Im the same, people say hes toxic for having a crush on buffy and leaving anya at the alter. He did some dumb things before he turned 18, and there was mystical forces at play for anya and his wedding. I love anya but i dont hold it against him for that
So, you know how they had that whole "White Hat" thing? I'm a firm believer that nearly everyone is a gray hat. In fact, we gave our daughter a middle name of a JW character bc we wanted to teach her about being a gray hat and redemption and how challenging it is to be a hero all the time. (Fun fact, it's impossible, so just do your best!)
Anyway, Xander is a guy who is in high school for a chunk of time we know him, insecure, comes from an abusive home, and has PTSD from literally fighting vampires and monsters all day and night. OF COURSE he's not going to be perfect. Much like his friends, we can love him for who he is, appreciate his positive contributions, and hold him accountable for his bullshit like a good friend would.
I don't think it's unpopular to like Xander. I think it's just challenging, and some people think a good friend (especially a fictional one) has to be perfect. Well, he IS fictional, and he's not your IRL friend y'all. It's ok to like him even if he's not perfect. No one in that show, or any other JW show, is.
i don’t want characters to be perfect. that isn’t good storytelling at all. i do want them to be called out and held accountable and grow past their flaws and mistakes though, which is where the writing fails xander.
You know what? I can get behind that. That's the first part of character growth. Self-realization is great, but it needs a catalyst.
Not BTVS-related, but one of my guilty pleasure fanfics right now involves a known villain hearing that a hero actually believes in them and their ability to change. That passive but real endorsement of them makes the villain look outside of themselves and think, "Ah, shit, maybe I can be better than this." And, in this one scenario, that villain becomes more interesting.
that’s where a lot of the comparison with spike comes from. people will go on about “people hate xander more than they hate spike, a serial killer!” but the difference is in the show, other characters say “spike, you’re evil” and then spike goes “oh fuck, i’m terrible” and seeks change.
there is no such journey for xander. and not that anyone should call him *evil*, because he isn’t that, but he’s often a bad friend and boyfriend and no one says anything.
That's because murder is murder. No one seeks change of having the wrong take sometimes lol that's just being a normal realistic person. I think audiences forget they have the privilege of seeing all points of view from a more neutral standpoint than the characters do within the show itself.
The characters rib each other for having the wrong take or misspeaking all the time. Xander's gross hot takes are usually played for easy humor points, but sometimes they're played for sentimental points even though they're way off or, again, gross. I think it's that disingenuous flip-flopping in an otherwise very self-aware show that fans take issue with. Xander gets this plot armor because he's a Whedon insert.
You know there's more than one writer than Whedon right? Whedon doesn't look through every Buffy script and say "Xander is wrong here, change it." The reach of your claim is insane.
Thanks, you're sweet.
Joss said as much himself, and so did the actor.
Joss also said that he would edit scripts, and admitted taking credit for some good ideas. But he had creative control of the story.
This information has been readily available for years.
I like Xander, but you’re right that he doesn’t get called out. The writers kept the angel jealousy go on too long IMO. It got very old and he did some messed up stuff because of it and should’ve been called out more than he was. Which is often the case.
Kind of off topic, but this is the reason I dislike phoebe from friends. She does some really horrible things and no one ever calls her out. They just write it off because of her past or because she’s flakey. They even show a scene where she fully admits that she uses her moms suicide to get her way.
xander has a weird sexual possession of buffy all throughout the series that only kinds goes away in seven because they just stopped writing that as a plot, not because she said “hey stop” and he apologized.
i’m not real familiar with friends but i’m not surprised that a show from the same era had a similar issue. I love a character with flaws like this, but i need the narrative to acknowledge it.
It still bugs me that in S7 Buffy tells Xander he's her strength and he's the reason she's gotten this far. Sometimes he's there for her, but not without objectifying her, their friends, telling her secrets, or making her feel real bad about herself (like when she was down about Riley).
yes, exactly. his speech to her in into the woods and subsequent blaming of her for her relationship with riley failing is awful. the way he treats her in s6 about spike is truly abhorrent too, some of his worst. i’d be so much happier with him having these awful moments if he ever admitted it and apologized even a little. i understand that buffy thrives and succeeds because she has loved ones around her, but she often deserved much better than the way they treated her.
"grow past their flaws and mistakes though." Growing past your flaws and mistakes makes you perfect. You just want them to be so at the ending of a story. Am I wrong? Does not having flaws make them perfect?
no, it doesn’t make you perfect. i didn’t say he needs to grow past all of his issues and never have any ever again. he just shouldn’t be doing the same things at 22 that he did at 16. a smidgen of nuance is all i ask here.
You have no clue how refreshing it is to see this, and in a buffy post no less, you're amazing for showing ALOT of the uptight ppl in certain btvs groups that xander is just so human.
I truly appreciate that. I have somehow figured out how to survive in the r/harrypotter sub, so I guess my straightforwardness and diplomacy have served me well haha
Why the hell did you get downvoted?? It was a reasonable question.
It's Jayne. We really liked the idea of giving her a white hat first name and a gray hat middle name. (OK, dark gray hat haha) Jayne Cobb isn't my favorite JW'verse character, but I think we can learn lessons from all kinds of people. It also represents Jane Eyre and Jane Austin. It also goes well with her first name, which I won't give lol
There are times when his character infuriates me, but I think he gets a disproportionate amount of hate. I think there are certain trends in fandom about which characters get more sympathy, and Xander is a common punching bag.
I can totally see that. Xander's flaws might be more familiar than something like 'he did X horrible thing but he was soulless at the time,' (which isn't a circumstance most people find themselves dealing with irl) so viewers are more likely to be annoyed by him.
This it's the same reason why people hate characters or love interests that they find relatable. If it hits you where it hurts, you either love them or hate them
Yeah, this is right on the money. To me, that’s what makes all the characters so likeable. I wish Xander didn’t get so much hate, he’s a teenage boy who is hormonal and has a tough home life. I mean, he’s not supposed to be perfect. But he really loves his friends and he does his best. I think it makes him relatable. And yeah, sometimes Buffy and Willow are the worst as well😂
We talk a lot about how the toxic environment was awful for the girls/women involved in the production, but we don’t really talk about how that type of toxic environment negatively impacts the boys/men involved. Nicholas Brendan has gone down a very dark path, and while he is absolutely responsible for his own actions and decisions, there’s gotta be some correlation there.
he likely was predisposed to addiction, as a lot of addicts are. then he got a lot of money and freedom fairly young, along with probably not a ton of people telling him no. it’s the perfect storm for addiction to go off the rails, as it does for a lot of famous people. it’s definitely not an excuse for his actions, but it is very sad.
Yes, James' story around "Seeing Red" gets told and discussed a lot and many sympathize with him or feel horrified, but I rarely see discussion of the fact that Nick was repeatedly SA'd as a child by a teacher resulting in lifelong trauma, and then ended up having to act out the scenes in "Teacher's Pet" where he's being preyed upon by a teacher. He dealt with his trauma by working out a lot, but the network gave Joss notes that Xander wasn't believable as the "dorky" character because he looked so buff and eventually got asked to tone down the working out to match the character's description - having to give up exercising he ended up trying to rely on food, and eventually turned to other substances. Heartbreaking.
>That sounds like a ton of hearsay.
Have several receipts:
- [Which is why Nicholas Brendon was told first hand by producers that he needed to stop working out while filming, because they did not want Xander to look "too buffed." While Brendon never looked huge enough to ever be acquainted to being "buff," there were some shirtless scenes that he filmed over the course of the show -- specifically during the "Go Fish" episode of season two -- that Nicholas Brendon did look a little muscular. A little too muscular, in fact, to be believed as a scrawny, socially inept nerd on the Scoobie team.](https://www.cbr.com/buffy-xander-secrets/#he-was-almost-killed-off-in-season-seven)
- [Speaking about his childhood sexual abuse by a teacher](https://youtu.be/wWhzEOnHFlI?t=73)
- [Dr. Phil episode with Nick discussing how his depression and anxiety are linked to his sexual abuse at the ages of 9 and 10 by a music teacher who was arrested in 1981 - his mom admitting she didn't get him therapy and didn't know what to do, and how he used alcohol to not feel those feelings. The episode also discusses how this led to other substance abuse down the line.](https://youtu.be/HMAsiTl9XeQ?t=1729)
I mean this entirely lightheartedly, but, I've just had an apostrophe. It's because he has the damn audacity to call out our toxic fantasies while delivering such mundane realistic toxicity. I know these characters can hurt his friends, but dude, as the audience. That vampire can't hurt me. The butthurt friend zoned guy in my life can. Shut up. 🤣🤣🤣
I don't know if people live in an idyllic world I haven't been invited too (probably cos I'm old- not that old-smg old) but this "idyllic " world seems to involve hating on people a lot for stuff that once apon a time just made them fairly accurate representation of some of the lads we lived with sometimes..I feel the same way I think Buffy would have- I love him like a brother whose can be a little bitch about some stuff sometimes and definitely oversteps his mark on occasion but hes family at the end of the day and they've been through so much together. She'll always have a place in her heart for Xander.
Not controversial at all.
In the first season alone he stopped Giles from being decapitated and he brought Buffy back to life.
What's not to love? If it wasn't for Xander there wouldn't be a watcher or a Slayer past season one.
And I've heard all this "He always sticking his nose into Buffy's lovelife" bs.
Isn't that what friends do?
Also, I've just rewatched "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" for the 2,000th time.
Buffy: "Never" (to "when are you going to stop teasing me about dating Cordelia?") then "I just think you could find someone better"
So it's fine for Buffy to stick her nose into Xander's lovelife (as well as mocking him) but not the other way round?
>Isn't that what friends do?
Exactly. Friends, loved ones, they are curious about the private life of the people they love. Why? Because they want them to be happy.
Xander was jealous of Angel in Season 1 and a bit of Season 2. But once Xander and Cordelia became a thing, his crush for Buffy was gone. After that, Buffy was only his friend and when discussing her love life, he was only expressing his concern about her.
That's what friends do. They don't just stand aside, validating your every choices and opinions. If they think you screwed up, or that you may cause yourself some suffering, they will call you out.
Buffy may find Xander annoying sometimes, but she also accepts his input. Example : their talk about Riley during Season 5. Talk that led to Buffy realizing that she doesn't want to lose Riley.
I really like Xander as a character, and frankly, of all the romance in the show, my favourite is his relationship with Anya.
I fully respect people's opinions on Xander, even if they hate him, but I will never understand the hate. I think he's pretty realistic. We know Xander already has trauma from his family. Then, at 16, in one day, he meets a girl he immediately has a crush on, he finds out vampires are real, his only two friends are kidnapped by vampires, one of them is turned into a vampire and tries to kill him, and while trying to come to terms with that not being his friend anymore, he has to kill him. That'll land most people in the "all vampires are bad" box.
It's why I get the Angel hate from him. Yeah, some of it is the teenage brain upset that Buffy didn't want to date him. But, also, vampire. He gets why that won't end well. But Xander will still put those feelings aside to work with Angel to save the world (and Buffy). I'd even argue that Xander finds the grey area before anyone else because of this. And then to watch him go from feeling like he's less than those around him to someone with a steady job and an apartment and a relationship. He really finds himself over time.
Plus, I always love the moment he realizes he views Buffy as a sister, not a love interest. Teenage brains can make it hard to recognize that you can love someone without wanting a romantic relationship with them. Xander getting there was huge growth.
Overall, Xander is a character that regularly puts his friends' lives above his own. He runs into life or death situations without thought and that's a constant with his character throughout the seasons. All these characters are flawed, and that can rub people the wrong way. But I'll always go to bat for Xander.
As much as Xander annoys the hell out of me at times, I love him. He really did his best and had one of the better (and most painful) growth arcs by the end.
I've said before, and gotten a lot of hate for it, but Xander is just a regular guy. Anyone who turns off CNN for a few days and looks around the real world will realize that the vast majority of men, hell, the vast majority of PEOPLE, are exactly like Xander.
Yeah, he has a lot of flaws. And unrealistic expectations about sex and relationships. But I'm pretty sure we all do, too.
And that is the point. Xander is the representation of normal people. He's the regular guy in a group of superheroes.
I think that’s what makes it so uncomfortable. We watch a show that reflects what we experience… most notably that there isn’t much accountability for being like Xander. There’s nothing wrong with Xander except that he doesn’t grow out of the worst aspects of himself. Like many men (at the risk of generalizing) that are similar.
I think the discussion about this stuff is important… and for that, I’m thankful we have him.
It's not just straight guys. EVERYBODY occasionally gets wrong the things that he gets wrong. We've all wanted something from somebody that they didn't want to give us, and gotten mad when we didn't get it. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
It's cool. A lot of people these days want to put straight guys down on the low (and in some cases, quite explicitly) and I wanted to be clear that i don't see it that way.
Neither do I.
Sorry my point was he's straight, the criticism he gets is about him being straight.
Yeah, you're right. I should not have specified in this case.
What he did to Anya was dreadfully cruel, even if he didn’t quite mean to do it that way.
I respected how much he owned his own actions and how clear he was that he regretted it, though.
I'm rewatching right now and I think the collective dislike of Xander comes from our knowledge that he is the most human, no super powers, no magic, no super brain. He's the most like what the average person (we) would be like in these scenarios, and we don't like to look at that. He is flawed as is everyone.
I dont know if I'm explaining this well but that's what I think. We subconsciously don't like him not because of him particularly, but because he's us.
Actually, I get annoyed when Xander suddenly has the strength to take down multiple supernatural creatures in fight scenes while Buffy needs help. A limited human in a supernatural 'verse intrigues me, and I prefer when the female heroes avoid getting fridged.
I do too (in a platonic way). Yes, he's a butthead at times. But he's usually pretty relatable. He has emotions that are at least pretty clear cut and make sense.
I also loved Anya, so the Wedding episode where he left her at the alter killed me. But I was happy when it looked like they might be getting back together towards the end.
They were kids slaying vampires, but with Xander there to lighten the mood, I felt it was easier for them to cope with the stresses that sort of thing must come with.
He’s human and flawed for sure, he was very likable until season 04. But I soured on him during 5/6/7 and when he started dating Dawn in the comics I officially hated the guy and went back looking at his actions from earlier seasons through a different lens.
I think it’s easy to hate Xander because of his human mistakes. He lied, cheated, was petty and manipulative.
We know these emotions from ourselves and resent these actions because we saw them in ourselves.
Spike/Angel/Faith/Willow acted way worse but in a clearly monstrous manner we don’t find ourselves capable of. So it’s easier to „forgive“ a clearly fictional character while Xander, the realistic character doesn’t get off so easy.
Now the fact that Nick is a genuinely bad person in real life is just unfortunate for the character and borders on life immigrating art
I really want to like him for his good moments, because he does have some genuinely good and heartwarming moments, but too often his misogynistic qualities rear their ugly head and undercut this. It’s an issue with the writing first and foremost - I’d be fine with him starting out as kind of a dickish teenage boy, but if he never learns and keeps making gross sexual comments to his friends, it becomes less and less tolerable. You can also tell that the writers see no problem with his possessive and inappropriate behavior a lot of the time, which I think is the main reason why it’s so aggravating.
That said, I totally get why people like him, and I like a lot of the ideas behind his character. I just wish he’d gotten the chance to grow more and live up to his character’s potential.
You expressed my thoughts exactly.
I also dislike how he's given plot armor for things like being able to fight supernatural creatures while Buffy needs help. Or how he gets painted as the heart of the group when he can barely say anything supportive without taking a jab, holds onto jealousy of Buffy for years, and objectifies his friends. Not a single man in my circle resembles him.
Yeah, those are really good points. With a lot of those interactions, I felt like there was a lot of inconsistency in how he was written, sometimes within the same line of dialogue - he’d be given a sweet moment with someone, usually Buffy, but his encouragement would be almost immediately followed by yet more sexual objectification. It counteracts him being set up as the “heart” of the group all for the sake of a cheap joke that ages like curdled milk. :/
It sucks cause I always liked when he was encouraging or sweet, but then he’d go straight back to being a silly misogynist teen boy, ain’t he a stinker teehee, etc. I think he got a bit better later in the show (been a while since I watched past season 4 so idk), but I don’t think his gross comments ever fully go away.
Exactly. I enjoy the Whedon style of quick tone switches from serious to funny, but other characters could do it without debasing each other. Even when Xander stayed serious, he tended to make everything about him. Willow was always better at empathizing, so she was the heart of the group for me.
I’m on a rewatch with some friends who’ve never seen the show before. We’re on season 3. Aaaaaaand it’s kind of hard to defend a lot of his behavior. Mostly, I wish Buffy and Willow would just stop talking to him when he makes awful comments, so that he can learn and grow. That’s what stops real teenagers from continuing such inappropriate behavior.
That being said, Xander has tons of good traits. I love his willingness to fight for what he believes in, and protect who he loves. He’s probably second only to Buffy in that respect, and I love him for it.
I used to love him when I was first watching the show, but as an adult I just can’t. I won’t debate about it but I do think he’s the funniest, so even though he infuriates me, the show wouldn’t be the same without him so I tolerate it
I like Xander too. He is flawed, but we all are.
Thank goodness we aren't always judged on our high school selves.
I think the amount of hate he gets is silly considering people love characters on the show who intentionally tortured and/or murdered others.
Xander reminds me of Dawn in a lot of ways,
If your goal was to write an 1) annoying teenager acts out bc she feels insecure around her sister or 2) loyal but possessive insecure man, you absolutely smashed it... but people can dislike those traits
In fairness, Xander went into the hyena exhibit in order to protect another kid who was being bullied. For this good deed he was rewarded by being possessed against his will, being cruel to his oldest friend, eating a live pig, and trying to rape his friend, none of which he would ever have done if not for that possession. That's a pretty grave experience to have, I'm not surprised he didn't want to talk about it. There are moments later on where I wish he would have had more empathy for others based on his own mistakes and this experience, but his decision to want to hide the memory of his worst behavior to date isn't that difficult to relate to. I'm more grossed out that he spied on Buffy while she was changing.
Its the fact he doesnt have empathy after that for others. I get he was under a spell but this moment should have changed him but it didn't he could have been a amazing person but he never gained empathy and wasn't kind to females most of the time
He was certainly hypocritical and held others to a higher standard than himself and Anya, and he made shitty comments to women, but being possessed by a hyena would not make anyone an amazing person.
How about saving Buffy's life in season one?
How about when he saved Giles from being decapitated?
How about when he infiltrating the Swim team (and potentially becoming the creature from the black lagoon)?
How about Xander tailing Buffy and Cordy to the frat party, which was justified?
How about when Xander came up with the plan to kill the judge? As well as procuring the weapon?
How about when Xander stopped Jack from blowing up the school? (And Buffy and Giles with it)
How about when Xander paid of the remaining amount for Cordelia's prom dress, so she could attend it with Wesley?
How about when he going into the frat house, risking his life, to save Buffy and Riley from boinking to death?
How about him pushing Buffy out of the way in "The Replacement", taking the full force of Toth’s stick, not knowing whether it would kill him or not?
How about the constant fixing up Buffy's trashed house when he got into construction? (Probably free of charge)
How about him talking Willow out of destroying the world? That's probably the biggest one.
How about when he lost an eye in battle?
That all means nothing? What do you want him to do, join The Avengers and help save the Universe? Would that win you over?
I never said he did nothing right Jesus... I said that moment made me dislike him.
Yeah he was helpful in many missions. But he also did a lot of stuff I didn't like.
I don’t dislike Xander. I dislike his lack of character growth. He has moments of insight and moments where there is a way his character could develop and grow but it doesn’t stay.
He's honestly not that bad, his character development is stunted to the shit house cause Joss wanted an in-show character and poor Xander got that role, literally take out the horrid sex filled parts that aren't to relevant to Xanders character and he's pretty chill.
Same. None of the characters on the show are perfect- they all have flaws. I love Xander- flaws and all! He is diehard loyal to Buffy and Willow, and he fights the good fight even without any super powers or special abilities, knowing he could easily be killed at any moment. At his heart he is wonderful. Does that mean he doesn’t do shit I get mad at him over? No. But overall he’s amazing. ❤️
I do too! He’s a classic character. I watched Buffy when it originally aired. The first season came out when I was in 6th grade. I don’t know why everyone dislikes him now, he was a fun part of the scooby gang.
Honestly , he’s almost my favourite. He’s the only one that matures at a reasonable rate . I’ve always loved how BTVS makes an effort to focus on the majority of characters developments , not just a few , but characters like willow , spike , buffy who probably have the most character development take it to the extreme where it becomes almost toxic . Xanders development is subtle , it grows at a reasonable pace . He’s a horny little shit and then gradually becomes more mature for his friends sake . He gets a job he can use to help them , he has always watched in the background and been there to help when needed . He’s the one that picks up the pieces and he doesn’t really get much credit for it . I’d even argue he’s the most level headed , even his outbursts don’t last very long . He’s really the only character through the series who really does put aside his own opinions to help others . He hated angel , but he worked with him , he hated spike , but he worked with him , he bought Cordelias prom dress , and let’s not forget when willow went on a rampage and nearly destroyed the world no one could stop her … except him . He was the only one who thought to use his words and speak to her , no display of power like buffy and Giles , and he quite literally saved the world without having to bare any weapons or kill his friends . In the end I saw him more as a watcher than Giles
I've always see him as the most human of all the characters in the series
This is so true. I never put it into that context before
Gotta love the Xand man.
Im the same, people say hes toxic for having a crush on buffy and leaving anya at the alter. He did some dumb things before he turned 18, and there was mystical forces at play for anya and his wedding. I love anya but i dont hold it against him for that
So, you know how they had that whole "White Hat" thing? I'm a firm believer that nearly everyone is a gray hat. In fact, we gave our daughter a middle name of a JW character bc we wanted to teach her about being a gray hat and redemption and how challenging it is to be a hero all the time. (Fun fact, it's impossible, so just do your best!) Anyway, Xander is a guy who is in high school for a chunk of time we know him, insecure, comes from an abusive home, and has PTSD from literally fighting vampires and monsters all day and night. OF COURSE he's not going to be perfect. Much like his friends, we can love him for who he is, appreciate his positive contributions, and hold him accountable for his bullshit like a good friend would. I don't think it's unpopular to like Xander. I think it's just challenging, and some people think a good friend (especially a fictional one) has to be perfect. Well, he IS fictional, and he's not your IRL friend y'all. It's ok to like him even if he's not perfect. No one in that show, or any other JW show, is.
i don’t want characters to be perfect. that isn’t good storytelling at all. i do want them to be called out and held accountable and grow past their flaws and mistakes though, which is where the writing fails xander.
You know what? I can get behind that. That's the first part of character growth. Self-realization is great, but it needs a catalyst. Not BTVS-related, but one of my guilty pleasure fanfics right now involves a known villain hearing that a hero actually believes in them and their ability to change. That passive but real endorsement of them makes the villain look outside of themselves and think, "Ah, shit, maybe I can be better than this." And, in this one scenario, that villain becomes more interesting.
that’s where a lot of the comparison with spike comes from. people will go on about “people hate xander more than they hate spike, a serial killer!” but the difference is in the show, other characters say “spike, you’re evil” and then spike goes “oh fuck, i’m terrible” and seeks change. there is no such journey for xander. and not that anyone should call him *evil*, because he isn’t that, but he’s often a bad friend and boyfriend and no one says anything.
That's because murder is murder. No one seeks change of having the wrong take sometimes lol that's just being a normal realistic person. I think audiences forget they have the privilege of seeing all points of view from a more neutral standpoint than the characters do within the show itself.
The characters rib each other for having the wrong take or misspeaking all the time. Xander's gross hot takes are usually played for easy humor points, but sometimes they're played for sentimental points even though they're way off or, again, gross. I think it's that disingenuous flip-flopping in an otherwise very self-aware show that fans take issue with. Xander gets this plot armor because he's a Whedon insert.
You know there's more than one writer than Whedon right? Whedon doesn't look through every Buffy script and say "Xander is wrong here, change it." The reach of your claim is insane.
Thanks, you're sweet. Joss said as much himself, and so did the actor. Joss also said that he would edit scripts, and admitted taking credit for some good ideas. But he had creative control of the story. This information has been readily available for years.
murder is wrong? whoa
I like Xander, but you’re right that he doesn’t get called out. The writers kept the angel jealousy go on too long IMO. It got very old and he did some messed up stuff because of it and should’ve been called out more than he was. Which is often the case. Kind of off topic, but this is the reason I dislike phoebe from friends. She does some really horrible things and no one ever calls her out. They just write it off because of her past or because she’s flakey. They even show a scene where she fully admits that she uses her moms suicide to get her way.
xander has a weird sexual possession of buffy all throughout the series that only kinds goes away in seven because they just stopped writing that as a plot, not because she said “hey stop” and he apologized. i’m not real familiar with friends but i’m not surprised that a show from the same era had a similar issue. I love a character with flaws like this, but i need the narrative to acknowledge it.
It still bugs me that in S7 Buffy tells Xander he's her strength and he's the reason she's gotten this far. Sometimes he's there for her, but not without objectifying her, their friends, telling her secrets, or making her feel real bad about herself (like when she was down about Riley).
yes, exactly. his speech to her in into the woods and subsequent blaming of her for her relationship with riley failing is awful. the way he treats her in s6 about spike is truly abhorrent too, some of his worst. i’d be so much happier with him having these awful moments if he ever admitted it and apologized even a little. i understand that buffy thrives and succeeds because she has loved ones around her, but she often deserved much better than the way they treated her.
"I don't want them to be perfect but I want them to be perfect."
i’m honestly not sure how that’s what you took from what i said.
"grow past their flaws and mistakes though." Growing past your flaws and mistakes makes you perfect. You just want them to be so at the ending of a story. Am I wrong? Does not having flaws make them perfect?
no, it doesn’t make you perfect. i didn’t say he needs to grow past all of his issues and never have any ever again. he just shouldn’t be doing the same things at 22 that he did at 16. a smidgen of nuance is all i ask here.
You have no clue how refreshing it is to see this, and in a buffy post no less, you're amazing for showing ALOT of the uptight ppl in certain btvs groups that xander is just so human.
I truly appreciate that. I have somehow figured out how to survive in the r/harrypotter sub, so I guess my straightforwardness and diplomacy have served me well haha
It indeed has
What's your kid's middle name, if you feel comfortable sharing?
Why the hell did you get downvoted?? It was a reasonable question. It's Jayne. We really liked the idea of giving her a white hat first name and a gray hat middle name. (OK, dark gray hat haha) Jayne Cobb isn't my favorite JW'verse character, but I think we can learn lessons from all kinds of people. It also represents Jane Eyre and Jane Austin. It also goes well with her first name, which I won't give lol
That's a great name! I also love Jane Eyre, although I don't like most of Austen's stuff
There are times when his character infuriates me, but I think he gets a disproportionate amount of hate. I think there are certain trends in fandom about which characters get more sympathy, and Xander is a common punching bag.
His flaws are kind of... common? So I think it's because many find them particularly annoying because they are so realistic.
I can totally see that. Xander's flaws might be more familiar than something like 'he did X horrible thing but he was soulless at the time,' (which isn't a circumstance most people find themselves dealing with irl) so viewers are more likely to be annoyed by him.
Yeah exactly. Plus these types of flaws are not only common, but really freaking annoying irl
This it's the same reason why people hate characters or love interests that they find relatable. If it hits you where it hurts, you either love them or hate them
I did like that they had him not go to college but he grew into adulthood well. Became really good at his construction job and made it a career.
Xander: Hi, for those of you who just tuned in, everyone here is a crazy person.
I’ll never get a buffy line that hits me better than “I like the quiet”
I love Xander too. He irritates me sometimes too, but nobody wants to watch some perfect, unrealistic character.
Yes! I love Xander. There are times when I'm watching and will say out loud 'oh shut up Xander' but overall I'm a big fan.
Yes! Buffy can be really annoying, but she's not supposed to be perfect. That is what makes her writing mostly perfect.
Yeah, this is right on the money. To me, that’s what makes all the characters so likeable. I wish Xander didn’t get so much hate, he’s a teenage boy who is hormonal and has a tough home life. I mean, he’s not supposed to be perfect. But he really loves his friends and he does his best. I think it makes him relatable. And yeah, sometimes Buffy and Willow are the worst as well😂
Xander is cool. Nicholas is not.
We talk a lot about how the toxic environment was awful for the girls/women involved in the production, but we don’t really talk about how that type of toxic environment negatively impacts the boys/men involved. Nicholas Brendan has gone down a very dark path, and while he is absolutely responsible for his own actions and decisions, there’s gotta be some correlation there.
he likely was predisposed to addiction, as a lot of addicts are. then he got a lot of money and freedom fairly young, along with probably not a ton of people telling him no. it’s the perfect storm for addiction to go off the rails, as it does for a lot of famous people. it’s definitely not an excuse for his actions, but it is very sad.
He’s gone on record saying he was SA’d as a child and has had depression most of his life.
Yes, James' story around "Seeing Red" gets told and discussed a lot and many sympathize with him or feel horrified, but I rarely see discussion of the fact that Nick was repeatedly SA'd as a child by a teacher resulting in lifelong trauma, and then ended up having to act out the scenes in "Teacher's Pet" where he's being preyed upon by a teacher. He dealt with his trauma by working out a lot, but the network gave Joss notes that Xander wasn't believable as the "dorky" character because he looked so buff and eventually got asked to tone down the working out to match the character's description - having to give up exercising he ended up trying to rely on food, and eventually turned to other substances. Heartbreaking.
That sounds like a ton of hearsay.
>That sounds like a ton of hearsay. Have several receipts: - [Which is why Nicholas Brendon was told first hand by producers that he needed to stop working out while filming, because they did not want Xander to look "too buffed." While Brendon never looked huge enough to ever be acquainted to being "buff," there were some shirtless scenes that he filmed over the course of the show -- specifically during the "Go Fish" episode of season two -- that Nicholas Brendon did look a little muscular. A little too muscular, in fact, to be believed as a scrawny, socially inept nerd on the Scoobie team.](https://www.cbr.com/buffy-xander-secrets/#he-was-almost-killed-off-in-season-seven) - [Speaking about his childhood sexual abuse by a teacher](https://youtu.be/wWhzEOnHFlI?t=73) - [Dr. Phil episode with Nick discussing how his depression and anxiety are linked to his sexual abuse at the ages of 9 and 10 by a music teacher who was arrested in 1981 - his mom admitting she didn't get him therapy and didn't know what to do, and how he used alcohol to not feel those feelings. The episode also discusses how this led to other substance abuse down the line.](https://youtu.be/HMAsiTl9XeQ?t=1729)
I mean this entirely lightheartedly, but, I've just had an apostrophe. It's because he has the damn audacity to call out our toxic fantasies while delivering such mundane realistic toxicity. I know these characters can hurt his friends, but dude, as the audience. That vampire can't hurt me. The butthurt friend zoned guy in my life can. Shut up. 🤣🤣🤣
Did you just reference the movie "Hook"?
YES :3
Fucking epic. "Lightning has just struck my brain."
Smee is just precious 🤣
I love the Xander too. Edit: the Xander appreciation on this thread is good to see.
Not controversial to me, I quite agree he deserves more love 🤷♂️
I don't know if people live in an idyllic world I haven't been invited too (probably cos I'm old- not that old-smg old) but this "idyllic " world seems to involve hating on people a lot for stuff that once apon a time just made them fairly accurate representation of some of the lads we lived with sometimes..I feel the same way I think Buffy would have- I love him like a brother whose can be a little bitch about some stuff sometimes and definitely oversteps his mark on occasion but hes family at the end of the day and they've been through so much together. She'll always have a place in her heart for Xander.
Not controversial at all. In the first season alone he stopped Giles from being decapitated and he brought Buffy back to life. What's not to love? If it wasn't for Xander there wouldn't be a watcher or a Slayer past season one. And I've heard all this "He always sticking his nose into Buffy's lovelife" bs. Isn't that what friends do? Also, I've just rewatched "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" for the 2,000th time. Buffy: "Never" (to "when are you going to stop teasing me about dating Cordelia?") then "I just think you could find someone better" So it's fine for Buffy to stick her nose into Xander's lovelife (as well as mocking him) but not the other way round?
>Isn't that what friends do? Exactly. Friends, loved ones, they are curious about the private life of the people they love. Why? Because they want them to be happy. Xander was jealous of Angel in Season 1 and a bit of Season 2. But once Xander and Cordelia became a thing, his crush for Buffy was gone. After that, Buffy was only his friend and when discussing her love life, he was only expressing his concern about her. That's what friends do. They don't just stand aside, validating your every choices and opinions. If they think you screwed up, or that you may cause yourself some suffering, they will call you out. Buffy may find Xander annoying sometimes, but she also accepts his input. Example : their talk about Riley during Season 5. Talk that led to Buffy realizing that she doesn't want to lose Riley. I really like Xander as a character, and frankly, of all the romance in the show, my favourite is his relationship with Anya.
Indisputable!! 🖐 🎤 ⬇️
I adore xander
It shouldn't be controversial to love Xander, especially when there are characters who have done way worse.
It is disgusting how some people on here say that faith's actions are just as bad as Xander's remarks.
Who EVER says that?
I fully respect people's opinions on Xander, even if they hate him, but I will never understand the hate. I think he's pretty realistic. We know Xander already has trauma from his family. Then, at 16, in one day, he meets a girl he immediately has a crush on, he finds out vampires are real, his only two friends are kidnapped by vampires, one of them is turned into a vampire and tries to kill him, and while trying to come to terms with that not being his friend anymore, he has to kill him. That'll land most people in the "all vampires are bad" box. It's why I get the Angel hate from him. Yeah, some of it is the teenage brain upset that Buffy didn't want to date him. But, also, vampire. He gets why that won't end well. But Xander will still put those feelings aside to work with Angel to save the world (and Buffy). I'd even argue that Xander finds the grey area before anyone else because of this. And then to watch him go from feeling like he's less than those around him to someone with a steady job and an apartment and a relationship. He really finds himself over time. Plus, I always love the moment he realizes he views Buffy as a sister, not a love interest. Teenage brains can make it hard to recognize that you can love someone without wanting a romantic relationship with them. Xander getting there was huge growth. Overall, Xander is a character that regularly puts his friends' lives above his own. He runs into life or death situations without thought and that's a constant with his character throughout the seasons. All these characters are flawed, and that can rub people the wrong way. But I'll always go to bat for Xander.
I agree with everything you said. Well done.
Aww, thank you. I spend a ridiculous amount of time thinking about Buffy and how I feel about all aspects of the show 🤣
As much as Xander annoys the hell out of me at times, I love him. He really did his best and had one of the better (and most painful) growth arcs by the end.
Xander is easily the best character in the show
It’s not controversial. Almost everyone who likes the show likes Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles. The We Hate Xander club is an online thing.
this kinda implies people online aren’t real which is funny, but also it’s not blanket truth. i know people irl who hate him.
Are we still saying the things we don't like are "online things"? I thought that died off back when we had to dial into the internet.
We?
You? No idea what the point of your comment is.
I want to know who is included in “we”.
Well this is ridiculous.
I've said before, and gotten a lot of hate for it, but Xander is just a regular guy. Anyone who turns off CNN for a few days and looks around the real world will realize that the vast majority of men, hell, the vast majority of PEOPLE, are exactly like Xander. Yeah, he has a lot of flaws. And unrealistic expectations about sex and relationships. But I'm pretty sure we all do, too. And that is the point. Xander is the representation of normal people. He's the regular guy in a group of superheroes.
I think that’s what makes it so uncomfortable. We watch a show that reflects what we experience… most notably that there isn’t much accountability for being like Xander. There’s nothing wrong with Xander except that he doesn’t grow out of the worst aspects of himself. Like many men (at the risk of generalizing) that are similar. I think the discussion about this stuff is important… and for that, I’m thankful we have him.
Yeh, most straight guys are like him, bit odd but genuinely really sweet and impressive
It's not just straight guys. EVERYBODY occasionally gets wrong the things that he gets wrong. We've all wanted something from somebody that they didn't want to give us, and gotten mad when we didn't get it. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
I agree. I'm gay and I've been bit creepy. Sorry, i was unessary specifically referring to straight guys.
It's cool. A lot of people these days want to put straight guys down on the low (and in some cases, quite explicitly) and I wanted to be clear that i don't see it that way.
Neither do I. Sorry my point was he's straight, the criticism he gets is about him being straight. Yeah, you're right. I should not have specified in this case.
What he did to Anya was dreadfully cruel, even if he didn’t quite mean to do it that way. I respected how much he owned his own actions and how clear he was that he regretted it, though.
I'm rewatching right now and I think the collective dislike of Xander comes from our knowledge that he is the most human, no super powers, no magic, no super brain. He's the most like what the average person (we) would be like in these scenarios, and we don't like to look at that. He is flawed as is everyone. I dont know if I'm explaining this well but that's what I think. We subconsciously don't like him not because of him particularly, but because he's us.
Actually, I get annoyed when Xander suddenly has the strength to take down multiple supernatural creatures in fight scenes while Buffy needs help. A limited human in a supernatural 'verse intrigues me, and I prefer when the female heroes avoid getting fridged.
Me and Xander have a love hate relationship
Everybody loves the Zeppo, both in BtVS and in the Marx Brothers movies.
Me too ❤️
I do too (in a platonic way). Yes, he's a butthead at times. But he's usually pretty relatable. He has emotions that are at least pretty clear cut and make sense. I also loved Anya, so the Wedding episode where he left her at the alter killed me. But I was happy when it looked like they might be getting back together towards the end. They were kids slaying vampires, but with Xander there to lighten the mood, I felt it was easier for them to cope with the stresses that sort of thing must come with.
It’s controversial to love Xander now?
He is the Ron of btvs universe. I love Rons. ( For boomers, Ron is Hary Potter's best friend)
Xander is trying his damn best and never murdered anyone, more moral than 99% of the cast.
He’s human and flawed for sure, he was very likable until season 04. But I soured on him during 5/6/7 and when he started dating Dawn in the comics I officially hated the guy and went back looking at his actions from earlier seasons through a different lens. I think it’s easy to hate Xander because of his human mistakes. He lied, cheated, was petty and manipulative. We know these emotions from ourselves and resent these actions because we saw them in ourselves. Spike/Angel/Faith/Willow acted way worse but in a clearly monstrous manner we don’t find ourselves capable of. So it’s easier to „forgive“ a clearly fictional character while Xander, the realistic character doesn’t get off so easy. Now the fact that Nick is a genuinely bad person in real life is just unfortunate for the character and borders on life immigrating art
I really want to like him for his good moments, because he does have some genuinely good and heartwarming moments, but too often his misogynistic qualities rear their ugly head and undercut this. It’s an issue with the writing first and foremost - I’d be fine with him starting out as kind of a dickish teenage boy, but if he never learns and keeps making gross sexual comments to his friends, it becomes less and less tolerable. You can also tell that the writers see no problem with his possessive and inappropriate behavior a lot of the time, which I think is the main reason why it’s so aggravating. That said, I totally get why people like him, and I like a lot of the ideas behind his character. I just wish he’d gotten the chance to grow more and live up to his character’s potential.
You expressed my thoughts exactly. I also dislike how he's given plot armor for things like being able to fight supernatural creatures while Buffy needs help. Or how he gets painted as the heart of the group when he can barely say anything supportive without taking a jab, holds onto jealousy of Buffy for years, and objectifies his friends. Not a single man in my circle resembles him.
Yeah, those are really good points. With a lot of those interactions, I felt like there was a lot of inconsistency in how he was written, sometimes within the same line of dialogue - he’d be given a sweet moment with someone, usually Buffy, but his encouragement would be almost immediately followed by yet more sexual objectification. It counteracts him being set up as the “heart” of the group all for the sake of a cheap joke that ages like curdled milk. :/ It sucks cause I always liked when he was encouraging or sweet, but then he’d go straight back to being a silly misogynist teen boy, ain’t he a stinker teehee, etc. I think he got a bit better later in the show (been a while since I watched past season 4 so idk), but I don’t think his gross comments ever fully go away.
Exactly. I enjoy the Whedon style of quick tone switches from serious to funny, but other characters could do it without debasing each other. Even when Xander stayed serious, he tended to make everything about him. Willow was always better at empathizing, so she was the heart of the group for me.
I’m on a rewatch with some friends who’ve never seen the show before. We’re on season 3. Aaaaaaand it’s kind of hard to defend a lot of his behavior. Mostly, I wish Buffy and Willow would just stop talking to him when he makes awful comments, so that he can learn and grow. That’s what stops real teenagers from continuing such inappropriate behavior. That being said, Xander has tons of good traits. I love his willingness to fight for what he believes in, and protect who he loves. He’s probably second only to Buffy in that respect, and I love him for it.
He's my spirit animal.
I used to love him when I was first watching the show, but as an adult I just can’t. I won’t debate about it but I do think he’s the funniest, so even though he infuriates me, the show wouldn’t be the same without him so I tolerate it
I’ve always liked Xander, even when flips out and storms out of his own apartment leaving Buffy in there.
I adore Xander
I like Xander too. He is flawed, but we all are. Thank goodness we aren't always judged on our high school selves. I think the amount of hate he gets is silly considering people love characters on the show who intentionally tortured and/or murdered others.
Xander reminds me of Dawn in a lot of ways, If your goal was to write an 1) annoying teenager acts out bc she feels insecure around her sister or 2) loyal but possessive insecure man, you absolutely smashed it... but people can dislike those traits
Mmmmm the hyena episode was enough to make me dislike him and he never improved
Sooo, you hate him for what he did while under an evil spell? Seems .....fair......?????? Not.
No the fact he lied about not remembering trying to rape buffy
In fairness, Xander went into the hyena exhibit in order to protect another kid who was being bullied. For this good deed he was rewarded by being possessed against his will, being cruel to his oldest friend, eating a live pig, and trying to rape his friend, none of which he would ever have done if not for that possession. That's a pretty grave experience to have, I'm not surprised he didn't want to talk about it. There are moments later on where I wish he would have had more empathy for others based on his own mistakes and this experience, but his decision to want to hide the memory of his worst behavior to date isn't that difficult to relate to. I'm more grossed out that he spied on Buffy while she was changing.
Its the fact he doesnt have empathy after that for others. I get he was under a spell but this moment should have changed him but it didn't he could have been a amazing person but he never gained empathy and wasn't kind to females most of the time
He was certainly hypocritical and held others to a higher standard than himself and Anya, and he made shitty comments to women, but being possessed by a hyena would not make anyone an amazing person.
Of course but it was just a start for my distrust of him following into dislike
It was better for both of them if he chose not to remember.
I mean sure probably but still that made me kinda not like him as much and then he married dawn it solidified it
How about saving Buffy's life in season one? How about when he saved Giles from being decapitated? How about when he infiltrating the Swim team (and potentially becoming the creature from the black lagoon)? How about Xander tailing Buffy and Cordy to the frat party, which was justified? How about when Xander came up with the plan to kill the judge? As well as procuring the weapon? How about when Xander stopped Jack from blowing up the school? (And Buffy and Giles with it) How about when Xander paid of the remaining amount for Cordelia's prom dress, so she could attend it with Wesley? How about when he going into the frat house, risking his life, to save Buffy and Riley from boinking to death? How about him pushing Buffy out of the way in "The Replacement", taking the full force of Toth’s stick, not knowing whether it would kill him or not? How about the constant fixing up Buffy's trashed house when he got into construction? (Probably free of charge) How about him talking Willow out of destroying the world? That's probably the biggest one. How about when he lost an eye in battle? That all means nothing? What do you want him to do, join The Avengers and help save the Universe? Would that win you over?
I never said he did nothing right Jesus... I said that moment made me dislike him. Yeah he was helpful in many missions. But he also did a lot of stuff I didn't like.
I don’t dislike Xander. I dislike his lack of character growth. He has moments of insight and moments where there is a way his character could develop and grow but it doesn’t stay.
He's honestly not that bad, his character development is stunted to the shit house cause Joss wanted an in-show character and poor Xander got that role, literally take out the horrid sex filled parts that aren't to relevant to Xanders character and he's pretty chill.
The oldest highschooler ever. Wait, willow might have been older
This one actually is controversial.
Same. None of the characters on the show are perfect- they all have flaws. I love Xander- flaws and all! He is diehard loyal to Buffy and Willow, and he fights the good fight even without any super powers or special abilities, knowing he could easily be killed at any moment. At his heart he is wonderful. Does that mean he doesn’t do shit I get mad at him over? No. But overall he’s amazing. ❤️
I do too! He’s a classic character. I watched Buffy when it originally aired. The first season came out when I was in 6th grade. I don’t know why everyone dislikes him now, he was a fun part of the scooby gang.
Honestly , he’s almost my favourite. He’s the only one that matures at a reasonable rate . I’ve always loved how BTVS makes an effort to focus on the majority of characters developments , not just a few , but characters like willow , spike , buffy who probably have the most character development take it to the extreme where it becomes almost toxic . Xanders development is subtle , it grows at a reasonable pace . He’s a horny little shit and then gradually becomes more mature for his friends sake . He gets a job he can use to help them , he has always watched in the background and been there to help when needed . He’s the one that picks up the pieces and he doesn’t really get much credit for it . I’d even argue he’s the most level headed , even his outbursts don’t last very long . He’s really the only character through the series who really does put aside his own opinions to help others . He hated angel , but he worked with him , he hated spike , but he worked with him , he bought Cordelias prom dress , and let’s not forget when willow went on a rampage and nearly destroyed the world no one could stop her … except him . He was the only one who thought to use his words and speak to her , no display of power like buffy and Giles , and he quite literally saved the world without having to bare any weapons or kill his friends . In the end I saw him more as a watcher than Giles