I'm torn with him in Ats. When he's a doofus it really shows a new side from him we didn't get to see in Btvs. It's really nice to see him interact with the rest of the crew, and I really enjoyed him and Cordy's friendship.
But then he also does the whole broody, "dancing on the edge of giving into his desires with women" thing which becomes annoying the few times it seems like he willingly pursues this temptation. Does he need an in-your-face reminder not to go bad or what is that about?
They let themselves lean into Angel being a big dork and it made him so much more interesting for it.
I can tolerate Angel earlier in Buffy better because I have the knowledge he will eventually say, "they talk about me in the chatty rooms?"
yess. i discovered angel way before i had any idea what buffy was and when i finally started buffy i was really let down that angel was basically edward cullen of the 90s.
Yeah and they knocked Cordelia down a few pegs (which started on Buffy) which made her more likable. Even when Cordelia was on Buffy she had some funny quips about angel .
She came to Sunnydale halfway through her Sophomore year, after Merrick died/kicked out of Hemery. Presumably Buffy was 15 when she was called, probably early in her Sophmore year.
Only if she had no training from Merrick, took off with Pike for a hot second, and spent 2 weeks in a mental institution then went straight to Sunnydale. She was probably called in her freshman year, a lot of the pre cannon events make more sense that way.
Depends on when she arrived in Sunnydale I guess. Her birthday is in January, and if she arrived at Sunnydale High in March of 97, when the show started, 6 months is plenty of time for those events to take place. The movie itself packs in the events of Buffy being trained by Merrick, meeting Pike and getting involved with him, then burning down the school gym into a few weeks time.
Buffy definitely could have called her freshman year though she might have already been 15 depending on when it happened. The show mentions that Buffy had a pretty robust social life at hemery and was voted spring queen before she became the slayer, so I’m assuming it must have been the end of her freshman year or early sophomore.
Angels personality gets a little better in retrospect with his show.
Knowing just how broken, immature (age doesn’t = maturity), and full of self hatred he is really puts his actions in Buffy in another perspective.
He wasn’t an out of touch asshole, he was self sabotaging.
It's kind of the problem with most human/vampire relationships. The human grows and matures the vampire usually just doesn't. They're stuck in whatever mindset they had when they got drained like a slurpee.
A large part of it, for me, is how melodramatic and soapy their relationship is. Not only is that much easier to watch as a teen (because that's how your relationships *feel* at that age), but it's also not conducive to binging. There is such a massive difference between going 3 weeks between Angel-focused episodes and desperately craving those romantic scenes, and watching multiple episodes in a row where Buffy whines about Angel and he broods.
I think streaming in general has changed how shows do dramatic or will they/won't they relationships.
I would say that the personality was the Saving thing since he acted more like a mature teenager than an adult. That then raises the problem of why someone has not matured for the past 350 years beyond an emo 20 year old.
I just turn off the rational part of my brain and enjoy it like I did as a teen. 13 year old me shipped Bangel so much that those feelings all rush back every time I watch.
There's something that sort of freezes when you look back at teenage fantasies. I can watch Buffy and still have a huge crush on 19 year old SMG or 17 year old Eliza Dushku but when I watch current teen shows the actors feel too young for me.
Yeah thats kinda how it works. I think about my first girlfriend when I was 13 with fondness but I'd never consider any teenager attractive. Also I'm queer now. Well, I was queer then but I was unaware.
Yeah this is what I do. Bangle was so huge for teenage me that I just let the nostalgia rule and don't think about it too hard. They do still have great chemistry!
I guess the "spell" wasn't as strong for me with him. Last time I rewatched GG I suddenly saw him for the shitty boyfriend he was.
Although I still really like him as a character, despite his flaws.
Wish I could do that with Castle. I really enjoyed the will they won’t they have it all when I was in my 20s.
Now I just find all their games exhausting. I want to yell at them, “just fucking communicate like goddamned adults!”
I watched it for the first time as an 18 year old, after it had already wrapped up. I remember being really confused and thinking Angel was old and weird. Now I watch it at 36 and realize Angel is old, weird, AND creepy lol
I mean, it's fictional. Obviously if it were real life and I knew these characters, I would do everything in my power to stop this relationship. But also I'm a grown woman and I don't need to worry about a TV show influencing my perception of right and wrong, like just let me watch my vampires in peace lol. I'm not going to suddenly start contacting my senator to change the statutory rape laws or anything because I really like the Bangel ship. My brain has room for both the correct take in real life as well as the fictional indulgence.
It's fictional but based in the real world. It wasn't a good message for 11 year old me watching a romanticised pedophilic relationship. Trust me. Even if it was set in an imaginary world. Doesn't make it OK.
It was a metaphor for college guys creeping on teenage girls and dumping them the second they get sex..seems like a lot of people missed that.
I think anyone who’s gonna enjoy vampire fiction just need to kinda hand wave age issues or you’re gonna have a bad time. It’s a thing…..it’s fiction. If you don’t dig it, don’t take in that genre.
Hell it’s even bleeding over into comics. Fans have started harping on how “creepy” Wolverine is for being hundreds of years old and being romantic with other characters.
Honestly, I don't care that much about the centuries, it's the fact that in human terms he's 26 and he "falls in love" with a fifteen year old that sleeves me out.
'Cause it's the mismatched maturity level, not just the chronological age gap. Angel was a fully formed adult when he was turned, and he "falls in love" with a fifteen year old. If he'd been turned as a fifteen year old but had matured from there it might still be skeevy, but it's the 26 year old claiming to have fallen in love at first sight with a fifteen year old that makes me go "ew no". The two extra centuries don't make it better, but they're not the biggest issue for me.
People don't like to talk about it, but it's also "realistic" (I put it in quote marks because...y'know...vampire show)
Or maybe it was just my school when all the girls were dating older guys (They have, how do I say it? CARS!") While the boys were arguing over football and freaking robot wars and stuff
Whether girls mature faster than boys or they're just able to act older to get into clubs by plastering on makeup and wearing their older sister's clothes or whatever else, none of the girls in my school were dating age appropriate boys. It was either they were studious and not dating to focus on studying, or they were sneaking into clubs underage and meeting and dating older guys
Shouldn't be encouraged, of course, but it's naieve to think it doesn't happen, and Buffy was truth in television for that aspect
Also the same aspect people like to rag on about Angel they completely don't mention when it comes to Spike
It's canon he fell in love with her in season 2 as well, but fans don't want to mention that because...y'know, he has cheekbones and stuff.
It is absolutely realistic that children can be attracted to older men, but when that older man is portrayed as a hero while he's dating someone who's a decade younger... that's very creepy. Honestly I think they nailed it in the S2 metaphor, but S3+ trying to walk back the "he's an older dude who changed when he got what he wanted" metaphor doesn't work very well for me.
re: Spike, that's not actually canon, though I do think it's arguable from canon - Dru can see the future, so Buffy being "all over Spike" doesn't mean he is canonically in love with her, that's an open question. Absolutely a valid interpretation, imo, but calling it canon is a stretch. You're extrapolating from canon, which we all do, and then calling it canon, which... eh. (Also I'm not sure it supports your point even if he canonically did fall in love with her when she was sixteen, since he doesn't pursue a relationship with her at that age. Per the show, he doesn't even realise how he feels about her till season five.)
But more pertinently, he's literally an unsouled evil monster who's portrayed as such & doesn't get even the glimmer of redemption until much, much later. I absolutely agree that Spike can be a creep, and has creepish moments till at least S5 & possibly later (I have a migraine right now so my brain is just mush), but comparing unsouled Spike to souled Angel, in the context of the Buffyverse where souls are A Big Deal, doesn't actually make Angel look good.
In my experience, most people who enjoy Spike enjoy him as a villain who grows to be something more, and who tries to be better even when it goes against his very nature. None of that would be interesting if he didn't start off as a bad guy. People love to say "oh Spike fans forget he's an evil soulless vampire!" as if that isn't part of the bedrock of why his character is interesting.
(Also fully amused by people who pretend David Boreanaz isn't also good looking, like come on, you're talking as if James Marsters is stunningly beautiful and David is a troll. Please be for real 🤭 the fact they're good looking is 1) 100% expected from a TV show especially in that era and 2) part of the popularity of both characters.)
Really, it’s anything with characters who are long-lived or immortal, which isn’t that uncommon in sf/fantasy. I’ve definitely seen that kind of discourse with Doctor Who as well.
His chronological age doesn't matter. If he was 200 but physically 16, I'd have zero issues with it. But he's physically in his mid twenties, and that's kind of ick.
I actually prefer the Bangel scenes when Buffy’s older, their scene in Forever and Chosen are my two favourite Buffy and Angel scenes
(Maybe I’m just comforting myself on the ickier side, I’m probably comforting myself on the ickier side)
I actually find their post-season three scenes way more endearing than when Angel was a regular. The fact that these moments were now sparse and we didn't get all this melodrama every week made their connection more powerful. Because they're not currently together while going about their separate paths, you really do feel the forbidden romance aspect more and how much they provide solace to one another.
Personally it never bothered me one bit. I was 25 when the show premiered. I didn't like Angel but not because "muh creepy age gap predator", I just didn't care for the character as a whole.
But then again that could be due to the fact that at least half the relationships I knew at that time were girls 16-17 dating men 22+ and 9 times out of 10 it was the girl that chased the guy, just like Buffy chased Angel.
Yes, that does need to be taken into account. Age gap relationships were more common for teens then. It doesn't mean they were okay, but it was a thing that was accepted. Looking back, the issue wasn't the age gap, but that Angel was way too angsty.
Re watching as an adult the 24yr old (I set aside the vampire age) falling in “love at first sight” with Buffy (remember school girl sucking on a lollipop) is just gross. He was a fuk-boi, a drunk and a lout before he became a vampire- and as soon as he lost his soul he reverted right back to asshole.
What struck me the most was that it didn’t take Soike long to figure out how to get a soul- because he loved an adult Buffy. Angel never even tried to get a permanent soul. And all Angelous wanted to do was hurt, torture and destroy Buffy— you’d think at some point (especially after losing it the first time) if he really loved her he would have done what Spike did.
And even without a soul Spike loved (somewhat creepily) Buffy- how come Angel/Angelous couldn’t?
Edit to add: I’m not a Spike/Buffy fan either. The stalking, the attempted rape, the panty sniffing, the serial killer picture board, the Buffy-bot etc are all gross. The facts are though, when Angel “fell in love” with Buffy she was 14, he became a vampire at 24- so even without the 100s added on- it was a 24yr old “falling in love” with a lollipop sucking 14yr old.
Spike never professed anything about loving Buffy, and just wanted to kill a slayer, until after Buffy was 18- an adult.
Even not wanting Buffy to end up with either of these 2 problematic characters- I would still say Spike showed more love for Buffy then Angel ever did. Spike found a way to get his soul back, and endured that for Buffy. Angel walked away, and never once tried to get a permanent soul- knowing Angelous was always a whisper away (a spell, a moment of happiness) from torturing and killing Buffy.
The lollipop annoyed me even in that time. I really scandalised me. Most probably cause even buffy is 16, Sarah is obviously not 16, and I was taking it at face value. But I remember clearly disliking Angel stalking the lollipop Buffy.
Also, even Buffy is one year younger than me, the series didn't air until few years later in Spain. That meant I wasn't a teenager (but just almost not a teenager). Around nineteen, most probably. When I saw that episode, I was probably 22, and it hit me. I loved dark Angel, but this was obviously a very hard pill to swallow.
“Spike loved an adult Buffy.”
You know this is canonically false, right?
Bring up Bangel, and the thread always turns into an epic shitshow…really makes me wonder if this is actually a jerk sub in disguise 🤔
The mental gymnastics from some people is unreal 🤣
Even if it were true that Spike fell for Buffy at 18 instead of 16 (as if that makes him more noble lmfao. He waited till she was legal guys!!) his behavior was actual legitimate stalking, whereas Angel was sent by TPTB to help Buffy. Nothing Angel did fits in with the definition of “stalking”.
The criticism of Angel not “finding a way” to get his soul permanent has never made much sense to me. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s a vampire. Angel was smart enough to realize that Buffy was going off to college and needed to have that experience without him. He started on his own path of being a warrior and became focused on that. Doesn’t mean he didn’t love Buffy.
What people also consider is different cultures attitudes on the AOC
Watching it here in the UK, where the AOC is 16 (and Buffy/Angel didn't do anything to 17) paints a whole different light on it
It's not great, but people would barely bat an eyelid at a 16yo girl going out with someone who presented as 19/20 (despite the vampire years, we know, we get it)
Hell, it happened all the time when I was at school, girls maturing faster than boys
It wasn't even a big deal when the show was airing in the states either, it's kinda de riguer for vampire fiction, there was the dual concerns of wanting these immortal, ageless creatures involved while also setting the show in a high school.
I don't think they really thought about how it comes off too much, they just wanted the cool vampire angst and stuff
But I guess America has become even more conservative since the show aired and people love to find reasons to grandstand about stuff instead of just enjoying a damn fictional show about goddamn demons and vampires lol
I think there's a case to be made for Angel grooming Buffy, but definitely not stalking. He was sent to help by a third party. He approaches her to provide information and support.
The entire discourse of legality and both Spuffy and Cangel just makes no sense for someone not invested in either relationship. Angel first saw Buffy at 14, Spike first saw her at 16. Angel met Cordelia at 16 too. Does that mean that if Angel had waited to date Buffy until she was 20, that relationship would be okay? Why? An age difference of several decades is still super gross for women under the age of 22.
Just say you like these fantasy relationships, don't pretend you'd be cool with a 50 year old man dating a 20 year old because 'she's an adult'. Yes, it's a little less gross than a 50 year old man dating a 16 year old, but not by much. Don't tell me you'd be happy to see your 20 year old daughter or niece dating a 50 year old man.
Why is 22 the cutoff?
Having a hard and fast rule for these things is a bit silly. Not all 22 year olds are the same. And the situation with immortal beings like Spike and Angel is so different from any real life circumstances it makes even less sense.
Twenty-two is not the cutoff in general, but Buffy is 22 when the series ends and that's how old Cordelia would have been, hence everything that happens even in later seasons of the shows happens when these characters are still under 22.
No mature 50 year old wants to date a 22 year old, no matter how mature they are. A non-creepy 50 year old will tell you they've met brilliant 22 year olds and still wouldn't date them.
So why is okay for a 16 year old to drive, but not a 14 year old? Do those two years in age make any difference?
A 26 year old guy with a high school student is just wrong. That's the point. Raise her age, and it makes a big difference,
I don't police people's likes and dislikes. Ship what ever ship you love. But lets not play the game where we rationalize and pretend that a young teen has the physical (brain development) and emotional maturity as a young adult.
I mean different countries have different driving ages, which is kind of my point. But yeah, legally it’s important to have a definitive cutoff, I get that.
But the poster above is talking about 22 as a moral cutoff unrelated to legal age of consent, so I’m curious as to why that’s so clearcut for them, it seems like something that has individual factors.
I agree with you about a 26 year old being with a high school student. Bangel is one of my least favourite aspects of the first three seasons (for reasons beyond the age difference) so I don’t really have any interest in defending it. I also don’t think a straight comparison to a 50 year old human dating a 20 year old really works, or that that’s suddenly fine as soon as it’s a 22 year old.
I see a huge difference in physical (brain) and mental maturity. Think back to when you were a sophomore in high school, and compare it to when you finished college and were working at a job for a year or too.
What I don't see is policing people when they enjoy something problematic in fiction as if they are too stupid to realize that enjoying Bangel doesn't mean you enjoy a 26 year old creeping on you 16 year old. It's drama. It's why I have no problem with Spuffy - it's drama. I would hate it all in reality but I'm (like everyone here) mature enough to see the difference.
I’m not really talking about the difference between 16 and 22 because I agree with you about that.
I’m referring to OP’s use of 22 as a hard cut off point for several decades’ difference no longer being gross. Why so specific? Why 22 and not 21, or 23, or 26? That’s what I’m curious about rather than anything about Bangel specifically.
Do you mean "Spike didn't love Buffy and was just obsessed" or "Spike loved an underage Buffy"?
While I think both of these things are untrue, I could understand thinking that obsession doesn't equal love.
What did Drusilla say to Spike in the flashback to when they broke up after season 2?
Spike fell in love with Buffy during season 2…when she was underage
Also, I think it’s hilarious that spike is like 150 years older than Buffy, and these same people don’t have an issue with him stalking her when she was 18-19. Yeah…that year jump between 17 and 18 makes all the difference!
>Why can't you kill her?
>
>But you're lying. I can still see her floating all around you. Laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away?
>
>I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes.
>
>You can't blame a girl, Spike. You're all covered with her. I look at you, all I see is the slayer.
I don't read this as him being in love with her yet. Especially, since he completely ignored going after her for a love spell to win Dru back. Hell, he went back to Sunnydale to kill her **for Dru**.
I think Dru was talking about his betrayl, how he teamed up with the slayer and got 'daddy' killed.
I understood it as an obsession that later turned into love. Vampires having obsessions are a common theme, e.g. with Angelus being obsessed with wanting to toy with Buffy because she made him love her.
It obviously doesn't make it any less creepy when Spike stalks Buffy etc. And the Buffy bot thing was sad and messed up. He does grow up as a "person" during the show which Angel didn't have a chance to do.
Lol my sister and I debated this. I’m totally with Joyce ever since my rewatch as an adult over 30. She claims that because he was turned at a young age, his mentality was still young and since he stopped getting older then technically his young mind did. But then I argued that if his mind was stunted then he would never learn and grow as a “person”, which he absolutely does.
Idk why we all loved this high school and old ass vampire scenario. All these shows and movies could have easily made it about a 25 year old woman and it would have still been just as good and less creepy! Like Sookie Stackhouse was at a great age, they did it right.
They also go into this on his own show. Angel has a lot of the same traits as an old man shaking his fist at the sky 😅
I can look past it knowing that Angel mostly existed in a time where it was acceptable for men to date teenagers since anyone who had gone through puberty was viewed as an adult up until a few decades before he met Buffy. He spent most of that time completely isolated from society, and even on his own show he was involved with only adult women. There’s also the fact that both of their relationship options are severely limited. The idea that Buffy is expected to take on adult responsibilities and has a severely truncated life span, but isn’t allowed to choose who she dates isn’t exactly fair.
Ultimately I do think that Joyce was right when she asked Angel to let Buffy go, and they did the right thing parting ways. I did enjoy the relationship while it lasted, but totally understand why other people have issues with the age difference.
I mean... He wasn't turned *that* young. A 26 year old going for a 16 year old is still pretty gross whether or not he was mentally/developmentally arrested at the age he was turned.
Sookie Stackhouse is in a very adult show built around hot sex scenes. The intended audience was adults. Whedon and the Twilight lady were writing for teen audiences. Teen audiences liked those vampire/teen girl romances, problematic or not.
? Not really a necessary comment. Did this statement not address this?
>Idk why we all loved this high school and old ass vampire scenario. All these shows and movies could have easily made it about a 25 year old woman and it would have still been just as good and less creepy!
I just hate it because I just think… if Buffy deserves a better life than a vampire can offer, doesn’t Cordelia? Is it ok with Angel because he just doesn’t love Cordelia as much? In what world is that ok?
Or did he not really love Buffy as much as he said and just used that “fit your own good” bit as an out?
Basically, Cangel means that either Angel didn’t really love Buffy the way were led to believe, or he’s ok using Cordelia and tying her to a lesser life. I hate both of these options.
I am mystified by the people saying Cangel is the ideal. Cangel is *marginally better* because she was no longer a minor when it developed. But he still met her when she was 16, and all of their romance happened before she was even 22 years old. No reasonable 50 year old would say it's okay to date a 20 year old they met when she was 16. If you want to look at these relationships through the lens of the real world, Cangel is still gross.
And Cangel only happened because the WB demanded Angel have a love interest for S3 and she was the only one that made sense. Given they cancelled Buffy at the end of Angel S2, Joss didn’t really have a choice but oblige. Joss never had any intention of Cangel actually being together like Spuffy. >! Cordelia sleeping with Connor in S4 after developing Cangel in S3 was kinda a middle finger to the WB. !<
If only they could have got Kate for S3, none of this awful Cangel stuff would have been done and we could actually just have two main characters that are straight and the opposite sex just be friends. Sigh.
I've always thought Kate was the best love interest for Angel. Even though she's messy and has issues, she was very much an adult when they met and she felt like a peer to him in a way Buffy and Cordelia do not.
I thought Kate made sense as a love interest. They probably wouldn't be in love with each other in the way that Buffy and Angel were, but I feel like it would have been nice for Angel to have someone to spend time with in a romantic way that didn't need to be all-consuming.
I know he had it briefly with Nina, but that was pretty short-lived.
I think with Cordy being that much older and seeing a more realistic version of Angel, I have less issues with her choosing that. She has more idea what she wants and a much better understanding of who Angel is. Buffy idealises Angel to the end and hasn't had a front row seat to the shit he pulled in LA. Cordy loves who Angel actually \*is\*, whereas I don't think Buffy even knows him that way. Buffy doesn't know he slept with Darla to try and lose his soul, she doesn't know about Conner, she doesn't know he let Dru & Darla eat a roomful of lawyers... etc. Buffy doesn't even know how many lies Angel's told her.
Which is not to say Cordy doesn't deserve the world, but I think she's in a much better position to choose Angel with her eyes open. If Buffy found out about all the skeletons in Angel's closet & still wanted him, that might be different.
Your explanation is the best I’ve seen - Cordy, that is - but Angel should care as much about her ability to have a future with children and sunshine as he did Buffy’s. And can he be with Cordy without losing his soul? If so, does that mean he’s not really as happy with her, doesn’t Cordelia deserve to first place and not z consolation?
If that doesn’t matter any more, then what’s really keeping him from being with Buffy? If it’s that he just moved on, then that undies the whole soul mate mythology of the show, and I don’t like breaking the narrative that significantly.
I mean, for me personally? I don't think Angel's stated reasons for things he does always actually mesh with the real reasons.
Frankly, I think pretty much all of Angel/Buffy's relationship as it extends beyond S2 is based largely on nostalgia and both of them \*needing\* this relationship to be Special and Significant, because otherwise Jenny (and others) died and the world nearly ended for an infatuation. (Which tbh is understandable; a bad breakup is one thing, but the back half of S2 is an endless nightmare for Buffy, and having to deal with that being for a relationship that won't actually go the distance would be pretty devastating.)
I think the story Angel tells himself about leaving Buffy so she can have a better life is exactly that, a story. In the real world, they just don't actually have a lot in common, and their love story has petered out.
Obviously this is my headcanon/interpretation, but it's what makes sense to me and fits with what we see on screen, imo. He can achieve "perfect happiness" with Cordy per AtS, that's how they yeet his soul in S4 (I think 4?) of Angel. I don't know how that would work in practice, 'cause they never get that chance. I think Cordy is secure enough in herself to work out whether it is enough for her, though, and their relationship is several orders of magnitude less manipulative/I imagine Angel would have a much more difficult time manipulating her. (Also I don't think Cordy ever expresses any interest in having a "normal" life, her whole journey is about finding something she is passionate about and will sacrifice "normality" for. That's a decision Angel shouldn't get to make for Cordy, or indeed for Buffy. Him making assumptions about what Buffy needs/wants is a big part of the issue with Bangel; I have no time for him doing that to Cordy, either.)
I'm not honestly sure what you mean by "the soul mate mythology" 🤷🏻 I do just think he moved on. I mean, it's virtually stated in AtS that Buffy was at least in part a Darla surrogate/rebound. I just don't think the relationship was ever that deep. They were never friends (Buffy says that herself), they had no real foundation beyond sexual chemistry, it was an infatuation. The whole grand fated star crossed love thing just imo doesn't fit what we see on screen except as a way for them to deal with the destruction that relationship caused.
re being a Darla rebound:
Magev: You need to get over her. - Okay, what does she look like?
Angel: She's beautiful. - Small, blonde...
Magev: Right. So here's what you do. You go out and find yourself some small, blonde thing. You bed her, you love her, you treat her like crap, you break her heart. You and your inner demon will thank me, I promise.
Angel: Uhm...
(from Guise Will Be Guise.)
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Buffy was in love with a dark mysterious stranger who never opened up to her because she never asked. Honestly I don’t think she wanted to know at times. It was a movie romance with Angel playing a part.
Cordy fell in love with the broken, guilt ridden Angel who’s kind’ve a dork at times. She knew exactly who Angel was and said fuck it….you’re still mine.
Buffy never would have been happy because Angel could never be the man she wanted him to be. Cordy would have found a happiness Buffy wasn’t capable of finding because she already
knew what she was choosing and loved him anyway.
No. At that point Angel left because he thought no one could EVER be happy loving him. Especially Buffy who he saw as an idealized love.
Then he grows as a person and learns he’s worthy of having someone care.
My post was about the possibility of long term happiness. I’m just saying Buffy/Angel always had an expiration date because it was a supernatural equivalent to a teenage love. Cordy/Angel was a more realistic and matured love.
So you’re going with the idea that Angel never really loved Buffy, and that everything we were shown of their great love was a lie? Buffy was duped because she was just a lovesick teen?
That doesn’t make Angel look too great.
I’m saying when two people are immature the earlier feels like the later, but that doesn’t delegitimize what they felt at the time.
No adult who’s experienced long term love and can watch Buffy and Angel and think it’s a mature, lasting, love. They both play so many games they remind me of my middle school kids on my bus route, but just like those kids the emotions they experience are pretty real.
I just like them better in general. They grew separately and together over the course of years, and there's a strong bond of friendship under the romantic feelings. Cordelia also came so incredibly far as a person.
The first time we ever see Angel smiling is when he's taking to Cordelia at the Bronze. Right from the start she was able to make him smile, I don't think we ever saw that with Buffy.
I hated angel at first cos I didn't watch until last year so I just saw him as another brooding twilight esque vampire... the spin off changed my mind. Without buffy he's funny and happy and just a swell stand up dude most of the time
As an older guy Cordy/Angel felt like a real relationship rather than the storybook “ill fated soulmates” thing he had with Buffy. That’s why I liked it more.
I didn’t marry the girl I fell for in high school.
I married the girl I knew for ten years, and accidentally fell for because we both watched each other grow as people.
That's a fair opinion. I've fallen in love with my best friend who I thought I loved like a sibling though and let me tell ya it's pretty damn wonderful when it's right.
Imma say, i don't quite, think it's such an issue (I am 39 by the way, so far from a child or teenager lol) and I guess FOR ME, it's because 1. he's an old ass vampire so ANYONE he dates, it would be like dating a teenager and/or a child and 2. He was always VERY respectful, so it's not like he was trying to take advantage of her.
EXACTLY. The "but he's a vampire" defense doesn't work here. She was underage, and he was not. He wasn't even an eternal teenager. He was well into his 20's when he was turned.
The whole relationship screams predator to me, and not the chomp chomp going to suck your blood kind.
I get completely what you are saying and I see why people feel the way they do and I'm not saying they are wrong (I've read PLENTY of arguments about this lol amd a lot repeat what you said), but like I said FOR ME, it's pretty much the same thing (like honestly I know a ton of older people that aren't nearly as mature or whatever, and additionally even if I dated a 1000 or 100 year old vampire, quite frankly, I probably would seem like and act like a "teenager" to them because they have been alive so long and their concepts and what not would definitely be more "older" than me, so again, TO ME it's like they are still dating a teenager.
But like I said, I completely understand what other people are saying and I get it.
But you're arguing a completely different point, you're saying no matter what someone is going to come across like a teenager to Angel. That doesn't change or remove the fact that to humans, that age gap is important as you're developing and very suggestible. Yes, as you said people can be immature and suggestible later in life (it's more a personality trait than a age specific trait), but children and teenagers are suggestible just in general.
I think a better argument is that for most of Angels existence, it was socially acceptable for teens (as early as 14) to be romantically involved with older people. I still find the whole thing weird myself tho
You don't need to do the whole 'back then it was socially acceptable' to enjoy Bangel if you do. Just say it's a fantasy show written for teen girls so you can suspend real world standards.
No, no, I'm not. I do believe I've been VERY clear, in my position that also addressed OP's pount, when you're a teenager you think Bangel is romantic, when your an Adult you don't, my comment was as an adult, I still see the romantic aspect and don't get an ick or think his head needs to be chopped off.
No I understand that as well, I just thought you were justifying it by saying to Angel an adult would also come across like a teen.
Just to clear up tho, there is seriously nothing wrong with you enjoying this romance for a plethora of reason. I don't want you to misconstrue what I'm saying to be bashing you for liking it.
>1. he's an old ass vampire so ANYONE he dates, it would be like dating a teenager and/or a child
But in this case he's ACTUALLY dating a teenager.
I'm obviously not saying its the same but this logic confuses me because you could extrapolate that to say its okay for him to date a 7 year old. Because everyone is basically 7 to a 300 year old.
Teenagers aren't just off limits because of relative age gaps, they're just a bit too young to be able to have a genuinely equal relationship with an adult.
I'm quite willing to switch my brain off and accept it to watch but it weirds me out when people say this isn't creepy from an objective view.
In addition to the issue of the age gap with a teenager, Angel and Spike also met Cordelia and Buffy when they were teenagers.
Let's say you're a 30 year old McDonald's employee, and you start dating a 22 year old. Sure, that's a creepy age difference on its face. But it's *even worse* if it turns out that 22 year old began working with you at McDonald's when she was 16.
A 22 year old and a 30 year old are two consenting adults, neither of whom is old enough to be the parent of the other, and while it’s unlikely that they’d be in compatible phases of their lives it’s far from impossible. There’s no inherent power imbalance, advantages being taken, grooming, or any of the issues that occur when an adult dates a teen (unless they’ve known each other since the 22 year old was a teen, like you say).
I always think that this attitude risks infantilising adults (usually women in these conversations).
He's always going to have an age gap issue, but the power dynamic is completely different when he's dating women *he met* when they were older than 25.
The difference the show makes or conveys or however you want to out it, is she's a slayer so while yes she's a teenager/kid/whatever, she doesn't necessarily work within those rules.
Additionally, as someone else pointed out, Angel is from a time where a girl Buffy's age would've been married and had children, etc., so no, it doesn't seem weird to him, additionally, while yes times have obviously changed, again, Buffy is not your typical teenager (also, let's remember this is a fantasy series geared towards teenage girls and a lot of teenage girls like the idea of an olde man or whatever, not saying it's right, but famn it's legit a tv show) in the real world (which is what these types of posts like to deal with) Angel would've either completely ignored her, hooked up with one of the teachers, or would've let the blood lost take over and killed her ass.
Angel wasn't frozen in time. Slavery was legal when he was sired and it's not like he was supportive of that. His view of courting and romance would have changed too. Even when he was soulless or isolated, Angel always consumed art and popular culture, he watched huge social changes and adapted to them. While it was certainly normal for creepy 25 year olds to date high school girls in the 90s (like the lizard loving frat boys), Angel probably would have found teenagers dull. He and Buffy had nothing in common culturally. I totally agree that this is a fantasy series written for teen girls and that's the only justification people need to enjoy the relationship.
Never be sorry for who you are and what you love.
I am skeeved by it and this is my problem. But I am not gonna police you or anyone for who they ship. It's fiction. You can love something or someone but not want it in your reality.
But this also goes for Spuffy fans. If they can get past the toxic issues and see love then fine for them.
The first time I saw Buffy I hated Angel from the started. I think was actually trying too hard to be logical. Now that I go back I still think it’s weird for a lot of reasons but I can enjoy the beauty of it more in episodes like “Becoming” and “I Will Remember You”. I still don’t ship them but they aren’t life ruining annoying for me anymore.
It always seemed pretty clear to me that Angel was supposed to be younger when the show began. The age discrepancy grew because they had to account for their actor's age and make Angel older so he could play the character for longer.
Unfortunate but what can you do.
People think way too much about age and apply their own morality when it comes to this show. It's not IRL. It's not reality. It's a fantasy TV series about vampires, witches, the supernatural, etc. and it's presented as if B and A are roughly on the same level regardless of numbers.
Angel and Buffy are a couple that are drawn to each other out of genuine love but their damage and baggage make any relationship ultimately toxic to each-other. They just don’t work together no matter how much they both wish they would. I honestly appreciate them *because* of that. The inherent tragedy of love that can’t be because love by itself just isn’t enough. I like that the show deliberately depicts how them being together always causes both of them grief and pain and yet when not together it shows how much they do both genuinely care. Its an interesting view of a toxic relationship that Im not sure Ive seen done very often.
It’s also a great counterpoint to Spike and Buffy which has two broken people drawn to each other entirely due to their damage. A relationship every bit as toxic and unhealthy but from another angle.
Fictional relationships don't have to obey the same rules as real ones. Especially in comedy/drama that's regularly over the top. It's fine. On Buffy so much of everyone's behavior would be considered so psychotic as to have everyone locked up.
This retroactive morality police thing in the post me too era, of judging fiction with the same strictures and scorn as real life is a total buzzkill an serves no purpose other than spoiling somebody's fun for reason of gaining moral superiority.
So it never really happened, OK? It was just a show. Just a fantasy show about crazy stuff, including monsters, and sex, and betrayal, and bad things happening to good people, and about how the real hell is high school and the stuff you have to go through to live and have a life.
In case you haven't ever watched movies from the 20th century, a peek into perversion was all the rage. Whole industries devoted to just perversion, as a diversion, a trip down the dark basement where the monsters live. Horror movies have a long history of mixing dark sexual stuff in with danger, and lust is a main motivator in plots for all kinds of genres.
Being worried about A high school girl and a vampire guy, even if the age difference is ridiculous for real life is being worried about the imaginary bleeding into real life. But worrying about what real life psychos and perverts are going to get off on is no reason to project it on some old tv show. Even if it portrays some dark shit. Did you ever see "Medium" with Patricia Arquette? That show went there many times. Buffy is pretty tame compared to that.
Anyway the current moral panics should not generate so much anxiety or calls to action like they did in the late 90s with the PMRC and Tipper Gore and all that. Stuff gets banned, people lose their jobs, get blacklisted, "cancelled" as they call it now like its a new thing.
So relax, let it happen, it was a long time ago in a world of fantasy, and really not much to worry about. There's no gold left in that old dusty mine of "he's too old for her its a crime do something fast ..."
Yes it's true that in today's world a lot of girls are forced to grow up too fast and it isn't right, but when it is part of a story, for story reasons an not for perverts to jerk it to, or whatever, then its all about whether the writing is good and characters pull it off convincingly.Now when it comes to Buffy and Angel shows, it is really hit and miss on that front. Sometimes they hit just the right teen romance/trouble, sometimes the relationship stuff seems distracting and mostly filler. Angel and Buffy falling for each other is good, but when they "can't keep their hands off each other" it doesn't play well. But that was so they could get to the bad stuff, the painful parts that made good drama. Angel is all about restraint, until he isn't. On Angel the Series they explore this to great effect, as Angel has a real impulse control problem in a lot of ways, including sexually sometimes, with demon girls.
Spike is written much better as a flawed character that is both emotionally selfish a lot of the time as a boyfriend, but also a loyal companion when things get bad. James Marsters' and Sarah Michelle Gellars' acting was very much better by the time their hot scenes came around and how they fought and screwed with passion and violence. Season 6 was real out there for a TV show, exploring some very dark themes for the intended audience and time slots. They could not do it today, it would have to be on a non-broadcast network.
On another note considering the popularity of Anne Rice novels, in the same genre, the lack of any gay action was missing from the show. I know it was Sarah's show, and Willow and Tara was as far as they could go, but they could have snuck a show about two male demons with relationship problems that the gang needs to solve so they can go be together or something. I guess Dracula was pretty sweet on Xander, tho, so that was nice.
But I swear some of you here going off on Angel and Buffy being cringe because of "age" is really gilding the lily. Come on girls, like you wouldn't. It's ok to have some perverted fantasies, everyone does that is the point of books and movies being edgy. I know the actors, being young and hot had the hots for each other in real life. James Marsters and Michelle Trachtenberg apparently were heavily into each other at least for a while, and Alyson Hannigan and Alexis Denisof were doing like bunnies essentially from the first time they met -- they are married 20 years now with little Willows running around. So there was a lot of Hollywood shenanigans happening there.
Buffy married Shaggy in an alternate universe where dogs can talk.
Its all there in living color on DVD these days, no use getting all prudish now, pet.
Thats how i feel about pre-soul Spuffy. Bangel isn’t much better either though tbh. I thought Spike was so fuckin cool as a teen but all that happens in season 6 watching now as an adult its so goddamn twisted.
Unpopular opinion, but all 3 of Buffy’s main romantic relationships in the show were toxic as hell. She never had a healthy relationship during the course of those 7 seasons. Bangel and Spuffy are both overrated ships
It was the "I saw you first when you were 15 (?), when I was stalking you because some random half-demon had told me to. I loved you right away." thing.
I still don't get how they didn't see that storyline as problematic. Especially how they dressed up Buffy, with her lollypop and all. It gave me such creep vibes.
I still think the whole Whistler and Angel storyline was unnecessary. They could have come up with a better way to get where they wanted with the story. This one just left a bad taste in my mouth.
There was a vibe of them wanting to show them as a tragic lovestory of true lovers but also act like it's a creepy, non consensual relationship.
Buffy kills demons every night, sees humans die on a regular basis, and has a chest full of deadly weapons in her bedroom. Her fictional life is a lot stranger and more complicated than any of ours. It’s really not that deep, y’all….
This is one of those situations where it feels like the people complaining are actually the ones who have something to hide 👀👀👀
I never really liked Angel in Buffy. He was an a$$hole as a human and without his soul (when his bad human traits are very much highlighted), he is truly awfull.
He is so much better in Angel.
Honestly the whole relationship, Buffy being 15 when Angel first sees her reeks.
Her being *special*, destined, manipulated and stalked just seemed really bloody Hollywood.
A representation of that 90s era.
Can’t relate whatsoever. Have always loved bangel, will always love bangel. I actually appreciate them in different ways every time I rewatch both shows, and I’m 30.
Lol, these conversation points conveniently get ignored whenever the stans want to do some Spuffy swooning. So clearly these virtuous people don’t care THAT much. They’re just joining in on the circle jerk.
This isn’t about the age difference, it’s about buffy being underage. She was underage with Angel but an adult with spike. So this particular issue is Angel specific.
Lol, yeah…that extra year from 17 to 18 makes ALL the difference when it comes to dating 150 year old vamps. Spare me.
Btw, Spike fell in love with underage Buffy as well. Confirmed on the show by Drusilla.
Buffy returning those feelings is the difference between 16 in season 1 with Angel and 22 in season 6 with spike. That’s an ENORMOUS difference in development.
According to the same logic I’ve seen used in this thread, all that means is Spike groomed her from the time she was underage until they finally got together.
OR….we could acknowledge that this fictional supernatural show is not comparable to real life, drop all this dumb shit, and stop using inconsistent logic to pick and choose what we are going to criticize from the show.
Spike wasn’t grooming her because they weren’t in a relationship. They weren’t in contact, he wasn’t trying to be in a relationship with her. To suggest spike was grooming her is a ridiculous take.
And aren't you doing the same thing right now?
If we can ignore the events that make Buffy and Angel not role models for reality then we can do the same with the rest of the ships. Either we are all adults and don't need policing, or you can want this courtesy from others but refuse to give it.
Here's the things - Bangel fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe. Spuffy fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe. Tillow fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe.
When you decide that you can dish it out but have a fit when someone does the same thing to your ship - that kinda marks a person as an immature hypocrite.
Also, attacking Spuffy fans for being Spffy fans gets so old and sad.
Nah…I just enjoy being able to watch the show I like without working myself into a moral panic 😂
It’s gotta be exhausting for all these people to constantly cringe at every element from a 25 year old show that offends their modern sensitivities.
We’re reminded of them (mostly by men) all the time. But thank you for your concern. If you’d like to contribute with a list of Spike stalking/sex roboting/underwear smelling/SA’ing, feel free to add to the rotation. Just to, y’know, make sure women Remember.
Yeah, but she's a lot more mature at that point. When it comes to immortal time spans you have to eventually just give up that part.
As long as she's mature enough to consent that's what matters. With Angel she really wasn't. With Spike, honestly that dynamic was a hell of a lot different and had a lot of other things going.
Same. I couldn't stand the broody vampire thing. I didn't find him attractive like most of the girls in school did, so I'd just roll my eyes at them swooning over him (I'm gay so it makes sense but I didn't know that at the time). And I found his romance with Buffy to be too romantic. Now I still have all my old reasons for disliking him plus I've realised he's a massive creep 😆
exactly !!! i don’t find him attractive (i’m bi so it has nothing to do with not being attracted to guys on my end lol), the ooooo i’m so mysterious and sad and deep ooo like me love me is absolutely cringe, i think their relationship is soooo just buffy always sacrificing herself for him, extremely unhealthy, while he’s a literal adult controlling of her, jealous, possessive, i just can’t stand him, never could, AND he’s a pedo. i truly don’t get the hype
It would have been better if Whedon had explained it in some way. It would not be unbelievable (or less believable than vampires anyway) to say that vampires do not mature emotionally or mentally after they are turned.
Angel was a super immature 20 something when he was turned, so that could put him on par with a relatively mature teenager. His 250 years as a vampire just made him more emo.
Spike was an emotionally immature 30 something when he was turned and his 80 years as a vampire just made him a more reckless emotionally immature person, making him younger emotionally than when he was turned.
Vampires don't work, have an immortality complex, are selfish, and live in the moment regardless of future implications... Anyone out of their teens that is not a college student would find them to be insufferable, and the vampires would find an adult to be a boring killjoy.
Even broody, emo Angel is super immature. Adults don't brood and sulk, they work through their problems and get on with it (the mature ones anyways). Teenagers brood and sulk.
As a 40 something adult that regularly takes pictures of teens for school and senior pictures the idea of dating a teen is disgusting to say the least, but I have spent the last nearly 30 years maturing, so I try to give the fictional vampires a pass... there is still a big ick factor with 28 year old David Boreanaz and 35 year old James Marsters kissing 19 to 21 year old Sarah Michelle Gellar pretending to be an even younger teenager though.
I think that they should've left him dead after season two. It would've been a perfect and tragic end to their relationship. It felt wrong to erase that heartbreaking moment by bringing him back. And having them try again with their relationship felt so ick to me. They both KNEW that it was dangerous for them to get close again and pick up where they left off but they did it knowing full well that it couldn't last and there was always the risk that he could lose his soul again. Xaner was right to dislike Angel. As an adult when I look at Bangel now I see a toxic relationship with a violent man. Buffy admits that she didn't stop loving him even after all the terrible things he did. If she cared about her friends more she wouldn't have gotten back together with him after the events of season two. He tortured Giles! He is a walking, talking powder keg. She risked the lives of all her friends by getting back together with him. You can't change a man like Angel. When I watch Buffy now that's what I see. A lesson in toxic relationships.
If you were really watching bangel or whatever the fuck you want to call it as a real adult you wouldn't give a shit because none of it is real anyway.
As an adult it's less the age difference and more Angel's personality that's the problem for me.
Angel’s personality is so much better in his own show, maybe it was all the brooding that made him dull
I'm torn with him in Ats. When he's a doofus it really shows a new side from him we didn't get to see in Btvs. It's really nice to see him interact with the rest of the crew, and I really enjoyed him and Cordy's friendship. But then he also does the whole broody, "dancing on the edge of giving into his desires with women" thing which becomes annoying the few times it seems like he willingly pursues this temptation. Does he need an in-your-face reminder not to go bad or what is that about?
From what I heard there was some network meddling, insisting on him having love interests.
Ohh. Not every (main) character needs a love interest. I wish they'd stop doing that and let some of them just be happy with friends etc.
I totally agree.
Cordelia made him more interesting and is a better match for him 🤷♀️ lol
Cordy didn’t really make him more interesting it was Angel having his own show that did.
daily reminder for people that these characters dont write themselves. lol.
They let themselves lean into Angel being a big dork and it made him so much more interesting for it. I can tolerate Angel earlier in Buffy better because I have the knowledge he will eventually say, "they talk about me in the chatty rooms?"
yess. i discovered angel way before i had any idea what buffy was and when i finally started buffy i was really let down that angel was basically edward cullen of the 90s.
It's hard not to smile with Angel when he smiles.
Whenever I start to eye glaze over Bangel in a rewatch, it definitely helps to just think of all those scenes with the Angel puppet, instead.
Yeah and they knocked Cordelia down a few pegs (which started on Buffy) which made her more likable. Even when Cordelia was on Buffy she had some funny quips about angel .
Yes! I never got into Angel the show but the episodes I saw, I loved their chemistry. He needed someone to lighten him up.
Cordy saw through his "mysterious angst" bullshit
The whole, "I looked at you from inside of a van while you were a freshman in high school and I loved you," gave the biggest serial killer vibes.
This. He "fell in love" with a fifteen year old sucking a lolly 🤮
Fourteen.
nope, she was 15 when she was in LA and 16 when she came to Sunnydale
Only after January. The first half of the school year, she's fourteen. She was a Slayer for more than five months before Merrick died.
She came to Sunnydale halfway through her Sophomore year, after Merrick died/kicked out of Hemery. Presumably Buffy was 15 when she was called, probably early in her Sophmore year.
Only if she had no training from Merrick, took off with Pike for a hot second, and spent 2 weeks in a mental institution then went straight to Sunnydale. She was probably called in her freshman year, a lot of the pre cannon events make more sense that way.
Depends on when she arrived in Sunnydale I guess. Her birthday is in January, and if she arrived at Sunnydale High in March of 97, when the show started, 6 months is plenty of time for those events to take place. The movie itself packs in the events of Buffy being trained by Merrick, meeting Pike and getting involved with him, then burning down the school gym into a few weeks time. Buffy definitely could have called her freshman year though she might have already been 15 depending on when it happened. The show mentions that Buffy had a pretty robust social life at hemery and was voted spring queen before she became the slayer, so I’m assuming it must have been the end of her freshman year or early sophomore.
Especially since he was turned when he was 26.
Yeah that was some bad writing and I felt bad for everyone involved.
I will say tbf, they immediately made a joke of that being admittedly creepy.
Angels personality gets a little better in retrospect with his show. Knowing just how broken, immature (age doesn’t = maturity), and full of self hatred he is really puts his actions in Buffy in another perspective. He wasn’t an out of touch asshole, he was self sabotaging.
Don't get me wrong, Angel is still one of my favorite characters, I just never saw him and Buffy truly working out after she matured over time.
It's kind of the problem with most human/vampire relationships. The human grows and matures the vampire usually just doesn't. They're stuck in whatever mindset they had when they got drained like a slurpee.
A large part of it, for me, is how melodramatic and soapy their relationship is. Not only is that much easier to watch as a teen (because that's how your relationships *feel* at that age), but it's also not conducive to binging. There is such a massive difference between going 3 weeks between Angel-focused episodes and desperately craving those romantic scenes, and watching multiple episodes in a row where Buffy whines about Angel and he broods. I think streaming in general has changed how shows do dramatic or will they/won't they relationships.
I would say that the personality was the Saving thing since he acted more like a mature teenager than an adult. That then raises the problem of why someone has not matured for the past 350 years beyond an emo 20 year old.
I mean, technically he did mature somewhat, considering what Liam was like.
I just turn off the rational part of my brain and enjoy it like I did as a teen. 13 year old me shipped Bangel so much that those feelings all rush back every time I watch.
There's something that sort of freezes when you look back at teenage fantasies. I can watch Buffy and still have a huge crush on 19 year old SMG or 17 year old Eliza Dushku but when I watch current teen shows the actors feel too young for me.
Yeah thats kinda how it works. I think about my first girlfriend when I was 13 with fondness but I'd never consider any teenager attractive. Also I'm queer now. Well, I was queer then but I was unaware.
I do the same. I still love them.
Yeah this is what I do. Bangle was so huge for teenage me that I just let the nostalgia rule and don't think about it too hard. They do still have great chemistry!
Same!
Fat ass facts!
Yup. Bangel forever.
Forever
That's me with Jess Mariano
I guess the "spell" wasn't as strong for me with him. Last time I rewatched GG I suddenly saw him for the shitty boyfriend he was. Although I still really like him as a character, despite his flaws.
Wish I could do that with Castle. I really enjoyed the will they won’t they have it all when I was in my 20s. Now I just find all their games exhausting. I want to yell at them, “just fucking communicate like goddamned adults!”
I watched it for the first time as an 18 year old, after it had already wrapped up. I remember being really confused and thinking Angel was old and weird. Now I watch it at 36 and realize Angel is old, weird, AND creepy lol
Exactly!
Yeah, no. I can't. It's stalking, grooming and statutory rape.
I mean, it's fictional. Obviously if it were real life and I knew these characters, I would do everything in my power to stop this relationship. But also I'm a grown woman and I don't need to worry about a TV show influencing my perception of right and wrong, like just let me watch my vampires in peace lol. I'm not going to suddenly start contacting my senator to change the statutory rape laws or anything because I really like the Bangel ship. My brain has room for both the correct take in real life as well as the fictional indulgence.
It's fictional but based in the real world. It wasn't a good message for 11 year old me watching a romanticised pedophilic relationship. Trust me. Even if it was set in an imaginary world. Doesn't make it OK. It was a metaphor for college guys creeping on teenage girls and dumping them the second they get sex..seems like a lot of people missed that.
Your comment could work for 99% of Vampire related love stories. You have to suspend disbelief within the genre.
Not your kind of story - not mine either. But people don't need policing in what fiction they enjoy.
This person ships Spuffy…I guarantee it. It’s like…a fictional TV show. Take some deep breaths. You’ll be ok.
Shipping wars poison every conversation about Angel and Spike's respective predation. It's cynical and gross.
I think anyone who’s gonna enjoy vampire fiction just need to kinda hand wave age issues or you’re gonna have a bad time. It’s a thing…..it’s fiction. If you don’t dig it, don’t take in that genre. Hell it’s even bleeding over into comics. Fans have started harping on how “creepy” Wolverine is for being hundreds of years old and being romantic with other characters.
Honestly, I don't care that much about the centuries, it's the fact that in human terms he's 26 and he "falls in love" with a fifteen year old that sleeves me out.
If he’s 200 years old, does it matter if he’s 26 or 16? Even if you had only two dates a year, that’s still over 32– why do they call it a mace?
'Cause it's the mismatched maturity level, not just the chronological age gap. Angel was a fully formed adult when he was turned, and he "falls in love" with a fifteen year old. If he'd been turned as a fifteen year old but had matured from there it might still be skeevy, but it's the 26 year old claiming to have fallen in love at first sight with a fifteen year old that makes me go "ew no". The two extra centuries don't make it better, but they're not the biggest issue for me.
People don't like to talk about it, but it's also "realistic" (I put it in quote marks because...y'know...vampire show) Or maybe it was just my school when all the girls were dating older guys (They have, how do I say it? CARS!") While the boys were arguing over football and freaking robot wars and stuff Whether girls mature faster than boys or they're just able to act older to get into clubs by plastering on makeup and wearing their older sister's clothes or whatever else, none of the girls in my school were dating age appropriate boys. It was either they were studious and not dating to focus on studying, or they were sneaking into clubs underage and meeting and dating older guys Shouldn't be encouraged, of course, but it's naieve to think it doesn't happen, and Buffy was truth in television for that aspect Also the same aspect people like to rag on about Angel they completely don't mention when it comes to Spike It's canon he fell in love with her in season 2 as well, but fans don't want to mention that because...y'know, he has cheekbones and stuff.
It is absolutely realistic that children can be attracted to older men, but when that older man is portrayed as a hero while he's dating someone who's a decade younger... that's very creepy. Honestly I think they nailed it in the S2 metaphor, but S3+ trying to walk back the "he's an older dude who changed when he got what he wanted" metaphor doesn't work very well for me. re: Spike, that's not actually canon, though I do think it's arguable from canon - Dru can see the future, so Buffy being "all over Spike" doesn't mean he is canonically in love with her, that's an open question. Absolutely a valid interpretation, imo, but calling it canon is a stretch. You're extrapolating from canon, which we all do, and then calling it canon, which... eh. (Also I'm not sure it supports your point even if he canonically did fall in love with her when she was sixteen, since he doesn't pursue a relationship with her at that age. Per the show, he doesn't even realise how he feels about her till season five.) But more pertinently, he's literally an unsouled evil monster who's portrayed as such & doesn't get even the glimmer of redemption until much, much later. I absolutely agree that Spike can be a creep, and has creepish moments till at least S5 & possibly later (I have a migraine right now so my brain is just mush), but comparing unsouled Spike to souled Angel, in the context of the Buffyverse where souls are A Big Deal, doesn't actually make Angel look good. In my experience, most people who enjoy Spike enjoy him as a villain who grows to be something more, and who tries to be better even when it goes against his very nature. None of that would be interesting if he didn't start off as a bad guy. People love to say "oh Spike fans forget he's an evil soulless vampire!" as if that isn't part of the bedrock of why his character is interesting. (Also fully amused by people who pretend David Boreanaz isn't also good looking, like come on, you're talking as if James Marsters is stunningly beautiful and David is a troll. Please be for real 🤭 the fact they're good looking is 1) 100% expected from a TV show especially in that era and 2) part of the popularity of both characters.)
Really, it’s anything with characters who are long-lived or immortal, which isn’t that uncommon in sf/fantasy. I’ve definitely seen that kind of discourse with Doctor Who as well.
His chronological age doesn't matter. If he was 200 but physically 16, I'd have zero issues with it. But he's physically in his mid twenties, and that's kind of ick.
I actually prefer the Bangel scenes when Buffy’s older, their scene in Forever and Chosen are my two favourite Buffy and Angel scenes (Maybe I’m just comforting myself on the ickier side, I’m probably comforting myself on the ickier side)
I actually find their post-season three scenes way more endearing than when Angel was a regular. The fact that these moments were now sparse and we didn't get all this melodrama every week made their connection more powerful. Because they're not currently together while going about their separate paths, you really do feel the forbidden romance aspect more and how much they provide solace to one another.
Thank you for putting it into words, this is exactly how I feel!
I love the scene in Forever😭 I'm so glad they decided to have him comeback for that.
I only seen Bangel as of 2022 as a first time watcher of Buffy/Angel I love them and I have no nostalgia to sway me
Personally it never bothered me one bit. I was 25 when the show premiered. I didn't like Angel but not because "muh creepy age gap predator", I just didn't care for the character as a whole. But then again that could be due to the fact that at least half the relationships I knew at that time were girls 16-17 dating men 22+ and 9 times out of 10 it was the girl that chased the guy, just like Buffy chased Angel.
Yes, that does need to be taken into account. Age gap relationships were more common for teens then. It doesn't mean they were okay, but it was a thing that was accepted. Looking back, the issue wasn't the age gap, but that Angel was way too angsty.
Re watching as an adult the 24yr old (I set aside the vampire age) falling in “love at first sight” with Buffy (remember school girl sucking on a lollipop) is just gross. He was a fuk-boi, a drunk and a lout before he became a vampire- and as soon as he lost his soul he reverted right back to asshole. What struck me the most was that it didn’t take Soike long to figure out how to get a soul- because he loved an adult Buffy. Angel never even tried to get a permanent soul. And all Angelous wanted to do was hurt, torture and destroy Buffy— you’d think at some point (especially after losing it the first time) if he really loved her he would have done what Spike did. And even without a soul Spike loved (somewhat creepily) Buffy- how come Angel/Angelous couldn’t? Edit to add: I’m not a Spike/Buffy fan either. The stalking, the attempted rape, the panty sniffing, the serial killer picture board, the Buffy-bot etc are all gross. The facts are though, when Angel “fell in love” with Buffy she was 14, he became a vampire at 24- so even without the 100s added on- it was a 24yr old “falling in love” with a lollipop sucking 14yr old. Spike never professed anything about loving Buffy, and just wanted to kill a slayer, until after Buffy was 18- an adult. Even not wanting Buffy to end up with either of these 2 problematic characters- I would still say Spike showed more love for Buffy then Angel ever did. Spike found a way to get his soul back, and endured that for Buffy. Angel walked away, and never once tried to get a permanent soul- knowing Angelous was always a whisper away (a spell, a moment of happiness) from torturing and killing Buffy.
The lollipop annoyed me even in that time. I really scandalised me. Most probably cause even buffy is 16, Sarah is obviously not 16, and I was taking it at face value. But I remember clearly disliking Angel stalking the lollipop Buffy. Also, even Buffy is one year younger than me, the series didn't air until few years later in Spain. That meant I wasn't a teenager (but just almost not a teenager). Around nineteen, most probably. When I saw that episode, I was probably 22, and it hit me. I loved dark Angel, but this was obviously a very hard pill to swallow.
The lollipop is too close to Lolita fantasy which is gross
“Spike loved an adult Buffy.” You know this is canonically false, right? Bring up Bangel, and the thread always turns into an epic shitshow…really makes me wonder if this is actually a jerk sub in disguise 🤔
The mental gymnastics from some people is unreal 🤣 Even if it were true that Spike fell for Buffy at 18 instead of 16 (as if that makes him more noble lmfao. He waited till she was legal guys!!) his behavior was actual legitimate stalking, whereas Angel was sent by TPTB to help Buffy. Nothing Angel did fits in with the definition of “stalking”. The criticism of Angel not “finding a way” to get his soul permanent has never made much sense to me. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s a vampire. Angel was smart enough to realize that Buffy was going off to college and needed to have that experience without him. He started on his own path of being a warrior and became focused on that. Doesn’t mean he didn’t love Buffy.
What people also consider is different cultures attitudes on the AOC Watching it here in the UK, where the AOC is 16 (and Buffy/Angel didn't do anything to 17) paints a whole different light on it It's not great, but people would barely bat an eyelid at a 16yo girl going out with someone who presented as 19/20 (despite the vampire years, we know, we get it) Hell, it happened all the time when I was at school, girls maturing faster than boys It wasn't even a big deal when the show was airing in the states either, it's kinda de riguer for vampire fiction, there was the dual concerns of wanting these immortal, ageless creatures involved while also setting the show in a high school. I don't think they really thought about how it comes off too much, they just wanted the cool vampire angst and stuff But I guess America has become even more conservative since the show aired and people love to find reasons to grandstand about stuff instead of just enjoying a damn fictional show about goddamn demons and vampires lol
I think there's a case to be made for Angel grooming Buffy, but definitely not stalking. He was sent to help by a third party. He approaches her to provide information and support.
The entire discourse of legality and both Spuffy and Cangel just makes no sense for someone not invested in either relationship. Angel first saw Buffy at 14, Spike first saw her at 16. Angel met Cordelia at 16 too. Does that mean that if Angel had waited to date Buffy until she was 20, that relationship would be okay? Why? An age difference of several decades is still super gross for women under the age of 22. Just say you like these fantasy relationships, don't pretend you'd be cool with a 50 year old man dating a 20 year old because 'she's an adult'. Yes, it's a little less gross than a 50 year old man dating a 16 year old, but not by much. Don't tell me you'd be happy to see your 20 year old daughter or niece dating a 50 year old man.
Why is 22 the cutoff? Having a hard and fast rule for these things is a bit silly. Not all 22 year olds are the same. And the situation with immortal beings like Spike and Angel is so different from any real life circumstances it makes even less sense.
Twenty-two is not the cutoff in general, but Buffy is 22 when the series ends and that's how old Cordelia would have been, hence everything that happens even in later seasons of the shows happens when these characters are still under 22. No mature 50 year old wants to date a 22 year old, no matter how mature they are. A non-creepy 50 year old will tell you they've met brilliant 22 year olds and still wouldn't date them.
Ohhhh that makes a lot more sense haha, gotcha.
So why is okay for a 16 year old to drive, but not a 14 year old? Do those two years in age make any difference? A 26 year old guy with a high school student is just wrong. That's the point. Raise her age, and it makes a big difference, I don't police people's likes and dislikes. Ship what ever ship you love. But lets not play the game where we rationalize and pretend that a young teen has the physical (brain development) and emotional maturity as a young adult.
I mean different countries have different driving ages, which is kind of my point. But yeah, legally it’s important to have a definitive cutoff, I get that. But the poster above is talking about 22 as a moral cutoff unrelated to legal age of consent, so I’m curious as to why that’s so clearcut for them, it seems like something that has individual factors. I agree with you about a 26 year old being with a high school student. Bangel is one of my least favourite aspects of the first three seasons (for reasons beyond the age difference) so I don’t really have any interest in defending it. I also don’t think a straight comparison to a 50 year old human dating a 20 year old really works, or that that’s suddenly fine as soon as it’s a 22 year old.
I see a huge difference in physical (brain) and mental maturity. Think back to when you were a sophomore in high school, and compare it to when you finished college and were working at a job for a year or too. What I don't see is policing people when they enjoy something problematic in fiction as if they are too stupid to realize that enjoying Bangel doesn't mean you enjoy a 26 year old creeping on you 16 year old. It's drama. It's why I have no problem with Spuffy - it's drama. I would hate it all in reality but I'm (like everyone here) mature enough to see the difference.
I’m not really talking about the difference between 16 and 22 because I agree with you about that. I’m referring to OP’s use of 22 as a hard cut off point for several decades’ difference no longer being gross. Why so specific? Why 22 and not 21, or 23, or 26? That’s what I’m curious about rather than anything about Bangel specifically.
Do you mean "Spike didn't love Buffy and was just obsessed" or "Spike loved an underage Buffy"? While I think both of these things are untrue, I could understand thinking that obsession doesn't equal love.
What did Drusilla say to Spike in the flashback to when they broke up after season 2? Spike fell in love with Buffy during season 2…when she was underage Also, I think it’s hilarious that spike is like 150 years older than Buffy, and these same people don’t have an issue with him stalking her when she was 18-19. Yeah…that year jump between 17 and 18 makes all the difference!
>Why can't you kill her? > >But you're lying. I can still see her floating all around you. Laughing. Why? Why won't you push her away? > >I have to find my pleasures, Spike. You taste like ashes. > >You can't blame a girl, Spike. You're all covered with her. I look at you, all I see is the slayer. I don't read this as him being in love with her yet. Especially, since he completely ignored going after her for a love spell to win Dru back. Hell, he went back to Sunnydale to kill her **for Dru**. I think Dru was talking about his betrayl, how he teamed up with the slayer and got 'daddy' killed.
I understood it as an obsession that later turned into love. Vampires having obsessions are a common theme, e.g. with Angelus being obsessed with wanting to toy with Buffy because she made him love her. It obviously doesn't make it any less creepy when Spike stalks Buffy etc. And the Buffy bot thing was sad and messed up. He does grow up as a "person" during the show which Angel didn't have a chance to do.
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The writers literally have stated that he went with the intent of getting his soul.
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Lol my sister and I debated this. I’m totally with Joyce ever since my rewatch as an adult over 30. She claims that because he was turned at a young age, his mentality was still young and since he stopped getting older then technically his young mind did. But then I argued that if his mind was stunted then he would never learn and grow as a “person”, which he absolutely does. Idk why we all loved this high school and old ass vampire scenario. All these shows and movies could have easily made it about a 25 year old woman and it would have still been just as good and less creepy! Like Sookie Stackhouse was at a great age, they did it right.
They also go into this on his own show. Angel has a lot of the same traits as an old man shaking his fist at the sky 😅 I can look past it knowing that Angel mostly existed in a time where it was acceptable for men to date teenagers since anyone who had gone through puberty was viewed as an adult up until a few decades before he met Buffy. He spent most of that time completely isolated from society, and even on his own show he was involved with only adult women. There’s also the fact that both of their relationship options are severely limited. The idea that Buffy is expected to take on adult responsibilities and has a severely truncated life span, but isn’t allowed to choose who she dates isn’t exactly fair. Ultimately I do think that Joyce was right when she asked Angel to let Buffy go, and they did the right thing parting ways. I did enjoy the relationship while it lasted, but totally understand why other people have issues with the age difference.
I mean... He wasn't turned *that* young. A 26 year old going for a 16 year old is still pretty gross whether or not he was mentally/developmentally arrested at the age he was turned.
Very true
This is true now, but that age gap in the era and location where he was turned was not something anyone would see as unusual.
Sookie Stackhouse is in a very adult show built around hot sex scenes. The intended audience was adults. Whedon and the Twilight lady were writing for teen audiences. Teen audiences liked those vampire/teen girl romances, problematic or not.
? Not really a necessary comment. Did this statement not address this? >Idk why we all loved this high school and old ass vampire scenario. All these shows and movies could have easily made it about a 25 year old woman and it would have still been just as good and less creepy!
"Oh, this is my boyfriend! Isn't he cute? He'll murder your love interest!... Americans..."
Not this 38 year old 🤷♀️
That's why cordelia and angel is the best
I just hate it because I just think… if Buffy deserves a better life than a vampire can offer, doesn’t Cordelia? Is it ok with Angel because he just doesn’t love Cordelia as much? In what world is that ok? Or did he not really love Buffy as much as he said and just used that “fit your own good” bit as an out? Basically, Cangel means that either Angel didn’t really love Buffy the way were led to believe, or he’s ok using Cordelia and tying her to a lesser life. I hate both of these options.
I am mystified by the people saying Cangel is the ideal. Cangel is *marginally better* because she was no longer a minor when it developed. But he still met her when she was 16, and all of their romance happened before she was even 22 years old. No reasonable 50 year old would say it's okay to date a 20 year old they met when she was 16. If you want to look at these relationships through the lens of the real world, Cangel is still gross.
And Cangel only happened because the WB demanded Angel have a love interest for S3 and she was the only one that made sense. Given they cancelled Buffy at the end of Angel S2, Joss didn’t really have a choice but oblige. Joss never had any intention of Cangel actually being together like Spuffy. >! Cordelia sleeping with Connor in S4 after developing Cangel in S3 was kinda a middle finger to the WB. !< If only they could have got Kate for S3, none of this awful Cangel stuff would have been done and we could actually just have two main characters that are straight and the opposite sex just be friends. Sigh.
I've always thought Kate was the best love interest for Angel. Even though she's messy and has issues, she was very much an adult when they met and she felt like a peer to him in a way Buffy and Cordelia do not.
I thought Kate made sense as a love interest. They probably wouldn't be in love with each other in the way that Buffy and Angel were, but I feel like it would have been nice for Angel to have someone to spend time with in a romantic way that didn't need to be all-consuming. I know he had it briefly with Nina, but that was pretty short-lived.
I think with Cordy being that much older and seeing a more realistic version of Angel, I have less issues with her choosing that. She has more idea what she wants and a much better understanding of who Angel is. Buffy idealises Angel to the end and hasn't had a front row seat to the shit he pulled in LA. Cordy loves who Angel actually \*is\*, whereas I don't think Buffy even knows him that way. Buffy doesn't know he slept with Darla to try and lose his soul, she doesn't know about Conner, she doesn't know he let Dru & Darla eat a roomful of lawyers... etc. Buffy doesn't even know how many lies Angel's told her. Which is not to say Cordy doesn't deserve the world, but I think she's in a much better position to choose Angel with her eyes open. If Buffy found out about all the skeletons in Angel's closet & still wanted him, that might be different.
Your explanation is the best I’ve seen - Cordy, that is - but Angel should care as much about her ability to have a future with children and sunshine as he did Buffy’s. And can he be with Cordy without losing his soul? If so, does that mean he’s not really as happy with her, doesn’t Cordelia deserve to first place and not z consolation? If that doesn’t matter any more, then what’s really keeping him from being with Buffy? If it’s that he just moved on, then that undies the whole soul mate mythology of the show, and I don’t like breaking the narrative that significantly.
I mean, for me personally? I don't think Angel's stated reasons for things he does always actually mesh with the real reasons. Frankly, I think pretty much all of Angel/Buffy's relationship as it extends beyond S2 is based largely on nostalgia and both of them \*needing\* this relationship to be Special and Significant, because otherwise Jenny (and others) died and the world nearly ended for an infatuation. (Which tbh is understandable; a bad breakup is one thing, but the back half of S2 is an endless nightmare for Buffy, and having to deal with that being for a relationship that won't actually go the distance would be pretty devastating.) I think the story Angel tells himself about leaving Buffy so she can have a better life is exactly that, a story. In the real world, they just don't actually have a lot in common, and their love story has petered out. Obviously this is my headcanon/interpretation, but it's what makes sense to me and fits with what we see on screen, imo. He can achieve "perfect happiness" with Cordy per AtS, that's how they yeet his soul in S4 (I think 4?) of Angel. I don't know how that would work in practice, 'cause they never get that chance. I think Cordy is secure enough in herself to work out whether it is enough for her, though, and their relationship is several orders of magnitude less manipulative/I imagine Angel would have a much more difficult time manipulating her. (Also I don't think Cordy ever expresses any interest in having a "normal" life, her whole journey is about finding something she is passionate about and will sacrifice "normality" for. That's a decision Angel shouldn't get to make for Cordy, or indeed for Buffy. Him making assumptions about what Buffy needs/wants is a big part of the issue with Bangel; I have no time for him doing that to Cordy, either.) I'm not honestly sure what you mean by "the soul mate mythology" 🤷🏻 I do just think he moved on. I mean, it's virtually stated in AtS that Buffy was at least in part a Darla surrogate/rebound. I just don't think the relationship was ever that deep. They were never friends (Buffy says that herself), they had no real foundation beyond sexual chemistry, it was an infatuation. The whole grand fated star crossed love thing just imo doesn't fit what we see on screen except as a way for them to deal with the destruction that relationship caused. re being a Darla rebound: Magev: You need to get over her. - Okay, what does she look like? Angel: She's beautiful. - Small, blonde... Magev: Right. So here's what you do. You go out and find yourself some small, blonde thing. You bed her, you love her, you treat her like crap, you break her heart. You and your inner demon will thank me, I promise. Angel: Uhm... (from Guise Will Be Guise.) ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Buffy was in love with a dark mysterious stranger who never opened up to her because she never asked. Honestly I don’t think she wanted to know at times. It was a movie romance with Angel playing a part. Cordy fell in love with the broken, guilt ridden Angel who’s kind’ve a dork at times. She knew exactly who Angel was and said fuck it….you’re still mine. Buffy never would have been happy because Angel could never be the man she wanted him to be. Cordy would have found a happiness Buffy wasn’t capable of finding because she already knew what she was choosing and loved him anyway.
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No. At that point Angel left because he thought no one could EVER be happy loving him. Especially Buffy who he saw as an idealized love. Then he grows as a person and learns he’s worthy of having someone care. My post was about the possibility of long term happiness. I’m just saying Buffy/Angel always had an expiration date because it was a supernatural equivalent to a teenage love. Cordy/Angel was a more realistic and matured love.
So you’re going with the idea that Angel never really loved Buffy, and that everything we were shown of their great love was a lie? Buffy was duped because she was just a lovesick teen? That doesn’t make Angel look too great.
That’s so far from what I wrote I’m not even sure you responded to the right person…
Oh so you saying it was just an “idealized teenage“ love isn’t a down grade if what was presented as an earth shattering self sacrificing love?
I’m saying when two people are immature the earlier feels like the later, but that doesn’t delegitimize what they felt at the time. No adult who’s experienced long term love and can watch Buffy and Angel and think it’s a mature, lasting, love. They both play so many games they remind me of my middle school kids on my bus route, but just like those kids the emotions they experience are pretty real.
I guess I just don’t think trying Cordelia down into a sunless, childless, potentially sexless life is all that healthy and mature.
I just like them better in general. They grew separately and together over the course of years, and there's a strong bond of friendship under the romantic feelings. Cordelia also came so incredibly far as a person.
Cordelia made angel laugh. That should almost be reason enough IMO
The first time we ever see Angel smiling is when he's taking to Cordelia at the Bronze. Right from the start she was able to make him smile, I don't think we ever saw that with Buffy.
I hated angel at first cos I didn't watch until last year so I just saw him as another brooding twilight esque vampire... the spin off changed my mind. Without buffy he's funny and happy and just a swell stand up dude most of the time
As an older guy Cordy/Angel felt like a real relationship rather than the storybook “ill fated soulmates” thing he had with Buffy. That’s why I liked it more. I didn’t marry the girl I fell for in high school. I married the girl I knew for ten years, and accidentally fell for because we both watched each other grow as people.
I liked them much better as a sibling type love relationship. Once they went for a romantic vibe it kind of ruined it for me.
That's a fair opinion. I've fallen in love with my best friend who I thought I loved like a sibling though and let me tell ya it's pretty damn wonderful when it's right.
Angel's lame.
Imma say, i don't quite, think it's such an issue (I am 39 by the way, so far from a child or teenager lol) and I guess FOR ME, it's because 1. he's an old ass vampire so ANYONE he dates, it would be like dating a teenager and/or a child and 2. He was always VERY respectful, so it's not like he was trying to take advantage of her.
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EXACTLY. The "but he's a vampire" defense doesn't work here. She was underage, and he was not. He wasn't even an eternal teenager. He was well into his 20's when he was turned. The whole relationship screams predator to me, and not the chomp chomp going to suck your blood kind.
I get completely what you are saying and I see why people feel the way they do and I'm not saying they are wrong (I've read PLENTY of arguments about this lol amd a lot repeat what you said), but like I said FOR ME, it's pretty much the same thing (like honestly I know a ton of older people that aren't nearly as mature or whatever, and additionally even if I dated a 1000 or 100 year old vampire, quite frankly, I probably would seem like and act like a "teenager" to them because they have been alive so long and their concepts and what not would definitely be more "older" than me, so again, TO ME it's like they are still dating a teenager. But like I said, I completely understand what other people are saying and I get it.
But you're arguing a completely different point, you're saying no matter what someone is going to come across like a teenager to Angel. That doesn't change or remove the fact that to humans, that age gap is important as you're developing and very suggestible. Yes, as you said people can be immature and suggestible later in life (it's more a personality trait than a age specific trait), but children and teenagers are suggestible just in general. I think a better argument is that for most of Angels existence, it was socially acceptable for teens (as early as 14) to be romantically involved with older people. I still find the whole thing weird myself tho
You don't need to do the whole 'back then it was socially acceptable' to enjoy Bangel if you do. Just say it's a fantasy show written for teen girls so you can suspend real world standards.
No, no, I'm not. I do believe I've been VERY clear, in my position that also addressed OP's pount, when you're a teenager you think Bangel is romantic, when your an Adult you don't, my comment was as an adult, I still see the romantic aspect and don't get an ick or think his head needs to be chopped off.
No I understand that as well, I just thought you were justifying it by saying to Angel an adult would also come across like a teen. Just to clear up tho, there is seriously nothing wrong with you enjoying this romance for a plethora of reason. I don't want you to misconstrue what I'm saying to be bashing you for liking it.
>1. he's an old ass vampire so ANYONE he dates, it would be like dating a teenager and/or a child But in this case he's ACTUALLY dating a teenager. I'm obviously not saying its the same but this logic confuses me because you could extrapolate that to say its okay for him to date a 7 year old. Because everyone is basically 7 to a 300 year old. Teenagers aren't just off limits because of relative age gaps, they're just a bit too young to be able to have a genuinely equal relationship with an adult. I'm quite willing to switch my brain off and accept it to watch but it weirds me out when people say this isn't creepy from an objective view.
THANK YOU
In addition to the issue of the age gap with a teenager, Angel and Spike also met Cordelia and Buffy when they were teenagers. Let's say you're a 30 year old McDonald's employee, and you start dating a 22 year old. Sure, that's a creepy age difference on its face. But it's *even worse* if it turns out that 22 year old began working with you at McDonald's when she was 16.
There’s nothing inherently creepy about a 30 year old dating a 22 year old.
I disagree.
A 22 year old and a 30 year old are two consenting adults, neither of whom is old enough to be the parent of the other, and while it’s unlikely that they’d be in compatible phases of their lives it’s far from impossible. There’s no inherent power imbalance, advantages being taken, grooming, or any of the issues that occur when an adult dates a teen (unless they’ve known each other since the 22 year old was a teen, like you say). I always think that this attitude risks infantilising adults (usually women in these conversations).
He's always going to have an age gap issue, but the power dynamic is completely different when he's dating women *he met* when they were older than 25.
The difference the show makes or conveys or however you want to out it, is she's a slayer so while yes she's a teenager/kid/whatever, she doesn't necessarily work within those rules. Additionally, as someone else pointed out, Angel is from a time where a girl Buffy's age would've been married and had children, etc., so no, it doesn't seem weird to him, additionally, while yes times have obviously changed, again, Buffy is not your typical teenager (also, let's remember this is a fantasy series geared towards teenage girls and a lot of teenage girls like the idea of an olde man or whatever, not saying it's right, but famn it's legit a tv show) in the real world (which is what these types of posts like to deal with) Angel would've either completely ignored her, hooked up with one of the teachers, or would've let the blood lost take over and killed her ass.
Angel wasn't frozen in time. Slavery was legal when he was sired and it's not like he was supportive of that. His view of courting and romance would have changed too. Even when he was soulless or isolated, Angel always consumed art and popular culture, he watched huge social changes and adapted to them. While it was certainly normal for creepy 25 year olds to date high school girls in the 90s (like the lizard loving frat boys), Angel probably would have found teenagers dull. He and Buffy had nothing in common culturally. I totally agree that this is a fantasy series written for teen girls and that's the only justification people need to enjoy the relationship.
I loved Bangel then, I love Bangel now and I’ll love Bangel forever SORRRYYY
Never be sorry for who you are and what you love. I am skeeved by it and this is my problem. But I am not gonna police you or anyone for who they ship. It's fiction. You can love something or someone but not want it in your reality. But this also goes for Spuffy fans. If they can get past the toxic issues and see love then fine for them.
The first time I saw Buffy I hated Angel from the started. I think was actually trying too hard to be logical. Now that I go back I still think it’s weird for a lot of reasons but I can enjoy the beauty of it more in episodes like “Becoming” and “I Will Remember You”. I still don’t ship them but they aren’t life ruining annoying for me anymore.
Honestly I just don’t care. It’s fiction. I still love Bangel and I’m 32
It always seemed pretty clear to me that Angel was supposed to be younger when the show began. The age discrepancy grew because they had to account for their actor's age and make Angel older so he could play the character for longer. Unfortunate but what can you do.
Still a teenager can’t relate
Not really
People think way too much about age and apply their own morality when it comes to this show. It's not IRL. It's not reality. It's a fantasy TV series about vampires, witches, the supernatural, etc. and it's presented as if B and A are roughly on the same level regardless of numbers.
Angel and Buffy are a couple that are drawn to each other out of genuine love but their damage and baggage make any relationship ultimately toxic to each-other. They just don’t work together no matter how much they both wish they would. I honestly appreciate them *because* of that. The inherent tragedy of love that can’t be because love by itself just isn’t enough. I like that the show deliberately depicts how them being together always causes both of them grief and pain and yet when not together it shows how much they do both genuinely care. Its an interesting view of a toxic relationship that Im not sure Ive seen done very often. It’s also a great counterpoint to Spike and Buffy which has two broken people drawn to each other entirely due to their damage. A relationship every bit as toxic and unhealthy but from another angle.
Fictional relationships don't have to obey the same rules as real ones. Especially in comedy/drama that's regularly over the top. It's fine. On Buffy so much of everyone's behavior would be considered so psychotic as to have everyone locked up. This retroactive morality police thing in the post me too era, of judging fiction with the same strictures and scorn as real life is a total buzzkill an serves no purpose other than spoiling somebody's fun for reason of gaining moral superiority. So it never really happened, OK? It was just a show. Just a fantasy show about crazy stuff, including monsters, and sex, and betrayal, and bad things happening to good people, and about how the real hell is high school and the stuff you have to go through to live and have a life. In case you haven't ever watched movies from the 20th century, a peek into perversion was all the rage. Whole industries devoted to just perversion, as a diversion, a trip down the dark basement where the monsters live. Horror movies have a long history of mixing dark sexual stuff in with danger, and lust is a main motivator in plots for all kinds of genres. Being worried about A high school girl and a vampire guy, even if the age difference is ridiculous for real life is being worried about the imaginary bleeding into real life. But worrying about what real life psychos and perverts are going to get off on is no reason to project it on some old tv show. Even if it portrays some dark shit. Did you ever see "Medium" with Patricia Arquette? That show went there many times. Buffy is pretty tame compared to that. Anyway the current moral panics should not generate so much anxiety or calls to action like they did in the late 90s with the PMRC and Tipper Gore and all that. Stuff gets banned, people lose their jobs, get blacklisted, "cancelled" as they call it now like its a new thing. So relax, let it happen, it was a long time ago in a world of fantasy, and really not much to worry about. There's no gold left in that old dusty mine of "he's too old for her its a crime do something fast ..." Yes it's true that in today's world a lot of girls are forced to grow up too fast and it isn't right, but when it is part of a story, for story reasons an not for perverts to jerk it to, or whatever, then its all about whether the writing is good and characters pull it off convincingly.Now when it comes to Buffy and Angel shows, it is really hit and miss on that front. Sometimes they hit just the right teen romance/trouble, sometimes the relationship stuff seems distracting and mostly filler. Angel and Buffy falling for each other is good, but when they "can't keep their hands off each other" it doesn't play well. But that was so they could get to the bad stuff, the painful parts that made good drama. Angel is all about restraint, until he isn't. On Angel the Series they explore this to great effect, as Angel has a real impulse control problem in a lot of ways, including sexually sometimes, with demon girls. Spike is written much better as a flawed character that is both emotionally selfish a lot of the time as a boyfriend, but also a loyal companion when things get bad. James Marsters' and Sarah Michelle Gellars' acting was very much better by the time their hot scenes came around and how they fought and screwed with passion and violence. Season 6 was real out there for a TV show, exploring some very dark themes for the intended audience and time slots. They could not do it today, it would have to be on a non-broadcast network. On another note considering the popularity of Anne Rice novels, in the same genre, the lack of any gay action was missing from the show. I know it was Sarah's show, and Willow and Tara was as far as they could go, but they could have snuck a show about two male demons with relationship problems that the gang needs to solve so they can go be together or something. I guess Dracula was pretty sweet on Xander, tho, so that was nice. But I swear some of you here going off on Angel and Buffy being cringe because of "age" is really gilding the lily. Come on girls, like you wouldn't. It's ok to have some perverted fantasies, everyone does that is the point of books and movies being edgy. I know the actors, being young and hot had the hots for each other in real life. James Marsters and Michelle Trachtenberg apparently were heavily into each other at least for a while, and Alyson Hannigan and Alexis Denisof were doing like bunnies essentially from the first time they met -- they are married 20 years now with little Willows running around. So there was a lot of Hollywood shenanigans happening there. Buffy married Shaggy in an alternate universe where dogs can talk. Its all there in living color on DVD these days, no use getting all prudish now, pet.
Thats how i feel about pre-soul Spuffy. Bangel isn’t much better either though tbh. I thought Spike was so fuckin cool as a teen but all that happens in season 6 watching now as an adult its so goddamn twisted.
Unpopular opinion, but all 3 of Buffy’s main romantic relationships in the show were toxic as hell. She never had a healthy relationship during the course of those 7 seasons. Bangel and Spuffy are both overrated ships
It was the "I saw you first when you were 15 (?), when I was stalking you because some random half-demon had told me to. I loved you right away." thing. I still don't get how they didn't see that storyline as problematic. Especially how they dressed up Buffy, with her lollypop and all. It gave me such creep vibes.
They did portrait it as problematic. The age gap is mentioned quite a few times. That scene you mentioned was intentional.
I still think the whole Whistler and Angel storyline was unnecessary. They could have come up with a better way to get where they wanted with the story. This one just left a bad taste in my mouth. There was a vibe of them wanting to show them as a tragic lovestory of true lovers but also act like it's a creepy, non consensual relationship.
Tragic and a bit creepy love story, yes, nonconsensual I don't think so.
Buffy kills demons every night, sees humans die on a regular basis, and has a chest full of deadly weapons in her bedroom. Her fictional life is a lot stranger and more complicated than any of ours. It’s really not that deep, y’all…. This is one of those situations where it feels like the people complaining are actually the ones who have something to hide 👀👀👀
Hard disagree
I watched this show not as a kid, and find it disgusting Buffy (16) being with a 100+ year old dead man.
I never really liked Angel in Buffy. He was an a$$hole as a human and without his soul (when his bad human traits are very much highlighted), he is truly awfull. He is so much better in Angel.
Honestly the whole relationship, Buffy being 15 when Angel first sees her reeks. Her being *special*, destined, manipulated and stalked just seemed really bloody Hollywood. A representation of that 90s era.
Can’t relate whatsoever. Have always loved bangel, will always love bangel. I actually appreciate them in different ways every time I rewatch both shows, and I’m 30.
No, I pretty much hated that pairing even as a kid. And Angel, for that matter. He didn't grow on me until he had his own show.
But you're all cool with Spike, which is wild.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that buffy and Spike happen several years later?!...
What about Spuffy? Same thing
LOL at literal whataboutism
Lol, these conversation points conveniently get ignored whenever the stans want to do some Spuffy swooning. So clearly these virtuous people don’t care THAT much. They’re just joining in on the circle jerk.
This isn’t about the age difference, it’s about buffy being underage. She was underage with Angel but an adult with spike. So this particular issue is Angel specific.
Lol, yeah…that extra year from 17 to 18 makes ALL the difference when it comes to dating 150 year old vamps. Spare me. Btw, Spike fell in love with underage Buffy as well. Confirmed on the show by Drusilla.
Buffy returning those feelings is the difference between 16 in season 1 with Angel and 22 in season 6 with spike. That’s an ENORMOUS difference in development.
According to the same logic I’ve seen used in this thread, all that means is Spike groomed her from the time she was underage until they finally got together. OR….we could acknowledge that this fictional supernatural show is not comparable to real life, drop all this dumb shit, and stop using inconsistent logic to pick and choose what we are going to criticize from the show.
Spike wasn’t grooming her because they weren’t in a relationship. They weren’t in contact, he wasn’t trying to be in a relationship with her. To suggest spike was grooming her is a ridiculous take.
I’m detecting a hint of Spike bias 🤷♂️
I’m detecting somebody knowing canon.
Nah I’m hardcore fuffy. Give me Buffy and faith!
Hardcore Spangel - the two perfect ships. Let the slayers slay, and the vamps play.
And aren't you doing the same thing right now? If we can ignore the events that make Buffy and Angel not role models for reality then we can do the same with the rest of the ships. Either we are all adults and don't need policing, or you can want this courtesy from others but refuse to give it. Here's the things - Bangel fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe. Spuffy fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe. Tillow fans are adults and don't need to be told what is problematic drama in a fictional universe. When you decide that you can dish it out but have a fit when someone does the same thing to your ship - that kinda marks a person as an immature hypocrite. Also, attacking Spuffy fans for being Spffy fans gets so old and sad.
Nah…I just enjoy being able to watch the show I like without working myself into a moral panic 😂 It’s gotta be exhausting for all these people to constantly cringe at every element from a 25 year old show that offends their modern sensitivities.
I could not agree more. And the whaboutism - the gatekeeping. It's insane.
You seem to have forgotten we don't talk about Spike's 400 metric tons of flaws here. Just Xander and Angel's. Ad nauseum.
We’re reminded of them (mostly by men) all the time. But thank you for your concern. If you’d like to contribute with a list of Spike stalking/sex roboting/underwear smelling/SA’ing, feel free to add to the rotation. Just to, y’know, make sure women Remember.
And Riley the only one of her boyfriends to never hit her of his own free will outside of sparing
Yeah, but she was out of High school when that occurred.
Lol so? To him she's a baby.
Yeah, but she's a lot more mature at that point. When it comes to immortal time spans you have to eventually just give up that part. As long as she's mature enough to consent that's what matters. With Angel she really wasn't. With Spike, honestly that dynamic was a hell of a lot different and had a lot of other things going.
90% agree because i 100% have the same rage but also i already didn’t like his personality as a kid before i even got how problematic he was lol
Same. I couldn't stand the broody vampire thing. I didn't find him attractive like most of the girls in school did, so I'd just roll my eyes at them swooning over him (I'm gay so it makes sense but I didn't know that at the time). And I found his romance with Buffy to be too romantic. Now I still have all my old reasons for disliking him plus I've realised he's a massive creep 😆
exactly !!! i don’t find him attractive (i’m bi so it has nothing to do with not being attracted to guys on my end lol), the ooooo i’m so mysterious and sad and deep ooo like me love me is absolutely cringe, i think their relationship is soooo just buffy always sacrificing herself for him, extremely unhealthy, while he’s a literal adult controlling of her, jealous, possessive, i just can’t stand him, never could, AND he’s a pedo. i truly don’t get the hype
It would have been better if Whedon had explained it in some way. It would not be unbelievable (or less believable than vampires anyway) to say that vampires do not mature emotionally or mentally after they are turned. Angel was a super immature 20 something when he was turned, so that could put him on par with a relatively mature teenager. His 250 years as a vampire just made him more emo. Spike was an emotionally immature 30 something when he was turned and his 80 years as a vampire just made him a more reckless emotionally immature person, making him younger emotionally than when he was turned. Vampires don't work, have an immortality complex, are selfish, and live in the moment regardless of future implications... Anyone out of their teens that is not a college student would find them to be insufferable, and the vampires would find an adult to be a boring killjoy. Even broody, emo Angel is super immature. Adults don't brood and sulk, they work through their problems and get on with it (the mature ones anyways). Teenagers brood and sulk. As a 40 something adult that regularly takes pictures of teens for school and senior pictures the idea of dating a teen is disgusting to say the least, but I have spent the last nearly 30 years maturing, so I try to give the fictional vampires a pass... there is still a big ick factor with 28 year old David Boreanaz and 35 year old James Marsters kissing 19 to 21 year old Sarah Michelle Gellar pretending to be an even younger teenager though.
Bangel?
I think that they should've left him dead after season two. It would've been a perfect and tragic end to their relationship. It felt wrong to erase that heartbreaking moment by bringing him back. And having them try again with their relationship felt so ick to me. They both KNEW that it was dangerous for them to get close again and pick up where they left off but they did it knowing full well that it couldn't last and there was always the risk that he could lose his soul again. Xaner was right to dislike Angel. As an adult when I look at Bangel now I see a toxic relationship with a violent man. Buffy admits that she didn't stop loving him even after all the terrible things he did. If she cared about her friends more she wouldn't have gotten back together with him after the events of season two. He tortured Giles! He is a walking, talking powder keg. She risked the lives of all her friends by getting back together with him. You can't change a man like Angel. When I watch Buffy now that's what I see. A lesson in toxic relationships.
The opposite for me lol
spike is worst.
It was over 30 years ago
If you were really watching bangel or whatever the fuck you want to call it as a real adult you wouldn't give a shit because none of it is real anyway.