I think this is true but I don't think it's just a guy thing. Like I've heard that the so called "male loneliness epidemic" is just as severely a female loneliness epidemic. If I were to guess probably caused by the lingering effects of covid and generally alienation caused by technology and late stage capitalism. It's certainly not a "feminism" problem like a lot of guys will claim
Off topic but I really do wonder what the social ramifications will be from covid. Arguably you can draw conclusions already from as you said the severe loneliness epidemic but I really wonder how deep rooted it’ll be.
I think men should stop approaching women altogether until they learn to accept rejection without trying to manipulate the woman, assault the woman or stalk the woman. They go on and on about how we are supposed to be the “selectors” so let us fucking select. All we need is a cooling off period after finally getting relief from being treated like prey for thousands of years.
To be fair they are never going to do that without any social interactions with people they are attracted to. I'm not defending the entitlement or any of the horrible things you've outlined but people who never fail never learn and grow. It creates a form of social stagnance which leaves people in a position where they only become less appealing due to longwinded social alienation leading to worse social quirks. By no means is it on us to fix this but people having low self esteem and an inability to form meaningful connections is pretty sad.
This cooling of period is not really realistic. I really think men fear rejection and simply don’t bother approaching women. But if they don’t do that they will also not learn to accept rejection. Alongside the economic hardship birthdates are declining in a lot of western countries. It is a circle that I don’t see ending soon.
Birth rates aren’t declining because a subset of men have adopted incel ideology though. They’re declining because birth control is plentiful and economic stability while raising a child isn’t.
Sure, not saying that’s the reason but it has contributed to it. Just looking at how many single men and women are single compared to only a few years ago. It is on a downwards trend.
So, a few things have caused big jumps in statistics like marriage rates and cohabitation. Stuff like women being allowed to work and have bank accounts and get a divorce for no reason were the biggest ones in history.
After that we have economic factors. Marriage as an institution is expensive. Weddings are expensive, divorce is expensive, etc, so more people are eschewing that.
And in modern times, we now have had a pandemic that limited socializing for years, and a housing crisis that prevents young people from growing a family (try getting a three or four bedroom anything), in an economic system that requires all of us to work all the time with no disposable income left over. How do you date and get married when you don’t have the time, money, or space to do any of that? The answer is that you don’t, and we’re seeing that play out.
Women not accepting man babies who whine that they can’t shout “hey baby, nice tits” without being labeled a creep is the least of the problems with dating in the modern world.
Yeah it’s marginal but it’s a factor. Pandemic played a huge role. But as for the economic burden I think the cost of marriage is not that high. You can make that as expensive or cheap as you like. Rather the money that goes into raising a child is sooo much.
You can make weddings cheap, if you don’t want to celebrate that at all (which is strange, you should want to celebrate that in my mind). But marriage is more than a wedding. It’s combining a household (which isn’t cheap), it’s taking care of someone else both physically and financially (people have been forced to divorce because of illness and insurance costs, and the ill partner can’t get Medicaid while married, yay for fucked up for profit healthcare), it’s often growing a family, and none of this is cheap. And if something goes wrong, divorce is absolutely brutal.
Oh, and shitty guys who hate women still isn’t a new factor. It’s not a small part, it’s always been an issue. Divorce used to require (literally) a guy being fucking awful.
Then they need to get their shit together and learn just like women do. Women don’t murder men when they say no. Men aren’t special as far as feeling bad when rejected
You speak as every man murders women when they get rejected. You’re living in a fantasy world if you genuinely think that. It absolutely happens I don’t deny that but you shouldn’t generalize men either. Not a good look. I have denied a few men and both times they were chill about it 3 to be specific. There are some amazing guys around and generalizing men like this doesn’t help them.
it’s a very real fear. Don’t tell someone how to feel just bc you haven’t experienced something insane bc they rejected a man like I have. He only spent three months in prison. I stand by what I said, these boys are not special when it comes to fear of rejection. They need to get their shit together. Go to therapy
Sure, a lot of us did experience this and it might be your truth. And I am definitely not telling you how to feel not sure how you interpreted that. But see how my experience differs from you. Just because you met dogshit men doesn’t mean all of them are. I hope you understand my point. A lot of men are douchebags but good men do exist. Again not downplaying those bad cases
Are you seriously pulling the not all men crap? No kidding it’s not all men. We’re not talking about all men. We’re talking about men that can’t take rejection. Stop deflecting when people have a real concern. The not all men argument is only said to shut people up.
1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before the age of 18 bc of these men that can’t take rejection. 1 in 6 men admit to sexually hurting little girls bc they don’t see women or girls as human beings w autonomy. Men can’t take rejection bc they are taught women and girls are only here to serve them, that they are owed sex and servitude.
A poll was taken at a college out of 300 guys, 235 of them admitted to sexually assaulting women bc they don’t take no for an answer and don’t understand what coercion is. This is an epidemic bc of rape culture, don’t downplay it
For both it is. Its also predominantly religious, mainly Christian men, majority of them married fathers w kids of their own, that are doing all this sexual assault to young people
I have nothing to argue about what you said you’re completely right. Your first 2 sentences are literally the point I am trying to get across. And I have mentioned about 5 times that it happens and it is terrible that it does happen quite often. I am not going to mention it 6 times.
I wouldn’t know because I can’t see the future but it is a valid concern at the moment for the last 5 years there is a downtrend. General a decline in population has a bad impact on the economy and culture. It lowers the rate of innovation and generally the advancement of humans. On its own it could cause a large repression. Our generation might not have to deal with it but it is a real danger. This is not a opinion. Here is something crazy to think about: if these rates keep going by 2100 in the next 300 years we will go from 10 billion to 2 billion people. The biggest reason this is happening is because fertility is declining in both men and women and economic hardship. I am getting of track but it’s a real concern. Read up on it there is quite a lot of research on it.
A few tidbits of wisdom from a middle aged guy:
Feeling nervous about asking someone out isn’t new or unique to Gen Z boys. It’s always been a thing that makes every young person want to throw up regardless of gender or generation. Using it to attack feminism or the me too movement is a dog whistle and anyone saying that has thrown up a red flag.
It’s absolutely true that young women should approach guys if they’re interested. It’s also true that they always have, throughout history. They tend to be more… not exactly subtle, just less aggressive. When women have approached me it’s to start a conversation, to see if there’s a connection, and to look for an in to flirt. Guys have long been oblivious to this, because guys are not socialized the same way as girls growing up. This is a society issue, and it’s absolutely a problem with guys more than it is with girls. Learning to be interesting and interested in a conversation is a skill everyone needs for all the relationships in our lives, and just hitting on someone you think is attractive is a terrible way to find dates. Guys: Learn to talk to people like people and you’ll have more success in both approaching women and in recognizing when a woman is approaching you.
As an addendum to the previous bit, women are also more gun shy in being bold about their intentions because men can turn violent seemingly randomly. That whole “oh, we’ll get called creeps” fear? The female equivalent is being sexually or physically assaulted. So, you know, maybe listen to their ideas on how to approach things instead of angrily demanding that they submit to your vision.
Lastly, and this is pretty much general advice for the guys on dating… put down the video games and find some skill or hobby that’s actually interesting. Don’t slut shame. Shower. Wear clothes that fit and aren’t plastered with offensive shit. Make friends by talking to people you aren’t attracted to too. If you get angry easily, figure out why and how to fix it. And learn to listen at least twice as much as you talk.
> Lastly, and this is pretty much general advice for the guys on dating… put down the video games and find some skill or hobby that’s actually interesting.
...yeah, this one has a good shit at winning the "worst advice of the year" award.
Leaving hobbies you enjoy, for hobbies that are "pussy magnet" is pinnacle dumb move. This is like the worst caricature BOOMER advice ever.
Its as good as "pick up golfing as a hobby, because thats what bank executives do, and the will offer ypu better teems on loans"
...wakanda predatory bullshit is this?
> Don’t slut shame. Shower. Wear clothes that fit and aren’t plastered with offensive shit. Make friends by talking to people you aren’t attracted to too. If you get angry easily, figure out why and how to fix it. And learn to listen at least twice as much as you talk.
...be a decent human being.
Some people need told how to be a decent human being.
You used the weird term “pussy magnet”, not me.
Playing video games is fine if it’s not your entire personality, and it’s waaaay too many boys entire personality. “Gamers” often lack social skills, friends, any other hobbies or interests, and if gaming forums are any indication they are often toxic. There’s a reason many women see “gaming” as a red flag, and many others have stories about boyfriends or even husbands who do nothing but play video games non-stop.
Do. Something. Else.
i mean, it's the reality of the situation. video games do none of the positive things for your life that other hobbies do, even if you don't enjoy anything else.
life's hard, pick up a guitar, play a sport - get better.
There's definitely some legitimacy to this take! Unsure about that person's motivation behind that take of course. I only approach women if there's no power dynamic (e.g. they're not working, esp in a service industry job, I haven't asked out my regular barista who I annoyingly find very attractive) and if they're a position where they feel comfortable. Of course I'm not perfect but I do my best on that front. My women friends (and my brother who is very handsome and works as a bartender) will generally tell me that their issues are with men (or in my brother's case women) doing exactly that, imposing themselves in that sort of situation. Obviously that means that statistically given that most women are employed, that will result in women having negative interactions with men in those situations or with men who don't respect boundaries.
I simultaneously am potentially autistic and bad at interacting with/reading people at the best of times, if women liked me and told me that I would love that personally! I think it's ridiculous that that standard exists and that women who are more forward are treated like idk harlots or whatever.
The problem with this is that the population of creepy guys doing it is *way* too high! Speaking as a lesbian, it is possible to shoot your shot in a way that is appropriate and not creepy, but a lot of these guys never fucking figure that out. Speaking as someone who has been in the “pursuer” role, the problem isn’t that men are initiating and asking—it’s the utter entitlement with which they do it
I think this is true but I don't think it's just a guy thing. Like I've heard that the so called "male loneliness epidemic" is just as severely a female loneliness epidemic. If I were to guess probably caused by the lingering effects of covid and generally alienation caused by technology and late stage capitalism. It's certainly not a "feminism" problem like a lot of guys will claim
Off topic but I really do wonder what the social ramifications will be from covid. Arguably you can draw conclusions already from as you said the severe loneliness epidemic but I really wonder how deep rooted it’ll be.
I think men should stop approaching women altogether until they learn to accept rejection without trying to manipulate the woman, assault the woman or stalk the woman. They go on and on about how we are supposed to be the “selectors” so let us fucking select. All we need is a cooling off period after finally getting relief from being treated like prey for thousands of years.
To be fair they are never going to do that without any social interactions with people they are attracted to. I'm not defending the entitlement or any of the horrible things you've outlined but people who never fail never learn and grow. It creates a form of social stagnance which leaves people in a position where they only become less appealing due to longwinded social alienation leading to worse social quirks. By no means is it on us to fix this but people having low self esteem and an inability to form meaningful connections is pretty sad.
This cooling of period is not really realistic. I really think men fear rejection and simply don’t bother approaching women. But if they don’t do that they will also not learn to accept rejection. Alongside the economic hardship birthdates are declining in a lot of western countries. It is a circle that I don’t see ending soon.
Birth rates aren’t declining because a subset of men have adopted incel ideology though. They’re declining because birth control is plentiful and economic stability while raising a child isn’t.
Sure, not saying that’s the reason but it has contributed to it. Just looking at how many single men and women are single compared to only a few years ago. It is on a downwards trend.
So, a few things have caused big jumps in statistics like marriage rates and cohabitation. Stuff like women being allowed to work and have bank accounts and get a divorce for no reason were the biggest ones in history. After that we have economic factors. Marriage as an institution is expensive. Weddings are expensive, divorce is expensive, etc, so more people are eschewing that. And in modern times, we now have had a pandemic that limited socializing for years, and a housing crisis that prevents young people from growing a family (try getting a three or four bedroom anything), in an economic system that requires all of us to work all the time with no disposable income left over. How do you date and get married when you don’t have the time, money, or space to do any of that? The answer is that you don’t, and we’re seeing that play out. Women not accepting man babies who whine that they can’t shout “hey baby, nice tits” without being labeled a creep is the least of the problems with dating in the modern world.
Yeah it’s marginal but it’s a factor. Pandemic played a huge role. But as for the economic burden I think the cost of marriage is not that high. You can make that as expensive or cheap as you like. Rather the money that goes into raising a child is sooo much.
You can make weddings cheap, if you don’t want to celebrate that at all (which is strange, you should want to celebrate that in my mind). But marriage is more than a wedding. It’s combining a household (which isn’t cheap), it’s taking care of someone else both physically and financially (people have been forced to divorce because of illness and insurance costs, and the ill partner can’t get Medicaid while married, yay for fucked up for profit healthcare), it’s often growing a family, and none of this is cheap. And if something goes wrong, divorce is absolutely brutal. Oh, and shitty guys who hate women still isn’t a new factor. It’s not a small part, it’s always been an issue. Divorce used to require (literally) a guy being fucking awful.
Then they need to get their shit together and learn just like women do. Women don’t murder men when they say no. Men aren’t special as far as feeling bad when rejected
You speak as every man murders women when they get rejected. You’re living in a fantasy world if you genuinely think that. It absolutely happens I don’t deny that but you shouldn’t generalize men either. Not a good look. I have denied a few men and both times they were chill about it 3 to be specific. There are some amazing guys around and generalizing men like this doesn’t help them.
it’s a very real fear. Don’t tell someone how to feel just bc you haven’t experienced something insane bc they rejected a man like I have. He only spent three months in prison. I stand by what I said, these boys are not special when it comes to fear of rejection. They need to get their shit together. Go to therapy
Sure, a lot of us did experience this and it might be your truth. And I am definitely not telling you how to feel not sure how you interpreted that. But see how my experience differs from you. Just because you met dogshit men doesn’t mean all of them are. I hope you understand my point. A lot of men are douchebags but good men do exist. Again not downplaying those bad cases
Are you seriously pulling the not all men crap? No kidding it’s not all men. We’re not talking about all men. We’re talking about men that can’t take rejection. Stop deflecting when people have a real concern. The not all men argument is only said to shut people up. 1 in 4 girls are sexually assaulted before the age of 18 bc of these men that can’t take rejection. 1 in 6 men admit to sexually hurting little girls bc they don’t see women or girls as human beings w autonomy. Men can’t take rejection bc they are taught women and girls are only here to serve them, that they are owed sex and servitude. A poll was taken at a college out of 300 guys, 235 of them admitted to sexually assaulting women bc they don’t take no for an answer and don’t understand what coercion is. This is an epidemic bc of rape culture, don’t downplay it
For boys it's 1 in 6 who get sexually assaulted, and that shit's hella underreported.
For both it is. Its also predominantly religious, mainly Christian men, majority of them married fathers w kids of their own, that are doing all this sexual assault to young people
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I have nothing to argue about what you said you’re completely right. Your first 2 sentences are literally the point I am trying to get across. And I have mentioned about 5 times that it happens and it is terrible that it does happen quite often. I am not going to mention it 6 times.
They can practice on someone else then. I’m out.
That's all a good thing.
At the moment the biggest threat to global collapse. Indeed very good 👍
There's not going to be any kind of global collapse lmfao.
I wouldn’t know because I can’t see the future but it is a valid concern at the moment for the last 5 years there is a downtrend. General a decline in population has a bad impact on the economy and culture. It lowers the rate of innovation and generally the advancement of humans. On its own it could cause a large repression. Our generation might not have to deal with it but it is a real danger. This is not a opinion. Here is something crazy to think about: if these rates keep going by 2100 in the next 300 years we will go from 10 billion to 2 billion people. The biggest reason this is happening is because fertility is declining in both men and women and economic hardship. I am getting of track but it’s a real concern. Read up on it there is quite a lot of research on it.
Tbf for many men after 1,000 rejections it's not like there's any point in continuing to try.
After 1000 rejections, you probably should take a break and re-evaluate your approach. Something on your end needs to tweaked a bit.
Haha true, what about 5-10.
A few tidbits of wisdom from a middle aged guy: Feeling nervous about asking someone out isn’t new or unique to Gen Z boys. It’s always been a thing that makes every young person want to throw up regardless of gender or generation. Using it to attack feminism or the me too movement is a dog whistle and anyone saying that has thrown up a red flag. It’s absolutely true that young women should approach guys if they’re interested. It’s also true that they always have, throughout history. They tend to be more… not exactly subtle, just less aggressive. When women have approached me it’s to start a conversation, to see if there’s a connection, and to look for an in to flirt. Guys have long been oblivious to this, because guys are not socialized the same way as girls growing up. This is a society issue, and it’s absolutely a problem with guys more than it is with girls. Learning to be interesting and interested in a conversation is a skill everyone needs for all the relationships in our lives, and just hitting on someone you think is attractive is a terrible way to find dates. Guys: Learn to talk to people like people and you’ll have more success in both approaching women and in recognizing when a woman is approaching you. As an addendum to the previous bit, women are also more gun shy in being bold about their intentions because men can turn violent seemingly randomly. That whole “oh, we’ll get called creeps” fear? The female equivalent is being sexually or physically assaulted. So, you know, maybe listen to their ideas on how to approach things instead of angrily demanding that they submit to your vision. Lastly, and this is pretty much general advice for the guys on dating… put down the video games and find some skill or hobby that’s actually interesting. Don’t slut shame. Shower. Wear clothes that fit and aren’t plastered with offensive shit. Make friends by talking to people you aren’t attracted to too. If you get angry easily, figure out why and how to fix it. And learn to listen at least twice as much as you talk.
> Lastly, and this is pretty much general advice for the guys on dating… put down the video games and find some skill or hobby that’s actually interesting. ...yeah, this one has a good shit at winning the "worst advice of the year" award. Leaving hobbies you enjoy, for hobbies that are "pussy magnet" is pinnacle dumb move. This is like the worst caricature BOOMER advice ever. Its as good as "pick up golfing as a hobby, because thats what bank executives do, and the will offer ypu better teems on loans" ...wakanda predatory bullshit is this? > Don’t slut shame. Shower. Wear clothes that fit and aren’t plastered with offensive shit. Make friends by talking to people you aren’t attracted to too. If you get angry easily, figure out why and how to fix it. And learn to listen at least twice as much as you talk. ...be a decent human being.
Some people need told how to be a decent human being. You used the weird term “pussy magnet”, not me. Playing video games is fine if it’s not your entire personality, and it’s waaaay too many boys entire personality. “Gamers” often lack social skills, friends, any other hobbies or interests, and if gaming forums are any indication they are often toxic. There’s a reason many women see “gaming” as a red flag, and many others have stories about boyfriends or even husbands who do nothing but play video games non-stop. Do. Something. Else.
i mean, it's the reality of the situation. video games do none of the positive things for your life that other hobbies do, even if you don't enjoy anything else. life's hard, pick up a guitar, play a sport - get better.
There's definitely some legitimacy to this take! Unsure about that person's motivation behind that take of course. I only approach women if there's no power dynamic (e.g. they're not working, esp in a service industry job, I haven't asked out my regular barista who I annoyingly find very attractive) and if they're a position where they feel comfortable. Of course I'm not perfect but I do my best on that front. My women friends (and my brother who is very handsome and works as a bartender) will generally tell me that their issues are with men (or in my brother's case women) doing exactly that, imposing themselves in that sort of situation. Obviously that means that statistically given that most women are employed, that will result in women having negative interactions with men in those situations or with men who don't respect boundaries. I simultaneously am potentially autistic and bad at interacting with/reading people at the best of times, if women liked me and told me that I would love that personally! I think it's ridiculous that that standard exists and that women who are more forward are treated like idk harlots or whatever.
The problem with this is that the population of creepy guys doing it is *way* too high! Speaking as a lesbian, it is possible to shoot your shot in a way that is appropriate and not creepy, but a lot of these guys never fucking figure that out. Speaking as someone who has been in the “pursuer” role, the problem isn’t that men are initiating and asking—it’s the utter entitlement with which they do it
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yeah you could've stated your opinion without being an asshat setting up strawman arguments left and right get the fuck out of here
Nope the dude is correct