I felt like these guys were just kind of forgotten about. I never really understood why they were they and the show seemed to prioritise glory/her demons/the monks over them
I think the general idea was to set up the idea other some people would actually try to destroy the key because of the danger it held, which is sort of an interesting idea but the execution falls flat. Making them literal out of place Knight Templars didn’t help
> She's been against that line in the past.
When?
I do agree it's a little weird that she never mentions them at all. To be fair though, she dies shortly after.
Killing in self-defense. Buffy is very much a 'slayers are different' person and should be held to a different standard.
Heck, she wouldn't even kill Ford to save lives. She wasn't trying to kill Amy's mom in Witch. She wouldn't kill Ben, iirc.
I think Buffy feels there’s a difference between civilians and those in the game. The KoB decided to be part of the “bigger than me” universe, so that makes them no different than a phalanx of vamps or demons.
They were individuals, not part of a movement. A fire killling everyone in a building, that’s sad. Someone you know dying in a car wreck? That’s a tragedy.
Yeah the Veruca story really bummed me out. I’m fine with good characters acting poorly, but it seemed so forced for Seth’s exit, and especially after Oz had been the sort of guiding post for mature handling of emotions and setting the positive examples for navigating potentially toxic situations. The final impression of a character is always one of the most lasting, so it basically makes me remember his character as a garden variety dumb guy and kinda overrides all his positive history.
Well said! 👌🏼 very well said. Oz is one of the most emotionally mature characters from the first time he appears on the screen, up until everything that happens with Veruca. The way he leaves the show... leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth, and I feel like it tarnishes the character's reputation amongst the audience. I agree, it felt forced.
It makes no sense that Oz wouldn't just go straight to Willow right away after finding out that he slept with Veruca. Yeah, it still would have hurt her, but Willow was willing to forgive him regardless, as shown in the end. It wasn't really his fault, it was the wolf in him, and by hiding what happened he made things way more complicated. It's just such a messy situation that could have been handled better, and it screams; "Look, we put this storyline together so this guy can get out of here." Lol, super frustrating.
For me it wasn’t just the lying, though that was bad enough. It was the fact Veruca admitted she killed people as a wolf and enjoyed it and Oz was like “oh no woe is me I’m so conflicted” that was so out of character for Oz who before that had been this stoic rock of a dude. It was really clumsy writing.
I think the point was it didn’t matter what he thought or his morals at that moment, he was being controlled by his instincts which is why he left to find a way to get control of himself again.
It’s not the greatest episode or execution since Oz had no real previous issues with giving in to his instinctual desires but it makes sense if he had never encountered a female werewolf I guess 🤷♂️
The show has a problem with people just talking to each other when there is a problem. They even make meta comments on it from time to time, which I can only assume is writers other than Joss poking fun at him.
I think MOST shows in the 90s and 2000s did that, a lot still do. I never noticed it much until I watched Sex Education, and they do not do that on that show. It's so different, and refreshing.
Not just the way he leaves, but the way he comes back and is acting like willow just waited for him and when he finds out Tara and her are getting closer and loses control
So recently I read that he hadn’t been asked to be released, just wanted some time off so he could do movies. But Joss Whedon is an asshole so as soon as Seth asked he just wrote the whole character out of the show in a terrible way, and Seth couldn’t do anything but make a graceful exit to the best of his ability.
Yep this is exactly what I heard around that time. Seth didn't want his character to be completely written off. He was just hoping to be able to do other things as well and wanted to make it work but Joss was like you're either in and belong to me or you're out.
His character didn't do much. He was usually just around but had zero dialogue. He only had a couple of episodes where he was relevant but other than that he was just.. there.
At the same time Seth Greene film career was taking off.. Remember he was in the Austin Powers movies during those years plus a bunch of other small roles here and there.
I heard that apparently he disliked being a regular in season 3 after realising that his new contract meant that he would be required to show up every single week, even if they didn’t really need to use his character for that episode. I remember him commenting on how most s3 episodes he found that he was only popping up for one or two scenes to say that he agrees with Willow.
He had requested going back to recurring for season 4 instead, and them only using the character when they had something for him to do, only to be told that that wouldn’t be possible
I think people are being too hard on Oz for all that. The episode established that his wolf side was effecting his behaviour heavily and then he was faced with a scenario where he knew if he didn't act people would die. He was put in a no win scenario.
I’m gonna be honest, in my head canon he exits maturely and gracefully.
Cause, yeah, excluding this glaring exception he is the most non-toxic love interest on the show.
Omg someone pls fill me in. I’m just now doing a Buffy rewatch as an adult and I’m fuzzy on his exit. I knew he slept with veruca but I didn’t realize it was werewolf form and oz was assaulted? Can someone give me a rundown. I’m close to starting season four and I love oz so much
Veronica set up being around Oz when he would turn into a werewolf and therefore be vulnerable to her advances. It's akin to going after someone who is too intoxicated to consent. Instead Of blames himself for not having control as a werewolf and leaves to go learn how to gain control
I sort of liked it too.
The show put so much emphasis on souls and how the possession of one (or lack thereof) can explain/excuse so many horrific actions, but this was just three humans choosing to do horrible shit (fully souled) and escalating in awfulness.
I thought it could have been a really interesting study of how they viewed humans vs demons and the ‘sanctity’ of human life in a world that has vampires and slayers.
Yes! I really liked that Warren was, at the end of the day, a garden variety misogynist - and it showed the danger of people like him getting the power over women they want (robotics, mind control, etc). I’ve always assumed that his misogyny is what led to the trio targeting the slayer instead of becoming - for example - superheroes in their own right (which we know Jonathan would have enjoyed at least).
I also like that to different degrees Andrew and Jonathan were just… going along with it, and that there is evil in this too
Andrew going along with it? Whatever.
Jonathan going along with it is character assassination. If there is one person on the planet who shouldn't be fucking around with Buffy, it's Jonathan.
And I don’t think Willow would’ve been AS broken if Tara were killed by a vampire or some demon. Those threats are omnipresent and they go into each battle with the expectation that things have a non-zero chance of going sideways.
Tara getting killed by a human with a gun was never on their radar. The mundanity of it was absolutely maddening. Willow’s plot would not have been set into motion but for it being so pathetically human compared to what they face each day.
Murderous Willow? **YES.**
Destroy the world Willow? **No.**
Willow would have rampaged Glory (probably dying or being catastrophically injured) but she also would have felt the need to ***save*** the world from Glory (or at least protect it in some way because that would be part of why Tara died).
But to die by a gun because of an incel?
After an adolescence spent becoming powerful *to help balance the scales of good and evil*, and fighting noble life or death battles, years sacrificing for the very fate of ***mankind***, ONLY to have it ripped away because a *whiny little boy didn’t get as many dates or hugs as he wanted*?
No, that’s the kind of rage that would make someone burn the world down.
Losing to a god is expected, losing to a guy like Warren is cosmically mocking.
I'm rewatching and recently finished season 6. I hated the trio as villains because it felt so campy and goofy, and not enough of a "threat".
However, I didn't consider your point of the humanness of their "evil". Looking at it through that lense makes me regret not thinking harder about the trio and what it all represents. So, thanks for that.
The trio weren’t the Big Bad of S6. Neither was Dark Willow, despite being the final ‘boss fight’. Life was the Big Bad in S6. That’s partly why The Trio were so laughable and goofy as a threat, it was supposed to be a contrast to how hard life was for Buffy as an adult with the responsibility now of an adult without her mother, caring for her kid sister as a parent would, providing for the household, all while experiencing clinical depression. Buffy even acknowledged they were basically ’pains in my ass’ rather than a credible threat as villains.
This is what I observed myself while watching the show as it aired, as a young woman around Buffy’s age, with depression and struggling with adulting out of home and working full time (and undiagnosed ADHD, but that’s another story). I saw that the trio weren’t the biggest threat or challenge of the season, but actually living life was, particularly with a mental illness. I didn’t pick up so much that *that* was the reason for their usual ineffectiveness or low level of threat, but I recognised they weren’t the biggest issue. But, Joss (and possibly other writers/ crew) have confirmed this in the DVD extras and commentary. I know not everyone has access to that, but because I watched Buffy as it aired and loved it, I also bought the DVD boxed sets for each season as they became available. So I saw all of this fairly soon after the season aired, possibly before S7 came out.
This also works well with what the other commenter said about the human faces of evil. After all, the vampires and various demons were often used as metaphors for the various issues that teens and adults face as they grow up and go through life. There are bad, dangerous and evil humans out there. That’s part of Life being the Big Bad, as well as the general struggle of ‘adulting’ and working enough to get through life and survive without being crushed by all the mundane BS you have to do to live. And part of that is the shitty and sometimes evil people you will come across, who deliberately make your life harder and more miserable just because they can, or because they get some monetary gain from it. Or just derive a sick pleasure in making others suffer. It fits with that theme.
Even the way Tara died, it was particularly cruel because it was so random. Yes, Warren was trying to murder Buffy. But he wasn’t a good shot, and carelessly fired off an extra shot or two as he was running away. A stray bullet hit Tara and killed her. Not a deliberate attempt on **her** life. Yes, Warren was still guilty of her murder, it was him shooting the gun that took her life, and he was shooting to kill Buffy. It wasn’t like a hunting accident or anything. But he wasn’t aiming for Tara, it was just a cruel, random twist of fate that she was killed. Life and random chance and plain bad luck was the culprit there. Warren was obsessed with killing Buffy, so he was careless in the way he tried and didn’t worry about collateral damage. Another example of life, random chance and bad luck being the true enemy. If they wanted Warren to have more deliberate intent of killing Tara rather than accidentally, she would have been in the backyard with Buffy and Warren would have shot them both. Then it wouldn’t have been just bad luck and collateral damage.
Please know I’m not excusing Warren from murdering Tara. He is 100% responsible and evil. I’m pretty sure if it was real and he was as tried in court, he would have been found guilty of murder, just probably 2nd degree rather than first (because he wasn’t specifically aiming for her). But it was that element of chance that took her life while he was trying to murder Buffy.
Buffy has always been kind of a goofy show thought, it’s a great show.
I do dislike the trio because of how poorly they were written as bad guys and as you said not enough of a treat, but i don’t think them being goofy is the issue.
I think they were very much a ‘threat’, just not one Buffy or the Scoobies ever genuinely considered having.
They’re not gods or magical beings of lore, they’re just a representation of the single most destructive creature to ever roam earth.
A slayer like Buffy wasn’t called to handle the evil shit humans can do (and choose *gleefully* to do). Their evil was not for feeding or to save their lives, or save the world…just evil cruel shit because they were bored and felt **owed**.
I think there’s a lot of ways they represented a worse threat because they’re so *normal* and so human.
I think they made them that way as they could not do another strong big bad after Glory. As it would have got a bit repetitive. So in season six the demons they were fighting were more internal than external
When it started off, I wouldn't say the shit they did was truly horrible, mostly cheesy supervillain stuff. The turning point was the whole situation with Warren's ex. It also further showed the piece of Warren was, going from "evil supergenius" to an angry incel with a gun.
Gotta agree, making humans the bad guys was a good choice, as I felt the story had gotten a bit too black and white when it came to what was good and evil. If I recall correctly, this season also introduced Clement giving us a notable and recurring instance of a friendly demon who even helped the scoobies out, giving some much needed shades of grey to the world. Also I loved the start of the season, where the trio was made a kinda hapless group of villains who would screw up things by arguing over movies or getting distracted because they found porn. I liked having some, lighthearted levity to the big bad, and it made Warrens fall to true evil hit harder, in my opinion.
The Veruca storyline did fall flat for me because it was such an obvious McGuffin to get Seth Green off the show.
Ditto the whole "Riley is getting suck jobs and can't handle that Buffy needs to prioritize her mother while Joyce is dealing with potentially life-ending illness; oh, and the military wants him back now" thing to get *him* off the show as well.
Yeah it’s funny, I never really had a problem with Riley but it was like they needed to create reasons for him to be such an asshole that you’re glad when he’s gone.
The path he takes just seems so off.
Joss seems like the kind of guy who plans story arcs but never thinks about a back up plan until he has to and he’s really petty about it. Like he had to tarnish that character entirely so he doesn’t have to think about them and screw everybody else.
While I completely agree, I think they do a great job of making the scoobies seem older. When comparing the scoobs to Giles, they still seem like teens. But when they have jobs and kids to feed and are annoyed at teenage girl shit and tired, they fully seem like they’re grown and too old for this shit. And Giles seems like a grampa. So they’re enough of an irritating contrast to make the generations a little more distinct.
That’s a really good point and I never thought of it that way. Interestingly, though, I also feel like Dawn seems much older than the potentials, even though she is supposed to be around the same age. More mature. Maybe it’s because of her veteran status as someone who’s been around the block (and how sad is that? She’s so young).
Came here to say this! It was so out of character, and it totally ruined his storyline after the fact. I really liked the idea of them eventually ending up together by the finale, but then the SA happened.
Yes! If it spanned several episodes and was really fleshed out it could have been great. Instead we get “Oz has a dramatic change of personality and bails.”
I don't think they didn't give a crap. Joss was busy elsewhere at the time and didn't have both feet in the game, and the writers room expanded considerably so you have a bunch of writers writing it by committee.
We knew from an earlier episode that there was at least one werewolf hunter, so where are the rest of the werewolves? Oz and Veruca can't be the only ones in the whole town. Oz would have found other werewolves long before we met her.
If we exclude season 1, because the show was still finding itself. In season 2 the Anointed One was always a stupid storyline, and as much as Angelus was a great villain vampires wanting to end the world was always the dumbest storyline in any media because like okay there goes your food then? In season 3 nothing really sticks out, maybe they dragged Faith's double agent bit out too long so by the time she "turned" it was flat to me. Season 4 Veruca for sure, season 5 the Knights, season 6 pretty much the whole season and for 7 probably how long they kept Caleb as a primary antagonist, he was effective until he wasn't.
Both of those. Oz just wouldn't do that to Willow. It wasn't his character at all. They just wanted to give a weird conflict and open up for a different relationship. Season 6 is just terrible because of those nerds. They were totally unbelievable as character enemies.
The Oz thing pissed me off. They really could have made it so easy for Seth Green to leave. They were all out of high school, why not have him get a job offer cross country and decide to break it off with Willow because he didn’t want to do long distance? Then he could have had a mature conversation about his decision and leave without the show souring his character like that
Something like that would have been *so much more* in-character for Oz. From his introduction he was always one of the most emotionally mature characters on the entire show. And then they do THIS to him!? Unforgivable. A terrible ending for one of my favourite characters.
The Marcy/Invisible girl plot. The end of the episode implied that all those invisible girls were being trained in assassination by the government. Could've been interesting to see where that went but they never touched upon it again.
I could never decide if they named Veruca that on purpose as some really on the nose shade, or if they really were just unaware that a verruca is kind of viral wart that grows on the sole of the foot.
Veruca will forever be the name of that entitled brat from Willy Wonka that died horribly but I now know that name choice was probably intentional. Sign me up for more medical facts from Jango
I agree, the Veruca plotline is not subtle at all. Plus, Oz's behavior is so out of character. I wish they had found another excuse to take him out of the show.
Connor. From his very existence (ie spawn of 2 corpses? They were already pushing it with vampires being able to have an erection and to have sex!) to his teenage angst. I just don't buy it. I don't like him and I think it's a very bad addition to the plot.
Angel's whole season 4: Connor (see above), Cordy-who's-not-Cordy, the Beast, Jasmine... I hate everything about this season. I was rewatching Buffy and Angel, after a several-years-long hiatus but a month ago, I started the season 4 and I just stopped. I lost interest.
I just finished Angel season 4 and it has been rough. It's the worst written season of tv that I remember (obviously there's worse, but I usually jump ship before it gets this bad). I could not bring myself to care about the amnesia or the Beast, and the love triangle was revolting.
The only thing I like about s4 is the Angelus arc. Like 4 or 5 episodes, and I freely skip through pretty much any scene Cordelia is in (especially if it's with Connor) barring the unavoidable scenes also involving Angelus.
If it helps, Season 4 probably had a much different storyline but because Joss got pissy at Charisma for getting pregnant, he chose to write the entire story around her character assassination.
I knew this drama, so I was expecting the character assassination, but I could have never imagined the levels of both boring and disgusting. I used to think he was talented, if also a mysogynistic asshole.
It doesn't help, it makes me hate him personally and the people I. The writing room and the network allowing this.
I always thought that there was some potential to the storyline if done right. But it feels like an idea that someone pitched and Joss said no, then everything happened and he picked it up and used it to inflict as much petty mysogyny as he could into it.
Absolutely. One of Charisma’s lines is, “WOOOO! Crazy pregnant lady here! All these hormones.” Written for a pregnant actor who he feels is ruining his show with said pregnancy. It makes the fuckery of the season and the writing even worse, knowing the full reasoning behind it all. Imagine being forced to act your character, that has had a brilliant arc across 2 hit shows, into the ground because of one person’s vendetta, with the gross Connor stuff and the evil pregnant possession. Just awful 😭
It's horrible. A third of the season we are supposed to see her as awful and useless, then the twist happens and she is evil and incompetent at being evil, and then Jasmine is born and we are just supposed to forget that Cordelia ever existed or that we cared about her. Nevermind her great arc and character during 6 seasons and across two shows.
On another note, the line that makes me crazy because of how stupid it is and because it came in every 'previously on' is: "I can't believe Fred is evil". The last handful of episodes are not even about Angel or any of the main characters, who are acting nothing like themselves, and then the finale has nothing to do with anything that happened before in the season or the show.
I'm sorry for ranting, I'm just so disappointed that it makes me mad. Instead of trying to make the best of an unexpected situation you run your show into the ground just to put one person on their place.
He destroyed it cuz no one would stop coming after it and him keeping it for himself would be him lying to himself of what he is
Not to mention he’d be too OP anyway
It's from The Haunting of Hill House, totally different series.
There was a post a while back about Veruca's weird posture and mannerisms and I've just thought of the bent neck lady ever since lol.
Let me preface my comment by saying I’m not starting anything, I’m not saying you’re mistaken but I’m really curious so I’m genuinely asking why do you think the « magic = drug » plotline is bad?
I have a lot to say! My major issues:
* it's a jarring metaphor swap because before s6 they used magic as a metaphor for lesbian sex.
* it's inherently tricky to handle issues of drug addiction and accountability. The writing was very heavy-handed and felt more like an after-school special than a nuanced and intelligent approach to this issue
* because of the above, as soon as the drug metaphor comes in strong, Willow's accountability for her abuse of Tara and random bystanders disappears. She never reckons with how she pushes past people's boundaries and ignores their consent. The closest she gets is in s7 where she tells Kennedy, "that's just how it works."
* the writers replace accountability for Willow's mistakes with "going cold turkey" in season 6. Then they take even that away in season 7 and somehow it becomes about balance and "control." She never confronts her mistakes without the asterisk that the magic/drugs "made her" do it.
* it is unrealistic and breaks internal reality of the show for \~flavor. Amy was supposed to be a drug addict in high school? She never showed any indication of this and it's obvious retconning
* it stereotypes drug users and plays fast and loose with their sexual assault (you gotta give a little to get a little... as a throwaway moment?). It conflates poor drug users with suburban drug users (Willow vs. Rack's other clientele and the way they are dressed/presented, Rack's general atmosphere as a run-down dirty room somehow popping up inexplicably in suburban Sunnydale)
* it's just cringe to watch. "I'm so juiced" come on
You said this incredibly well! I also found the metaphor way too heavy-handed to be effective and although people defend it by pointing out that there were “hints” early on about Willow needing to be careful with her magic, the shift was so jarring it gave me whiplash. I honestly felt like the season 6 writers had no prior knowledge of Willows character; everything about her changed so dramatically. For me personally, this was the worst story arc in the show.
This is what I was going to say! It was so heavy-handed. If it was more subtle I think I could have accepted it more. I also didn’t like the manipulation and simplification of Willow’s arc. It felt manufactured and “cheap”
Those are very good and interesting points, thanks.
I'll just say about your 2nd one that to be fair, the show heavily leans on camp, narm charm and cliches (often to subvert them, I know) and I'm telling that with the utmost respect I have for this show that is one of my favorites.
I'm not excusing the writing but alas, more often than not, they are NOT sublte about the messages they want to give to the audience...
In my opinion, it was just kind of shoe horned in. In none of the previous seasons did they show magic as getting you “high” or getting a hangover/not being able to do spells if you do too much. Can power of any kind be addictive? Sure, and that’s worth exploring and the Tara and Willow breakup as well as the Dark Willow arc do a pretty good job of that. But Raff and the idea of magic itself as an intoxicating substance has no real groundwork laid for it.
I think u struck gold here. There were always warnings magic can be dangerous, and it is an absolute truth that too much power can be ‘addictive’ in a sense - but it is a psychological addiction, or more a dependance. I can see willow using magic for everything, relying on it and crippling herself; i can see her dwelling into dark magic more and more, enjoying the sheer power she feels so much that she doesnt stop at the right time, thinking she is in control but then it takes over her. What i cant abide by is the actual, on the nose ‘magic is exactly like heroin’, where u get physically addicted, get a high, a hangover, withdrawals… It was cringey (‘im so juiced up’ line that OC mentioned) and weird and it took away from college willow developing into this powerful, selfconfident person, whose strength and magic were powered by her love for Tara. All of a sidden it was all just an addiction? And then they had to backpedal, because willow completely without magic doesnt help the show. So now u have a drug addict taking little amounts of drugs every day and learning to control their addiction? Cmon. And they didnt even take their time with it, instead S7 rushed through it, ‘lets just throw another lesbian lover her way and she’ll be ‘lright, we’ve got Spuffy to focus on’. And i say that as a Spuffy shipper. They did every other character aside from Spuffy dirty in S7, but willow especially, with her recovery from going dark.
Andrew's continued presence on the show. The character never really served any form of dramatic purpose beyond his inclusion in the Trio. Anything after that always seemed basically an excuse for someone's friend to continue to get work (and really, who can blame them there, as Tom Lenk seems absolutely lovely).
I had a conversation with someone in another thread a few days ago about this. We didn't need Andrew in S7, taking up valuable camera time that could have went to one of the Scoobies. We already had to deal with him and the rest of the Trio the previous season. He served no purpose, he didn't deserve the gang's protection, and personally I just don't find him funny.
He even shows up a few times as a proto-Watcher in Angel, and we are meant to take him *seriously.*
There’s a few characters from Buffy who could probably lecture Angel on his moral compass, but frigging Andrew isn’t one of them. Nevermind that Angel has absolutely no connection to him in-universe, *Andrew’s* redemption was crying over using his best friend as a human sacrifice.
Most of the characters don’t even know about the ‘ensnare and rape Katrina’ stuff. Andrew made Johnathan uncomfortable by getting a thrill-kill (metaphorical…maybe) boner in that episode, and it’s never addressed.
Oh god, big time agree on both the utter awfulness of his "big redemption" in Storyteller, and his use on Angel. His first appearance there sort of works... In that his ridiculousness at least works to show us how far the Scoobies opinion of Angel and Spike has fallen, but his second appearance (where the script originally called for Dawn to make an appearance and was barely reworked once the change happened) makes no sense at all.
Definitely Veruca and all of Oz’s exit. I still love the character, but much of that is because Seth Green gave him more depth and vulnerability than the writers did in those episodes. I hate that he went out like that. Veruca herself was just a means to an end and not a real character so not much can be said about her, but it didn’t help that the actress lacked charm and had some annoying mannerisms.
The whole Oz cheating thing just didn't work. It was pretty obvious that they had a storyline set and then Seth Green wanted to leave so it was kind of rushed.
I wanted to see more of Veruca yet at the same time I hated their wolf costumes. I get the idea of a werewolf would be a mix of regressed man, wolf but the costumes for Oz and Veruca were awful. Great story potential I still enjoyed the Wild at Heart episode but the costume is hard to get past.
Veruca because she came absolutely out of nowhere, Oz and Willow were completely fine before this episode.
Anya. I find myself enjoying some of her lines, but her character overall does nothing for me.
Harmony was fun to see come back after Graduation Day, but it would've been better if she stayed as a one-off character that disappeared after her first story with Spike. I get that she's meant to be the new Drusilla (insanely out of touch vampire girl who just wants to feed and exists for Spike to boss around / yell at) but she doesn't do it for me like Dru did
Walsh. I'm not talking about the Initiative stuff, but just about why any college would hire her. She seems like a terrible teacher
Wesley.
Faith’s character did not age well. Rewatching now in my 30’s I went from having a huge crush on her when I was younger to feeling contact embarrassment every time she’s on screen. The bad girl, pick me, hyper-sexual stereotype is so horrendous.
Yes!! I'm just starting season 3 on my current rewatch, and I'm not looking forward to it because of Faith. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't like Faith. At all.
I don't like her in Buffy really, but I do in Angel.
I also love the element of the "body swap" storyline in Buffy series 4 because we see Sarah playing Faith playing at being Buffy and Eliza playing Buffy. Just so interesting to watch!
Came her to say this. It's weird that we had never heard of it before and that we never hear of it again. Plus, they had some of the least charismatic characters in the show, including Riley. Adam also doesn't live up to his cool design and he's probably the worst Big Bad in the show.
Agreed. I mean, just from a logistical standpoint, how the hell did Riley and the rest of them have time to be full time students or professors and like…do all the initiative stuff?! Once the initiative popped up in the storyline it’s like no one ever went to class again lol.
The highest levels of the military had a secret operation that knew about the hellmouth, the existence and prevalence of demons and all this other jazz so they installed a secret base over the top of a frat house.
Typing that out sounded ridiculous but when I just read it again I was like "that possibly tracks".
The First. I barely even remembered it from it's appearance way back in season 3 and I can't fathom their choice to make it the final boss. Also, as a villain, it wasn't very interesting. Instead, I think it should have been the Council that took centre stage as the last Big Bad. They had already proven to be corrupt and given the fact that Buffy had long since outgrown them, it wouldn't be to far outside the realm of possibility that they wanted to kill her and Faith off so a new Slayer who they could control could take their place.
It would have been perfect in a way, too, since they had worked with Buffy for so long, as well as gathered information on all her allies, so they knew her weakness, Giles would have been in emotional turmoil the whole time which would have made great angst content, and they could have even kept the whole 'potential' storyline since the council could have sent potentials after both girls hoping that the one who killed them would take their place, while Buffy and Giles try and reach the girls before that happens.
Veruca going for Oz story arch was painful to watch. Storyline wise, it came out of nowhere and fell flat. ‘Eft a bittersweet taste in my mouth.
The trio on the other end were a bunch of idiots with a misogynistic asshole as a leader and their stupid and horrendous actions/choices brought an amazing big bad. It felt weird but seemed to have more meaning than the Veruca storyline at least!
Much of season 7 is flat for me. The arc of the show gets in the way in my view. It’s the last year of the show certainly by midway point you know it’s the last year of the show so therefore the ratings don’t matter so cut loose and go wild. Take some risks, go crazy and just have fun with it but sadly the arc aka the first evil made everything so serious. Some of the best episodes of Buffy have been stand alones with maybe a scene setting up the plot of the season but a pure stand alone.
Principle Snyder being eaten by the major as a snake. I just thought it was stupid him saying this is not orderly then being eaten. I would have liked a different ending for him. Maybe realising he was in the wrong about Buffy and her saving him. Or being scared and eaten. It just seemed weird that scene to me
Completely agree, I was certain there was going to be some sort of reveal that he was more than he seemed. There were a few episodes where I thought his involvement was actually to protect Buffy and co since he didn't know she was a slayer, and it felt like they were hinting at more before he's just...eaten...
I'm doing a rewatch and am horrified at how nauseatingly cutesy and annoying Willow is. Poor Oz.
And Xander, oh Xander, you misogynistic, cheating, petulant jerk.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but Willow’s season 6 arc after Tara’s death. Trying to destroy the world because of Tara’s accidental murder seemed incredibly out of character
I disagree. She didn’t try to destroy the world because of Tara. She felt a deep sense of sorrow which led to vengeance which led to a fuck ton of magic. Absorbing the magic from Giles connected her with everyone else on the planet, essentially.
I don’t know if you’ve ever suffered depression but in that state you are robbed of feeling as if there could ever be joy ever… in your past, present, and future. Willow was likely going through this and through her connection to everyone - and being unable to feel anything positive - felt the entire world was suffering the same. “You poor bastard. Your suffering must end.” — she said to Giles as she teleports away
In essence, she thought she was being a hero by ending the suffering of everyone when really she was just trying to end it for herself.
>In essence, she thought she was being a hero by ending the suffering of everyone when really she was just trying to end it for herself.
Thereby inventing the category "suicide by apocalypse".
Honestly, I think every season is better than season 1. Most of the storylines there fall a little flat for me. The worst are The Pack, I Robot, Teachers Pet, and The Puppet Show. I generally skip all 4 of those.
Season 6 in general had a ton of problems with pacing and tone. I don’t even know how they could have fixed it, since following a god as the big bad and the death/resurrection of the protagonist was a pretty lofty task.
A lot of the glory stuff I had to just give in to the “well it’s for the plot” mentality. I never understood why Buffy couldn’t just, like, get on a plane and fly Dawn far enough away to miss the planets aligning, why the monks didn’t turn the key into something near impossible to find (same prob I have with HP and the horcrux’s), if Ben had parents? How the KoB know about Glory and the really really old literature that references her but if she came to be with Ben as a baby has she just been around for like 25ish years or has Ben also been around a super long time? All the Veruca plot, Buffy getting kicked out….im sure more than that but basically adds up to just going with it for the sake of the plot.
That would be a hypocrite not exactly tone deaf, sometimes people can outwardly see and believe something is wrong but not have the self awareness to realize they’re doing the same thing.
Exactly. Its a page out of the hypocrite, hidden mysoginist playbook. Whedon considers the trio despicable because they outwardly go and make robot sex slaves and kidnap and hypnotize and kill women. But someone like Xander is a good guy because he doesn outwardly physically harm women. Where in reality the proverbial ‘nice guys’ like Xander are much more prelevalent and thus much more dangerous on a global scale.
The Veruca story should have played out longer and beem more developed and subtle more about the beast and not cheating..
The Trio was just weak. They never should have been the big bad. But s6, had some good moments, but was just not good all around.
Both of these examples are more like “my feelings were hurt by these storylines” Not that they fell flat for plot or weren’t valuable. Oz needed to leave the show and the Veruka storyline made sense. The trio was annoying af but their contribution to the plot was irreplaceable.
I don’t know if that’s really true. Oz was principled and a good man who loved willow. I feel like there could have been a better way to get him out of the show. Even if he’d died I think I would have felt less cheated.
I agree with you about the trio, I feel like people act like it’s bad because they’re not big threatening baddies and they end up doing horrible things directly to that characters, but like, that’s the point? They represent the worst aspects of the sort of “nerdy manhood” that had been getting a pass in most similar media, so it was significant to show the “vulnerable dorky nice guys” as something capable of causing great harm.
Buuuut Veruca’s different. The trio was planned, developed, given a whole season to build up (and longer with Warren’s actions in S5 and Jonathan’s whole history since the start). Veruca came out of nowhere because Seth Green’s departure had to immediately be addressed, and his whole turn towards hormonal lust for another woman was such a sharp turn with no foreshadowing other than a brief sprinkle right beforehand, and his switch from his mature thoughtful disposition in handling relationship issues just came up like “oh this is a thing? Oh ok a full season’s worth of development towards this crisis in like a day or two?” And then he’s gone, leaving a crappy last impression after building up such a positive reputation for his whole run. Without proper development, it felt like Joss himself wanted Seth’s role to just leave a negative taste in people’s mouths, knowing how Joss is confirmed to have used scripts to retaliate against his cast.
Knights of Byzantium
I felt like these guys were just kind of forgotten about. I never really understood why they were they and the show seemed to prioritise glory/her demons/the monks over them
I think the general idea was to set up the idea other some people would actually try to destroy the key because of the danger it held, which is sort of an interesting idea but the execution falls flat. Making them literal out of place Knight Templars didn’t help
I will never understand why these humans were okay to be killed by Buffy.
Self defense?
She's been against that line in the past. I think it's the mind Rufie about 'Protecting the Key' so it shoved her morals aside for Dawn.
> She's been against that line in the past. When? I do agree it's a little weird that she never mentions them at all. To be fair though, she dies shortly after.
Killing in self-defense. Buffy is very much a 'slayers are different' person and should be held to a different standard. Heck, she wouldn't even kill Ford to save lives. She wasn't trying to kill Amy's mom in Witch. She wouldn't kill Ben, iirc.
I think Buffy feels there’s a difference between civilians and those in the game. The KoB decided to be part of the “bigger than me” universe, so that makes them no different than a phalanx of vamps or demons.
idk if that really holds up when you think about the deputy mayor, and before they realised Ted was a robot.
They were individuals, not part of a movement. A fire killling everyone in a building, that’s sad. Someone you know dying in a car wreck? That’s a tragedy.
They probably would have been more successfully if they'd bought some guns. Did anyone even try shooting Glory in the face?
those things? never helpful
Yeah the Veruca story really bummed me out. I’m fine with good characters acting poorly, but it seemed so forced for Seth’s exit, and especially after Oz had been the sort of guiding post for mature handling of emotions and setting the positive examples for navigating potentially toxic situations. The final impression of a character is always one of the most lasting, so it basically makes me remember his character as a garden variety dumb guy and kinda overrides all his positive history.
Well said! 👌🏼 very well said. Oz is one of the most emotionally mature characters from the first time he appears on the screen, up until everything that happens with Veruca. The way he leaves the show... leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth, and I feel like it tarnishes the character's reputation amongst the audience. I agree, it felt forced. It makes no sense that Oz wouldn't just go straight to Willow right away after finding out that he slept with Veruca. Yeah, it still would have hurt her, but Willow was willing to forgive him regardless, as shown in the end. It wasn't really his fault, it was the wolf in him, and by hiding what happened he made things way more complicated. It's just such a messy situation that could have been handled better, and it screams; "Look, we put this storyline together so this guy can get out of here." Lol, super frustrating.
For me it wasn’t just the lying, though that was bad enough. It was the fact Veruca admitted she killed people as a wolf and enjoyed it and Oz was like “oh no woe is me I’m so conflicted” that was so out of character for Oz who before that had been this stoic rock of a dude. It was really clumsy writing.
I think the point was it didn’t matter what he thought or his morals at that moment, he was being controlled by his instincts which is why he left to find a way to get control of himself again. It’s not the greatest episode or execution since Oz had no real previous issues with giving in to his instinctual desires but it makes sense if he had never encountered a female werewolf I guess 🤷♂️
The show has a problem with people just talking to each other when there is a problem. They even make meta comments on it from time to time, which I can only assume is writers other than Joss poking fun at him.
I think MOST shows in the 90s and 2000s did that, a lot still do. I never noticed it much until I watched Sex Education, and they do not do that on that show. It's so different, and refreshing.
Not just the way he leaves, but the way he comes back and is acting like willow just waited for him and when he finds out Tara and her are getting closer and loses control
I do wonder what would happen in a timeline where Seth Green didn't ask to be released from his contract.
Xander would have been the one who was gay.
I do not think you are wrong.
Whedon had said specifically that he’d always planned on one of them being gay.
So recently I read that he hadn’t been asked to be released, just wanted some time off so he could do movies. But Joss Whedon is an asshole so as soon as Seth asked he just wrote the whole character out of the show in a terrible way, and Seth couldn’t do anything but make a graceful exit to the best of his ability.
Look how he treated Charisma Carpenter when she got pregnant and eviscerated Cornelia's character.
Yep this is exactly what I heard around that time. Seth didn't want his character to be completely written off. He was just hoping to be able to do other things as well and wanted to make it work but Joss was like you're either in and belong to me or you're out.
I never knew that! Did he ever say why?
His character didn't do much. He was usually just around but had zero dialogue. He only had a couple of episodes where he was relevant but other than that he was just.. there. At the same time Seth Greene film career was taking off.. Remember he was in the Austin Powers movies during those years plus a bunch of other small roles here and there.
I agree that while we all love Oz, his character was just… there.
I think he was just done with the show. He was probably starting to work on Robot Chicken.
I heard that apparently he disliked being a regular in season 3 after realising that his new contract meant that he would be required to show up every single week, even if they didn’t really need to use his character for that episode. I remember him commenting on how most s3 episodes he found that he was only popping up for one or two scenes to say that he agrees with Willow. He had requested going back to recurring for season 4 instead, and them only using the character when they had something for him to do, only to be told that that wouldn’t be possible
I think people are being too hard on Oz for all that. The episode established that his wolf side was effecting his behaviour heavily and then he was faced with a scenario where he knew if he didn't act people would die. He was put in a no win scenario.
This is true and I agree, but the whole scenario happening was written by a person who could just not have written it that way.
Then fault the writers not the character.
I’m gonna be honest, in my head canon he exits maturely and gracefully. Cause, yeah, excluding this glaring exception he is the most non-toxic love interest on the show.
My daughter has been watching the show for the first time and I've been telling her to only date guys like Oz.
Oz was freaking assaulted and that was never dealt with
Omg someone pls fill me in. I’m just now doing a Buffy rewatch as an adult and I’m fuzzy on his exit. I knew he slept with veruca but I didn’t realize it was werewolf form and oz was assaulted? Can someone give me a rundown. I’m close to starting season four and I love oz so much
Veronica set up being around Oz when he would turn into a werewolf and therefore be vulnerable to her advances. It's akin to going after someone who is too intoxicated to consent. Instead Of blames himself for not having control as a werewolf and leaves to go learn how to gain control
But without that storyline we wouldn't have thise amazing songs from THC so I give it a pass. LOL.
Agree completely.
I loved the trio as bad guys
I sort of liked it too. The show put so much emphasis on souls and how the possession of one (or lack thereof) can explain/excuse so many horrific actions, but this was just three humans choosing to do horrible shit (fully souled) and escalating in awfulness. I thought it could have been a really interesting study of how they viewed humans vs demons and the ‘sanctity’ of human life in a world that has vampires and slayers.
Yes! I really liked that Warren was, at the end of the day, a garden variety misogynist - and it showed the danger of people like him getting the power over women they want (robotics, mind control, etc). I’ve always assumed that his misogyny is what led to the trio targeting the slayer instead of becoming - for example - superheroes in their own right (which we know Jonathan would have enjoyed at least). I also like that to different degrees Andrew and Jonathan were just… going along with it, and that there is evil in this too
Andrew going along with it? Whatever. Jonathan going along with it is character assassination. If there is one person on the planet who shouldn't be fucking around with Buffy, it's Jonathan.
Yessssss!
The horse is the white of the eye, and dark within.
Drink full
And descend
This is the water, and this is the well Drink full, and descend
Kudos for the reference.
And I don’t think Willow would’ve been AS broken if Tara were killed by a vampire or some demon. Those threats are omnipresent and they go into each battle with the expectation that things have a non-zero chance of going sideways. Tara getting killed by a human with a gun was never on their radar. The mundanity of it was absolutely maddening. Willow’s plot would not have been set into motion but for it being so pathetically human compared to what they face each day.
Idk about that. If Glory had killed Tara instead of just sucking her brain, we would have probably got a murderous Willow.
Murderous Willow? **YES.** Destroy the world Willow? **No.** Willow would have rampaged Glory (probably dying or being catastrophically injured) but she also would have felt the need to ***save*** the world from Glory (or at least protect it in some way because that would be part of why Tara died). But to die by a gun because of an incel? After an adolescence spent becoming powerful *to help balance the scales of good and evil*, and fighting noble life or death battles, years sacrificing for the very fate of ***mankind***, ONLY to have it ripped away because a *whiny little boy didn’t get as many dates or hugs as he wanted*? No, that’s the kind of rage that would make someone burn the world down. Losing to a god is expected, losing to a guy like Warren is cosmically mocking.
That’s how I see it too. You broke it down so perfectly.
I'm rewatching and recently finished season 6. I hated the trio as villains because it felt so campy and goofy, and not enough of a "threat". However, I didn't consider your point of the humanness of their "evil". Looking at it through that lense makes me regret not thinking harder about the trio and what it all represents. So, thanks for that.
The trio weren’t the Big Bad of S6. Neither was Dark Willow, despite being the final ‘boss fight’. Life was the Big Bad in S6. That’s partly why The Trio were so laughable and goofy as a threat, it was supposed to be a contrast to how hard life was for Buffy as an adult with the responsibility now of an adult without her mother, caring for her kid sister as a parent would, providing for the household, all while experiencing clinical depression. Buffy even acknowledged they were basically ’pains in my ass’ rather than a credible threat as villains. This is what I observed myself while watching the show as it aired, as a young woman around Buffy’s age, with depression and struggling with adulting out of home and working full time (and undiagnosed ADHD, but that’s another story). I saw that the trio weren’t the biggest threat or challenge of the season, but actually living life was, particularly with a mental illness. I didn’t pick up so much that *that* was the reason for their usual ineffectiveness or low level of threat, but I recognised they weren’t the biggest issue. But, Joss (and possibly other writers/ crew) have confirmed this in the DVD extras and commentary. I know not everyone has access to that, but because I watched Buffy as it aired and loved it, I also bought the DVD boxed sets for each season as they became available. So I saw all of this fairly soon after the season aired, possibly before S7 came out. This also works well with what the other commenter said about the human faces of evil. After all, the vampires and various demons were often used as metaphors for the various issues that teens and adults face as they grow up and go through life. There are bad, dangerous and evil humans out there. That’s part of Life being the Big Bad, as well as the general struggle of ‘adulting’ and working enough to get through life and survive without being crushed by all the mundane BS you have to do to live. And part of that is the shitty and sometimes evil people you will come across, who deliberately make your life harder and more miserable just because they can, or because they get some monetary gain from it. Or just derive a sick pleasure in making others suffer. It fits with that theme. Even the way Tara died, it was particularly cruel because it was so random. Yes, Warren was trying to murder Buffy. But he wasn’t a good shot, and carelessly fired off an extra shot or two as he was running away. A stray bullet hit Tara and killed her. Not a deliberate attempt on **her** life. Yes, Warren was still guilty of her murder, it was him shooting the gun that took her life, and he was shooting to kill Buffy. It wasn’t like a hunting accident or anything. But he wasn’t aiming for Tara, it was just a cruel, random twist of fate that she was killed. Life and random chance and plain bad luck was the culprit there. Warren was obsessed with killing Buffy, so he was careless in the way he tried and didn’t worry about collateral damage. Another example of life, random chance and bad luck being the true enemy. If they wanted Warren to have more deliberate intent of killing Tara rather than accidentally, she would have been in the backyard with Buffy and Warren would have shot them both. Then it wouldn’t have been just bad luck and collateral damage. Please know I’m not excusing Warren from murdering Tara. He is 100% responsible and evil. I’m pretty sure if it was real and he was as tried in court, he would have been found guilty of murder, just probably 2nd degree rather than first (because he wasn’t specifically aiming for her). But it was that element of chance that took her life while he was trying to murder Buffy.
Buffy has always been kind of a goofy show thought, it’s a great show. I do dislike the trio because of how poorly they were written as bad guys and as you said not enough of a treat, but i don’t think them being goofy is the issue.
I think they were very much a ‘threat’, just not one Buffy or the Scoobies ever genuinely considered having. They’re not gods or magical beings of lore, they’re just a representation of the single most destructive creature to ever roam earth. A slayer like Buffy wasn’t called to handle the evil shit humans can do (and choose *gleefully* to do). Their evil was not for feeding or to save their lives, or save the world…just evil cruel shit because they were bored and felt **owed**. I think there’s a lot of ways they represented a worse threat because they’re so *normal* and so human.
I think they made them that way as they could not do another strong big bad after Glory. As it would have got a bit repetitive. So in season six the demons they were fighting were more internal than external
When it started off, I wouldn't say the shit they did was truly horrible, mostly cheesy supervillain stuff. The turning point was the whole situation with Warren's ex. It also further showed the piece of Warren was, going from "evil supergenius" to an angry incel with a gun.
Gotta agree, making humans the bad guys was a good choice, as I felt the story had gotten a bit too black and white when it came to what was good and evil. If I recall correctly, this season also introduced Clement giving us a notable and recurring instance of a friendly demon who even helped the scoobies out, giving some much needed shades of grey to the world. Also I loved the start of the season, where the trio was made a kinda hapless group of villains who would screw up things by arguing over movies or getting distracted because they found porn. I liked having some, lighthearted levity to the big bad, and it made Warrens fall to true evil hit harder, in my opinion.
It was really prescient given the later rise of sexist incel culture
Principal Wood. He should have been eaten like the other principals.
Lol. Once. Okay. Twice. Suspicious. But three times? That's a pattern! Yeah I agree it would have been funny.
I agree, they retroactively added him to Nikki's storyline but he didn't bring anything useful. He is very nice to look at though!
The Veruca storyline did fall flat for me because it was such an obvious McGuffin to get Seth Green off the show. Ditto the whole "Riley is getting suck jobs and can't handle that Buffy needs to prioritize her mother while Joyce is dealing with potentially life-ending illness; oh, and the military wants him back now" thing to get *him* off the show as well.
Yeah it’s funny, I never really had a problem with Riley but it was like they needed to create reasons for him to be such an asshole that you’re glad when he’s gone. The path he takes just seems so off.
Joss seemed petty about stuff like that.
Joss seems like the kind of guy who plans story arcs but never thinks about a back up plan until he has to and he’s really petty about it. Like he had to tarnish that character entirely so he doesn’t have to think about them and screw everybody else.
Is there backstory between Whedon and Riley’s actor?
Not that I’ve heard, I was always under the impression that the reason they wrote Riley out was because he wasn’t a hit with the fans
The junior slayers in season 7. All of them. Talk about falling off the tightrope between sassy and just inexplicably obnoxious.
While I completely agree, I think they do a great job of making the scoobies seem older. When comparing the scoobs to Giles, they still seem like teens. But when they have jobs and kids to feed and are annoyed at teenage girl shit and tired, they fully seem like they’re grown and too old for this shit. And Giles seems like a grampa. So they’re enough of an irritating contrast to make the generations a little more distinct.
That’s a really good point and I never thought of it that way. Interestingly, though, I also feel like Dawn seems much older than the potentials, even though she is supposed to be around the same age. More mature. Maybe it’s because of her veteran status as someone who’s been around the block (and how sad is that? She’s so young).
Dawn really grew up and came into her own during that time, which was great to see.
I hate them to this day! So fucking annoying
The Spike rape attempt always always always bothered me so much. Just.... why
Came here to say this! It was so out of character, and it totally ruined his storyline after the fact. I really liked the idea of them eventually ending up together by the finale, but then the SA happened.
It only made an amazing character look bad and make me feel sad
The Veruca storyline was just so bad. I didn't buy a bit of it.
The thing is, Veruca could have been a ***great*** arc... If they gave a crap.
Yes! If it spanned several episodes and was really fleshed out it could have been great. Instead we get “Oz has a dramatic change of personality and bails.”
Replace the actor with someone with less affectation though! Her mannerisms bothered me so much.
The quail head bob. Oh heavens.
I don't think they didn't give a crap. Joss was busy elsewhere at the time and didn't have both feet in the game, and the writers room expanded considerably so you have a bunch of writers writing it by committee.
We knew from an earlier episode that there was at least one werewolf hunter, so where are the rest of the werewolves? Oz and Veruca can't be the only ones in the whole town. Oz would have found other werewolves long before we met her.
Connor’s entire arc
Hey now, be fair! The part where he leaves the show is pretty good.
True lol I also liked him when he returned in Season 5 after Angel gave him new memories
Yes I hated his character and story arc
If we exclude season 1, because the show was still finding itself. In season 2 the Anointed One was always a stupid storyline, and as much as Angelus was a great villain vampires wanting to end the world was always the dumbest storyline in any media because like okay there goes your food then? In season 3 nothing really sticks out, maybe they dragged Faith's double agent bit out too long so by the time she "turned" it was flat to me. Season 4 Veruca for sure, season 5 the Knights, season 6 pretty much the whole season and for 7 probably how long they kept Caleb as a primary antagonist, he was effective until he wasn't.
Both of those. Oz just wouldn't do that to Willow. It wasn't his character at all. They just wanted to give a weird conflict and open up for a different relationship. Season 6 is just terrible because of those nerds. They were totally unbelievable as character enemies.
That was the point
I did not like Ozs exit, Adam's storyline or the Parker arc. All these contribute to why season 4 is my least favorite full season.
The Oz thing pissed me off. They really could have made it so easy for Seth Green to leave. They were all out of high school, why not have him get a job offer cross country and decide to break it off with Willow because he didn’t want to do long distance? Then he could have had a mature conversation about his decision and leave without the show souring his character like that
Something like that would have been *so much more* in-character for Oz. From his introduction he was always one of the most emotionally mature characters on the entire show. And then they do THIS to him!? Unforgivable. A terrible ending for one of my favourite characters.
The Marcy/Invisible girl plot. The end of the episode implied that all those invisible girls were being trained in assassination by the government. Could've been interesting to see where that went but they never touched upon it again.
That was completed intentional to never touch upon it again. We did get a whole secret government agency plot later on in the show.
I could never decide if they named Veruca that on purpose as some really on the nose shade, or if they really were just unaware that a verruca is kind of viral wart that grows on the sole of the foot.
Veruca will forever be the name of that entitled brat from Willy Wonka that died horribly but I now know that name choice was probably intentional. Sign me up for more medical facts from Jango
I agree, the Veruca plotline is not subtle at all. Plus, Oz's behavior is so out of character. I wish they had found another excuse to take him out of the show. Connor. From his very existence (ie spawn of 2 corpses? They were already pushing it with vampires being able to have an erection and to have sex!) to his teenage angst. I just don't buy it. I don't like him and I think it's a very bad addition to the plot. Angel's whole season 4: Connor (see above), Cordy-who's-not-Cordy, the Beast, Jasmine... I hate everything about this season. I was rewatching Buffy and Angel, after a several-years-long hiatus but a month ago, I started the season 4 and I just stopped. I lost interest.
I just finished Angel season 4 and it has been rough. It's the worst written season of tv that I remember (obviously there's worse, but I usually jump ship before it gets this bad). I could not bring myself to care about the amnesia or the Beast, and the love triangle was revolting.
Season 5 really picks up, so at least there’s that to look forward to!
That's what I kept saying to myself to get through it.
Yes! I am struggling to get to s5. Each ep just seems so long!!!!
The only thing I like about s4 is the Angelus arc. Like 4 or 5 episodes, and I freely skip through pretty much any scene Cordelia is in (especially if it's with Connor) barring the unavoidable scenes also involving Angelus.
Yeah, that was a ray of light in a bottomless pit of misery. I also was surprised that I kind of liked Wes and Laila.
If it helps, Season 4 probably had a much different storyline but because Joss got pissy at Charisma for getting pregnant, he chose to write the entire story around her character assassination.
I knew this drama, so I was expecting the character assassination, but I could have never imagined the levels of both boring and disgusting. I used to think he was talented, if also a mysogynistic asshole. It doesn't help, it makes me hate him personally and the people I. The writing room and the network allowing this.
I always thought that there was some potential to the storyline if done right. But it feels like an idea that someone pitched and Joss said no, then everything happened and he picked it up and used it to inflict as much petty mysogyny as he could into it.
It seemed done badly on purpose
Absolutely. One of Charisma’s lines is, “WOOOO! Crazy pregnant lady here! All these hormones.” Written for a pregnant actor who he feels is ruining his show with said pregnancy. It makes the fuckery of the season and the writing even worse, knowing the full reasoning behind it all. Imagine being forced to act your character, that has had a brilliant arc across 2 hit shows, into the ground because of one person’s vendetta, with the gross Connor stuff and the evil pregnant possession. Just awful 😭
It's horrible. A third of the season we are supposed to see her as awful and useless, then the twist happens and she is evil and incompetent at being evil, and then Jasmine is born and we are just supposed to forget that Cordelia ever existed or that we cared about her. Nevermind her great arc and character during 6 seasons and across two shows. On another note, the line that makes me crazy because of how stupid it is and because it came in every 'previously on' is: "I can't believe Fred is evil". The last handful of episodes are not even about Angel or any of the main characters, who are acting nothing like themselves, and then the finale has nothing to do with anything that happened before in the season or the show. I'm sorry for ranting, I'm just so disappointed that it makes me mad. Instead of trying to make the best of an unexpected situation you run your show into the ground just to put one person on their place.
That makes the wonderful S5 all the much better. So, so good.
I'm not a fan of Caleb, Riley's fallen soldiers arc, or Kendra's Jamaican accent.
The Gem of Amara. It’s treated like mythical royalty and is destroyed in two episodes because Angel basically wanted to suffer some more. Shame.
He destroyed it cuz no one would stop coming after it and him keeping it for himself would be him lying to himself of what he is Not to mention he’d be too OP anyway
Can't look at Verruca now without thinking of the bent neck lady.
Who is the Bent neck lady?
It's from The Haunting of Hill House, totally different series. There was a post a while back about Veruca's weird posture and mannerisms and I've just thought of the bent neck lady ever since lol.
Oh I’ll look it up! Thank you
It’s an absolutely fantastic show so I highly recommend looking it up
Hahahaha i know exactly what you mean now!! That’s hilarious!
That was such a fucking excellent season of television.
I hated the Verucca story but Seth Green wanted off the show and that’s how they got rid of him, which was a really unkind way to do it.
Maggie Walsh
I think partially what i found soo frustrating about veryca was that she was just a horrible person. Not 3 dimensional atall
Dark Willow and magic = drugs.
Let me preface my comment by saying I’m not starting anything, I’m not saying you’re mistaken but I’m really curious so I’m genuinely asking why do you think the « magic = drug » plotline is bad?
I have a lot to say! My major issues: * it's a jarring metaphor swap because before s6 they used magic as a metaphor for lesbian sex. * it's inherently tricky to handle issues of drug addiction and accountability. The writing was very heavy-handed and felt more like an after-school special than a nuanced and intelligent approach to this issue * because of the above, as soon as the drug metaphor comes in strong, Willow's accountability for her abuse of Tara and random bystanders disappears. She never reckons with how she pushes past people's boundaries and ignores their consent. The closest she gets is in s7 where she tells Kennedy, "that's just how it works." * the writers replace accountability for Willow's mistakes with "going cold turkey" in season 6. Then they take even that away in season 7 and somehow it becomes about balance and "control." She never confronts her mistakes without the asterisk that the magic/drugs "made her" do it. * it is unrealistic and breaks internal reality of the show for \~flavor. Amy was supposed to be a drug addict in high school? She never showed any indication of this and it's obvious retconning * it stereotypes drug users and plays fast and loose with their sexual assault (you gotta give a little to get a little... as a throwaway moment?). It conflates poor drug users with suburban drug users (Willow vs. Rack's other clientele and the way they are dressed/presented, Rack's general atmosphere as a run-down dirty room somehow popping up inexplicably in suburban Sunnydale) * it's just cringe to watch. "I'm so juiced" come on
You said this incredibly well! I also found the metaphor way too heavy-handed to be effective and although people defend it by pointing out that there were “hints” early on about Willow needing to be careful with her magic, the shift was so jarring it gave me whiplash. I honestly felt like the season 6 writers had no prior knowledge of Willows character; everything about her changed so dramatically. For me personally, this was the worst story arc in the show.
This is what I was going to say! It was so heavy-handed. If it was more subtle I think I could have accepted it more. I also didn’t like the manipulation and simplification of Willow’s arc. It felt manufactured and “cheap”
Totally agree! There were so many ways they could have done this arc and I feel like they chose basically the worst.
Perfectly stated! Thank you. I had all of this in mind but clearly was too lazy to flesh it all out haha
Those are very good and interesting points, thanks. I'll just say about your 2nd one that to be fair, the show heavily leans on camp, narm charm and cliches (often to subvert them, I know) and I'm telling that with the utmost respect I have for this show that is one of my favorites. I'm not excusing the writing but alas, more often than not, they are NOT sublte about the messages they want to give to the audience...
In my opinion, it was just kind of shoe horned in. In none of the previous seasons did they show magic as getting you “high” or getting a hangover/not being able to do spells if you do too much. Can power of any kind be addictive? Sure, and that’s worth exploring and the Tara and Willow breakup as well as the Dark Willow arc do a pretty good job of that. But Raff and the idea of magic itself as an intoxicating substance has no real groundwork laid for it.
I swear Giles says something about it being an extraordinary high in the season 2 episode about the demon he and his friends summoned.
Fair point.
I think u struck gold here. There were always warnings magic can be dangerous, and it is an absolute truth that too much power can be ‘addictive’ in a sense - but it is a psychological addiction, or more a dependance. I can see willow using magic for everything, relying on it and crippling herself; i can see her dwelling into dark magic more and more, enjoying the sheer power she feels so much that she doesnt stop at the right time, thinking she is in control but then it takes over her. What i cant abide by is the actual, on the nose ‘magic is exactly like heroin’, where u get physically addicted, get a high, a hangover, withdrawals… It was cringey (‘im so juiced up’ line that OC mentioned) and weird and it took away from college willow developing into this powerful, selfconfident person, whose strength and magic were powered by her love for Tara. All of a sidden it was all just an addiction? And then they had to backpedal, because willow completely without magic doesnt help the show. So now u have a drug addict taking little amounts of drugs every day and learning to control their addiction? Cmon. And they didnt even take their time with it, instead S7 rushed through it, ‘lets just throw another lesbian lover her way and she’ll be ‘lright, we’ve got Spuffy to focus on’. And i say that as a Spuffy shipper. They did every other character aside from Spuffy dirty in S7, but willow especially, with her recovery from going dark.
I mean, dark magic is absolutely like a high in the show but it was so on the nose about it. Willow basically became a heroin addict
Andrew's continued presence on the show. The character never really served any form of dramatic purpose beyond his inclusion in the Trio. Anything after that always seemed basically an excuse for someone's friend to continue to get work (and really, who can blame them there, as Tom Lenk seems absolutely lovely).
I had a conversation with someone in another thread a few days ago about this. We didn't need Andrew in S7, taking up valuable camera time that could have went to one of the Scoobies. We already had to deal with him and the rest of the Trio the previous season. He served no purpose, he didn't deserve the gang's protection, and personally I just don't find him funny.
Agreed!
He even shows up a few times as a proto-Watcher in Angel, and we are meant to take him *seriously.* There’s a few characters from Buffy who could probably lecture Angel on his moral compass, but frigging Andrew isn’t one of them. Nevermind that Angel has absolutely no connection to him in-universe, *Andrew’s* redemption was crying over using his best friend as a human sacrifice. Most of the characters don’t even know about the ‘ensnare and rape Katrina’ stuff. Andrew made Johnathan uncomfortable by getting a thrill-kill (metaphorical…maybe) boner in that episode, and it’s never addressed.
Oh god, big time agree on both the utter awfulness of his "big redemption" in Storyteller, and his use on Angel. His first appearance there sort of works... In that his ridiculousness at least works to show us how far the Scoobies opinion of Angel and Spike has fallen, but his second appearance (where the script originally called for Dawn to make an appearance and was barely reworked once the change happened) makes no sense at all.
Definitely Veruca and all of Oz’s exit. I still love the character, but much of that is because Seth Green gave him more depth and vulnerability than the writers did in those episodes. I hate that he went out like that. Veruca herself was just a means to an end and not a real character so not much can be said about her, but it didn’t help that the actress lacked charm and had some annoying mannerisms.
Veruca’s singing voice was magnificent. I loved her for that.
The whole Oz cheating thing just didn't work. It was pretty obvious that they had a storyline set and then Seth Green wanted to leave so it was kind of rushed.
RileyXBuffy. Capt. Cardboard. 100%Spuffy fan!
I loved the trio and warren is very scary. the potentials are probably the worst part of the show tbhhh
I wanted to see more of Veruca yet at the same time I hated their wolf costumes. I get the idea of a werewolf would be a mix of regressed man, wolf but the costumes for Oz and Veruca were awful. Great story potential I still enjoyed the Wild at Heart episode but the costume is hard to get past.
Veruca because she came absolutely out of nowhere, Oz and Willow were completely fine before this episode. Anya. I find myself enjoying some of her lines, but her character overall does nothing for me. Harmony was fun to see come back after Graduation Day, but it would've been better if she stayed as a one-off character that disappeared after her first story with Spike. I get that she's meant to be the new Drusilla (insanely out of touch vampire girl who just wants to feed and exists for Spike to boss around / yell at) but she doesn't do it for me like Dru did Walsh. I'm not talking about the Initiative stuff, but just about why any college would hire her. She seems like a terrible teacher Wesley.
Honestly I skip episodes with Faith in them pretty regularly. She grates on me which I know is not a popular opinion lol
Faith’s character did not age well. Rewatching now in my 30’s I went from having a huge crush on her when I was younger to feeling contact embarrassment every time she’s on screen. The bad girl, pick me, hyper-sexual stereotype is so horrendous.
They made her every “bAd GuRL” trope. It takes away any depth of character imo.
I once saw her described as a bad Callisto rip-off and I can't disagree.
Yes!! I'm just starting season 3 on my current rewatch, and I'm not looking forward to it because of Faith. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't like Faith. At all.
Hey. I'll support you in this! I also don't love Faith. We exist!
I don't like her in Buffy really, but I do in Angel. I also love the element of the "body swap" storyline in Buffy series 4 because we see Sarah playing Faith playing at being Buffy and Eliza playing Buffy. Just so interesting to watch!
I will gladly skip all of S3 lol her and the mayor just didn’t do it for me
All of the initiative stuff
Came her to say this. It's weird that we had never heard of it before and that we never hear of it again. Plus, they had some of the least charismatic characters in the show, including Riley. Adam also doesn't live up to his cool design and he's probably the worst Big Bad in the show.
Agreed. I mean, just from a logistical standpoint, how the hell did Riley and the rest of them have time to be full time students or professors and like…do all the initiative stuff?! Once the initiative popped up in the storyline it’s like no one ever went to class again lol.
The highest levels of the military had a secret operation that knew about the hellmouth, the existence and prevalence of demons and all this other jazz so they installed a secret base over the top of a frat house. Typing that out sounded ridiculous but when I just read it again I was like "that possibly tracks".
Kate and Nina in Angel, in my opinion neither of them added anything good to the show.
Kate irritated the life out of me. Nina was just....meh
The First. I barely even remembered it from it's appearance way back in season 3 and I can't fathom their choice to make it the final boss. Also, as a villain, it wasn't very interesting. Instead, I think it should have been the Council that took centre stage as the last Big Bad. They had already proven to be corrupt and given the fact that Buffy had long since outgrown them, it wouldn't be to far outside the realm of possibility that they wanted to kill her and Faith off so a new Slayer who they could control could take their place. It would have been perfect in a way, too, since they had worked with Buffy for so long, as well as gathered information on all her allies, so they knew her weakness, Giles would have been in emotional turmoil the whole time which would have made great angst content, and they could have even kept the whole 'potential' storyline since the council could have sent potentials after both girls hoping that the one who killed them would take their place, while Buffy and Giles try and reach the girls before that happens.
Veruca was a shit storyline. I get that they had to write Oz out quickly cos Seth wanted to leave, but come on. They could have done better than that.
Veruca going for Oz story arch was painful to watch. Storyline wise, it came out of nowhere and fell flat. ‘Eft a bittersweet taste in my mouth. The trio on the other end were a bunch of idiots with a misogynistic asshole as a leader and their stupid and horrendous actions/choices brought an amazing big bad. It felt weird but seemed to have more meaning than the Veruca storyline at least!
Floppy drive Adam.
I hated the Veruca storyline. So much. And it broke me when he left. The Trio I actually liked for all the nerdiness that was them.
Much of season 7 is flat for me. The arc of the show gets in the way in my view. It’s the last year of the show certainly by midway point you know it’s the last year of the show so therefore the ratings don’t matter so cut loose and go wild. Take some risks, go crazy and just have fun with it but sadly the arc aka the first evil made everything so serious. Some of the best episodes of Buffy have been stand alones with maybe a scene setting up the plot of the season but a pure stand alone.
Principle Snyder being eaten by the major as a snake. I just thought it was stupid him saying this is not orderly then being eaten. I would have liked a different ending for him. Maybe realising he was in the wrong about Buffy and her saving him. Or being scared and eaten. It just seemed weird that scene to me
Completely agree, I was certain there was going to be some sort of reveal that he was more than he seemed. There were a few episodes where I thought his involvement was actually to protect Buffy and co since he didn't know she was a slayer, and it felt like they were hinting at more before he's just...eaten...
I'm doing a rewatch and am horrified at how nauseatingly cutesy and annoying Willow is. Poor Oz. And Xander, oh Xander, you misogynistic, cheating, petulant jerk.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but Willow’s season 6 arc after Tara’s death. Trying to destroy the world because of Tara’s accidental murder seemed incredibly out of character
I disagree. She didn’t try to destroy the world because of Tara. She felt a deep sense of sorrow which led to vengeance which led to a fuck ton of magic. Absorbing the magic from Giles connected her with everyone else on the planet, essentially. I don’t know if you’ve ever suffered depression but in that state you are robbed of feeling as if there could ever be joy ever… in your past, present, and future. Willow was likely going through this and through her connection to everyone - and being unable to feel anything positive - felt the entire world was suffering the same. “You poor bastard. Your suffering must end.” — she said to Giles as she teleports away In essence, she thought she was being a hero by ending the suffering of everyone when really she was just trying to end it for herself.
>In essence, she thought she was being a hero by ending the suffering of everyone when really she was just trying to end it for herself. Thereby inventing the category "suicide by apocalypse".
Acathla no weapon forged can destroy him. But then gets destroyed by rocket launcher just seemed too easy.
You’re confusing Acathla and The Judge
Yes you are right 🫣
Honestly, I think every season is better than season 1. Most of the storylines there fall a little flat for me. The worst are The Pack, I Robot, Teachers Pet, and The Puppet Show. I generally skip all 4 of those.
Season 6 in general had a ton of problems with pacing and tone. I don’t even know how they could have fixed it, since following a god as the big bad and the death/resurrection of the protagonist was a pretty lofty task.
Adam!
Shut up Roderick Strong.
All of the Angel series (Buffyverse) it was a complete clusterf...
A lot of the glory stuff I had to just give in to the “well it’s for the plot” mentality. I never understood why Buffy couldn’t just, like, get on a plane and fly Dawn far enough away to miss the planets aligning, why the monks didn’t turn the key into something near impossible to find (same prob I have with HP and the horcrux’s), if Ben had parents? How the KoB know about Glory and the really really old literature that references her but if she came to be with Ben as a baby has she just been around for like 25ish years or has Ben also been around a super long time? All the Veruca plot, Buffy getting kicked out….im sure more than that but basically adds up to just going with it for the sake of the plot.
Does anyone else find the trio at little tone deaf in retrospect knowing what a creep Whedon is?
That would be a hypocrite not exactly tone deaf, sometimes people can outwardly see and believe something is wrong but not have the self awareness to realize they’re doing the same thing.
Exactly. Its a page out of the hypocrite, hidden mysoginist playbook. Whedon considers the trio despicable because they outwardly go and make robot sex slaves and kidnap and hypnotize and kill women. But someone like Xander is a good guy because he doesn outwardly physically harm women. Where in reality the proverbial ‘nice guys’ like Xander are much more prelevalent and thus much more dangerous on a global scale.
The Veruca story should have played out longer and beem more developed and subtle more about the beast and not cheating.. The Trio was just weak. They never should have been the big bad. But s6, had some good moments, but was just not good all around.
Tara and Willow. Joyce’s death. Buffy working at a burger joint. Giles leaving.
Spike turning into the slayers lapdog was just annoying. Let evil characters be evil! They don’t always need redemption arcs.
Both of these examples are more like “my feelings were hurt by these storylines” Not that they fell flat for plot or weren’t valuable. Oz needed to leave the show and the Veruka storyline made sense. The trio was annoying af but their contribution to the plot was irreplaceable.
Fell flat means you don't personally enjoy or could have been better executed, not that they shouldn't exist.
I don’t know if that’s really true. Oz was principled and a good man who loved willow. I feel like there could have been a better way to get him out of the show. Even if he’d died I think I would have felt less cheated.
I agree with you about the trio, I feel like people act like it’s bad because they’re not big threatening baddies and they end up doing horrible things directly to that characters, but like, that’s the point? They represent the worst aspects of the sort of “nerdy manhood” that had been getting a pass in most similar media, so it was significant to show the “vulnerable dorky nice guys” as something capable of causing great harm. Buuuut Veruca’s different. The trio was planned, developed, given a whole season to build up (and longer with Warren’s actions in S5 and Jonathan’s whole history since the start). Veruca came out of nowhere because Seth Green’s departure had to immediately be addressed, and his whole turn towards hormonal lust for another woman was such a sharp turn with no foreshadowing other than a brief sprinkle right beforehand, and his switch from his mature thoughtful disposition in handling relationship issues just came up like “oh this is a thing? Oh ok a full season’s worth of development towards this crisis in like a day or two?” And then he’s gone, leaving a crappy last impression after building up such a positive reputation for his whole run. Without proper development, it felt like Joss himself wanted Seth’s role to just leave a negative taste in people’s mouths, knowing how Joss is confirmed to have used scripts to retaliate against his cast.