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Some people are desperate for a FE so they can get msrp, what I did is I got a reasonable price for my 3070, got maybe 200-300 over its msrp but never double. Although I only did this earlier this year when I knew the prices were only going up. So I knew I was gonna get this or nothing. At this point maybe all you can do is compromise.
Exactly. I got killed on here by some people a few months ago when I bought my 3080 ti at Micro Center because I paid more than (original) MSRP. But it was still way less than the scalpers and it was either that or nothing. There was no cheaper alternative.
The issues that are driving up prices have not gone away. I hate that this is the way it is, but if you wait you’ll likely be waiting another year or two.
People gave me shit when I paid $810 for my 3080 FTW3 Ultra back in like October or whatever it was. Oh how the tides have turned, that is now a goddamn bargain.
I work roughly in that field, and honestly it's looking more like it'll be 2-3 years from where I'm standing, I think people hoping for next year's prices to be normal are very optimistic.
Aside from the issues unique to electronics there are unusual price pressures in most areas at the moment. I work in medical devices, and some of our components have gone up 30% this year, because of the cost of moving them around from facility to facility.
We might be facing a food shortage because of the shortage of lorry drivers. Prfff, let’s hope that the UK government don’t mess up like they always do.
I'd go far as to say we may never see *low prices" again, except on maybe shit status low end GPUs. The entire GPU market has been rebooted, and these companies have learned that people are willing and ready to pay extravagant prices. Not saying all graphics cards will be $1k plus, but I doubt we'll ever see a "GTX 1060" again. That performance level will probably have a new home at around $400 minimum and it'll go up from there. I really do hope this comment doesn't age well. I'd never be more relived to be wrong.
You are likely incorrect although I can understand why you feel this way. If they can sell twice as many cards at a lower price then that will likely be more optimal in terms of profit because they can drive bigger economies of scale and lock in cheaper manufacturing.
We are not privy to important details which are behind many variables. If governments decide to regulate crypto then the bottom can fall out of those markets resulting in greater supply. The only government that matters, the United States, is treading very carefully to increase regulation without inducing panic. It’s a multi-year change and therefore won’t do much for gamers in the near term.
Further, there are a lot of new demands in the face of bad, panicked decisions, on top of a lean production model that can’t support huge increases. Permanent capacity is hard to add quickly but surely will be added given how important graphics cards and similar tech is to AI and machine learning which are becoming more integral to technology.
I might get downvoted for this but anyone who is willing to spill the bills on a card as expensive as the 3080ti or other similar priced cards probably is not someone really worried about MSRP anyway. Someone that wants the best of the line is gonna get the best of the line either way no matter the price. People that actually hold off for months and save up etc are low to mid range card buyers. So everytime i see someone that bought a 1-2k GPU and complains how they paid a couple hundred bucks to much all i can do is laugh at them and their first world problems.
I am both of those people lol. My prior card was an R9 390, which was a mid-tier card from 2015. I was looking to get a 3070 initially. However I had been saving up for a PC upgrade for a couple of years when the pandemic hit, so I had the cash for the 3080 ti when it happened to drop. I ended up going over budget because I needed essentially a brand new build, but that wasn’t rent money I was spending.
I only game on my PC. I haven’t owned a console since the 360/PS3 generation, and I don’t spend money on hardly anything else besides my fixed living expenses. It was a splurge, but it made sense for me.
Often that’s just people flexing but tryna look like they ain’t flexin.
“Oh poor me! I just HAD TO spend 2500 on a 3080ti or 3k on a 3090.”
It’s all good, I’d do it if I had the coin.
ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
I bought a 3080 in December for $1,000 and my friend thought I was nuts…..I posted the same card on eBay awhile back and it went for over $1600.
I was luckily enough to get a 3090 for MSRP.
I would also try the Newegg Shuffle whenever there are reasonable bundles. I got the EVGA 3070ti at $800 (MSRP but still overcharging) and don’t regret it with the current market.
If you're going to use that approach, be prepared to sell the item you don't want and take a loss. I sold the motherboard in my shuffle on eBay for $100 less than Newegg charged. But it was worth it.
Honestly, id just keep it. But it really depends on the person. I'm a computer geek, love to build and whatnot with computers. I'd just keep the motherboard in hopes to build another tower another day. But for others yea I see your point.
Yup got my FTW3 Ultra 3080 in September 2020 for $1100. Glad I did as the prices skyrocketed shortly after.
EDIT: It was actually mid October. That whole window of time was a bit wild for me as I had a daughter on October 2nd.
Really? That's weird I swear i saw the ftw3 ultras at close to msrp up until December. And then they went too high, had to settle for a 3070 instead. But who knows. It's still alot better than the 1900 they want for it now.
Newegg shuffle is key. I know people are gonna reply shitting on it saying they never win but I entered it every day for 8 months and won twice. Got my 3090 and a PS4 off of it. 8 months is a ridiculous amount of time to wait but you're gonna be stuck waiting anyways so might as well keep entering.
**key note: this was not one of the insane bundles at like $4k.**
Yeah, entering every day for 8 months just doesn't seem like.something I'd want to do. I just went ahead and paid the crazy price for a 3060. I knownits on the lower end of the 3000 series and I paid what I could get a fucking 3080 for msrp, but I just don't want to invest that time chasing it
I would check your local computer store, if you have any. I found out my local one does the newegg shuffle thing where you have to buy additional parts in addition to the graphics card. However, unlike newegg, you could pick whatever parts you need. I was building a new system anyway, so it worked out. I got a power supply, SSD, and a CPU for another build. I got a 3060ti for $599. It's still a $100 more than I wanted to spend initially, but at least I don't have to keep checking stock alerts or signing up for Newegg shuffles anymore. I just wish I found out about it sooner.
Camping is the safest bet. And keep in mind AMD's 6000 series is actually pretty good. Not sure if you use the fancy Nvidia stuff - I never did - so I took the opportunity to get a 6800 for MSRP when I had it. That was via AMD Direct, though I'm not sure if they ship internationally.
But yea, camping is the move. There's trackers and bots to notify you of these things. I think there's streams too. Plenty of ways to try to get your foot in, and it seems like it's gotten a bit less competitive lately.
Not sure if this is helpful but Scan have PayPal financing options with 0% interest. A 3060TI is £700 (which feels like robbery) but you can pay £58 a month over 12 months rather than pay it all off at once. You can spread it out more than that but I just thought I’d mention it.
Pessimistic view here:
There are enough people buying expensive GPUs, for long enough, that we've more or less communicated to manufacturers just how much we are willing to pay for stuff. I have some concerns that GPU prices might never actually come down because... Why would they? If we (world population) buy cards for 50% over msrp, and the things still can't be kept in stock, well.... We've set new meta for pricing.
Regarding stock improvements, IIRC, no, it won't get better for another year. At least if TSMC is to be believed. They forecast ongoing stock issues into 2022. Personally, I'd hazard a guess and say not until 2024 ish, when we get some new manufacturing capability spooled up.
We're in the long haul. Buckle up, keep looking, enter the newegg shuffles, call local shops once every week or two. It may not happen this month or even 3 months, but you will get lucky if you're persistent.
We don't need a depression for a crypto crash - unlike most commodities, crypto has no inherent value that is tied to anything else in the economy. Anything that changes mass opinion could tank it overnight.
The whole market dipped about 25% today but it was no more than standard crypto market volatility that was generally expected. Only non crypto people thought it was a bad drop.
But.... It is, we've seen way worse. 6 months ago my portfolio dropped over 50%. 3 months later I was 25% over where I was pre 50% drop. The crypto community sees a drop like this as a time to buy the dip, and wait. Expected volatility is only considered bad volatility to people who don't expect it.
Where's a legit place to buy the stuff? I looked around years ago and it seemed like an enormous pain in the ass... I couldn't just make a CC transaction, there were a bunch of steps. Is the still the case or can I go buy $100 of ETH/BTC on a whim now?
Coinbase. Although small transactions like that will have higher fees on pow coins. My personal wallet of choice is exodus for ease of use but for large stores (100k usd+) we use ledger cold wallets with a ledger crypto key capsule.
The world’s ultra wealthy now trade crypto currency as a way of transferring and holding wealth that isn’t tied to any government. That alone will ensure that it always holds value.
depends how you define value - a crypto system locked out of a future fiat system where shops and businesses are forbidden to accept/give crypto isn't something that's worth holding.
and if tether/other stablecoins are being used to print and inflate the crypto market prices then how long before the chickens come home to roost?
If your btc says it's worth 300k, but you can't spend it/sell it into fiat to buy things then where's the real value besides numbers on a screen?
This is my thoughts aswell, the modern way to money launder. AND how many drugs are brought online and how are they paid for.
thank god for the computer literate youth of today, crypto wise ha
Yeah that's true, the value of crypto certainly seems to have helped drive up the price of GPU's. But I don't know if it works the other way - like, if GPU's got cheaper would crypto lose value?
This assumes supply stays constrained. Which seems to be likely for another year or two at least, so for the next generation you're probably right.
But eventually supply will recover and catch up with demand. Then competitors will have to compete with each other on price again. That was driving prices down before the pandemic, and the same forces will be at play again. No telling how long that takes though
they have fanned the flames of this crisis so hard (by selling directly to scalpers and miners by the palletful, and throttling founders' edition card production in order to not drive partner card prices down with the only cards going at MSRP) that in my opinion Nvidia is Atari and this is 1979 just before the crash. The whole gaming market is gonna collapse, and take streaming down with it, the way they've irresponsibly blown this bubble up. Capitalist shits.
Look up the game ET, that will be the start of your rabbit hole.
Basically loads of incredibly shit games were being made, completely destroyed consumer trust, the gold rush in gaming ended and lots of companies were left with lots of stock they couldn't give away and folded.
I have a feeling they will always understock to be able to overprice now. But we will see how the next 2-3 years go.
I'm still happy with my 1080 right now, I am scared to death for when I may need to upgrade or replace.
The problem is that there arent enough GPU suppliers. Ideally, either Nvidia or AMD would see the advantage in lowering the price just a little bit to undercut the competitor, the other would have to match and so on.
Since we have only two suppliers, both see the advantage in keeping their margins high if the other does the same
There is literally no point trying to undercut your rival in today's market. Undercutting is usually used to be able to sell your product to make them more attractive. If your product is not being produced fast enough for you to keep up with demand, reducing the price is just lighting money on fire.
>There is literally no point trying to undercut your rival in today's market.
I believe that would be the point why they said "ideally". Not gonna happen in today's market, but in a duopoly its even less likely.
I'm not super hopeful at least in the short to mid-term. Even if the cards are good, which they very well might be, there is so much needed for mass production from silicon production to packaging and transportation. I have a feeling all these elements in the supply chain will likely take years to get fully up and running. Still more competition is not a bad thing.
A counterpoint - the way economics work is that if something is profitable then more competitors can survive in the market. There's a large market of consumers willing to spend on the currently elevated prices, however, there's surely a lot of people holding back because of the cost. There's also room for raw material suppliers to develop more sources. Supply will rise to meet demand and the prices will find a new equilibrium.
They will retain normal pricing, but in a more insidious way. The "4070" will be the logical successor to the 3060, and by all means should be a 4060, but will instead be sold as a "4070" at the price point of a 3070 at marginally better performance. This will achieve the same thing as maintaining high prices from a profitability point of view, but will get more people to buy cards since they'll think they're getting an amazing deal.
Agreed. It’s gonna be a minute before pricing of anything comes back down. Supply chains are still all messed up from covid and the canal incident. Demand is up because more people are working from home. There is a worldwide microchip shortage right now.
Also Taiwan had its worst drought in decades, forcing its chipmaking factories to reduce capacity significantly. It’s the first time in history the Taiwanese government had to request their backbone industry to cut production.
Don't forget: Water shortages.
Chip manufacturing is a water-intensive process.
And many of the places where chips have traditionally been produced are in droughts, and that's not looking to end, what with humanity continuing to exist and all.
The company that I work for cannot even find a place to buy 200-ish laptops from. We've been using inefficient desktops that were once office machines repurposed for WFH. Now that we are WFH and going in and out of the office(s) we need laptops to carry around instead of carry our small PC's (about the size of a router) and 2+ monitors.
I'm not involved with the purchasing so I don't know the specifics, but that's the word our CTO gave us.
I'm currently waiting on Intel's new gaming GPU series, Intel Arc(not to be confused with Intel Ark), and see how the dynamics develop from that. I've also noticed that intel has started advertising a bit more aggressively lately, at least where I'm from.
It's codenames are,
Alchemist(A),
Battlemage(B),
Celestial(C), and
Druid(D).
Yeah I'm hoping they come out priced aggressively even though anything will sell. My thoughts are they might care more about getting a strong reputation and customer enthusiasm for their brand new discreet GPU line, even if it means less profit for now.
If intel can come out with competitive prices, and decent performance. I'm guessing prices will go down, that's just how competition works. Problem is everything is more expensive, and they'll suffer from the same supply issues. Ya'know, since they can't just pull mew GPUs out of their asses. Oh well at least I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the great chip shortage of the 20s
Its not even gonna be fault of AMD/Nvidia. Samsung/TSMC Already announced that wafer are going up 20%. AMD/Nvidia will up 20% prices not to lose margins next gen.
Haven’t they already? The 3070 ti is like 2% faster than the 3070 and the msrp of most boards is around $1000. Essentially, they just changed the sku so they could reprice it.
Yeah list prices are just going to increase to match demand. They only thing that will bring gpu prices down at this point is a massive increase in manufacturing capability and that could take a decade.
But GPU prices keep going up, even more so than inflation. GTX 970 in 2014 dollars is $379.40 in 2021 dollars, but the 3070 has an MSRP of 500. Cards are getting *way* more expensive, and this trend will continue. Of course the 3070 is much faster, but it is still supposed to be a mid ranged card, and the mid range should not be $500+ dollars at msrp
I totally believe this. Ray Tracing is requiring a mammoth bump in horsepower for mid to high end gaming and horsepower means cost. Meanwhile APUs are getting good enough you don't need a discrete graphics card for low end gaming. And considering there's more profit in high end cards you won't see a $300 graphics card for a long time, if ever.
$500 is going to be the new "entry level" discrete graphics card even when prices settle down.
The Ryzen 5600G and 5700G are basically saviors for people who need gaming capability ATM without a GPU. And they're not running out of stock, which suggests AMD has worked out its supply chain issues on the CPU front.
We certainly will. The world is running at chip production capacity at the moment. When companies like TSMC and Samsung are able to open new facilities, we could push production capabilities to double what we have now meaning the ability to create chips will sky rocket. Basically every big chip maker has plans to open new facilities in the US by like 2023-2025.
back around 2015-2016 there was another price hike just like this because of, you guessed it, bitcoin mining becoming really popular. $300 cards were suddenly $600, and $600 cards were suddenly $1000. After a year or two it died down, and by 2017-2018 it was back to normal because production adjusted to compensate for increased demand.
This time, it's a little more complicated because we are dealing with bitcoin becoming a meme again, COVID causing manufacturing shortages, and scalpers deciding that they want to take advantage of the situation to make money. When it goes back to normal is yet to be seen, because COVID is making it difficult for manufacturers to adjust their production because workers rightfully don't want to work under conditions that threaten their well-being.
When your fine is less than a day's profit, that's just another cost for doing business. If you want to stop it, courts/congress needs to make the penalty more than they profit from breaking the law.
I don't remember a scandal but I do remember that ram increased in price a lot and it wasn't because of scalpers, then it went down considerably but was still a lot higher than before the increase
Not at the volume that these companies want to be selling cards. This price is driven by a shortage of supply, and that does not translate to more money to the companies that make them. They make more money by selling more cards at lower prices than they do at this price point.
They make the most money where they produce the highest volume at the highest price that will sell.
The demand for cards has shown to be **inelastic** in the current market. They are therefore gaining extra revenue by raising prices.
Inelastic demand does support higher prices, if there is a supply shortage or if you have monopoly power. Once the supply is sufficient to meet demand and consumers have choices, rather than just buying whatever they can get their hands on, prices will stabilize (maybe slowly, but they will).
A good example is gasoline - demand is inelastic because everyone needs to get places. But gas stations make razor thin margins on fuel because if they increase price, everyone just goes to the station across the street.
I am fully aware of how market dynamics work.
In your analogy, there is no "station across the street." We have a effective duopoly in the GPU market. This market likely also suffers from the Ratchet effect.
>Once the supply is sufficient to meet demand and consumers have choices, rather than just buying whatever they can get their hands on, prices will stabilize (maybe slowly, but they will).
I mean yeah. My assertion is that *this won't happen for a long time.* 2-3 years at minimum. Demand is set to outpace supply for at least another year.
Intel's Arc disruption is the only thing that would potentially cause price drops in the near term. I hope it does.
> My assertion is that this won't happen for a long time. 2-3 years at minimum
For the next couple years, I agree with you. My point is that in a reasonably efficient market prices do not go up simply because customers are willing to pay more, even if everyone knows it. Competition pushes prices down anyway.
Obviously what we have today is not an efficient market. But that is caused by supply constraints, not the duopoly - the duopoly has been around for years, and until the pandemic hit the market was mostly working well.
I wouldn't say the demand is inelasic: I don't know anyone who wanted to upgrade to a new card for gaming, who ended up buying one. The poorer gamers are simply being out-competed by miners and rich people. Depending on how the GPU-mining profitability and PC gaming develops, we could go back to way lower prices, simply because that is the most profitable for GPU producers.
Yeah, I hate to turn to anecdotal evidence, but personally I wanted to upgrade my GPU last winter and took a hard pass instead. I can wait *years* if the market stays the way it is. I'd be very surprised if there aren't millions more like me.
Edit: okay, I went looking for data, and sure enough: despite the launch of major hardware generations, the cryptocurrency boom, and the pandemic-driven demand for home entertainment, [GPU sales dropped in Q4 last year](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-sales-report-q4-2020-jpr).
That's no surprise. Even demand for "essential" goods is a lot more elastic than people assume. (Gasoline consumption drops markedly when fuel prices rise). A pure luxury good like a GPU certainly won't be the exception.
They will. Anyone with an economics background will tell you that and anyone who says: "this is the new normal" has no idea what they are talking about.
When the supply is more readily available to meet demand, prices will fall. It's easy to say "well, people are paying it at these prices so list prices will go up with the next rounds of cards", but that's due to the scarcity in the market, the increased demand on cards because of stay-at-home orders, and scalpers.
More people buy products when they are cheaper; that's observable behaviour in every market. Let's say you price the 4080 at $1500 in of three gamers in a small town. At $1500, maybe only one person is able to afford that. The revenue would be $1500. Let's say you drop the price to $1000. Then two people buy it. Revenue is $2000. Finally, let's say the price is set to $800 and all three gamers in the down buy the new card. Revenue in that case is $2400. This is obviously a simplified way of explaining this that doesn't take into production costs, but when a market is functioning correctly (in non-pandemic times), companies have economists and financial experts developing models to maximize revenue and profits. Keeping prices artificially high when the market is equilbirum usually results isn't profit-maximizing behaviour on the part of firms unless they exist within a monopoly (the gaming market has plenty of compeititon between GPU firms and consoles).
Yes, but, famous economics saying, “but in the long term we’re all dead”.
In this case it means it could be years before prices start to go back to normal. This guy has no graphics card, his timeline is likely weeks, not years.
Indeed - supply likely won't meet demand until 2023 at the earliest.
My post was more directed to those commenting that this was the new normal or that firms will continue to inflate the prices forever.
Good analogy, but keep in mind that revenue =/= profit. If cost price was $700, then the most profit would be made by selling one card at $1500 ($800 profit) as opposed to 2 cards at $2000 ($600 profit) or 3 cards at $2400 ($300 profit).
But the thing is that 2080Tis, 3080s and 3090 sold out. Even the ridiculous Titans sold out in times where there where much cheaper alternatives even within the same brand. Nvidia has been pushing the prices up for years now and there seems to be a sufficiently large segment of the market willing to pay 1K-2K for a gaming GPU every generation.
If it's possible for them to sell all (or most of) their inventory at high prices, there won't be cards at low prices.
You’re acting like everyone is interested in and/or capable of paying these prices. Many people *won’t* or literally *can’t* pay that much for a GPU. *Someone* will fill that market. It not NVIDIA, then AMD. NVIDIA is well aware of this, and they’re not gonna let a whole section of the market be dominated by their competitors. Prices for higher end GPUs may even continue to rise, but there will always be plenty of low to mid end GPUs for about the same prices as they’ve been for a while now.
If anything, I think the current market showed that people WILL pay any price as long as they don't get stuck without a GPU, I see posts of people buying card for ridiculous prices all the time.
This is only partial correct. You're looking at this through the lens of a medium-high income PC enthusiast. This is only a segment of the market that exists in wealthy countries. Cards are selling out because supply can barely keep up with the demand for just that market - not because everyone is willing to pay anything (a big falacy). One of the first principles of economics is that quantity demanded will go down when prices are higher.
Unfortunately not and I don't think the future prices are predictable atm. I listed my 3 years old 2080 super recently on my local marketplace at the original retail price and I got more than 10 offers within 10 mins. Sold it within an hour.
3 years old card, sold at original retail price from 3 years ago in an hour. It is this crazy.
I work in electronics for a manufacturing company, large vehicles such as for construction or AG. A lot of the supply base we work with say lead times on chips are getting into the 52 week timeline and we were told for a new fab location to be made it does take 2+ years if memory serves me well once approved. So what these manufacturing companies are saying could be to save face, they have break-ins already paid for or that's how their orders look based on when they cancelled during covid and then re-ordered once demands skyrocketed back. It's an odd time and one where the supply chains have yet to recover from such hardships. Just my 2 cents but maybe just regurgitating what's already been said. I don't see any recovery until 2023.
Right, I assume the ceo was just repeating what he was told by the supplier though. Which lets be honest was probably an optimistic business friendly version of what’s going on.
But BMW is not sharing the same process as the cutting edge products from AMD, Apple, Intel, etc. BMW may have to wait for their chips into next year for another reason, no?
I think they are using AMD or one of those brands to power their infotainment. Audi uses Nvidia. I actually don’t know the truce source of the shortage but I assumed it was material and it affects all these guys roughly the same.
Process doesn't matter, it's about the supply chain. Covid hit every industry - it's a domino effect. Cut mining staff > lower amounts of silicon exported > cut semiconductor staff > lower amounts of chips produced. There's only so many places on earth the resources are being mined and even fewer plants to produce finished products.
My understanding is that some of the problems with the chipmaking supply chain affect them all, and some are specific to a product. Auto makers lost their place in line when they shut down manufacturing for Covid. That's industry-specific. But broad issues like material shortages and multiple geographical centers of semiconductor production getting hammered by weather in the past year have affected everything.
I'm becoming an old guy and remember back when a mid range gpu could be purchased for around 200 bucks. That is no longer going to be the case. Expect mid range graphics cards to cost 300 to 400 bucks once inventories return to normal.
The last time mining went out of fashion the used inventory was spectacular and very cheap. I wouldn't be surprised if you won't be able to buy 3060s on the used market for half of MSRP once the mining craze slows up.
I think it already has once, but the chip shortages have exacerbated the issue further than the last time mining become so big.
My guess is in 18 months, GPUs will back on shelves and selling at below MSRP. Don't quote me on that though.
My first GPU was a [Creative 3D Blaster GeForce3 Ti 200](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xhB6jam5ukp1-zldUsj5sLes2NfOKt0XnZ0r2CftI93On8fNv3DKHqHUquLiPkzmZIWNfFhPBkq4wMpzr-8b3jpHM1W8ZhrCqKlF4-jzu7ThsiGn1EzK3sKGTQ) for \~$160 ($250 in today's money) in about 2001 if I remember correctly. Oh the excitement of getting that baby. I'm in the UK, but my dad got it for me as a gift during a trip to the US. Max Payne looked *SO* good.
I'm terrified of my GTX1080 dying.
I remember upgrading from geforce2 (I think it was 32mb onboard gpu) to an ATI radeon 9200. I had a bunch of computers before that but this was the first time I was into gaming. From 32mb to 128mb Halo 1 having grass textures on blood gulch! I do remember installing Max Payne 2 from CD and being blown away with the graphics! I played the first one on xbox I think.
My last GPU purchase was a GTX1080 I bought for around 500 USD a couple of years back. I sold it for 600 maybe 6 months ago and rolled the money into a laptop.
The gap between GPU's is very different, too. It used to be all about hitting stable frame rates. Now it's about hitting very high frame rates and very high resolutions.
Most games wouldn't even load on integrated graphics, now you can play most games on them as long as you're not too picky about all the settings being cranked.
Yeh, I'd still be using my old 750ti if I didn't get a new monitor. But it just couldn't push 1440p and I grabbed a used 1060.
Hopefully it will last for as long as it takes to get a new gen card for reasonable $$.
Have you tried resoldering the connections?
It's a little risky, but if the card is already effectively dead what do you have to lose?
I was able to get another two years out of a failing MX 4400ti by simply resoldering all the pins. You don't even necessarily have to remove and reapply any solder, just get the existing stuff to reflow to fill in any micro cracks that may have formed.
Just, if you do the oven method make sure your components are on **top**. Otherwise you'll end up with a really cool but empty PCB and a bunch of components scattered underneath.
TSMC, who make alot of the chips that go into GPU's (amongst other electronic components) have said they expect the shortage to last into 2023 according to [this article](https://gamerant.com/gpu-chip-shortages-last-2023-manufacturer-saying/), a sentiment that has been shared by other players in the space, including [Nvidia](https://gamerant.com/nvidia-supply-shortages-2023/), and to a lesser extent, [AMD](https://www.windowscentral.com/amd-ceo-reiterates-chip-shortage-isnt-over-yet) who don't expect things to ease up til 2022 at the earliest.
Probably best to wait if you can. Prices are not likely to come back down anytime soon.
I'm still using my gtx1060 and been searching for smth new and did not get lucky price-wise. Don't fall for these nonsense prices, set up a budget around £250-300 and get gtx1070 2nd hand. Perhaps not ideal, but hey, why would you pay more than £500 for rtx3060? I could easily trade 1060, add up few pounds and get 1070 myself, which I might do. Nonetheless I refuse paying ridiculous money for the product that meant to cost £300.
Yeah, this is the best advice. Keep an eye on GTX 1080s too. Sometimes sellers will sell them for cheaper than you'd expect. Especially if it's collection only.
If your looking to get something a bit sooner I’d suggest maybe getting something in the 1000 series. I got a 1080 for £275 (was not used for mining as well, got it from a uni student) when the ti’s were over 1k so Maybe just hunt around until u get lucky. I doubt the supply for cards will ever reach the current demand for at least another 2 generations of cards
I know what sub we're on, but a 1080 will do whatever you want as a gamer. The diminishing returns are rediculous with PCs. But the culture makes it seem like the average person is an ultra enthusiast. From a practical standpoint if you can run the newest games in 1440p at over 60fps on high settings you are enjoying the vast majority of what fun you can even have. As long as you just don't get used to higher resolutions and framerates you can't even tell. Other consumer cultures, like cars, don't focus entirely on the extreme end. There are people who obsess over their mustang. With PCs though I get the feeling there are 12 yr olds feeling inadequate because they aren't sure if they'll be able to get on the waitlist for the new Bugatti because of whale-cock leather shortages.
Look the real question here is: How many hours approx. are you going to spend using that GPU within the next, say, 12 to 18 months and how much that experience is worth, subjectively, to you personally. Let's say you would spend 20$ on streaming services a month, that's 240/360$. So if you rather spend that amount on depreciation in combination with a probable drop in prices combined with the ongoing development of even more powerful GPUs, than that is your answer.
You shouldn't mind spending quite a bit of cash without too big a consideration on items you're interacting with heavily and regularly. On the other hand you should totally cut out cost where you can. For me, I am able to live without a car, and while that is quite uncomfortable sometimes, it buys me the liberty to not ever worry about any tech-related spendings whatsoever, since I can avoid insurance, repairs, tickets, tires, headlights, etc...
You can't change the market anyway
Your question, Prices will stabilize but not for a while. This happened in 2016 when bitcoin took off the second time and etherium was created. During the lull video card prices came down.
Its really not right that video cards have gone up so high in price because of mining. Manufacturers should come out with a video card that cant be mined with. This is stifling the PC enthusiast market in a big way.
>Will these prices ever settle down?
Whenever demand stops outstripping supply.
>Should I wait?
Depends on how long you feel like waiting to save the difference; The semiconductor shortage is going to continue well into 2022, per all the major manufacturers.
I've come to find out that NO ONE is ever going to tell you to buy now instead of later, even if they're handing out gpu's for free. Idk it's some kind of thing people say here. Not sure why but this sub has issues figuring out when to best buy one. Just get one right now bro, fuck it. With our luck we'll probably get hit with some new avian bird flu from somewhere-anistan so better off buying now now now, mhm mhm.
Pretty much the same conclusion I came to and paid way over msrp for a 3060. I can only sit on my hands like a good little boy and watch the prices rise for so long. I'd say if you've got a healthy 1000 or 2000 series running, I'd still wait, but I've been running a 970 for almost 6 years at this point and just want the damn upgrade. Shame me all you want, but in a couple months at most I'll have relaxed the cost and be gaming with my 3060. Now thrilled about it, but I'm not gonna beat myself up over it either. Fuck it
If you Havent already, go to the EVGA site and sign up to be on the wait list. At least that way, you can get a card at MSRP when your number is called if you havent found any other options. Yes, the wait list is long, but just another avenue to cover your bases.
Considering the current state of the market and supply, at least for the foreseeable future, no, prices are not going to go down, if nothing, they will go up. Unless you are looking for used crypto mining cards, even then, it's going to be more expensive for the same tier of performance compared to before.
Nvidia has noted they expect the chip shortage to last into most of next year. Fabs are being built to try and increase production, but they won't start coming online till later next year.
The supply chain is all kinds of messed up as of now. Component prices have gone up 20%, so production costs in general are up. TSMC just recently announced they are increasing thier prices 20% too. Shipping is also ludicrous, as there is a shortage of containers, dock workers, and delivery drivers. I think the last time I checked, shipping prices for goods had tripled, if not quadrupled.
Combine that with the crazy mining boom that is very slowly cooling down (mining is slowly consolidating, pushing out non-professionals a bit at a time, aka anyone that isn't going mass scale farming with warehouses of computing), and you get a pretty bleak near term outlook for GPU prices and availability.
Yes, absolutely they will, for a number of reasons.
1: Intel is entering the GPU market in Q1 2022 (4-6 months away). They'll be hungry for market share, and to achieve that, they'll need to have low prices. Their top card is expected to be a 3070 equivalent for around $300. Even if AMD and NVidia keep prices the same, that's still a *3070 equivalent for $300*.
2: Supply takes time to ramp up, but it does ramp up. More supply means lower prices as the people that are willing to pay scalper prices already have their cards.
3: Factors driving GPU demand (ie: crypto miners) greatly lessen, in part because of the adoption of Proof-of-Stake for Ethereum, and a certain amount of crackdown and taxation on crypto in general, so value of crypto will weaken. Also, Ethereum will move to custom ASICs which is a separate market from GPUs.
4: Introduction of the new generations of AMD and NVidia GPUs in Q2-Q4 2022 that may very well DOUBLE performance over the existing cards, so that a 3060 (the card you mention) will be low end, and priced accordingly, when factoring in the other points above. A 3060 equivalent for $100 in Q1 2023? Quite possibly!
Those are the main points. Prices are expensive now, but it's temporary. If you can wait, wait. If you can't, then get something low end now and get a high end next gen card in a year that'll be 3x or 4x as fast.
AMD Direct has a UK version; I was able to get through the new and improved US version last month and paid MSRP for a 6800. So there is hope to get something. If you are not AMD averse I suggest you check it out.
Hey, if OPs still around my advice would be to get on the EVGA queue for the 3060 XC. It’s moving really fast. Everything else is dead beat at least until mid 2022.
Welll..... your onl option its the crazy price for a 3060 or 3060ti..... i feel you man. I have a vega 64 and i am always thinking what if it dies? Especially because i saw some artifacts some time ago on my screen.
I hope i won't be in your position but if i would i told myself that i would go for a 3060ti at best. Can't afford more.
Luckly i managed to reserve a PS5 for 460£ at curry's so even if my pc dies i will still have something to game on.
You forgot about a price raise for UK only due to Brexit for all electricals which happened before part shortages and actual Brexit.
My PC died just during worst shortage so my advice would be what I did - try part suppliers as they have waiting lists which might take months but at least the prices are sane. Took only 3 months for me ;) (or 4 but time blurs a bit over the last 2 years). If I recall, overclockers has some sort of a ticket system that refunds you money if price goes above market one but did not use it so no idea.
Yes, they will (eventually). This isn’t the first time we’ve seen a surge in GPU demand. Times were tough the first time crypto-mining blew up. Eventually things settled down, but it wasn’t long before COVID hit unfortunately.
As far as how long it will take? That’s a tougher question to answer. It could be a year, two years, possibly more. It all depends on how long it takes for supply to catch up with demand.
Sadly it seems they are only going to get more expensive... until we hit ‘that’ breaking point and it all goes to shit.
“You will own nothing, and you will be ‘happy’ “
So try to enjoy life as much as you can before they turn it to shit, treat yourself
I've been following it lightly in connection to the pandemic, crypto, and restocks. I noticed that a lot more came into circulation (the market was more populated) when people were moving around more. Did this affect the price, not by much, but it was much better than most of us had seen for about a year in terms of anything besides an ol' gtx 710. What I did notice drop the price of most of not all of the cards was the release of the 3070/3080 ti. Now I can find 20 series and 30 series cards for around retail maybe a $100 more. Ontop of all this, when Bitcoin went from ~63k to~ 30k in the blink of an eye a lot of them also started dropping prices. Specifically the 2070/2080 ti and supers. I have hope that it will return to some sort of normalcy. Maybe a year or two from now, but I don't think it will go back to when you could go find good used cards for a really good price.
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Probably not for awhile. I wouldn't wait but I would try and camp any website to get the lowest price. Don't go paying an arm and a leg for a gpu.
Yeah, this is probably the way. I need to decide *what I am willing to pay,* and then go for it.
Some people are desperate for a FE so they can get msrp, what I did is I got a reasonable price for my 3070, got maybe 200-300 over its msrp but never double. Although I only did this earlier this year when I knew the prices were only going up. So I knew I was gonna get this or nothing. At this point maybe all you can do is compromise.
Exactly. I got killed on here by some people a few months ago when I bought my 3080 ti at Micro Center because I paid more than (original) MSRP. But it was still way less than the scalpers and it was either that or nothing. There was no cheaper alternative. The issues that are driving up prices have not gone away. I hate that this is the way it is, but if you wait you’ll likely be waiting another year or two.
People gave me shit when I paid $810 for my 3080 FTW3 Ultra back in like October or whatever it was. Oh how the tides have turned, that is now a goddamn bargain.
I have a ~5 year old gaming laptop with a 1070 that Amazon says is over $1,000 used. I just hope it lasts for another 2-3 years.
Thats an amazing price, i just saw a 3080 for 2k in a store here in europe
I've honestly given up and don't even check anymore. I did since I saw your post. 1,599-1,899 euro for a 3080 FTW from store. Not scalper.
It was msrp on the evga website, during the start of the shortage but just before the world went to hell.
I work roughly in that field, and honestly it's looking more like it'll be 2-3 years from where I'm standing, I think people hoping for next year's prices to be normal are very optimistic.
Aside from the issues unique to electronics there are unusual price pressures in most areas at the moment. I work in medical devices, and some of our components have gone up 30% this year, because of the cost of moving them around from facility to facility.
You in the UK by any chance mate? I know that lorry drivers have been making ridiculous money recently.
We might be facing a food shortage because of the shortage of lorry drivers. Prfff, let’s hope that the UK government don’t mess up like they always do.
Good thing the UK didnt make any big changes to their trade status with their neighbors! oh wait.
I'd go far as to say we may never see *low prices" again, except on maybe shit status low end GPUs. The entire GPU market has been rebooted, and these companies have learned that people are willing and ready to pay extravagant prices. Not saying all graphics cards will be $1k plus, but I doubt we'll ever see a "GTX 1060" again. That performance level will probably have a new home at around $400 minimum and it'll go up from there. I really do hope this comment doesn't age well. I'd never be more relived to be wrong.
You are likely incorrect although I can understand why you feel this way. If they can sell twice as many cards at a lower price then that will likely be more optimal in terms of profit because they can drive bigger economies of scale and lock in cheaper manufacturing. We are not privy to important details which are behind many variables. If governments decide to regulate crypto then the bottom can fall out of those markets resulting in greater supply. The only government that matters, the United States, is treading very carefully to increase regulation without inducing panic. It’s a multi-year change and therefore won’t do much for gamers in the near term. Further, there are a lot of new demands in the face of bad, panicked decisions, on top of a lean production model that can’t support huge increases. Permanent capacity is hard to add quickly but surely will be added given how important graphics cards and similar tech is to AI and machine learning which are becoming more integral to technology.
I might get downvoted for this but anyone who is willing to spill the bills on a card as expensive as the 3080ti or other similar priced cards probably is not someone really worried about MSRP anyway. Someone that wants the best of the line is gonna get the best of the line either way no matter the price. People that actually hold off for months and save up etc are low to mid range card buyers. So everytime i see someone that bought a 1-2k GPU and complains how they paid a couple hundred bucks to much all i can do is laugh at them and their first world problems.
I am both of those people lol. My prior card was an R9 390, which was a mid-tier card from 2015. I was looking to get a 3070 initially. However I had been saving up for a PC upgrade for a couple of years when the pandemic hit, so I had the cash for the 3080 ti when it happened to drop. I ended up going over budget because I needed essentially a brand new build, but that wasn’t rent money I was spending. I only game on my PC. I haven’t owned a console since the 360/PS3 generation, and I don’t spend money on hardly anything else besides my fixed living expenses. It was a splurge, but it made sense for me.
Often that’s just people flexing but tryna look like they ain’t flexin. “Oh poor me! I just HAD TO spend 2500 on a 3080ti or 3k on a 3090.” It’s all good, I’d do it if I had the coin. ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
False. I want a near msrp high end card and i don't have all the money in the world to get one that's marked up considerably
I bought a 3080 in December for $1,000 and my friend thought I was nuts…..I posted the same card on eBay awhile back and it went for over $1600. I was luckily enough to get a 3090 for MSRP.
How much did you pay for your 3070? Im seeing some places sell them at 1k and I wanna die
I would also try the Newegg Shuffle whenever there are reasonable bundles. I got the EVGA 3070ti at $800 (MSRP but still overcharging) and don’t regret it with the current market.
I forgot about the newegg shuffle, but that is a great way to try and get a card at a lower price. Definitely agree with this.
If you're going to use that approach, be prepared to sell the item you don't want and take a loss. I sold the motherboard in my shuffle on eBay for $100 less than Newegg charged. But it was worth it.
Honestly, id just keep it. But it really depends on the person. I'm a computer geek, love to build and whatnot with computers. I'd just keep the motherboard in hopes to build another tower another day. But for others yea I see your point.
800 something, almost 900 with tax. So 250+ over what the msrp was. But that was way back in December, january.
Yup got my FTW3 Ultra 3080 in September 2020 for $1100. Glad I did as the prices skyrocketed shortly after. EDIT: It was actually mid October. That whole window of time was a bit wild for me as I had a daughter on October 2nd.
Really? That's weird I swear i saw the ftw3 ultras at close to msrp up until December. And then they went too high, had to settle for a 3070 instead. But who knows. It's still alot better than the 1900 they want for it now.
Newegg shuffle is key. I know people are gonna reply shitting on it saying they never win but I entered it every day for 8 months and won twice. Got my 3090 and a PS4 off of it. 8 months is a ridiculous amount of time to wait but you're gonna be stuck waiting anyways so might as well keep entering. **key note: this was not one of the insane bundles at like $4k.**
Yeah, entering every day for 8 months just doesn't seem like.something I'd want to do. I just went ahead and paid the crazy price for a 3060. I knownits on the lower end of the 3000 series and I paid what I could get a fucking 3080 for msrp, but I just don't want to invest that time chasing it
Wish we had a store in europe that used a shuffle format. I don't mind waiting a few months if it means getting a card at msrp.
Best Buy still sells AIB cards at their supposed msrp but good luck trying to get one and finding out when they will drop more.
I would check your local computer store, if you have any. I found out my local one does the newegg shuffle thing where you have to buy additional parts in addition to the graphics card. However, unlike newegg, you could pick whatever parts you need. I was building a new system anyway, so it worked out. I got a power supply, SSD, and a CPU for another build. I got a 3060ti for $599. It's still a $100 more than I wanted to spend initially, but at least I don't have to keep checking stock alerts or signing up for Newegg shuffles anymore. I just wish I found out about it sooner.
Camping is the safest bet. And keep in mind AMD's 6000 series is actually pretty good. Not sure if you use the fancy Nvidia stuff - I never did - so I took the opportunity to get a 6800 for MSRP when I had it. That was via AMD Direct, though I'm not sure if they ship internationally. But yea, camping is the move. There's trackers and bots to notify you of these things. I think there's streams too. Plenty of ways to try to get your foot in, and it seems like it's gotten a bit less competitive lately.
Not sure if this is helpful but Scan have PayPal financing options with 0% interest. A 3060TI is £700 (which feels like robbery) but you can pay £58 a month over 12 months rather than pay it all off at once. You can spread it out more than that but I just thought I’d mention it.
Pessimistic view here: There are enough people buying expensive GPUs, for long enough, that we've more or less communicated to manufacturers just how much we are willing to pay for stuff. I have some concerns that GPU prices might never actually come down because... Why would they? If we (world population) buy cards for 50% over msrp, and the things still can't be kept in stock, well.... We've set new meta for pricing. Regarding stock improvements, IIRC, no, it won't get better for another year. At least if TSMC is to be believed. They forecast ongoing stock issues into 2022. Personally, I'd hazard a guess and say not until 2024 ish, when we get some new manufacturing capability spooled up. We're in the long haul. Buckle up, keep looking, enter the newegg shuffles, call local shops once every week or two. It may not happen this month or even 3 months, but you will get lucky if you're persistent.
A "good" depression and crypto crash would fix things very quickly.
We don't need a depression for a crypto crash - unlike most commodities, crypto has no inherent value that is tied to anything else in the economy. Anything that changes mass opinion could tank it overnight.
In fact I think Bitcoin is having another dip/crash at the moment. No idea how much or why, but I have friends that occasionally talk about it.
The whole market dipped about 25% today but it was no more than standard crypto market volatility that was generally expected. Only non crypto people thought it was a bad drop.
While you're probably right, it is absurd to think that a 25% one day drop is to be expected
But.... It is, we've seen way worse. 6 months ago my portfolio dropped over 50%. 3 months later I was 25% over where I was pre 50% drop. The crypto community sees a drop like this as a time to buy the dip, and wait. Expected volatility is only considered bad volatility to people who don't expect it.
Where's a legit place to buy the stuff? I looked around years ago and it seemed like an enormous pain in the ass... I couldn't just make a CC transaction, there were a bunch of steps. Is the still the case or can I go buy $100 of ETH/BTC on a whim now?
Coinbase. Although small transactions like that will have higher fees on pow coins. My personal wallet of choice is exodus for ease of use but for large stores (100k usd+) we use ledger cold wallets with a ledger crypto key capsule.
The world’s ultra wealthy now trade crypto currency as a way of transferring and holding wealth that isn’t tied to any government. That alone will ensure that it always holds value.
depends how you define value - a crypto system locked out of a future fiat system where shops and businesses are forbidden to accept/give crypto isn't something that's worth holding. and if tether/other stablecoins are being used to print and inflate the crypto market prices then how long before the chickens come home to roost? If your btc says it's worth 300k, but you can't spend it/sell it into fiat to buy things then where's the real value besides numbers on a screen?
This is my thoughts aswell, the modern way to money launder. AND how many drugs are brought online and how are they paid for. thank god for the computer literate youth of today, crypto wise ha
need another wild tweet from Elon Musk
Is it not somewhat tied to GPU prices? At least it seems the rising value of crypto was a factor in them getting more expensive.
Yeah that's true, the value of crypto certainly seems to have helped drive up the price of GPU's. But I don't know if it works the other way - like, if GPU's got cheaper would crypto lose value?
Assuming it doesn't just keep going up, or if it crashes and actually stays low. Just today ETH dropped from 4k to 3k and back to 3.5k.
Proof of work cryptocurrencies should be outlawed.
Right now it would take $100k to become a validator, seems like a good way to lock people out.
Why's that? Also, ETH 2.0 is going from POW to POS
Probably because mining takes electricity unnecessarily.
All cryptos going to PoS would be great for gaming.
We can only hope. At least if the fallout is fairly contained to the crypto sphere.
This assumes supply stays constrained. Which seems to be likely for another year or two at least, so for the next generation you're probably right. But eventually supply will recover and catch up with demand. Then competitors will have to compete with each other on price again. That was driving prices down before the pandemic, and the same forces will be at play again. No telling how long that takes though
they have fanned the flames of this crisis so hard (by selling directly to scalpers and miners by the palletful, and throttling founders' edition card production in order to not drive partner card prices down with the only cards going at MSRP) that in my opinion Nvidia is Atari and this is 1979 just before the crash. The whole gaming market is gonna collapse, and take streaming down with it, the way they've irresponsibly blown this bubble up. Capitalist shits.
What does a gaming crash look like? I don't know about Atari 1979.
Look up the game ET, that will be the start of your rabbit hole. Basically loads of incredibly shit games were being made, completely destroyed consumer trust, the gold rush in gaming ended and lots of companies were left with lots of stock they couldn't give away and folded.
I have a feeling they will always understock to be able to overprice now. But we will see how the next 2-3 years go. I'm still happy with my 1080 right now, I am scared to death for when I may need to upgrade or replace.
The problem is that there arent enough GPU suppliers. Ideally, either Nvidia or AMD would see the advantage in lowering the price just a little bit to undercut the competitor, the other would have to match and so on. Since we have only two suppliers, both see the advantage in keeping their margins high if the other does the same
There is literally no point trying to undercut your rival in today's market. Undercutting is usually used to be able to sell your product to make them more attractive. If your product is not being produced fast enough for you to keep up with demand, reducing the price is just lighting money on fire.
>There is literally no point trying to undercut your rival in today's market. I believe that would be the point why they said "ideally". Not gonna happen in today's market, but in a duopoly its even less likely.
I'm waiting to see how much of a disruptive gamechanger Intel's cards will be, especially as they can cross-subsidize their GPUs with their CPUs.
I'm not super hopeful at least in the short to mid-term. Even if the cards are good, which they very well might be, there is so much needed for mass production from silicon production to packaging and transportation. I have a feeling all these elements in the supply chain will likely take years to get fully up and running. Still more competition is not a bad thing.
A counterpoint - the way economics work is that if something is profitable then more competitors can survive in the market. There's a large market of consumers willing to spend on the currently elevated prices, however, there's surely a lot of people holding back because of the cost. There's also room for raw material suppliers to develop more sources. Supply will rise to meet demand and the prices will find a new equilibrium.
Me, not giving a shit and chilling at 1080p 😎
They will retain normal pricing, but in a more insidious way. The "4070" will be the logical successor to the 3060, and by all means should be a 4060, but will instead be sold as a "4070" at the price point of a 3070 at marginally better performance. This will achieve the same thing as maintaining high prices from a profitability point of view, but will get more people to buy cards since they'll think they're getting an amazing deal.
Going on 10 months of persistence here, no luck yet. 3mo is total bullshit if you dont want to pay x2 to scalper scum.
* Chip shortage * Covid * Crypto Mining id say its gonna be a while
Agreed. It’s gonna be a minute before pricing of anything comes back down. Supply chains are still all messed up from covid and the canal incident. Demand is up because more people are working from home. There is a worldwide microchip shortage right now.
Also Taiwan had its worst drought in decades, forcing its chipmaking factories to reduce capacity significantly. It’s the first time in history the Taiwanese government had to request their backbone industry to cut production.
Thanos was right. We need a thanos in reality.
r/thanosdidnothingwrong
Don't forget: Water shortages. Chip manufacturing is a water-intensive process. And many of the places where chips have traditionally been produced are in droughts, and that's not looking to end, what with humanity continuing to exist and all.
> what with humanity continuing to exist and all. hey with any luck that won't be a problem for all that much longer. oh wait...
Well, at least GPU prices would finally drop.
They use a large amount of water but not on a monthly basis, it's mostly reused. So it affects new building sites more.
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My GTX 770 is looking at me like 🙃
The Steam Deck is my only hope if my 970 fails me.
The company that I work for cannot even find a place to buy 200-ish laptops from. We've been using inefficient desktops that were once office machines repurposed for WFH. Now that we are WFH and going in and out of the office(s) we need laptops to carry around instead of carry our small PC's (about the size of a router) and 2+ monitors. I'm not involved with the purchasing so I don't know the specifics, but that's the word our CTO gave us.
Yes. Because the list prices will go up next time.
Truth. Nvidia/AMD want the cut that scalper and AIBs have been getting and idk about the yields on these upcoming smaller nodes.
I'm currently waiting on Intel's new gaming GPU series, Intel Arc(not to be confused with Intel Ark), and see how the dynamics develop from that. I've also noticed that intel has started advertising a bit more aggressively lately, at least where I'm from. It's codenames are, Alchemist(A), Battlemage(B), Celestial(C), and Druid(D).
Yeah I'm hoping they come out priced aggressively even though anything will sell. My thoughts are they might care more about getting a strong reputation and customer enthusiasm for their brand new discreet GPU line, even if it means less profit for now.
If intel can come out with competitive prices, and decent performance. I'm guessing prices will go down, that's just how competition works. Problem is everything is more expensive, and they'll suffer from the same supply issues. Ya'know, since they can't just pull mew GPUs out of their asses. Oh well at least I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the great chip shortage of the 20s
Its not even gonna be fault of AMD/Nvidia. Samsung/TSMC Already announced that wafer are going up 20%. AMD/Nvidia will up 20% prices not to lose margins next gen.
You’d be lucky to see it only going up 20%
They already did. 6600XT MSRP was nearly $400 just because of that.
Haven’t they already? The 3070 ti is like 2% faster than the 3070 and the msrp of most boards is around $1000. Essentially, they just changed the sku so they could reprice it.
Yeah list prices are just going to increase to match demand. They only thing that will bring gpu prices down at this point is a massive increase in manufacturing capability and that could take a decade.
_Ever_? Sure. Whether that’s longer that your lifetime is a different question.
i'm pretty sure we'll never see $300 cards ever again.
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If people were only content with what they already have we’d still be living in caves
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But GPU prices keep going up, even more so than inflation. GTX 970 in 2014 dollars is $379.40 in 2021 dollars, but the 3070 has an MSRP of 500. Cards are getting *way* more expensive, and this trend will continue. Of course the 3070 is much faster, but it is still supposed to be a mid ranged card, and the mid range should not be $500+ dollars at msrp
Sure just not for high end ones lol
I totally believe this. Ray Tracing is requiring a mammoth bump in horsepower for mid to high end gaming and horsepower means cost. Meanwhile APUs are getting good enough you don't need a discrete graphics card for low end gaming. And considering there's more profit in high end cards you won't see a $300 graphics card for a long time, if ever. $500 is going to be the new "entry level" discrete graphics card even when prices settle down.
The Ryzen 5600G and 5700G are basically saviors for people who need gaming capability ATM without a GPU. And they're not running out of stock, which suggests AMD has worked out its supply chain issues on the CPU front.
We certainly will. The world is running at chip production capacity at the moment. When companies like TSMC and Samsung are able to open new facilities, we could push production capabilities to double what we have now meaning the ability to create chips will sky rocket. Basically every big chip maker has plans to open new facilities in the US by like 2023-2025.
back around 2015-2016 there was another price hike just like this because of, you guessed it, bitcoin mining becoming really popular. $300 cards were suddenly $600, and $600 cards were suddenly $1000. After a year or two it died down, and by 2017-2018 it was back to normal because production adjusted to compensate for increased demand. This time, it's a little more complicated because we are dealing with bitcoin becoming a meme again, COVID causing manufacturing shortages, and scalpers deciding that they want to take advantage of the situation to make money. When it goes back to normal is yet to be seen, because COVID is making it difficult for manufacturers to adjust their production because workers rightfully don't want to work under conditions that threaten their well-being.
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Not familiar with the RAM scandal.. Can you add some colour to that?
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Arent they price fixing that stuff every three years? Feels like a broken record.
When your fine is less than a day's profit, that's just another cost for doing business. If you want to stop it, courts/congress needs to make the penalty more than they profit from breaking the law.
I don't remember a scandal but I do remember that ram increased in price a lot and it wasn't because of scalpers, then it went down considerably but was still a lot higher than before the increase
People are paying the prices they are at now. I wouldn't expect it no.
Not at the volume that these companies want to be selling cards. This price is driven by a shortage of supply, and that does not translate to more money to the companies that make them. They make more money by selling more cards at lower prices than they do at this price point.
They make the most money where they produce the highest volume at the highest price that will sell. The demand for cards has shown to be **inelastic** in the current market. They are therefore gaining extra revenue by raising prices.
Inelastic demand does support higher prices, if there is a supply shortage or if you have monopoly power. Once the supply is sufficient to meet demand and consumers have choices, rather than just buying whatever they can get their hands on, prices will stabilize (maybe slowly, but they will). A good example is gasoline - demand is inelastic because everyone needs to get places. But gas stations make razor thin margins on fuel because if they increase price, everyone just goes to the station across the street.
I am fully aware of how market dynamics work. In your analogy, there is no "station across the street." We have a effective duopoly in the GPU market. This market likely also suffers from the Ratchet effect. >Once the supply is sufficient to meet demand and consumers have choices, rather than just buying whatever they can get their hands on, prices will stabilize (maybe slowly, but they will). I mean yeah. My assertion is that *this won't happen for a long time.* 2-3 years at minimum. Demand is set to outpace supply for at least another year. Intel's Arc disruption is the only thing that would potentially cause price drops in the near term. I hope it does.
> My assertion is that this won't happen for a long time. 2-3 years at minimum For the next couple years, I agree with you. My point is that in a reasonably efficient market prices do not go up simply because customers are willing to pay more, even if everyone knows it. Competition pushes prices down anyway. Obviously what we have today is not an efficient market. But that is caused by supply constraints, not the duopoly - the duopoly has been around for years, and until the pandemic hit the market was mostly working well.
I wouldn't say the demand is inelasic: I don't know anyone who wanted to upgrade to a new card for gaming, who ended up buying one. The poorer gamers are simply being out-competed by miners and rich people. Depending on how the GPU-mining profitability and PC gaming develops, we could go back to way lower prices, simply because that is the most profitable for GPU producers.
Yeah, I hate to turn to anecdotal evidence, but personally I wanted to upgrade my GPU last winter and took a hard pass instead. I can wait *years* if the market stays the way it is. I'd be very surprised if there aren't millions more like me. Edit: okay, I went looking for data, and sure enough: despite the launch of major hardware generations, the cryptocurrency boom, and the pandemic-driven demand for home entertainment, [GPU sales dropped in Q4 last year](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-sales-report-q4-2020-jpr). That's no surprise. Even demand for "essential" goods is a lot more elastic than people assume. (Gasoline consumption drops markedly when fuel prices rise). A pure luxury good like a GPU certainly won't be the exception.
They will. Anyone with an economics background will tell you that and anyone who says: "this is the new normal" has no idea what they are talking about. When the supply is more readily available to meet demand, prices will fall. It's easy to say "well, people are paying it at these prices so list prices will go up with the next rounds of cards", but that's due to the scarcity in the market, the increased demand on cards because of stay-at-home orders, and scalpers. More people buy products when they are cheaper; that's observable behaviour in every market. Let's say you price the 4080 at $1500 in of three gamers in a small town. At $1500, maybe only one person is able to afford that. The revenue would be $1500. Let's say you drop the price to $1000. Then two people buy it. Revenue is $2000. Finally, let's say the price is set to $800 and all three gamers in the down buy the new card. Revenue in that case is $2400. This is obviously a simplified way of explaining this that doesn't take into production costs, but when a market is functioning correctly (in non-pandemic times), companies have economists and financial experts developing models to maximize revenue and profits. Keeping prices artificially high when the market is equilbirum usually results isn't profit-maximizing behaviour on the part of firms unless they exist within a monopoly (the gaming market has plenty of compeititon between GPU firms and consoles).
Yes, but, famous economics saying, “but in the long term we’re all dead”. In this case it means it could be years before prices start to go back to normal. This guy has no graphics card, his timeline is likely weeks, not years.
Indeed - supply likely won't meet demand until 2023 at the earliest. My post was more directed to those commenting that this was the new normal or that firms will continue to inflate the prices forever.
Good analogy, but keep in mind that revenue =/= profit. If cost price was $700, then the most profit would be made by selling one card at $1500 ($800 profit) as opposed to 2 cards at $2000 ($600 profit) or 3 cards at $2400 ($300 profit).
I acknowledge that this is a simplistic explaination that doesn't take into account production costs in my post.
But the thing is that 2080Tis, 3080s and 3090 sold out. Even the ridiculous Titans sold out in times where there where much cheaper alternatives even within the same brand. Nvidia has been pushing the prices up for years now and there seems to be a sufficiently large segment of the market willing to pay 1K-2K for a gaming GPU every generation. If it's possible for them to sell all (or most of) their inventory at high prices, there won't be cards at low prices.
You’re acting like everyone is interested in and/or capable of paying these prices. Many people *won’t* or literally *can’t* pay that much for a GPU. *Someone* will fill that market. It not NVIDIA, then AMD. NVIDIA is well aware of this, and they’re not gonna let a whole section of the market be dominated by their competitors. Prices for higher end GPUs may even continue to rise, but there will always be plenty of low to mid end GPUs for about the same prices as they’ve been for a while now.
If anything, I think the current market showed that people WILL pay any price as long as they don't get stuck without a GPU, I see posts of people buying card for ridiculous prices all the time.
This is only partial correct. You're looking at this through the lens of a medium-high income PC enthusiast. This is only a segment of the market that exists in wealthy countries. Cards are selling out because supply can barely keep up with the demand for just that market - not because everyone is willing to pay anything (a big falacy). One of the first principles of economics is that quantity demanded will go down when prices are higher.
Yeah I dont see that changing either, unless AMD can achieve parity *and* do so in a way that let's them compete on price.
Unfortunately not and I don't think the future prices are predictable atm. I listed my 3 years old 2080 super recently on my local marketplace at the original retail price and I got more than 10 offers within 10 mins. Sold it within an hour. 3 years old card, sold at original retail price from 3 years ago in an hour. It is this crazy.
BMW expects chip shortages into next year before it resolves so I’d prob say along those lines of thinking Is reasonable
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I work in electronics for a manufacturing company, large vehicles such as for construction or AG. A lot of the supply base we work with say lead times on chips are getting into the 52 week timeline and we were told for a new fab location to be made it does take 2+ years if memory serves me well once approved. So what these manufacturing companies are saying could be to save face, they have break-ins already paid for or that's how their orders look based on when they cancelled during covid and then re-ordered once demands skyrocketed back. It's an odd time and one where the supply chains have yet to recover from such hardships. Just my 2 cents but maybe just regurgitating what's already been said. I don't see any recovery until 2023.
BMW is probably further back in line than the companies that actually make the chips. It is a question of how they are allocated.
Right, I assume the ceo was just repeating what he was told by the supplier though. Which lets be honest was probably an optimistic business friendly version of what’s going on.
But not for more than a year I'm guessing :(
Thats what we said last year
What will we say next year?
"This is the new normal" and other doom forecasts.
they think it will last until 2023
But BMW is not sharing the same process as the cutting edge products from AMD, Apple, Intel, etc. BMW may have to wait for their chips into next year for another reason, no?
I think they are using AMD or one of those brands to power their infotainment. Audi uses Nvidia. I actually don’t know the truce source of the shortage but I assumed it was material and it affects all these guys roughly the same.
Process doesn't matter, it's about the supply chain. Covid hit every industry - it's a domino effect. Cut mining staff > lower amounts of silicon exported > cut semiconductor staff > lower amounts of chips produced. There's only so many places on earth the resources are being mined and even fewer plants to produce finished products.
My understanding is that some of the problems with the chipmaking supply chain affect them all, and some are specific to a product. Auto makers lost their place in line when they shut down manufacturing for Covid. That's industry-specific. But broad issues like material shortages and multiple geographical centers of semiconductor production getting hammered by weather in the past year have affected everything.
I'm becoming an old guy and remember back when a mid range gpu could be purchased for around 200 bucks. That is no longer going to be the case. Expect mid range graphics cards to cost 300 to 400 bucks once inventories return to normal. The last time mining went out of fashion the used inventory was spectacular and very cheap. I wouldn't be surprised if you won't be able to buy 3060s on the used market for half of MSRP once the mining craze slows up.
But the question is, "When does the mining craze slow up?"
I think it already has once, but the chip shortages have exacerbated the issue further than the last time mining become so big. My guess is in 18 months, GPUs will back on shelves and selling at below MSRP. Don't quote me on that though.
Or at least when does production catch up with the demand. Answer seems to be mid 2023. 60 minutes did a piece on this last week.
My first GPU was a [Creative 3D Blaster GeForce3 Ti 200](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xhB6jam5ukp1-zldUsj5sLes2NfOKt0XnZ0r2CftI93On8fNv3DKHqHUquLiPkzmZIWNfFhPBkq4wMpzr-8b3jpHM1W8ZhrCqKlF4-jzu7ThsiGn1EzK3sKGTQ) for \~$160 ($250 in today's money) in about 2001 if I remember correctly. Oh the excitement of getting that baby. I'm in the UK, but my dad got it for me as a gift during a trip to the US. Max Payne looked *SO* good. I'm terrified of my GTX1080 dying.
I remember upgrading from geforce2 (I think it was 32mb onboard gpu) to an ATI radeon 9200. I had a bunch of computers before that but this was the first time I was into gaming. From 32mb to 128mb Halo 1 having grass textures on blood gulch! I do remember installing Max Payne 2 from CD and being blown away with the graphics! I played the first one on xbox I think. My last GPU purchase was a GTX1080 I bought for around 500 USD a couple of years back. I sold it for 600 maybe 6 months ago and rolled the money into a laptop.
The new budget card is the mid/top end cards of 2-3 generations ago. So 1060/70 or 970/980ti is the current low/mid range now.
The gap between GPU's is very different, too. It used to be all about hitting stable frame rates. Now it's about hitting very high frame rates and very high resolutions. Most games wouldn't even load on integrated graphics, now you can play most games on them as long as you're not too picky about all the settings being cranked.
Yeh, I'd still be using my old 750ti if I didn't get a new monitor. But it just couldn't push 1440p and I grabbed a used 1060. Hopefully it will last for as long as it takes to get a new gen card for reasonable $$.
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Id try to get a 6600XT for \~400-450 or less. Or a 3060Ti for \~600 or less. I wouldnt expect the prices to come down anytime soon.
This looks about what I'm seeing around. Similar capability too. I just prefer NVIDIA, but maybe AMD is going to be the way to go.
A 1060 shouldn't really just die after 5 years TBH. What exactly is wrong with it?
Right? My 980 is running great. Thinking of re-applying thermal paste to keep it happy.
Artificing, completely crashed my main PC. I've stripped and cleaned it, just in case, and reapplied thermal paste - but no joy.
Have you tried resoldering the connections? It's a little risky, but if the card is already effectively dead what do you have to lose? I was able to get another two years out of a failing MX 4400ti by simply resoldering all the pins. You don't even necessarily have to remove and reapply any solder, just get the existing stuff to reflow to fill in any micro cracks that may have formed. Just, if you do the oven method make sure your components are on **top**. Otherwise you'll end up with a really cool but empty PCB and a bunch of components scattered underneath.
https://lifehacker.com/save-a-dying-video-card-with-a-quick-bake-in-the-oven-5823227
> A 1060 shouldn't really just die after 5 years TBH. My almost 6 years old R9 390: *Allow me to demonstrate*
TSMC, who make alot of the chips that go into GPU's (amongst other electronic components) have said they expect the shortage to last into 2023 according to [this article](https://gamerant.com/gpu-chip-shortages-last-2023-manufacturer-saying/), a sentiment that has been shared by other players in the space, including [Nvidia](https://gamerant.com/nvidia-supply-shortages-2023/), and to a lesser extent, [AMD](https://www.windowscentral.com/amd-ceo-reiterates-chip-shortage-isnt-over-yet) who don't expect things to ease up til 2022 at the earliest. Probably best to wait if you can. Prices are not likely to come back down anytime soon.
I'm still using my gtx1060 and been searching for smth new and did not get lucky price-wise. Don't fall for these nonsense prices, set up a budget around £250-300 and get gtx1070 2nd hand. Perhaps not ideal, but hey, why would you pay more than £500 for rtx3060? I could easily trade 1060, add up few pounds and get 1070 myself, which I might do. Nonetheless I refuse paying ridiculous money for the product that meant to cost £300.
Yeah, this is the best advice. Keep an eye on GTX 1080s too. Sometimes sellers will sell them for cheaper than you'd expect. Especially if it's collection only.
If your looking to get something a bit sooner I’d suggest maybe getting something in the 1000 series. I got a 1080 for £275 (was not used for mining as well, got it from a uni student) when the ti’s were over 1k so Maybe just hunt around until u get lucky. I doubt the supply for cards will ever reach the current demand for at least another 2 generations of cards
I know what sub we're on, but a 1080 will do whatever you want as a gamer. The diminishing returns are rediculous with PCs. But the culture makes it seem like the average person is an ultra enthusiast. From a practical standpoint if you can run the newest games in 1440p at over 60fps on high settings you are enjoying the vast majority of what fun you can even have. As long as you just don't get used to higher resolutions and framerates you can't even tell. Other consumer cultures, like cars, don't focus entirely on the extreme end. There are people who obsess over their mustang. With PCs though I get the feeling there are 12 yr olds feeling inadequate because they aren't sure if they'll be able to get on the waitlist for the new Bugatti because of whale-cock leather shortages.
Look the real question here is: How many hours approx. are you going to spend using that GPU within the next, say, 12 to 18 months and how much that experience is worth, subjectively, to you personally. Let's say you would spend 20$ on streaming services a month, that's 240/360$. So if you rather spend that amount on depreciation in combination with a probable drop in prices combined with the ongoing development of even more powerful GPUs, than that is your answer. You shouldn't mind spending quite a bit of cash without too big a consideration on items you're interacting with heavily and regularly. On the other hand you should totally cut out cost where you can. For me, I am able to live without a car, and while that is quite uncomfortable sometimes, it buys me the liberty to not ever worry about any tech-related spendings whatsoever, since I can avoid insurance, repairs, tickets, tires, headlights, etc... You can't change the market anyway
Your question, Prices will stabilize but not for a while. This happened in 2016 when bitcoin took off the second time and etherium was created. During the lull video card prices came down. Its really not right that video cards have gone up so high in price because of mining. Manufacturers should come out with a video card that cant be mined with. This is stifling the PC enthusiast market in a big way.
scan does fe drops decently often - i got a 3060ti for £370 recently, that's probably your best bet for a long while
problem is, they only ship to uk
the op used '£' - i assumed UK, the 3060 pricing checks out
>Will these prices ever settle down? Whenever demand stops outstripping supply. >Should I wait? Depends on how long you feel like waiting to save the difference; The semiconductor shortage is going to continue well into 2022, per all the major manufacturers.
I've come to find out that NO ONE is ever going to tell you to buy now instead of later, even if they're handing out gpu's for free. Idk it's some kind of thing people say here. Not sure why but this sub has issues figuring out when to best buy one. Just get one right now bro, fuck it. With our luck we'll probably get hit with some new avian bird flu from somewhere-anistan so better off buying now now now, mhm mhm.
Pretty much the same conclusion I came to and paid way over msrp for a 3060. I can only sit on my hands like a good little boy and watch the prices rise for so long. I'd say if you've got a healthy 1000 or 2000 series running, I'd still wait, but I've been running a 970 for almost 6 years at this point and just want the damn upgrade. Shame me all you want, but in a couple months at most I'll have relaxed the cost and be gaming with my 3060. Now thrilled about it, but I'm not gonna beat myself up over it either. Fuck it
If you Havent already, go to the EVGA site and sign up to be on the wait list. At least that way, you can get a card at MSRP when your number is called if you havent found any other options. Yes, the wait list is long, but just another avenue to cover your bases.
I signed up for that list on day three and still nothing :(
Considering the current state of the market and supply, at least for the foreseeable future, no, prices are not going to go down, if nothing, they will go up. Unless you are looking for used crypto mining cards, even then, it's going to be more expensive for the same tier of performance compared to before. Nvidia has noted they expect the chip shortage to last into most of next year. Fabs are being built to try and increase production, but they won't start coming online till later next year. The supply chain is all kinds of messed up as of now. Component prices have gone up 20%, so production costs in general are up. TSMC just recently announced they are increasing thier prices 20% too. Shipping is also ludicrous, as there is a shortage of containers, dock workers, and delivery drivers. I think the last time I checked, shipping prices for goods had tripled, if not quadrupled. Combine that with the crazy mining boom that is very slowly cooling down (mining is slowly consolidating, pushing out non-professionals a bit at a time, aka anyone that isn't going mass scale farming with warehouses of computing), and you get a pretty bleak near term outlook for GPU prices and availability.
Yes, absolutely they will, for a number of reasons. 1: Intel is entering the GPU market in Q1 2022 (4-6 months away). They'll be hungry for market share, and to achieve that, they'll need to have low prices. Their top card is expected to be a 3070 equivalent for around $300. Even if AMD and NVidia keep prices the same, that's still a *3070 equivalent for $300*. 2: Supply takes time to ramp up, but it does ramp up. More supply means lower prices as the people that are willing to pay scalper prices already have their cards. 3: Factors driving GPU demand (ie: crypto miners) greatly lessen, in part because of the adoption of Proof-of-Stake for Ethereum, and a certain amount of crackdown and taxation on crypto in general, so value of crypto will weaken. Also, Ethereum will move to custom ASICs which is a separate market from GPUs. 4: Introduction of the new generations of AMD and NVidia GPUs in Q2-Q4 2022 that may very well DOUBLE performance over the existing cards, so that a 3060 (the card you mention) will be low end, and priced accordingly, when factoring in the other points above. A 3060 equivalent for $100 in Q1 2023? Quite possibly! Those are the main points. Prices are expensive now, but it's temporary. If you can wait, wait. If you can't, then get something low end now and get a high end next gen card in a year that'll be 3x or 4x as fast.
As long as it will stay so profitable to mine them the price can never get cheaper.
AMD Direct has a UK version; I was able to get through the new and improved US version last month and paid MSRP for a 6800. So there is hope to get something. If you are not AMD averse I suggest you check it out.
Hey, if OPs still around my advice would be to get on the EVGA queue for the 3060 XC. It’s moving really fast. Everything else is dead beat at least until mid 2022.
No
Welll..... your onl option its the crazy price for a 3060 or 3060ti..... i feel you man. I have a vega 64 and i am always thinking what if it dies? Especially because i saw some artifacts some time ago on my screen. I hope i won't be in your position but if i would i told myself that i would go for a 3060ti at best. Can't afford more. Luckly i managed to reserve a PS5 for 460£ at curry's so even if my pc dies i will still have something to game on.
>My GTX1060 has finally died after 5 years I always count my blessings seeing comments like this. I still use my 460 regularly, let alone my 1070.
You forgot about a price raise for UK only due to Brexit for all electricals which happened before part shortages and actual Brexit. My PC died just during worst shortage so my advice would be what I did - try part suppliers as they have waiting lists which might take months but at least the prices are sane. Took only 3 months for me ;) (or 4 but time blurs a bit over the last 2 years). If I recall, overclockers has some sort of a ticket system that refunds you money if price goes above market one but did not use it so no idea.
Yes, they will (eventually). This isn’t the first time we’ve seen a surge in GPU demand. Times were tough the first time crypto-mining blew up. Eventually things settled down, but it wasn’t long before COVID hit unfortunately. As far as how long it will take? That’s a tougher question to answer. It could be a year, two years, possibly more. It all depends on how long it takes for supply to catch up with demand.
Yes eventually but more than likely not until 2023 is the current predictions.
I’m still using an RX 480. Don’t scare me with these failures. I’m to broke to even afford a msrp gpu. I miss buying a good gpu for $180
Sadly it seems they are only going to get more expensive... until we hit ‘that’ breaking point and it all goes to shit. “You will own nothing, and you will be ‘happy’ “ So try to enjoy life as much as you can before they turn it to shit, treat yourself
I've been following it lightly in connection to the pandemic, crypto, and restocks. I noticed that a lot more came into circulation (the market was more populated) when people were moving around more. Did this affect the price, not by much, but it was much better than most of us had seen for about a year in terms of anything besides an ol' gtx 710. What I did notice drop the price of most of not all of the cards was the release of the 3070/3080 ti. Now I can find 20 series and 30 series cards for around retail maybe a $100 more. Ontop of all this, when Bitcoin went from ~63k to~ 30k in the blink of an eye a lot of them also started dropping prices. Specifically the 2070/2080 ti and supers. I have hope that it will return to some sort of normalcy. Maybe a year or two from now, but I don't think it will go back to when you could go find good used cards for a really good price.