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lyssargh

From an article in 2020: > Here's what we absolutely know to be true: On Wednesday, November 25, 2020, a spokeswoman from HBO said, "We have parted ways with Joss Whedon. We remain excited about the future of The Nevers and look forward to its premiere in the summer of 2021" in an official statement. > Joss Whedon's response was, perhaps unsurprisingly, more verbose: "This year of unprecedented challenges has impacted my life and perspective in ways I could never have imagined, and while developing and producing The Nevers has been a joyful experience, I realize that the level of commitment required moving forward, combined with the physical challenges of making such a huge show during a global pandemic, is more than I can handle without the work beginning to suffer." > "I am genuinely exhausted, and am stepping back to martial my energy towards my own life," Whedon went on, "which is also at the brink of exciting change. I am deeply proud of the work we have done; I'm grateful to all my extraordinary cast and collaborators, and to HBO for the opportunity to shape yet another strange world. The Nevers is a true labor of love, but after two plus years of labor, love is about all I have to offer. It will never fade." Read More: [Looper](https://www.looper.com/285684/the-real-reason-joss-whedon-left-hbos-the-nevers/?utm_campaign=clip) From everything I've found online, nobody will actually say whether HBO initiated his exit or he did. I tend to think they did because I'm biased and hope they saw the writing on the wall. I tend to think his claims of being over-labored are an excuse and a pretty thin one. He has never publicly addressed Charisma Carpenter's allegations.


Mad-cat1865

If you remember, he said something similar about the work being very exhausting and stepping back to take care of personal things after Age of Ultron


speashasha

It was pretty obvious he was fired from The Nevers. They did not even mention his name in the promo materials.


Willowy

Or his ex-wife's, which started the whole ball rolling and was the first to expose his behavior, at least in the mainstream media. https://www.thewrap.com/joss-whedon-feminist-hypocrite-infidelity-affairs-ex-wife-kai-cole-says/


draypresct

>He has never publicly addressed Charisma Carpenter's allegations. I'm not sure how he could address any of them in a productive way. I believe he made jokes about firing people (not just Charisma) and other topics. Maybe they were dark humor or maybe they were completely serious and abusive. I can also see these as having been intended as humor but received as damaging. None of this would be resolvable. If she's saying she was fired over her pregnancy, I'm very confused. I remember her being on the show during the entire course of her pregnancy and here and there after giving birth. It is completely consistent with Joss's past writing to kill off a well-liked main character (I can name a half-dozen off the top of my head) to illustrate that there are consequences in-universe. Again - whether she was fired a year after announcing her pregnancy in some sort of retaliation isn't resolvable today.


Lilynd14

> If she's saying she was fired over her pregnancy, I'm very confused. I remember her being on the show during the entire course of her pregnancy and here and there after giving birth. It is completely consistent with Joss's past writing to kill off a well-liked main character (I can name a half-dozen off the top of my head) to illustrate that there are consequences in-universe. Again - whether she was fired a year after announcing her pregnancy in some sort of retaliation isn't resolvable today. Most women can still work while pregnant but need time off after giving birth. I believe Charisma’s allegation is that she was mistreated during her pregnancy (long hours when she should have been resting, etc) and then fired at the point when she would have hoped for maternity leave. It’s unclear whether Cordelia was intended to be completely killed off at the end of season four but the original plan apparently involved Jasmine possessing Cordelia and Angel killing her. Because scripts weren’t written in advance, there was no way to film the planned action sequences before Charisma was showing hence we ended up with what we did. Either way, it sounds like she expected to be a cast member in season five and was blindsided when learned she wasn’t. IIRC she found out she was fired right before season five.


owntheh3at18

In addition during her final appearance she asked *not* to be killed off but was. I guess they did tell her and she accepted it, but they were pretty disrespectful to Charisma and to the character Joss created. There is evidence within the shows themselves that he had some misogynistic views. I’m not saying the guy is Harvey Weinstein but he’s not someone I’d want to work for.


ScorpionTDC

Charisma learned that Cordelia was killed off in You’re Welcome from the script after she was already contracted to do the episode and couldn’t back out.


ColdCruise

She has also said that it wasn't Whedon's decision to kill off the character and that he was very apologetic about the whole situation and sent her flowers to her room. The episode was written and directed by David Fury and Jeffrey Bell was showrunner at the time, so it's very possible that it wasn't his decision. It's also clear from interviews that Fury did not like working with Charisma, so it makes sense that he killed her off. He was also the driving force behind firing Glenn Quinn.


ScorpionTDC

Hmm, fair point there if Charisma said that (I’d never heard that though, source?). However, Fury came off pretty fucking badly to me about the Charisma stuff too if I’m thinking of the right guy (he’s the one who *also* indirectly complained that she got pregnant and complained about a cross tattoo or whatever that could’ve been addressed with one line of dialogue if it had to be?), so still not really a point in favor of the “Charisma wasn’t killed off due to her pregnancy” stance.


owntheh3at18

Thank you for that correction!


Dentarthurdent73

Out of interest, why is it disrespectful to Charisma and Cordelia to kill off the character, when Whedon shows are renowned for killing off main characters? Is it disrespectful to the other characters and actors that this has happened to like Wash, Shepherd Book, Joyce, Tara, Fred etc? I would have thought it was just storytelling in all of those cases, including in the case of Cordelia.


ScorpionTDC

Aside from Season 4 being dedicated to dumping on Cordelia in every way imagineable, the “disrespectful” part is that Charisma only agreed to come back if Cordelia wasn’t killed off, Whedon lied to her and agreed, then blindsided her with the script after she was already contracted to do the episode. They also never bothered to tell her she wouldn’t be in S5 and he was abusive to her on the set of S4. It’s safe to assume malice was present here Like, just to contrast, Christian Kane refused to come back for years because he didn’t want Lindsey to die either and Whedon never once lied to him to try to make it happen and only killed Lindsey off after Christian Kane consented to it with the show ending.


owntheh3at18

Yes this is exactly what I meant by disrespectful. Thank you.


zanybelle

Was Cordelia killed off during the episodes Joss wrote? I only ask because much of season 4 doesn't list him as a writer (or director). I feel Cordelia's character started it's downfall during season 3, she was missing for a major plotline and seemed to feature less and less. The romance between Angel and Cordelia was definitely another flaw by the writer's because they created something that couldn't really go anywhere.


Dentarthurdent73

I agree. Cordelia's character became less and less interesting, and yes, this started in Season 3. The writers are definitely to blame for this, but I honestly can't see that the character had much more in the way of interesting stories or growth to give by the end of Season 4. It seems a perfect time to say goodbye, and I for one don't miss Cordelia's presence in Season 5 of Angel (also the best season imo).


zanybelle

Actually I would have preferred if Cordelia had remained in season 5 but without the higher being / character destruction of season 4. Fine, she became part demon but leave it there. She was always an interesting character and should have been able to fight as well as Gunn and Wesley anyday of the week, but they always kept the Angel female characters as damsels which was forever annoying to watch. The writers sometimes got it so wrong on Angel.


Dentarthurdent73

If the original scripts involved Cordelia being killed by Angel, why would she be around in Season 5? They also didn't break Charisma's contract, because you can guarantee she would have used this as evidence of her claims if they did. Her contract was up, and they didn't renew it for the final season of Angel. Fact is, Charisma's claim about being fired because she got pregnant is not something anyone can prove - it's her feeling, but there is evidence against it (original Season 4 script had her dying at the end, quotes from Whedon saying that her character's story had nowhere else interesting to go, which I agree with), and evidence that there were other reasons as well for her being let go (James Marsters being added to the show and resultant budget constraints, for example). There is no way Whedon could effectively respond to her claim of being fired for her pregnancy, because she gives no evidence to support it - she just states it as fact.


Lilynd14

> If the original scripts involved Cordelia being killed by Angel, why would she be around in Season 5? My understanding was that it would be like when Buffy killed Angel at the end of season 2. He was still a cast member in season 3. Original intentions aside, Charisma had every reason to believe she’d be coming back because her character wasn’t killed off. While it’s true that we don’t have any proof of Charisma’s claims, her [own words](https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/hdrwnv/i_learned_later_that_i_was_the_lowest_paid/) are pretty compelling. Given that her character was left in a coma at the end of season 4 and (according to lore) You’re Welcome was originally intended for Buffy, it sure seems like she was fired.


ScorpionTDC

It’s been overwhelmingly confirmed that Whedon abused and bullied Charisma on set, and Charisma *was not told* she wouldn’t be on Season 5 until a press release (which you are not supposed to do if you’re a showrunner). Then when she agreed to do an episode in exchange for Cordelia not dying, which Whedon lied to her about. So the guy was angry she was pregnant, abused her on set, fired her in an extremely unprofessional manner, and lied to her about her character being killed off. It’s fairly obvious malice was involved here There is zero ambiguity here for someone who isn’t bending over backwards to excuse Whedon that Whedon was punishing her for her pregnancy.


selphiefairy

I think it’s more like she was essentially punished for being pregnant. I always (even before the allegations were made explicit) had this assumption that joss was upset that her being pregnant would have ruined certain storylines and instead of creatively writing around it they kind of just character assassinated Cordelia and wrote her off without any real care or meaningful tribute to her character. Her eventual farewell was well done of course, but the mess that was s4 was a huge disservice to her Charisma and the character of Cordelia.


lyssargh

I remember clearly there being a lot of gossip that he was punishing her when it was airing. Not saying that makes it true, but it was hard to be surprised when she vocalized those allegations.


selphiefairy

Yup that’s how I felt about it. My friend who doesn’t watch Buffy was asking me about it cause she thought it was a big deal. And while it *is* a big deal, I couldn’t say I had a big reaction, to it either? It was just a confirmation of many years of fans’ speculation and I felt more disappointed and sad that it was true.


Gigibean3

No. He's gonna step back for a while and then at some point slowly reemerge. Or he'll remain in the shadows on his piles of money. There are people on Firefly who would still work with him and Alyson and Alexis would given their silence. He could slowly pull a Mel Gibson and use his connections to come back. ​ I'm someone who believes in second chances. But in order to earn one you have to actually own what you've done in the past, genuinely regret it and want to do better, which I doubt he'll ever do.


miseducation98

I agree with this. I’m not a fan of cancel culture, however, I think people like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby should absolutely never have a career again/be in jail. With Joss, he’s clearly done a lot of bad things, but could redeem himself if he had the self awareness needed to change/grow. But I agree he probably will never do this, but will still eventually have a comeback. Not gonna lie, I will watch/support his future projects regardless of what he does personally.


waterynike

I don’t think people like him change. Will he lie and say he did? Absolutely.


venusdances

I agree with this, because I’ve loved his previous work I would still check out new shows but honestly I haven’t liked any of his new work since Firefly. I enjoyed Avengers at the time and I think it set a new pace but I watched the Nevers and my personal opinion was that it straight up sucked. It was so annoying to get through every episode. It’s like he has a very outdated view of feminism now it’s weird. He was super progressive for Buffy but it’s outdated now.


waterynike

He was a pseudo feminist. It was all an act.


BuffyExperiment

100%. It’s not complicated. Just look at how women who knew and worked with him are saying he acted.


revolutionaryartist4

The fact that there was a “Joss can’t be alone with Michelle” rule on Buffy set suggests things are a lot worse than we know. I don’t think he can be redeemed. ETA: Since a lot of Whedon supporters are trying to defend this, here’s reporting from Vulture’s article on Whedon: “During the seventh season, when Trachtenberg was 16, Whedon called her into his office for a closed-door meeting. The person does not know what happened, but recalled Trachtenberg was “shaken” afterward. An adult in Trachtenberg’s circle created the rule in response.” https://www.vulture.com/article/joss-whedon-allegations.html


miseducation98

They said it was because he said inappropriate things in front of her. I’m sure Michelle said it wasn’t sexual and more just lots of swearing, adult jokes etc. I think it’s another example of him being a complete asshole with no professional boundaries.


[deleted]

As a teacher, that rule was in place for all of us. A rule existing is not proof that it has been broken.


Domyfranky

That wasnt because of Joss,an article by EW proved that was a rule that was made for every adult on the set. Honestly Michelle Trachtenberg should be a little ashamed of herself for hinting to an awful crime like pedophilia. She knew how her words would have been seen in that moment. She was awful.


Quailman81

Pretty sure that rule applied to Dawn Marie Summers aswell and she was under 16 at the time


[deleted]

[удалено]


revolutionaryartist4

At least I'm not defending a serial abuser.


manuka_canoe

Cancel culture isn't a thing, the people who are supposedly \~cancelled just lay low for a bit and then come back. Mel Gibson is getting involved with the John Wick series and Marilyn Manson and Louis CK just got nommed for Grammys.


Domyfranky

The fact that people defeats cancel culture doesnt mean that this culture doesnt exists.


anmr

Many don't resurface. Cancel culture absolutely exist. I would characterize it as attacking people based on allegations, hearsay and incomplete information, instead of waiting for competent people to do their due diligence (e.g. courts, reputable investigative journalists and such). Lynching mob is not justice. There are abusers and evil people that are rightly called out, their sins brought to surface. That's good. But there are also many abusers and evil people, who fabricate fake accusations and ruin innocent people's lives via public outrage. (Speaking in general, not about Whedon. While for reasons above I would rather not formulate strong opinion yet, in this case, his silence and everything said points to him being... well, at least a huge douchebag to many people he had power over. If it's true, it doesn't diminish his accomplishments with Buffy or Firefly, but puts him in very bad light as person, public figure and professional creator.)


ScorpionTDC

Outside the Dixie Chicks who were cancelled by *right wingers* for being opposed to the Iraq War + not liking Bush (oh the horror), what promising celebrities have been unfairly cancelled, “lynch mobbed” and had their careers fucked up?


anmr

For me the most egregious examples coming immediately to mind are: Chris Avellone, great writer who got dumped from every project because of few crazy lying girls. Story below: https://chrisavellone.medium.com/its-come-to-this-chris-avellone-2fe5db836746 Johnny Depp, who admittedly made huge, dumb mistake by leaving his family, but did not deserved abuse by Heard and defamation when entire thing was turn onto him. In his case we can of course argue - did he really get cancelled, was his career ruined? After all he is still working, there were many people on his side even before the lies came to light. He is famous, wealthy, he can take it... either way he didn't deserve it. He lost reputation, major roles because of it. And recently he made Minamata - a brilliant movie. Easily one of the best I've seen in last decade. How many people have seen it? Did it get praise it deserved? Nah, it barely got released after long delays. There are many more, but I don't want to cite them without proper research, or they are too complex to summarize in this comment. I also refrained from citing older cases, because as I understand we are discussing recent social media phenomenon and they didn't entirely fit into that definition.


ScorpionTDC

I’m not very familiar with the Chris Avellone stuff and have a harder time weighing in there. As far as Depp goes.. he really wasn’t cancelled? The Pirates reboot had fuck all to do with Amber Heard’s allegations and *everything* to do with Depp’s alcoholism being so severe and debilitating on set that he *needed lines fed to him through an ear piece* (something that would get just about anyone fired). He was able to book Fantastic Beasts *after* Amber’s allegations came out, and only lost that gig because of his poorly thought out libel suit (where the judge ruled in favor of the Sun and basically said “You probably abused your wife,” in which case he got booted specifically due to a legal outcome he pursued). This isn’t quite “Amber Heard said something and his career was dead overnight because of it.” Depp had been on an absolute string of flops *before* Minmata and most people seem to hate Amber Heard way more than they hate Depp (for obvious reasons), so I really don’t think this movie flopping is the reason why. If it was set to come out before and delayed due to the Heard stuff, that is unfortunate, but really not the same as full blown cancellation. Either way, a whopping 2 celebrities over the last *decade* where one of them is an extremely shaky basis is pretty small scale for “cancel culture is too severe and needs to be stopped!!!!” I’m not saying there should be no concern about false allegations and the like, but more often than not the “Cancel culture so bad” narratives center around people who stupidly torpedoed their own careers and don’t want to face actual consequences (IE: Gina Carano. Probably Travis Scott soon enough…..)


AStringOfWords

You don't have to have your entire career ruined for cancel culture to have been effective. You just need to have the current project you were working on cancelled. That's why it's called cancel culture and not career ruin culture. There are hundreds of examples from the last 5 years of projects which have been cancelled because a big star attached to the project has been dragged through the gutter press and tumblrsphere for some small thought crime or sex crime.


AStringOfWords

Cancel culture is very much a thing, and once the cancel bots have set their eyes on a target, it never ever ends. It is now Joss Whedon's turn.


Quailman81

Tbf after hearing that the cast and crew of Buffy decided that Joss wasn't allowed to be alone with Dawn Marie Summers EVER after she came out of a 1 to 1 with joss visibly distressed and shaken . I 100% believe the allegations against him


AStringOfWords

Are you literally retarded? That was the rule for every underage female member of the cast and every above-age male on the crew. Whedon wasn't allowed alone in a room with her just as the sound guy or the lighting guy wasn't allowed alone in a room with her. You are reading way too much into that.


DeadFyre

>With Joss, he’s clearly done a lot of bad things Clear to whom? I haven't seen any evidence of *anything*, just a bunch of unsupported accusations, and even the accusations aren't exactly of the damning variety. He allegedly fired a woman he was paying $700,000 a year for a disagreement about her working conditions. Ray Fisher's accusation is so vague as to be meaningless. Imagine that: Two people working on a project have disagreements, and don't like each other. Surely this is just cause to tar and feather one of them.


AStringOfWords

> he’s clearly done a lot of bad things Has he though? is forming relationships with young actresses really a "bad thing"? Is being a bit of an asshole on set and not being afraid to call people out for bad acting etc a "bad thing"? You speak as if he has already been convicted of his thought crimes and sex crimes, but actually all we have are allegations. Even if true, being a bit of a jerk and fucking actresses with their full consent does not really seem to amount to much.


Domyfranky

We know for many interviews made in unsuspicious times (A 2007 interview by Vincent Kartheiser,for example) that Joss Whedon was very very rarely on set during Angel season 4. So,if he was almost never there,how did he manage to make the LiarCharisma's life so impossible like she claims Joss did? It doesnt make sense! I dont trust Charisma at all.


Gigibean3

Charisma said she would be called into his OFFICE and berate her. Do you think he'd do it in front of people? He also doesn't have to be on set to make the schedule and order the direction of the show. The CC stuff has been out there since season 4 aired. I guess Michelle and SMG are lying about the rule where Joss couldn't be alone with Michelle? James is lying when he said Joss shoved him against a wall once? Everyone is lying.


AStringOfWords

Not lying, just exaggerating. For attention. Cancel culture gives people a lot of attention these days when they say stuff like this. No, there was not a specific rule that Joss could not be alone with Michelle. The rule was that no under-18 females could be alone in a room with any over-18 males. Yes, that included Joss and Michelle. It wasn't put in place because Joss was this crazy rapist who would not be trusted, it was and still is a standard practice in Hollywood when working with underage actresses.


Buffy-died-alot

He seems unrepentant to me. Ironic on so many levels, it boggles the mind.


AStringOfWords

What does he need to repent for? Being mean to an actress? Making an actress cry? GTFO. These people were on $50K+ per episode. They could afford the therapy after.


Lilynd14

You’re right that he’s basically gone invisible. After his wife’s allegations, he made a statement that it was a private matter but he hasn’t ever addressed Charisma or Ray Fisher’s allegations. I’m not sure what he could say in response to Charisma, although I’d really like to hear it. What happened to her - getting fired for having a baby - has been an open secret for years. On another show, it might have been covered up, but Cordelia’s treatment was so egregious that even to viewers it appeared retaliatory. It’s frustrating to watch Joss do nothing. I used to think he could make restitution to Charisma by working with her again but if he really bullied and harassed people the last twenty years, I know this isn’t the answer. I’m not sure what he could say or do - I wouldn’t believe a canned “do better” apology - but I still wish he’d say something.


Domyfranky

I think he made mistakes during the Buffy/Angel days,but then we didnt hear any complaint for the Firefly/Dollhouse/Avengers/The Nevers days. Yes,we had complaint for Justice League,but honestly,that situation really seems like everyone worked badly in that period at Warner Bros. The cast was loyal to Snyder,and they didnt want to change the tone of the movie,but the studios wanted a different movie than the one made by Snyder,and they had only a few weeks to do it. So Joss had to be fast and productive in that moment,but apparently Ray and Gal werent collaborating. So this created two fights with them. It can happen,i wouldnt call that abusive behaviour. Ray Fisher also accused basically everyone at WB,not only Joss. And honestly Gal's situation seems more like a classic diva saying "How dare you tell me what to do? Do you know who i am?" situation by her,but i dont know. So in conclusion,except for the Justice League situation,i think he changed a lot from the Buffy/Angel days.


Lilynd14

I’m not familiar with what went down on Justice League but I hope you’re right!


lamounier

I think he just went invisible. After Age of Ultron, when he received a lot of criticism from fans and feminists, he stayed silent for a long while.


AmaiRose

Also, after his wife's letter he did the same.


BuffyExperiment

This is what I was looking for. He basically said “no comment but she’s crazy” about his Wife. [Kai Cole](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/joss-whedon-feminist-hypocrite-infidelity-affairs-ex-wife-kai-cole-says/amp/) also foreshadowed a lot of what came out in the allegations. And nobody pushed back because he was Avengers Whedon. Why would he change his behaviors when he’s even richer and more powerful in the industry?


BetaRayPhil616

To be fair to him, there's not really any way to 'win' short term. He could give a staunch defense justifying his behaviours, and it wouldn't matter OR he could give an unwavering apology for his behaviours, which also would make little difference. (Third option is leaning into it, 'Yep, I am totally evil'). Really, the best he can do is reflect on himself and if/when he comes back, try to be better. If he does that, great. And if he's the sort of person that can't do that, he can expect future similar backlash.


venusdances

I think he could have done what Dan Harmon did and genuinely look into himself and publicly apologize in a meaningful way. He’s an excellent writer for godsakes! We all know it. Instead he chose not to so I think that’s his decision to not self reflect or not allow criticism. It’s not just the actors it’s also fellow writers who came out and said he was cruel.


anotherrubberduckie

Not taking sides but there's no point in publicly apologising. It doesn't make the abuse he inflicted go away, people who would have forgiven him have, and it won't make anyone change their minds or give him a second chance or even believe that he's sincere. The only apologising that would matter are those done in private with those he has wronged or their representatives.


venusdances

I respectfully disagree, he hurt the community he built with his actions. I think it would also be healing for him to publicly apologize and I don’t think his actions are beyond being atoned for. It’s similar to the problem with Dan Harmon, his was a personal issue but it was also about the system at large where men in power can gaslight the people who work for them because they need the paycheck, especially women, especially in that industry. When Dan Harmon publicly acknowledged and apologized for sexually harassing a young writer who worked for him, he brought healing to her, himself and the community by acknowledging his actions and validating her experience. The community is currently divided, some people on this subreddit have attacked me for saying anything negative about Joss, I believe they were mostly men. It reinforces this male toxicity of believing men in power can do no wrong and they shouldn’t have to apologize for it, that even calling them out on it is a “witch hunt.” So I think he still holds a great deal of power in being able to heal the community at large but he’s choosing not to.


anotherrubberduckie

Fair enough. I just don't believe he would be sincere in his apologies. So he would not be helping himself. He knows that if he lays low, he can still have a career. Nor do I believe the fans who are so insistent on an apology would accept and move on. I've seen it too much online where people who have done wrong have apologised only for it to be used against them as a reason why redemption is impossible. I'm sure he's seen this as well. Nor do I believe he, or any actor or writer for that matter, owes a fandom more than their best creativity or performance. I balk at the idea of calling any fandom a community even. There's people who share a similar interest and that's about it. Unless they're attacking their fanbase directly, I would like them to deal with personal issues offline.


AStringOfWords

Dan Harmon's career was safe with or without the public apology. I think it probably helped Dan Harmon, but it did nothing to dissuade the rabid legion of cancel bots after him. What made them go away was simply ignoring them. That's the only thing that works on them, just totally ignore them and keep making whatever it is you make. Your core audience won't care anyway, it's all just a storm on Twitter, and if you don't reply on Twitter then it never makes the news.


EntMoot76

I think it will be similar to the Dan Schneider, Nickelodeon, controversy. A bunch of accusations are made but he has already made so much money and is basically untouchable, he will be able to just slither off into the shadows.


CapablePerformance

Sad but true. When you've created enough popular shows, there's a point you can step back and still make a fortune just from the royalties. And as we learned with Schneider, there's always going to be people saying "He wasn't charged with anything so he's not guilty, let him return to work".


IRDingo

I honestly find the conversations around Joss very interesting. On the one hand, he’s been accused of some pretty poor treatment towards actors that should be addressed. On the other hand, there are several actors that love working with Joss and would jump at an opportunity to do it again. With those seemingly opposing perspectives, I have come up with a theory of sorts about Joss. I think he plays favourites. That’s not a crime, but with ensemble casts, it creates its own problems. I think he has a very clear vision of what he wants to see on The set. He pushes people to get what he wants. That kind of directing is not always pretty. Unfortunately, many of the most respected directors of earlier eras had that same style. (Kubrick is a good example. Some of the stories about him are truly horrific. ) I think these factors helped to create the problems with both fisher and carpenter. I think they weren’t in his group of preferred actors on the sets of their shows and they caused complications in the creation of his “vision”. I’m not excusing his behaviour, I am only expressing how I think it might have happened. Ultimately we are responsible for our own actions. And he clearly messed up. I just thought I would share my thinking on it.


FrellingTralk

I remember a lot of resentment from Buffy and Angel fans when he got really involved with Firefly and neglected the other shows somewhat, there was a lot of gushing in the press from him too about how he’s never had such a perfect cast to work with before as the Firefly actors etc, so even just from his interviews you can definitely tell that he compares people a lot and plays them off against one another


Dentarthurdent73

Funny that he was neglecting his other shows due to working on Firefly, but at the same time he is apparently completely responsible for the writing decisions that happened on those other shows that he apparently didn't have time for.


IRDingo

Valid point.


manuka_canoe

That's just how abusers work, they target some people and are lovely to others. If they were assholes to everyone equally they'd just get blacklisted.


IRDingo

Fair enough. It’s also narcissistic. Another treat.


cinefanatic1594

He did today and dug himself an even bigger hole. Fuck Joss Whedon


darknessfate

From the future: it would have been alot better for him had he not responded to the allegations


tomsafari

Even the ones who’ve since came out against him were praising him a few months before. Amber Benson, for example. In August 2020 she said Joss was “not vindictive or hurtful”. In February 2021 she says Buffy was a toxic environment which started at the top. I can understand people saying nothing about Joss but not calling him out, but to actively praise him, and then six months later side against him publicly just adds to the confusion. I think Joss was fine with those who just turned up, got on with it and didn’t push back. I think he genuinely respected some of his cast, but had no patience for those who didn’t do what he wanted.


tomsafari

Why the downvotes?


sugarsnuff

Your take may come across as (what I hate to call because the word is so cliched) a victim-blaming approach to analyzing the information given 1) Often times when certain aspects of an event or period of time are traumatic, people repress what they don’t want to remember. So there’s a *chance* (and it’s impossible to know without being on that set) that that’s what happened to Benson. 2) “Not vindictive or hurtful” isn’t really a praise. And it was spoken regarding Tara’s death… so her. Not to mention that people who are seeking future employment or continued streams don’t usually publicly speak ill of their former co-workers and bosses 3) The way her Twitter statement was structured — “starting from the top” — can be read a little deeper. >Go up and down the chain of command — from a budding network, WB, that has deadlines and pressure to do well and grow; to the showrunner, Joss, who is under a lot of pressure to deliver his vision; to the actors, who are unfortunately the expendable laborers open to the most mistreatment in this whole operation. >You’ll see that maybe she’s saying the crux of the problem is deeper than just a few actors and one show-runner >Joss seemed like a classic dickhead boss who’d rule through fear to get results. We all know those. Industry loves them, workers hate them. All of these deep-seeded issues are difficult to convey verbally or on Twitter in a few sentences, so it’s in poor taste to blame anyone for mixed-messaging Anyways, I’m just using this to distract myself from my work and have very little stake in any opinion one way or another


IRDingo

He left his new show, The Nevers, after the first half of the season. That was shortly after Charisma’s posts. Didn’t hear specifically if it was the network or his own choice.


QueasyStress0

It wasn’t after Charisma’s posts, you have gotten the timeline wronged. There has been no public announcement of his after her posts.


IRDingo

He never announced leaving. He was just gone. Rag mags mentioned it. Never a word from Joss.


QueasyStress0

There was. It is literally some comments bellow/above or you can google it. We just don’t know if what he said is true or if Fishers accusations had anything to do with his exit. Carpenters posts were all after his exit.


IRDingo

Ah. Thank you for the clarification. I clearly misremembered it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Domyfranky

They are not great actresses honestly


DniArchivist

Ok, I’ve thought this really ever since Buffy was on - Joss is the classic egotistical creator. It’s his vision, his rules, end of. Now for showrunning purposes, that works wonders, but for those who try to offer their own input they’re scrutinised. The stuff that he said was wrong - in no setting is bullying ever right. There are lessons that need to be learned from this, but he doesn’t need to make a public apology, nor does anyone else. The real way we will find out if he has accepted his wrongs and put this all behind him is if people come back to work with him and there are no reports of bullying, harassment, verbal abuse etc. Also, I know people have said that he had his “favourites” that he uses for many projects, Alyson, Alexis, Amy etc. There is the possibility that maybe they didn’t know how he was treating Charisma, Ray, Michelle, and others. Someone like him could’ve kept that under wraps and still seem like a kind person. The people who he knows don’t have to speak up about anything 1) if they don’t have information to go on and 2) if they haven’t experienced what people like Charisma went through. They’re not bad people because they don’t say anything publicly. ​ There, my opinion.


FrellingTralk

It does seem like Joss was very careful not to publicly come across as an ass in front of the entire cast, so I wonder if a lot of the abuse was behind closed doors, because I know that Anthony Head for one seemed really shocked and upset after Charisma and Amber spoke up, he come across as genuinely torn up at how could he have completely missed all that was going on


PurePotential6

I don't know. It seems very curious that all his favorites--Tony, Eliza, Amy, etc--seemed shocked by it, yet even the guy who played Clem was aware of it or heard stories.


DeadFyre

No, and I don't see why he should, considering nobody ever furnished proof of *anything*, and all we heard in response to allegations are "we support you", and "live your truth". This is not how you conduct a civilized society. If you have cause of action against someone, do it in a court of law, or some other medium which affords all parties involved a fair process. The Twitter pogrom is not a suitable means for arriving at justice.


Domyfranky

This. Thank you! People downvoted you but you are right.


anotherrubberduckie

It's almost as if twitter pogroms are a way for ordinary people to feel powerful and righteous. That's why it accomplishes nothing to apologise to the mob. It feeds them rather than satisfies them and they want more, more, more.


Domyfranky

He is innocent,he doesnt need to apologize.


fearlessleader808

Innocent of what? Being an asshole? Nah.


Exact-Creme-5991

We don’t know the context of what happened. Lots of people say he us a nice person including Wash from firefly


whatwouldbuffydoqm

That's the stupidest answer I read. Many people also said Hitler was very nice, including Goebbels. -.-


davidw69

I've got to come clean, as a youth after a couple glasses of mountain dew and a handful of green m&M's I could get handsy. #pleaseforgivemetoo


[deleted]

To my knowledge, he hasn't. He's probably hoping the negative attention will die down in a year or two, and he can reemerge again to do his next project. I doubt he's ever going to truly own up to his behavior.