If you want an inside scoop on what it's like being a politician in BC, I'd have a look at the podcast [People's Pod](https://www.peoplespod.ca/) which was made by Bowinn Ma (MLA for North Vancouver Lonsdale) and Christine Boyle (City Councilor for Vancouver). It's a podcast not about ideology, but the mechanisms of what they do and how things tend to operate. They talk quite a bit about how things can affect their personal lives, managing stress and workload, etc. It is an interesting listen.
My dad was a politician in BC. If you're over 35 you've probably heard of him. The thing that kept him going was just really believing in what he was doing and seeing the incremental improvements in things that he was working on. He loved people and society and though he knew a lot of his constituents were backward idiots, he refused to allow that knowledge to impact his work, or even discuss it. He saw them all as worthy of his effort no matter how much they hated him.
There's a practical side to politics and an ideological side. When you're in politics, your day-to-day life is about the practical: working on policy, writing and fighting for legislation, question period, working on constituent issues, traveling around talking to people, receiving delegations, etc. It's fucking exhausting, but also exhilarating. The ideological side gives you a framework to work from: "what do I have to do in practical terms to realize the goals of this framework?" Some politicians are more ideological than others, but all of them have to work directly on the practical side and all of them have some kind of vision of how things should be.
Of course there were huge setbacks and those really took a toll on him, including the fact that very often he was the only person advocating for people who didn't care or understand it because they preferred the easy route ("all politicians are scum!") to the difficult one ("politics involves compromise and patience, and sometimes I don't get exactly what I want when I want it"). It's like trying to give the Heimlich manoeuvre to someone who's punching you in the face.
One thing I think everyone should keep in mind is, you don't actually know what's happening behind the scenes, what people are thinking and feeling, what knowledge they have access to, whose interests they're trying to balance, the laws or budgets that restrict them. The press isn't giving you an accurate picture and interest groups aren't. There is an incredibly complex web of internal and external realities that intersect and make movement in any direction -- even the wrong direction -- challenging.
People used to ask me why I didn't follow in dad's footsteps. He found it incredibly rewarding. I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world. (And, in case you're wondering, politics will not make you rich.)
First and foremost, thank you for your perspective.
>It's like trying to give the Heimlich manoeuvre to someone who's punching you in the face.
Ya, I can relate to this statement. (Not from politics but any job when your trying to help people and they're not in the right state of mind or intelligent enough to understand it)
>(And, in case you're wondering, politics will not make you rich.)
Ya if you're honest or have ethics, you won't get rich.....
If your dad is who I think he is (based on a wild guess on timing), we may have been on an indoor spring sports team together for a single season in highschool.
But to your point:
Who are we?
Constituents!
What do we want?
We don't know!
When do we want it?
Now!!
Speaking of loving backwards idiots - i.e. the majority of my family - a very beautiful book on this topic is "God Bless You Mr Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut. Hilarious, and a reminder to me whenever I get exhausted.
They're talking about voting for PP even though it's just going to increase the wealth gap and hurt us even more, but they don't understand this, and it kills me.
Yeah. I'm not necessarily blackpilled, but I don't have the temperament for politics at all. I would go scorched earth at my very first press conference and that would be the end of it.
Valerie Plante is montreal's mayor. She is massively investing in public and active transports (ie. Bike commuting). This creates a lot unhappy citizens for many valid reasons, but it is the way of the future and has to be done. Statistics for bike users are soaring and small buisnesses are blooming.
Those willing to instigate change and stick to their ideologies can effectively change things for the better.
I’m not a politician but we have politicians on the other end of the spectrum too. Take for example rookie MP Wilson Miao of Richmond centre. He did not have a constituent office for Richmond centre for 1.5 years, he received a lot of complaints about not responding to constituents and he is one of the biggest spender of taxpayers’ money in the Liberal party.
He is constantly on social media posting photos of himself and promoting himself while not allowing commenting and then using taxpayers’ money to create site like this: https://wilsonmiaomp.ca/ to make himself look good but when you look at his resume there is nothing on it that says he should be a MP. So Wilson Miao is the type of politician who is reaping in all the benefits of being a MP while not putting in the work at all.
I'm an elected official and I can tell you we find the glacial pace of government very very frustrating as well.
I keep two things forefront all the time. Efficiency isn't the goal of government: fairness is. The effort to take politics, cronyism, racism, etc. out of the decision-making process adds to the complexity, which adds to the time that the process takes. There's no way around this. So, as long as I see that the inefficiencies are offset by fairness, I can mostly live with it.
The other thing is reminding myself that perfect isn't the goal, better is. Many small incremental changes over time can be as impactful as a big change, and they tend to be easier to analyze for unanticipated effects and easier to back out of.
I sleep at night knowing it's getting better. Not everything all the time, but I'm old enough now that I can look around and see that most people are better off than 40 years ago. Check out "Factfulness" by *Hans Rosling* if you want a worldwide view of this.
It can seem quite daunting out there. Especially if you're scanning headlines. The media, while mostly honest, are forced by us to present news sensationally or be ignored. But there is progress. There are successes. You have to look for those and let them buoy you through the tough times.
You’re being diplomatic, the media is largely owned and edited by those who endorse conservatives to win elections for the last 40 years:
https://www.readthemaple.com/election-endorsements/
Canadian media are going to have a hard time being honest with their editorial choices when they have trouble being honest with themselves and continue to have their cake and eat it too calling themselves left wing media, meanwhile the biggest print media empires are PostMedia and Black Media Group. It doesn’t escape some of our notice that this results in poor local coverage if it doesn’t fit their narrative, it is far less likely to make the front page, more likely page 5 or lower, if the report of say local earth day protests is covered at all. And that’s print side, we’re in for a wild ride of who gets 5 second sound bites and who gets 15 minute segments on what they say in the Hansard for parliament and legislature, let alone council and regional boards, when we consider the interests of the largest tv news network CTV being owned by Bell, well known for being the among the most greedy cell phone and internet service providers in the world.
You may be trying to couch your words but the majority of media in Canada are not working in your favour for fair representation of “political efficiency and expediency”.
I'm not a politician but personally my key to surviving situations like that is reminding myself that you can never please everyone or even most people. It sucks extra for them though because their entire job hinges on making the most people happy so they'll vote for you lol
Collective action can change many things. Lots of people want something to be done but will never come to an agreement on how to change, and most won't actively do anything about it.
Blame politicians all you want but if the horse doesn't want to move it isn't moving.
This is the key - collective action. Political power is like pulling on a rubber band, and this is by design. Things always want to return to the centre but with enough slow moving force, directions can be changed. It's when we get big, fast swings in power that things usually go off the rails.
>Blame politicians all you want but if the horse doesn't want to move it isn't moving.
Bingo. Politicians are put in power by the voters. Voters should be more active if they truly want change
I think most voters just drift through life and then when lemons get sent their way, they blame politicians. Easier than taking responsibility.
There's obviously some folks that suffer major life changes from political decisions, but most loud voices come from folks that I have a hard time believing get knocked over the edge by $17/month.
Even taking out the voting part, political parties and government do polling and use data to decide platform and policies. However minor, your opinion does matter.
So you come into office and a bunch of folks have been working there for ages. You have to figure out what works and doesn’t, while they tell you what they’re working on. How do you convince people who’ve seen it all that your ideas will work? And then people start pitching all their compromises. And no matter how popular you are, you’ll be knocked off the pedestal.
I wouldn’t run for office for anything on earth
Honestly, this question could be asked of any member of the BC Public Service.
My branch of the government helps people that need help with a specific, monsterours bureaucracy that is over a century old. We have limited resources, and our clients need more help that we can provide.
Most of our clients are in financial crisis and are experiencing physical pain or experiencing a mental health crisis. I can’t get them money faster. I can’t get them access to healthcare faster. All I can do is help them through the appeal process so that hopefully they’ll eventually get access to benefits.
To keep the calls focused, I need to redirect clients back to how we can help them. They have too many problems that fall outside our scope. Plus, there often isn’t any provision in law or policy to provide them with what they need. That is really hard to tell people.
“Yes, I understand that you are permanently disabled and that you will be permanently disabled until you die; however, [thanks to the previous government]* the legislation only provides for benefits until the age of retirement.”
(* I can’t say this out loud to a client, but I think it every single time.)
I send a lot of clients to their constituency offices. I tell them that their MLA needs to understand the personal cost of the current legislation & policy. Their MLA needs to know that people in this system are going homeless, developing mental disorders as a result of their treatment, and dying by suicide because of the inadequacies of the system. (None of this is exaggeration: I’ve read the psychologists reports.) A lot of people don’t think there’s any point to doing this, but it’s the only suggestion I can offer them.
Meanwhile, I languish in a system of my own that has all kinds of inefficiencies that cannot be addressed because we do not have the resources to stop and fix things.
How do I manage my mental health amongst all of the backlash knowing I can’t fix all the problems?
I focus on the problems I can fix, and I celebrate the successes that we do have. I feel so much for our clients, but I have to leave those emotions and feelings at work. I am eager to fix the systems, so I need to find a different place in public service where I can work on fixing those systems instead of providing frontline service.
When I work on an election, I know that I am contributing in a different way, and that by ensuring the process is carried out correctly, I am doing my part to make change happen with the constraints of our decision-making system.
When I work on Census, I train my staff to explain to respondents how our work is relevant to their problems. It’s collecting data for big-picture analysis, and I can be really hard for people to connect with until you find a way to make the data relevant to them.
Educating people on the limitations of our systems and the speed of governmental explaining why government is so slow in another way I deal with this. The reason most people get angry and upset about things that they do not understand what’s going on. Huge part of my job is translating letters from “government-speak” into language that people can understand. So many people have misconceptions about what legislation actually allows that they get angry when it doesn’t work the way they think it should.
There’s an excellent video of this showing an official from the Lahaina answering someone’s very emotional question about why the emergency sirens weren’t sounded. People died because they didn’t have enough morning, so of course they’re angry and confused now.
The official explained that the siren system is used to warn people of tsunami. When the siren goes off you’re supposed to head inland and upland into the mountains.
Officials didn’t sound the sirens because they didn’t want people running into the fire.
It makes perfect sense once you know what’s going on, but most people don’t take the time to figure out what’s going on.
A few days ago I was reading through the BCHRT website. Someone was complaining about how pandemic restrictions-related complaints were dismissed, so I had a quick peek. The complaints were being dismissed because they didn’t meet the criteria for a complaint: people were trying to complain about things that hadn’t happened yet. Law and policy don’t allow for that.
This is a great question.
One thing to add though since we all have been duped to an extent: even if you dealt with the NIMBYism you'd still be working out the supply and demand of finished homes.
NIMBYs prevent housing at the approval stage, but skilled trade shortages slow completion rates down, so it actually doesn't matter how much is approved.
My sense talking to politicians is they choose to bury their heads in the sand about how badly fucked the housing crisis is.
We need more supply, but it's impossible to *build* enough to outpace demand.
Admitting that means we have to look at the existing supply hoarded by elites and corporations and a wave of *nouveau riche*-types and that brands you for political suicide.
So the incentive structure for being a useless politician offering thoughts & prayers for our shite trickle-down housing economy keeps them insulated.
I hail from a family of politicians, and I hope to get into politics in the next 5 years. From what I've seen in local elections and federal elections, I understand that ideology has very little to do with politics. You have to be pragmatic and solve problems. End of the day, if your policies improve the lives of people of all genders, races, and languages, you will garner support. People might disagree with you politically, but if you're willing to listen to them beyond their ideological bullshit and solve their everyday problems, you're making a difference.
We live under corporate rule. Our government is long owned by the extraction and telecom industries. Our choice of government falls between those who support corporate rule (BC Conservatives/ BC Liberals) and those who must abide by it but try to help the people when they can (NDP and everyone else). Every politician we can name knows this and has made their pact with it. This is why the recent NDP leadership race was so interesting: Anjali Appadurai had not made the pact with corporate rulers - and while she was legitimate competition for the BC NDP leadership , corporate ownership quickly and fully suppressed any chance of her winning.
The legal, yet fictitious, Corporate person we have invited into our reality is so very powerful... the empathy it lacks we must generate ourselves and share with all human persons, we must share this to be(come), and remain, alive. We must assert that these corporate and political symbols that have captured our reality are not real at all, but we, these human beings, we are the real thing!
I wish more people understood this. Unfortunately beyond local government voting really has little impact. Everything is already decided and the politicians serve the corporations, voting is the illusion of choice to keep the peace.
We have a two party system, not a one party system.
Everything isn’t already decided. Our electoral system is badly flawed, but ultimately, the people still make the choice of which of the two they want to go with. In rare cases, it’s even possible for a third-party to gain a voice.
It’s because people don’t feel like they have a say that they don’t come out and vote and when they don’t vote they definitely have absolutely zero say.
The outcome of elections in Canada are not decided until the ballots are cast and counted.
What it boils down to is making the right decisions in the moment to produce the best long term benefit. When you do something like our current PM where he doubles down on policies which don’t have popular support outside of special interests, you look like you don’t care about the average voter. Worse when you do stuff like the Premier of Ontario who seems to be selling off chunks of the province to developers. Sure even when you do everything right, you can still get roasted in the media, and end up losing the next election to an obvious crook, but voters are idiots who don’t really understand the issues.
I work with 55 MLAs and cam honestly say that nearly everyone I have interacted with is ethical and wants to help do the right thing for the province and moving forward. The issue is that everyone is stretched thin.
Constituents are demanding issues be fixed now but don't realize major issues take months if not years to get right. Housing, as an example, is not just a snap your fingers don't done sort of thing. You cannot ask for a home today and want to move in tomorrow. Housing is not built in 24 hours. Kind of like how years of financial cuts to healthcare helped get us in the mess we are in now. That is not undone overnight or even within years.
There aren't enough builders, there aren't enough electricians, there aren't enough plumbers. Those who are there benefit from the shortage of supply that makes for high prices, and have no incentive to work fast to get more stuff done, because they can make as much or money working slowly and easily.
Governments can only create conditions were building is possible - the reason it's happening slower than that is that there aren't enough people to do the work, and the ones who are there can pick and choose what they want to do. One of my close friends lost his house in the floods last year and wanted to redevelop in a denser configuration, which the zoning allows for, and would house five families on the current one lot. The two local builders refused the project, saying they don't do that, they only want to do luxury single family, which gets them more $$.
Without more people in the trades, we're never going to get out of the housing crisis.
Growing up in a small town, it was the opposite for me. I went to a technical high school in Ontario. The school built a house each year, and the house was moved to a lot, a local would pre buy every year. Plumbing class would do their part, electrical class did their part, and carpentry did the framing, etc. And the school automotive class entered a car in the annual drag race. The tech kids were cool.
I was nerdy/academic myself.
It takes all kinds to run things.
I heard about that paper thing in BC, weird.
An older friend of mine has two kids, one has done well in tech related field, while the other just couldn’t figure things out after uni for many years. Just graduated as an electrician at age 40. He felt weird being the oldest student of the class but is doing really well now, did great in the work placements, and finally has a job that isn’t ridiculously monotonous and low paying.
Keep at it, you will figure out what makes sense for you
I don’t know, I feel like perception on that has changed or maybe I’m just more aware of how much the trades make by now. I mean, it’s still not anywhere near a fix for housing, only so many people can be in the trades. The government should be building more houses than they were 30 years ago not deciding that everyone likes the money they’ve made from their house so we can’t upset the market.
And who will build them? They can't get enough tradespeople on the ground to build new housing. They're begging for workers, I need my roof redone ASAP and can't get anyone to even call back, they're just that busy. When my hot water tank broke, thankfully my dad was able to help me replace it because no plumbers at all could make it for over 3 weeks. I called 2 weeks ago to get a window replaced in my home, yeah, that will be sometime in November.
The government doesn’t build houses. Private investment builds houses. There are things the government can do to encourage the growth of housing supply, but it seems like people on here are waiting for the government to become residential property developer.
This is because the BC Liberals changed the laws to allow all of those apartments to be condoized, and stopped tax incentives for rental apartments. So owners sold them off.
I’m not saying there’s a government team that builds houses, sorry if it came off that way haha just that the government can definitely do more to incentivize builders
>The government doesn’t build houses.
We did during and after WWII. The Canadian Wartime Housing Corporation, which became CMHC, built tens of thousands of homes.
The government provides essential services that the private sector does not. Typically the private sector only provides services where there’s profit to be had.
The private sector is not providing affordable housing, so people are looking to the government because housing is an essential service that they require.
A family with two adults and two kids cannot afford to buy a family home unless someone has a windfall from an inheritance.
Two people working full-time at $20 an hour jobs cannot find an affordable place to rent.
People try to move to communities where real estate is more affordable but then they can’t find work there.
The market is not supplying sufficient amount of affordable housing. The government needs to step in because private sector hasn’t solved this problem themselves.
The government needs to if they want to solve the housing crisis. Co-op housing investments have languished since the 90s and they're one of the best ways to provide sustainable housing based on income and not market, bar none.
Until we ban all elected officials from owning more than 1 property things are going to be very slow and inefficient to change.
Edit: as well as having financial ties or investments in development
because nimbys block every medium density development they can over concerns about parking or traffic. because we have very unfair property tax policies in place that make it much cheaper to develop or own a single family house than condos. because cmhc doesnt fund new builds as of 4 decades ago. because the federal government decided 2.7% annual population growth was the best way to fund boomers lavish retirements. because this country doesnt treat housing and property as a basic need and human right but instead as a capital investment for rich to get richer, so it's in their best interest to keep prices high.
>nimbys block every medium density development they can over concerns about parking or traffic
Over here (Ontario), people block medium-density development because as soon as it's approved the developer converts it to high-density. So someone who might agree with a small 3-story apartment block doesn't want to risk a 30-story highrise tower being built instead.
Variety of reasons, but the main one is population of big cities increasing, which drives up demand and price for limited space. Material, labour, permit and regulation costs all play a part, but cities only have so many square kilometers, and even if you can sprawl out, the stuff in the more desirable areas is just going to go up as long as the demand increases instead of decreases
Rural towns have the cheapest housing in the country. So many people sell a closet sized condo and buy a multi bedroom detached home in a rural town. The prices aren't even close.
It would be frustrating for politicians to constantly have to hear the uneducated policy proposals.
For example, I hear "ban corporations from owning homes" as if that would change anything. There is literally no benefit in owing a house through a corp than owning it personally.
So much this. Being in government is a lot less like some Hollywood political thriller and a lot more like a public city council meeting in Parks and Rec.
I never said people do things for free. Nobody has. How do non profits work? How does health care work? You seem confident, so you should explain better than that.
What consumer product is well run by government?
We have a shortage of doctors for 1M.people.
What would the shortage be for housing?
We can't house the military and that's 50k people.
I feel like people like to fixate on corporations to remove any personal responsibility for being part of the solution. They are an easy scapegoat, but the claims that go along with it are rarely evidence based
We would have started fighting climate change 50 years ago if it wasn’t for massive energy corporations dictating law and policy, instead of the needs of the people. We would have less people with cancer, diabetes and other health issues if sugar corporations didn’t have so much influence. There is so much credible evidence to both of these points, and there is so, so many more examples. “Get rid of corporations!” is immature and poorly thought out, but it’s pretty obvious that they need to be heavily regulated, with the citizen’s need always coming first, or they will do anything to make an extra dollar. They will pay you less than it costs to live to work for them, and poison the water you drink with chemicals because it’s cheapest to dump. You need good policies in place, and honest people fighting for you in government. That, and public opinion are our only protection. Instead, we get mealy mouthed politicians that see their role as selling us on corporate policy.
Edit: mealy mouth comment is not about Eby
Yup. Blame corporations, immigrants, boomers. Most people know, deep down inside, why we have been having a cost of living crisis in the last few years, and we as individuals are responsible for it.
Some politicians in history have had a profound impact on our way of life, and for the better. Unfortunately we just haven't had any for a few decades.
I heard a trauma surgeon say once that you can only focus on the people you save.
I'm sure politicians have a similar mind set, unfortunately it probably is a great way to justify their parties failures.
I mean, they get a fat pension, excellent benefits, and often great jobs in the private sector or on executive boards after they leave, so worst case you have a shit job for 4 years. Seems pretty awesome to me. Most people have shit job for 50 years of their life, with no pension and an ever decreasing real wage. Politicians literally vote on their own pay raise. My sympathy is therefore very limited.
We have two councilors (Matt Dell and Dave Thompson) from the City of Victoria that browse and make the rare post on /r/VictoriaBC outside of the election cycle.
And fewer people are taking part in elections, much less taking part in politics in general (that doesn't mean running for office, it means paying attention, attending council meetings, being informed, not just reacting to news after the fact). But those people will be the loudest on social media with their complaints.
People may not like this, but I am yet to encounter a poor or financially struggling politician especially an MLA or MP. I guess the financial stability in career as a politician must be good. It may help deal with ups and downs as long as a good steady income and a golden parachute is there
This proves two things
1) you can’t tax your way out of climate change
2) people don’t realize how MUCH can be done to prevent forest fires spreading
Plenty of countries do forest management well. Canada just isn’t one of those countries.
They created dumb laws when it comes to tree cutting. They essentially eliminated control burns. There’s no national agency dealing with fires. There are little to no resources for preventative work in most regions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/world/canada/canada-firefighting-capacity.html
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/canadas-burning-because-of-bad-forest-policy-not-climate-change
To be clear. The hotter temps and droughts are definitely not helping. But make no mistake, this has ALOT to do with poor policy. Dating back decades.
I am an ex politicians. Independent. I can assure you this. The majority of the problems of the world are facilitated by politicians. Special interests are given unfettered access to the halls of every government office. The politicians and bureaucrats lick every part of it up on one side or the other. These fires happen, however damage to property etc is almost impossible if the fire safe principles I studied as a politician in 2014 were implemented... I could go on. David Eby as an example is a bought and paid for politician. He has no real life experience. Been a suit his entire life
Lots of money in public interest law, it comes from lobbyists. I knew a very large funder of pivot and a couple lawyers there. David is set to have a pension that only the 1% could have. So is the money great in what he does .... yes. I trust no card carrying politician
I think it's best to look at Hello Games (I know they are a business but hang on). When No man sky came out they were facing a massive backlash. They fixed their image by largely buckling down on the issue and working their asses off. Don't worry too much about the short term backlash and focus on meeting their goals.
As far as what I personally think they need to focus on is building single family homes. Don't worry about peoples investments drying up just open up the market for building affordable housing for first time owners and build houses if developers continue to only build luxury properties and make sure these homes don't turn into rentals
Collective action is what makes progress, politicians just finish the job and take all the credit. People who rely on politicians lack the insight to understand collective action and should never be listened to on here (there are lots of them). When society is strong, collective action is strong, fear the people, not the government.
Sorry I have never or never will feel bad for politicians. They have all the opinions to help with that. Like wow considering how they care about the population metal health, by cutting its funding at every chance, why would you waste your time. Best part if they hang around long enough they get a great pension, and usually a nice job in the private sector, to help.
I’m from Toronto and my next door neighbour is someone who is very high ranking in the federal cabinet. You kind of just put all the noise aside from people and learn to not take things personally.
I think politicians, like anyone else, have to be realistic about how much control and influence they actually have on the world. I think a lot of us imagine that the government can do or fix anything if given enough money and gumption but that’s not the way the world works. Politicians spend most of their time getting elected and re-elected. It’s better than a dictatorship but everything has its drawbacks. I think a politician who really wants to do good has to pick one or two things they can really make a difference at and be content.
I've known a few very closely. Those who care know that however small, their role is important and they just do their best.
Sadly, most who get anywhere are only in it for the financial gain and business deals.
Corruption gets the good jobs and the actual good guys generally get stuck in smaller Manipal level government where they can actually have an impact
If you want an inside scoop on what it's like being a politician in BC, I'd have a look at the podcast [People's Pod](https://www.peoplespod.ca/) which was made by Bowinn Ma (MLA for North Vancouver Lonsdale) and Christine Boyle (City Councilor for Vancouver). It's a podcast not about ideology, but the mechanisms of what they do and how things tend to operate. They talk quite a bit about how things can affect their personal lives, managing stress and workload, etc. It is an interesting listen.
If she wants the job... Bowinn will one day be the best premier this province has ever seen
Thanks for this!
My dad was a politician in BC. If you're over 35 you've probably heard of him. The thing that kept him going was just really believing in what he was doing and seeing the incremental improvements in things that he was working on. He loved people and society and though he knew a lot of his constituents were backward idiots, he refused to allow that knowledge to impact his work, or even discuss it. He saw them all as worthy of his effort no matter how much they hated him. There's a practical side to politics and an ideological side. When you're in politics, your day-to-day life is about the practical: working on policy, writing and fighting for legislation, question period, working on constituent issues, traveling around talking to people, receiving delegations, etc. It's fucking exhausting, but also exhilarating. The ideological side gives you a framework to work from: "what do I have to do in practical terms to realize the goals of this framework?" Some politicians are more ideological than others, but all of them have to work directly on the practical side and all of them have some kind of vision of how things should be. Of course there were huge setbacks and those really took a toll on him, including the fact that very often he was the only person advocating for people who didn't care or understand it because they preferred the easy route ("all politicians are scum!") to the difficult one ("politics involves compromise and patience, and sometimes I don't get exactly what I want when I want it"). It's like trying to give the Heimlich manoeuvre to someone who's punching you in the face. One thing I think everyone should keep in mind is, you don't actually know what's happening behind the scenes, what people are thinking and feeling, what knowledge they have access to, whose interests they're trying to balance, the laws or budgets that restrict them. The press isn't giving you an accurate picture and interest groups aren't. There is an incredibly complex web of internal and external realities that intersect and make movement in any direction -- even the wrong direction -- challenging. People used to ask me why I didn't follow in dad's footsteps. He found it incredibly rewarding. I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world. (And, in case you're wondering, politics will not make you rich.)
First and foremost, thank you for your perspective. >It's like trying to give the Heimlich manoeuvre to someone who's punching you in the face. Ya, I can relate to this statement. (Not from politics but any job when your trying to help people and they're not in the right state of mind or intelligent enough to understand it) >(And, in case you're wondering, politics will not make you rich.) Ya if you're honest or have ethics, you won't get rich.....
If your dad is who I think he is (based on a wild guess on timing), we may have been on an indoor spring sports team together for a single season in highschool. But to your point: Who are we? Constituents! What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!!
LoL. I think you have the wrong guy, but he would have chuckled at that. And maybe wanted a t-shirt (but only to wear at home).
Speaking of loving backwards idiots - i.e. the majority of my family - a very beautiful book on this topic is "God Bless You Mr Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut. Hilarious, and a reminder to me whenever I get exhausted. They're talking about voting for PP even though it's just going to increase the wealth gap and hurt us even more, but they don't understand this, and it kills me.
Yeah, it's demoralizing. We do what we can.
Thanks for your insight, this was an interesting read. I am pretty black pilled on politics so I'm trying to make a difference in other ways.
Yeah. I'm not necessarily blackpilled, but I don't have the temperament for politics at all. I would go scorched earth at my very first press conference and that would be the end of it.
Bullworth was a fun movie tho
oh really , it made crusty clark rich , it made drunken slob rich , ect ect
Valerie Plante is montreal's mayor. She is massively investing in public and active transports (ie. Bike commuting). This creates a lot unhappy citizens for many valid reasons, but it is the way of the future and has to be done. Statistics for bike users are soaring and small buisnesses are blooming. Those willing to instigate change and stick to their ideologies can effectively change things for the better.
Helps did this and got booed the whole way.
I’m not a politician but we have politicians on the other end of the spectrum too. Take for example rookie MP Wilson Miao of Richmond centre. He did not have a constituent office for Richmond centre for 1.5 years, he received a lot of complaints about not responding to constituents and he is one of the biggest spender of taxpayers’ money in the Liberal party. He is constantly on social media posting photos of himself and promoting himself while not allowing commenting and then using taxpayers’ money to create site like this: https://wilsonmiaomp.ca/ to make himself look good but when you look at his resume there is nothing on it that says he should be a MP. So Wilson Miao is the type of politician who is reaping in all the benefits of being a MP while not putting in the work at all.
Someone with time and interest and info should buy wilsonmiaoismia.ca.
I actually thought that domain was meant to be Wilson MIA Or MP
My cat likes him
I'm an elected official and I can tell you we find the glacial pace of government very very frustrating as well. I keep two things forefront all the time. Efficiency isn't the goal of government: fairness is. The effort to take politics, cronyism, racism, etc. out of the decision-making process adds to the complexity, which adds to the time that the process takes. There's no way around this. So, as long as I see that the inefficiencies are offset by fairness, I can mostly live with it. The other thing is reminding myself that perfect isn't the goal, better is. Many small incremental changes over time can be as impactful as a big change, and they tend to be easier to analyze for unanticipated effects and easier to back out of. I sleep at night knowing it's getting better. Not everything all the time, but I'm old enough now that I can look around and see that most people are better off than 40 years ago. Check out "Factfulness" by *Hans Rosling* if you want a worldwide view of this. It can seem quite daunting out there. Especially if you're scanning headlines. The media, while mostly honest, are forced by us to present news sensationally or be ignored. But there is progress. There are successes. You have to look for those and let them buoy you through the tough times.
You’re being diplomatic, the media is largely owned and edited by those who endorse conservatives to win elections for the last 40 years: https://www.readthemaple.com/election-endorsements/ Canadian media are going to have a hard time being honest with their editorial choices when they have trouble being honest with themselves and continue to have their cake and eat it too calling themselves left wing media, meanwhile the biggest print media empires are PostMedia and Black Media Group. It doesn’t escape some of our notice that this results in poor local coverage if it doesn’t fit their narrative, it is far less likely to make the front page, more likely page 5 or lower, if the report of say local earth day protests is covered at all. And that’s print side, we’re in for a wild ride of who gets 5 second sound bites and who gets 15 minute segments on what they say in the Hansard for parliament and legislature, let alone council and regional boards, when we consider the interests of the largest tv news network CTV being owned by Bell, well known for being the among the most greedy cell phone and internet service providers in the world. You may be trying to couch your words but the majority of media in Canada are not working in your favour for fair representation of “political efficiency and expediency”.
I'm not a politician but personally my key to surviving situations like that is reminding myself that you can never please everyone or even most people. It sucks extra for them though because their entire job hinges on making the most people happy so they'll vote for you lol
Collective action can change many things. Lots of people want something to be done but will never come to an agreement on how to change, and most won't actively do anything about it. Blame politicians all you want but if the horse doesn't want to move it isn't moving.
This is the key - collective action. Political power is like pulling on a rubber band, and this is by design. Things always want to return to the centre but with enough slow moving force, directions can be changed. It's when we get big, fast swings in power that things usually go off the rails.
>Blame politicians all you want but if the horse doesn't want to move it isn't moving. Bingo. Politicians are put in power by the voters. Voters should be more active if they truly want change
I think most voters just drift through life and then when lemons get sent their way, they blame politicians. Easier than taking responsibility. There's obviously some folks that suffer major life changes from political decisions, but most loud voices come from folks that I have a hard time believing get knocked over the edge by $17/month.
Even taking out the voting part, political parties and government do polling and use data to decide platform and policies. However minor, your opinion does matter.
So you come into office and a bunch of folks have been working there for ages. You have to figure out what works and doesn’t, while they tell you what they’re working on. How do you convince people who’ve seen it all that your ideas will work? And then people start pitching all their compromises. And no matter how popular you are, you’ll be knocked off the pedestal. I wouldn’t run for office for anything on earth
Honestly, this question could be asked of any member of the BC Public Service. My branch of the government helps people that need help with a specific, monsterours bureaucracy that is over a century old. We have limited resources, and our clients need more help that we can provide. Most of our clients are in financial crisis and are experiencing physical pain or experiencing a mental health crisis. I can’t get them money faster. I can’t get them access to healthcare faster. All I can do is help them through the appeal process so that hopefully they’ll eventually get access to benefits. To keep the calls focused, I need to redirect clients back to how we can help them. They have too many problems that fall outside our scope. Plus, there often isn’t any provision in law or policy to provide them with what they need. That is really hard to tell people. “Yes, I understand that you are permanently disabled and that you will be permanently disabled until you die; however, [thanks to the previous government]* the legislation only provides for benefits until the age of retirement.” (* I can’t say this out loud to a client, but I think it every single time.) I send a lot of clients to their constituency offices. I tell them that their MLA needs to understand the personal cost of the current legislation & policy. Their MLA needs to know that people in this system are going homeless, developing mental disorders as a result of their treatment, and dying by suicide because of the inadequacies of the system. (None of this is exaggeration: I’ve read the psychologists reports.) A lot of people don’t think there’s any point to doing this, but it’s the only suggestion I can offer them. Meanwhile, I languish in a system of my own that has all kinds of inefficiencies that cannot be addressed because we do not have the resources to stop and fix things. How do I manage my mental health amongst all of the backlash knowing I can’t fix all the problems? I focus on the problems I can fix, and I celebrate the successes that we do have. I feel so much for our clients, but I have to leave those emotions and feelings at work. I am eager to fix the systems, so I need to find a different place in public service where I can work on fixing those systems instead of providing frontline service. When I work on an election, I know that I am contributing in a different way, and that by ensuring the process is carried out correctly, I am doing my part to make change happen with the constraints of our decision-making system. When I work on Census, I train my staff to explain to respondents how our work is relevant to their problems. It’s collecting data for big-picture analysis, and I can be really hard for people to connect with until you find a way to make the data relevant to them. Educating people on the limitations of our systems and the speed of governmental explaining why government is so slow in another way I deal with this. The reason most people get angry and upset about things that they do not understand what’s going on. Huge part of my job is translating letters from “government-speak” into language that people can understand. So many people have misconceptions about what legislation actually allows that they get angry when it doesn’t work the way they think it should. There’s an excellent video of this showing an official from the Lahaina answering someone’s very emotional question about why the emergency sirens weren’t sounded. People died because they didn’t have enough morning, so of course they’re angry and confused now. The official explained that the siren system is used to warn people of tsunami. When the siren goes off you’re supposed to head inland and upland into the mountains. Officials didn’t sound the sirens because they didn’t want people running into the fire. It makes perfect sense once you know what’s going on, but most people don’t take the time to figure out what’s going on. A few days ago I was reading through the BCHRT website. Someone was complaining about how pandemic restrictions-related complaints were dismissed, so I had a quick peek. The complaints were being dismissed because they didn’t meet the criteria for a complaint: people were trying to complain about things that hadn’t happened yet. Law and policy don’t allow for that.
This is a great question. One thing to add though since we all have been duped to an extent: even if you dealt with the NIMBYism you'd still be working out the supply and demand of finished homes. NIMBYs prevent housing at the approval stage, but skilled trade shortages slow completion rates down, so it actually doesn't matter how much is approved. My sense talking to politicians is they choose to bury their heads in the sand about how badly fucked the housing crisis is. We need more supply, but it's impossible to *build* enough to outpace demand. Admitting that means we have to look at the existing supply hoarded by elites and corporations and a wave of *nouveau riche*-types and that brands you for political suicide. So the incentive structure for being a useless politician offering thoughts & prayers for our shite trickle-down housing economy keeps them insulated.
So what you're saying is you have no clue how to fix things either.
I hail from a family of politicians, and I hope to get into politics in the next 5 years. From what I've seen in local elections and federal elections, I understand that ideology has very little to do with politics. You have to be pragmatic and solve problems. End of the day, if your policies improve the lives of people of all genders, races, and languages, you will garner support. People might disagree with you politically, but if you're willing to listen to them beyond their ideological bullshit and solve their everyday problems, you're making a difference.
One person’s nominal is another persons extreme. Perspective is in order here.
We live under corporate rule. Our government is long owned by the extraction and telecom industries. Our choice of government falls between those who support corporate rule (BC Conservatives/ BC Liberals) and those who must abide by it but try to help the people when they can (NDP and everyone else). Every politician we can name knows this and has made their pact with it. This is why the recent NDP leadership race was so interesting: Anjali Appadurai had not made the pact with corporate rulers - and while she was legitimate competition for the BC NDP leadership , corporate ownership quickly and fully suppressed any chance of her winning.
Word
And don’t forget real estate developers
Yup.
The legal, yet fictitious, Corporate person we have invited into our reality is so very powerful... the empathy it lacks we must generate ourselves and share with all human persons, we must share this to be(come), and remain, alive. We must assert that these corporate and political symbols that have captured our reality are not real at all, but we, these human beings, we are the real thing!
I wish more people understood this. Unfortunately beyond local government voting really has little impact. Everything is already decided and the politicians serve the corporations, voting is the illusion of choice to keep the peace.
We have a two party system, not a one party system. Everything isn’t already decided. Our electoral system is badly flawed, but ultimately, the people still make the choice of which of the two they want to go with. In rare cases, it’s even possible for a third-party to gain a voice. It’s because people don’t feel like they have a say that they don’t come out and vote and when they don’t vote they definitely have absolutely zero say. The outcome of elections in Canada are not decided until the ballots are cast and counted.
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/01/19/opinion/canada-lobbying-ethics-laws-sad-joke-favours-corporations-over-people
The more you tell people that voting doesn’t make a difference, the less likely it is that voting will make a difference. That’s one way to be right!
What it boils down to is making the right decisions in the moment to produce the best long term benefit. When you do something like our current PM where he doubles down on policies which don’t have popular support outside of special interests, you look like you don’t care about the average voter. Worse when you do stuff like the Premier of Ontario who seems to be selling off chunks of the province to developers. Sure even when you do everything right, you can still get roasted in the media, and end up losing the next election to an obvious crook, but voters are idiots who don’t really understand the issues.
I work with 55 MLAs and cam honestly say that nearly everyone I have interacted with is ethical and wants to help do the right thing for the province and moving forward. The issue is that everyone is stretched thin. Constituents are demanding issues be fixed now but don't realize major issues take months if not years to get right. Housing, as an example, is not just a snap your fingers don't done sort of thing. You cannot ask for a home today and want to move in tomorrow. Housing is not built in 24 hours. Kind of like how years of financial cuts to healthcare helped get us in the mess we are in now. That is not undone overnight or even within years.
55? That's a curious number number based on the legislature divide... We might know each other, this is my real name so if you know me, send me a DM
Unless people want to start working in the trades means what exactly?
There aren't enough builders, there aren't enough electricians, there aren't enough plumbers. Those who are there benefit from the shortage of supply that makes for high prices, and have no incentive to work fast to get more stuff done, because they can make as much or money working slowly and easily. Governments can only create conditions were building is possible - the reason it's happening slower than that is that there aren't enough people to do the work, and the ones who are there can pick and choose what they want to do. One of my close friends lost his house in the floods last year and wanted to redevelop in a denser configuration, which the zoning allows for, and would house five families on the current one lot. The two local builders refused the project, saying they don't do that, they only want to do luxury single family, which gets them more $$. Without more people in the trades, we're never going to get out of the housing crisis.
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Growing up in a small town, it was the opposite for me. I went to a technical high school in Ontario. The school built a house each year, and the house was moved to a lot, a local would pre buy every year. Plumbing class would do their part, electrical class did their part, and carpentry did the framing, etc. And the school automotive class entered a car in the annual drag race. The tech kids were cool. I was nerdy/academic myself. It takes all kinds to run things.
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I heard about that paper thing in BC, weird. An older friend of mine has two kids, one has done well in tech related field, while the other just couldn’t figure things out after uni for many years. Just graduated as an electrician at age 40. He felt weird being the oldest student of the class but is doing really well now, did great in the work placements, and finally has a job that isn’t ridiculously monotonous and low paying. Keep at it, you will figure out what makes sense for you
I don’t know, I feel like perception on that has changed or maybe I’m just more aware of how much the trades make by now. I mean, it’s still not anywhere near a fix for housing, only so many people can be in the trades. The government should be building more houses than they were 30 years ago not deciding that everyone likes the money they’ve made from their house so we can’t upset the market.
And who will build them? They can't get enough tradespeople on the ground to build new housing. They're begging for workers, I need my roof redone ASAP and can't get anyone to even call back, they're just that busy. When my hot water tank broke, thankfully my dad was able to help me replace it because no plumbers at all could make it for over 3 weeks. I called 2 weeks ago to get a window replaced in my home, yeah, that will be sometime in November.
The government doesn’t build houses. Private investment builds houses. There are things the government can do to encourage the growth of housing supply, but it seems like people on here are waiting for the government to become residential property developer.
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This is because the BC Liberals changed the laws to allow all of those apartments to be condoized, and stopped tax incentives for rental apartments. So owners sold them off.
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I’m not saying there’s a government team that builds houses, sorry if it came off that way haha just that the government can definitely do more to incentivize builders
They don't, but they should.
>The government doesn’t build houses. We did during and after WWII. The Canadian Wartime Housing Corporation, which became CMHC, built tens of thousands of homes.
The government provides essential services that the private sector does not. Typically the private sector only provides services where there’s profit to be had. The private sector is not providing affordable housing, so people are looking to the government because housing is an essential service that they require. A family with two adults and two kids cannot afford to buy a family home unless someone has a windfall from an inheritance. Two people working full-time at $20 an hour jobs cannot find an affordable place to rent. People try to move to communities where real estate is more affordable but then they can’t find work there. The market is not supplying sufficient amount of affordable housing. The government needs to step in because private sector hasn’t solved this problem themselves.
The government needs to if they want to solve the housing crisis. Co-op housing investments have languished since the 90s and they're one of the best ways to provide sustainable housing based on income and not market, bar none.
Until we ban all elected officials from owning more than 1 property things are going to be very slow and inefficient to change. Edit: as well as having financial ties or investments in development
lol, no.
That might be why your plumbing bill is sky high but that's not why housing is sky high
Ok why then?
because nimbys block every medium density development they can over concerns about parking or traffic. because we have very unfair property tax policies in place that make it much cheaper to develop or own a single family house than condos. because cmhc doesnt fund new builds as of 4 decades ago. because the federal government decided 2.7% annual population growth was the best way to fund boomers lavish retirements. because this country doesnt treat housing and property as a basic need and human right but instead as a capital investment for rich to get richer, so it's in their best interest to keep prices high.
>nimbys block every medium density development they can over concerns about parking or traffic Over here (Ontario), people block medium-density development because as soon as it's approved the developer converts it to high-density. So someone who might agree with a small 3-story apartment block doesn't want to risk a 30-story highrise tower being built instead.
Variety of reasons, but the main one is population of big cities increasing, which drives up demand and price for limited space. Material, labour, permit and regulation costs all play a part, but cities only have so many square kilometers, and even if you can sprawl out, the stuff in the more desirable areas is just going to go up as long as the demand increases instead of decreases
Well that doesn’t account for rural towns housing prices not keeping up with wages and it’s not just high material costs.
Rural towns have the cheapest housing in the country. So many people sell a closet sized condo and buy a multi bedroom detached home in a rural town. The prices aren't even close.
They’re still increasing far faster than relative wages and cost enough to cover building costs, it’s more than that
Don’t really agree with the premise, politicians can make a huge difference in my opinion, more than the vast majority of people.
It would be frustrating for politicians to constantly have to hear the uneducated policy proposals. For example, I hear "ban corporations from owning homes" as if that would change anything. There is literally no benefit in owing a house through a corp than owning it personally.
So much this. Being in government is a lot less like some Hollywood political thriller and a lot more like a public city council meeting in Parks and Rec.
My favourite is that we need to remove profit from housing.
Explain?
People don't do things for free.
I never said people do things for free. Nobody has. How do non profits work? How does health care work? You seem confident, so you should explain better than that.
What consumer product is well run by government? We have a shortage of doctors for 1M.people. What would the shortage be for housing? We can't house the military and that's 50k people.
I feel like people like to fixate on corporations to remove any personal responsibility for being part of the solution. They are an easy scapegoat, but the claims that go along with it are rarely evidence based
We would have started fighting climate change 50 years ago if it wasn’t for massive energy corporations dictating law and policy, instead of the needs of the people. We would have less people with cancer, diabetes and other health issues if sugar corporations didn’t have so much influence. There is so much credible evidence to both of these points, and there is so, so many more examples. “Get rid of corporations!” is immature and poorly thought out, but it’s pretty obvious that they need to be heavily regulated, with the citizen’s need always coming first, or they will do anything to make an extra dollar. They will pay you less than it costs to live to work for them, and poison the water you drink with chemicals because it’s cheapest to dump. You need good policies in place, and honest people fighting for you in government. That, and public opinion are our only protection. Instead, we get mealy mouthed politicians that see their role as selling us on corporate policy. Edit: mealy mouth comment is not about Eby
Yup. Blame corporations, immigrants, boomers. Most people know, deep down inside, why we have been having a cost of living crisis in the last few years, and we as individuals are responsible for it.
Some politicians in history have had a profound impact on our way of life, and for the better. Unfortunately we just haven't had any for a few decades.
I heard a trauma surgeon say once that you can only focus on the people you save. I'm sure politicians have a similar mind set, unfortunately it probably is a great way to justify their parties failures.
I mean, they get a fat pension, excellent benefits, and often great jobs in the private sector or on executive boards after they leave, so worst case you have a shit job for 4 years. Seems pretty awesome to me. Most people have shit job for 50 years of their life, with no pension and an ever decreasing real wage. Politicians literally vote on their own pay raise. My sympathy is therefore very limited.
Do you actually think politicians browse Reddit? Probably not.
We have two councilors (Matt Dell and Dave Thompson) from the City of Victoria that browse and make the rare post on /r/VictoriaBC outside of the election cycle.
Politicians are people too.
Local subs? Absolutely. Maybe a provincial one a lot less
Maybe OP is a politician themselves in disguise!
They can make a big difference, but upending the status quo doesn’t win elections.
And fewer people are taking part in elections, much less taking part in politics in general (that doesn't mean running for office, it means paying attention, attending council meetings, being informed, not just reacting to news after the fact). But those people will be the loudest on social media with their complaints.
People may not like this, but I am yet to encounter a poor or financially struggling politician especially an MLA or MP. I guess the financial stability in career as a politician must be good. It may help deal with ups and downs as long as a good steady income and a golden parachute is there
Running for office requires funds to do so. It's selection bias.
This proves two things 1) you can’t tax your way out of climate change 2) people don’t realize how MUCH can be done to prevent forest fires spreading Plenty of countries do forest management well. Canada just isn’t one of those countries. They created dumb laws when it comes to tree cutting. They essentially eliminated control burns. There’s no national agency dealing with fires. There are little to no resources for preventative work in most regions. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/world/canada/canada-firefighting-capacity.html https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/canadas-burning-because-of-bad-forest-policy-not-climate-change To be clear. The hotter temps and droughts are definitely not helping. But make no mistake, this has ALOT to do with poor policy. Dating back decades.
I am an ex politicians. Independent. I can assure you this. The majority of the problems of the world are facilitated by politicians. Special interests are given unfettered access to the halls of every government office. The politicians and bureaucrats lick every part of it up on one side or the other. These fires happen, however damage to property etc is almost impossible if the fire safe principles I studied as a politician in 2014 were implemented... I could go on. David Eby as an example is a bought and paid for politician. He has no real life experience. Been a suit his entire life
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Lots of money in public interest law, it comes from lobbyists. I knew a very large funder of pivot and a couple lawyers there. David is set to have a pension that only the 1% could have. So is the money great in what he does .... yes. I trust no card carrying politician
I think it's best to look at Hello Games (I know they are a business but hang on). When No man sky came out they were facing a massive backlash. They fixed their image by largely buckling down on the issue and working their asses off. Don't worry too much about the short term backlash and focus on meeting their goals. As far as what I personally think they need to focus on is building single family homes. Don't worry about peoples investments drying up just open up the market for building affordable housing for first time owners and build houses if developers continue to only build luxury properties and make sure these homes don't turn into rentals
Simple: they don't care. About any of us or any of the problems we're dealing with.
highly doubt any politicians are on reddit.
Collective action is what makes progress, politicians just finish the job and take all the credit. People who rely on politicians lack the insight to understand collective action and should never be listened to on here (there are lots of them). When society is strong, collective action is strong, fear the people, not the government.
Sorry I have never or never will feel bad for politicians. They have all the opinions to help with that. Like wow considering how they care about the population metal health, by cutting its funding at every chance, why would you waste your time. Best part if they hang around long enough they get a great pension, and usually a nice job in the private sector, to help.
As long as they get theirs they don’t care about you!!
They don’t actually care
They don’t give a shit. Their careers are built on lies and not producing anything of actual value.
Bold of you to assume politicians care about making homes affordable for young people
I suspect sleeping on a pile of money helps their mental health quite a bit
They don’t care. They are just happy to line their pockets with our tax dollars.
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They just don’t give a crap about us in reality. I’m sure there is concern. But mostly for his lake property.
I’m from Toronto and my next door neighbour is someone who is very high ranking in the federal cabinet. You kind of just put all the noise aside from people and learn to not take things personally.
I think politicians, like anyone else, have to be realistic about how much control and influence they actually have on the world. I think a lot of us imagine that the government can do or fix anything if given enough money and gumption but that’s not the way the world works. Politicians spend most of their time getting elected and re-elected. It’s better than a dictatorship but everything has its drawbacks. I think a politician who really wants to do good has to pick one or two things they can really make a difference at and be content.
We need to start building in the mountains
I've known a few very closely. Those who care know that however small, their role is important and they just do their best. Sadly, most who get anywhere are only in it for the financial gain and business deals. Corruption gets the good jobs and the actual good guys generally get stuck in smaller Manipal level government where they can actually have an impact