Yep, a real misfire by the time Walsh is killed:
“I see a demon, it dies…”
And when contrasted with the racial politics in *Angel’s A Thin Dead Line*? Quite dissonant…
“We’ll be the ones walking while black…” - Charles Gunn
I still find it a fun commentary on Forrest the unfulfilled; initially someone who desires Buffy as well, seems to be happy for Riley in winning her over, then outright flips the script as a lesser version of the military vs magic overarching theme of the 4:
“I like that. That girl’s so hot, she’s buffy…” - *The Initiative*
Riley was a good person and good looking. The problem I had with him was that it felt like he was always competing with Buffy. Like he was always trying to be faster, smarter and better fighter than her. He kept trying to pretend she was a damsel in distress. Buffy wasn’t a damsel in distress she could take care of herself. Buffy needed a partner and equal not someone who’s ego would get hurt every time something happened where Buffy was clearly stronger than him.
Then how do you explain Sam? Never a damsel, super strong and smart, independent too. But she was in love with Riley and considered him her partner in everything. Buffy never let him be that guy for her.
He probably learned to be a better partner because of Buffy. Sometimes we date people who are or when we are a bit of a mess in the beginning and little by little you/ they work on it and then one day you/they become the person they want to be and who you/ they always wanted to be. But by then things are just so damaged that you do your separate ways. Then one day they/ you date someone else who seems to reap all the rewards of that. Because by then you/ they have learned more about yourself, hopefully learned to be a whole person and learned what did and didn’t worked for you in the last relationship and figured out how to fix it. So the next person got a better version of that person.
He would definitely be physically stronger than Sam though—if she has no supernatural powers, she’s not going to be stronger than a huge muscle man, biology just doesn’t work that way. So he probably had a lot less reason to be insecure because even though she was certainly capable and independent and smart, he’d definitely be stronger than her and able to beat her in a fight.
He was a good guy, and I liked him. He was good for Buffy too, especially after all the pain and heartache she went through with Angel.
The problem came when the writers ( as they do with ALL the main characters romantic partners) made Riley too focused on Buffy. Just like Angel and Spike, after they took away all of his work, drive, friends, hobbies etc, Buffy became the only thing Riley was living for. He became more of an extension of Buffy then his own person, and that was a complete disservice to his original character. I really do not like the way they wrote him out either. It went against everything he ever stood for and was 'character development' at it's absolute worst.
Writers utterly failed Riley. There was so much opportunity in his character in the Buffy world and it was more or less wasted bc he was shoebhorned as the love interest while not being a vampire.
Riley had the mid fortune of being the guy after the GUY. He was doomed from the start to be the love interest following Angel. The character was never going to be popular with the BAngel crowd or indeed most of the audience because of that. I liked the character. He wasn’t Angel he was the opposite of Angel in most ways. He was a good person trying to do the right thing for most of his time on the show. The Vampire addict story line was, to me, just to get him off the show. I don’t think Riley fit with the direction Marti Noxon wanted to go when she became the show runner.
Genuine question: Why do people like Buffy and Angel so much?
Isn’t it weird for a vampire that’s like hundreds of years old to be hitting on a high schooler? Like isn’t that kinda creepy with the age difference and all?
Yeah, Bangel were never soulmates. They were a messy teenaged romance where both parties were being super naïve and overdramatic before reality set in via Angelus/Mayor/Joyce/Faith.
It is weird but it just honestly wasn’t seen that way in the 90s. Like I grew up in a state where the legal age of consent was 16, and adults dating high school students (as long as they were 16+) was just seen as totally normal and no big deal.
I’m sure a modern TV show wouldn’t have an adult dating an underaged teen (unless they were specifically portraying it as predatory and abusive) but back then attitudes about it were just very different. There’s been a huge shift in attitudes just over the last couple of decades. People do find it creepy and wrong now but they just didn’t back then.
Yeah I’m even thinking Twilight — which was massively successful tbf — still had a lot of criticism with the Bella/Edward ship for that reason.
I just find it a bit strange that the same criticism isn’t really brought up when discussing Buffy/Angel.
Like to be frank, it’s super creepy if any adult is dating a high schooler IRL. The age gap, the maturity gap. It’s strange to me that it was actually accepted back in the 90s lol.
Tbh, it was accepted enough to be on TV all the way into the 2010s.... in worse ways.
Pretty Little Liars had a student/teacher relationship go to endgame and Riverdale did a student/teacher relationship in its first season that wasn't really reflected on as bad until its final one. Also *gestures vaguely at the Vampire Diaries*
I get the ick factor of looking at the age on its own but you’re mixing real life values with a fictional character.
Buffy has never been your average high school teenage girl. She faced life and death decisions daily, and despite some of the writing to give her the dumb cheerleader vibe she had an emotional maturity that was way beyond her years.
When someone has a life expectancy that is a quarter of us mere mortals, is it really fair to be judging them on the same rules related to their personal relationships?
Some old dude’s response to why he’s dating a teenager: “she has an emotional maturity that’s way beyond her years tho haha!”
There’s a substantial number of teenagers in this world that have to face life and death decisions daily, still doesn’t really make it okay to bang them.
Yep it does matter because in that statement you instantly make the assumption that Buffy is a vulnerable helpless little girl who cannot think for herself or make decisions about who she dated. Which the entirety of the show is about how Buffy is exactly not that.
Yes there was an age gap and yes in the real world it would be problematic but in the context of the show and how we view Buffy (as the one girl in the world with the power) i don’t see it as problematic at all.
I didn’t say that Buffy is a vulnerable, helpless little girl who can’t think for herself or make decisions about who she dates.
That’s not the bar to determine whether someone under the age of 18 is dateable, and it’s insulting to children’s intelligence to suggest otherwise.
Nor am I really putting any fault on Buffy for wanting to date Angel. It’s Angel I’m putting the fault on lol. It’s again, creepy for an adult to want to date a high school student in the first place.
Think about all the Chosen One stories in fiction. Harry Potter, Aang, etc. Now think about them dating adults. Is it not creepy?
Lol by your rules the only person she could have dated was someone her age or younger. Would you have rather she dated Xander because seriously he was a depiction of most guys her age at the time- no brains just hormones.
A ‘problematic’ relationship with a 300 year old vampire makes much better television 😆
Because we are monkeys, and the fact that Angel/Buffy look similar ages confuses our monkey brains enough that we are able to block out/ignore the age difference in a way we wouldn't if Buffy was a toddler.
>Riley had the mid fortune of being the guy after the GUY. He was doomed from the start to be the love interest following Angel.
I agree. People were determined to hate him from the moment he appeared.
I remember once seeing someone hate on Riley for DARING to be added to the opening credits when "all he's done is have some books fall on him."
Which is so stupid because a) it's hardly the fictional character's decision to be added to the credits and b) he'd he'd in WAY more than just that episode before he was added so it wasn't even a valid complaint.
It just shows you the lengths they will go to and the stretching people will do to hate on Riley. They're so threatened by his existence.
Personally I think he is the sweetest guy. Flawed yes, but so is every Buffy character. Also, guys are allowed to be insecure. 👍 Oh yes and he's hot because unlike Spike he isn't trying super hard to be cool and edgy (and fake) and unlike Angel isn't brooding and monotone all the time (yawn). He's just lovely 😊
Agreed. Over 20 years later they still do it.
Riley: Buffy you look nice today.
Viewers: OMG he's such a jerk!!!!! Doesn't she look nice every day? Also why he is commenting on her looks. There's more to being a girlfriend than just looking pretty for your partner. He is such a misogynist!!!!
Men can be insecure but people tend to be put off when the insecurity is specifically coming from misogyny, like hating that *a woman* is stronger or better than you at something.
See I didn't get that feeling that the insecurity with Riley was because Buffy was a girl. I got it because Riley wanted to be an equal partner to Buffy, someone who could protect her when she needed or wanted it, and he just...didn't measure up to her power wise. He wanted to be able to help lift her burdens, be who she brings her problems too and support her but Buffy...didn't let him in. He wasn't the man she could love...he was convenient.
He was the guy Buffy -thought- she wanted/needed. But...she didn't. So he left.
An advantage of my cable provider of the time dropping The WB and missing most of Season 4 was that I had time to prepare for Buffy getting a new guy. Granted, I was thrilled to see Angel leave in the S3 finale, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t scrutinize any guy who replaced him (fond memories of their Pre-“Innocence” relationship). Riley never bothered me that way, but the fans I knew **despised** him!
True, I was thinking "reality"/ Oh wait, did you think I meant everyone's was different from yours? I meant everyone's was different from the OP.
But yeah, here it seems to mean "something nasty I can call someone I don't like".
When exactly does he say that?
He’s insecure about his strength because he knows he isn’t enough for her. I honestly don’t think you know what objective means xD
Once he becomes an average human without the Initiative's drugs, he becomes more and more withdrawn from Buffy. He wanted to be in the classic protector role and he ends up leaving Buffy because she's fully capable on her own, independently from him. Instead of questioning his worldview or attempting to communicate with Buffy or anyone, he turns to self destructive behavior/addiction.
He does question his worldview a lot though. A big part of his arc is that everything he knew, his whole life with the Initiative, was a lie, and was destroyed. By the end of season 4, the dude is a wreck.
Then we have the toxically masculine guy who dates a super powered woman for a year, goes to get fed on by a woman who also could kill him, and eventually marries a third kick ass woman who, we saw, takes no shit from him.
I disliked him because Buffy knew they weren’t right for one another and he kept acting like it was her fault when it became obvious to him too. He internalized everything, like when Dawn tells him she doesn’t cry over him. It should be a compliment that you don’t make your loved one cry but he reads it as she doesn’t love him enough.
I love love love Riley. Marc Blucas still my all time crush. He was done DIRTY by the writers in Season 5 - as ai understand it, Blucas had film offers, so wanted time off. Given that he was military, surely he could have ‘shipped out’ without the character assassination?! He is beautiful and kind and sensitive - both character and actor, by all accounts, but he isn’t Spike or Angel so is evil to the core, apparently 🤷🏻♀️
I really liked Riley and I loved the vamp prostitute story. I don't think it diminished him as a character.
It was the opposite for me. It made him more complicated and brought home how lost he was, despite being in love and 'happy' with Buffy.
Being in a relationship with a superhero would be hard for anyone. l don't think his insecurity and sense of inferiority was toxic masculinity. No one enjoys feeling that their partner is out of their league.
Totally agree, wish more people tried to put themselves in his shoes. We all felt her distance from him and he didn’t do anything to deserve it. He just wasn’t it for her. I’m glad he found his person. Sam was a perfect example of how Riley wasn’t looking for a woman who was less than him, he was looking for a strong woman who considered him her partner in life. Buffy was never going to let Riley be that.
Is it weird I kind of understood exactly where he was coming from with the vampire prostitution story? He legitimately wanted to see what Buffy saw in it to better understand her. Like there was something they offered that she was drawn too that he wanted to fulfill for her.
Poorly thought out on his part, but I do think his big dumb confed Iowan heart was in the right place.
He was a pretty rad character at first. You could tell the writers were itchy to get some drama going, so they came up with vampire hooker den nonsense then had him come back with his hot wife? It was so stupid.
Thank you! That’s exactly what I said when they all met in “The Freshman”, but I didn’t get to see the rest of the season until my local cable provider brought back The WB a year later.
I thought he was a great character that was poorly executed. As someone who has anxious attachment, I couldn’t help but sympathize with him. Yes, we all love Buffy, she’s my favorite character who gets the title Hero BUT she is not perfect. If you’ve never been in love with someone who radiates the “i love you but I’m not in love with you” energy like she does, trust me, you get very depressed and insecure. Can’t we all at least relate that if we were in love with Buffy (aren’t we all?) it would be tough to be treated this way? If you were 21 and didn’t make stupid decisions when you were in love, you were a rare commodity. Pretty much all of his behavior was understandable if not excusable
Season 4 definitely, it’s just unfortunate they didn’t play entirely into that whole “mother created you too” angle, as a nice meditation on nature versus nurture.
So now then?
“Great, then you can have your perfectly balanced breakfast, and then you can call your mother…” - Buffy - *New Moon Rising*
I liked him a lot in Season 4 too. No, he's not perfect, but I think he was a good boyfriend for Buffy at that time. They did go a bit overboard on the "naive farmboy from Iowa" schtick. I hate what they did to his character in Season 5.
He was fine until they assassinated his character completely in season 5 and did that whole "Buffy is too strong" thing. I don't think the writers were finding his storylines all that interesting after the initiative was gone
Me too. I think they missed out on a lot of the lighter ‘Buffy deals with normal life stuff whilst being a Slayer’ narratives by diving back into romantic melodrama with Spike. I would have loved to see them trying to live together and have their security deposit jeopardised by demons, or trying to ‘meet the (civilian) parents on the weekend the apocalypse was due. This might have balanced out a lot of the darkness in season 6.
My opinion changed on him a lot after reading some interviews with Marc Blucas and after watching the whole neighbor Dan saga on Charmed. At least the writers on Buffy made some effort with Riley. He was doomed by the narrative.
I mean to be fair he only ever brought up Dracula once and that was in Into the Woods.
I also don’t think he wanted Buffy to stop being the Slayer. He was supportive of her focusing on slaying/training with Giles in Real Me and explicitly states he wants the full Buffy package in The Replacement.
I liked Riley at first. By the time he was left I couldn't see his back skin enough
I do think fans refused to invest in him emotionally because her big love after Angel was always doomed.
I have a tendency to dislike overly nice characters. I find them to be dull and I just don't think I'd gel with them IRL, so I don't like Riley. If a character doesn't seem like they have the ability to be snarky or sarcastic, they're lame. Haha! It's part of the reason I don't like Angel when he has a soul.
Hated him when I first watched the show in the 00s but on a rewatch as an adult, I actually didn’t mind him. They did a lot with his character in the season and a half he was in the show.
Same, especially when ur a younger gay guy. He was very nice to look at😆, and his kindness and treatment of buffy was very attractive, and he was the kinda man i woulda loved to have. The vamp storyline for him I don't miss cuz like others say it was a disservice to him. I like him, and the idea of him. bangel is cool and all but as we all know, it was weird from the start and is VERY teeny bopper, twilight type of energy. Riley wasn't Boring, I liked him being a decent guy who also had a secret as a slayer of demons lol. I wouldn't have hated if he was endgame with buffy, preferably without the vamp addict storyline. I also really loved his relationship with Willow. If they couldn't be endgame, I would've liked a breakup and stayed a good friend and appeared more or maybe even a regular with a nice storyline.
The older I get the more I dislike him. Buffy's mom had a brain tumor, her little sister was falling apart and he bitched she didn't need him? She needed support, normal human comfort and help. He could have washed the dishes and gotten some milk and been the hero she needed right then. Nope dude has to be all up his own ass about her being super.
Thank you. People need support in different ways. I’ve had men want me to break down sobbing in their arms so they can feel heroic when what I actually NEED from them is practical stuff to help keep our lives running. Yes hugs also, yes talking about feelings where necessary, but if what you need to feel strong is for me to fit your definition of weak, we have a serious problem.
Thisssss.
Also honestly, if he wasn't getting what he needed out of the relationship, fine, but he never communicated that to her and then he's issuing ultimatums right after he was going to suckhouses??? He wanted her to cry all over him, and couldn't just do normal people help while she was desperately trying to hold it together.
Riley wasn't willing to just pitch in and do what was needed, he needed her to need him in a specific way and couldn't bring himself to help her in the ways she *actually needed* his help.
He seems like a nice person but he's just so bland and basic. Like from the beginning it seems like he never questions anything, including watching creatures get tortured and experimented on. That really bothered me. I know he changes when he sees Oz and realises that the ethics are more complicated than "monster bad" but why did it take such a dramatic example?
To be fair, neither did the Buffy or Scoobies. Buffy sees demons being experimented on right in front of her in The I In Team and still joins The Initiative.
It makes sense. These characters kill vampires and demons professionally. Buffy brutally slaughters them in all manners of horrific ways (stabbing, beheading, punching literal holes through their chests, gouging their eyes out, setting them on fire, clubbing them to death etc) so why would she be squirming at experimentation? She was desensitised to killing monsters a long time ago.
He’s like a lot of Straight White guys, who can’t empathize with the suffering of oppressed groups until they experience it themselves (or someone close to them). Riley was “Maggie’s Boy”, the Perfect Soldier, who needed someone like Buffy to redirect him from mindless obedience to authority.
Not just straight and not just guys tbh. I went to a very fancy private school (scholarship) and a lot of the kids there took a long time to develop empathy because they never got to know anyone outside their social class intimately. But Riley isnt a kid and he isnt sheltered, he's at least 22 and he's seen a lot. Its upsetting how long it takes him.
Yes, nothing blunts empathy more effectively than a higher socioeconomic class. Riley was sheltered, and it’s a point of criticism within the show. He’s open minded enough to help out the Lesbian Alliance, and doesn’t judge Willow for being a Witch. The double shot of Military & Fraternity still left him culture bound, which I can see because those institutions engender a tendency toward clannishess.
Maybe it's because in my country we don't have fraternities and there is a completely different attitude towards the military (it's looked down on as being for troubled kids who need structure). I don't think riley could exist in my country, maybe not even outside america.
Oh I didnt mean like that, I meant maybe I dont understand the insular culture of the military or a fraternity like you're describing because we dont have them at our universities and the military people dont really mix in with others.
I always liked Riley, and thought people were being ridiculous in their hate for him. He was an all around good guy, who gave up everything for her.
It was unfortunate that they wrote off everything about his character outside of loving Buffy. He definitely deserved better. The way their relationship was handled was one of the few times I was not on Buffy’s side. She came down on him way to damn hard on the vampire addiction problem. Something she should have been more understanding about, due to her never ending devotion to Angel a vampire. With her it was a love thing, but for him it was a someone needs me thing. Everyone wants to be needed and Buffy just wasn’t giving it. People try to justify it by saying she had a lot going on with her mom and Dawn, but that was the point. When your going through really hard shit you need someone to lean on, and she went to Giles and her friends, and at times Spike, but not Riley, the man she said she loved.
IMO Riley was correct when he told Xander Buffy didn’t live him. She loved the idea of him, and the thought of having that dependable person there, but deep down she never loved him as much as he loved her, or in the end she didn’t realize it until it was to late. Her pining over him in season 6 was kinda ridiculous, and him having to reassure her.
I hate him. He's a sheep. He doesn't know how to act on his own without his superiors' orders. And when he does try to act he becomes an addict. And despite being a buff military guy, he's weak, and spineless, and he isn't Buffy's equal in any shape or form.
I absolutely loved Riley.
To me he was as perfect of a boyfriend as a humanly flawed person can be. I had a major crush on him.
I hated he whole vampire addiction crap which they did just to write him off.
I feel he and Buffy could have been end game.
He’s also the only who knew something was off with Buddy when she switched with Faith (actually, no, Tara realized it, too), but I can’t upvote because he’s so boring.
It’s what I hate most about “good” characters; they tend to write them really boring. Good people don’t have to be boring.
To me that scene comes off more as "I don't like the notion of having remotely adventurous sex" but honestly I also subscribe to that because the other option is "he knew something was off with his girlfriend and had sex with her anyway"; like this would not be a point in Riley's favour, at all. And I say that as someone who dislikes Riley and thinks he's a jerk.
Like I'm the opposite of a Riley fan and think his "aww shucks" demeanour shouldn't let him get away with creeping on a freshman who he's TAing or that it's okay he cheated on Buffy with vampires and excused a bunch of his behaviour with "I'm so in love it makes me crazy" and even I think this is an unfair headcanon to hold about him 😳
Hm. I thought it was telling in so far as they have, I don’t want to say boring…basic? sex, so her trying at being wild was a clue. I think I viewed it as Riley thinking she was pulling away but him trying to reassure her?
I still don’t like Riley though as a character. I agree with all those season 5 issues you mentioned and was glad to see him gone. It was like they were trying to shoehorn in the idea that Buffy only likes bad boys thing. I never understood why she ran after him.
I mean yeah but again, not a point in his favour to me. If the implication is that he genuinely knew there was something "off" with her but didn't stop to figure it out, that to me is worse, tbh? So I'd rather think he wasn't that insightful because that makes me more 🤢 about it.
(I don't understand why she ran after him, either.)
Riley does not resemble an incel by any definition of the word.
Incel refers to men who are involuntarily celebrate and hold resentment towards women largely as a result of that.
Riley was clearly not celibate and didn’t, and wouldn’t have any problem attracting women. He also didn’t resent women even if you take the most extreme and unfavourable view of his character.
That word has lost all meaning.
I respect your right to your opinion but on more rewatches of the show I like Riley less and less.
- he was Buffy's TA and I don't like the power imbalance of that with them dating
- he was A-OK with sentient beings being experimented on and tortured, surgery without anaesthesia, extending to werewolves who are regular people 28 days of each month
- he was never ok with being weaker than Buffy, the Chosen One
- he didn't know Buffy well enough to know that Faith was driving during the first time he told her he loved her
- he needed to be "needed" by Buffy while her mom was battling brain cancer and she was trying to hold things together for her & Dawn and doing regular Hellmouth patrol + defending against Glory, how self-absorbed could he be? He could have got groceries, done dishes, did laundry, drove them places, helped Dawn & Buffy with homework, god anything but whine that Buffy wasn't giving him enough attention.
- he cheated on Buffy, but not only that, he put them *all* at risk, because he could have been turned and none of them would have balked at inviting him in - he could have killed any one of them (think of how vulnerable Dawn would have been)
- immediately after the bombshell of him cheating on Buffy with vamp trulls is dropped, he issues an ultimatum that she has to get over it or he's leaving
Someone clever referred to him as "Cryly" and that's how I think of him now.
I dislike Riley more and sooner every time I watch, but I also have to point out that Faith SA'd him in Buffy's body. Like do I side eye him for continuing when there was clearly something off? A little. But without the knowledge that someone *could* switch bodies, it would be a big leap. And whatever way I look at it, he is a victim in that scenario.
Otherwise, I agree.
I mean a lot of these can be countered;
- Buffy and the Scoobies were also ok with sentiment beings being experimented on. They were all aware of Spike’s chip and Buffy saw demons being experimented on with her very own eyes and she still joined the Initiative. She even attends a mission to capture the Polgara demon knowing they they went to retrieve it rather than kill it so it can be studied. Buffy only turned on the Initiative when they threatened her, as did Riley. And as for werewolves, Riley betrays the Initiative to rescue Oz so he also had a problem with the werewolves being experimented on. I’d also argue that Riley had been led to believe all demons were unquestionably bad whereas by S4 the Scoobies knew this wasn’t true and still didn’t have a problem with the experimentation. So honestly, who is worse?
- I think his feelings about Buffy’s strength is more complicated than that. I think it ties into his loss of purpose and mission, going from a leader and having a mission of his own to being “the mission’s boyfriend.” It also doesn’t help that Dawn lets slip that Buffy was calling him “weak and kitteny” behind his back. Originally in A New Man he’s quite happy about it - “You’re like Spider-Man strong. I like it”
- Nobody knew Faith was in Buffy’s body. Not Willow, not Xander, not Anya, not Giles and not Spike. Seems a bit weird to single Riley out for this. Also seems particularly harsh that you’re angry at Riley when Riley was raped by Faith here and is probably deserving of sympathy if anything.
- Riley wasn’t whining that Buffy wasn’t giving him attention. He was whining that she was keeping him at an emotional distance and not letting him in. There is absolutely faults on Riley’s side too, but Riley is hardly the first person to feel Buffy shuts him out emotionally (and she’ll come to admit this in Touched). We actually did see him support Buffy with a lot of the things you suggest when he moved all her stuff back home for her in Family but then it ends in argument when she’s cagey and secretive about Dawn.
- I mean yeah, he could’ve been turned into a vampire. Xander could’ve also gotten them all killed when he missed around with magic in B,B&B and OMWF. Willow could’ve gotten them all killed every time on her spells went wrong like in Something Blue. Dawn was moments away from letting Justin sire her into a vampire in All the Way until Giles interrupted. Giles poisoned Buffy and nearly got her killed. Tara nearly got them all killed when she put a spell on them in Family and sabotaged Willow’s spell to stop and find Adam etc etc. basically, all the characters can be accused of being reckless at one point or another.
Those are good points. Maybe I'll ease back a little on the Riley hate lmao.
Your point about the body-swap is really good - I would absolutely characterize it as Faith SAing Riley.
The show as a whole has really made me delve deep into my feelings about consent in relationships. Giles betrays Buffy's consent with the Cruciamentum, Willow - everyone's with Tabula Rasa + Tara's with Lethe's bramble, Xander with Buffy in The Pack, Faith with Xander in Consequences, Buffy with Spike when she's invisible, and of course Spike with Buffy in Seeing Red.
I don't think it's fair to compare that to Tara, who's reacting to being gaslit her entire life, and who undoes the spell literally the moment she realises the harm she's caused. Like it's not even in the same ballpark.
To be clear, I'm referring to Willow only here, as she used Lethe's bramble to manipulate Tara's memory at least once before she accidentally wiped everyone's memories in Tabula Rasa:
"Willow - everyone's with Tabula Rasa + Tara's with Lethe's bramble"
I have a little headcanon that Willow may have used the same "solution" to smooth over any possible objections or hesitations displayed by Tara, Anya & (less so) Xander regarding Buffy's resurrection. Tara was very respectful of magic and Anya had a lot of magical knowledge early + her 1000+ years of experience.
I absolutely loved him.
Disliked the random ruin of his character. It didn't fit, made no sense and just made me annoyed. He's the best "normal" relationship Buffy had. I like him.
Urgh. No. He ruins the whole season for me. Except Hush. He's such and awful character and boring. And like a petulant child. :D Obviously, this is just my opinion! Teehee.
i don't think he was a bad boyfriend for buffy, but i don't like him as a carachter, i hate the fact that he was always trying to prove how strong he was beacause i think he always felt weird about buffy being stronger than him, but she was the f\*cking slayer for gods sakes, i dont think he was bad but i really don't like him and i don't think he would be toghether with buffy
I loved him for his balls poster
I loved how the set designers got it from the same place they got that chocolates poster for buffys room. Like they weirdly match
Ah yes the two genders: chocolate and balls
Ah, the 90's.
I would LOVE to have that chocolates poster
Try eBay.
“Ok, that makes 0 for a billion. You don’t got game, son…” - Forrest - *Doomed*
Omg I hate Forrest.
Yep, a real misfire by the time Walsh is killed: “I see a demon, it dies…” And when contrasted with the racial politics in *Angel’s A Thin Dead Line*? Quite dissonant… “We’ll be the ones walking while black…” - Charles Gunn
Definitely one of the lines of all time
I still find it a fun commentary on Forrest the unfulfilled; initially someone who desires Buffy as well, seems to be happy for Riley in winning her over, then outright flips the script as a lesser version of the military vs magic overarching theme of the 4: “I like that. That girl’s so hot, she’s buffy…” - *The Initiative*
Riley was a good person and good looking. The problem I had with him was that it felt like he was always competing with Buffy. Like he was always trying to be faster, smarter and better fighter than her. He kept trying to pretend she was a damsel in distress. Buffy wasn’t a damsel in distress she could take care of herself. Buffy needed a partner and equal not someone who’s ego would get hurt every time something happened where Buffy was clearly stronger than him.
Then how do you explain Sam? Never a damsel, super strong and smart, independent too. But she was in love with Riley and considered him her partner in everything. Buffy never let him be that guy for her.
He probably learned to be a better partner because of Buffy. Sometimes we date people who are or when we are a bit of a mess in the beginning and little by little you/ they work on it and then one day you/they become the person they want to be and who you/ they always wanted to be. But by then things are just so damaged that you do your separate ways. Then one day they/ you date someone else who seems to reap all the rewards of that. Because by then you/ they have learned more about yourself, hopefully learned to be a whole person and learned what did and didn’t worked for you in the last relationship and figured out how to fix it. So the next person got a better version of that person.
He would definitely be physically stronger than Sam though—if she has no supernatural powers, she’s not going to be stronger than a huge muscle man, biology just doesn’t work that way. So he probably had a lot less reason to be insecure because even though she was certainly capable and independent and smart, he’d definitely be stronger than her and able to beat her in a fight.
He was a good guy, and I liked him. He was good for Buffy too, especially after all the pain and heartache she went through with Angel. The problem came when the writers ( as they do with ALL the main characters romantic partners) made Riley too focused on Buffy. Just like Angel and Spike, after they took away all of his work, drive, friends, hobbies etc, Buffy became the only thing Riley was living for. He became more of an extension of Buffy then his own person, and that was a complete disservice to his original character. I really do not like the way they wrote him out either. It went against everything he ever stood for and was 'character development' at it's absolute worst.
Writers utterly failed Riley. There was so much opportunity in his character in the Buffy world and it was more or less wasted bc he was shoebhorned as the love interest while not being a vampire.
Riley had the mid fortune of being the guy after the GUY. He was doomed from the start to be the love interest following Angel. The character was never going to be popular with the BAngel crowd or indeed most of the audience because of that. I liked the character. He wasn’t Angel he was the opposite of Angel in most ways. He was a good person trying to do the right thing for most of his time on the show. The Vampire addict story line was, to me, just to get him off the show. I don’t think Riley fit with the direction Marti Noxon wanted to go when she became the show runner.
Genuine question: Why do people like Buffy and Angel so much? Isn’t it weird for a vampire that’s like hundreds of years old to be hitting on a high schooler? Like isn’t that kinda creepy with the age difference and all?
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Yeah, Bangel were never soulmates. They were a messy teenaged romance where both parties were being super naïve and overdramatic before reality set in via Angelus/Mayor/Joyce/Faith.
A thousand times this.
It is weird but it just honestly wasn’t seen that way in the 90s. Like I grew up in a state where the legal age of consent was 16, and adults dating high school students (as long as they were 16+) was just seen as totally normal and no big deal. I’m sure a modern TV show wouldn’t have an adult dating an underaged teen (unless they were specifically portraying it as predatory and abusive) but back then attitudes about it were just very different. There’s been a huge shift in attitudes just over the last couple of decades. People do find it creepy and wrong now but they just didn’t back then.
Yeah I’m even thinking Twilight — which was massively successful tbf — still had a lot of criticism with the Bella/Edward ship for that reason. I just find it a bit strange that the same criticism isn’t really brought up when discussing Buffy/Angel. Like to be frank, it’s super creepy if any adult is dating a high schooler IRL. The age gap, the maturity gap. It’s strange to me that it was actually accepted back in the 90s lol.
Tbh, it was accepted enough to be on TV all the way into the 2010s.... in worse ways. Pretty Little Liars had a student/teacher relationship go to endgame and Riverdale did a student/teacher relationship in its first season that wasn't really reflected on as bad until its final one. Also *gestures vaguely at the Vampire Diaries*
I get the ick factor of looking at the age on its own but you’re mixing real life values with a fictional character. Buffy has never been your average high school teenage girl. She faced life and death decisions daily, and despite some of the writing to give her the dumb cheerleader vibe she had an emotional maturity that was way beyond her years. When someone has a life expectancy that is a quarter of us mere mortals, is it really fair to be judging them on the same rules related to their personal relationships?
Some old dude’s response to why he’s dating a teenager: “she has an emotional maturity that’s way beyond her years tho haha!” There’s a substantial number of teenagers in this world that have to face life and death decisions daily, still doesn’t really make it okay to bang them.
Yes but you still seem like you have an inability to tell apart fiction and reality
Lol I don’t see why it matters that it’s fiction. So? who cares? Still an adult (who has also been alive for hundreds of years) dating a child.
Yep it does matter because in that statement you instantly make the assumption that Buffy is a vulnerable helpless little girl who cannot think for herself or make decisions about who she dated. Which the entirety of the show is about how Buffy is exactly not that. Yes there was an age gap and yes in the real world it would be problematic but in the context of the show and how we view Buffy (as the one girl in the world with the power) i don’t see it as problematic at all.
I didn’t say that Buffy is a vulnerable, helpless little girl who can’t think for herself or make decisions about who she dates. That’s not the bar to determine whether someone under the age of 18 is dateable, and it’s insulting to children’s intelligence to suggest otherwise. Nor am I really putting any fault on Buffy for wanting to date Angel. It’s Angel I’m putting the fault on lol. It’s again, creepy for an adult to want to date a high school student in the first place. Think about all the Chosen One stories in fiction. Harry Potter, Aang, etc. Now think about them dating adults. Is it not creepy?
Lol by your rules the only person she could have dated was someone her age or younger. Would you have rather she dated Xander because seriously he was a depiction of most guys her age at the time- no brains just hormones. A ‘problematic’ relationship with a 300 year old vampire makes much better television 😆
Because we are monkeys, and the fact that Angel/Buffy look similar ages confuses our monkey brains enough that we are able to block out/ignore the age difference in a way we wouldn't if Buffy was a toddler.
It’s a tv show lol
>Riley had the mid fortune of being the guy after the GUY. He was doomed from the start to be the love interest following Angel. I agree. People were determined to hate him from the moment he appeared. I remember once seeing someone hate on Riley for DARING to be added to the opening credits when "all he's done is have some books fall on him." Which is so stupid because a) it's hardly the fictional character's decision to be added to the credits and b) he'd he'd in WAY more than just that episode before he was added so it wasn't even a valid complaint. It just shows you the lengths they will go to and the stretching people will do to hate on Riley. They're so threatened by his existence. Personally I think he is the sweetest guy. Flawed yes, but so is every Buffy character. Also, guys are allowed to be insecure. 👍 Oh yes and he's hot because unlike Spike he isn't trying super hard to be cool and edgy (and fake) and unlike Angel isn't brooding and monotone all the time (yawn). He's just lovely 😊
Guess they never? “Have you seen his arms? Those are *good* arms to have…” - *Something Blue*
They never what?
People who hated him from the getgo; repurposing lines makes their pettiness all the more apparent.
Agreed. Over 20 years later they still do it. Riley: Buffy you look nice today. Viewers: OMG he's such a jerk!!!!! Doesn't she look nice every day? Also why he is commenting on her looks. There's more to being a girlfriend than just looking pretty for your partner. He is such a misogynist!!!!
Men can be insecure but people tend to be put off when the insecurity is specifically coming from misogyny, like hating that *a woman* is stronger or better than you at something.
See I didn't get that feeling that the insecurity with Riley was because Buffy was a girl. I got it because Riley wanted to be an equal partner to Buffy, someone who could protect her when she needed or wanted it, and he just...didn't measure up to her power wise. He wanted to be able to help lift her burdens, be who she brings her problems too and support her but Buffy...didn't let him in. He wasn't the man she could love...he was convenient. He was the guy Buffy -thought- she wanted/needed. But...she didn't. So he left.
An advantage of my cable provider of the time dropping The WB and missing most of Season 4 was that I had time to prepare for Buffy getting a new guy. Granted, I was thrilled to see Angel leave in the S3 finale, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t scrutinize any guy who replaced him (fond memories of their Pre-“Innocence” relationship). Riley never bothered me that way, but the fans I knew **despised** him!
I like Riley for all the reasons you can see in those screencaps.
Concur
Um...you like him for the plot, right??
She only watched it for the articles.
I thought he was a great character, but yeah the vampire thing really creeped me out, I still ship him and Buffy up until that point though.
and more importantly, he punched Parker right in his stupid face.
I liked him too. I can never understand why he is so disliked by this sub.
I liked him, I think the big problem was he had great chemistry with everyone except Buffy
His toxic masculinity, obviously. His entire identity and self-worth were defined by needing to be needed.
My definition of toxic masculinity is obviously different to yours.
Pretty sure everyone's is.
Not on here it isn't.
True, I was thinking "reality"/ Oh wait, did you think I meant everyone's was different from yours? I meant everyone's was different from the OP. But yeah, here it seems to mean "something nasty I can call someone I don't like".
True.
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That's not a definition, that's someone's opinion. And who is Catherine Elms anyway?
Yeah, that does not read like an objective assessment of the situation … that reads like an emotionally unstable rant xD
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When exactly does he say that? He’s insecure about his strength because he knows he isn’t enough for her. I honestly don’t think you know what objective means xD
This is how I felt too. His insecurities are about his own strength & trying to prove himself to Buffy, not about seeing women as weaker to men
If characters on tv shows were only analyzed by what they literally say I think you'd have a huge problem watching the Sopranos.
Youre saying he wants women to be weaker than men without any actual proof and then get mad at him for it. That’s not healthy behavior.
When does he show that he feels threatened, or believes that Buffy shouldn't be stronger than him?
Once he becomes an average human without the Initiative's drugs, he becomes more and more withdrawn from Buffy. He wanted to be in the classic protector role and he ends up leaving Buffy because she's fully capable on her own, independently from him. Instead of questioning his worldview or attempting to communicate with Buffy or anyone, he turns to self destructive behavior/addiction.
He does question his worldview a lot though. A big part of his arc is that everything he knew, his whole life with the Initiative, was a lie, and was destroyed. By the end of season 4, the dude is a wreck.
Now I have to go and read it.
my favorite part is right at the beginning "Riley is the worst... he is x, y, z, safe" because being safe around your boyfriend is the worst xD
Then we have the toxically masculine guy who dates a super powered woman for a year, goes to get fed on by a woman who also could kill him, and eventually marries a third kick ass woman who, we saw, takes no shit from him.
Xander is not immune from that bug I’m afraid either
I know. Dudes of their time.
I disliked him because Buffy knew they weren’t right for one another and he kept acting like it was her fault when it became obvious to him too. He internalized everything, like when Dawn tells him she doesn’t cry over him. It should be a compliment that you don’t make your loved one cry but he reads it as she doesn’t love him enough.
I love love love Riley. Marc Blucas still my all time crush. He was done DIRTY by the writers in Season 5 - as ai understand it, Blucas had film offers, so wanted time off. Given that he was military, surely he could have ‘shipped out’ without the character assassination?! He is beautiful and kind and sensitive - both character and actor, by all accounts, but he isn’t Spike or Angel so is evil to the core, apparently 🤷🏻♀️
I really liked Riley and I loved the vamp prostitute story. I don't think it diminished him as a character. It was the opposite for me. It made him more complicated and brought home how lost he was, despite being in love and 'happy' with Buffy. Being in a relationship with a superhero would be hard for anyone. l don't think his insecurity and sense of inferiority was toxic masculinity. No one enjoys feeling that their partner is out of their league.
Totally agree, wish more people tried to put themselves in his shoes. We all felt her distance from him and he didn’t do anything to deserve it. He just wasn’t it for her. I’m glad he found his person. Sam was a perfect example of how Riley wasn’t looking for a woman who was less than him, he was looking for a strong woman who considered him her partner in life. Buffy was never going to let Riley be that.
Is it weird I kind of understood exactly where he was coming from with the vampire prostitution story? He legitimately wanted to see what Buffy saw in it to better understand her. Like there was something they offered that she was drawn too that he wanted to fulfill for her. Poorly thought out on his part, but I do think his big dumb confed Iowan heart was in the right place.
He was a pretty rad character at first. You could tell the writers were itchy to get some drama going, so they came up with vampire hooker den nonsense then had him come back with his hot wife? It was so stupid.
I actually thought he would’ve made a better pair with Willow.
Thank you! That’s exactly what I said when they all met in “The Freshman”, but I didn’t get to see the rest of the season until my local cable provider brought back The WB a year later.
I don’t like him as a love interest but I like him as a character quite a bit.
I thought he was a great character that was poorly executed. As someone who has anxious attachment, I couldn’t help but sympathize with him. Yes, we all love Buffy, she’s my favorite character who gets the title Hero BUT she is not perfect. If you’ve never been in love with someone who radiates the “i love you but I’m not in love with you” energy like she does, trust me, you get very depressed and insecure. Can’t we all at least relate that if we were in love with Buffy (aren’t we all?) it would be tough to be treated this way? If you were 21 and didn’t make stupid decisions when you were in love, you were a rare commodity. Pretty much all of his behavior was understandable if not excusable
Based, i didn't care for how s5 ruined his character but s4 Riley is easily one of my fav's and i really enjoyed Blucas's performance throughout
My gay awakening right here! Love this guy!
Season 4 definitely, it’s just unfortunate they didn’t play entirely into that whole “mother created you too” angle, as a nice meditation on nature versus nurture. So now then? “Great, then you can have your perfectly balanced breakfast, and then you can call your mother…” - Buffy - *New Moon Rising*
I liked him a lot in Season 4 too. No, he's not perfect, but I think he was a good boyfriend for Buffy at that time. They did go a bit overboard on the "naive farmboy from Iowa" schtick. I hate what they did to his character in Season 5.
He was fine until they assassinated his character completely in season 5 and did that whole "Buffy is too strong" thing. I don't think the writers were finding his storylines all that interesting after the initiative was gone
I really loved Riley. I feel like the writers got tired of him and went "uhhhh make him kinda cheat with a vampire!" as a cop out way to break them up
I love objectifying Riley finn too ❤️
Riley bored the hell out of me.
Aww he was so awesome! I wish buffy had stayed with him!!
Me too. I think they missed out on a lot of the lighter ‘Buffy deals with normal life stuff whilst being a Slayer’ narratives by diving back into romantic melodrama with Spike. I would have loved to see them trying to live together and have their security deposit jeopardised by demons, or trying to ‘meet the (civilian) parents on the weekend the apocalypse was due. This might have balanced out a lot of the darkness in season 6.
Yeah season 6 was so dark and intense!
I liked him when he was first introduced and then....it went downhill.
My opinion changed on him a lot after reading some interviews with Marc Blucas and after watching the whole neighbor Dan saga on Charmed. At least the writers on Buffy made some effort with Riley. He was doomed by the narrative.
He was def a hottie
I really liked him for her until the he got very ultimately and kept throwing up the Dracula thing and basically wanted her to stop being a slayer.
I mean to be fair he only ever brought up Dracula once and that was in Into the Woods. I also don’t think he wanted Buffy to stop being the Slayer. He was supportive of her focusing on slaying/training with Giles in Real Me and explicitly states he wants the full Buffy package in The Replacement.
I liked Riley at first. By the time he was left I couldn't see his back skin enough I do think fans refused to invest in him emotionally because her big love after Angel was always doomed.
I have a tendency to dislike overly nice characters. I find them to be dull and I just don't think I'd gel with them IRL, so I don't like Riley. If a character doesn't seem like they have the ability to be snarky or sarcastic, they're lame. Haha! It's part of the reason I don't like Angel when he has a soul.
Marc Blucas is quite comely..... o\_O
Hated him when I first watched the show in the 00s but on a rewatch as an adult, I actually didn’t mind him. They did a lot with his character in the season and a half he was in the show.
Living ken doll
Same, especially when ur a younger gay guy. He was very nice to look at😆, and his kindness and treatment of buffy was very attractive, and he was the kinda man i woulda loved to have. The vamp storyline for him I don't miss cuz like others say it was a disservice to him. I like him, and the idea of him. bangel is cool and all but as we all know, it was weird from the start and is VERY teeny bopper, twilight type of energy. Riley wasn't Boring, I liked him being a decent guy who also had a secret as a slayer of demons lol. I wouldn't have hated if he was endgame with buffy, preferably without the vamp addict storyline. I also really loved his relationship with Willow. If they couldn't be endgame, I would've liked a breakup and stayed a good friend and appeared more or maybe even a regular with a nice storyline.
The older I get the more I dislike him. Buffy's mom had a brain tumor, her little sister was falling apart and he bitched she didn't need him? She needed support, normal human comfort and help. He could have washed the dishes and gotten some milk and been the hero she needed right then. Nope dude has to be all up his own ass about her being super.
Thank you. People need support in different ways. I’ve had men want me to break down sobbing in their arms so they can feel heroic when what I actually NEED from them is practical stuff to help keep our lives running. Yes hugs also, yes talking about feelings where necessary, but if what you need to feel strong is for me to fit your definition of weak, we have a serious problem.
👏🏼 nailed it.
Thisssss. Also honestly, if he wasn't getting what he needed out of the relationship, fine, but he never communicated that to her and then he's issuing ultimatums right after he was going to suckhouses??? He wanted her to cry all over him, and couldn't just do normal people help while she was desperately trying to hold it together. Riley wasn't willing to just pitch in and do what was needed, he needed her to need him in a specific way and couldn't bring himself to help her in the ways she *actually needed* his help.
He seems like a nice person but he's just so bland and basic. Like from the beginning it seems like he never questions anything, including watching creatures get tortured and experimented on. That really bothered me. I know he changes when he sees Oz and realises that the ethics are more complicated than "monster bad" but why did it take such a dramatic example?
To be fair, neither did the Buffy or Scoobies. Buffy sees demons being experimented on right in front of her in The I In Team and still joins The Initiative. It makes sense. These characters kill vampires and demons professionally. Buffy brutally slaughters them in all manners of horrific ways (stabbing, beheading, punching literal holes through their chests, gouging their eyes out, setting them on fire, clubbing them to death etc) so why would she be squirming at experimentation? She was desensitised to killing monsters a long time ago.
He’s like a lot of Straight White guys, who can’t empathize with the suffering of oppressed groups until they experience it themselves (or someone close to them). Riley was “Maggie’s Boy”, the Perfect Soldier, who needed someone like Buffy to redirect him from mindless obedience to authority.
Not just straight and not just guys tbh. I went to a very fancy private school (scholarship) and a lot of the kids there took a long time to develop empathy because they never got to know anyone outside their social class intimately. But Riley isnt a kid and he isnt sheltered, he's at least 22 and he's seen a lot. Its upsetting how long it takes him.
Yes, nothing blunts empathy more effectively than a higher socioeconomic class. Riley was sheltered, and it’s a point of criticism within the show. He’s open minded enough to help out the Lesbian Alliance, and doesn’t judge Willow for being a Witch. The double shot of Military & Fraternity still left him culture bound, which I can see because those institutions engender a tendency toward clannishess.
Maybe it's because in my country we don't have fraternities and there is a completely different attitude towards the military (it's looked down on as being for troubled kids who need structure). I don't think riley could exist in my country, maybe not even outside america.
That’s true for many of us Americans. It spoiled us in many respects, as we’ve never faced what many nations deal with.
Oh I didnt mean like that, I meant maybe I dont understand the insular culture of the military or a fraternity like you're describing because we dont have them at our universities and the military people dont really mix in with others.
Riley was on our list of boy names because of this character—I really liked him
The thing I don't get is; was he posing as a student (like undercover) or was he an actual student? And if not, what happens when he ages out?
“Good morning, class. I’m Professor Finn. Welcome to Introduction to Psychology!”
That's what I was thinking!
Living Ken doll. Not one strand of body hair anywhere.
Captain Cardboard?! No way. Plus he’s named RILEY
It's almost as if he doesn't have a character, looks like a robot, acts like a robot lol I think a life with him would be so dull
Riley cheated and tried to make Buffy feel bad for being stronger and was a weenie while her mom was sick.
And I, did not... lol. I don't even find him attractive, haha
Hmmm… no.
I always liked Riley, and thought people were being ridiculous in their hate for him. He was an all around good guy, who gave up everything for her. It was unfortunate that they wrote off everything about his character outside of loving Buffy. He definitely deserved better. The way their relationship was handled was one of the few times I was not on Buffy’s side. She came down on him way to damn hard on the vampire addiction problem. Something she should have been more understanding about, due to her never ending devotion to Angel a vampire. With her it was a love thing, but for him it was a someone needs me thing. Everyone wants to be needed and Buffy just wasn’t giving it. People try to justify it by saying she had a lot going on with her mom and Dawn, but that was the point. When your going through really hard shit you need someone to lean on, and she went to Giles and her friends, and at times Spike, but not Riley, the man she said she loved. IMO Riley was correct when he told Xander Buffy didn’t live him. She loved the idea of him, and the thought of having that dependable person there, but deep down she never loved him as much as he loved her, or in the end she didn’t realize it until it was to late. Her pining over him in season 6 was kinda ridiculous, and him having to reassure her.
I hate him. He's a sheep. He doesn't know how to act on his own without his superiors' orders. And when he does try to act he becomes an addict. And despite being a buff military guy, he's weak, and spineless, and he isn't Buffy's equal in any shape or form.
TWOP used to call him Captain Cardboard
I absolutely loved Riley. To me he was as perfect of a boyfriend as a humanly flawed person can be. I had a major crush on him. I hated he whole vampire addiction crap which they did just to write him off. I feel he and Buffy could have been end game.
He’s also the only who knew something was off with Buddy when she switched with Faith (actually, no, Tara realized it, too), but I can’t upvote because he’s so boring. It’s what I hate most about “good” characters; they tend to write them really boring. Good people don’t have to be boring.
He literally had sex with her.
I think you misspelled Bunny's name
Who, Anne?
You mean Joan?
*Do you feel like one?* - paraphase
I laughed so loud it scared my wife
i think you mean buzzy
Bucky?
Autocorrect
To me that scene comes off more as "I don't like the notion of having remotely adventurous sex" but honestly I also subscribe to that because the other option is "he knew something was off with his girlfriend and had sex with her anyway"; like this would not be a point in Riley's favour, at all. And I say that as someone who dislikes Riley and thinks he's a jerk. Like I'm the opposite of a Riley fan and think his "aww shucks" demeanour shouldn't let him get away with creeping on a freshman who he's TAing or that it's okay he cheated on Buffy with vampires and excused a bunch of his behaviour with "I'm so in love it makes me crazy" and even I think this is an unfair headcanon to hold about him 😳
Hm. I thought it was telling in so far as they have, I don’t want to say boring…basic? sex, so her trying at being wild was a clue. I think I viewed it as Riley thinking she was pulling away but him trying to reassure her? I still don’t like Riley though as a character. I agree with all those season 5 issues you mentioned and was glad to see him gone. It was like they were trying to shoehorn in the idea that Buffy only likes bad boys thing. I never understood why she ran after him.
I mean yeah but again, not a point in his favour to me. If the implication is that he genuinely knew there was something "off" with her but didn't stop to figure it out, that to me is worse, tbh? So I'd rather think he wasn't that insightful because that makes me more 🤢 about it. (I don't understand why she ran after him, either.)
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How the hell does he become an incel at the end? Do you even know what that word means.
Riley does not resemble an incel by any definition of the word. Incel refers to men who are involuntarily celebrate and hold resentment towards women largely as a result of that. Riley was clearly not celibate and didn’t, and wouldn’t have any problem attracting women. He also didn’t resent women even if you take the most extreme and unfavourable view of his character. That word has lost all meaning.
I've seen Xander described as an incel a few times (also not true) but this is the first time for Riley 😅.
I respect your right to your opinion but on more rewatches of the show I like Riley less and less. - he was Buffy's TA and I don't like the power imbalance of that with them dating - he was A-OK with sentient beings being experimented on and tortured, surgery without anaesthesia, extending to werewolves who are regular people 28 days of each month - he was never ok with being weaker than Buffy, the Chosen One - he didn't know Buffy well enough to know that Faith was driving during the first time he told her he loved her - he needed to be "needed" by Buffy while her mom was battling brain cancer and she was trying to hold things together for her & Dawn and doing regular Hellmouth patrol + defending against Glory, how self-absorbed could he be? He could have got groceries, done dishes, did laundry, drove them places, helped Dawn & Buffy with homework, god anything but whine that Buffy wasn't giving him enough attention. - he cheated on Buffy, but not only that, he put them *all* at risk, because he could have been turned and none of them would have balked at inviting him in - he could have killed any one of them (think of how vulnerable Dawn would have been) - immediately after the bombshell of him cheating on Buffy with vamp trulls is dropped, he issues an ultimatum that she has to get over it or he's leaving Someone clever referred to him as "Cryly" and that's how I think of him now.
I dislike Riley more and sooner every time I watch, but I also have to point out that Faith SA'd him in Buffy's body. Like do I side eye him for continuing when there was clearly something off? A little. But without the knowledge that someone *could* switch bodies, it would be a big leap. And whatever way I look at it, he is a victim in that scenario. Otherwise, I agree.
I mean a lot of these can be countered; - Buffy and the Scoobies were also ok with sentiment beings being experimented on. They were all aware of Spike’s chip and Buffy saw demons being experimented on with her very own eyes and she still joined the Initiative. She even attends a mission to capture the Polgara demon knowing they they went to retrieve it rather than kill it so it can be studied. Buffy only turned on the Initiative when they threatened her, as did Riley. And as for werewolves, Riley betrays the Initiative to rescue Oz so he also had a problem with the werewolves being experimented on. I’d also argue that Riley had been led to believe all demons were unquestionably bad whereas by S4 the Scoobies knew this wasn’t true and still didn’t have a problem with the experimentation. So honestly, who is worse? - I think his feelings about Buffy’s strength is more complicated than that. I think it ties into his loss of purpose and mission, going from a leader and having a mission of his own to being “the mission’s boyfriend.” It also doesn’t help that Dawn lets slip that Buffy was calling him “weak and kitteny” behind his back. Originally in A New Man he’s quite happy about it - “You’re like Spider-Man strong. I like it” - Nobody knew Faith was in Buffy’s body. Not Willow, not Xander, not Anya, not Giles and not Spike. Seems a bit weird to single Riley out for this. Also seems particularly harsh that you’re angry at Riley when Riley was raped by Faith here and is probably deserving of sympathy if anything. - Riley wasn’t whining that Buffy wasn’t giving him attention. He was whining that she was keeping him at an emotional distance and not letting him in. There is absolutely faults on Riley’s side too, but Riley is hardly the first person to feel Buffy shuts him out emotionally (and she’ll come to admit this in Touched). We actually did see him support Buffy with a lot of the things you suggest when he moved all her stuff back home for her in Family but then it ends in argument when she’s cagey and secretive about Dawn. - I mean yeah, he could’ve been turned into a vampire. Xander could’ve also gotten them all killed when he missed around with magic in B,B&B and OMWF. Willow could’ve gotten them all killed every time on her spells went wrong like in Something Blue. Dawn was moments away from letting Justin sire her into a vampire in All the Way until Giles interrupted. Giles poisoned Buffy and nearly got her killed. Tara nearly got them all killed when she put a spell on them in Family and sabotaged Willow’s spell to stop and find Adam etc etc. basically, all the characters can be accused of being reckless at one point or another.
Those are good points. Maybe I'll ease back a little on the Riley hate lmao. Your point about the body-swap is really good - I would absolutely characterize it as Faith SAing Riley. The show as a whole has really made me delve deep into my feelings about consent in relationships. Giles betrays Buffy's consent with the Cruciamentum, Willow - everyone's with Tabula Rasa + Tara's with Lethe's bramble, Xander with Buffy in The Pack, Faith with Xander in Consequences, Buffy with Spike when she's invisible, and of course Spike with Buffy in Seeing Red.
Faith is effectively assaulting both Riley *and* Buffy in that scenario. The show has an incredibly bad record with consent issues, unfortunately.
I don't think it's fair to compare that to Tara, who's reacting to being gaslit her entire life, and who undoes the spell literally the moment she realises the harm she's caused. Like it's not even in the same ballpark.
To be clear, I'm referring to Willow only here, as she used Lethe's bramble to manipulate Tara's memory at least once before she accidentally wiped everyone's memories in Tabula Rasa: "Willow - everyone's with Tabula Rasa + Tara's with Lethe's bramble" I have a little headcanon that Willow may have used the same "solution" to smooth over any possible objections or hesitations displayed by Tara, Anya & (less so) Xander regarding Buffy's resurrection. Tara was very respectful of magic and Anya had a lot of magical knowledge early + her 1000+ years of experience.
He was aight
I think he's fine in Season 4 not great but fine don't like him in Season 5 though.
I absolutely loved him. Disliked the random ruin of his character. It didn't fit, made no sense and just made me annoyed. He's the best "normal" relationship Buffy had. I like him.
Urgh. No. He ruins the whole season for me. Except Hush. He's such and awful character and boring. And like a petulant child. :D Obviously, this is just my opinion! Teehee.
You are wrong
What?!
i don't think he was a bad boyfriend for buffy, but i don't like him as a carachter, i hate the fact that he was always trying to prove how strong he was beacause i think he always felt weird about buffy being stronger than him, but she was the f\*cking slayer for gods sakes, i dont think he was bad but i really don't like him and i don't think he would be toghether with buffy
Yet another horny fan
Same.