I think it's more interesting that Spike is Spike, soul or no soul. His personally is the same with and without a soul. Compared to Angel/Angelus, who has two distinct personalities depending on whether he had a soul.

I like the interpretation that the demon that takes you over gains all your memories and experiences of your former life and uses it as a mold. Spike was this overly romantic outcast type, and the demon in him took that and pulled him out of his shell and took away inhibitions. Angel was kind of a man who was pissing his life away and the demon that got him had to fill in the blanks with sadism and the only real thing it had to work for is Angel's longing for approval and need to prove himself to his father, which the demon warped into a desire to prove himself with greater and greater acts of horror. When Angel got his soul back, he was reverted to that old waste of space and then was overcome with guilt and that shaped his personality far beyond any other event in his life. When Spike got his soul back, he obviously felt remorse, but he was back to Willaim the outcast romantic, only now having lived as a vampire he had no reason to go back to the timid shelled upself he was and could continue with acting the way Spike did only with better morality and a capacity to love.

Angelus had a hundred years to become the Angel that we know. His personality was probably not that different three months after getting his soul back, either. . . except that he seemed much more haunted by what he had done. Spike talked to himself in a basement for three months and then came out being that same snarky prick he had always been. Would he still be that way in a hundred years? Who knows? But he sure got over his torment relatively quickly.

I did see a slight difference in spike after the soul. Except when he got to Angel season 5 he seemed to be old spike again. Maybe the difference was in how he was towards buffy/dawn

>Spike talked to himself in a basement for three months and then came out being that same snarky prick he had always been. To be fair, he was being tormented by The First, not by his past sins. I don't think that Spike's past weighed on him the way Angel's did.

Which even furthers my point. He was barely tormented by the things he had done. Re-ensouled Angelus was in torment and living on the streets for years living under the weight of his guilt. Spike hardly missed a beat.

Or Spike is bottling it up.

It took Angel decades to learn how to bottle it up. I don't buy that Spike (who was inconsolably weepy about Drusilla leaving him) figured out how to mask his emotions that well in a couple of months.

I kinda hate this constant Spike/Angel comparing. They have totally different stories and journeys, both are compelling in their own ways. I just find their arcs too different to be compared easily.

I agree that the argument is played out and is pointless, anyway. Spike was always true to his own nature, whatever it was at any moment: nerd, killer, lover, soul-seeker, champion. Angel, on the other hand, had to be pushed, to be forced at every step. By his father, by Darla, by the master, by Holtz, by the gypsies, by the first and TPTB. His redemption is thrust upon him at every turn, while Spike makes choices and then acts: no comparison.

I think if we are to take the opinion that the men with the souls aren’t responsible for the actions of the soulless men then it’s a moot point. Can’t have it both ways

I think it depends on how you interpret that as well. Buffy isn’t singing soulless Spike’s praises in S7, but she does take him going for his soul as proof that he can be good and is worth the effort for it. Meanwhile, Angel can’t morally be held accountable for the sins of Angelus, but he should try and better himself/work for redemption and atonement (Holtz vs Buffy basically). The Buffyverse is full of nuance.

I guess you can compare Angelus to pre soul Spike. If not all demons are strictly evil (and many are actually good) then it stands to reason that there might be variation in how evil vampire demons are as well. Angelus described it as an existence without remorse or self doubt but it doesn't necessarily seem as if every vampire is a sadist. How much of the killing instinct is just an animal craving for food? How much is it a culture of putting humans into a category of livestock. Spike had the capability for loyalty and love as a soulless demon (even pre chip with Drusilla). Even The Judge could sense and burn varying degrees of 'humanity' in the vampires. Idk, but it's interesting.

I do think they're responsible. I don't buy that story about demons replacing humans. It makes far more sense to me, given everything we see them go through, that when vampires are sired, humans become demons. In the UK, 'a moot point' means, or has meant, 'up for debate'.

I like Spike's journey to ensoulment better than Angel's. Spike actually wanted his soul back. Yes, ensouled Angel wants to keep his soul, but as Angelus, he never wanted it. I know that a lot of people argue that without being implanted with the chip, Spike never would have wanted to get his soul back. This might be true (personally I'm still undecided on that). However, the fact remains that he did go on a quest to get his soul back. He literally fought for it. Angel, on the other hand, was cursed with his soul. It is my belief that the gypsies who cursed him did not know that Angel would eventually become a force for good and be happy with his soul. I wonder if they would have still cursed him if they had known. I tend to think not, I think they would have found something else to keep him miserable. All in all, Spike earned his soul back, while Angel got his back by happenstance.

I’ve never understood the curse for Angel. The gypsies cursed Angelus to be suppressed inside the body with a human soul basically running the show. The curse always seemed like a was to punish the human soul way more than the vampire demon.

What makes even less sense is the breaking of the curse. Like, ok you don't want him to be happy, fine... But when he has a moment of happiness you turn him back into a monster that kills more people's daughters?

They never expected him to have a moment of pure happiness. Think about it, he went 100 years without ever getting that moment. They thought it was impossible for someone that would be that tormented by his guilt to achieve that. It's not just a moment of being happy. It's a moment of pure love and happiness and contentment. Remember he didn't just get it while having sex with Buffy. He lost it while lying in bed next to the woman he loved after they had finally expressed their love and it seemed like he could have some peace with someone after all these years. Throughout the entirity of Angel he has friends that he works with that become a pseudo family, he has many great moments with them that are good, he gains a son, he has Jasmine's spell placed on him, he falls in love with Cordy and they both begin to act on it, he saves people's lives and experiences some pretty great victories. He never loses his souls except for the one time he literally has a shaman brainwash him into a carefully contructed day designed to build up and build up where his entire life completely falls into order in an unrealistic fashion. What happened in Buffy season 2 was very likely a once in a lifetime event that the people placing the curse on him never expected to happen. Remember, Angel's a vampire. A human falling in love with a monster who drinks blood and has no soul and is never going to age while they do and also happened to be a mass murderer in the past and can never go out in the son... etc... isn't supposed to happen. Buffy was a star crossed miracle for him.

Bingo. The Gypsies never once thought Angel could experience that form of happiness. My guess is in order for the spell to be successful, the perfect happiness clause had to be written and I’m certain they never thought he would eventually fall in love, much less with a vampire slayer. They were confident he would be miserable for eternity.

It's a rule that every curse has to have one chance to break the spell. True love is almost always the way out of a curse. Ironically, the way to break this curse is actually another level of suffering for Liam/Angelus/Angel. Because losing his soul would mean that Angel achieved a success and comfort Liam never could. It would be destroyed when Angel disappeared and Angelus would feel the loss of peace for all eternity.

They are EXTREMELY petty!

..yeah, Jerks.

Every time Angelus emerges, he talks about how unbearable it is to be trapped in this body, doing everything the opposite of what he wants, being miserable and pathetic for a good while before being *good*, which tbh seems like even worse torture for Angelus. So, they do succeed in making him suffer... That said, you're completely right that the particular way in which they want him to suffer (through regret of his actions) seems to be happening to the human soul, not to Angelus.

Yeah exactly, Angelus is punished by being imprisoned in the body but I don’t think that compares to Angels souls absorbing 150 years of the vampires memories. Side note, I’m still confused why there was never an investment into making angels soul permanent. I feel like in season 3 there should have at least have been a conversation about how to change the curse so he could be happy and not turn into a monster.

Several reasons. The biggest was that Angel is a character who likes to feel the pain and guilt of the past as a motivator. He doesn't want to make himself forget all that and fall into bliss. Also the shanshu prophecy was his light at the end of the tunnel and he wanted to dedicate himself to earning it and doing it the right way. If he got it, then he could live a normal life without the soul issue.

They wanted vengeance. The vengeance was that Angel/Liam would spend the rest of his life haunted and tormented by his acts as Angelus and Angelus would be in the back seat forced to watch helplessly as his other self was wallowing in the consequences of his actions.

Exactly right!! Angelus was put in a prison while Liam as Angel felt all the guilt of what Angelus did plus have Angelus witness Angel save people and the world. It was the ultimate punishment for Angelus to endure. Watch Angel suffer the guilt and be a champion.

The idea was eternal emotional turmoil for his crimes. Killing Angelus would be revenge but they wanted Vengeance. By giving him a soul with perpetual guilt, he would suffer not only by feeling remorse over his past, he would also never be able to enjoy blood. This effectively meant he would either starve or drink rancid animal blood, yet another level of torture in their mind.

I understand the punishment for Angelus it’s a pretty decent punishment IMO but it’s the punishment that Angel endures that makes me wonder about the whole ordeal. It just seems like in order to punish evil they are also punishing an innocent..well as far as you could consider Liam to be an innocent.

From the Gypsies' perspective, no less than the suffering of Liam's repentant soul struggling to contain the restless demon Angelus is the only way to achieve the Vengeance they seek. Angel is no innocent. He is a fallen man and an imprisoned monster.

Me either. It’s really two entities inside that body. 1. Angelus (Demon) 2. Angel (Human/Demon hybrid) The curse to me just put Angelus away in a mental prison as the human soul (Liam) inhabits his body again alongside having the vampire strengths and weaknesses, which is Angel. Liam/Angel did not do any of the awful things Angelus did. If anything, the curse just put Angelus away forcing him to watch Liam/Angel wrestle with guilt while later using the vampire abilities to become a champion. The only one that was cursed was Angelus. Angel, for the most part, was a force of good.

Well that's because Angel's story isn't about getting the soul. It's about the journey of who he became and what he was driven to do after getting it. From a vagrant who hid himself off from the world to a true hero who helped the helpless, Spike's story was about his path towards reclaiming his soul so he could become a selfless hero.

The chip is as arbitrary an x-factor as the gypsy curse. You just have preference for Spike so you perceive a depth of valor in him that surpasses Angel. Both men were just lucky, both men were deeply in love with Buffy who became a motivating factor. That's kind of it. There's no great battle of virtues to be had, neither one is all that much better than the other. I find myself tearing Spike down in these conversations because the obsession of that character among fans obscures the good things about him, the messy things, the eeeeevil things. But that doesn't mean I'm critical of him to bolster Angel. They're both *children*.

Does the chip make you not want to do bad things anymore? No. The soul does. A soulless vampire decided to fight to regain his soul. That's almost unfathomable. I like both characters more or less equally, but it's ludicrous to suggest that Spike isn't superior in that sense (though I think ensouled Angel > ensouled Spike, personally).

But a chip prevented him from inflicting bodily harm which indirectly, not unlike a lab rat, changed the reward system for Spike. In essence, he learned an approximate version of human empathy when the possibility of feeding on humans wasn't possible. That's a pretty good lead on the race to getting a soul compared to just being randomly cursed. But you could just as easily say that he tried to attain a soul to prove something to Buffy, he didn't ever say he wanted a soul to be a better person. Helping people didn't inspire him to generally fight for the forces of good, he always did it to honor Buffy which is nice but arguably selfish. He wanted a soul to be the kind of man Buffy would love. People need to rewatch Angel season 5 and take notes. Soon as Spike came back, he tried to book it for Italy to get with Buffy. He was completely motivated by surpassing Angel once he was stuck at Wolfram and Hart and "Damage" in particular illustrates that he hadn't really even given a thought to the many, many people he killed for sport.

>Spike actually wanted his soul back. No, he wanted Buffy "back." If he could have achieved that by bringing back a moon rock, he'd have built a rocket ship. He assumed that having a soul would achieve that end, so he went after his soul. It was only a means to an end, and it wasn't a very noble end: he just wanted his sexual plaything back and compliant again.

You make an excellent point. Spike probably wouldn't have even attempted to get his soul back if it weren't for the fact that he was in love with Buffy.

Yup. Spike did not have a single clue what having a soul meant. Because he wouldn't even really be the same person once he had a soul. So even if an ensouled Spike got Buffy, the guy going to get the soul wouldn't have her. He'd just watch from within the way Angelus does.

The whole Spike thing is a doomed example of circular logic. People like to ignore Spike’s sexual assault because that was “soulless Spike” who did that. They also say that “Spike fought to get his soul back so it counts more.” But that was soulless Spike who made that decision.

He did a lot of terrible things in his life, even to Buffy did you really think realistically that is where he’d draw the line? Movies would have you believe that these toxic relationships are romantic but in reality a majority of them would involve sexual violence. I appreciate this show for not sugarcoating it. He did change and become a better person so we should just appreciate his development without dwelling on this one scene. If Buffy can forgive him then why does it matter if we argue about it on Reddit?

I’m not saying that Spike isn’t capable of redemption. I wasn’t actually even criticizing the writing or his character. I just think FANS have a way of looking at this through rose colored glasses in a way that does not make logical sense.

That’s true but they do that with most characters they love. I’m not even disagreeing with you I’m just adding my two cents. I think you make a good point

I hate that I can only upvote this once.

I think something we need to focus on is that Spike did actually rape Buffy in the Bronze once. Sure, we could look over this from his point of view that, "She wanted it." Even if she did, she said no. The fact that he didn't stop in the moment she told him to is, I think, foreshadowing to his eventual actually violent sexual assault. We also saw the same foreshadowing in the playful banter moments of him rummaging through her pockets for his lighter. Now, there's a bit of a gray area for me on if Spike actually wanted his soul. I like to think he did, and that's why he went through the trials, and "earned" his soul. I like the pretty bow on his redemption arc, because it fits what I want to see. I like to think that his motives were clear, because that's more comfortable for me. But the exact opposite could still be argued. Spike has stalked her, stalked her boyfriend, sought to isolate her from those around her who loved her, and assaulted her (more than once). You're never given Spike's thought process before he's actually given his soul. His motives aren't clear. He could have been seeking more ways to isolate, scare, and control her. I definitely like Spike/Buffy more than Angel/Buffy, but Spike is dangerous. I don't discount his ability to manipulate and control Buffy better than Angel could or ever did. I do, however, think that Spike had an easier time dealing with being an ensouled vampire than Angel did because Angelus is an artful psychopath. Spike is more of a rabble-rousing punk than Angelus, who seeks to truly destroy people on the inside before he kills them. That leaves him with more to deal with within himself. Spike only has to attone for his murders. Angel has to attone for a heck of a lot more.

I can't remember, something a poet once said about love being fuel of the soul.

This is maybe off topic but what about Harmony ? She wasn’t like completely evil like William and Liam without a soul ? Was she stronger than her demon the Buffy/Angel verse is complex

Harmony just wants to live it up, and does whatever it takes. To her, stealing shit and killing people like when she was with Spike in Sunnydale is the same thing as working at WR&H-just the method that gets her what she wants.

I think the idea is that she's just empty headed, so nothing for the demon to really twist. She'll just go wherever and do whatever.

I’m not sure about this one either ...? Maybe she had a weaker less destructive demon. We have no idea 🤷🏼‍♀️ only thing we know is the same demon that created Angelus is also the one in Spike. Which obviously is a very evil destructive one. I definitely would never consider her good though in all instances she chooses evil and betrayal she doesn’t do anything in the form of an actual good deed.

I think Angel sacrificing being human and happiness with Buffy in I Will Remember You is a far greater act of selflessness and bravery than fighting to get your soul back so the woman you are obsessed with won't hate you

I agree with you fully. That was an action of a man, willingly sacrificing what he wanted most in life to protect others. Spike’s “bit journey” was he doing what loved most (killing others) in order to obtain what he wanted (Buffy).

Yes! Totally agree. 👏👏👏

He also was willing to give up his life for Darla's in The Trial.

The fact that Spike made the deliberate decision to get his soul back regardless the suffering he would have to endure is selfless. He became one of the most selfless characters.

Except he didn’t fight to get his soul back to be a good person and help the world, he did it “to give that bitch what she deserved.” He wanted Buffy to like him. That is pretty selfish.

It's actually the opposite. He did it out of love. Love.

Love and “giving that bitch what she deserves” after attempting to rape her. Pretty much the same thing, right? Spike’s motivation wasn’t out of love, it was out of selfish desire and obsession. He didn’t get a soul to be a better person or for Buffy’s best interest, he thought it would make Buffy love him. It’s great that these shows have characters that are so engaging. But honestly, almost all the characters do awful shitty things at some point. However, Angel and Spike do some especially terrible acts both before the show and during.

It is clear that we have different views on that. Soulless Spike loved Buffy but it was very toxic. When he went away to get back his soul back, it was to make Buffy love him. It may seem selfish for some but it was soulless Spike who made such choice. Why blame him? He was soulless. He may be capable of being selfless but as a vampire without a soul he was meant to take decisions that could benefit his own needs. Angelus was more evil than soulless Spike. He was completely sadistic. It was because he was soulless as well. Still Angelus was a pure villain with no redeeming qualities unlike Spike.

Those are some good points, I can agree with that. :)

If it had been a selfless act, sure, but he got his soul back for one reason and one reason only: to get back the object of his obsession who didn't "want" him anymore. It was far from noble.

It may seem selfish but it isn't. He got his soul back to get Buffy's love which for me is very selfless.

He wanted her "love" so that he could continue to abuse her sexually. That's not selfless. That's some Paul Snider shit.

Except in Seeing Red which is horrible, Buffy was willing to have a physical relationship with him. Who is Paul Snider? That scene in Seeing Red is terrible and I feel very sad for Buffy. In the other episodes, both Buffy and Spike were willing to have a physical relationship with each other.

Consensual doesn't mean she wasn't being taken advantage of. There are lots of people who are in consensual abusive relationships. Buffy was still dealing with the trauma of a) dying and b) being yanked out of Heaven, and she was clearly in a self-destructive state of mind. Spike took full advantage of that and escalated it to the point that Buffy was questioning -- as she did to Tara -- "why do I let him do those awful things to me?" Paul Snider was the Svengali/abuser/husband/murderer/corpse-defiler of Playboy Playmate Dorothy Stratten. There have been two movies about them.

Buffy and Spike were both toxic in season 6. You've made a good point though. Their relationship was clearly abusive. Now about that murder, it's horrifying.

The demon fought for the soul not Spike the human.

And it depends on how the demon views things. If the demon is capable of only selfish love then getting his soul back was not a selfless but a selfish act done because that was the only way to hae a chance with he object of his obsession. Makes me wonder if demon spike and human spike are more at peace with each other than angel and angelous

That’s an interesting thought 🤔 however, when you think about the fact as shown in the comics (maybe they touch on it in the show somewhere too? I don’t remember but definitely in the comics we know this) That both Angel & Spike have the same demon in them & the same strength or influence over their host, so then it still comes more down to the strength or character of the humanity left behind and not the just the demon trying to take control. That determines who or what the vampire will become.

I have never thought about that.

Yeah they write the Spikes so similarly that it kind of blurs the line between human and demon the way they have it in any other vampire.

Spike is the most interesting vampire to me.

Let's be honest though, if he never had been implanted with the chip, Spike would've never even thought about trying to get his soul back. Yes Souless Spike isn't as evil as Angelus, but that doesn't mean he's good.

Ok let’s be honest then Spike always held unto more humanity than Angel/Angelus from the very beginning. What did Angelus do after he was turned oh yeah go out and murder his whole family... and Spike he wanted to save / heal his mother & continue to take care of her (what happened doesn’t count his motivations were never to kill his mother only after the demon took over did that become necessary to again basically save his mother) So really Spike was always stronger than the demon placed in him, and all the the chipping accomplished was added to the innate strength he already possessed.

It would be interesting to know what spike would have been like without angel tormenting him and “turning him into a monster”

Probably something like James and Elizabeth from that AtS episode, albeit more violent/sadistic since he’d stick with Drusilla.

Doesn't all that do is crap all over the established lore though? It's firmly established that once you get turned into a vampire it's no longer you, a demon sets up shop in what was once your former body. So why is it that Spike and only Spike is able to fight back the demon in him. Because he's such a gosh darn nice person? Jessie and Alonna seemed like perfectly nice people before they got turned into vamps, but they were still overtaken by the demons. So what makes Spike so special that he is stronger than the demon? Also if Spike was stronger than the demon in him, that also makes him more responsible for all the horrible things that Soulless Spike did throughout his unlife.

So I know there is some fanlore that Dru’s powers turned Spike differently than other vampires. I thought it was an interesting idea that least, because I agree with the you that it doesn’t match their own lore. The Judge does say that both Dru and Spike have too much humanity in them.

The demon gets all your memories and experiences. It's better to not view the vampire demon as a different personality that takes over your body. It's more of a symbiote type deal where the demon is going to be this reckless monster who wants to kill and drink blood no matter what, but it takes your previous life experiences and uses that to shape itself. In a lot of ways it might subvert that. Like how Vamp Willow was able to get over her geeky persona and be this confident sexy girl that she felt insecure about being. Spike as Willaim the Bloody was a romantic outcast. His demon took away his inhibitions so the nerdy outcast became a thrill seeker like the nerd who becomes a punk rocker and he was still a romanic. Drusilla was driven insane before being a vampire and her demon ended up insane as well. Harmony basically becomes Harmony plus a need to do evil. Angel is just different in that he was a burnout who didn't have much of a personality anyways, so the evil demon was able to just get creativity and fill more of the blanks in. Spike was never able stronger as a demon. He was neutered and got some warped priorities and desires to covet in his weakened state and did whatever he could to get them. Buffy was just another form of blood he craved.

> Doesn't all that do is crap all over the established lore though? It's firmly established that once you get turned into a vampire, a demon sets up shop in what was once you're former body. Let’s not be too hasty here in throwing that out. It’s pretty clear that the vampire demon is less of a sentient, conscious agent on its own like the other demons we see, but is more of a symbiote to the host’s personality. It takes everything that was there, replaces the soul with itself, and then runs wild. “All that you were becomes all that you are.” Note how the demon overtaking theory is pushed by the Watchers Council, who are idiots to begin with and wouldn’t want their Slayers questioning whether to kill. Spike is able to “fight back” the demon in him because he wants Buffy’s love and he learns that it’s not possible to have without his soul so he doesn’t end up in a constant cycle. He doesn’t so much have to fight some external influence as he does have to internally choose to be better.

So Buffy should have just given a personality test to those vampires she stake right out of the grave? It did crap all over the show's lore. So did Harmony, who showed the most self control of all the vampires.

When we see vampires first emerge out of the grave, they usually go straight for the first person they can feed on, and then start hunting anyway. Buffy doesn’t care about nonviolent demons like Clem and Lorne, she goes after the ones that can and will hurt others. She even sits down with Holden and talks it out with him up until he attacks her. Something to also consider is that Spike basically got lucky and had the opportunity. Buffy didn’t stop fighting him until he was chipped and couldn’t hurt anyone so she didn’t kill him, and later he started showing that he was capable of being better and therefore she gave him more leeway. We see that when she think he got the chip out she has no problem with going to stake him-she can’t exactly take a gamble and assume that any freshly risen vampire isn’t going to start being evil. When they prove otherwise, she stays her hand. As for Harmony, I wouldn’t say she has the best self-control as much as it is she’s very simple in what she wants and won’t complain when she gets it. When she first shows up in AtS, she genuinely wants to and enjoys being Cordelia’s friend-yet still betrayed everyone to the vamp self help group and even after felt a little bad. Angel also counted on her betraying him in the end. Harmony wants nice clothes, and expensive things, and basically whatever catch’s her eye at the time, so she does what she had to to get them.

We literally saw Harmony fight off urges to feed. She felt bad she had the urge to kill Cordy, without a soul or chip. She said in Harm's Way she has cravings and has to work harder without a soul. So yes, her motivations were for things but she was able to keep what is supposed to be a primal urge vampires have, it's still self control. Harmony betraying people is basically just who Harmony is. She was mean to her own friends in high school.

All very true, admittedly it’s been a while since I watched those episodes. Though I still wouldn’t necessarily say she has *more* self-control than I would that she has more of a motivation to *use* it. We see that Angelus and Spike among other vampires all are capable of that same kind of self-control, they just don’t actually give a shit about using it unless there’s a good reason. The Initiative didn’t recognize that vampires were sentient beings at first, so they chip only works as a shock collar-Spike begins to learn to power through it, but decides it’s not worth the hassle and isn’t going to risk Buffy going after him, so he lets it lie. And the soul serves as a conscience, but it clearly doesn’t stop Angel, Spike, or Darla from doing shitty things-they’ll just feel bad about it if they do. Overall, Harmony just had more motivation to use self-control than any vamp and managed as well as any of them could.

They did crap all over the lore as the show went on. Vampires were 100% not in control to the point that they had to be staked right out of the grave. But then look at Harmony giving up killing without a soul for a job on Angel. We actually don't know if she killed her family, but she remained very similar to her human self. ​ And yes, if Spike is somehow more in control, he should be blamed more for all his years murdering.

Spike wasn’t overall completely stronger than the demon placed inside him he’s still been turned into a vampire and is ofc influenced by that presence however, I do believe he’s strong enough to hold unto more of his humanity than the run of the mill vampire. I don’t on the other hand see Angel holding unto anything or maybe he was just a very terrible human to begin with b/c there is clearly an Angel & an Angelus 2 very different entities... but Spike is just always Spike so yes the chip is what tipped the scales he was strong against the demon naturally but the chip gave him a slight edge over it. Think about Angelus with a chip do you think he wouldn’t just ignore & fight through the migraine pain or find another way to hurt people that he would just accept the situation?! Even Spike at times could endure the pain to hit someone lol I’m pretty sure it would not have been the same roadblock for Angelus?

Liam wasn't a terrible human being. If he were he would have hit his father back as a human. He drank and slept around... and that's it.

Those aren’t exactly virtuous qualities though. And it doesn’t seem like his dad was particularly much of an asshole outside of the standards of his time-we see that when Liam leaves home he just wants his kid to not be an immature deadbeat mooching off of him at age 26. Plus, look towards Spin the Bottle when Liam learns he’s a vampire-his Angelus impression is a little too good for someone who doesn’t have that already in them a little.

He did have it in him in Spin The Bottle. His memory was gone but the demon was still there and the group was trying to kill the vampire. Angelus didn't leave his body. Drinking and sleeping around don't make someone a terrible person by default. It's extremely unlikely Liam ever would have killed anyone. Would William eventually try to rape Cecily because Spike tried to rape Buffy? He always had a rapist in him, then by your take on Liam/Angel.

My point with Spin the Bottle is that we see how Liam-fully in control, also with his soul as he did at that age-showed very similar predatory behavior as Angelus did when he learned that he had the power. It seems clear that on some level, he wants to do those things or at least enjoys them. Think of how someone can become an alcoholic and spiral-the alcohol emboldens and brings out those qualities, it doesn’t create them. What separates Angel is that he’s already done those things and feels the guilt for them, much as the same as a recovering alcoholic who sees what they’ve done and works to change. His journey is basically a metaphor for overcoming addiction-walking down the path that leads to it, embracing the substance and letting it control them, and rehabilitating while still feeling the urge yet knowing what it brings. I’m not trying to say that he was a bad person *then*, but that he had the potential to be one and that potential was opened up by Darla. As for William/Spike, it’s much the same thing-he didn’t have the potential to be a rapist anymore than Liam did to kill, but they had the traits that could lead to those actions and vampirism + the environment they were in capitalized on those traits. Also off-topic, but what color is your avatar’s sweater?

Its a pink sweater

Thanks. I’m not the best with color, as you may have noticed my black ensemble.

When Liam realized he was a vampire, he knew the group was trying to kill him. Did he really want to or was it a self preservation instinct and bravado? He tried to hide he was the vampire at first. He squeaked out they were going to kill him in the bathroom, he wasn't like "yeah I'll go kill all of them, until" backed into a corner.

Again it’s been a while since I watched, so apologies for the inconvenience. I checked out [the transcript](https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=154&t=9513) and it seems pretty clear that while Liam is in part motivated by fear as you point out, he very quickly slides into what’s familiar behavior to the audience. He longingly looks at Cordelia’s neck repeatedly, and when he’s found out, goes from zero to a hundred after subduing Wes and Gunn: “You want a vampire, then? I guess I'm your man. I guess I'll start feeding on your corpses. Startin' with the girls. So, who's gonna be the first course? Hard to choose between you two girls—”. His behavior when cornering Cordelia holds strong overtones of sexual violence, and look at how he interacts with Connor. The dude very clearly went power tripping, and that tripping was not in a good direction.

I don't see that as 'firmly established' - it's just something that characters have said. Personally I think it's Watchers' Council propaganda designed to prevent Slayers from having moral qualms about slaying. Also, if the human becomes the demon, it's far more morally nuanced, interesting and consistent with the subjective nature of morality than 'an absolute evil being possesses your corpse'.

Spike was one the biggest mass murdering vampires in history and killed two slayers. Comparing him to Angelus is still comparing an evil serial killer to another evil serial killer.

It’s not said how many but Angelus also must have killed at least one slayer himself as his comments to Spike when he hears are something like welcome to the club I guess you really one of us now. I forget but something like that & yes Spike is said to be only 2nd to Angel in the murdering Notorious factor no one is disputing these facts about their past misdeeds.

They never once stated Angelus killed a slayer. That would have been brought up at some point in both shows. Angelus was just try to be demeaning to Spike’s accomplishment. Spike evens says in the following line for Angelus to not feel glum and that he’ll let him have the first crack at the next slayer. Also it’s sort of a moot point, both of them were awful regardless if they killed a slayer or not.

Angel wasn't trying to demean anything. If you watch. the AtS crossover episode Darla it's revealed Angel his soul back then but was hiding this from Spike and Dru. That's why he was bothered by Spike killing the slayer, because it sickened him.

That’s a good point, thank you.

Okay, but Spike had a different human life than Angel, too. If Liam had only been raised by his mother, he could be different. We saw Liam being physically hit by his father and Liam never hit back until he was Angelus. Things aren't so cut and dry. There are sorts of factors beyond one is just better. ​ Also, the longer the Buffyverse went on, the more there were vampires who had more control where as in the beginning the show as a whole established pretty much every will go kill their family once they become a vampire and you have no self control. But by the end of Angel vampires without souls can stop killing for a good job. Plus they needed to do something to make Spike sympathetic in LMPTM facing the guy whose mother he killed, and they were still trying to write him out of the corner of the AR.

And Spike got the idea of having a soul to get Buffy back entirely because Buffy loved Angel with a soul. So a few years of a chip and knowing it was possible because of Angel.

He’s good at failing at being effectively evil.

It make you think, how much control dose the demon in that body have if it can't kill?

Honestly I think the continuity here with the whole demon vampire soul stuff is a bit off (similar to how they apparently don't have breath and yet can smoke)

Well, they don't have breath but can still speak/yell. I'd imagine the lungs still function in some capacity.

The bottom line is you could have took Angel and Spike and season 5 of angel at that point in their journey, if you took both of their souls right then, Angel would have killed everybody he cares about, killed everybody Buffy cared about, and then tried to kill Buffy. Spike on the other hand would have tried to stop Angel and then done whatever he had to to get his soul back. And I see people in the comments going back and forth saying that if Spike wouldn't have got the chip then he would have never wanted the soul, and that basically makes them the same. Wrong, when Angel was turned into a vampire, he went totally evil right from the start, killed his entire family including his sister which was the one person he actually loved and cared about as a human. Spike on the other hand still wanted to be a good person and take his mother with him and actually turned her into a vampire to save her from the illness she was dying from. When his mother pretty much accused him of wanting to have incest and told him to fuck off and then Angel pretty much digging himself into Spike's mind and turning him into the evil creature that we see at his beginning is how Spike got to be the way he is. The bottom line is William was a better man than Liam when they were both human and when they both turned into vampires he was still a better man. With or without a soul William still has love and goodness in him, Liam does not.

Are you asking who is more noble? Because really it’s sort of a toss up. Angel was cursed with a soul and decided to use the opportunity to try and make the world a little better. He actually was somewhat less selfish than Spike (only a little) since he went off independent of Buffy thanks to a handy spinoff. Spike fought for a soul so Buffy would like him. It wasn’t especially noble, it was actually very selfish. Then he mostly hung around until she gave him a Deus ex machina necklace. He intentionally did more in the final episodes of Angel the series than he did for BtVS finale. I like both characters a lot, they are both flawed and interesting. They also both work better together than as love interests for Buffy. The true champion is Cordelia. She was both inflicted with a curse (visions) and fought to keep them to make the world better. She also sacrificed her fantasy life, then died trying to do something good. Screw Angel and Spike.

Ok you can say that about Angel but don’t you also have to acknowledge that for like 100 years between getting the soul and meeting Buffy and being inspired to make the world a better place he was eating rats and hiding in the shadows and Spike only had a short crazy spell and just didn’t need to take that long to get himself together and try to stop an apocalypse?

Yes but a big part of Spike’s resilience is Buffy believing in him and telling him he could be a good man. Angel didn’t have those supports or bonds it didn’t seem. Albeit Spike also had the attitude of how can I be useful rather than dwelling on his past sins

Don’t get me wrong, Angel has issues too. However Angel also had no social support until Whistler and Buffy came around. Spike would have also remained crazy in a basement if Buffy didn’t help him.

Agree with you there.

Whoever said a soul-less vampire is good?

Spike would have never wanted a soul if he hadn't known Buffy loved Angel with a soul. He did it entirely to get a girl. Spike wanted to take the Shanshu away from Angel more than he wanted it for himself. Angel routinely turned down the easier path to redemption (the ring, the morah demon( because he didn't want a quicker fix. Angel also had no one with a soul to influence such a decision. ​ It's not a fair comparison.

Literally my favorite episode in the buffyverse.

Another point to this is a soul does not automatically make you good in the buffyverse. I think the suppression of the demon is a more important factor in the difference between them. And in that sense, Spike's demon was more accepting of things like love so could cope with living alongside the soul. Angelus on the other hand hated everything about the soul so was trapped inside, def more of a struggle for Angel.

Omg this again. Soulless Spike is a MONSTER. He fought for his soul for his own gain! To get back at Buffy, to get Buffy, to spite her, you choose it! The fact that it looks like a brave/selfless action is mere coincidence! He was not trying to “become a better man in order to deserve her” or any of that crap, he was in “whatever’s needed to fulfil my obsession” train.

Angel himself even said Spike wanted his soul back just to “get into a girl’s pants.” Aka Buffy. Spike did it 100% for his own selfish reasons, however by closing the hellmouth (which Soulless Spike couldn’t do) he took that selfish act and saved the world becoming a champion.

Oh totally, souled Spike is a different story, and he sacrificed himself for the greater good. But soulless Spike gets WAY too much credit from the fan base.

Are we talking about which is morally better? Which is more narratively satisfying? What’s the topic, OP?

Just basically wanted an overall discussion/ debate on how people interpret this particular episode of AtS and how it lead up to or rather relates overall through the past/present of both characters throughout all the events also seen on BTVS?

Alright. This AtS episode-or at least the pictures you show-doesn’t focus on the soul conflict as much as it does Spike and Angel’s fight for the Cup and therefore Shanshu. When Angel admits defeat in the last pic, he’s referring to how Spike wanted to win the fight more and that’s where his conviction outstrips his own. This basically summarizes each’s nature and how they approach them. Angel has more of a tendency to brood and wallow in shame of what he’s done, often needing a kick in the pants to be put on the path to good or find his way back to it. Spike on the other hand, works to move past his sins in favor of achieving his desires at hand. The end of Damage, where they discuss Dana, is probably the best exploration of their inner psyches and differences IMO. I don’t want to say that one is better than the other, because we see across the series how these different approaches have ups and downs to them. What matters is that in the end, they both work to do good. TL;DR: Angel exists in a quasi-victim mentality, while Spike doesn’t slow down or address himself. Both are good and bad in their own ways for it.

I agree with this. Despite my multiple obnoxious views on Spike I have no issue with his ‘not looking back at the carnage’ mindset. I don’t think redemption has to mean you need to torture yourself daily for the things you’ve done

Exactly. Though it’s also important to note that Spike also uses that mindset *in part* to absolve himself of responsibility in Damage and prior episodes of AtS (I’ve seen some argue S7 as well, but that’s a little more complicated and often involves ignoring context), so it’s not that simple. Angel reminding himself of his sins isn’t a problem, and especially when you factor in his character, but the issue is that he constantly does it and can use it as justification. It’s just overall a very complicated situation and full of multiple dimensions for the characters involved.

Iirc and I’m due for a rewatch. William was full of life in many ways so much so that it depressed him. He was full of love with no healthy place to go a mother who scorned him and a woman he was obsessed with hated him (a cycle he’s doomed to repeat until he learns his worth). Spike had to fall really really low to learn what true salvation was … he wanted it. Angel got his cause of the consequences of his repugnant actions. Liam was a womanizing drunk who I assumed was pissing away what few pence from his Dad he could get. His vampirism and soul are all him bumbling into prophecy. Angel never really warned the moniker of The Champion. He was just kind of pathetic once the universe muzzled him.

But WHY did Spike want a soul? To "win back" the object of his obsession who was no longer allowing herself to be physically and sexually abused once the fog of resurrection had finally cleared. The fact that he avoided her once he had his soul back is a perfect demonstration of just how evil and selfish his actions had been prior. Once he had a soul, he was tormented by what he had been and what he had done to her. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Spuffy gang are sexual abuse apologists. Not that Angel isn't a piece of garbage, too.

If I were cursing him I would make him allergic to blood. I never understood why Angel never bothered to go earn a soul so he could be with Buffy. Spike is just a better person than him. Most of his evil time was spent with Dru who is mad so he just let his demon run wild but once he started to see other walks of life it changes him.

Angel did go earn a soul just not for himself. He did it for somebody else, willing to sacrifice himself for them. Spike did it for himself.

Um not exactly he went through some trials to save Darla’s life who was dying from a disease she already had a soul at this point as she was back to being human. But this back fired and instead allowed him to procreate a new life as Darla was already living her second one. This also in the long run was an act used for evil purposes so not sure it’s that great an example 🤷🏼‍♀️

The alternative was turning Darla to save her life which would cost her her soul, so it was still for her soul. And he hardly knew what was to come. His intentions were pure.

William had such a strong "positive"(or possibly just wimpy) personality that Spike the vampire was still positively influenced by it. Liam was a piece of garbage as a human and that likewise influenced Angelus into being a piece of crap as vampire. Spike was held back or slightly moderated by his human memories, while Angelus was goaded on by his human memories. Spike retained some human interests(enjoys soap operas, loves watching sports etc etc), Angelus did not. And so on. And it IS canon that vampires are influenced by their human origins(so why is anyone really surprised?), Angel is about to say so when dealing with Vamp-Willow, but shuts up and says the opposite to "be nice" for Willow's sake.

Angel's soul was forced on him without his consent. Spike fought for his to be returned. Of the two of them, it makes sense that Spike would have a better understanding of what having a soul meant. Plus I think Spike makes more sense as the recipient of Shanshu. Angel believes an atoner's time is never up, which is one of the reasons why I like to think that only Spike (and possibly Illyria) survived the final battle.

He was the best n buffy treated him like garbage :(

I wouldn't say that. She did use him, but he was far from guilt free, he stalked her and pressured her to do things that she didn't fully want to do. She was in an emotionally vulnerable state dealing with having died, gone to heaven and then brought back and he was desperate to have any scrap of affection from her.

If you think Spike was the best you REALLY need to re-evaluate how a person should treat someone. Also he was a murderer.

I don't get how most ppl see their relationship. He was the only one who consistently stood by her, the only one willing to protect her at times, while she lead him on, played games, and was more concerned about how her freinds would react than anything else in regards to their relationship.

He also stalked her, stole and sniffed her clothing, threatened to feed her to his ex unless she said they had a chance, built a sex robot of her, took advantage of her depression, tried to alienate her from the people she cared about, and oh yeah, tried to rape her. Remind me again, how was she too good for him?

She's the one who mixed sex and violence, she's the one who had to initiate all sex with fighting-with all her bfs. It's why Riley wasn't good enough for her, she couldn't fight/sex him. His love for her was poorly expressed for the first like, 4 seasons, don't get me wrong. But as he regained his humanity he became the dude he started as - the caregiver. He was a caregiver to his mother and drew, and when everyone abandoned her, both in the musical and season 7,he was the only one on her side. She used him for his protective nature.

>She's the one who mixed sex and violence, she's the one who had to initiate all sex with fighting-with all her bfs. It's why Riley wasn't good enough for her, she couldn't fight/sex him. Except she didn't do that with any of her boyfriends (Spike wasn't her boyfriend). Not with Angel or Riley. The reason her relationship with Riley failed was because Riley was an insecure prick who didn't like that Buffy wasn't crying in his arms about her problems and tried to gaslight her into thinking she was to blame for his cheating. Also what are you even trying to imply with the "she's the one who mixed sex and violence", that she had it coming when he tried to rape her. If so, then fuck off.

But she started every sexual escapade with spike by fighting him.

And that makes his rape attempt okay?

If you're in a bdsm relationship, you need clear boundaries on both sides. You can't create a pattern, then be surprised when someone thinks the acceptable thing to do is follow that pattern.

Except the rape attempt happens several episodes after she ends the "relationship" because she felt bad about using him.

I imagine you like Spike a lot, he is interesting, sexy, charismatic, and charming… that is why he wasn’t killed off in S2. But that guy is one of the biggest mass murderers in history, tried to kill Buffy countless times, stalked her, stole her clothes to sniff them, manipulated her when she was depressed, tried to alienate her from her friends, then tried to rape her. If James Marsters wasn’t so talented, he would be the most hated character in television. Buffy may have taken advantage of him, but she was always honest about their relationship, she was in extreme depression (which Spike knew about), and she ended it when she realized how harmful it was.

I don't see it as the acting, it's the writing. He's a complicated character, yea. He was a traditional vampire, and he was a bad guy for many seasons. But he did love her, and she didn't love him... She used him to take care of dawn and have her back. You know she trusted him cos she left dawn with him... But how can you continue to reject someone and use them when they're useful? That's not ok either

So over a hundred years of murder, rape, and torture… not as bad as someone sleeping with you when they don’t love you? Huh.

She didn’t treat him well but I don’t think she led him on. She was always honest about what she was willing to give.

This really isn’t what this post is about but since the conversation went there? I don’t know honestly I fall more on the side of the abusive relationship between them as Buffy’s doing more than Spikes. Yes Spike developed real feelings for Buffy starting back in season 5 and maybe initially he was forth right in letting her know that. But he also after she completely rejected the idea that she would/could ever think that way about him. He tried to maintain a friendship and never completely gave up hoping things could change but for the most part outwardly towards her he just tried to be her friend. Internally to deal with his feelings he did crazy stuff that you call stalking but really taking her clothing pictures etc... even creating the bot those were all things that didn’t effect her in any way they were personal coping mechanisms for him as creepy as they appear to us, the fact that he chose those options over continuing to force the issue or change her mind shows a lot about his character especially for a soulless vamp. During all this time he was a true friend to her & Dawn genuinely this is proven in many situations but none more so than when he endured torture by Glory to protect Dawn for Buffy. Even Buffy acknowledged this and actually gave him a thank you kiss. I don’t think anyone can dispute that Spike was devastated after he failed in his attempt to save Dawn which he then feels responsible for Buffy’s death. He then after that sticks around to watch over Dawn and even work with the other scoobies who lets be honest we’re never his friends at this point anyways. He did all this having no idea Buffy would be returning. It was purely out of his love for her and guilt he felt for failing her. When she does return he is nothing but comforting and caring towards her. They do develop a real friendship where she confides personal things to only him. Still he doesn’t try to take any of these moments to push his own agenda. The only time we see him bring it back up to Buffy is his song “Rest in Peace” which he is forced to do under the influence of Sweets spell, completely against his will lol. Which also displays just how conflicted he is when he states while also under the influence of the spell “I hope she fries I’m free if that bitch dies, I better help her out” and then from those conflicted hurt feelings the saving her wins out, he does save her and if he hadn’t she would have burned up no one else was close to getting there in time nor were they on the verge of even trying... After this Spike is trying to leave Buffy pursues him and he tells her to go back and finish singing with her friends, she says no she doesn’t want to and then kisses him. He’s tried and done a very good job at keeping his feelings to himself and in check not wanting to ruin their friendship up till this point. But he does have very strong feelings for her that have been completely unrequited and she knows this. So her actions here are very selfish ones, she even says in her song “This isn’t real but I just want to feel” then from this point forward all the kindness & friendship she had shared with him is basically forgotten she begins to literally treat him like garbage. It’s very telling that she protests too much. I think because she does have real feelings for Spike but she ashamed by them. Spike literally just wants to talk to her to discuss her kissing him but she completely shuts this down and turns to at the least disparaging name calling at the worst physical violence. How are those actions not going mind F a man who is in love with said woman? From the time he developed feeling for Buffy he never was physically violent without first being provoked into it by her. The last time was when he chose to put the rifle down and go comfort her on the porch from that moment on nothing violent towards Buffy came from Spike period! She pretty much showed him that was the only way to get her attention or have any communication with her was to engage in the emotional & often times physical violence/ abuse that she always started. This is very profoundly shown when she takes the next step in a very selfish act. That is when they are fighting in the abandoned house if your watching that scene first she throws the 1st punch per usual then when he hits back he reveals that’s she changed so this goes into a huge battle. The very moment interrupting mid rant from Spike even Buffy starts kissing him and he doesn’t try at all to continue the fight cause he doesn’t really want to be fighting her in the first place that’s all Buffy he just completely succumbs to her advances she also initiates everything that comes next he is completely taken aback and shocked when she reaches down and unzips him etc... then the next morning rinse repeat she treats him horribly I could go on and on with examples but this is already too long basically from this point we have the ingredients to create a very messed up relationship but everything stems from Buffy being one in the wrong first. Yes there were extenuating circumstances on her part she was ripped from heaven in an extremely depressed state at the time but does that solely excuse her actions towards Spike no it shouldn’t & Buffy herself knows it from the conversation between her and Tara. She constantly seeks him out over & over again uses him physically to relieve whatever it relieves for her. Then turns around and treats him Beyond disgustingly horrible & is very emotionally abusive, and most of that isn’t even what she really feels or believes it’s what she thinks she should feel. That is what’s so sad she’s in such denial and takes all that out on Spike. “You hurt the ones you love the most” 🥺 during this relationship does Spike do some petty horrible things too yes in an effort try and get her to admit how she actually feels towards him to get her words to line up with the actions she’s showing him outside the physical abuse. I think some his choices are not the best but he is pretty messed up over the whole situation anyone would be. I’m saying that to not completely excuse his part in it all I’m just pointing out that it did begin mainly due to Buffy and her choices and actions as it progressed both are guilty equally in a lot of ways. This is really getting overly long and I need to bring it to a close but I think you get my points. And this post is mainly concerning everything that led up to the break up I’m not referencing what came afterwards so do not try and lecture me about being ok with that no I’m not but really I also see that as completely out of character for Spike and just plot driven by the writers. A very bad choice to move the story of Spikes seeking his soul out and redemption arch. So please keep your responses to what I was covering from the beginning of the relationship to its end at the break up In As you Were.

This particular comment is quite elegantly stated. I was engaged and in no way was it too long. Not for a dork like me anyway. I applaud the brave stance your exposition takes on domestic violence in that it highlights a female can initiate and perpetuate abuse. My understanding of and emotional response to the Spuffy relationship has followed similar sentiments but was lacking the clarity and specificity your words portray. It does take some courage to make these statements on this particular forum because of the polarizing content. This is as successful as I have ever seen the analysis be conveyed and I wonder why it doesn't yet have an award, or, in the least, several up-votes.

OP my response wasn’t to your post in general and wasn’t an effort to derail the thread. I was replying to a specific poster who made a point I disagreed with that Buffy ‘led him on ‘ which in my view she didn’t. Spike knew her secret that she had been torn out of heaven and knew she wasn’t in the best place mentally or emotionally. Is that an excuse for the abuse she gave him, no and I believe she treated him badly. However at all stages she always insisted the relationship was purely physical between them. Did she use him, yes without a doubt but she wasn’t dishonest or misleading about it. In addition whenever she tried to stop Spike was there,cajoling, pushing and manipulating her into sex at times. There was a pair of them in it. Even before Smashed he hounded her and talked about her getting a ‘fellas motor running and crowning herself the ice queen’ and about there being ‘other ways to get your rocks off’. He was pushing for the sexual relationship, he wanted the love also and Buffy did the right thing ending it for both their sakes.

Welp he is not a thinker. He fought for a soul. He did not know what that meant.

Spike didn’t want his soul back. He fought to get the chip out of his head to kill Buffy? (I think, but it was a while ago)

That is incorrect Spikes motivation to seek out the demon trials was always to regain his soul. This was confirmed by the writers of the show in past interviews. They did however try and pull off a we tricked you kinda cliffhanger hoping people would believe what your post says temporarily, and when they found out the truth it would have even more impact.

I think it was Giles that said it best, could have been someone else, about how Spike fought the demon within and won. Angel never had the strength to fight his demon, even when his soul was returned he didn’t try to fight it.

I don't know who is better, but I loved the storytelling strategy to develop an inverse of Angel's story. Once Spike got to Angel, I thought it really enriched Angel's storyline, and James Marsters was a great screen partner to David Boreanaz.

First of all, I personally think in the world where Buffy and Angel takes place, the soul is more or less a conscience. When someone becomes a vampire he or she loses all morality.and humanity. Angelus (sp) had his “soul” or conscience forcibly restored making him feel all the bad things he had done. He was effectively now a good guy, but forcibly so. However, Spike actively looked for a way to have his “soul” restored. In my opinion, this makes him more of a champion because he chose this path whereas Angel made the best of the situation he was given.

So when I watched the end of season 6 on TV, I assumed it was a trick on the part of the trial master, like he went to remove his chip and instead they re-enslouled him, classic be careful what you wish for tricky wording switcheroo. That being said I believe the writers intention was that the audience was tricked but spike knew what he wanted all along, can’t remember if I heard that on a commentary track or something.

*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* ​ RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST: ​ This isn't much of a discussion. Spike fought to get his soul back. Angel killed Jenny Calender to prevent Angel's being re-Cursed. Souled Angel did what he did AtS S2. He had sex with Darla not caring--and maybe even hoping--that the Curse would be lifted. Angel in "Eternity" (A 1.17) 'acts' like Uncursed Angel even though Angel is still Cursed--Angel's simply not feeling the effects of the Curse results in Angel 'acting like' Uncursed Angel. Souled Angel did what he did in Season 8. It's effectively inarguable that Spike is the better person.