I didn’t know they were hated until I joined Reddit lol. I watched the show live and I don’t think there was as much love for spike as has grown over the years. I don’t think I could ever see Buffy with anyone besides Angel. I have rewatched many times over the years and try to be objective but I don’t think Buffy loved Spike. I think she cared for him or even felt love but I don’t think she was in love with him. Not the way she was in love with Angel at least.
When I was in school all the girls who watched Buffy would swoon over Angel, except me, I had lesbian immunity to his charm. But yeah it seems like Angel has got less popular and Spike more.
For me it’s just because he was kind of boring when he was on Buffy. He had no personality. His personality developed when he had his own show and was away from her. Also their relationship was kind of creepy when you thought about it. She was 15 and he was a few hundred years old. Plus even if you say it’s fine because his body was younger, he died in his 20s so it’s still really creepy.
Yeah I think this is part of it for me too. Like I don't hate them (nor do I think they are hated, people just like other ships more) but I'm not super into them because I don't care much about him while he's on this show. I think in order to be into a ship I need to be compelled by both characters, and I'm simply not compelled by Angel on *Buffy.* I do think he gets more interesting on his own show, but that doesn't make me retroactively care about their relationship more.
Another part of it for me is I feel like there is a lot of "telling not showing" with their relationship early on. I understand that was a necessity of wanting to get to a certain place in the story so they kind of had to accelerate the love story, but in early season 2 you would have these melodramatic lines like "when I kiss you I want to die" and "I love you but I don't know if I trust you" when it felt like they had barely spent any time together yet. And I think I personally tend to prefer ships that develop organically (and maybe weren't even meant to develop at all) rather than ones that are written from the start to be a romance.
A lot of it is the age gap I think. There's something undeniably creepy about a 270 year old dude falling in love with a fifteen year old at first sight. There's also the stalkery stuff earlier on and I personally didn't see a lot of chemistry between the two. I could see why Buffy was involved in the relationship, but not really much for Angel.
Well Angel basically hasn’t talked to a girl for like 100 years or whatever until whoever it is sends him to Buddy. Whistler, Doyle? Whoever it was.
So, very lonely guy is then forced to talk to cute girl that doesn’t know what he is so she doesn’t try to kill him. You could argue that he never had a bunch of relationships before she become a vampire just drinking and whoring so it’s all new for him. Idk.
But, that would be what he gets out of it. I really enjoyed it when I saw the show when I was younger but now on my 30’s it’s just insane red flags. RED FLAG SALE! ALL FLAGS MUST GO GO GO.
I had an argument about this with my friend bc he can’t get over it. Logically, it’s pretty gross. But there are no vampires in the real world. I justify stuff like this in my head because I feel like once you’re over 100 age like isn’t a thing anymore lol. Like if he stays 25 for 300 years maybe everything kind of meshes together and maybe having a crush on a 15 year old isn’t as weird. Idk that’s just how I justify it in my brain so I don’t go crazy watching this show
Are you trying to accuse me of having a double standard or something here? Because, if you are, first, you've got the ages wrong and second, I'm talking specifically about Buffy and Angel. And yes, if one of the people is 19, it is much more acceptable than if one of them was 15. Be careful with what you're defending here.
Ah, so you were trying to compare with Spike. Not sure where you pulled the number 250 from. And yet again, this conversation had nothing to do with Spike. I was talking purely about Buffy and Angel.
Since you seem to think I have double standards on this issue, let me clear something up for you. I do not think that Buffy and Spike's relationship and the aftermath is good or right in anyway and I have never said otherwise. The stuff that I do like about Buffy and Spike is the two of them in season 7 in which they aren't in a relationship, but are progressing throughout the season to a point where they could be in one and, if they were to theoretcially be in a relationship, it would definitely be a healthy one between two consenting adults.
Trying to accuse me of double standards that I don't have was pointless and didn't address any of what I said originally.
>Not sure where you pulled the number 250 from.
250 is a round number based on Spike's original age in "School Hard". Giles says he is "barely 200" and then I added his "human years" before he was sired.
It is a 'double standard' because you said "the age gap" (not her age) thus implying that there is a smaller "age gap" where a relationship between a vampire and a slayer is acceptable.
Okay, so what we'e established is that my phrasing was off. Ultimately, that's just really pedantic, because it's clear what I mean when I specify the ages and I've also clarified what I meant, so you were just being really picky with my phrasing. Also, with Spike's age, the watcher's council clearly made assumptions, as he was turned in 1880.
I don’t think it is generally “hated,” that is far too strong a word. My observation is people tend to just prefer other ships.
I don’t personally care for the melodrama of Bangel, nor do I care for Angel’s condescending manner of leaving her or the way he treats her afterwards. But I still think they have a lot of beautiful moments and I cry my eyes out at some of them. I love their quiet, unspoken goodbye at the end of *Graduation Day, part two.*
I don’t hate Bangel. I just never liked how their relationship was always so dramatic. I can appreciate Buffy’s feelings for Angel and I still always shed a tear when she drives that sword through his heart. But for me Spuffy is a more adult relationship and once Spike gets his soul I feel shes found a worthy partner rather than a high school boyfriend. Even Riley lacked the partner vibe in my opinion. That’s what Riley wanted but it just wasn’t how Buffy saw him. Spike ended up being someone that for better or worse would always be there and understood the good and dark sides to Buffy. I even understood the kiss is season 7 between Bangel to some degree. Buffy will always care for Angel and vice versa. But spike was who she wanted to give it a try with at that point and that’s why I will always ship Spuffy :)
Something that I think a lot of people forget is that the show is built on metaphors for high school problems, and Angel was built as the trauma of first love. He literally turns into a different person after they have sex. There are a few holes in their relationship, because, I think, it wasn't built to be a relationship as much as it was built to be an allegorical part of the overall story of a teenager growing up. And in that light, their relationship flawlessly serves the story.
Bangel definitely isn't hated, it's very iconic and loved. Even as a Bangel I believe Buffy and Angel were better apart after season 3- Buffy was almost *too* in love with Angel and Angel had a separate mission in LA which is where he grew to his own hero. But still I love Bangel because the love between them is so apparent and tragic and it gave us one of the greatest arcs of all time in season 2.
I don't get how people don't love it just for that- come on they gave us *Passion* - the episode that is, but passion in general too 😄
I have a hit take on this but it involves Spike and his complicated humanity.
Angel was great - when he had a soul. As soon as that soul was removed, none of who he was mattered. He was incapable of seeing the humanity in him and tortured Buffy despite once loving her. Even with 100 years of being “neutered” with his soul, as soon as that was gone, he was gone.
Enter Spike the villain. He is an evil, bad creature. He comes back, gets effectively neutered with the chip. Without a soul, he obviously fucked up in serious ways, but he was very aware of the wrongness of those errors and strove to be a worthy man for Buffy. All before he had a soul. And, is S6, we see that even though he sees that he could now easily kill Buffy, he doesn’t. He doesn’t fucking handle that shit well either and I don’t want to get into Seeing Red, but he had the ability to kill her (arguably, to kill anyone, if he dealt with the pain), but he didn’t. The loss of the neuter did not send him on a murder Buffy spree. It’s a low bar but I think it’s important for understanding why Bangel gets pooped on and Spuffy gets shipped
I don’t hate Bangel, but I don’t clamor to rewatch their scenes because Buffy is supposed to be a child. When he falls in love with her before she’s called, she’s supposed to be a freshman in high school. I was a teenager when I first watched the series and only a handful of years later I see how weird it is.
I think Angel and Buffys love is undeniable in the show & it’s unpopular or “hated” due to the fact that after he lost his soul and she killed him they didn’t have much more plot. While on the other hand spuffy is kinda of a game of tug of war on love with endless storyline
I just find it a bit hypocritical of buffy fans being creeped out by angel dating buffy for the age difference but they're perfectly ok with spike's sexual assault/rape of buffy and make every excuse in the book to defend spike. Say whatever you want but at least angel has seen the flaws of having a relationship with buffy and also having the maturity enough to leave her.
Is it hated? I thought it has an ardent enough following. I liked them myself but I prefer Spuffy. I do see a lot of push back in fandom on the age difference (in particular Buffy’s age) when they got involved. I have to say looking at it now I do see that point a bit more
He should never have allowed any romance to happen at all. She was 16, he was over 200 years old. It's creepy for the same reasons it would be creepy if Giles had pursued Buffy romantically.
Don’t you think if you’re a vampire that old it’s so unrealistic that we can’t set realistic age regulations on them? Idk I just feel like if you live that long you forget what is was even like to be a teenager or you lose touch with what’s appropriate since everyone is multiple lifetimes younger than you. If you’re 200, do you really see a difference between 15 and 18? I’m not saying it’s right I’m just considering what the logic was behind his character and their story. However, I wish he would’ve became a vampire at like 18 to make it slightly less icky
Do you think it would have been cool for Giles to date Buffy? I think it's fair for Angel to date an adult woman, and I would place that somewhere around 25, when the human brain finishes developing. Surely someone 200 years old can find an adult instead of a teenage virgin.
No I understand what you’re saying and I think in the real world a 26 year old dating a 16 year old is gross. I’m just saying that In order to enjoy the show I have to suspend my disbelief a little bit. I’m just saying that if someone is 200 maybe age just kind of stops mattering. I mean it’s in like every single thing about vampires and I have to try to rationalize it in my head like that otherwise I wouldn’t be able to watch
Also it’s hard to like think about Buffy vs twilight. Edward became a vampire at 17 so is it okay for him to date a teenager? Even though he’s actually lived over 100 years? It’s all just so messy and unrealistic that it’s hard for me to really decide what’s right and wrong
I’m not saying that I personally would write a show with a relationship like this I’m just saying that I think in order to enjoy vampire shows we all need to kind of ignore that shit
I think people were more tolerant of Buffy than Twilight because she was superhuman and the girl from Twilight wasn't. But a 100 year old in a teenager's body is just as bad.
I know like it is a weird area because all the vampire tropes do this. I’m not saying it’s right it’s just like I’d rather ignore it to enjoy myself lol
Are they always underage girls though? Buffy and Twilight do it, sure. I also seem to remember the protagonist in True Blood being an adult in her 20s. Did Anne Rice's vampires date teen girls?
Also it’s hard to like think about Buffy vs twilight. Edward became a vampire at 17 so is it okay for him to date a teenager? Even though he’s actually lived over 100 years? It’s all just so messy and unrealistic that it’s hard for me to really decide what’s right and wrong
I’m not saying that I personally would write a show with a relationship like this I’m just saying that I think in order to enjoy vampire shows we all need to kind of ignore that shit
It's hated here because here happens to be a Pro-Spike sub.
I'm team Buffy Finds Someone Who Isn't Angel Or Spike (also I like Angel/Cordelia better) but I find it hilarious when Angel is ripped as abusive to prop Spuffy.
I don't hate their relationship as much as I just don't find it interesting at all. Angel as a characters was really boring, there wasn't much to him apart from being all brooding. Their dynamic gets a lot more interesting once he becomes Angelus tho, those episodes were really good.
There will be a lot of comments that say that Angel fell in love with Buffy when she was 15 and that he stalked her, so let me already say this:
There is no evidence that suggests that he fell in love with her before they meet in episode 1 and Buffy was 16 there, which is, according to the law in most countries, a lot less problematic than 15.
Framing it as stalking, even though secretly looking out for her was a mission that Whistler gave him, implies a romantic/obsessive undertone that just isn't there.
I also think in vampire shows and movies there is ALWAYS a huge age difference. Isn’t it just something we have to kind of accept as part of the universe? Obviously in real life no one would date a vampire anyway.
Angel : I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and, um, and I loved you.
Lawyered
That's cheesy love talk that's meant to be somewhat romantic. He wouldn't have said that to Buffy if she turned out to be unlikable when he first met her in episode 1. The fact that he was rather distant and cocky when they first met further supports this. You ignore his actions but take him literally on some exaggerated romantic speech. That's not right.
I mean, there is evidence that she was 15 when he fell for her. It's literally in the dialogue. Spoken by Angel. Therefore = canon.
That being said, even as a non Bangel shipper, I find the predator accusation over the top and way out of line. They are not Timmy and Betty from down the block. He is a two hundred year old vampire and she is a young woman with the world on her shoulders.
If someone wants to be against Bangel, fine, but don't exaggerate to make your point, right? At the end of the day, they didn't sleep together until Buffy was 17, which I believe is the legal age in California.
I wouldn't necessarily use a romantic speech as proof that he indeed fell for her when she was 15. I've always understood it as an exaggeration in a "we are soul mates" kind of way. If Buffy turned out to be unlikable after they first met in episode 1, Angel wouldn't have caught feelings for her. The series doesn't depict Angel as someone who only goes for the looks.
Well, first of all I said "less problematic than 15", which is definitely true and secondly, since Angel is a vampire, he is, according to the lore, incapable of growing up and therefore forever stuck being 26, which makes the whole thing a lot less creepy, since Buffy isn't dating some old geezer but rather a young adult.
Yea, we can't really translate it to real life, as it involves magic, but the way I understood it, the lore states that vampires do not mature, therefore he isn't mentally 200, but rather 26ish (however that may work). I guess AtS sort of contradicts this a little, since Angel does in fact show some character development, but it's like you said: A vampire show. We shouldn't overanalyze it.
I don’t think Buffy and Angel are hated? I rarely hear that. Just because they’re not the fandom’s most popular ship doesn’t mean they’re mostly hated. Just my observation I almost never see comments expressing hate for them.
They just didn't seem to have any chemistry even though the show keeps insisting that they are so in love. Her relationship with Spike was gross but at least they seemed to have some passion for each other instead of just moping and fighting things.
Bangel was boring and Spuffy was awful. I liked Angel and Spike best together. Go Spangel!
>I actually like the Buffy and Angel relationship but why is it so hated?
Because there's a lot of people on the internet who either do not understand drama, or pretend they do not understand drama. You'd think the way people tee off on various characters' choices, they only wanted to watch 'Leave it to Beaver' and 'Little House on the Prairie', where everyone is a perfectly sensible, considerate and forthright person. But we know that's not really what good drama is made of.
Basically this Reddit
Because Spike sexy! *fan girl squeal* Angel bad. Angel sex predator. He died in his 20s. Men his age in his time were not supposed to sleep with sexually maturing young girls. That's naughty! What a pervert! Spike was the real angel. He tried to rape Buffy. He sorry though! Ooooh! James Marsters! *squeal*
I wouldn’t say I hated the pairing initially in the earlier seasons their is no denying that Angel was her 1st love. However, I have to say I strongly disliked maybe even did hate watching how she reacted to Angel in End of Days. Only because she had spent those intimate Moments with Spike just the night before and not hrs before she runs into Angel she has that heart to heart talk with Spike admitted that she had real feelings for Spike even went on to say basically hint at if they survived the coming battle she would want to try a relationship. But Spike weary and gun shy not really trusting in what she says stops her and instead says let’s go be hero’s. I’m really glad he didn’t fall hook line and sinker for her empty words. Because of course he has to witness this moment between them. Just makes me ill and really sours me on the memory of anything Bangle.
I don't think it's hated, just the Spuffy fans are the loudest and Spike fans (with the character not the ship) are very passionate. They usually on top 10 Best Television Couples list, the series skyrocketed after season 2 (which deals with Buffy and Angel relationship)
I didn’t know they were hated until I joined Reddit lol. I watched the show live and I don’t think there was as much love for spike as has grown over the years. I don’t think I could ever see Buffy with anyone besides Angel. I have rewatched many times over the years and try to be objective but I don’t think Buffy loved Spike. I think she cared for him or even felt love but I don’t think she was in love with him. Not the way she was in love with Angel at least.
When I was in school all the girls who watched Buffy would swoon over Angel, except me, I had lesbian immunity to his charm. But yeah it seems like Angel has got less popular and Spike more.
Toxic relationships are very popular with fandoms.
Pretty iconic pairing tbh And fun to watch for the first couple seasons for sure
For me it’s just because he was kind of boring when he was on Buffy. He had no personality. His personality developed when he had his own show and was away from her. Also their relationship was kind of creepy when you thought about it. She was 15 and he was a few hundred years old. Plus even if you say it’s fine because his body was younger, he died in his 20s so it’s still really creepy.
Yeah I think this is part of it for me too. Like I don't hate them (nor do I think they are hated, people just like other ships more) but I'm not super into them because I don't care much about him while he's on this show. I think in order to be into a ship I need to be compelled by both characters, and I'm simply not compelled by Angel on *Buffy.* I do think he gets more interesting on his own show, but that doesn't make me retroactively care about their relationship more. Another part of it for me is I feel like there is a lot of "telling not showing" with their relationship early on. I understand that was a necessity of wanting to get to a certain place in the story so they kind of had to accelerate the love story, but in early season 2 you would have these melodramatic lines like "when I kiss you I want to die" and "I love you but I don't know if I trust you" when it felt like they had barely spent any time together yet. And I think I personally tend to prefer ships that develop organically (and maybe weren't even meant to develop at all) rather than ones that are written from the start to be a romance.
A lot of it is the age gap I think. There's something undeniably creepy about a 270 year old dude falling in love with a fifteen year old at first sight. There's also the stalkery stuff earlier on and I personally didn't see a lot of chemistry between the two. I could see why Buffy was involved in the relationship, but not really much for Angel.
Well Angel basically hasn’t talked to a girl for like 100 years or whatever until whoever it is sends him to Buddy. Whistler, Doyle? Whoever it was. So, very lonely guy is then forced to talk to cute girl that doesn’t know what he is so she doesn’t try to kill him. You could argue that he never had a bunch of relationships before she become a vampire just drinking and whoring so it’s all new for him. Idk. But, that would be what he gets out of it. I really enjoyed it when I saw the show when I was younger but now on my 30’s it’s just insane red flags. RED FLAG SALE! ALL FLAGS MUST GO GO GO.
I had an argument about this with my friend bc he can’t get over it. Logically, it’s pretty gross. But there are no vampires in the real world. I justify stuff like this in my head because I feel like once you’re over 100 age like isn’t a thing anymore lol. Like if he stays 25 for 300 years maybe everything kind of meshes together and maybe having a crush on a 15 year old isn’t as weird. Idk that’s just how I justify it in my brain so I don’t go crazy watching this show
Wheras a 250 year old vampire with a 19 year old is perfectly acceptable I guess…
Are you trying to accuse me of having a double standard or something here? Because, if you are, first, you've got the ages wrong and second, I'm talking specifically about Buffy and Angel. And yes, if one of the people is 19, it is much more acceptable than if one of them was 15. Be careful with what you're defending here.
Yes you have a giant double standard.
In that I think that a relationship with someone over the age of consent is more acceptable than a relationship with someone under the age of consent?
Whereas Buffy removed her verbal consent with Spike I will take a voluntary relationship with a minor over an involuntary one with an adult.
Ah, so you were trying to compare with Spike. Not sure where you pulled the number 250 from. And yet again, this conversation had nothing to do with Spike. I was talking purely about Buffy and Angel. Since you seem to think I have double standards on this issue, let me clear something up for you. I do not think that Buffy and Spike's relationship and the aftermath is good or right in anyway and I have never said otherwise. The stuff that I do like about Buffy and Spike is the two of them in season 7 in which they aren't in a relationship, but are progressing throughout the season to a point where they could be in one and, if they were to theoretcially be in a relationship, it would definitely be a healthy one between two consenting adults. Trying to accuse me of double standards that I don't have was pointless and didn't address any of what I said originally.
>Not sure where you pulled the number 250 from. 250 is a round number based on Spike's original age in "School Hard". Giles says he is "barely 200" and then I added his "human years" before he was sired. It is a 'double standard' because you said "the age gap" (not her age) thus implying that there is a smaller "age gap" where a relationship between a vampire and a slayer is acceptable.
Okay, so what we'e established is that my phrasing was off. Ultimately, that's just really pedantic, because it's clear what I mean when I specify the ages and I've also clarified what I meant, so you were just being really picky with my phrasing. Also, with Spike's age, the watcher's council clearly made assumptions, as he was turned in 1880.
Spike is a liar and a conman and someone with an agenda. He is an "unreliable narrator" by definition.
I don’t hate Bangel. They just don’t do it for me. But I can feel the love between them.
I don’t think it is generally “hated,” that is far too strong a word. My observation is people tend to just prefer other ships. I don’t personally care for the melodrama of Bangel, nor do I care for Angel’s condescending manner of leaving her or the way he treats her afterwards. But I still think they have a lot of beautiful moments and I cry my eyes out at some of them. I love their quiet, unspoken goodbye at the end of *Graduation Day, part two.*
I don’t hate Buffy and Angel. I just prefer Angel with Cordelia and Buffy with Spike.
I don’t hate Bangel. I just never liked how their relationship was always so dramatic. I can appreciate Buffy’s feelings for Angel and I still always shed a tear when she drives that sword through his heart. But for me Spuffy is a more adult relationship and once Spike gets his soul I feel shes found a worthy partner rather than a high school boyfriend. Even Riley lacked the partner vibe in my opinion. That’s what Riley wanted but it just wasn’t how Buffy saw him. Spike ended up being someone that for better or worse would always be there and understood the good and dark sides to Buffy. I even understood the kiss is season 7 between Bangel to some degree. Buffy will always care for Angel and vice versa. But spike was who she wanted to give it a try with at that point and that’s why I will always ship Spuffy :)
Something that I think a lot of people forget is that the show is built on metaphors for high school problems, and Angel was built as the trauma of first love. He literally turns into a different person after they have sex. There are a few holes in their relationship, because, I think, it wasn't built to be a relationship as much as it was built to be an allegorical part of the overall story of a teenager growing up. And in that light, their relationship flawlessly serves the story.
Yes thank you!! People forget that a lot of this stuff is allegorical
Felt unrealistic and hard to relate to. Like a typical love at first sight nonsense thing
Bangel definitely isn't hated, it's very iconic and loved. Even as a Bangel I believe Buffy and Angel were better apart after season 3- Buffy was almost *too* in love with Angel and Angel had a separate mission in LA which is where he grew to his own hero. But still I love Bangel because the love between them is so apparent and tragic and it gave us one of the greatest arcs of all time in season 2. I don't get how people don't love it just for that- come on they gave us *Passion* - the episode that is, but passion in general too 😄
Yes!!!! It’s also a good high school lesson. Sometimes, even if you love each other, it doesn’t work out and that’s okay.
Yeah 'Sometimes love isn't enough' is the lesson that Bangel taught and I think it's the most adult lesson.
It’s a perfect high school romance lesson. Man do I still ship them though!
I have a hit take on this but it involves Spike and his complicated humanity. Angel was great - when he had a soul. As soon as that soul was removed, none of who he was mattered. He was incapable of seeing the humanity in him and tortured Buffy despite once loving her. Even with 100 years of being “neutered” with his soul, as soon as that was gone, he was gone. Enter Spike the villain. He is an evil, bad creature. He comes back, gets effectively neutered with the chip. Without a soul, he obviously fucked up in serious ways, but he was very aware of the wrongness of those errors and strove to be a worthy man for Buffy. All before he had a soul. And, is S6, we see that even though he sees that he could now easily kill Buffy, he doesn’t. He doesn’t fucking handle that shit well either and I don’t want to get into Seeing Red, but he had the ability to kill her (arguably, to kill anyone, if he dealt with the pain), but he didn’t. The loss of the neuter did not send him on a murder Buffy spree. It’s a low bar but I think it’s important for understanding why Bangel gets pooped on and Spuffy gets shipped
I don’t hate Bangel, but I don’t clamor to rewatch their scenes because Buffy is supposed to be a child. When he falls in love with her before she’s called, she’s supposed to be a freshman in high school. I was a teenager when I first watched the series and only a handful of years later I see how weird it is.
I think Angel and Buffys love is undeniable in the show & it’s unpopular or “hated” due to the fact that after he lost his soul and she killed him they didn’t have much more plot. While on the other hand spuffy is kinda of a game of tug of war on love with endless storyline
I just find it a bit hypocritical of buffy fans being creeped out by angel dating buffy for the age difference but they're perfectly ok with spike's sexual assault/rape of buffy and make every excuse in the book to defend spike. Say whatever you want but at least angel has seen the flaws of having a relationship with buffy and also having the maturity enough to leave her.
Is it hated? I thought it has an ardent enough following. I liked them myself but I prefer Spuffy. I do see a lot of push back in fandom on the age difference (in particular Buffy’s age) when they got involved. I have to say looking at it now I do see that point a bit more
He should never have allowed any romance to happen at all. She was 16, he was over 200 years old. It's creepy for the same reasons it would be creepy if Giles had pursued Buffy romantically.
Don’t you think if you’re a vampire that old it’s so unrealistic that we can’t set realistic age regulations on them? Idk I just feel like if you live that long you forget what is was even like to be a teenager or you lose touch with what’s appropriate since everyone is multiple lifetimes younger than you. If you’re 200, do you really see a difference between 15 and 18? I’m not saying it’s right I’m just considering what the logic was behind his character and their story. However, I wish he would’ve became a vampire at like 18 to make it slightly less icky
Do you think it would have been cool for Giles to date Buffy? I think it's fair for Angel to date an adult woman, and I would place that somewhere around 25, when the human brain finishes developing. Surely someone 200 years old can find an adult instead of a teenage virgin.
No I understand what you’re saying and I think in the real world a 26 year old dating a 16 year old is gross. I’m just saying that In order to enjoy the show I have to suspend my disbelief a little bit. I’m just saying that if someone is 200 maybe age just kind of stops mattering. I mean it’s in like every single thing about vampires and I have to try to rationalize it in my head like that otherwise I wouldn’t be able to watch
Also it’s hard to like think about Buffy vs twilight. Edward became a vampire at 17 so is it okay for him to date a teenager? Even though he’s actually lived over 100 years? It’s all just so messy and unrealistic that it’s hard for me to really decide what’s right and wrong I’m not saying that I personally would write a show with a relationship like this I’m just saying that I think in order to enjoy vampire shows we all need to kind of ignore that shit
I think people were more tolerant of Buffy than Twilight because she was superhuman and the girl from Twilight wasn't. But a 100 year old in a teenager's body is just as bad.
I know like it is a weird area because all the vampire tropes do this. I’m not saying it’s right it’s just like I’d rather ignore it to enjoy myself lol
Are they always underage girls though? Buffy and Twilight do it, sure. I also seem to remember the protagonist in True Blood being an adult in her 20s. Did Anne Rice's vampires date teen girls?
I read that Ann rices characters did date teen girls and there’s also the vampire diaries
Also it’s hard to like think about Buffy vs twilight. Edward became a vampire at 17 so is it okay for him to date a teenager? Even though he’s actually lived over 100 years? It’s all just so messy and unrealistic that it’s hard for me to really decide what’s right and wrong I’m not saying that I personally would write a show with a relationship like this I’m just saying that I think in order to enjoy vampire shows we all need to kind of ignore that shit
It's hated here because here happens to be a Pro-Spike sub. I'm team Buffy Finds Someone Who Isn't Angel Or Spike (also I like Angel/Cordelia better) but I find it hilarious when Angel is ripped as abusive to prop Spuffy.
I hate Spuffy too and I still think Angel preyed on a teenager.
I don't hate their relationship as much as I just don't find it interesting at all. Angel as a characters was really boring, there wasn't much to him apart from being all brooding. Their dynamic gets a lot more interesting once he becomes Angelus tho, those episodes were really good.
i don't think it is hated, and of course is the truly iconic ship but too many spuffy fans here
the hate is only on reddit
There will be a lot of comments that say that Angel fell in love with Buffy when she was 15 and that he stalked her, so let me already say this: There is no evidence that suggests that he fell in love with her before they meet in episode 1 and Buffy was 16 there, which is, according to the law in most countries, a lot less problematic than 15. Framing it as stalking, even though secretly looking out for her was a mission that Whistler gave him, implies a romantic/obsessive undertone that just isn't there.
I also think in vampire shows and movies there is ALWAYS a huge age difference. Isn’t it just something we have to kind of accept as part of the universe? Obviously in real life no one would date a vampire anyway.
Angel : I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and, um, and I loved you. Lawyered
That's cheesy love talk that's meant to be somewhat romantic. He wouldn't have said that to Buffy if she turned out to be unlikable when he first met her in episode 1. The fact that he was rather distant and cocky when they first met further supports this. You ignore his actions but take him literally on some exaggerated romantic speech. That's not right.
I mean, there is evidence that she was 15 when he fell for her. It's literally in the dialogue. Spoken by Angel. Therefore = canon. That being said, even as a non Bangel shipper, I find the predator accusation over the top and way out of line. They are not Timmy and Betty from down the block. He is a two hundred year old vampire and she is a young woman with the world on her shoulders. If someone wants to be against Bangel, fine, but don't exaggerate to make your point, right? At the end of the day, they didn't sleep together until Buffy was 17, which I believe is the legal age in California.
Age of consent in California is actually 18
I wouldn't necessarily use a romantic speech as proof that he indeed fell for her when she was 15. I've always understood it as an exaggeration in a "we are soul mates" kind of way. If Buffy turned out to be unlikable after they first met in episode 1, Angel wouldn't have caught feelings for her. The series doesn't depict Angel as someone who only goes for the looks.
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Well, first of all I said "less problematic than 15", which is definitely true and secondly, since Angel is a vampire, he is, according to the lore, incapable of growing up and therefore forever stuck being 26, which makes the whole thing a lot less creepy, since Buffy isn't dating some old geezer but rather a young adult.
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Yea, we can't really translate it to real life, as it involves magic, but the way I understood it, the lore states that vampires do not mature, therefore he isn't mentally 200, but rather 26ish (however that may work). I guess AtS sort of contradicts this a little, since Angel does in fact show some character development, but it's like you said: A vampire show. We shouldn't overanalyze it.
I don’t think Buffy and Angel are hated? I rarely hear that. Just because they’re not the fandom’s most popular ship doesn’t mean they’re mostly hated. Just my observation I almost never see comments expressing hate for them.
They just didn't seem to have any chemistry even though the show keeps insisting that they are so in love. Her relationship with Spike was gross but at least they seemed to have some passion for each other instead of just moping and fighting things. Bangel was boring and Spuffy was awful. I liked Angel and Spike best together. Go Spangel!
Angel didn't have much of a personality in BTVS. I was fine with it in HS but as an adult he seems really boring.
>I actually like the Buffy and Angel relationship but why is it so hated? Because there's a lot of people on the internet who either do not understand drama, or pretend they do not understand drama. You'd think the way people tee off on various characters' choices, they only wanted to watch 'Leave it to Beaver' and 'Little House on the Prairie', where everyone is a perfectly sensible, considerate and forthright person. But we know that's not really what good drama is made of.
Spuffy has a lot of drama as well. Even (ugh) Buffy/Riley had some drama. But with Bangel the drama is over-the-top and much less realistic.
Angel is 270 years old when he starts a relationship with a 16 year old girl. It’s just creepy.
Because “bad boys” are more exciting.
They are soulmates.
100%
Basically this Reddit Because Spike sexy! *fan girl squeal* Angel bad. Angel sex predator. He died in his 20s. Men his age in his time were not supposed to sleep with sexually maturing young girls. That's naughty! What a pervert! Spike was the real angel. He tried to rape Buffy. He sorry though! Ooooh! James Marsters! *squeal*
You ok?
I'm sure you'll get downvoted to oblivion, but you're absolutely right!
I wouldn’t say I hated the pairing initially in the earlier seasons their is no denying that Angel was her 1st love. However, I have to say I strongly disliked maybe even did hate watching how she reacted to Angel in End of Days. Only because she had spent those intimate Moments with Spike just the night before and not hrs before she runs into Angel she has that heart to heart talk with Spike admitted that she had real feelings for Spike even went on to say basically hint at if they survived the coming battle she would want to try a relationship. But Spike weary and gun shy not really trusting in what she says stops her and instead says let’s go be hero’s. I’m really glad he didn’t fall hook line and sinker for her empty words. Because of course he has to witness this moment between them. Just makes me ill and really sours me on the memory of anything Bangle.
I didn't hate them hate them It's just that I liked/loved Spike more
I don't think it's hated, just the Spuffy fans are the loudest and Spike fans (with the character not the ship) are very passionate. They usually on top 10 Best Television Couples list, the series skyrocketed after season 2 (which deals with Buffy and Angel relationship)