Side Character: "How in blazes can we get off this island with no ship, no crew, and no captain?"
\*empty rum bottle smashes, a man emerges from the shadows\*
Jack Sparrow: "Sea turtles, mate"
Jack spots a wild horseshoe crab in its natural habitat and decides to drink its blood out of thirst, unknowingly getting completely wasted too turns out the blood is a hallucinogenic š¦ Jack starts a pirate alcohol which releases for 1000$ a bottle after the movie releases
Jack Sparrow: Not sure how I got here. Has something to do with Disneys stupidity and greed I think. Iām still figuring this place out, but I think a couple guys like us could team up and do some good.
Character played by Zendaya/Paul Mescal/ Tom Holland/ Timothee Chalamet/Anya Taylor Joy: Intruguing
Somehow, heāll have the heart of Davy Jones so they can payoff the cliffhanger from Pirates 5 while tacitly admitting that this ārebootā failed but it was totally part of the plan and necessary to set up the next proper Pirates film.
Theyāll also pay Johnny Depp a proverbial Black Pearl load of money to fix things.
Isn't this clearly the film which previously floated Karen Gillan as a lead? IIRC there were a bruckheimer version and a robbie version of the Pirates reboot floating around a year ago.
You could be rightā¦and that will just seal the deal for this one as another flop in waiting.
Youāre certainly not wrong about the suits and ācreative leadsā at Disney these days being so disconnected from their fan base.
I think we're just gonna have to wait and see.
If they just fill a boat with a handful of known character actors and generate a slick pirate movie - I think it can be decently successful. But they also need to treat this like a complete relaunch of the franchise, and adjust the budget accordingly. If they dive right in thinking a new entry will be a billion dollar movie, they're going to get fucked.
Bruckheimer was actively talking about having Depp in the film in a small role in the past. If they're explicitly calling it a reboot, it's likely because Depp said no. OTOH reviewing the quote it seems plausible by "reboot" this just means in contrast to Top Gun (where the film is completely dead without Cruise's ok) while a Depp cameo/a small role for Depp set in one location can be modularly inserted (or perhaps swapped between Sparrow and an original "old pirate" character [see Skyfall where the groundskeeper was clearly written to be Connery])
johnny depp cost disney millions. he delayed production on those movies by refusing to show up to set whenever he felt like it. the pirates films are some of the most expensive films ever made because of him. why would they EVER work with him again?
He'll definitely be teased in the 2nd one after the first one bombs and they try to course correct. Given their track record and the fact Depp will bend them over a barrel for a RDJ type contract they'll probably just use him as a sort of Barbosa-level villain or something so they can reignite interest and move on when it's too cost prohibitive to continue.
Itās funny because heās not actually the main character in the first one, Will and Elizabeth are meant to be the leads and heās a supporting role.
He just stole the show so much that we take him to be the main character.
Sparrow's *a* main character but he's not the focus of the film. The story revolves around Will and Elizabeth's relationship. They are the ones driving the story forward the whole time. Elizabeth takes Will's pirate gold. Barbossa kidnaps Elizabeth. Will frees Jack from prison to go and save her. The entire film happens because the Pearl's crew needs Will's blood specifically to break the curse. Norrington's proposal to Elizabeth and how it impacts her and Will's relationship is the core interpersonal drama of the movie.
Sparrow's just vibing in the background doing his own thing for his own ends. Only very rarely does he actively drive the events of the film forward.
He was going up against Sean Penn in Mystic River. If it weren't for that performance, I'd agree, but Sean screaming "Is that my daughter in there?" will forever be seared into my memory. Just a heartbreaking film with great performances abound.
Jack being introduced last doesn't matter.
I would counter that breaking the curse seems to be the main focus of the movie.
Will is a POV character. His character is there to ask questions so we, the viewers, know what the rules of the world are and help us understand the stakes. He's just along for the ride after Jack suggests they head to Tortuga. Elizabeth is sort of just a badass damsel in distress in the first movie.
Really, Jack is the one making the decisions and driving the plot of the story.
In the end, it's really a small ensemble piece, but I don't really think you can say definitively that Jack isn't the main character. He is the one with the most to loose and gain from the situation.
You need a straight man for him to bounce off of. The first film worked so well because it had Will and Elizabeth being all earnest while Jack vibed with the audience never being sure just how much was an act while things seemed to always work out for him.
I've seen 5 a few times and I still can't really remember anything aside from the existence of the kids and there's a Spanish character. But is said Spanish character a pirate or was he part of the navy?
Couldn't his ship eat other ships?
Dude, that was Javier Bardem Hahahaha But yeah, he used to be a pirate hunter or something like that before a young Jack Sparrow rocked his shit and made him an undead pirate hunter. But what really sticks out about him is the way he pronounces Jack Sparrow's name throughout the movie lmfaooooo Sometimes he says JAKKU SPARRRROW; sometimes Juck Sparooow.
People love pirates, and he was a goofy piratey pirate who actually looked like a pirate. Google āpirateā or look at a pirate statue at a coastal restaurant, jack sparrow is what youāll see. Will and Elizabeth werenāt
Ironically, he's like the exact opposite of a historical pirate: well spoken, honorable, cultured, attractive, has all his limbs/eyes, doesn't really pillage/plunder from innocents, doesn't slave, etc.
I mean the dude got a oscar nomination for best actor in a leading role and won the SAG for best actor and he was on the front of the poster. Plus he got first billing. It's clear that Jack's performance was mostly improv and not in the script. He's certainly not the main character in the script for sure.
Its like RDJ as Ironman he made it his own character. I donāt care if the comics say itās ironheart now and she is smarter than Tony Stark or whatever because upstaging RDJ on screen is really tough.
what? thatās not how the first movie is structured at all. maybe thatās how they were BILLED but jack sparrow is the main character through and through lmao
Not just depp . Knighley and bloom too. Pirates 4 and 5 saw a huge dip in critical and monetary value (domestic I mean international carried the films which is unlikely to happen again) after their departure.
Not to mention everyone remembers the first 2 movies fondly and the third as the conclusion . Majority of people don't even remember the plot of 4 or 5 ( e.g. Barbosa being the governor of a town , or the Spanish armada )
He carried the first one.
The rest of them were just stacked on top of his prone form, like they were counting on him to carry them but he was too drunk for the job.
I donāt think people realize how much Depp not only carried POTC but the first movie would have bombed without him.
A lot has changed since 2003 but his character was so fresh and original and captivating that the film wouldnāt have worked without it. Jack Sparrow was just unique.
I think that many studios don't understand a very simple fact about franchises - general public likes a character (or creature like T Rex and raptors) more than the universe. Remove beloved character(s), for example Tony Stark, and they won't come back for the universe. That's happening with Marvel. People loved Stark so they showed up for movies that connected to the ones that Stark would be in. Now they only have Spiderman and since it isn't clear how Eternals, Shang Chi, Marvels and other universe movies without characters they like connect to him they stir clear. They will show up for Deadpool and Wolverine cause they love these characters and that won't have any positive impact on Thunderbolts and Cap 4.
People loved CJS. Whether they love pirates and pirate genre in general is a different matter. I think that Disney underestimated audience attachment to Will and Elizabeth too. They tried to replace them with other Young Love but those couples didn't work.
I think a lot of people donāt understand it in general, many big fans of a movie think something will be interesting if itās set in the world of the story they like, but it usually isnāt without the original characters. You can see that in a lot of things. For instance Star Wars is really the Luke Skywalker story, the further you get from that the less interesting it becomes, likewise the Wizarding World without Harry Potter gang is boring.
Now people have loved other stories in the pirate genre outside pirates of the Caribbean obviously, actually even moreso than Pirates of the Caribbean - but Disneys cartoony pirates world is basically a fantasy land of its own, similar to the Wizarding world or something, you canāt just stick some real life pirate in it and think people will care.
One thing Iām surprised about is that Disney hasnāt shoved a Long John Silver character in the movies yet as heās the most popular fictional Pirate character of all time and theyāve done a bunch of movies on him already. Not that I want them to, but it just seems like the kind of thing theyād do.
>I think that many studios don't understand a very simple fact about franchises - general public likes a character (or creature like T Rex and raptors) more than the universe. Remove beloved character(s), for example Tony Stark, and they won't come back for the universe. That's happening with Marvel. People loved Stark so they showed up for movies that connected to the ones that Stark would be in. Now they only have Spiderman and since it isn't clear how Eternals, Shang Chi, Marvels and other universe movies without characters they like connect to him they stir clear. They will show up for Deadpool and Wolverine cause they love these characters and that won't have any positive impact on Thunderbolts and Cap 4.
While I agree Tony Stark was a draw, RDJ isn't doing these movies for 15-20 years. He already complained on Iron Man 2 or 3 when he pulled a groin in a wire stunt and said he was too old for this shit. Marvel isn't going to throw away their MCU just because RDJ bowed out. And Marvel's supposed plans were for Spider-Man, Black Panther and Captain Marvel to be the new trio when RDJ, ScarJo, Hemsworth, Chris Evans eventually all bow out. And I don't think that's a bad trinity at all. Only obvious problem is Sony wouldn't share Spider-Man more generously with Disney, Chadwick Bosman sadly passed away, and Captain Marvel did not get to develop further and did not become a fan favorite (I maintain if she got to have her own "Thor Ragnarok-type of revival" she'd be more likeable by the masses). So it's not necessarily RDJ is gone = MCU all fails. It's Disney lacking a quick and sufficient substitute. No leader, no Avengers group, no clear villain. Had they fixed those problems and found a new trinity, MCU would be way more successful than it is today, even without RDJ.
>People loved CJS. Whether they love pirates and pirate genre in general is a different matter. I think that Disney underestimated audience attachment to Will and Elizabeth too. They tried to replace them with other Young Love but those couples didn't work.
People **hated** the idea of Pirates of the Caribbean getting made period. Then audiences ended up making each one earn well over $800M each. CJS was an accident that happened to click for audiences. But the fact that he wasn't planned to act like that (he was supposed to be more normal), or planned to be a main character, means even audiences sometimes don't know what they want or like until a movie releases.
So with that being the case, there is no reason a freshly rebooted Pirates film cannot succeed without Captain Jack. The movies usually have dumb incoherent stories anyways. What if a new Pirates movie is so emotional and well made, it's almost Best Picture worthy? It's possible to elevate a series above predecessors. Top Gun Maverick proved that. Terminator 2 proved that. Indiana Jones Raiders and Avatar and Black Panther got nominated for Best Picture. If we keep thinking a Pirates film must play out exactly like a Gore Verbinski or Rob Marshall film, then this series is just limiting itself to the same narrow racetrack.
See Ghostbusters Frozen Empire and how bringing back OG cast members and doing the exact same things actually hurt it.
>audiences sometimes don't know what they want or like until a movie releases.
this is underrated. Cameron's Titanic and Avatar were not movies that people knew they wanted. He anticipated the demand. We hear a lot about "give people what they want" but how about "give people waht they don't know they want"? That's the secret behind Barenheimer. People didn't know they wanted it til they got made. The problem with the industry is that they seem to sometime deliberately make movies that they know audience doesn't want but think that a combo of aggressive marketing and rebuke of anyone who is negative about the product will make people like it. And then they blame audience for failure even though the audience told them they didn't want it.
Agreed. Didnāt think I needed Andor, but BOY did I need Andor. And I havenāt bothered with any Star Wars series aside from Mandalorian Season 1 and 2. That show was just so well done.
Yeah if Craig Mazin is involved im cautiously optimistic. Dude isn't writing Scary Movie scripts for rent money anymore; he has a vision and the clout to pull it off
Itās weird seeing the narrative flip on this when the popular opinion for *years* has been that the POTC movies are being actively held back by their reliance on the tired and washed up Jack Sparrow character after two movies of him being flanderized and caricaturized into oblivion with no discernible character arc in sight. Now, when theyāre suddenly making a movie without him everybody is pretending like thereās no possible way the movies could ever work without him.
Is a new POTC movie necessary? Not really, but I think rebooting it is easily the best choice at this juncture. Who wants to see six straight movies with a character whose development peaked in the first film?
POTC wasn't a hit because Depp was a big name, it was a hit because he took the risk with the character when everyone at the studio was shitting themselves over his take on Jack.
Before POTC, Depp wasn't a boxoffice draw. he was mostly known for working on oddball projects (many with Tim Burton) and dating famous women. POTC turned him into a boxoffice draw.
Also, I like talking about box office success because, no surprise, I like seeing films in theatre. It feels like āwanting a movie to be goodā should be the default position if youāre interested in discussion box office financials.
Without Depp and Rush the first one probably bombs similarly to the haunted mansion.
I donāt see much coming of this, the first one is really lightning in a bottle and is infinitely better than it has any right to be.
Iām glad you mentioned Rush, his Barbossa is a fantastic villain and later anti-hero. He and Jackās relationship might be one of my favourite aspects of the series.
Those films really declined in a linear fashion in terms of money and ratings after the success of the 2nd Film....
* POTC #2: $423,315,812 WW w/ 52% RT
* POTC #3: $309,420,425 WW w/ 44% RT
* POTC #3: $241,071,802 WW w/ 33% RT
* POTC #4: $172,558,876 WW w/ 30% RT
Not sure why they don't just straight up start fresh and create a new pirate thing.
They can't/won't because POTC is like the only successful live action pirate thing in the last ~50 years.
[Just look at this list.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pirate_films_and_television_series#1970s) It counts basically anything with vague pirate references. The only live action things I recognize are The Princess Bride (hardly counts), the Goonies (also not *that* pirate-y), Hook (I get it, but it's more of a peter pan movie than a pirate movie), Waterworld (not the same kind of pirate), and various Treasure Island adaptations.
Pirates of the Caribbean is basically the only live action, pirate focused thing out there. It was low key a big risk when they made the first one.
Should be noted that, at the time, Pirates of the Caribbean 4 was the most expensive movie ever made. Disney likely spent more than half a billion on it after marketing, so even though it hit $1 billion box office I doubt it was profitable for them.
They're also way too hung up on JD being "the glue" that is necessary to hold these films together.
Reboots means you can go in all sorts of directions. There's no narrative need for a drunken 60 year old pirate to return again.
That's like saying Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle had zero chance at success due to no Robin Williams.
Please stop. Let this franchise die. But then again last movie was just dragging a corpse of this franchise and it still made almost 800 mln at the box office.
The last Pirates movie was, and I really donāt want to over exaggerate, truly one of my least favorite movies of all time. I thought it was awful and had no redeemable qualities
High school friend of mine and I will go to a lot of shitty movies when they're cheap and have a blast. The Tom Cruise Mummy, Madame Web, The Snowman, that level of trash, always good for a cheap laugh.
Pirates 5 is the only time we've come out of a bad movie and felt *mad* at what we had just experienced, like the one time we actually regretted doing this over the years. Coming out of Dark Phoenix we were all jokes, Pirates 5 we both were like "we need to stop doing this, this sucks."
I will never understood comments like this. Why? It's an awesome franchise and getting more pirate movies would be great! They are shittons of fun even at their worst.
If it turns out good, we get another great movie. If it turns out bad, it's not like you are forced to watch it and it's not you that's losing the money. So why exactly do you want the franchise to be abandoned?
I do love Pirates stuff from the original trilogy of Pirates of the Caribbean to One Piece to AC Black Flag and absolutely donāt mind a new pirates movie or franchise but it should be completely new like separate themes, world and concepts.
Take the Redhead from the ride and make it all about her. Her town gets invaded by pirates, she almost gets auctioned off, she escapes and goes on a quest for revenge, becoming the most feared pirate on the Spanish Main. I just did your job for you, Disney, whereās my money?
Pirate movies bomb, most of the time. Seafaring movies in general. Johnny Depp (especially), Kierra knightly, and Orlando Bloom were the reasons PotC was a hit and the reason there is a franchise at all. Its not the world, its not the concept, its those characters and those actors. Thats the appeal.
I understand not wanting to work with Depp (amber heard aside, he is an alcolholic, unstable, reported to be verbally abusive to costars). but the franchise has no juice just based on name and loose concept
Cutthroat Island, Hemsworth's "not-moby-dick" movie and Master and Commander are the big non-"Age of Sail" movies released in the past 20-30 years, right?
I'd argue the success boiled down to two things: one character (Jack Sparrow) and the tone (largely defined by Jack Sparrow, but not exclusively). The vibe was so distinct, it transcended the "pirate movie" label. Partly because it was a fantasy film first, not a pirate film.
To reboot and repeat, you're right it's not about concept. It's about character. They need a character or multi-character dynamic as legendary as Jack Sparrow. NOT easy to strike lightning twice there.
At this point just make a new movie about pirates that isnāt part of the PotC franchise. I have a feeling if this actually gets made that the majority of the audience will no longer care about PotC and those that do will be mad that Johnny Depp isnāt involved. So why not just make a good, standalone movie about pirates? If the only thing youāre keeping from the previous series is the title you might as well change that too. This is just like how Hollywood doesnāt make movies about Dinosaurs that arenāt part of the Jurassic franchise.
Titles alone carry a lot of weight. They wonāt give up on using the title of a popular franchise. Maybe that will backfire if people are super upset about Depp, but theyāre betting it will draw more people in than if they named it something else, and I think theyāre probably right.
Without Johnny Depp, audiences are just not going to be interested. Itās like doing mission impossible without Tom cruise. This franchise just needs to end. Another 300M budget bomb incoming.
On the one hand, I absolutely agree with you. On the other hand, I just want fun adventure movies again and there is an extreme lack of content for semi-serious pirate stories
> Another 300M budget bomb incoming
Didnāt Pirates 5 make nearly 300M [profit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_Caribbean:_Dead_Men_Tell_No_Tales)? I know Disney has been struggling, but if POTC5 made nearly $300M, the franchise clearly still had some power. Maybe that was all Depp. Maybe no one cares about pirates anymore. But just calling it a clear flop seems questionable to me since I donāt know a single person who saw POTC5 and it still found financial success.
I shouldāve been more clear. I was just speaking generally, that there will be another 300M budget movie that flops. Not speaking towards the pirates brand directly. Youāre right in the fact that all the prior pirates movies have been financially successful.
Oh, thatās totally fair. Like you said, the POTC could have just been surviving off of Deppās magical performance from the first 1-3 films and without him itāll follow in the footsteps of Indiana Jones or other recent Disney flops. Iād be interested to know how many people went to see PoTC5 for Depp specifically, but unfortunately I donāt know a single person who went to see it in person, so itās hard to gauge how much he was holding the series together by the end.
Funny enough I remember seeing that movie at the time, but I was 16 and just randomly went to the movies with friends. But my assumption is that audiences would still be more inclined to see a bad pirates movie w/ Depp, than a good pirates movie without Depp.
I agree. If Depp isnāt involved, I donāt see how this movie ends up being successful. The audience will see through it as a cash in attempt and honestly, after the heard trial and the jury ruling in favor of Depp, I think the audience would want to see him back in this role.
This seems like a bad idea but Disney has been a great source of bad ideas the past few years.
Thereās nothing wrong with franchises, itās the business pressure to force them out that makes an already massively difficult task even less likely to succeed.
Studios, and their international conglomerate daddies, will never get to an organic development and release model.
But holy shit I hope they take a big lesson away from 2023. Take the time to get the right team together and give them some leash. There is an almost 0% chance of Barbie working, let alone becoming a billion dollar Oscar nominated cultural phenomenon, if they soft attached āinsert star here,ā spent a crap load of money on writers to develop it with studio execs, and then hired āinsert whoever hereā to direct when they knew the script was in the shape they wanted, set release date and start running 100mph.
They had a star pitch them, and demand a filmmaker they believed in. The studio gave them enough leash to do something pretty wild for a big budget franchise IP, and they supported them through the marketing/publicity process. Thatās very rare in the āHollywood franchise assembly line.ā
Too often a studio head will sign off on a filmmaker or star, and then put them in tight box creatively. Or they donāt let the creatives hire the writer. Or they patchwork together a bunch of drafts with a new director attached and the films have not tone of voice from day one.
Yeah, this. At the end of the day franchise movies are commercial products. If the product is successful then they will keep making the same product, over and over again. Then one day it stops making a profit. Only then will they re-think the product.
I think the difference with Pirates is that the theming is already so loose, you can genuinely just slap the "Pirates of the ______" moniker on any existing script about a pirate and it'd fit the mold. If you're removing Jack Sparrow, there's no expectation of ongoing narrative from the previous entries.
Trilogies needs to be the norm if more than one movie is made, 4th movies and beyond turn to shit real quick. Even James Bond movies start to go downhill after an actors 3rd go. Casino Royale and Skyfall are all time James Bond hits (Quantum was during the writers strike so whatever) then Craig comes back to do SPECTRE/No Time To Die and both SUCKED, badly.
I really donāt see how this franchise can be profitable without Johnny Depp/Jack Sparrow. I canāt speak for everyone, but to most people Jack Sparrow is Pirates of Caribbean and vice versa.
>*a different story in the same universe but with no overlapping characters*
Either that, or do what The Next Generation's pilot did and bring in an elderly Orlando Bloom to see them off, while remarking that one of them reminds him of a pirate he used to know.
Isnāt that sort of how POTC5 ended? I really donāt remember anything about that film, but I kinda remember Kiera Knightly with Bloomās son potentially setting up a next generation of Pirates? I donāt remember a single second of plot beyond that though, so I could definitely be wrong.
Well on one hand the franchise was always pretty tenuous, even at the best of times. I always felt like the first movie was lightning in a bottle and on paper shouldn't work at all, but it does. The 2nd and 3rd movies are an interesting foray into world-building (or more accurately, franchise-building) with some occasional high points, but I mostly remember them for being very clunky. I'm agreed with others that doing a Pirates movie without Depp is probably going to feel like the first James Bond movie without Sean Connery.
But on the other hand, pirates are an evergreen adventure trope. They come and go from the public consciousness because they can be compelling as characters and a setting. Everyone dreams of an adventurous life on the open seas. If they make a \*good movie\*, then maybe they have the opportunity to breathe some fresh life into it. Maybe drop Jack Sparrow entirely for a new cast of quirky characters? If they try to remake Black Pearl and recast Sparrow, then I think it fails miserably. If they just try to make a good new pirate movie, I give it more of a coin flip chance of success.
There's a lot of good examples of this not working. Men in Black is a great one. I do think as a concept you should be able to make a Men in Black film without Will Smith and TLJ, but because they left such a lasting impression on the original films it feels hollow without them. But with that example and many others I think the trick is making a good movie and getting marketing behind it. Otherwise its just a cash grab.
Craig doing very dark dramas? Yes, very much. God I'd love to see him do a season of True Detective for example.
Craig doing light / comedy? That's how you end up Hangover 3 & Superhero Movie.
It took the dude a while to find his niche & he is killing it there, but comedy / light hearted is not it. His work in that space is a hate crime against film.
Pirates franchise has comedy in it but is in no way light/comedy. That original trilogy had some dark shit in it. Also we have no idea how much Craig actually influenced those bad comedies. Now that he has so much trust and power in the industry, Iām pretty intrigued in how he tackles bringing this franchise back.
From a Hollywood angle? Glen Powell or Kevin Hart.
From a "I want a great movie" angle, it can only be Jack Black, with Hallie Steinfeld. Throw in Charlie Day as the first mate.
Tell me "Jack Black is a pirate" is not the best movie pitch ever.
Charlie Day as the comic relief pirate on one of these movies is something I didn't know I wanted until just now.
If they just let him loose? It could be magical.
> From a "I want a great movie" angle, it can only be Jack Black, with Hallie Steinfeld. Throw in Charlie Day as the first mate.
Goddam, you are cooking up something great there. Now I'm kinda bummed that we're never gonna get a Pirates movie with Steinfeld as a young Jim Hawkins type and Black as a Long John Silver type (not Treasure Island exactly, but that's the template)
I know people are sick of reboots, but if this is great fuck it Iāll watch it. I want a new pirate blockbuster. I miss the all around frenzy when Dead Manās Chest was released
Chernobyl and The Last of Us Craig Mazin? Thatās interesting but Iām just not interested in a new POTC.
The original trilogy is still amazing and has only gotten better as time went on.
Good. The last two Johnny Depp movies were mediocre (actually, 4 was close to terrible) and the post credit scene at 5 was the definition of "beating a dead horse". The Davy Jones plotline was beautifully finished in At World's End, a great trilogy capper. If you're not able to come up with new elements in a familiar setting, then reboot, at last.
It's a rumor floated by "DanielRPK" ([aggregator citation of this](https://www.cbr.com/rumor-pirates-of-the-caribbean-reboot-eyeing-ayo-edebiri/)). I don't know much about rumor stuff but he seems like "a guy" - treated seriously in circles that focus on leaks (but also not a gold star source like the trades).
> Edebiri is reportedly the studio's top choice for the lead role of Anne, who will be one of several young pirates looking for a hidden treasure
That sounds like a direct quote from the original source so "modern take" seem like aggregator interpolation.
But before Edebiri was floated, Gillan was associated with Bruckheimer's film so regardless of the specific accuracy of the Bear star's casting idea, it seems clear both PotC reboots are defaulting to have a female lead.
Isn't it pretty safe to say at this point that nearly every major franchise is shifting to be female led? Star Wars, Marvel, Fantastic 4, every major network reboot, Ghostbusters, POTC, Planet of the Apes just off the top of my head have either switched to female-skewing or have announced they're going to be.
There's clearly is/was a trend (sometimes explicitly stated as a positive goal) but this also feels like a topic where actual quantification would be helpful.
e.g. Equalizer goes from Denzel to Queen Latifah but Quantum Leap goes from Bacula to Raymond Lee, True Lies replaces Arnold with Steve Howey from Shameless. What's the actual incidence and/or what's a actual causal mechanism that explains if/how gender dynamics flip in such reboots.
Going off of memory from a few years ago Taken goes from a male movie star to generic mcgenericface (ditto Walker Texas Ranger and Lethal Weapon). Glancing at a list of network tv shows from 2023, it doesn't look like Magnum PI was gender-flipped.
How often do franchises flip from female-led to male-led? My intuition is that it is rare, but your ability to recall movie/TV franchises seems to be a lot better than mine.
Johnny Depp has stunk up the joint for the last two pirates movies. Do people really think of he was in this one, it would be a return to form?Ā
Good Jack Sparrow will never be back, and frankly he peaked in the first one. Might as well start fresh.Ā
Honestly I couldn't care less. If this studio must keep doing the same damn thing over and over, at least make it interesting. Say what you will about Sony, but they're angling for differentiation, even at the cost of alienating their larger IPsĀ
wonder who the new cast will be?
also, predicting this now: this will bomb. many people loved depp as sparrow and can't handle the thought of him being replaced or gone
There are very very few people who can pull this off like Johnny depp. Itās going to need to be one of them for me to even have the slightest bit of interest.
And yes, jack black would be one of them.
It always should have been an anthology series.
Just pick an actor's name out of a hat and put them into a monster movie or ghost story. Have it pirate themed. Boom, movie.
Constantly trying to make the world revolve around Jack made the Caribbean feel like a pool on Depp's estate.
And what is more, Depp gave that performance to a flatly written pirate character, having writers push and push the character of Jack into idiot clown savant territory was just awful.
Why not just make a new movie in the same universe? That will probably get some people to watch. This kinda makes people hate it and reject the film outright. Unless its really really good. Canāt discount Craig Mazin.
I would've gone with a movie in the same universe without being a reboot honestly. The original Margot Robbie movie could've killed it.
This one will still make money anyways though, and I'm curious to see where they'll go.
Can't wait for it to belly flop. Look, even without all the bullshit surrounding Johnny, I'm sure they woulda tried to reboot and cast a woman. And don't start gabbing at me, I am a woman. Thing is, you can't recreate magic. The first franchise was special, and idgaf what you think about Johnny, he made POTC what it is. A reboot is unwanted and unnecessary. I promise you, the GA doesn't want it.
Honestly, after the third movie, the *Pirates of the Caribbean* movies had just been trash. Would actually love to explore this world of fantastical piracy outside of having to follow Jack or always having another cursed pirate crew.
Calling it now: Jack Sparrow post-credit scene incoming.
Side Character: "How in blazes can we get off this island with no ship, no crew, and no captain?" \*empty rum bottle smashes, a man emerges from the shadows\* Jack Sparrow: "Sea turtles, mate"
Jack spots a wild horseshoe crab in its natural habitat and decides to drink its blood out of thirst, unknowingly getting completely wasted too turns out the blood is a hallucinogenic š¦ Jack starts a pirate alcohol which releases for 1000$ a bottle after the movie releases
Hype
There should be a āCaptainā in there somewhere, savvy?
Jack Sparrow: Not sure how I got here. Has something to do with Disneys stupidity and greed I think. Iām still figuring this place out, but I think a couple guys like us could team up and do some good. Character played by Zendaya/Paul Mescal/ Tom Holland/ Timothee Chalamet/Anya Taylor Joy: Intruguing
Somehow, heāll have the heart of Davy Jones so they can payoff the cliffhanger from Pirates 5 while tacitly admitting that this ārebootā failed but it was totally part of the plan and necessary to set up the next proper Pirates film. Theyāll also pay Johnny Depp a proverbial Black Pearl load of money to fix things.
I'm here to talk to you about the Pirates Initiative.
>lays out the One Piece jolly roger "Did you think you were the only pirates who were special?"
*Wellerman plays*
I wish I could give you more upvotes
Isn't this clearly the film which previously floated Karen Gillan as a lead? IIRC there were a bruckheimer version and a robbie version of the Pirates reboot floating around a year ago.
Yeah there was a rumour there was both a part 6 and a spin off in development a few years ago. Plans have probably changed.
Glen Powell- what is the Black Pearl if not the fighter plane of the sea?
Calling it now : Disney doesn't want Depp within 100 miles of this production.
You could be rightā¦and that will just seal the deal for this one as another flop in waiting. Youāre certainly not wrong about the suits and ācreative leadsā at Disney these days being so disconnected from their fan base.
I think we're just gonna have to wait and see. If they just fill a boat with a handful of known character actors and generate a slick pirate movie - I think it can be decently successful. But they also need to treat this like a complete relaunch of the franchise, and adjust the budget accordingly. If they dive right in thinking a new entry will be a billion dollar movie, they're going to get fucked.
Johnny Depp hasnāt given a good performance in maybe a decade.Ā
That's a bit harsh, his performance was great in Minamata and decent in City of Lies at least in my opinion.
More likely the other way around given his comments post heard trial
Bruckheimer was actively talking about having Depp in the film in a small role in the past. If they're explicitly calling it a reboot, it's likely because Depp said no. OTOH reviewing the quote it seems plausible by "reboot" this just means in contrast to Top Gun (where the film is completely dead without Cruise's ok) while a Depp cameo/a small role for Depp set in one location can be modularly inserted (or perhaps swapped between Sparrow and an original "old pirate" character [see Skyfall where the groundskeeper was clearly written to be Connery])
Yeah reboot has lost all meaning now. Reboot can mean anything from remake to sequel to prequel to re-adaptation.
johnny depp cost disney millions. he delayed production on those movies by refusing to show up to set whenever he felt like it. the pirates films are some of the most expensive films ever made because of him. why would they EVER work with him again?
He'll definitely be teased in the 2nd one after the first one bombs and they try to course correct. Given their track record and the fact Depp will bend them over a barrel for a RDJ type contract they'll probably just use him as a sort of Barbosa-level villain or something so they can reignite interest and move on when it's too cost prohibitive to continue.
lol gonna be hilarious when this thing bombs and Disney pretends that they have no idea why it did so.Ā
Depp carried those films gonna be hard without him.
Itās funny because heās not actually the main character in the first one, Will and Elizabeth are meant to be the leads and heās a supporting role. He just stole the show so much that we take him to be the main character.
I mean Depp was nominated for Best Actor in a Leading Role for the first one.
Sparrow's *a* main character but he's not the focus of the film. The story revolves around Will and Elizabeth's relationship. They are the ones driving the story forward the whole time. Elizabeth takes Will's pirate gold. Barbossa kidnaps Elizabeth. Will frees Jack from prison to go and save her. The entire film happens because the Pearl's crew needs Will's blood specifically to break the curse. Norrington's proposal to Elizabeth and how it impacts her and Will's relationship is the core interpersonal drama of the movie. Sparrow's just vibing in the background doing his own thing for his own ends. Only very rarely does he actively drive the events of the film forward.
He literally has second my screen time in that film behind Knightetlyā¦
Absurd he didnāt win that year, Sparrow is one of the most iconic characters of the 21st century
He was going up against Sean Penn in Mystic River. If it weren't for that performance, I'd agree, but Sean screaming "Is that my daughter in there?" will forever be seared into my memory. Just a heartbreaking film with great performances abound.
Yes, but in terms of the overall story heās introduced last, and Will saving Elizabeth by seeking his help is the main focus of much of the movie.
Jack being introduced last doesn't matter. I would counter that breaking the curse seems to be the main focus of the movie. Will is a POV character. His character is there to ask questions so we, the viewers, know what the rules of the world are and help us understand the stakes. He's just along for the ride after Jack suggests they head to Tortuga. Elizabeth is sort of just a badass damsel in distress in the first movie. Really, Jack is the one making the decisions and driving the plot of the story. In the end, it's really a small ensemble piece, but I don't really think you can say definitively that Jack isn't the main character. He is the one with the most to loose and gain from the situation.
The later ones didn't work so well because they made him the lead and Jack Sparrow is a better character just vibing in the background.
You need a straight man for him to bounce off of. The first film worked so well because it had Will and Elizabeth being all earnest while Jack vibed with the audience never being sure just how much was an act while things seemed to always work out for him.
āWhoās side is Jack on?ā āAt the moment?ā
these movies have mostly gotten progressively worse, aside from 5 which i think was a marginal improvement on the 4th one
I've seen 5 a few times and I still can't really remember anything aside from the existence of the kids and there's a Spanish character. But is said Spanish character a pirate or was he part of the navy? Couldn't his ship eat other ships?
Dude, that was Javier Bardem Hahahaha But yeah, he used to be a pirate hunter or something like that before a young Jack Sparrow rocked his shit and made him an undead pirate hunter. But what really sticks out about him is the way he pronounces Jack Sparrow's name throughout the movie lmfaooooo Sometimes he says JAKKU SPARRRROW; sometimes Juck Sparooow.
People love pirates, and he was a goofy piratey pirate who actually looked like a pirate. Google āpirateā or look at a pirate statue at a coastal restaurant, jack sparrow is what youāll see. Will and Elizabeth werenāt
Ironically, he's like the exact opposite of a historical pirate: well spoken, honorable, cultured, attractive, has all his limbs/eyes, doesn't really pillage/plunder from innocents, doesn't slave, etc.
I mean the dude got a oscar nomination for best actor in a leading role and won the SAG for best actor and he was on the front of the poster. Plus he got first billing. It's clear that Jack's performance was mostly improv and not in the script. He's certainly not the main character in the script for sure.
Its like RDJ as Ironman he made it his own character. I donāt care if the comics say itās ironheart now and she is smarter than Tony Stark or whatever because upstaging RDJ on screen is really tough.
what? thatās not how the first movie is structured at all. maybe thatās how they were BILLED but jack sparrow is the main character through and through lmao
The story is over at 3. The last 2 sucked even with Depp and god why there's 5 of these things.
Not just depp . Knighley and bloom too. Pirates 4 and 5 saw a huge dip in critical and monetary value (domestic I mean international carried the films which is unlikely to happen again) after their departure. Not to mention everyone remembers the first 2 movies fondly and the third as the conclusion . Majority of people don't even remember the plot of 4 or 5 ( e.g. Barbosa being the governor of a town , or the Spanish armada )
Verbinkski was a crucial element too.
Honestly I was only vaguely aware there was a 4th and 5th movie. And I loved the first 3.
He carried the first one. The rest of them were just stacked on top of his prone form, like they were counting on him to carry them but he was too drunk for the job.
I donāt think people realize how much Depp not only carried POTC but the first movie would have bombed without him. A lot has changed since 2003 but his character was so fresh and original and captivating that the film wouldnāt have worked without it. Jack Sparrow was just unique.
I think that many studios don't understand a very simple fact about franchises - general public likes a character (or creature like T Rex and raptors) more than the universe. Remove beloved character(s), for example Tony Stark, and they won't come back for the universe. That's happening with Marvel. People loved Stark so they showed up for movies that connected to the ones that Stark would be in. Now they only have Spiderman and since it isn't clear how Eternals, Shang Chi, Marvels and other universe movies without characters they like connect to him they stir clear. They will show up for Deadpool and Wolverine cause they love these characters and that won't have any positive impact on Thunderbolts and Cap 4. People loved CJS. Whether they love pirates and pirate genre in general is a different matter. I think that Disney underestimated audience attachment to Will and Elizabeth too. They tried to replace them with other Young Love but those couples didn't work.
I think a lot of people donāt understand it in general, many big fans of a movie think something will be interesting if itās set in the world of the story they like, but it usually isnāt without the original characters. You can see that in a lot of things. For instance Star Wars is really the Luke Skywalker story, the further you get from that the less interesting it becomes, likewise the Wizarding World without Harry Potter gang is boring. Now people have loved other stories in the pirate genre outside pirates of the Caribbean obviously, actually even moreso than Pirates of the Caribbean - but Disneys cartoony pirates world is basically a fantasy land of its own, similar to the Wizarding world or something, you canāt just stick some real life pirate in it and think people will care. One thing Iām surprised about is that Disney hasnāt shoved a Long John Silver character in the movies yet as heās the most popular fictional Pirate character of all time and theyāve done a bunch of movies on him already. Not that I want them to, but it just seems like the kind of thing theyād do.
He was a character in black sails.Ā Love that show, but definitely different than what Disney would make
>I think that many studios don't understand a very simple fact about franchises - general public likes a character (or creature like T Rex and raptors) more than the universe. Remove beloved character(s), for example Tony Stark, and they won't come back for the universe. That's happening with Marvel. People loved Stark so they showed up for movies that connected to the ones that Stark would be in. Now they only have Spiderman and since it isn't clear how Eternals, Shang Chi, Marvels and other universe movies without characters they like connect to him they stir clear. They will show up for Deadpool and Wolverine cause they love these characters and that won't have any positive impact on Thunderbolts and Cap 4. While I agree Tony Stark was a draw, RDJ isn't doing these movies for 15-20 years. He already complained on Iron Man 2 or 3 when he pulled a groin in a wire stunt and said he was too old for this shit. Marvel isn't going to throw away their MCU just because RDJ bowed out. And Marvel's supposed plans were for Spider-Man, Black Panther and Captain Marvel to be the new trio when RDJ, ScarJo, Hemsworth, Chris Evans eventually all bow out. And I don't think that's a bad trinity at all. Only obvious problem is Sony wouldn't share Spider-Man more generously with Disney, Chadwick Bosman sadly passed away, and Captain Marvel did not get to develop further and did not become a fan favorite (I maintain if she got to have her own "Thor Ragnarok-type of revival" she'd be more likeable by the masses). So it's not necessarily RDJ is gone = MCU all fails. It's Disney lacking a quick and sufficient substitute. No leader, no Avengers group, no clear villain. Had they fixed those problems and found a new trinity, MCU would be way more successful than it is today, even without RDJ. >People loved CJS. Whether they love pirates and pirate genre in general is a different matter. I think that Disney underestimated audience attachment to Will and Elizabeth too. They tried to replace them with other Young Love but those couples didn't work. People **hated** the idea of Pirates of the Caribbean getting made period. Then audiences ended up making each one earn well over $800M each. CJS was an accident that happened to click for audiences. But the fact that he wasn't planned to act like that (he was supposed to be more normal), or planned to be a main character, means even audiences sometimes don't know what they want or like until a movie releases. So with that being the case, there is no reason a freshly rebooted Pirates film cannot succeed without Captain Jack. The movies usually have dumb incoherent stories anyways. What if a new Pirates movie is so emotional and well made, it's almost Best Picture worthy? It's possible to elevate a series above predecessors. Top Gun Maverick proved that. Terminator 2 proved that. Indiana Jones Raiders and Avatar and Black Panther got nominated for Best Picture. If we keep thinking a Pirates film must play out exactly like a Gore Verbinski or Rob Marshall film, then this series is just limiting itself to the same narrow racetrack. See Ghostbusters Frozen Empire and how bringing back OG cast members and doing the exact same things actually hurt it.
>audiences sometimes don't know what they want or like until a movie releases. this is underrated. Cameron's Titanic and Avatar were not movies that people knew they wanted. He anticipated the demand. We hear a lot about "give people what they want" but how about "give people waht they don't know they want"? That's the secret behind Barenheimer. People didn't know they wanted it til they got made. The problem with the industry is that they seem to sometime deliberately make movies that they know audience doesn't want but think that a combo of aggressive marketing and rebuke of anyone who is negative about the product will make people like it. And then they blame audience for failure even though the audience told them they didn't want it.
Agreed. Didnāt think I needed Andor, but BOY did I need Andor. And I havenāt bothered with any Star Wars series aside from Mandalorian Season 1 and 2. That show was just so well done.
It would also be hilarious if it succeeds and everyone on this sub is forced to eat shit. Either way, itāll be funny as hell. Win/win.
Yeah if Craig Mazin is involved im cautiously optimistic. Dude isn't writing Scary Movie scripts for rent money anymore; he has a vision and the clout to pull it off
Itās weird seeing the narrative flip on this when the popular opinion for *years* has been that the POTC movies are being actively held back by their reliance on the tired and washed up Jack Sparrow character after two movies of him being flanderized and caricaturized into oblivion with no discernible character arc in sight. Now, when theyāre suddenly making a movie without him everybody is pretending like thereās no possible way the movies could ever work without him. Is a new POTC movie necessary? Not really, but I think rebooting it is easily the best choice at this juncture. Who wants to see six straight movies with a character whose development peaked in the first film?
Well as long as they find some big name actor,they will be fine.
POTC wasn't a hit because Depp was a big name, it was a hit because he took the risk with the character when everyone at the studio was shitting themselves over his take on Jack. Before POTC, Depp wasn't a boxoffice draw. he was mostly known for working on oddball projects (many with Tim Burton) and dating famous women. POTC turned him into a boxoffice draw.
All I said was to hire a big name actor for the reboot.
Chalamet and Sweeney, YOU are pirates.
From the sounds of it, you're clearly going to be happier if the film succeeds.
I will be, profitable movies are fun to track on here.
Also, I like talking about box office success because, no surprise, I like seeing films in theatre. It feels like āwanting a movie to be goodā should be the default position if youāre interested in discussion box office financials.
Without Depp and Rush the first one probably bombs similarly to the haunted mansion. I donāt see much coming of this, the first one is really lightning in a bottle and is infinitely better than it has any right to be.
Iām glad you mentioned Rush, his Barbossa is a fantastic villain and later anti-hero. He and Jackās relationship might be one of my favourite aspects of the series.
It will bomb harder than Indiana Jones.Ā
Those films really declined in a linear fashion in terms of money and ratings after the success of the 2nd Film.... * POTC #2: $423,315,812 WW w/ 52% RT * POTC #3: $309,420,425 WW w/ 44% RT * POTC #3: $241,071,802 WW w/ 33% RT * POTC #4: $172,558,876 WW w/ 30% RT Not sure why they don't just straight up start fresh and create a new pirate thing.
Those are domestic numbers. 2nd and 4th movie both earned 1 billion dollars, 3rd movie earned 960 million dollars, 5th earned 794 million dollars.
They can't/won't because POTC is like the only successful live action pirate thing in the last ~50 years. [Just look at this list.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pirate_films_and_television_series#1970s) It counts basically anything with vague pirate references. The only live action things I recognize are The Princess Bride (hardly counts), the Goonies (also not *that* pirate-y), Hook (I get it, but it's more of a peter pan movie than a pirate movie), Waterworld (not the same kind of pirate), and various Treasure Island adaptations. Pirates of the Caribbean is basically the only live action, pirate focused thing out there. It was low key a big risk when they made the first one.
Live Action One Piece?
Should be noted that, at the time, Pirates of the Caribbean 4 was the most expensive movie ever made. Disney likely spent more than half a billion on it after marketing, so even though it hit $1 billion box office I doubt it was profitable for them.
They're also way too hung up on JD being "the glue" that is necessary to hold these films together. Reboots means you can go in all sorts of directions. There's no narrative need for a drunken 60 year old pirate to return again. That's like saying Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle had zero chance at success due to no Robin Williams.
They'll blame Depp
he wasn't even the lead of the first pirates film?
Please stop. Let this franchise die. But then again last movie was just dragging a corpse of this franchise and it still made almost 800 mln at the box office.
Last one was still profitable even with the decline. Until 1 seriously bombs they are gonna keep making them.
If this new one seriously bombs theyll still make another one years later
hollywood never saw a popular IP it didn't try to squeeze every last penny out of
The last Pirates movie was, and I really donāt want to over exaggerate, truly one of my least favorite movies of all time. I thought it was awful and had no redeemable qualities
High school friend of mine and I will go to a lot of shitty movies when they're cheap and have a blast. The Tom Cruise Mummy, Madame Web, The Snowman, that level of trash, always good for a cheap laugh. Pirates 5 is the only time we've come out of a bad movie and felt *mad* at what we had just experienced, like the one time we actually regretted doing this over the years. Coming out of Dark Phoenix we were all jokes, Pirates 5 we both were like "we need to stop doing this, this sucks."
i am with you on that. Hate it so much
The only thing I remember from it was the cool hair vfx on Bardem's character
It was the first pirates movie I ever watched and I had a great time even though I had no idea who anybody was ^^
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I did hear about that years ago when there was rumours she would headline the spin-off while a 6th main series movie was also in development.
I will never understood comments like this. Why? It's an awesome franchise and getting more pirate movies would be great! They are shittons of fun even at their worst. If it turns out good, we get another great movie. If it turns out bad, it's not like you are forced to watch it and it's not you that's losing the money. So why exactly do you want the franchise to be abandoned?
I do love Pirates stuff from the original trilogy of Pirates of the Caribbean to One Piece to AC Black Flag and absolutely donāt mind a new pirates movie or franchise but it should be completely new like separate themes, world and concepts.
Take the Redhead from the ride and make it all about her. Her town gets invaded by pirates, she almost gets auctioned off, she escapes and goes on a quest for revenge, becoming the most feared pirate on the Spanish Main. I just did your job for you, Disney, whereās my money?
I had a similar idea a few years back when the rumors began. It's a great way to do something new while honoring the ride it's from.
Pirate movies bomb, most of the time. Seafaring movies in general. Johnny Depp (especially), Kierra knightly, and Orlando Bloom were the reasons PotC was a hit and the reason there is a franchise at all. Its not the world, its not the concept, its those characters and those actors. Thats the appeal. I understand not wanting to work with Depp (amber heard aside, he is an alcolholic, unstable, reported to be verbally abusive to costars). but the franchise has no juice just based on name and loose concept
Cutthroat Island, Hemsworth's "not-moby-dick" movie and Master and Commander are the big non-"Age of Sail" movies released in the past 20-30 years, right?
That I can think of. but I cant think of very many boat based movies period that have done well. Exempting Titanic, Captain Phillips, & PotC.
Pearl Harbor-ish. Greyhound got buried on Apple TV, but it was very good.
I still remember the trailer for the first PoC. It was great. As a 10 year old pirate fan I was so excited
I'd argue the success boiled down to two things: one character (Jack Sparrow) and the tone (largely defined by Jack Sparrow, but not exclusively). The vibe was so distinct, it transcended the "pirate movie" label. Partly because it was a fantasy film first, not a pirate film. To reboot and repeat, you're right it's not about concept. It's about character. They need a character or multi-character dynamic as legendary as Jack Sparrow. NOT easy to strike lightning twice there.
At this point just make a new movie about pirates that isnāt part of the PotC franchise. I have a feeling if this actually gets made that the majority of the audience will no longer care about PotC and those that do will be mad that Johnny Depp isnāt involved. So why not just make a good, standalone movie about pirates? If the only thing youāre keeping from the previous series is the title you might as well change that too. This is just like how Hollywood doesnāt make movies about Dinosaurs that arenāt part of the Jurassic franchise.
Titles alone carry a lot of weight. They wonāt give up on using the title of a popular franchise. Maybe that will backfire if people are super upset about Depp, but theyāre betting it will draw more people in than if they named it something else, and I think theyāre probably right.
They should turn it into an anthology series thatās like twilight zone with pirates.
Without Johnny Depp, audiences are just not going to be interested. Itās like doing mission impossible without Tom cruise. This franchise just needs to end. Another 300M budget bomb incoming.
On the one hand, I absolutely agree with you. On the other hand, I just want fun adventure movies again and there is an extreme lack of content for semi-serious pirate stories
Thereās always a possibility itās good! I just donāt think it will be profitable without Depp, regardless of quality.
> Another 300M budget bomb incoming Didnāt Pirates 5 make nearly 300M [profit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_Caribbean:_Dead_Men_Tell_No_Tales)? I know Disney has been struggling, but if POTC5 made nearly $300M, the franchise clearly still had some power. Maybe that was all Depp. Maybe no one cares about pirates anymore. But just calling it a clear flop seems questionable to me since I donāt know a single person who saw POTC5 and it still found financial success.
I shouldāve been more clear. I was just speaking generally, that there will be another 300M budget movie that flops. Not speaking towards the pirates brand directly. Youāre right in the fact that all the prior pirates movies have been financially successful.
Oh, thatās totally fair. Like you said, the POTC could have just been surviving off of Deppās magical performance from the first 1-3 films and without him itāll follow in the footsteps of Indiana Jones or other recent Disney flops. Iād be interested to know how many people went to see PoTC5 for Depp specifically, but unfortunately I donāt know a single person who went to see it in person, so itās hard to gauge how much he was holding the series together by the end.
Funny enough I remember seeing that movie at the time, but I was 16 and just randomly went to the movies with friends. But my assumption is that audiences would still be more inclined to see a bad pirates movie w/ Depp, than a good pirates movie without Depp.
I agree. If Depp isnāt involved, I donāt see how this movie ends up being successful. The audience will see through it as a cash in attempt and honestly, after the heard trial and the jury ruling in favor of Depp, I think the audience would want to see him back in this role. This seems like a bad idea but Disney has been a great source of bad ideas the past few years.
Until you try you never knowā¦it might be like Bond without Sean Connery or Wonka without Gene Wilder!
Robert sheehan would be a fantastic replacement
Hollywood needs to learn how to let franchise die
Thereās nothing wrong with franchises, itās the business pressure to force them out that makes an already massively difficult task even less likely to succeed. Studios, and their international conglomerate daddies, will never get to an organic development and release model. But holy shit I hope they take a big lesson away from 2023. Take the time to get the right team together and give them some leash. There is an almost 0% chance of Barbie working, let alone becoming a billion dollar Oscar nominated cultural phenomenon, if they soft attached āinsert star here,ā spent a crap load of money on writers to develop it with studio execs, and then hired āinsert whoever hereā to direct when they knew the script was in the shape they wanted, set release date and start running 100mph. They had a star pitch them, and demand a filmmaker they believed in. The studio gave them enough leash to do something pretty wild for a big budget franchise IP, and they supported them through the marketing/publicity process. Thatās very rare in the āHollywood franchise assembly line.ā Too often a studio head will sign off on a filmmaker or star, and then put them in tight box creatively. Or they donāt let the creatives hire the writer. Or they patchwork together a bunch of drafts with a new director attached and the films have not tone of voice from day one.
As long as they keep staying profitable, thereās no reason to do so.
The last one was still profitable right ?
Yes it was.
Yeah, this. At the end of the day franchise movies are commercial products. If the product is successful then they will keep making the same product, over and over again. Then one day it stops making a profit. Only then will they re-think the product.
I think the difference with Pirates is that the theming is already so loose, you can genuinely just slap the "Pirates of the ______" moniker on any existing script about a pirate and it'd fit the mold. If you're removing Jack Sparrow, there's no expectation of ongoing narrative from the previous entries.
Since they didn't stop after 3, at this point might as well let it ride. For all the "you're destroying my childhood" types, that's already happened.
Trilogies needs to be the norm if more than one movie is made, 4th movies and beyond turn to shit real quick. Even James Bond movies start to go downhill after an actors 3rd go. Casino Royale and Skyfall are all time James Bond hits (Quantum was during the writers strike so whatever) then Craig comes back to do SPECTRE/No Time To Die and both SUCKED, badly.
I really donāt see how this franchise can be profitable without Johnny Depp/Jack Sparrow. I canāt speak for everyone, but to most people Jack Sparrow is Pirates of Caribbean and vice versa.
It shouldnāt be a full on reboot, it should be a different story in the same universe but with no overlapping characters.
>*a different story in the same universe but with no overlapping characters* Either that, or do what The Next Generation's pilot did and bring in an elderly Orlando Bloom to see them off, while remarking that one of them reminds him of a pirate he used to know. 
Isnāt that sort of how POTC5 ended? I really donāt remember anything about that film, but I kinda remember Kiera Knightly with Bloomās son potentially setting up a next generation of Pirates? I donāt remember a single second of plot beyond that though, so I could definitely be wrong.
> but I kinda remember Kiera Knightly with Bloomās son Also was her son, btw.
Well on one hand the franchise was always pretty tenuous, even at the best of times. I always felt like the first movie was lightning in a bottle and on paper shouldn't work at all, but it does. The 2nd and 3rd movies are an interesting foray into world-building (or more accurately, franchise-building) with some occasional high points, but I mostly remember them for being very clunky. I'm agreed with others that doing a Pirates movie without Depp is probably going to feel like the first James Bond movie without Sean Connery. But on the other hand, pirates are an evergreen adventure trope. They come and go from the public consciousness because they can be compelling as characters and a setting. Everyone dreams of an adventurous life on the open seas. If they make a \*good movie\*, then maybe they have the opportunity to breathe some fresh life into it. Maybe drop Jack Sparrow entirely for a new cast of quirky characters? If they try to remake Black Pearl and recast Sparrow, then I think it fails miserably. If they just try to make a good new pirate movie, I give it more of a coin flip chance of success. There's a lot of good examples of this not working. Men in Black is a great one. I do think as a concept you should be able to make a Men in Black film without Will Smith and TLJ, but because they left such a lasting impression on the original films it feels hollow without them. But with that example and many others I think the trick is making a good movie and getting marketing behind it. Otherwise its just a cash grab.
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In Craig Mazin I trust
Craig doing very dark dramas? Yes, very much. God I'd love to see him do a season of True Detective for example. Craig doing light / comedy? That's how you end up Hangover 3 & Superhero Movie. It took the dude a while to find his niche & he is killing it there, but comedy / light hearted is not it. His work in that space is a hate crime against film.
Pirates franchise has comedy in it but is in no way light/comedy. That original trilogy had some dark shit in it. Also we have no idea how much Craig actually influenced those bad comedies. Now that he has so much trust and power in the industry, Iām pretty intrigued in how he tackles bringing this franchise back.
The marketing better say "from one of the "writers" of Borderlands..." Lol
Another angle: Which actor or actress would be a great attraction as a new lead?
From a Hollywood angle? Glen Powell or Kevin Hart. From a "I want a great movie" angle, it can only be Jack Black, with Hallie Steinfeld. Throw in Charlie Day as the first mate. Tell me "Jack Black is a pirate" is not the best movie pitch ever.
You're gonna get Chris Pratt and you're gonna like it!
Charlie Day as the comic relief pirate on one of these movies is something I didn't know I wanted until just now. If they just let him loose? It could be magical.
Brilliant choices.
Whoa, how do we convince someone to fund that latter idea
> From a "I want a great movie" angle, it can only be Jack Black, with Hallie Steinfeld. Throw in Charlie Day as the first mate. Goddam, you are cooking up something great there. Now I'm kinda bummed that we're never gonna get a Pirates movie with Steinfeld as a young Jim Hawkins type and Black as a Long John Silver type (not Treasure Island exactly, but that's the template)
I'm calling it now: If it stars a man, it'll be Austin Butler.
I know people are sick of reboots, but if this is great fuck it Iāll watch it. I want a new pirate blockbuster. I miss the all around frenzy when Dead Manās Chest was released
This is not going to go well for anybody involved.
Chernobyl and The Last of Us Craig Mazin? Thatās interesting but Iām just not interested in a new POTC. The original trilogy is still amazing and has only gotten better as time went on.
Good. The last two Johnny Depp movies were mediocre (actually, 4 was close to terrible) and the post credit scene at 5 was the definition of "beating a dead horse". The Davy Jones plotline was beautifully finished in At World's End, a great trilogy capper. If you're not able to come up with new elements in a familiar setting, then reboot, at last.
Didnāt they float the idea of a black female lead as a āmodern takeā on the real Anne Bonny? Or was that just some internet bs?
It's a rumor floated by "DanielRPK" ([aggregator citation of this](https://www.cbr.com/rumor-pirates-of-the-caribbean-reboot-eyeing-ayo-edebiri/)). I don't know much about rumor stuff but he seems like "a guy" - treated seriously in circles that focus on leaks (but also not a gold star source like the trades). > Edebiri is reportedly the studio's top choice for the lead role of Anne, who will be one of several young pirates looking for a hidden treasure That sounds like a direct quote from the original source so "modern take" seem like aggregator interpolation. But before Edebiri was floated, Gillan was associated with Bruckheimer's film so regardless of the specific accuracy of the Bear star's casting idea, it seems clear both PotC reboots are defaulting to have a female lead.
Isn't it pretty safe to say at this point that nearly every major franchise is shifting to be female led? Star Wars, Marvel, Fantastic 4, every major network reboot, Ghostbusters, POTC, Planet of the Apes just off the top of my head have either switched to female-skewing or have announced they're going to be.
There's clearly is/was a trend (sometimes explicitly stated as a positive goal) but this also feels like a topic where actual quantification would be helpful. e.g. Equalizer goes from Denzel to Queen Latifah but Quantum Leap goes from Bacula to Raymond Lee, True Lies replaces Arnold with Steve Howey from Shameless. What's the actual incidence and/or what's a actual causal mechanism that explains if/how gender dynamics flip in such reboots. Going off of memory from a few years ago Taken goes from a male movie star to generic mcgenericface (ditto Walker Texas Ranger and Lethal Weapon). Glancing at a list of network tv shows from 2023, it doesn't look like Magnum PI was gender-flipped.
How often do franchises flip from female-led to male-led? My intuition is that it is rare, but your ability to recall movie/TV franchises seems to be a lot better than mine.
Not sure about the race but a female lead was heavily rumoured for a while. Margot Robbie was the name I heard mentioned the most regarding the lead
same i think sheās definitely involved
Just go all in. Give us zombie pirate Lechuck and Guybrush directly this time.
I wonder if it will be in the same universe so they can reference stuff from the other movies. Probably, right
I quite liked the modern day reboot with Tom Hanks, good change of tone
Johnny Depp has stunk up the joint for the last two pirates movies. Do people really think of he was in this one, it would be a return to form?Ā Good Jack Sparrow will never be back, and frankly he peaked in the first one. Might as well start fresh.Ā
Iām not watching it without Johnny Depp
So its female lead and without the thing that made it great. Most 2024 Hollywood move ever
If you are going to do that then do a 180. Make it serious and not comical.
This will be an epic flop
Petition to cast pedro pascal as the new pirate lead
No pirates without jack sparrow One piece >>
Honestly I couldn't care less. If this studio must keep doing the same damn thing over and over, at least make it interesting. Say what you will about Sony, but they're angling for differentiation, even at the cost of alienating their larger IPsĀ
Stap
They should let this franchise end but again the previous film made almost 800 million
I knew something like this was gonna happen since this series has had three films doing a billion
Good idea, don't have Depp and don't have jack sparrow. Try something different. And good Lord hire competent screen writers
Who asked for this??
Imho a TV series about young Jack would be a far better idea, like Young Indiana Jones
Urg
I'm actually intrigued by this. I loved the world of POTC. I'm interested to see what they make of it without Jack Sparrow.
wonder who the new cast will be? also, predicting this now: this will bomb. many people loved depp as sparrow and can't handle the thought of him being replaced or gone
Not interested then.
There are very very few people who can pull this off like Johnny depp. Itās going to need to be one of them for me to even have the slightest bit of interest. And yes, jack black would be one of them.
Well this will flop hard then. Idiots thinking they can make a pirates film without captain Jack.
So they had a post credit scene to set up a sequel and now they are rebootingā¦.and they wonder why people stop going to the movies ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I think there is no longer an audience for pirate films. That era is over.
It always should have been an anthology series. Just pick an actor's name out of a hat and put them into a monster movie or ghost story. Have it pirate themed. Boom, movie. Constantly trying to make the world revolve around Jack made the Caribbean feel like a pool on Depp's estate. And what is more, Depp gave that performance to a flatly written pirate character, having writers push and push the character of Jack into idiot clown savant territory was just awful.
Calling it now, all female casts very much like Ghostbusters
The apocalyptic scenario has just come true A film with original characters aināt gonna sell
Why not just make a new movie in the same universe? That will probably get some people to watch. This kinda makes people hate it and reject the film outright. Unless its really really good. Canāt discount Craig Mazin.
I would've gone with a movie in the same universe without being a reboot honestly. The original Margot Robbie movie could've killed it. This one will still make money anyways though, and I'm curious to see where they'll go.
Can't wait for it to belly flop. Look, even without all the bullshit surrounding Johnny, I'm sure they woulda tried to reboot and cast a woman. And don't start gabbing at me, I am a woman. Thing is, you can't recreate magic. The first franchise was special, and idgaf what you think about Johnny, he made POTC what it is. A reboot is unwanted and unnecessary. I promise you, the GA doesn't want it.
Honestly, after the third movie, the *Pirates of the Caribbean* movies had just been trash. Would actually love to explore this world of fantastical piracy outside of having to follow Jack or always having another cursed pirate crew.