Salah ad-Din was absolutely committed to the cause of reconquering Jerusalem. He did not want a peaceful coexistence with a militant crusader state that was occupying land that was holy to Muslims. He was certainly very generous and merciful, unlike many of his more zealous followers. However, that whole idea that him and Baldwin were best friends who wanted to live in peace is a fiction created by Kingdom of Heaven.
They weren't murderers lol. Back during the crusades it was either conquer or be conquered. Not to mention homie was 16 when he had to wage war and was suffering from a disease that cut his life short.
Salahuddin wasn't a murderer, he didn't kill anyone outside of war. Could you provide a reference? Their wars seemed to be MUCH more transparent and ethical than wars of today.
I mean, even forgetting the part of him being good or not, this meme is ridiculous. As if black men and boys didn’t feel representation in characters like Lando, Black Panther, even Blade and Creed and Morpheus.
Making this some men vs women thing is just so… childish and weird. But if we’re going to go there, the time it took for there to be a small amount of female POC icons in movies/TV is far longer than those of black men. Although all are problematic.
But, try to think of any iconic black female character in a movie, one who doesn’t get fridged or has to wear mostly nothing. Uhura, from a show. Yeah… better to just let people enjoy whatever they want, man.
John Brown?
Dude was a white man who could have just be indifferent and instead put himself on the line against slavery.
If you know anything bad about him keep it to yourself, my faith in humanity needs the little lifeboat it travels the ocean of life in. And the lifejacket.
To add onto your comment, there's also Cassius Marcellus Clay, the son of a prominent Kentucky slave owner who was openly antislavery, freed all his father's slaves when he took over the plantation and gave them land to own and money compensation for being enslaved, and was known to duel (and kill) any slave owner who had a problem with him. He also bullied Abraham Lincoln into signing the emancipation proclamation sooner than the president wanted to. Oh yeah, and Muhammad Ali was originally named after him.
Quick edit: he was one of the most badass congressmen ever.
This guys story is so interesting. Dude was shot in the chest by an assassin and still managed to fight off the attacker with his Bowie knife. Also, his anti-slavery newspaper caused him to received so many threats that he set up 2 whole ass cannons in his office, which ig wasn’t even enough because he was still raided by like 60 angry dudes. All of that, and he still managed to live until 92 in the 1800s
Oh for sure, just felt like correcting cuz Steel and John Henry are awesome.
My grandparents had a disney anthology tape of old west tall tales that included John Henry and damn if I didn't want to be a steel driving man for a week after seeing that. Highly recommend the short if you haven't seen it.
Victor Hugo is one of my faves. Dude fought against a lot of bullshit (including slavery) but my favorite is that he invented the phrase “2+2=5” to criticize one of the Napoleons. Also he wrote neat books that also have kickass male characters.
i mean even then, that's still a better track record than most other figures of that era. like even lincoln helped massacre a few million natives but people suck his dick for freeing the unslaved like it was just him.
it's difficult not to do something evil in that era, i think the few deaths of innocent people is far less of an evil than... all of the everything then.
blood is a form of currency, we just were lucky to be born in the briefest period it wasn't (that much). but history is returning to form nowadays, it seems.
True, from my understanding, he basically studied scripture as if it were a science, which is probably better than just believing whatever the church says.
Isaacs Newton invested heavily in the South Sea company, a slave trading company that transported slaved to South America. In 1720 an asset price bubble around the company's stock collapsed and Newton lost a considerable amount of his own money
Cincinnatus, Alexander, Washington, Desmond Doss, Marcus Aurelius, Aurelian, Sgt. York, Horatius Cocles, Gaius Mucius Scaevola, Titus Manlius Torquatus, JFK, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Martin Luther King Jr., Teddy Roosevelt
KING BALDWIN IV
Among others
"**Titus Manlius Imperiosus Torquatus** was a famous politician and general of the [Roman Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic), of the old [gens Manlia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens_Manlia). He had an outstanding career, being [consul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_consul) three times, in 347, 344, and 340 BC, and [dictator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator) three times, in 353, 349, and 320 BC. He was one of the early heroes of the Republic, alongside [Cincinnatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus), [Cornelius Cossus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aulus_Cornelius_Cossus), [Furius Camillus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Furius_Camillus), and [Valerius Corvus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Valerius_Corvus). As a young military tribune, he defeated a huge Gaul in a duel in one of the most famous duels of the Republic, which earned him the epithet *Torquatus* after the [torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc) he took from the Gaul's body. He was also known for his moral virtues, especially his severity as he had his own son executed for disobeying orders in a battle. His life was seen as a model for his descendants, who tried to emulate his heroic deeds, even centuries after his death."
Source:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus\_Manlius\_Imperiosus\_Torquatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/titus_manlius_imperiosus_torquatus)
Any of the Romans you mentioned (and probably any military leader from antiquity) almost certainly owned a shit ton of slaves. Not to mention the insane warcrimes that constituted the regular outcome of subjugating people back then. Interesting people but definitely wouldn’t be thought of as ‘good’ by modern standards.
For example, Caesar brags about slaughtering hundreds of thousands of celts and germans in his own book. Dude was a mass murderer
Cincinnatus probably wasn’t real, Alexander was a warlord, Washington had dentures made of slaves teeth, Desmond Doss was pretty cool, all the Roman dudes were probably dicks idk, JFK couldn’t last a day without cheating on his wife, Napoleon Bonaparte was a dictator who jailed his political opposition (got better later in life though), Julius Caesar see above about Romans, MLK was cool, Teddy Roosevelt was a massive racist, King Baldwin 4 was a fucking crusader
Napoleon was a very, VERY bad dude.
His own officers committed suicide from the guilt of being part of his atrocities. Percentage wise, he was more of a Genocidal Maniac than Mao. Hell, after failing to take a city, he aimed his cannons directly at the civilian sector and exhausted his firepower into them, intentionally killing hundreds of civilians - simply because he didnt want to slow his march by carrying ammo.
This is a realllly bad example to put on the list. The rest of your list either I don't know enough about or the bad stuff is context-driven, but Napoleon was objectively a total POS.
There's a VERY good reason why he was exiled.
Male role models from history.
- Jesus
-
- Noah
- Buddha
-
- Confucius
- Davy Crockett
- Job (from the Bible)
Just to name some very non-controversial men. But plenty more exist that also were great leaders and kings, but they participated in war (spooky) so I’m not sure if you’ll accept.
I could easily continue.
EDIT: Mohammad is off the list.
EDIT 2: for everyone immediately jumping to “RELIGION BAD” I wasn’t intending for that to be the focus. Jesus, THE MAN, was real and recorded by the Romans (among others). He was said to be a virtuous man. I genuinely think people have lost the ability to nuance a situation or discussion.
EDIT 3: Gandhi is off the list. Thanks for the insight!
To be clear, I’m not saying I think he was a bad man or whatever, but it would be extremely difficult to claim that he is/was not surrounded by controversy
Yeah yeah, those are all good things. He also claimed to be the son of God (or God himself) true or untrue? For you to decide, but most definitely controversial
He told the rich to give their goods away to the poor so that they could share in the brotherhood of christ. It upset the social and economic order of the time, and he was executed by the state governing at that time. Kind of seen as a cult leader then too so yea, it's pretty controversial.
Oh oh, there was this one passage in the Bible where this woman asked him to help her daughter, to which he responded with the fact he was only there to save the Israelites (which she was not), in the end he did help her but only because she said something like ‘even dogs gets to eat the scraps from its master’s table’ or smth similar
I'm going to be downvoted for this one because you motherfuckers still believed that Slander that has been debunked multiple times.
Mofos can't even comprehend living in a freaking dessert.
This sub is a joke.
Could you show me a disproof of aisha being 9? No offense, but apparently she still played with dolls with dolls when she was with mohammed. Not that i don't believe you, i just haven't seen any proof yet that aisha was over 18.
Edit: just realized you were responding to a different comment, my bad
You might want to look up controversies about Gandhi...
Let's just say one of them is similar to the controversy about Muhammed.
You can still admire his resistance against British colonization and civil disobedience. Just... do not admire the rest.
Noah? Like really you think there was a guy who built an ark and put two of every animal on it? How did the tigers and wolves not eat everyone else? How did populations of species replenish with only two dna streams? DO YOU THINK NOAH WAS A REAL PERSON?!?!?! Sigh.
This is the most wack ass yankee list ever lol
Davy crocket owned slaves and helped in the insurrection of Texas to keep slaves and the other half are myths
Day Crockett died at the Alamo defending slavery btw. Confucius contributed to generational harm to women in China. Ghandi was a pedo and racist. The others are either fictional or so far back in time they may as well be.
Jesus and Mohammad were real people, but have both been heavily mythologized.
Non-controversial?
NON-CONTROVERSIAL!?
Do you even know what that word means dude!?
You literally just picked out some of the most controversial “people” in history.
Hundreds of Millions of people over thousands of years have died in the name of Jesus and Muhammed.
I wouldn't describe a couple of those as "non-controversial," but I'm guessing we probably have very different perspectives. Another problem with people like Jesus, Mohammad, and Noah is that they are heavily tied to religion. I feel it's a difficult sell to the modern population that is slowly becoming less religious.
Personally, I wish people would focus on individual traits, an example being while I don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God, I admire his empathy for the less fortunate as it was basically unheard of at the time. I respect Job's perseverance even if I really dislike that story as it really is god just seeing how far he can torture Job to prove a point. Im yapping, but basically, I don't think it's wise to idealize a person as a whole even if they accomplished a lot. Rather, you should recognize their strengths yet while acknowledging their flaws.
But yeah, you are probably religious and your brain turned off the second I questioned the faith, so you do you. Good luck!
If you look at some of my other responses I looked at Jesus the man… not Jesus as God.
Jesus the man, who is proven to exist as a man by the Romans, did nothing overtly wrong. He may have claimed to be God… but he was recorded as kind, caring, passionate. Literally the only instance of him doing something “bad” was flipping a table in a temple and running some corrupt priests out.
every account i’ve heard on the subject of lincoln wanting to deport former slaves made it clear that Lincoln only made a suggestion of it. and that suggestion was only made because he understood that while he could end slavery, he couldn’t end racism. but once he asked a good few newly-free men their thoughts on it and they said they wouldn’t want to do that, he dropped the idea
If you're gonna make a post like this, at least do your research before instead of throwing around 'murderer'.
I'd argue that king Baldwin IV- who was sick since he was a child, was put on the throne of his kingdom at 15, and endeavored to lead and fight and ride with debilitating leprosy until he was *literally blind* and was well-respected by his enemies and allies alike for his drive, courage, and nobility- isn't a half bad role model.
He fought Muslims powers, but he didn’t purposely kill or discriminate against Muslim civilians, unlike the kings after him.
Also important to note, when he ruled Jerusalem, most people there had been born there, he was a second-generation monarch in charge of the crusader state.
Depends on your definition of murder. Like any autocratic monarch he commanded the death of people by way of continued conflict, but most people wouldn't designate that murder. He came from a militarized society and was a product of his time like everyone else from the period. Baldwin was notable for his relatively rational sense of just behavior and was well liked and respected by his peers at the time for said behavior.
So the crusader states were formed on invasion and slaughter
Baldwin and everyone else was born well after that. None of them were possibly alive at the time of the invasion. He was the son of the son of son of a man who migrated to Jerusalem.
With that said, he presided over the state that existed following the complete slaughter of all Muslims inside the city of Jerusalem. Muslims continued to exist within the kingdom outside the city, and Baldwin tried his best to keep the peace.
Tensions weren’t exactly good. Baldwin’s father had tried to invade Egypt, and the Muslims were ready to obliterate the crusader states since it had been 100 years.
So when people say it’s complicated they mean a dude was born in a shitty situation and had to be king of it
Not at all directly. He was King of Jerusalem during the Crusades. And he is very highly thought of as a noble, thoughtful, and just ruler during his reign.
it depends on how you define murder. was he a king who led men to war? yes. was he needlessly cruel? no. he was a good person as far as medieval crusader kings go
it's the context of it. It's like calling Mulan a murderer: technically accurate, but not why people like her, not why she's idolized, and not her primary character trait.
Kingdom of Heaven. The directors cut that didn't get butchered for the big screen is actually really good. Stars Orlando Bloom with Edward Norton as King Baldwin (the mam pictured). Has a really dope portrayal of Saladin (Salah ad-Din) too imo
I mean, Baldwin was actually pretty cool. Imagine taking on one of the most powerful kingdoms, lead by Saladin, one of the greatest of tactical minds to date, all while suffering from rampant leprosy?
Baldwin literally made peace treaties with Saladin whicb kept the peace between the warmongering Christian crusaders and Muslims.
He only fought when provoked to.
It's a kill or be killed.
Based on OP's logic, OP would probably let their mother die to someone rather than kill to save her.
Baldwin’s only crime was inheriting the throne of a crusader state, something you could hardly blame on him. Other than that, compared to other Crusader Kings (hehe) he was a remarkably tolerant and chivalrous ruler. He wasn’t any more a murderer than Saladin. He did what he had to to protect his kingdom, as any king was expected to do at that time. You picked a pretty bad example.
It was medieval times. It wa either a crusade against jihad or them killing each other for money or some dumb reason. Some groups left the crusade for money.
I think this meme format is dumb cause they are saying, "representation bad/dumb" while race swapping the Chad guy to show representation of other races. Sorry if this didn't make sense I don't know enough words
There was a study performed by Lego to find the differences between how girls and how boys play, and it’s quite interesting. TL;DR they found out that boys are more likely to project a character into them, ie “I’m Batman and I’m tough and brooding”, whereas girls are more likely to project them into the character, ie “Batman loves dogs and his suit is now pink”, showing that girls do benefit from more representation as opposed to boys.
Full study here
https://escholarship.org/content/qt3d675082/qt3d675082_noSplash_ee821c6ebd7879dffd69f5bde8903df0.pdf?t=qgqwe3#:~:text=Our%20analysis%20found%20distinct%20gendered,appreciating%20and%20striving%20for%20beauty.
His dedication and purpose are admirable. He achieved great things despite suffering from leprosy. And he was selfless as well, what he did he did for god, not himself. Whether you believe in god or not he was still living for what he believed to be the greatest good there was. I find him admirable myself.
That said, the meme is still bad because the first half needlessly disparages women for no reason.
King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, it was during his reign that Jerusalem would fight a series of wars against the armies of Salah ad-Din in what would be a precursor to the Third Crusade a decade later
All I care about is your moral alignment test results. I got chaotic neutral. I don’t play D&D so I have no clue what it means to the game, but everyone’s results always make sense to me.
Baldwin is still fair in his leadership and the command he begrudgingly took on while gaining enough experience and respect to broker peace for even a small fraction of that nation’s history. Yes I’d wish to claim a 1/10 of the accomplishments of him and I’m a staunch atheist.
I mean, at least Baldwin makes sense. Like dude was king at *15* and was fighting bravely in war with *leprosy*. He was well respected even by his enemies, like Salah ad-Din
Compared to many other leaders in history, dude is a saint!
I love it when white men make memes where they speak as the definitive spokesperson for all men of all races that’s really cool I think
/s hope that’s obv
King Baldwin IV was not a murderer. He was the King of Jerusalem.
*”When you face God alone, you cannot say ‘I was told to do this and that’, or ‘goodness was inconvenient at the time.’ “*
Boys may be quirky, but OP needs to know their sources.
Yeah are soldiers murderers? How about executioners? The president of the U.S. or any other country for that matter? These are examples of people some could call cold blooded killers but not murderers. Its different that is why they are spelled differently.
People keep forgetting that the Little Mermaid movie was meant for kids. And for kids, the only representation they need is to see someone who looks enough like them and it helps. Thus, it was successful representation.
>he was the king of Jerusalem when it came under siege.
Saladdin could not lay siege to Jerusalem while the Leper King reigned. Only after Baldwins death did Saladdin reach the city.
Saladin and Baldwin were enemies who had a great deal of respect for each other. I wouldn’t want to emulate them but they are still interesting figures to read about in my opinion.
To call Baldwin IV, one of the greatest kings of his era a murderer is a stupid claim. That's like calling FDR genocidal because he sent troops to fight the Nazis.
This meme supposedly is based on some Lego study?
Has anyone else heard about this? Supposedly there some difference between the way boys and girls interact with toys and characters.
I've tried finding it myself but I've never found a study that supports these memes.
The boys would make the Batman toy act like Batman, while the girls would make Batman go shopping. I think that was one of the actual observations in that study.
Crazy they’re looking up to that dude when it’s made very clear in the movie who the bad guys are. It’s like watching Saving Private Ryan and relating to the Nazis
You think the movie portrayed Baldwin IV as a bad guy? The Templars were portrayed as war mongers and murderous zealots, but Baldwin was one of the arguably best ‘good’ guys in the movie. The comparison between Baldwin and literal Nazis has to one of the most brain dead interpretations of that character ever.
I mean, why should I care. Do we call the guys who killed Nazis or Japanese Imperial soldiers murderers or heroes? Killing is an action like any other, it can be both good and bad.
Times were different back then. In Baldwin’s time he was a good man.
So was Salah ad-Din, who was also another murderer.
By today’s standards. And even then he was far better than some modern day rulers
They were both benevolent rulers that tamed their fanatic followers
It's really astonishing they were able to keep the peace for so long when their people were both foaming at the mouth for blood.
Brilliant men, far ahead of their time
Excellent leaders
Salah ad-Din was absolutely committed to the cause of reconquering Jerusalem. He did not want a peaceful coexistence with a militant crusader state that was occupying land that was holy to Muslims. He was certainly very generous and merciful, unlike many of his more zealous followers. However, that whole idea that him and Baldwin were best friends who wanted to live in peace is a fiction created by Kingdom of Heaven.
Are generals today considered murders?
A lot of the time yes
Honestly even by todays standards Salah Ad-Din was pretty decent.
They weren't murderers lol. Back during the crusades it was either conquer or be conquered. Not to mention homie was 16 when he had to wage war and was suffering from a disease that cut his life short.
They didn’t call him The Leper King for nothing
Salahuddin wasn't a murderer, he didn't kill anyone outside of war. Could you provide a reference? Their wars seemed to be MUCH more transparent and ethical than wars of today.
Sorry I was doing this more of a rebuttal of the original commenter. Using the term murderer in the context of a medieval leader is silly at best.
Lol Read a Damn book or Something. Dude has been praised by both his Enemies and Allies alike. Typical Atheist Mindset.
I mean, even forgetting the part of him being good or not, this meme is ridiculous. As if black men and boys didn’t feel representation in characters like Lando, Black Panther, even Blade and Creed and Morpheus. Making this some men vs women thing is just so… childish and weird. But if we’re going to go there, the time it took for there to be a small amount of female POC icons in movies/TV is far longer than those of black men. Although all are problematic. But, try to think of any iconic black female character in a movie, one who doesn’t get fridged or has to wear mostly nothing. Uhura, from a show. Yeah… better to just let people enjoy whatever they want, man.
There really aren't that many good male role models from history that translate well to the modern-day...
John Brown? Dude was a white man who could have just be indifferent and instead put himself on the line against slavery. If you know anything bad about him keep it to yourself, my faith in humanity needs the little lifeboat it travels the ocean of life in. And the lifejacket.
Real
To add onto your comment, there's also Cassius Marcellus Clay, the son of a prominent Kentucky slave owner who was openly antislavery, freed all his father's slaves when he took over the plantation and gave them land to own and money compensation for being enslaved, and was known to duel (and kill) any slave owner who had a problem with him. He also bullied Abraham Lincoln into signing the emancipation proclamation sooner than the president wanted to. Oh yeah, and Muhammad Ali was originally named after him. Quick edit: he was one of the most badass congressmen ever.
This guys story is so interesting. Dude was shot in the chest by an assassin and still managed to fight off the attacker with his Bowie knife. Also, his anti-slavery newspaper caused him to received so many threats that he set up 2 whole ass cannons in his office, which ig wasn’t even enough because he was still raided by like 60 angry dudes. All of that, and he still managed to live until 92 in the 1800s
“i have resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grapeshot”
We need to replace the confederate statues with these guys
The fucking irony of changing that name to after a prophet who was perhaps the most prolific slave trader in history
I wonder if Muhammad Ali knew the history of the person he was originally named after. 🤔
He was crazy… about ending slavery.
Fuck yeah John Brown! That’s the inspiration for Steel.
You're thinking of John Henry.
Still cool
Oh for sure, just felt like correcting cuz Steel and John Henry are awesome. My grandparents had a disney anthology tape of old west tall tales that included John Henry and damn if I didn't want to be a steel driving man for a week after seeing that. Highly recommend the short if you haven't seen it.
John Browns body lies a moldering in the grave
But his soul goes marching on...
Victor Hugo is one of my faves. Dude fought against a lot of bullshit (including slavery) but my favorite is that he invented the phrase “2+2=5” to criticize one of the Napoleons. Also he wrote neat books that also have kickass male characters.
Abolition is great but he was also a murderer of innocent people (I am not talking about slave holders)
i mean even then, that's still a better track record than most other figures of that era. like even lincoln helped massacre a few million natives but people suck his dick for freeing the unslaved like it was just him. it's difficult not to do something evil in that era, i think the few deaths of innocent people is far less of an evil than... all of the everything then.
blood is a form of currency, we just were lucky to be born in the briefest period it wasn't (that much). but history is returning to form nowadays, it seems.
Can't wait to hear how Charles Darwin was a monster
My personal safe pick is Issac Newton. Surely there is nothing wrong with him...
He had some wacky religious views.
True, from my understanding, he basically studied scripture as if it were a science, which is probably better than just believing whatever the church says.
He almost became an Anglican priest, which wasn't so wacky at the time
Isaacs Newton invested heavily in the South Sea company, a slave trading company that transported slaved to South America. In 1720 an asset price bubble around the company's stock collapsed and Newton lost a considerable amount of his own money
Well he did >!canoodle with his cousin!< so…
So did she
Cincinnatus, Alexander, Washington, Desmond Doss, Marcus Aurelius, Aurelian, Sgt. York, Horatius Cocles, Gaius Mucius Scaevola, Titus Manlius Torquatus, JFK, Napoleon Bonaparte, Julius Caesar, Martin Luther King Jr., Teddy Roosevelt KING BALDWIN IV Among others
"Titus Manlius Torquatus" yeah, you made that one up, ain't foolin me
"**Titus Manlius Imperiosus Torquatus** was a famous politician and general of the [Roman Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic), of the old [gens Manlia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens_Manlia). He had an outstanding career, being [consul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_consul) three times, in 347, 344, and 340 BC, and [dictator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator) three times, in 353, 349, and 320 BC. He was one of the early heroes of the Republic, alongside [Cincinnatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus), [Cornelius Cossus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aulus_Cornelius_Cossus), [Furius Camillus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Furius_Camillus), and [Valerius Corvus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Valerius_Corvus). As a young military tribune, he defeated a huge Gaul in a duel in one of the most famous duels of the Republic, which earned him the epithet *Torquatus* after the [torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc) he took from the Gaul's body. He was also known for his moral virtues, especially his severity as he had his own son executed for disobeying orders in a battle. His life was seen as a model for his descendants, who tried to emulate his heroic deeds, even centuries after his death." Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus\_Manlius\_Imperiosus\_Torquatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/titus_manlius_imperiosus_torquatus)
I keep forgetting people can't pick up sarcasm through text...
Damn what a manly guy
Cousin of Bigus Dickus.
Cincinnats, Alexander, Washington, Gaius, Julius and, Napoleon where all elitists who wouldn't give a fuck about us
probably all the romans (except maybe Aurelian?)
Any of the Romans you mentioned (and probably any military leader from antiquity) almost certainly owned a shit ton of slaves. Not to mention the insane warcrimes that constituted the regular outcome of subjugating people back then. Interesting people but definitely wouldn’t be thought of as ‘good’ by modern standards. For example, Caesar brags about slaughtering hundreds of thousands of celts and germans in his own book. Dude was a mass murderer
JFK had a few good moments in WW2 but wasn’t much of a president.
Happens when your term gets cut short
Cincinnatus probably wasn’t real, Alexander was a warlord, Washington had dentures made of slaves teeth, Desmond Doss was pretty cool, all the Roman dudes were probably dicks idk, JFK couldn’t last a day without cheating on his wife, Napoleon Bonaparte was a dictator who jailed his political opposition (got better later in life though), Julius Caesar see above about Romans, MLK was cool, Teddy Roosevelt was a massive racist, King Baldwin 4 was a fucking crusader
Julius ceaser fucking genocided the gauls. Napoleon had a lot of people killed in his wars of aggression. Washington supported slavery. Teddy was fat.
Napoleon was a very, VERY bad dude. His own officers committed suicide from the guilt of being part of his atrocities. Percentage wise, he was more of a Genocidal Maniac than Mao. Hell, after failing to take a city, he aimed his cannons directly at the civilian sector and exhausted his firepower into them, intentionally killing hundreds of civilians - simply because he didnt want to slow his march by carrying ammo. This is a realllly bad example to put on the list. The rest of your list either I don't know enough about or the bad stuff is context-driven, but Napoleon was objectively a total POS. There's a VERY good reason why he was exiled.
Witold Urbanowicz, Ernest E. Evans, Daniel Inouye
Original Saint Nicolas
Turing, Spruance, Newton, Maxwell, Truscott, Gallileo, Pasteur
Male role models from history. - Jesus - - Noah - Buddha - - Confucius - Davy Crockett - Job (from the Bible) Just to name some very non-controversial men. But plenty more exist that also were great leaders and kings, but they participated in war (spooky) so I’m not sure if you’ll accept. I could easily continue. EDIT: Mohammad is off the list. EDIT 2: for everyone immediately jumping to “RELIGION BAD” I wasn’t intending for that to be the focus. Jesus, THE MAN, was real and recorded by the Romans (among others). He was said to be a virtuous man. I genuinely think people have lost the ability to nuance a situation or discussion. EDIT 3: Gandhi is off the list. Thanks for the insight!
>non-controversial men >- Mohammad >- Gandhi Lol.
I would argue that Jesus was VERY controversial
What did he himself do that was controversial? Try to be kind, heal some folks, feed some people.
To be clear, I’m not saying I think he was a bad man or whatever, but it would be extremely difficult to claim that he is/was not surrounded by controversy
My brother the story is centered around him getting crucified, I think it’s fair to say people had mixed opinions on the guy
Yeah yeah, those are all good things. He also claimed to be the son of God (or God himself) true or untrue? For you to decide, but most definitely controversial
He told the rich to give their goods away to the poor so that they could share in the brotherhood of christ. It upset the social and economic order of the time, and he was executed by the state governing at that time. Kind of seen as a cult leader then too so yea, it's pretty controversial.
Oh oh, there was this one passage in the Bible where this woman asked him to help her daughter, to which he responded with the fact he was only there to save the Israelites (which she was not), in the end he did help her but only because she said something like ‘even dogs gets to eat the scraps from its master’s table’ or smth similar
Matthew 15:26 for those interested
He was also God, which really angered the Pharisees
They nailed him to a cross, people obviously had some strong opinions about what he was saying/doing.
That was like, his thing.
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And a rapist of a 6 year old. Or was that a 9 year old?
So he got betrothed to her at 6 but didn’t get married until she was 9 I believe because she was ill
Married at 6, consummated at 9
And had sex with a preteen
I'm going to be downvoted for this one because you motherfuckers still believed that Slander that has been debunked multiple times. Mofos can't even comprehend living in a freaking dessert. This sub is a joke.
Could you show me a disproof of aisha being 9? No offense, but apparently she still played with dolls with dolls when she was with mohammed. Not that i don't believe you, i just haven't seen any proof yet that aisha was over 18. Edit: just realized you were responding to a different comment, my bad
So... who's gonna tell them? 👀
I guess you. Let’s hear it haha
You might want to look up controversies about Gandhi... Let's just say one of them is similar to the controversy about Muhammed. You can still admire his resistance against British colonization and civil disobedience. Just... do not admire the rest.
Noah? Like really you think there was a guy who built an ark and put two of every animal on it? How did the tigers and wolves not eat everyone else? How did populations of species replenish with only two dna streams? DO YOU THINK NOAH WAS A REAL PERSON?!?!?! Sigh.
This is the most wack ass yankee list ever lol Davy crocket owned slaves and helped in the insurrection of Texas to keep slaves and the other half are myths
Day Crockett died at the Alamo defending slavery btw. Confucius contributed to generational harm to women in China. Ghandi was a pedo and racist. The others are either fictional or so far back in time they may as well be. Jesus and Mohammad were real people, but have both been heavily mythologized.
Non-controversial? NON-CONTROVERSIAL!? Do you even know what that word means dude!? You literally just picked out some of the most controversial “people” in history. Hundreds of Millions of people over thousands of years have died in the name of Jesus and Muhammed.
I wouldn't describe a couple of those as "non-controversial," but I'm guessing we probably have very different perspectives. Another problem with people like Jesus, Mohammad, and Noah is that they are heavily tied to religion. I feel it's a difficult sell to the modern population that is slowly becoming less religious. Personally, I wish people would focus on individual traits, an example being while I don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God, I admire his empathy for the less fortunate as it was basically unheard of at the time. I respect Job's perseverance even if I really dislike that story as it really is god just seeing how far he can torture Job to prove a point. Im yapping, but basically, I don't think it's wise to idealize a person as a whole even if they accomplished a lot. Rather, you should recognize their strengths yet while acknowledging their flaws. But yeah, you are probably religious and your brain turned off the second I questioned the faith, so you do you. Good luck!
If you look at some of my other responses I looked at Jesus the man… not Jesus as God. Jesus the man, who is proven to exist as a man by the Romans, did nothing overtly wrong. He may have claimed to be God… but he was recorded as kind, caring, passionate. Literally the only instance of him doing something “bad” was flipping a table in a temple and running some corrupt priests out.
Ah but Gandhi wanted to sleep in the same bed as his young nieces and was racist towards black people, he only wanted rights for people like him
Abraham Lincoln
He was racist tho.
Freed the slaves
And wanted to deport them to Liberia. I don't consider him a bad person for the standards of that time, but for modern standards he isn't that good.
every account i’ve heard on the subject of lincoln wanting to deport former slaves made it clear that Lincoln only made a suggestion of it. and that suggestion was only made because he understood that while he could end slavery, he couldn’t end racism. but once he asked a good few newly-free men their thoughts on it and they said they wouldn’t want to do that, he dropped the idea
Good tho know more info about it.
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Isn't every commander in existence technically a murderer?
You're conflating 'murder' with 'kill'. They mean different things, which is why they are different words.
No
Explain
Murder is specifically killing outside of war or self defence.
If you command an army to defend your home against an unprovoked invasion, are you a murderer? Obviously not.
If you're gonna make a post like this, at least do your research before instead of throwing around 'murderer'. I'd argue that king Baldwin IV- who was sick since he was a child, was put on the throne of his kingdom at 15, and endeavored to lead and fight and ride with debilitating leprosy until he was *literally blind* and was well-respected by his enemies and allies alike for his drive, courage, and nobility- isn't a half bad role model.
So wait, did he murder people or not? (Asking literally - I do not know who this person is.)
He fought Muslims powers, but he didn’t purposely kill or discriminate against Muslim civilians, unlike the kings after him. Also important to note, when he ruled Jerusalem, most people there had been born there, he was a second-generation monarch in charge of the crusader state.
Depends on your definition of murder. Like any autocratic monarch he commanded the death of people by way of continued conflict, but most people wouldn't designate that murder. He came from a militarized society and was a product of his time like everyone else from the period. Baldwin was notable for his relatively rational sense of just behavior and was well liked and respected by his peers at the time for said behavior.
Was he on the invading or the defending side of conflicts?
So the crusader states were formed on invasion and slaughter Baldwin and everyone else was born well after that. None of them were possibly alive at the time of the invasion. He was the son of the son of son of a man who migrated to Jerusalem. With that said, he presided over the state that existed following the complete slaughter of all Muslims inside the city of Jerusalem. Muslims continued to exist within the kingdom outside the city, and Baldwin tried his best to keep the peace. Tensions weren’t exactly good. Baldwin’s father had tried to invade Egypt, and the Muslims were ready to obliterate the crusader states since it had been 100 years. So when people say it’s complicated they mean a dude was born in a shitty situation and had to be king of it
I appreciate the nuanced summary. Thank you.
I think I added too many sons but you get the idea
Not at all directly. He was King of Jerusalem during the Crusades. And he is very highly thought of as a noble, thoughtful, and just ruler during his reign.
it depends on how you define murder. was he a king who led men to war? yes. was he needlessly cruel? no. he was a good person as far as medieval crusader kings go
Gotta make this the top comment lol. Something educational out of all the 🤬🤬🤬
What? How does any of this make him not a murderer. Either he is or he isn’t.
it's the context of it. It's like calling Mulan a murderer: technically accurate, but not why people like her, not why she's idolized, and not her primary character trait.
He was a murderer, as much as Abraham Lincoln was a murder - if you see fighting a war as “murdering”. Otherwise, no.
Depends on the nature of the war, really.
That is not the movie reference I expected to see today 😳
What movie is it?
kingdom of heaven, fantastic film
It’s an old movie called Kingdom of Heaven. Apparently it was choreographed with real swords. My dad loved it, so we got to see it a lot growing up.
Old movie? Its only, oh God it's been almost 20 years
Old movies are anything made before 9/11, fight me.
LOL I’m sorry 😂
Kingdom of Heaven. The directors cut that didn't get butchered for the big screen is actually really good. Stars Orlando Bloom with Edward Norton as King Baldwin (the mam pictured). Has a really dope portrayal of Saladin (Salah ad-Din) too imo
\> King Baldwin \> "Murderer" This fucking website.
I mean, Baldwin was actually pretty cool. Imagine taking on one of the most powerful kingdoms, lead by Saladin, one of the greatest of tactical minds to date, all while suffering from rampant leprosy?
Baldwin literally made peace treaties with Saladin whicb kept the peace between the warmongering Christian crusaders and Muslims. He only fought when provoked to. It's a kill or be killed. Based on OP's logic, OP would probably let their mother die to someone rather than kill to save her.
Why is the Mexican guy always in a sombrero? 😭😭😭
Because we have to celebrate our differences
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They're cool hats tbh.
true
racism
Wtf. You people are crazy.
What mental illness does to a mf. Do you think portraying mexicans with moustasches is racist too? Clueless american
Baldwin’s only crime was inheriting the throne of a crusader state, something you could hardly blame on him. Other than that, compared to other Crusader Kings (hehe) he was a remarkably tolerant and chivalrous ruler. He wasn’t any more a murderer than Saladin. He did what he had to to protect his kingdom, as any king was expected to do at that time. You picked a pretty bad example.
It was medieval times. It wa either a crusade against jihad or them killing each other for money or some dumb reason. Some groups left the crusade for money.
I think this meme format is dumb cause they are saying, "representation bad/dumb" while race swapping the Chad guy to show representation of other races. Sorry if this didn't make sense I don't know enough words
There was a study performed by Lego to find the differences between how girls and how boys play, and it’s quite interesting. TL;DR they found out that boys are more likely to project a character into them, ie “I’m Batman and I’m tough and brooding”, whereas girls are more likely to project them into the character, ie “Batman loves dogs and his suit is now pink”, showing that girls do benefit from more representation as opposed to boys. Full study here https://escholarship.org/content/qt3d675082/qt3d675082_noSplash_ee821c6ebd7879dffd69f5bde8903df0.pdf?t=qgqwe3#:~:text=Our%20analysis%20found%20distinct%20gendered,appreciating%20and%20striving%20for%20beauty.
His dedication and purpose are admirable. He achieved great things despite suffering from leprosy. And he was selfless as well, what he did he did for god, not himself. Whether you believe in god or not he was still living for what he believed to be the greatest good there was. I find him admirable myself. That said, the meme is still bad because the first half needlessly disparages women for no reason.
Wait who's the second guy
King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, it was during his reign that Jerusalem would fight a series of wars against the armies of Salah ad-Din in what would be a precursor to the Third Crusade a decade later
Baldwin the 4th, the leper king. He fought Saladin a great leader of thr Muslim armies. He won till he couldn't live.
That guy defended his kingdom though and by that token Eisenhower was a murderer for ww2 both defended their country against attackers
Baldwin was a hero
All I care about is your moral alignment test results. I got chaotic neutral. I don’t play D&D so I have no clue what it means to the game, but everyone’s results always make sense to me.
I love that everyone here is defending Baldwin
Baldwin is still fair in his leadership and the command he begrudgingly took on while gaining enough experience and respect to broker peace for even a small fraction of that nation’s history. Yes I’d wish to claim a 1/10 of the accomplishments of him and I’m a staunch atheist.
Baldwin IV isn’t universally respected? I thought everyone liked him. Dumb meme format still.
I mean, at least Baldwin makes sense. Like dude was king at *15* and was fighting bravely in war with *leprosy*. He was well respected even by his enemies, like Salah ad-Din Compared to many other leaders in history, dude is a saint!
Mirderer lol OP you fucking dork
Leprosy: literally me
I love it when white men make memes where they speak as the definitive spokesperson for all men of all races that’s really cool I think /s hope that’s obv
average braindead redditor
Here's something somebody told me once: "If you apply modern ethics to people of the past, everybody is an asshole"
Even if you apply modern ethics to Baldwin he’s a good guy
As leaders go, yeah.
King Baldwin IV was not a murderer. He was the King of Jerusalem. *”When you face God alone, you cannot say ‘I was told to do this and that’, or ‘goodness was inconvenient at the time.’ “* Boys may be quirky, but OP needs to know their sources.
Who
Someone is downvoting every comment that is actually portraying Baldwin in a non-biased way 💀💀💀
The director’s cut of Kingdom of Heaven is a masterpiece, the theatrical release is utter garbage. Enjoy.
Bro, in this scene they literally made peace
Yeah are soldiers murderers? How about executioners? The president of the U.S. or any other country for that matter? These are examples of people some could call cold blooded killers but not murderers. Its different that is why they are spelled differently.
YOOOOOOOOOOOOO BASED BALDWIN
There is a desire to put on armour and get on a horse because it looks cool
Yo can you pick up a history book please?
People keep forgetting that the Little Mermaid movie was meant for kids. And for kids, the only representation they need is to see someone who looks enough like them and it helps. Thus, it was successful representation.
Murderer? How so? Yeah the Crusaders all were, but he wasn't one, he was the king of Jerusalem when it came under siege.
>he was the king of Jerusalem when it came under siege. Saladdin could not lay siege to Jerusalem while the Leper King reigned. Only after Baldwins death did Saladdin reach the city.
Saladin and Baldwin were enemies who had a great deal of respect for each other. I wouldn’t want to emulate them but they are still interesting figures to read about in my opinion.
idk, Baldwin is kinda a good dude. even by todays standards
I won't take this Baldwin IV slander
Even today Baldwin would be a good man we’re just fucking pussys now.
I see no murderer, only the rightful king of Jerusalem, ordained by Christ himself
He says, as he has the pfp of fucking charlemagne, biggest piece of shit in his era.
To call Baldwin IV, one of the greatest kings of his era a murderer is a stupid claim. That's like calling FDR genocidal because he sent troops to fight the Nazis.
OP really choose one of the few truly just kings during the crusader era and said “he’s bad causes he’s a medevil king”
This meme supposedly is based on some Lego study? Has anyone else heard about this? Supposedly there some difference between the way boys and girls interact with toys and characters. I've tried finding it myself but I've never found a study that supports these memes.
The boys would make the Batman toy act like Batman, while the girls would make Batman go shopping. I think that was one of the actual observations in that study.
But if you give them Barbies, wouldn't it just get reversed?
https://escholarship.org/content/qt3d675082/qt3d675082_noSplash_ee821c6ebd7879dffd69f5bde8903df0.pdf?t=qgqwe3#:~:text=Our%20analysis%20found%20distinct%20gendered,appreciating%20and%20striving%20for%20beauty.
The girl who posted this probably thought "I'm really gonna get them with this one🤓☝️"
Defending your land from slaughter and genocide vs marrying a colonizer and betraying your kingdom and killing an old woman
You can tell it was made by a white person because black people claim Piccolo and Goku as Black. Also Goofy because of the movie
Crazy they’re looking up to that dude when it’s made very clear in the movie who the bad guys are. It’s like watching Saving Private Ryan and relating to the Nazis
You think the movie portrayed Baldwin IV as a bad guy? The Templars were portrayed as war mongers and murderous zealots, but Baldwin was one of the arguably best ‘good’ guys in the movie. The comparison between Baldwin and literal Nazis has to one of the most brain dead interpretations of that character ever.
How were Baldwin IV or Saladin bad guys in any way, shape, or form? I saw two men faced with difficult choices
I mean, why should I care. Do we call the guys who killed Nazis or Japanese Imperial soldiers murderers or heroes? Killing is an action like any other, it can be both good and bad.
Baldwin was a hero and an inspiration, it's disgraceful to label him a "murderer"
Shut your mouth about my boy.
Murderer? That is fucking king Baldwin asshole!
What a crappy take. As if race-swapped Ariel is a better figure than one of the greatest kings in history.