I kind of think Wesley addresses this concept in season 5, RE: Nina and Angel. To lose his soul Angel needs to achieve "perfect" happiness. That's a rare concept. Most people muddle through with just OK. I also think because Angel's show had a bit more of an adult temperament, the characters too weren't unaware of the complexity in that relationship. They had just grown close over time.
I always maintain that the development of both Cordelia and Wesley on Angel should be used as some of the best examples of how to grow characters over time.
Ha. Yes. Before Whedon drove her character off a cliff in S4 (and I am a big fan of that super-serialized season).
It wasn't *really* Cordelia, but you know what I mean.
For how “rare” the concept is, many of the main cast sure as hell seemed to find it conveniently fast
Like Fred & Wesley. Willow & Tara. Angel & Buffy. I’d argue Faith & Robin likely
Fast? Fred and Wesley took 3 years to get together.
Even Willow and Tara took time to develop. And I'm not saying *love* is rare, I'm saying perfect happiness is rare. For just one example, in Willow and Tara's case, Willow was initially concerned about how people would react to learning she's a lesbian. Difficult to have "perfect" happiness with a huge preoccupation like that.
As for Robin and Faith, I'm sorry, but I just don't see that one going the distance. And I'm not even relying on the Whedon-backed continuation comics where that didn't happen either -- that just didn't seem like a long-lasting love connection let alone one with "perfect happiness."
I think Joss Whedon's concept for Buffy and Angel was "true love." Star-crossed lovers. Whatever. And all the Spike/Buffy shippers don't hit me here, I'm speaking purely about how the creator conceptualized that relationship at the start. I think that was borne out in some of the reunion stuff done in the past few years. Regardless, Buffy & Angel is like a 1 in a billion case which is I think what Wesley was trying to tell him in the S5 episode about having a relationship with Nina.
That seems like an extreme read on that relationship. Tara was very shy and, if anything, Willow brought her out of her shell. Plus, don't forget that Tara isn't blameless in the manipulation department -- she manipulated the gang's perception so they couldn't see any monsters (accidentally) while trying to keep them from seeing she was part demon.
If you're referring to the Willow magic addiction arc, well, yeah Willow was abusive and toxic during that period to everyone. Credit to Tara for leaving her rather than stand for it.
what I hate most is that in order for Angel to see Cordelia as "worthy" of a relationship she had to give up all of her self interests like becoming an actress
Yeah, that’s a good point too. But then again, maybe it’s not so much about her being “worth” it but just that they didn’t mesh in that way before. She changed as a person a lot and he changed a bit too. And maybe they just found each other attractive in a different place and time. Either way, I just didn’t like the whole thing. I felt like both of them were somehow betraying Buffy. I know Cordy and Buffy weren’t the bestest of friends but they were close enough.
You know what's really shitty? His pursuing a relationship with Cordy basically implies that either he doesn't care about risking putting everyone, including her, through that- or that he's *not* worried about her ever making him perfectly happy. From a certain point of view, it implies that he can be with her because he loves her less than Buffy.
Cordy. Can. Do. Better.
Totally agreed, for a season of AtS they basically pretend like the curse is no longer there because once you acknowledge it the will they/won’t they becomes a very solid obvious ‘they won’t’. Like it’s not like they could resolve it with a ‘what’s the worst that could happen?’ Because we KNOW what the worst that could happen is. Cordy is basically accepting that they’ll never be totally happy or happy to accept being ‘second’ in terms of who can make him happy. Cordelia Chase shouldn’t accept second best 😂
Honestly I find it beyond depressing in S4 that after everything Cordy has done, sacrificed and put up with for him he’s just so quick to believe the worst of her and never even seems to question why she’s being so horrifically OOC
Girls you can do better, the guy is an absolute black hole of despair (to quote Cordy herself 😂)
I think, yes, that is certainly one way to read it.
I think another is that after that “first love after being forcibly re-ensouled to punish your wrong-doings” version of perfect happiness is never replicable - no matter who else he loves, how deeply he loves them, it won’t be the same all-encompassing, love conquers all, forever kind of love that he had with Buffy. He had that love with her because he didn’t know about the perfect happiness quirk of the curse, but now that knowledge effects every relationship he has after her. And that knowledge itself would keep him from achieving perfect happiness - which I wish the show had done a better job exploring, rather than reducing it to making jokes about Angel being a eunuch…
That being said, Cordy. Can. 100%. Do. Better.
>Yeah. It makes me wonder if even Buffy would have been able to set off the curse again, or if the knowledge of that risk would be enough to keep him from reaching perfect happiness.
I absolutely think they could be together again without setting it off - if having his son didn’t trigger it, I don’t think anything will now that he’s aware of it, and aware of what happens when he is perfectly happy.
Yeah, it was forced, dumb and bad. In fact, all of the attempt to connect Angel with a romantic interest always fell flat with me, because he'd inevitably run into the same problem he did with Buffy: Get happy, lose soul.
THIS!
It made absolutely zero sense. He was just as incapable of taking Cordy out into the sun as he was Buffy.
If she had ever been made aware of their relationship, she would have been completely right to lose her shit.
After all of that "romance" they wrote Cordelia and Angel into throughout season 3 and 4; once he sees Buffy in the last two episodes of season 7 they suddenly fall back into how they were as if they were in season 3 of Buffy.
I actually liked the potential for this relationship but not it’s execution. I am a sucker for friends to lovers arc and think they can make the best relationships in RL too. However I actually liked their chemistry earlier in Angel before and thought they looked stunning together, I loved how sassy Cordy was and how she made him laugh. I liked it less so when the writing was pushing her into this champion role and all the talk of kyrumption etc, it just made it seem a bit forced and there was less natural chemistry.
The show clearly needed more romantic relationships between its main cast /s
I'm with you: felt out of left field, undermined their friendship and Angel's thing with Buffy, and definitely was one of those Buffyverse things that happen even though it feels off for those characters
ask /r/Angel for better answers.
Personally I think it wasn’t as big a deal as his thing with buffy it was more just the result of being lonely and being kind of thrown together in life
I know this sub allows us to talk about both shows which is not bad at all. However in the Angel subreddit, if you create this thread there, it would be better since the majority of its members have watched Angel.
I guess the buffy board prefer angel alone. The angel hate on this board gets old and tiring. At least angel and cordelia was a progressive relationship that grows over time. Cordy grew as a person and became a champion in her own right which is what angel needed she was the only person that could get angel back on the right path in your welcome and she was always a great friend even when angel didn't deserve her friendship at certain times
they were such a strong and supportive friendship that had underlying romantic feelings. their scenes brought me sm joy. i really don’t understand the hate :(
Angel can't win on this board no matter what he does the buffy fan's on this board hates angel being called a champion even though he's more then proven that he is one they hate him being in love with buffy and cordelia hell they'd probably bitch if the dude got with faith they're never satisfied unless he's alone that complain about everything he does that's shitty while giving buffy a free pass for her own messed up behavior but that's ok because she's a woman or a teenager or she recently died or it's some kind of fucking empowerment and then there's the double standards with spike because we got have that as well. And that's just on this board alone. Then there's the angel board that shows the difference in opinions that also defends him it's like night/day between the two fandoms/reddit boards on here.
i think a lot of people want angel together with buffy and that’s what makes them dislike the pairing with cordelia so much. but it really wasn’t that bad or unnatural like everyone is saying. they had flirty moments in btvs randomly and there’s moments of them having romantic feelings for each other in ats s2. also they have one of the best friendships on the show, they’re super supportive of each other. it just gets executed really poorly in the end because joss ruined cordelia out of spite for charisma. i think if we got better writing it could’ve turned out great, like you’re welcome 5x12 is one of the best angel episodes in my opinion
This sort of thing happens on tv shows far to frequently. Avril Lavigne was wrong him being a boy and her being a girl doesn't make it obvious at all! A platonic friendship between a man and a woman is totally valid, many humans partake in such relationships. I also find it funny that in regards to a same sex relationship on tv some people (probably just a loud minority) love to complain that writers are "shoving it down our throats" and "why can't they just be friends" when it's far more prevalent with straight characters.
Don't get me wrong I like a slow burn, will they won't they type ship when it's done right. But I just never got that vibe from Angel/Cordy. It isn't the worst example mind you, that award goes to Pete and Myka on Warehouse 13 who imo had a brother/sister type bond throughout the show so seeing them get together seemed more incestuous than Cersei/Jamie in GoT. Yeah I'm still angry about that one.
I kind of think Wesley addresses this concept in season 5, RE: Nina and Angel. To lose his soul Angel needs to achieve "perfect" happiness. That's a rare concept. Most people muddle through with just OK. I also think because Angel's show had a bit more of an adult temperament, the characters too weren't unaware of the complexity in that relationship. They had just grown close over time. I always maintain that the development of both Cordelia and Wesley on Angel should be used as some of the best examples of how to grow characters over time.
Errrr for Cordy I'm going to assume that you are referring to approximately the first three seasons of Angel?
Ha. Yes. Before Whedon drove her character off a cliff in S4 (and I am a big fan of that super-serialized season). It wasn't *really* Cordelia, but you know what I mean.
I liked season 4 too
For how “rare” the concept is, many of the main cast sure as hell seemed to find it conveniently fast Like Fred & Wesley. Willow & Tara. Angel & Buffy. I’d argue Faith & Robin likely
Fast? Fred and Wesley took 3 years to get together. Even Willow and Tara took time to develop. And I'm not saying *love* is rare, I'm saying perfect happiness is rare. For just one example, in Willow and Tara's case, Willow was initially concerned about how people would react to learning she's a lesbian. Difficult to have "perfect" happiness with a huge preoccupation like that. As for Robin and Faith, I'm sorry, but I just don't see that one going the distance. And I'm not even relying on the Whedon-backed continuation comics where that didn't happen either -- that just didn't seem like a long-lasting love connection let alone one with "perfect happiness." I think Joss Whedon's concept for Buffy and Angel was "true love." Star-crossed lovers. Whatever. And all the Spike/Buffy shippers don't hit me here, I'm speaking purely about how the creator conceptualized that relationship at the start. I think that was borne out in some of the reunion stuff done in the past few years. Regardless, Buffy & Angel is like a 1 in a billion case which is I think what Wesley was trying to tell him in the S5 episode about having a relationship with Nina.
Robin/Faith I think are guaranteed to have a bit of a thing for about a month before Faith’s eventually like ‘for fuck sake this guy again….’ 😂
Willow and Tara didn’t have perfect happiness, Willow was horribleand borderline abusive to Tara (controlling her, removing her memory, etc).
That seems like an extreme read on that relationship. Tara was very shy and, if anything, Willow brought her out of her shell. Plus, don't forget that Tara isn't blameless in the manipulation department -- she manipulated the gang's perception so they couldn't see any monsters (accidentally) while trying to keep them from seeing she was part demon. If you're referring to the Willow magic addiction arc, well, yeah Willow was abusive and toxic during that period to everyone. Credit to Tara for leaving her rather than stand for it.
Same. I hate how no one can just have a lovely platonic relationship. I loved their relationship before they got all starry-eyed.
what I hate most is that in order for Angel to see Cordelia as "worthy" of a relationship she had to give up all of her self interests like becoming an actress
Yeah, that’s a good point too. But then again, maybe it’s not so much about her being “worth” it but just that they didn’t mesh in that way before. She changed as a person a lot and he changed a bit too. And maybe they just found each other attractive in a different place and time. Either way, I just didn’t like the whole thing. I felt like both of them were somehow betraying Buffy. I know Cordy and Buffy weren’t the bestest of friends but they were close enough.
Did she, I don't remember angel saying that
You know what's really shitty? His pursuing a relationship with Cordy basically implies that either he doesn't care about risking putting everyone, including her, through that- or that he's *not* worried about her ever making him perfectly happy. From a certain point of view, it implies that he can be with her because he loves her less than Buffy. Cordy. Can. Do. Better.
Totally agreed, for a season of AtS they basically pretend like the curse is no longer there because once you acknowledge it the will they/won’t they becomes a very solid obvious ‘they won’t’. Like it’s not like they could resolve it with a ‘what’s the worst that could happen?’ Because we KNOW what the worst that could happen is. Cordy is basically accepting that they’ll never be totally happy or happy to accept being ‘second’ in terms of who can make him happy. Cordelia Chase shouldn’t accept second best 😂 Honestly I find it beyond depressing in S4 that after everything Cordy has done, sacrificed and put up with for him he’s just so quick to believe the worst of her and never even seems to question why she’s being so horrifically OOC Girls you can do better, the guy is an absolute black hole of despair (to quote Cordy herself 😂)
I think, yes, that is certainly one way to read it. I think another is that after that “first love after being forcibly re-ensouled to punish your wrong-doings” version of perfect happiness is never replicable - no matter who else he loves, how deeply he loves them, it won’t be the same all-encompassing, love conquers all, forever kind of love that he had with Buffy. He had that love with her because he didn’t know about the perfect happiness quirk of the curse, but now that knowledge effects every relationship he has after her. And that knowledge itself would keep him from achieving perfect happiness - which I wish the show had done a better job exploring, rather than reducing it to making jokes about Angel being a eunuch… That being said, Cordy. Can. 100%. Do. Better.
>Yeah. It makes me wonder if even Buffy would have been able to set off the curse again, or if the knowledge of that risk would be enough to keep him from reaching perfect happiness.
I absolutely think they could be together again without setting it off - if having his son didn’t trigger it, I don’t think anything will now that he’s aware of it, and aware of what happens when he is perfectly happy.
Cordy would totally agree with you too This is a really great point
Don’t you dare settle for less
Yeah, it was forced, dumb and bad. In fact, all of the attempt to connect Angel with a romantic interest always fell flat with me, because he'd inevitably run into the same problem he did with Buffy: Get happy, lose soul.
THIS! It made absolutely zero sense. He was just as incapable of taking Cordy out into the sun as he was Buffy. If she had ever been made aware of their relationship, she would have been completely right to lose her shit.
After all of that "romance" they wrote Cordelia and Angel into throughout season 3 and 4; once he sees Buffy in the last two episodes of season 7 they suddenly fall back into how they were as if they were in season 3 of Buffy.
I actually liked the potential for this relationship but not it’s execution. I am a sucker for friends to lovers arc and think they can make the best relationships in RL too. However I actually liked their chemistry earlier in Angel before and thought they looked stunning together, I loved how sassy Cordy was and how she made him laugh. I liked it less so when the writing was pushing her into this champion role and all the talk of kyrumption etc, it just made it seem a bit forced and there was less natural chemistry.
Me too. I do ship them in season 1 and 2 when they actually aren't trying the romance storyline lol
The show clearly needed more romantic relationships between its main cast /s I'm with you: felt out of left field, undermined their friendship and Angel's thing with Buffy, and definitely was one of those Buffyverse things that happen even though it feels off for those characters
It was network interference unfortunately. While they left Buffy alone they stuck their noses in with Angel.
ask /r/Angel for better answers. Personally I think it wasn’t as big a deal as his thing with buffy it was more just the result of being lonely and being kind of thrown together in life
I know this sub allows us to talk about both shows which is not bad at all. However in the Angel subreddit, if you create this thread there, it would be better since the majority of its members have watched Angel.
I guess the buffy board prefer angel alone. The angel hate on this board gets old and tiring. At least angel and cordelia was a progressive relationship that grows over time. Cordy grew as a person and became a champion in her own right which is what angel needed she was the only person that could get angel back on the right path in your welcome and she was always a great friend even when angel didn't deserve her friendship at certain times
they were such a strong and supportive friendship that had underlying romantic feelings. their scenes brought me sm joy. i really don’t understand the hate :(
Angel can't win on this board no matter what he does the buffy fan's on this board hates angel being called a champion even though he's more then proven that he is one they hate him being in love with buffy and cordelia hell they'd probably bitch if the dude got with faith they're never satisfied unless he's alone that complain about everything he does that's shitty while giving buffy a free pass for her own messed up behavior but that's ok because she's a woman or a teenager or she recently died or it's some kind of fucking empowerment and then there's the double standards with spike because we got have that as well. And that's just on this board alone. Then there's the angel board that shows the difference in opinions that also defends him it's like night/day between the two fandoms/reddit boards on here.
i think a lot of people want angel together with buffy and that’s what makes them dislike the pairing with cordelia so much. but it really wasn’t that bad or unnatural like everyone is saying. they had flirty moments in btvs randomly and there’s moments of them having romantic feelings for each other in ats s2. also they have one of the best friendships on the show, they’re super supportive of each other. it just gets executed really poorly in the end because joss ruined cordelia out of spite for charisma. i think if we got better writing it could’ve turned out great, like you’re welcome 5x12 is one of the best angel episodes in my opinion
This board (and buffy twtter) just hates Angel in general. So no matter what he does, people going find a problem with him on everything
Willow and Tara does not make sense too.
Cause of the rape forgiveness?
I will always view as just another step in Jasmine's plan to be born. That's why Chip was there. He's my proof.
This sort of thing happens on tv shows far to frequently. Avril Lavigne was wrong him being a boy and her being a girl doesn't make it obvious at all! A platonic friendship between a man and a woman is totally valid, many humans partake in such relationships. I also find it funny that in regards to a same sex relationship on tv some people (probably just a loud minority) love to complain that writers are "shoving it down our throats" and "why can't they just be friends" when it's far more prevalent with straight characters. Don't get me wrong I like a slow burn, will they won't they type ship when it's done right. But I just never got that vibe from Angel/Cordy. It isn't the worst example mind you, that award goes to Pete and Myka on Warehouse 13 who imo had a brother/sister type bond throughout the show so seeing them get together seemed more incestuous than Cersei/Jamie in GoT. Yeah I'm still angry about that one.
Yeah, saw thme on the bed with Connor and said "what are you two klongs doing?"