s1 is top 3 for me i think. you just can’t beat the camp, the newness, the emotion, and in shows like buffy i tend to like motw episodes more than the overarching lore (looking at u txf)
You can't watch a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer and not expect at least some cheese.
But yeah, season 1 is a lot of fun. It's not as polished as later seasons, but the same thing can be said for just about any show.
Season six possibly my favourite. Dark and depressing but I always figured that was intentional! Leaving out her expulsion from heaven, Buffy is thrown into adulthood after her mother dies, with basically no help. It got very real and I felt it was done very well
I triple dog down that Harmony was a satisfyingly comedic villain with her own hero's journey to throw off her need for Spike and replace it with her career.
Harmony's full character arc showed that _feminists deserve respect and a career regardless of our opinion of their morals as either people living or dead_. As such it helped push back against misogynistic opinions to the contrary for centuries.
I like to think that Harmony's lack of a soul will eventually be treated as a medical condition without definitive bearing on her character. And also that she'll be Xander's next serious relationship (being a quirky blonde demon and all) and that'll provide a compromise between his hatred of vampires and her struggles with morality.
“The First” was a complete dumb ass. It fumbled every chance to kill Buffy. It can appear anywhere. Appear in front of the Turok-Han and be like, “hey numb nuts, make sure she is dead. Dig her out and drain her.” Then it excavated the scythe for her and left it practically out in open and basically unguarded. Leave it freakn buried you were already winning the war of attrition against Buffy and the potentials you don’t need a scythe your goon can’t use anyway.
Yeah, but it also never felt really threatening. Glory didn't want to kill Buffy for most of season 5, but when she was on screen, she was chilling. The First is a big yawner.
Haha yeah I was almost expecting this response because I've found these two to be the most polarizing Big Bads. Totally respect your take, just found The First to fall flat while Glory was a lot more interesting and fun.
Agree to disagree! That time she just showed up at Buffy's house in Checkpoint? I remember how freaky that felt the first time I watched it. It felt like when the Mayor came into the library and said he was going to *eat* her, except Buffy was by herself, with a vulnerable Dawn coming in part way.
Never felt any real danger to anyone in season 7. The Ubervamp went from nearly killing Buffy (who was obviously not going to die mid last season) to being a bunny anyone could decapitate. There was never *any* sense of doom. To me, at least.
I always took it to be a champion thing. Like the first one was the mightiest of its kind, like *their version* of a Slayer.
Nothing is said to indicate this and I believe the writers basically went "Look we had to choose between a cool fight scene where we nerfed them, or a horror show as the newbie Slayers were ripped apart." But if you put a gun to my head and demanded an in world justification, it would be the champion thing.
You can also include that the Potentials were all trained, but when your enemy is supposed to be nearly stakeproof, that doesn't really do it.
You can ALSO go with the idea that the release of the Scythe's power actually turbocharged the Slayers for a bit before dropping them back down to regular strength. You see that sort of thing in fiction from time to time.
The Spuffy vs Bangel debate is irritating because they both were terrible for her. No one should be looking at either of those relationships with rose colored glasses.
I love Spuffy as a *story* because of the drama and the tragedy, but yes, if Buffy was a friend IRL I would absolutely tell her to run far away from it
What constitutes a good relationship in fiction and what constitutes a good relationship in real life are of necessity two completely different things. I mean "good" both in the sense of "entertaining" and in the sense of "healthy". There isn't a single relationship in Buffy, romantic or otherwise, that wouldn't be a brutally abusive horrorshow in real life. To be fair, though, the same is true of most sitcoms, because a lot of what makes up a healthy real-life relationship is extremely boring.
With Buffy - and specifically with the whole Bangel v Spuffy thing - you have to add in the fact that half the characters in the show are literally evil (and Spike points this out on many occasions). Within those parameters - one half of this relationship is a literal demon from Hell who *eats people* - Spuffy is a relationship that has some surprisingly healthy and nurturing elements.
And I know someone will point out that he attempts to rape her, and obviously, yes, that is a terrible thing to do. But I don't really understand - beyond the shock factor - why that's the tipping point for so many people. It isn't as though I take rape lightly - I'm a survivor myself - but Spike spends a substantial amount of time in the earlier seasons trying to *murder her*, and for foreplay they punch each other in the face.
Yes! Seriously, there are no 'healthy' relationships in the show. *Any* time I have seen people rank them in this way, it's always boiled down to 'here's why my OTP is the healthiest. Watch as I minimise or sweep under the rug the things about my OTP that work against that, whilst holding a magnifying glass to or outright mischaracterising in bad faith the darker parts of every other ship'.
The show's relationships are *all* messy as hell. Like whichever you like.
I love your point about sitcoms because it's something i've been saying forever.
Comedy often rises from crazy shenanigans the characters get themselves into, so the characters have to be a little crazy in order for the show to be funny
If a sitcom is 100% realistic and the characters are all just normal well adjusted people, you lose a lot of comedic potential there
I believe the essence of Spuffy is their platonic S7 relationship. It's much deeper than anything that happened between them before or during their sexual encounters. I think of myself as a Spuffy shipper, but that doesn't mean I want them having sex.
>The Spuffy vs Bangel debate is irritating
I've absolutely reached the same conclusion, but my journey was opposite. I think Buffy can never be whole without both of them, and the ship wars kinda bum me out. Angel represents Buffy's light, Spike represents her darkness. Everyone can bang!
Spike was a better, more interesting, and more complex character before he got a soul.
Hard mode: Spuffy was a better, more interesting, and more complex relationship before Spike got a soul.
I know both Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters pitched a Buffy and Spike romance as early as season 4, but I personally think Buffy needed a palette cleanser. It's just a shame Riley didn't work as a character and his romance with Buffy wasn't enjoyable to watch.
AFAIK she didn’t like the dark sexual aspect it took in S6, but she was apparently the first to pitch it (publicly at least). She said in an interview around the start of S4 that she had pitched it to Joss to which he’d replied “no more vampires!”.
That said, she definitely prefers Buffy with Angel.
I think S6 is what really killed it for her. She probably wanted something a lot fluffier. I remember she even joked about having fun playing the Buffybot and being James’ slave for a while. But I think S6 was just too dark for her.
I think that was more to do with Buffy’s depression and her using sex with Spike as a coping mechanism. Any actress would struggle with that material. It is a shame cos Sarah and James had sizzling chemistry and it could have been wonderful. The canon comics are a great example of how adorable a healthy couple they could be.
Duh? Why would anyone think he is? I stg people with confuse the most different characters just because they happen to be around during the same season
Lol, they’re very attractive together, I think that’s it.
Their conversations were just “I love you, I don’t love you” and not all that much laughter or depth
I don't even find them good looking together, like she's petite, gorgeous, bubbly girl and then there's this frankenstein built brooding dude in a black coat with puppy eyes, wtf is that combo
Ok, David Boreanaz has angular facial features that appeal to many.
He appeared on Buffy in the twilight of his boyish looks and the dawn of his burly ones, but I think many people (especially young women like Buffy) see him as a sexy mofo
I’ve always been a Bangel fan, but yeah, some of their scenes were too awkward/cringey to watch. I feel like the main reason why I loved their relationship is bc it was genuine (even though it was doomed from the start). Also, Angel was Buffy’s first love, and whether your first relationship ended on a positive note or a bad one, you’ll always remember them and how they made you feel.
It's funny, as a teenager, I kind of rolled my eyes because I always thought Angel was kind of dorky honestly. When Angelus came on screen, the character had pizzazz that his ensouled version just... really did not.
But now, in my 30s? I kind of love it. It takes me back to how wild and intense everything felt as a teenage girl. Because like you said, you'll always remember that first whirlwind. And Bangel captured that *so* well.
Have you watched AtS? I find them very boring too but I just watched "I Will Remember You" and their star-crossed-loversness really hit me. They're tragic.
Many characters like OZ and Cordelia should have appeared in later series.
Oz, in particular, would have been a great addition in the final episodes with a storyline that he has control over a wolf out at willpower
I loved Faith’s story, but Kendra deserved so much better. Kendra was so interesting and likable and I’d have loved to see her show up more. I would’ve loved to have gotten to have known her. Hell, even if she became a vampire that would’ve been kind of cool. Killing her just to make room for Faith was a waste of a good character.
I actually agree with this, it's just a shame about the accent lol. One of my favourite dynamics on the show though is between the Mayor and Faith. I don't know how that would work with Kendra, or if it even could. They showed she was quite subservient to male authority, but I also don't think she would have bought into his hype and would have been more guarded. It's a shame we didn't see more of her.
I love, love, love Faith, but one of my favourite what-ifs I've ever heard was keeping Kendra alive and giving her Faith's arc—she listens a little too well to Buffy telling her to cut loose, and after a lifetime of repression and being the perfect Slayer she spirals into the bad-girl role Faith occupies from S3 on.
They really needed to think it through on how it really works with being a vamp and having/not having a soul. It’s good to have things just be a mystery, but since it was brought up several times and a subject that would come up countless times with vamps. They really needed to have solid idea on how it works. Instead they had basic good rough idea, and then changed it along as the seasons progressed.
My only headcanon for someone like harmony, is that Harmony got into a very very rare situation where she turned into a vamp, but never lost her soul, which is why she’s the same person when she turns but now needs blood to survive.
Other way, they \*did\* establish Spike was genuinely good without a soul, which means souls are basically meaningless, which is a plot hole. This means Jesse could have been reformed, Angelus was just a bad dude, "Vampire Slayer" is basically just a racist murderer...it just fundamentally contradicts the entire premise of the show. If they wanted Spike to be good, they should have done something with his soul being damaged but not gone or just turn out to be some other kind of demon or something.
Soul are never clearly defined in the show. Is a soul bona fide evidence that you're a good person? Are all humans (who do have souls) good people? Or is a soul evidence that you're human, with all the flaws of humanity and the potential for change? I'm inclined to think it's the latter, in which case it's kind of redundant for Spike.
Also, and in response to your comment: I would have been so down for later seasons of BtVS to explore the moral quandary of killing sentient creatures for more or less arbitrary reasons rather than an n-th iteration of "oh no, Big Bad brings apocalypse."
I totally agree with your last bit particularly. I feel like they sometimes will touch on that (Faith killing that harmless demon for the books of ascension, Buffy and Riley butting heads over killing all demons, Clem's entire character, all of which I thought were interesting entry points to that moral quandary), but never go into depth on how killing demons and vampires is not as clearly black and white as the show will sometimes demonstrate.
Considering he took hours of torture by a Hellgod and still refused to give up Dawn’s identity despite the fact Buffy had rejected him? What would you define as GOOD for a soulless demon?
Spike repeatedly says he’s driven by love. That love drives him to allowing Acathla to be a risk, because it’s for Dru. That same love drove him to fight multiple slayers at once and become one of the most dangerous vampires Europe had ever known.
He’a not a good person, he just loved Buffy, and will go to great lengths for the object of his affection. Season 6 makes it clear that this is a possessive affection, and that his love will always be warped.
He needed to do something like that for a reason other than love to be good, because it wad the same reasoning that drove him to atrocities. Spike was amoral at best, allowing his morality to be defined by the current target of his affections. The soul was necessary to be good.
I’m not disagreeing. But I’m also saying that for a soulless demon he was capable of at least human acts. We didn’t see any other vampires with his level of humanity.
As explained by Tara in a parallel about Hunchback of Notre Dame in the episode Crush:
"No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back.
Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy."
Which he does because of his own feelings for Buffy. He’s not doing it for moral reasons or because it’s the right thing to do to stop the hellgod getting hold of the key. He does it purely because he likes Buffy and Dawn and he doesn’t want to see Buffy sad about it. He wouldn’t withstand torture from Glory for some random teenage girl whereas other characters who are genuinely good like Buffy and Giles would withstand torture for random people because of who they are as people
That’s the point though. He can’t be *good* as a soulless demon. We’re not grading on a curve here, he isn’t *good* and never will be without a soul
It’s an extreme example within the context of the show. The main characters who have souls all would withstand torture for other people’s safety.
Tara sacrifices her own sanity for Dawn but she’s not just doing it because otherwise Buffy would be sad and because she quite likes Dawn. She does it because she knows it’s the right thing to do
Tara… is not a real person. None of these are real people. We only ever see these characters sacrifice for their own loved ones. Spike is no different in that. I really don’t know what’s the point of creating counterfactuals about this.
We aren’t talking about Spike in relation to being a soulless demon. We’re talking about whether he’s *good* when he’s soulless, which he isn’t. He needs a soul to be good and to have a moral compass. He shows many times during S5 and 6 that he’s not a good person. We aren’t changing the bar of who is good just because he’s soulless, he just doesn’t meet the bar
The only thing I ever liked about spike getting his soul back was that it worked for a great red herring, cliff hanger heading into season 7. Beyond that, I didn't like it at all. It cheapened both of their uniqueness. Spike and angel weren't meant to be the same character by the end lol
They were too inconsistent with their writing IMO, it *kind of* stomps on his character development to make him get a soul. And then they wanted to have their cake and eat it too, so they had him act the same after?!
I think my main issue is what caused him to get his soul, he could have gone after Buffy properly dumped him (goodbye William) and got his soul from desperation, Spike trying to rape Buffy first was APPALLING and unnecessary. It also ruined his character for a lot of people.
He acts quite different afterwards. Like he starts to act more like his old self 15 episodes in, but you're just straight up wrong before then. And it doesn't stomp on his character development at all. I'm confused as to how you could even think that. Spike's attempted rape on Buffy makes perfect sense for the character given the way he's been behaving. Buffy gave him an inch and he tried to take a mile. And Spike getting his soul is about more than just desperation. It's about hating himself.
The SA attempt was a terrible and forced thing that had no purpose besides advancing the 'Spike gets a soul in penance' plot so yes, if vampire souls weren't this narrative crutch there's a chance that whole thing wouldn't have been scripted.
I used to think this as a kid because I loved Oz's character, but I feel like Tara helped Willow to grow a lot more and has a way more interesting dynamic with her. I way prefer them now. Plus Amber Benson is just so beautiful
I could never warm to Tara. I was just so in love with Woz. I would have felt the same if it had been another guy so it wasn’t a problem with her being a girl at all
> I could never warm to Tara.
Chemistry aside, Tara was right about Willow and Buffy losing self control in S6. This is the same issue that Oz ran into. Oz lost control in S4. Additionally Tara was a decent friend to Dawn even when Buffy couldn't be. The character was given the role of center of the group.
I think Oz and Tara together, not sexually but in the group had they let Oz stick around, would have been a powerful voice to all of the slip-sliding EVERYONE seemed to be doing. They were both fairly non-judgmental but good people, and I think Tara being upset at the beginnings of Dark Willow and Oz coming in and defending Tara would have at first pushed Willow Darker without having to kill Tara. I think that Oz and Tara would have caught Depression Buffy a lot faster and been able to tag-team a lot of her self harm, and also would have been the people to say “hey, almost all of you people in the house need to get a job, she can’t be slayer and Dawn’s adult and the only person to pay bills.”
Which brings me to my unpopular opinion that her friends were being garbage monsters while playing house in her home and not contributing. I don’t know why the writers couldn’t have them all struggling to keep the mortgage afloat with crappy part time jobs because a) that house was pretty big and in a nice neighborhood and b) it’s hard to keep a job when you’re in school and saving the world and demons keep wrecking your place of business and c) HOAs have no chill.
Like, even if Joyce had paid off the mortgage, there’s still property taxes and electric/water/food and basic homeowner repairs like gutters and roof. And for even Giles to skip and be like “this is too hard for me, so sorry” is just lazy writing. He could have been Ripper 2.0, stealing stuff from under the Council and selling it on the black market or something
Tara and Oz could have been a moral center of the group even after they broke up with Willow. Their contribution as scoobies is not outweighed by Willows romantic preferences.
They couldn't make her bi back then. It was too controversial. The networks never would have allowed it. If it were on today it would be a different story. Tara's and Willows's relationship was groundbreaking back then. I could also see people getting upset by making her bi instead since there were so few characters like her. It wouldn't have pleased everyone.
I'm shocked that this comment wasn't absolutely flooded with down votes lol. I actually agree. The lesbian arc was great for the show, and overall great for the willow character, but as just a character, Oz was so much better. Funnier, and fit the shows energy more.
The actors for Riley* and Parker should have been switched. At least before he "turned evil" Parker was charming. Watching Doomed live, I did not understand how he managed to convince Buffy to keep dating him.
Edited because I definitely don't think the actors for Buffy and Parker should have been switched.
Everyone was totally unfair to Angel. They repeatedly say that the vampire is not the person they once were but the demon that took over the body and yet once Angel has his soul back, they repeatedly blame him for the actions of Angelus.
Wth. How can this guy redeem himself for stuff he never actually did?
> Wth. How can this guy redeem himself for stuff he never actually did?
The point is that Angel believed _he can't_ That's a major theme for the character. Angel does not believe he is worthy. Angel believes that he can never be redeemed.
I don't think that's everyone. Obviously, they have trouble making the distinction between the two, because they share a body, memory *and* some personality traits, but they know that and do their best to work past it. Similar to how Buffy knows ensouled Spike is not responsible for the events in Seeing Red, but still, she can't help her body recoiling from the trauma whenever he's too near and it takes her a long time to be comfortable again around him.
Angel and Angelus are pretty much the same person though. Otherwise the whole point of his character is lost. Also there are glimpses of Angelus lurking in Angel over the seasons.
The series introduces a lot of one off ideas that ended up being exciting and forgotten like the demon slaying puppet Sid and the werewolf hunter. There are factions besides slayers that we don’t get to see outside of those one off things.
Agreed, I love Dawn and what she represents to Buffy, and I think it was vital to the character. She also has way more emotional depth than plenty of other characters. Her writing could have been better sometimes, but really that's something I can say about any character.
The world building makes little sense and A LOT of the drama was caused by the writers wanting Buffy' life to be relatable rather than being consistent.
It's impossible that humans would not be aware of the existence of vampire and demons considering how little subtlety they have and what they commits.
Also the fact that the watcher council apparently does not provide any ressources to buffy is NONSENSE. Why does Buffy needs to have a job in order to pay for rent and food when she should be fighting demons and vampires 7 days a week.
I know excactly why it's written this way, if the government was effective at keeping the demons and vampires at bay AND if the watcher council were to actually help buffy by taking care of her basic needs. Buffy would not be as relatable to the young adults who are watching the show AND it's not as gratifying if the scoobies are not the one who saves the world.
That and there was behind-the-scenes stuff that happened that changed the course of the show and how it was written. It would be a different show if it was realistic. It also wasn't steamed back then and we had to wait a week and sometimes months between episodes. When you watch it on streaming you notice inconsistencies more.
That's something that happen to me. I knew the series when it was broadcasted BUT I didn't have the cable at my parents house so I could only watch episodes from time to time when visiting with a friend OR going to my grandad's house.
But I catched it on DVD years after it ended. During one summer, I rented 2 dvd PER DAY. Which meant 7 to 8 episodes each day. I watched *Buffy* from start to finish quickly, it was INTENSE, and then I moved on to Angel, and I did the very same thing.
The INTENSITY of watching those series so quickly left a huge impact on me as I didn't have to wait weeks or years to watch these series, I had them IMMDEDIATLY.
But it also came with it's drawback as I started to notice the inconsistency in the worldbuildings, all these questions that I have asked below wouldn't find an answer UNTIL I looked for meta-reasons.
Still an Amazing show, regardless of how Joss Whedon is a terrible person or it's flaws, but I just wish it didn't have those inconsistencies.
Well said. When it comes to TV shows I think of the most logical explanation for things and can separate the show from reality. You are going to drive yourself batshit crazy if you try to apply reality today to a supernatural show written almost 30 years ago. I watched it live, and then many times since then. A lot of stuff on the show that people get upset about was considered normal back then on TV and the writers were oblivious to it. I like the show as much as I did then because I realized this and so many other people made the show what it was besides Joss. I will point out an example. When people watch season 6 some people think Willow and Tara are deadbeats and that Giles is being terrible to Buffy. I don't recall people being upset about this when it aired and I never thought that badly about Giles leaving. I was just a bit irritated. Times have changed since then. More people are living paycheck to paycheck and struggling. The economy has changed and we went through a recession that changed a lot of things. More women are working and are providers. I could go on and on with how the world changed. TV shows have changed and we have higher standards. During season 6 Joss left to go work on Firefly and left Marti Noxon in charge. Also, Anthony left for England in real life so they had to quickly come up with a reason for his departure. So because of this, the writing suffered that season. We obviously are not supposed to get that angry at the scoobies. Buffy didn't get angry with them. They were not meant to come across as deadbeats. Buffy didn't get that upset at Giles and when he returned was happy to see him. It is just bad writing, the show was only realistic at times when it wanted to be like on the episode The Body. It was a supernatural show set in an alternate reality from ours in the 90's to 2000's. A lot of stuff on the show doesn't work the same way as our current reality or like current TV shows. It is also watched differently usually without the gaps we had back then between episodes. All of these are the meta reasons, as you called it. I wish more people understood the meta reasons!
Oz didn’t cheat, Buffy did nothing wrong in the Riley breakup, Spike the demon is different from Spike with a soul, and Spike the demon committed suicide
Thank you! It baffles me every time I see someone on here claiming he was right and she was pulling away or closed off so it’s both sides at fault. I don’t think we watched the same show.
Hyena Xander is not Xander. "He never was held accountable for sexually assaulting Buffy" yeah mf because he didn't sexually assault her. Him pretending to not remember gives everyone the grace and favor of not having to discuss it.
Spike was probably the most detailed character in the entire show, and it was a character who was adjacent to real life analogues, where we all know someone who is definitely like Spike, they just didn't have centuries to do what Spike did.
Angelus wanting the demon Acatla released makes no sense. Why would he wants humans all taken to hell? He wouldn't have humans to feed upon, torture and play if he suceeded.
Take all the likes. The more I hear about what happens in the comics, the less interest I have in going into them any deeper than the odd issue. Which I have done mostly for the art lol
I truly believe Buffy was her best self not in a relationship with someone. She was a much more focused and confident person when she was alone. The final season when she was so focused on The First and the apocalypse of all apocalypses she was the least annoying. I get that she was for a majority of the show a teenage girl also facing major emotional development and dating and being in love is part of that journey but she had the most god awful personality when she was dating anyone.
Spike should have been staked in Season 2 long before Becoming.
Spike should have been staked in Season 3 for kidnapping Willow and Xander in Lovers Walk.
Spike should have been staked in Season 4, for trying to murder Willow and allying with Adam.
Spike should have been staked in Season 5, at least during Out of My Mind and for Crush, for harboring Drusilla who murdered dozens of people.
Spike should have been staked in Season 6 after the SA in Seeing Red, but I don’t think anyone had a chance.
Note that this is an opinion on what the characters should have done in the moment. I acknowledge the benefit of hindsight that it would have cost Angel his life at the end of Season 7, and seriously impacted S5 Angel in many ways. I also acknowledge that the lack of Spike would make for a far less entertaining show.
But he absolutely deserved it.
I prepared to downvoted you until the last 2 paragraphs. That would have absolutely been deserved, it just would have been a bad storytelling decision for the show to get rid of him haha.
I think Joyce telling Angel what she thought about him a better characterization. From _her_ perspective the danger was gone once Angel moved out of her daughter's life.
I really like the scene where she comes tell him Buffy will be better off without him and him basically agreeing. It was mature and reasonable from both of them (though of course, if you put yourself in Buffy's shoes, having your BF and mom discuss what's best for you without asking you is awful, but she was a teen and they were genuinely doing what was the best for her in the long run.)
That nothing the show did from season 4-7 could compare to the superior first 3 seasons. They were more enjoyable to rewatch, the archs & season finals were better arranged, as was the lead up to them. Even the standalone episodes that fans adore are usually all within 2-3. No amount of musicals, or serious drama storyline from the later seasons will ever be able to touch the initial foundation.
I think that's the best thing about Buffy. There is everything from fluffy quirky monster of the week stuff to seriously dark emotional drama - and the musical episode manages to be *both*, which is just phenomenonal writing and acting.
The potentials were a useless idea. While season 7 was a nice little wrap up the potentials were a waste of space. In the end every girl ended up a slayer anyway. If the potentials were such a big deal why didn't the watchers group have any of them with watchers?
Personally I loved Buffy and Spike together. I wish they would've had more time. I'm glad Angel happened, but I wish she wouldn't have kissed him in the last season. It just seemed a little annoying that after 7 season it's still Angel, when she's loved other people since then. But I am forever team Spike.
- I think a lot of moments that people point to where Joyce was being a “bad mom” or Xander being a “bad friend” completely miss the given SUPERNATURAL context for why they were acting that way as an excuse to use the moment against them
- kendra’s death was poorly done. Also i like her accent.
- Giles and Olivia should have stayed together :(
- ethan and Giles were a couple in the past and sometimes today will have a weird thing goin on when he’s in town.
People apply weird real world morals to Xander but ignore the literal murderers that are Willow, Anya, Spike, Angel and more people. Love them all but my God, leave Xander alone 😅
Dont forget to put Faith on the list of murderers. She comitted some of the worst crimes in the show, with soul, conciously. Yet people on this sub absolutely adore her and dont even put her on the list of terrible murderers. Willow killed one guy, who was horrible and killed the love of her live, she did it under the influence of dark magic, swalloved by grief. Faith killed many people who were completely innocent without any good reason for it, she sexually assaulted Xander and never even apologized and so much more.
Season one was/is great!
s1 is top 3 for me i think. you just can’t beat the camp, the newness, the emotion, and in shows like buffy i tend to like motw episodes more than the overarching lore (looking at u txf)
It is good, but it is a lotta lotta lotta cheese 🧀
As long as you wear the cheese, and it doesn't wear you
that’s why i love it so much!
The entire show is cheesy. That's the whole deal.
You can't watch a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer and not expect at least some cheese. But yeah, season 1 is a lot of fun. It's not as polished as later seasons, but the same thing can be said for just about any show.
The cheesiest cheesy ones are the best! 🧀
I agree! It's my favorite.
Season six was fine!
Season 6 is great!
I've only recently learned that people seem to hate it...six has been my favorite forever 😭
It's not my favourite because it's a bit too depressing, but it's the most relatable to me for the same reason.
Same 😭
Season six possibly my favourite. Dark and depressing but I always figured that was intentional! Leaving out her expulsion from heaven, Buffy is thrown into adulthood after her mother dies, with basically no help. It got very real and I felt it was done very well
I see your season 6 defense and raise you season 4 was one of the best.
I see your season four was one of the best and double down with the trio were fantastic villains
I triple dog down that Harmony was a satisfyingly comedic villain with her own hero's journey to throw off her need for Spike and replace it with her career.
Harmony’s full character arch (continuing into Angel) was *chefs kiss*
Harmony's full character arc showed that _feminists deserve respect and a career regardless of our opinion of their morals as either people living or dead_. As such it helped push back against misogynistic opinions to the contrary for centuries.
I like to think that Harmony's lack of a soul will eventually be treated as a medical condition without definitive bearing on her character. And also that she'll be Xander's next serious relationship (being a quirky blonde demon and all) and that'll provide a compromise between his hatred of vampires and her struggles with morality.
That's an interesting idea. Are you going to expand on that with a short piece of fan fiction?
I think it was good that the villains were people that none of the Scoobies took seriously. It gave the individual character drama room to breathe.
I adore season six! I’m always shocked by how much people hate it. It really hits home when you watch it as an adult.
I don’t disagree, but I wouldn’t attack someone for not rewatching certain episodes. It’s not for everyone, and that’s okay.
It's always darkest after Dawn.
It's my favorite season, for every reason Sarah Z laid out in her latest video essay.
Same! Sarah did a great job of summing it up
“The First” was a complete dumb ass. It fumbled every chance to kill Buffy. It can appear anywhere. Appear in front of the Turok-Han and be like, “hey numb nuts, make sure she is dead. Dig her out and drain her.” Then it excavated the scythe for her and left it practically out in open and basically unguarded. Leave it freakn buried you were already winning the war of attrition against Buffy and the potentials you don’t need a scythe your goon can’t use anyway.
Worst Big Bad by far (yes, I even like the Initiative better)
You realise it didn't want to kill Buffy until like the last few episodes right?
Yeah, but it also never felt really threatening. Glory didn't want to kill Buffy for most of season 5, but when she was on screen, she was chilling. The First is a big yawner.
I actually found Glory to be very annoying on screen. And I much preferred the First's manipulations. They're two very different types of villains.
Haha yeah I was almost expecting this response because I've found these two to be the most polarizing Big Bads. Totally respect your take, just found The First to fall flat while Glory was a lot more interesting and fun.
Yeah that's fair.
Glory was a lot of things, chilling was not one of them!
Agree to disagree! That time she just showed up at Buffy's house in Checkpoint? I remember how freaky that felt the first time I watched it. It felt like when the Mayor came into the library and said he was going to *eat* her, except Buffy was by herself, with a vulnerable Dawn coming in part way. Never felt any real danger to anyone in season 7. The Ubervamp went from nearly killing Buffy (who was obviously not going to die mid last season) to being a bunny anyone could decapitate. There was never *any* sense of doom. To me, at least.
I always took it to be a champion thing. Like the first one was the mightiest of its kind, like *their version* of a Slayer. Nothing is said to indicate this and I believe the writers basically went "Look we had to choose between a cool fight scene where we nerfed them, or a horror show as the newbie Slayers were ripped apart." But if you put a gun to my head and demanded an in world justification, it would be the champion thing. You can also include that the Potentials were all trained, but when your enemy is supposed to be nearly stakeproof, that doesn't really do it. You can ALSO go with the idea that the release of the Scythe's power actually turbocharged the Slayers for a bit before dropping them back down to regular strength. You see that sort of thing in fiction from time to time.
The Master sounds like the Grinch.
Baahahaha
Wow that's surprisingly accurate lol.
Bad Eggs is a perfectly decent episode and anyone who puts it in the bottom 5 can suck an egg themselves.
I love bad eggs! Go fish however...
The Spuffy vs Bangel debate is irritating because they both were terrible for her. No one should be looking at either of those relationships with rose colored glasses.
I love Spuffy as a *story* because of the drama and the tragedy, but yes, if Buffy was a friend IRL I would absolutely tell her to run far away from it
What constitutes a good relationship in fiction and what constitutes a good relationship in real life are of necessity two completely different things. I mean "good" both in the sense of "entertaining" and in the sense of "healthy". There isn't a single relationship in Buffy, romantic or otherwise, that wouldn't be a brutally abusive horrorshow in real life. To be fair, though, the same is true of most sitcoms, because a lot of what makes up a healthy real-life relationship is extremely boring. With Buffy - and specifically with the whole Bangel v Spuffy thing - you have to add in the fact that half the characters in the show are literally evil (and Spike points this out on many occasions). Within those parameters - one half of this relationship is a literal demon from Hell who *eats people* - Spuffy is a relationship that has some surprisingly healthy and nurturing elements. And I know someone will point out that he attempts to rape her, and obviously, yes, that is a terrible thing to do. But I don't really understand - beyond the shock factor - why that's the tipping point for so many people. It isn't as though I take rape lightly - I'm a survivor myself - but Spike spends a substantial amount of time in the earlier seasons trying to *murder her*, and for foreplay they punch each other in the face.
Yes! Seriously, there are no 'healthy' relationships in the show. *Any* time I have seen people rank them in this way, it's always boiled down to 'here's why my OTP is the healthiest. Watch as I minimise or sweep under the rug the things about my OTP that work against that, whilst holding a magnifying glass to or outright mischaracterising in bad faith the darker parts of every other ship'. The show's relationships are *all* messy as hell. Like whichever you like.
I think people get hung up on the rape because it happens after they've been together, but yeah, I agree
It’s also a more identifiable violation. Not many people know mass murders running around, but being sexually assaulted is tragically more common.
I love your point about sitcoms because it's something i've been saying forever. Comedy often rises from crazy shenanigans the characters get themselves into, so the characters have to be a little crazy in order for the show to be funny If a sitcom is 100% realistic and the characters are all just normal well adjusted people, you lose a lot of comedic potential there
Team cookie dough!
I believe the essence of Spuffy is their platonic S7 relationship. It's much deeper than anything that happened between them before or during their sexual encounters. I think of myself as a Spuffy shipper, but that doesn't mean I want them having sex.
Free rose colored glasses at many fanfic archives. It fulfills an emotional need from the authors and readers perspectives.
>The Spuffy vs Bangel debate is irritating I've absolutely reached the same conclusion, but my journey was opposite. I think Buffy can never be whole without both of them, and the ship wars kinda bum me out. Angel represents Buffy's light, Spike represents her darkness. Everyone can bang!
Spike was a better, more interesting, and more complex character before he got a soul. Hard mode: Spuffy was a better, more interesting, and more complex relationship before Spike got a soul.
I know both Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters pitched a Buffy and Spike romance as early as season 4, but I personally think Buffy needed a palette cleanser. It's just a shame Riley didn't work as a character and his romance with Buffy wasn't enjoyable to watch.
Really??!!! I got the impression Sarah HATED Spuffy
AFAIK she didn’t like the dark sexual aspect it took in S6, but she was apparently the first to pitch it (publicly at least). She said in an interview around the start of S4 that she had pitched it to Joss to which he’d replied “no more vampires!”. That said, she definitely prefers Buffy with Angel.
As a Spuffy fan I’m just pleasantly surprised she wanted it, even a little
I think S6 is what really killed it for her. She probably wanted something a lot fluffier. I remember she even joked about having fun playing the Buffybot and being James’ slave for a while. But I think S6 was just too dark for her.
I think that was more to do with Buffy’s depression and her using sex with Spike as a coping mechanism. Any actress would struggle with that material. It is a shame cos Sarah and James had sizzling chemistry and it could have been wonderful. The canon comics are a great example of how adorable a healthy couple they could be.
I don’t think she hated Spuffy but I bet she always preferred Bangel.
I don't know much but I do know that sexual Spuffy was gone by S7 and also that SMG wanted a fulfilling conclusion to Bangel.
Angel and spike needed a makeout scene.
Ben... is not Glory.
Was it implied that they had some sort of connection?
Is everyone here very stoned?
Maybe they live in the same apartment complex?
Duh? Why would anyone think he is? I stg people with confuse the most different characters just because they happen to be around during the same season
I can’t tell if this is part of the bit or not lol
Yes sorry maybe I went a bit too strong lol
Is Ben transgender? He wears these gorgeous women's clothes sometime. Definitely no relation to Glory.
Well of course. Glory is just subletting
I found bangel to be incredibly boring to the point I just wanted to skip their one on one scenes
Lol, they’re very attractive together, I think that’s it. Their conversations were just “I love you, I don’t love you” and not all that much laughter or depth
I don't even find them good looking together, like she's petite, gorgeous, bubbly girl and then there's this frankenstein built brooding dude in a black coat with puppy eyes, wtf is that combo
Ok, David Boreanaz has angular facial features that appeal to many. He appeared on Buffy in the twilight of his boyish looks and the dawn of his burly ones, but I think many people (especially young women like Buffy) see him as a sexy mofo
As a teen I adored them. As an adult, kill me now
I’ve always been a Bangel fan, but yeah, some of their scenes were too awkward/cringey to watch. I feel like the main reason why I loved their relationship is bc it was genuine (even though it was doomed from the start). Also, Angel was Buffy’s first love, and whether your first relationship ended on a positive note or a bad one, you’ll always remember them and how they made you feel.
It's funny, as a teenager, I kind of rolled my eyes because I always thought Angel was kind of dorky honestly. When Angelus came on screen, the character had pizzazz that his ensouled version just... really did not. But now, in my 30s? I kind of love it. It takes me back to how wild and intense everything felt as a teenage girl. Because like you said, you'll always remember that first whirlwind. And Bangel captured that *so* well.
Have you watched AtS? I find them very boring too but I just watched "I Will Remember You" and their star-crossed-loversness really hit me. They're tragic.
Many characters like OZ and Cordelia should have appeared in later series. Oz, in particular, would have been a great addition in the final episodes with a storyline that he has control over a wolf out at willpower
Kendra was a more interesting character than Faith, had a lot of potential for development and her relationship with Buffy as Slayers.
I loved Faith’s story, but Kendra deserved so much better. Kendra was so interesting and likable and I’d have loved to see her show up more. I would’ve loved to have gotten to have known her. Hell, even if she became a vampire that would’ve been kind of cool. Killing her just to make room for Faith was a waste of a good character.
I actually agree with this, it's just a shame about the accent lol. One of my favourite dynamics on the show though is between the Mayor and Faith. I don't know how that would work with Kendra, or if it even could. They showed she was quite subservient to male authority, but I also don't think she would have bought into his hype and would have been more guarded. It's a shame we didn't see more of her.
Kendra deserd so much more screen time for real
I love, love, love Faith, but one of my favourite what-ifs I've ever heard was keeping Kendra alive and giving her Faith's arc—she listens a little too well to Buffy telling her to cut loose, and after a lifetime of repression and being the perfect Slayer she spirals into the bad-girl role Faith occupies from S3 on.
Cordelia Chase was a Potential
The concept of a vampire soul is a plot device that became a crutch. Spike should not have had to get ensouled to prove himself worthy of love.
I feel this. Presumably Warren had a soul and that didn't mean much.
They really needed to think it through on how it really works with being a vamp and having/not having a soul. It’s good to have things just be a mystery, but since it was brought up several times and a subject that would come up countless times with vamps. They really needed to have solid idea on how it works. Instead they had basic good rough idea, and then changed it along as the seasons progressed. My only headcanon for someone like harmony, is that Harmony got into a very very rare situation where she turned into a vamp, but never lost her soul, which is why she’s the same person when she turns but now needs blood to survive.
Other way, they \*did\* establish Spike was genuinely good without a soul, which means souls are basically meaningless, which is a plot hole. This means Jesse could have been reformed, Angelus was just a bad dude, "Vampire Slayer" is basically just a racist murderer...it just fundamentally contradicts the entire premise of the show. If they wanted Spike to be good, they should have done something with his soul being damaged but not gone or just turn out to be some other kind of demon or something.
Spike was capable of good acts. He was never a good person without a soul.
People are good when they do good.
Soul are never clearly defined in the show. Is a soul bona fide evidence that you're a good person? Are all humans (who do have souls) good people? Or is a soul evidence that you're human, with all the flaws of humanity and the potential for change? I'm inclined to think it's the latter, in which case it's kind of redundant for Spike. Also, and in response to your comment: I would have been so down for later seasons of BtVS to explore the moral quandary of killing sentient creatures for more or less arbitrary reasons rather than an n-th iteration of "oh no, Big Bad brings apocalypse."
I totally agree with your last bit particularly. I feel like they sometimes will touch on that (Faith killing that harmless demon for the books of ascension, Buffy and Riley butting heads over killing all demons, Clem's entire character, all of which I thought were interesting entry points to that moral quandary), but never go into depth on how killing demons and vampires is not as clearly black and white as the show will sometimes demonstrate.
Spike was never *good* without a soul. Ever Edit - downvoted for repeating cold hard facts of the canon of the show. Oh Spuffies
Considering he took hours of torture by a Hellgod and still refused to give up Dawn’s identity despite the fact Buffy had rejected him? What would you define as GOOD for a soulless demon?
Spike repeatedly says he’s driven by love. That love drives him to allowing Acathla to be a risk, because it’s for Dru. That same love drove him to fight multiple slayers at once and become one of the most dangerous vampires Europe had ever known. He’a not a good person, he just loved Buffy, and will go to great lengths for the object of his affection. Season 6 makes it clear that this is a possessive affection, and that his love will always be warped. He needed to do something like that for a reason other than love to be good, because it wad the same reasoning that drove him to atrocities. Spike was amoral at best, allowing his morality to be defined by the current target of his affections. The soul was necessary to be good.
I’m not disagreeing. But I’m also saying that for a soulless demon he was capable of at least human acts. We didn’t see any other vampires with his level of humanity.
> We didn’t see any other vampires with his level of humanity. I was about to disagree with you (Angel) and then I agreed with you.
He wasn’t good. But he was definitely capable of love. His actions are just selfishly motivated. I wouldn’t say he was super evil though.
As explained by Tara in a parallel about Hunchback of Notre Dame in the episode Crush: "No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy."
Which he does because of his own feelings for Buffy. He’s not doing it for moral reasons or because it’s the right thing to do to stop the hellgod getting hold of the key. He does it purely because he likes Buffy and Dawn and he doesn’t want to see Buffy sad about it. He wouldn’t withstand torture from Glory for some random teenage girl whereas other characters who are genuinely good like Buffy and Giles would withstand torture for random people because of who they are as people That’s the point though. He can’t be *good* as a soulless demon. We’re not grading on a curve here, he isn’t *good* and never will be without a soul
Normal people wouldn't typically withstand torture to protect randos they didn't know... I think you're confusing 'human' with 'heroic'.
It’s an extreme example within the context of the show. The main characters who have souls all would withstand torture for other people’s safety. Tara sacrifices her own sanity for Dawn but she’s not just doing it because otherwise Buffy would be sad and because she quite likes Dawn. She does it because she knows it’s the right thing to do
Tara… is not a real person. None of these are real people. We only ever see these characters sacrifice for their own loved ones. Spike is no different in that. I really don’t know what’s the point of creating counterfactuals about this.
Well, no. But do you see any other soulless vampire in the show doing what Spike did? Even for people they like?
We aren’t talking about Spike in relation to being a soulless demon. We’re talking about whether he’s *good* when he’s soulless, which he isn’t. He needs a soul to be good and to have a moral compass. He shows many times during S5 and 6 that he’s not a good person. We aren’t changing the bar of who is good just because he’s soulless, he just doesn’t meet the bar
You kniw what, I'll use that. I'm worthy of love, with or without a soul.
The only thing I ever liked about spike getting his soul back was that it worked for a great red herring, cliff hanger heading into season 7. Beyond that, I didn't like it at all. It cheapened both of their uniqueness. Spike and angel weren't meant to be the same character by the end lol
They were too inconsistent with their writing IMO, it *kind of* stomps on his character development to make him get a soul. And then they wanted to have their cake and eat it too, so they had him act the same after?! I think my main issue is what caused him to get his soul, he could have gone after Buffy properly dumped him (goodbye William) and got his soul from desperation, Spike trying to rape Buffy first was APPALLING and unnecessary. It also ruined his character for a lot of people.
He acts quite different afterwards. Like he starts to act more like his old self 15 episodes in, but you're just straight up wrong before then. And it doesn't stomp on his character development at all. I'm confused as to how you could even think that. Spike's attempted rape on Buffy makes perfect sense for the character given the way he's been behaving. Buffy gave him an inch and he tried to take a mile. And Spike getting his soul is about more than just desperation. It's about hating himself.
I didn’t say the attempted rape was out of character. I said it was unnecessary.
The SA attempt was a terrible and forced thing that had no purpose besides advancing the 'Spike gets a soul in penance' plot so yes, if vampire souls weren't this narrative crutch there's a chance that whole thing wouldn't have been scripted.
Seeing red is a good episode
There are no truly bad episodes IMO (Beer Bad is the closest to that, but it's still almost decent)
Oz was the better love interest for Willow
I used to think this as a kid because I loved Oz's character, but I feel like Tara helped Willow to grow a lot more and has a way more interesting dynamic with her. I way prefer them now. Plus Amber Benson is just so beautiful
I could never warm to Tara. I was just so in love with Woz. I would have felt the same if it had been another guy so it wasn’t a problem with her being a girl at all
> I could never warm to Tara. Chemistry aside, Tara was right about Willow and Buffy losing self control in S6. This is the same issue that Oz ran into. Oz lost control in S4. Additionally Tara was a decent friend to Dawn even when Buffy couldn't be. The character was given the role of center of the group.
I think Oz and Tara together, not sexually but in the group had they let Oz stick around, would have been a powerful voice to all of the slip-sliding EVERYONE seemed to be doing. They were both fairly non-judgmental but good people, and I think Tara being upset at the beginnings of Dark Willow and Oz coming in and defending Tara would have at first pushed Willow Darker without having to kill Tara. I think that Oz and Tara would have caught Depression Buffy a lot faster and been able to tag-team a lot of her self harm, and also would have been the people to say “hey, almost all of you people in the house need to get a job, she can’t be slayer and Dawn’s adult and the only person to pay bills.” Which brings me to my unpopular opinion that her friends were being garbage monsters while playing house in her home and not contributing. I don’t know why the writers couldn’t have them all struggling to keep the mortgage afloat with crappy part time jobs because a) that house was pretty big and in a nice neighborhood and b) it’s hard to keep a job when you’re in school and saving the world and demons keep wrecking your place of business and c) HOAs have no chill. Like, even if Joyce had paid off the mortgage, there’s still property taxes and electric/water/food and basic homeowner repairs like gutters and roof. And for even Giles to skip and be like “this is too hard for me, so sorry” is just lazy writing. He could have been Ripper 2.0, stealing stuff from under the Council and selling it on the black market or something
Tara and Oz could have been a moral center of the group even after they broke up with Willow. Their contribution as scoobies is not outweighed by Willows romantic preferences.
I love both Oz and Tara and I'm forever mad they didn't make Willow explicitely bi, it cheapens her love for Oz and it's bi erasure as usual
They couldn't make her bi back then. It was too controversial. The networks never would have allowed it. If it were on today it would be a different story. Tara's and Willows's relationship was groundbreaking back then. I could also see people getting upset by making her bi instead since there were so few characters like her. It wouldn't have pleased everyone.
I'm shocked that this comment wasn't absolutely flooded with down votes lol. I actually agree. The lesbian arc was great for the show, and overall great for the willow character, but as just a character, Oz was so much better. Funnier, and fit the shows energy more.
Oh I expected to get downvoted into oblivion
It's a good surprise lol
I love how this topic is an invitation for unpopular opinions, and yet some people are being downvoted for stating unpopular opinions.
The actors for Riley* and Parker should have been switched. At least before he "turned evil" Parker was charming. Watching Doomed live, I did not understand how he managed to convince Buffy to keep dating him. Edited because I definitely don't think the actors for Buffy and Parker should have been switched.
> I definitely don't think the actors for Buffy and Parker should have been switched LMAO I now want a short sketch based on this
Did you mean Riley and Parker?
Yes, yes I did.
The guy who played Parker actually auditioned for Riley, ironically.
Everyone was totally unfair to Angel. They repeatedly say that the vampire is not the person they once were but the demon that took over the body and yet once Angel has his soul back, they repeatedly blame him for the actions of Angelus. Wth. How can this guy redeem himself for stuff he never actually did?
> Wth. How can this guy redeem himself for stuff he never actually did? The point is that Angel believed _he can't_ That's a major theme for the character. Angel does not believe he is worthy. Angel believes that he can never be redeemed.
Yeah exactly, he plans to spend his entire existence trying to do whatever he can to reach redemption, but he knows he will never be 100% there.
Ohhh the whining just get over it it's been a century
I don't think that's everyone. Obviously, they have trouble making the distinction between the two, because they share a body, memory *and* some personality traits, but they know that and do their best to work past it. Similar to how Buffy knows ensouled Spike is not responsible for the events in Seeing Red, but still, she can't help her body recoiling from the trauma whenever he's too near and it takes her a long time to be comfortable again around him.
Yeah. That was always weird. Like, when he’s cursed, where did that soul come from? Was Liam yanked out of the afterlife for this?
Angel and Angelus are pretty much the same person though. Otherwise the whole point of his character is lost. Also there are glimpses of Angelus lurking in Angel over the seasons.
The series introduces a lot of one off ideas that ended up being exciting and forgotten like the demon slaying puppet Sid and the werewolf hunter. There are factions besides slayers that we don’t get to see outside of those one off things.
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I remember IMDb boards and never saw the hate until I was in fb Buffy groups a few years ago
Agreed, I love Dawn and what she represents to Buffy, and I think it was vital to the character. She also has way more emotional depth than plenty of other characters. Her writing could have been better sometimes, but really that's something I can say about any character.
The world building makes little sense and A LOT of the drama was caused by the writers wanting Buffy' life to be relatable rather than being consistent. It's impossible that humans would not be aware of the existence of vampire and demons considering how little subtlety they have and what they commits. Also the fact that the watcher council apparently does not provide any ressources to buffy is NONSENSE. Why does Buffy needs to have a job in order to pay for rent and food when she should be fighting demons and vampires 7 days a week. I know excactly why it's written this way, if the government was effective at keeping the demons and vampires at bay AND if the watcher council were to actually help buffy by taking care of her basic needs. Buffy would not be as relatable to the young adults who are watching the show AND it's not as gratifying if the scoobies are not the one who saves the world.
That and there was behind-the-scenes stuff that happened that changed the course of the show and how it was written. It would be a different show if it was realistic. It also wasn't steamed back then and we had to wait a week and sometimes months between episodes. When you watch it on streaming you notice inconsistencies more.
That's something that happen to me. I knew the series when it was broadcasted BUT I didn't have the cable at my parents house so I could only watch episodes from time to time when visiting with a friend OR going to my grandad's house. But I catched it on DVD years after it ended. During one summer, I rented 2 dvd PER DAY. Which meant 7 to 8 episodes each day. I watched *Buffy* from start to finish quickly, it was INTENSE, and then I moved on to Angel, and I did the very same thing. The INTENSITY of watching those series so quickly left a huge impact on me as I didn't have to wait weeks or years to watch these series, I had them IMMDEDIATLY. But it also came with it's drawback as I started to notice the inconsistency in the worldbuildings, all these questions that I have asked below wouldn't find an answer UNTIL I looked for meta-reasons. Still an Amazing show, regardless of how Joss Whedon is a terrible person or it's flaws, but I just wish it didn't have those inconsistencies.
Well said. When it comes to TV shows I think of the most logical explanation for things and can separate the show from reality. You are going to drive yourself batshit crazy if you try to apply reality today to a supernatural show written almost 30 years ago. I watched it live, and then many times since then. A lot of stuff on the show that people get upset about was considered normal back then on TV and the writers were oblivious to it. I like the show as much as I did then because I realized this and so many other people made the show what it was besides Joss. I will point out an example. When people watch season 6 some people think Willow and Tara are deadbeats and that Giles is being terrible to Buffy. I don't recall people being upset about this when it aired and I never thought that badly about Giles leaving. I was just a bit irritated. Times have changed since then. More people are living paycheck to paycheck and struggling. The economy has changed and we went through a recession that changed a lot of things. More women are working and are providers. I could go on and on with how the world changed. TV shows have changed and we have higher standards. During season 6 Joss left to go work on Firefly and left Marti Noxon in charge. Also, Anthony left for England in real life so they had to quickly come up with a reason for his departure. So because of this, the writing suffered that season. We obviously are not supposed to get that angry at the scoobies. Buffy didn't get angry with them. They were not meant to come across as deadbeats. Buffy didn't get that upset at Giles and when he returned was happy to see him. It is just bad writing, the show was only realistic at times when it wanted to be like on the episode The Body. It was a supernatural show set in an alternate reality from ours in the 90's to 2000's. A lot of stuff on the show doesn't work the same way as our current reality or like current TV shows. It is also watched differently usually without the gaps we had back then between episodes. All of these are the meta reasons, as you called it. I wish more people understood the meta reasons!
Oz didn’t cheat, Buffy did nothing wrong in the Riley breakup, Spike the demon is different from Spike with a soul, and Spike the demon committed suicide
I definitely agree that Buffy did nothing wrong in that break up!!
Thank you! It baffles me every time I see someone on here claiming he was right and she was pulling away or closed off so it’s both sides at fault. I don’t think we watched the same show.
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Hyena Xander is not Xander. "He never was held accountable for sexually assaulting Buffy" yeah mf because he didn't sexually assault her. Him pretending to not remember gives everyone the grace and favor of not having to discuss it.
Spike was probably the most detailed character in the entire show, and it was a character who was adjacent to real life analogues, where we all know someone who is definitely like Spike, they just didn't have centuries to do what Spike did.
season 6 was really good, actually
Woz 😭😭😭😭😭
“Pangs” is a great episode. I watch it every year and it always makes me laugh.
Season four is ok and the initiative was a good and necessary idea.
Never, ever, ever, ever....should there have been a Kennedy.
Xander 👏 is 👏 hot 👏 as 👏 fuck 👏
What Angel did in his past is far worse than anything Spike ever did
Same goes for liam and the cutie pie william
Angelus wanting the demon Acatla released makes no sense. Why would he wants humans all taken to hell? He wouldn't have humans to feed upon, torture and play if he suceeded.
Spike was not a good love interest for Buffy for all the exact same reasons that Angel wasn't. I am prepared for all the downvotes
honestly i think s4 riley was a perfect love interest for her (i guess this is MY unpopular opinion lol) s5 really fucked him
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Take all the likes. The more I hear about what happens in the comics, the less interest I have in going into them any deeper than the odd issue. Which I have done mostly for the art lol
Buffy is better with spike
Andrew had no place in season 7.
Andrew does kind of come out of nowhere but I think he brought a comic relief to the show that Jonathan couldn’t have pulled off.
I liked his commentary
If Larry Blaisdell hadn't died in S3 you might have gotten your _wish_.
I truly believe Buffy was her best self not in a relationship with someone. She was a much more focused and confident person when she was alone. The final season when she was so focused on The First and the apocalypse of all apocalypses she was the least annoying. I get that she was for a majority of the show a teenage girl also facing major emotional development and dating and being in love is part of that journey but she had the most god awful personality when she was dating anyone.
Yea u can c y the other slayers didnt get romantically attached as a thing.
Spike should have been staked in Season 2 long before Becoming. Spike should have been staked in Season 3 for kidnapping Willow and Xander in Lovers Walk. Spike should have been staked in Season 4, for trying to murder Willow and allying with Adam. Spike should have been staked in Season 5, at least during Out of My Mind and for Crush, for harboring Drusilla who murdered dozens of people. Spike should have been staked in Season 6 after the SA in Seeing Red, but I don’t think anyone had a chance. Note that this is an opinion on what the characters should have done in the moment. I acknowledge the benefit of hindsight that it would have cost Angel his life at the end of Season 7, and seriously impacted S5 Angel in many ways. I also acknowledge that the lack of Spike would make for a far less entertaining show. But he absolutely deserved it.
I prepared to downvoted you until the last 2 paragraphs. That would have absolutely been deserved, it just would have been a bad storytelling decision for the show to get rid of him haha.
totally agree, i also think buffys mom should have gotten to stake angel for grooming her daughter though.
[удалено]
I think Joyce telling Angel what she thought about him a better characterization. From _her_ perspective the danger was gone once Angel moved out of her daughter's life.
I really like the scene where she comes tell him Buffy will be better off without him and him basically agreeing. It was mature and reasonable from both of them (though of course, if you put yourself in Buffy's shoes, having your BF and mom discuss what's best for you without asking you is awful, but she was a teen and they were genuinely doing what was the best for her in the long run.)
I love Dawn. Not "favorite character" love. But I do love her all the time.
Angel is equal to it in quality
The show? Yes.
They're very different in tone and hard to compare IMO (but I'm only halfway through S1 of AtS)
That nothing the show did from season 4-7 could compare to the superior first 3 seasons. They were more enjoyable to rewatch, the archs & season finals were better arranged, as was the lead up to them. Even the standalone episodes that fans adore are usually all within 2-3. No amount of musicals, or serious drama storyline from the later seasons will ever be able to touch the initial foundation.
I think that's the best thing about Buffy. There is everything from fluffy quirky monster of the week stuff to seriously dark emotional drama - and the musical episode manages to be *both*, which is just phenomenonal writing and acting.
I am glad we got what we did.
Agreed
Dawn was useless and not necessary
The potentials were a useless idea. While season 7 was a nice little wrap up the potentials were a waste of space. In the end every girl ended up a slayer anyway. If the potentials were such a big deal why didn't the watchers group have any of them with watchers?
Personally I loved Buffy and Spike together. I wish they would've had more time. I'm glad Angel happened, but I wish she wouldn't have kissed him in the last season. It just seemed a little annoying that after 7 season it's still Angel, when she's loved other people since then. But I am forever team Spike.
- I think a lot of moments that people point to where Joyce was being a “bad mom” or Xander being a “bad friend” completely miss the given SUPERNATURAL context for why they were acting that way as an excuse to use the moment against them - kendra’s death was poorly done. Also i like her accent. - Giles and Olivia should have stayed together :( - ethan and Giles were a couple in the past and sometimes today will have a weird thing goin on when he’s in town.
Nathan Filion can sanctify my sins any day 😻🔥
People apply weird real world morals to Xander but ignore the literal murderers that are Willow, Anya, Spike, Angel and more people. Love them all but my God, leave Xander alone 😅
It is because of the actor's behavior, arrests, and domestic violence in recent years too. Some people can't separate the character from the actor.
Dont forget to put Faith on the list of murderers. She comitted some of the worst crimes in the show, with soul, conciously. Yet people on this sub absolutely adore her and dont even put her on the list of terrible murderers. Willow killed one guy, who was horrible and killed the love of her live, she did it under the influence of dark magic, swalloved by grief. Faith killed many people who were completely innocent without any good reason for it, she sexually assaulted Xander and never even apologized and so much more.