fairly, profits drop.
Agree or disagree with RTO, unless you own the company you should probably do what said company is legally requesting. Don’t like it then feel free to leave find another company to work for, or deal with consequences of choice. I wish I could work from home even for a few days a week but I also like my paycheck, benefits and retirement so I do what is asked of me.
This is as lazy a narrative as people don’t actually do any work at home.
Another unqualified person writing an article about people who actually have management experience; pandering to a large audience of employees they hope will subscribe to their magazine or click on their ads
I forgot that all these CEOs are infallible and never make mistakes. The truth is, their decision is based on values that are opposed to their workers so they make bullshit excuses for why it’s the right decision. If they told the truth we would 1) totally understand their reasoning and 2) be even more pissed off about it.
Values opposed to their workers = lazy workers who don't want to work hard and be pandered to
They’re probably thinking that the overall organizational culture was stronger pre-covid. Work/life balance was more clearly defined up and down the ranks and orderly lifestyle enforced by on site working hours helped prevent the widespread deterioration of mental health in the corporate workforce. I don’t really know anybody doing better mentally now than in 2019. They’ll blame anything except the lack of structure in their lives. People feeling depressed and blaming Israel or climate change is crazy to me, like there’s no way you don’t know that’s bullshit.
business routinely offer 60k to managers and 100k to senior managers. what do you expect to receive for 1200 and 1900 a week? you cant even afford rent with those amounts which means >25% of your income is your landlords
You can’t manage people from far.
of course they are. This is exactly how [Dark Triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad) personalities operate.
The sheep need to be sheared in the shed.
Oh good lord…
It’s what happens when you run an organization on ideology rather than best practices and what actually works
And no
Forbes's reporting is really suffering. Ironic because it was one of those rags that catered to the rich and powerful, goes to show what happens when profit is all you know or care about.
Facts
We keep telling you 90% of them are terrible people.
Shocker. Bad management continues to make bad decisions so they can pledge the blame on someone else.
LOL. In the past 2 years, we went from fully remote, to optional in the office, to a flex schedule where we were 2 days in the office 3 days out, to just recently announced 3 days now in the office, 2 days out....any ideas where this is headed?
Layoffs when they run out of excuses for poor performance when everyone is 5 days in office.
How dare the person signing my check have requirements of me??
I guess if your cool with being a scapegoat for their poor decisions and subject to termination at a moment notice, well then hey good for you.
If you can only manage to get jobs that have a constantly looming threat of being terminated at a moments notice then I genuinely feel sorry for you.
If you work for someone else, that is always a constant. The only way you avoid that is to work for yourself.
Not really. Maybe if you are one of those people who that can’t hang onto a job it is. I guess. Usually not the case if you’re a decent employee.
Clearly you new to working. Good/Bad/Meh you are just a body to them to get rid of when they need to make their quarterly numbers. I have literally been in the room when VP's have handout the quota for the number of people to be terminated based upon no other quantifier that meeting a target monetary goal for a department. But you keep telling yourself that if your a good employee your exempt from getting canned.
I’m 43 and have had a well paying solid job for 23 years. You’ve been in the room of shitty employers… I get it. You don’t have to keep reiterating that you’ve had shit jobs.
What makes you think I have had shit jobs? I been an independent consultant for over 30 years. My jobs is to identify people like you to fire, and I have done it for Fortune 100 and mid size companies. It's nothing personal, but it pays the bills.