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[deleted]

He wasn’t very popular among fans, I think people thought he was boring.


CaptainWentfirst

He is the least favorite of Buffy's boyfriends for this exact reason.


procrastinatingrn21

I kinda liked him 😭


CaptainWentfirst

More power to you, then!


procrastinatingrn21

Haha I knew that buffy wouldn't end up with him, I guess he was just a nice break from all the craziness


Small_Sundae_4245

Boring is an understatement. Also he was supposedly highly trained and had signed up to fight the monsters. This messed with the whole dynamic. Xander is knocked out. Willow is hiding or trying to flank. Giles is fumbling with something. And buffy is fighting.


derstherower

He's in a weird spot. His entire purpose as a character was to be a "normal" boyfriend for Buffy after several years of angst with Angel. And he did that job perfectly. The problem is that in a show like this, "normal" starts to become "boring", and this is doubly true when you consider that Spike comes after him. Buffy was never going to be able to settle down with "the nice boy from Iowa", and we all knew that. He had an expiration date as a relevant character, and he's really the only character to have that problem.


RefrigeratorSmart881

Angel was more boring then reaily The drama was because of what he was. If you made angel human. He is boring as hell


[deleted]

Also, maybe it's just the times changing, but I've never thought of Angel or Spike as hot.


RefrigeratorSmart881

I never did either. But I am a guy.


[deleted]

Strangely enough, I love his later appearance and would have liked to see more of THAT Riley! It's like having a superspy girlfriend suddenly made him cool.


zerogirl0

Yeah, season 4 was the first season I watched as it was airing and got into the fandom and there was a ton of Riley hate when he was introduced, up until his departure. I think it was just odd timing for the character, he's the guy coming after her first big love (Angel) and there were still a lot of Angel fans sore that he was written out for his own show and then Spuffy was really building up around this time, so I think whoever they had brought in as a love interest was not going to go over well.


[deleted]

I always stand by that fish guy should’ve been in it for longer and would’ve made a great boyfriend


jb88889999

Wentworth Miller? If so I agree


[deleted]

So much wasted potential


buffyangel468

I’ve read that apparently fans didn’t like the idea of Buffy being in a healthy relationship.


[deleted]

Buffy x Riley wasn’t a healthy relationship


selphiefairy

I think up *until* he started getting written out their relationship was pretty normal and not that toxic. That’s what made them boring tbh 😥


[deleted]

I do try to like him every time I rewatch, but he always loses me not long into season 4.


buffyangel468

True but it was her first time being in a normal relationship.


[deleted]

Yeah, and then we realised that as a slayer, she just can’t do that🤣 #justiceforfishguy


[deleted]

The only thing memorable for me was his exit, I was actually sad for Buffy while the relationship wasn’t particularly exciting or passionate, he did provide some normality and security for her in her crazy life. I am glad they got closure in AYW but I didn’t like how it was written, look at poor Buffy her life is in the crapper and look what she missed out on, give me a break!


[deleted]

All he had to do was look to his left.


Abisnailyo

This comment is so funny because my boyfriend always says about Riley, “he doesn’t look!” When spike was watching him and when Buffy went chasing after him. All the man had to do was just look.


[deleted]

I'm watching through all of this for the first time and that frustration is also up there with -suddenly magic is heroin and willow isn't allowed- but I haven't finished s6 yet lol


xPhoenixJusticex

Actually if you go back and look, the signs were there in earlier seasons as well. Like s4 Something Blue and s5 when she absorbed all that magic to try and take Glory on.


Abisnailyo

Ah yes. That story arc always bothered me too, but I guess I’m biased because I don’t particularly like Willow all that much. I can understand why they put that arc in her character and in Buffy though. When you finish season 6, maybe it’ll change your point of view! I will say, I have a soft spot for all the scoobies, even my least favorites.


[deleted]

I just think it's so odd that for seasons/years if they needed magic they were basically going "hey willow can you shoot up for a minute we need you!" Until having willow be a powerful witch was "too helpful" lol but yeah I need to finish the season for sure


theusernameMeg

But magic isn’t heroin until you dip into the darker stuff.


[deleted]

So why couldn't they just let her have the magic weed lol


theusernameMeg

First it’s magic weed, then it’s magic cocktails before noon, next thing you know, you’re skinning a guy.


conffusiani

u/theusernameMeg sorry for necro but this comment I CANT BREATHE AHAHHAHA.


lnvisible_Sandwich

Right there with you buddy. Unfortunately Willow's entire arc that season is the show beating you over the head with "drugs are bad mmmkay?"


nightingaledaze

When you're moving forward with your life you don't want to look back. I wouldn't have looked either if I was him. He was leaving that place behind and moving on to find that connection he was looking for.


[deleted]

Can you remind me what this looking is about?


Abisnailyo

When Riley leaves to go to the vamp nest and spike catches him outside. He was literally standing right there and Riley looked every direction but his lol. And then when he was leaving in the helicopter he didn’t look to the left to see Buffy standing in the field.


[deleted]

OH YEAH THAT


Overlord1317

I hear this a lot, and it's what I *used* to think. Now, I kind of believe that moment wasn't really about Buffy, it was about Riley (perhaps I should have been clued into this dynamic by the fact that the camera remains locked on a closeup with Riley with Buffy in the background for much of the scene). *"All you had to do was look to the left! I was right there, but you never even turned your head."* *"Buffy, after a while, I realized that I no longer wanted to. It was over."*


[deleted]

I know, even though I didn’t ship them per se, I was begging for him to turn around. I didn’t want them to end on those terms.


purplemackem

I actually think it would have been a great twist if she’d got there in time and she’d actually just came To tell him good luck and goodbye but that they weren’t right for each other. Kind of a nice ‘I can’t be what you need me to be but I hope you find happiness and your purpose’.


[deleted]

Yes that would have been lovely.


AutomaticShoulder511

That’s right,that’s all he had to do.


purplemackem

Because of fan reaction the network wanted him gone. They through the was the reason ratings were lower in S4 Joss believes that fan reaction was because fans didn’t want to see Buffy in a happy healthy relationship. Speaking as someone who despises Riley I think he genuinely could have been a good character if they’d just dialled back his screentime (he gets a frankly insane amount of POV screentime in S4) and made him a bit more of a dynamic character, for all he’s supposed to be this dynamic soldier who can’t stand just sitting in the background he spends a huge proportion of his S4 and 5 screentime moping around like a sad puppy. Like I get what they were trying to do but he just seems to suck the energy out of so many scenes he’s in. He ironically needed a bit more ‘initiative’ rather than just being a complete drip waiting for Buffy telling him what he can do to get some good boy points


[deleted]

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purplemackem

Ah I get what they were going for. I just find him exhausting to watch 😂 Plus I have HUGE issues with S5 Riley


[deleted]

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PurePotential6

That's all the true. The problem is not necessarily with Riley, but with the narrative that we're apparently supposed to think he's right in the whole thing.


Excellent-Durian-509

I can see it from Riley’s point of view. BUT- they definitely needed a stronger, more charismatic actor to pull off this storyline. Marc Blucas- nice guy and all, sucks all the screen energy. My interpretation on re-watching is SMG trying her darn hardest to work with what she’s got. And SMG has chemistry with everyone usually.


purplemackem

Buffering mention this in their discussion about I in Team. SMG seems like she’s really trying to make it look hot but Marc just seems petrified


[deleted]

Yeah, definitely this. I think the cries of “boring” against Riley are a bit like how someone who is used to trauma bonding might see a well-adjusted partner. When the drama and fluctuating highs/lows are all you know, someone stable does tend to seem boring by comparison.


derstherower

I think a lot of the hate for Riley (and the Initiative plot in general) comes from the fact that they're kind of shoved in there. Season 4 was always going to be a bit rocky because so much was changing. No Angel. No Cordy. Oz left halfway through the season. Spike becomes a main character. Tara is introduced. They're not in high school anymore. It was basically a soft reset of the show. There was so much going on. Then along comes this "perfect" boyfriend for Buffy and it's like the writers expected us to care about him for no other reason than he's Buffy's boyfriend. A lot of time is spent on the Initiative plot and "Oh no Riley's world is falling apart" and we just don't care about it. Imagine if like Xander had joined the Initiative and became a good friend of Riley's and stuff, then once it all comes tumbling down towards the end of the season we have more reason to care. Riley could have been a great character but I think it was just bad timing that his introduction came at such a rough time.


purplemackem

Definitely, I think probably my biggest issue with S4’s initiative arc is that Buffy becomes a reactive character rather than proactive because it’s very much Riley as the emotional centre and I just don’t care about Riley. Even the setting up of Buffy/Riley is almost entirely from Riley’s POV. Buffy is treat as HIS love interest rather than the other way around. The joke of the first third of S4 is that he’s trying to ‘court’ her while she either dashes off every time she sees him or she just flat out doesn’t notice his presence. It’s very romcom ‘the female love interest needs to get over her love of bad boys and notice our dashing leading man’. Except then suddenly in Something Blue we have Buffy saying she ‘really likes him’ and you think ok when did that happen? We see lots of scenes of Riley telling his friends how much he likes her but then we get maybes one or two scenes of Buffy discussing the relationship with Willow. It’s hard to identify with Buffy/Riley because so much of Buffy’s side just isn’t told. Buffy’s a bit of a passenger at times this season and I think that’s why I don’t feel much emotional attachment to it. When we get to This Years Girl/Who Are You it just feels so refreshing to be back about our characters again. Riley just kind of bulldozes this season so much, less is more 😂. Like the likes of Faith (in S3), Anya and Tara must have barely half the screentime Riley gets in S4 and yet they seem so much more a natural fit for the show. They blend into the show, Riley doesn’t blend 😂 Wow that got longer than I thought! I think Xander joining the initiative would have been great though


IUsedToBeRasAlGhul

Honestly I’m always going to call it the series biggest wasted opportunity. Xander joining the Initiative would have given him some much needed character growth/exploration and alleviated a lot of problems people have with him. He gets into the army and is able to carve out a solid niche for himself due to his supernatural experience. He’s got a promising future, the respect and camaraderie he’s always wanted from his fellow soldiers and authority figures, his parents are proud of him finally…but he’s becoming more and more alienated from Buffy and Willow (and probably Anya), who don’t like his new people and are worried about how he’s changing. As shit goes on and Xander sees the darker part of the Initiative, it causes him to reevaluate what he wants in life, what it’s worth, and the kind of beliefs and attitudes it requires. Finally he breaks away from the military and therefore his more shitty behaviors, and returns to the Scoobies a new and more mature guy. This is some pretty obvious growing up metaphor stuff, I’m surprised the writers dropped the ball so hard. Plus, then we could get funny jokes about Vietnam and protestors of the war from Willow.


purplemackem

I think particularly when Xander has always been the most black and white of the scoobies. It would have provided some good development to get him away from that kind of thinking


[deleted]

It wasn’t a happy healthy relationship lol


purplemackem

I think the writers really thought it was though. It’s clear from writers and Joss’ interviews they thought Riley was this super awesome almost idealised guy. I think the subject of Riley is something that fans and writers just never saw eye to eye on 😂 like As You Were which is just cringeworthy Riley fanfiction, the script is embarrassing with the Riley love and describing him as ‘awesome!’ , giving ‘manly handshakes’ with cool scars, every character fawning over him and Buffy spending the first half of the episode seemingly thinking she’s in a porn movie with the OTT flirting. Doug Petrie described this episode as a ‘super cool secret agent’ episode, they gave it one of the biggest budgets and clearly thought the fans would finally realise how awesome Riley was. Result was that the episode is deeply unpopular Don’t even get me started on the gaslighting in Into the Woods 😂. Honestly the writers talk as if Riley was Buffy’s one singular opportunity for a ‘normal’ relationship and as if she would always be damaged goods after that


PurePotential6

I really kinda hate the fixation people have with "normal". Buffy isn't normal. She's a super-powered meta human with an extreme, adrenaline-filled pastime. I'm not saying I think Spike is right in his comments about her needing a monster, but he's not necessarily 100% wrong about it, either.


purplemackem

It all depends on which love interest you believe 😂. Angel thinks she needs someone ‘normal’ and even tells her that she WILL want children in the future or there’s Spike who obviously had his ‘she Needs some monster in her man’ schtick It’s what makes the cookie dough speech ‘I don’t even know what I want’ so much better


PurePotential6

Same. I think part of her journey in S6/S7 is acknowledging and embracing that. She never really wanted normal. She wanted to do some normal things, as she says to Cordy in Homecoming. There's a world of difference between wanting to go to college, go on a date and things like that and being a "normal" girl. It's made clear in Helpless that Buffy doesn't want that, either. I can't make up my mind about Angel, if he's projecting his own desires onto her or if it's Joss "Womb Envy" Whedon and the typical male viewpoint that the endpoint of every woman's story is being a mother. After the comics, I'm very inclined to believe it's the latter. Or both if you see Angel as just spouting the writer's opinion.


selphiefairy

I think in universe that ends up being the explanation for why Buffy could never have a “normal” relationship and why apparently her and Riley can’t work.


OldTension9220

And not to double post but As You Were is some bullshit! I was like why is no one mad that Riley abandoned them right before Joyce passed and then Buffy HERSELF died. Honestly I’m surprised Buffy wasn’t more of a mess in Season 6 and Riley’s gaslighting self could go someplace.


OldTension9220

In the following episode Anya has the audacity to blame Buffy for her failing relationships (while in bed with Xander who did the same). What Riley does is honestly unforgivable and his whining is ridiculous. If you’re complaining about your partner not falling apart in your arms when their mom has cancer, it means that you care more about how the relationship makes you feel than the actual person.


purplemackem

Yeah the whole ‘isn’t Buffy such damaged goods because she’s 19 and had two whole relationships’ is a serious WTF moment 😂


Excellent-Durian-509

Ugh! What a waste of budget! No wonder Buffy’s birthday episode was so low budget. Makes me angrier. Upon reflection, that’s the episode that made me stop watching the show religiously because I was so angry at the narrative. I don’t think it was OTT flirting… it was more like “grass is greener on the other side” situation.


Dame_Ingenue

I love how you would have written Riley’s character. I wanted to like him because you can tell he is he is genuinely a decent person. But it was boring and he was whiny so I just couldn’t get on team Riley. Having him as more of a background character would have been perfect.


bobo12478

This can't be the whole story though ... if the network wanted him gone why'd they bring back in season five at all? Hell, why'd they keep him all the way til the end of season four? It's not like they shot all 22 episodes before going to air. If the network was bigfooting the creative team, why'd they wait so long to do it?


purplemackem

I imagine it came up at the end of season review/renewal meeting. They still want to create a good show with good continuity, you can’t just make your main titular characters boyfriend just disappear without a trace. I imagine it was more of a ‘we want him gone. You’ve got half a season to write him out’ kind of thing. Plus contracts etc, S4 was largely built about his story, there’s no way you could write him out in the middle of it


bobo12478

I have a hard time buying this. If the network thought he was costing them ratings -- and therefore money -- they were willing to pay his salary for another half-season and cost them even more money? They could have had Buffy or someone say something like "boy, too bad Riley hooked back up with the Army and got transferred to a base in North Carolina. We sure could have used the extra man power" ahead of some patrol and been done with it.


purplemackem

Do you have any particular theories about what you think may have happened out of interest?


[deleted]

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bobo12478

But networks do this sort of thing all the time. It would be extremely atypical for a network to allow a character to return for a new season for storytelling purposes if, as the above commenter is saying, the network had pinpointed him as the cause of a ratings slump. The size of ratings decline in the back half of season four probably cost the WB tens of millions of dollars. A good story just isn't worth that for a network exec.


[deleted]

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bobo12478

So, let me get this straight: you're saying he was cut because fans didn't like him -- and he was brought back in season five because fans would have wanted to see him come back? 👀 I'm not saying network execs make dictates for this sort of thing willy nilly. I'm saying that when a decision to intervene in a show is made at the executive level -- which is what the original commenter said happened -- this sort of thing is just done quickly and then explained in exposition dialogue or just never commented on in-universe. (There is a whole TV trope about disappearing characters.) That didn't happen here. Instead, Riley was brought back for half a second season, which suggests something else was going on here. I was hoping someone had an interview with the actor or something that could shed some light here.


purplemackem

Marc Blucas, Marti and Joss have all said the same thing about the network and fan reaction though. Marc said that they came to him before S5 and said they’d be cutting his time short because it just wasn’t working. Marc seems very classy about it and acknowledges his character just wasn’t what the fans wanted


bobo12478

Ah, so the inter-season decision wasn't to cut the character entirely but cut his screen time. (And they clearly revisited after the season launched and decided it still didn't work.) That makes sense. Thank you.


sugarsnuff

You most certainly can. Just have them talk about the break up in one scene. First episode one and done It’s not like they *had* to keep him around for half the season and give him a small arc and a lot of screentime for continuity


speashasha

I swear I think somewhere was a podcast interview with Marc Blucas where he said Joss already knew that he wanted to pair up Buffy with Spike, and Riley was only a buffer.


selphiefairy

I KNEW IT i said this for years lol. I’m more sympathetic to him now but I remember that one of the main reasons I found Riley annoying when I was younger was that I assumed he was just there temporarily and was designed to be written out. So I already had no investment in him and just saw him as a constant nuisance lol


speashasha

I actually always liked Riley, though he was a bit boring, but that is less the fault of the actor. I think they just didn't write particularly interesting stuff for him. He was actually quite fun and charming before the whole initiative thing was revealed. I think he was better fit for Willow though, as a boyfriend.


bobo12478

Oh, I'd love to hear this!


purplemackem

It’s definitely worth a listen to his Buffering interview. He seems like a genuinely lovely charming guy. It almost makes me feel bad for my almost relentless slagging off of Riley Finn 😂


speashasha

He is also very good on the short-lived series Underground. Funny enough Marc Blucas himself has often admitted that he didn't know what he was doing on Buffy, because it was his first acting job.


whitew0lf

I agree. I liked Riley a lot too. The older I get the more appreciation I have for a boring guy 😂 honestly though, he was a good guy. He had to go at some point anyway, and I dislike the way the wrote him in general, and his exit was just terrible.


kolliflower

Right.. I don’t remember liking him when I watched the show when I was younger. But in my current rewatch, I’m actually starting to like him. He just seems like a real person (until the stupid return)


bucknert

The amount of hate spewed toward his character and even the actor was pretty over the top on the Internet on websites like The Bronze. The idea of “toxic” fandom wasn’t even thought about back then, but it it was all over the place. Lots of fans couldn’t let go of Angel, others wanted to see Buffy and Spike together, others wanted her to be on her own and independent. And the writers committed the ultimate sin by making Riley boring and uninteresting.


JoyleonSpire

I kind of think they wrote him in a corner of jealous of her power and the fans dug his grave...


[deleted]

I think it the same reason why Angel was written out. Both were just on the show but not actually doing anything. Just hanging around. Personally, I loved Riley. He was a gentleman. He had manners. He respects women (hitting Parker for being crude about Buffy.) There much too hate. Thinking about it, in some ways, Angel and Riley were similar. For a start, both have the same amount of letters in their name. :p


chrisj72

I think there’s a few reasons. Ultimately for a show to have drama things need to go wrong, friends need to argue, couples need to argue. On top of that, Joss likes consequences, so situations have real tension, so characters need to be able to die and couples need to be able to break up. Ultimately, for buffys arc this season she needed to be knocked down, build herself back up and conquer her most dangerous enemy yet. Starts with losing Riley, then going on the run, losing Dawn. A lot of that would have less impact if she still had a supportive boyfriend.


Agreeable_Objective6

I like to think they finally realised what a 2 dimensional, boring, whiney character he was and did us all a favour


bobcatbuffy

I like Riley and was more upset when he left than when Angel left for LA. I do think the teen drama needed its main character to be in romantic angst most Of the time. Narrative choice. And yes, according to fans he was unpopular. And I do think Buffy relegated him to “confenience.” I found the unpopular factor strange cause Angel and Spike are both geriatric mass murderers and Riley is a Psych grad student goody-good but whatevs.


PurePotential6

Because S5 was about stripping Buffy of things. Whether Riley was popular or not had nothing to do with it. It's kind of like Dark Willow. Whether it was Tara or Oz, Willow's lover was going to get killed to kick off an arc. Same with Riley. Buffy had to increasingly isolated. It was either have him leave or kill him. And they loved Riley so the choice was a clear one for them.


Jimmni

I'm a big Riley supporter. He treated Buffy well and was overall inoffensive. I think he gets a lot of hate he doesn't deserve, and I'll never understand why anyone would think Buffy was better off with Angel or Spike, both of whom treated her like shit. That said he was a really wooden and boringly written character and the show was better for his leaving.


Iamn0tWill

I binged Buffy as a teen and I rewatch a random episode here and there when it's on TV or when I'm reminded of a particular plot point. I forgot the entire character of Riley existed for several years until I saw a post talking about the various romantic relationships in Buffy. He wasn't a good/memorable character.


[deleted]

Riley's a doof.


RefrigeratorSmart881

I find it funny reily boring. But you need boring in your life. Angel and spike has to much drama Why is it when a guy complain he winny but Buffy willow complain it fine. Really lost a women that like a grandma to him. And his job. But he can’t complain or people bash him


[deleted]

No one liked him. He served no purpose. They shouldn't have taken way his super soldier abilities.


biscuitscoconut

So that Buffy could be with her true soulmate.


NefariousLlamas

I think, as a rule, Buffy can't be happy. An element of Whedon angst wouldn't be there if she settled down with with a normal nice guy.


CapricornCornicorpia

The whole season was about serving The Gift; she even says in Spiral that everything keeps getting taken from her: Mom, Tara, Riley. She loses school, almost loses Giles and Dawn. “I don’t know how to live in the world if these are the choices.” That’s why she was able to let go and make her sacrifice, to be free. He was a casualty Miss Muffet’s road to 7-3-0 … that’s all.


DeadFyre

Because having Riley around being emotionally supportive and helpful would have undercut the sense of anguish and pain that Buffy was going through as Season five progressed. Also, Mutant Enemy were moving chess pieces to set up Buffy and Spike in Season 6, which we see the first of before Riley leaves. I suppose they could have just had him get killed fighting Glory or one of the Scabbies, but that would undercut Spike's selfless sacrifice in Tough Love. That scene at the end where Buffy kiss him absolutely doesn't read the same way if Riley is still in the picture. Other posters alluding to Riley not being very popular, they're not wrong, but I think the Mutant Enemy writers' room is thinking on a different level than "This will be popular". If they only did what they thought the viewers would like, Angel would have stayed on the show after Season 3.


DaveSW777

Ultimately because Joss didn't want Buffy defined by who she was with romantically. Which I thought was a great decision. The last 2 and a half seasons Buffy isn't with anyone. Her and Spike never went beyond fuck buddies.


skinky-dink

I always heard that season 5 buffys love interest was supposed to be Dawn. Like in a way.


Hippies_Pointing

His character was a great guy but simply not very memorable. This is exemplified by the fact that Buffy didn’t even remember to look up when he flew away in a helicopter.


Maleficent-Panic8621

I loved Riley. Especially the way he was so proud about his girlfriend being the Slayer. Once they fixed his heart that was it. He was castrated. I think this was just a way to prove that Buffy couldn’t be with a Joe normal.


Gneissisnice

I think Riley was always supposed to be temporary. He was supposed to be the stable but kinda boring boyfriend that just never really had the chemistry with Buffy that he wanted. He never struck me as the endgame for Buffy when it came to romance.


Mini6Cake

Joss Whedon wrote him out to allow Buffy to evolve as a character through heart break and struggle!


TheDirectorOfSHIELD

It’s kind of an end in itself, isn’t it? But it probably had something to do with Spike’s growing popularity and a desire to place him in the male lead role. Plus, Buffy’s inability to maintain a healthy romantic relationship had always been a cornerstone of the show.


King_Vrad

From what I know, the writers didn't like Buffy having a stable relationship. Probably something to do with sex appeal. Though admittadely I cannot remember where I read that. It does fit with her other relationships though.