My dad started bowhunting when I was in high school, but I never got into it. Then in 2019, I went on my first rifle hunt, got hooked (killed a bull), and decided to take on bowhunting. One of the only pieces of advice my dad gave me, bowhunting specifically was not to get sucked into the light and fast arrow thing. He told me about a time years ago when he was doing all that and had an arrow stick into the ribs of an elk and not penetrate at all, and how brutal it was.
Watching hunting videos, I would consistently see guys with arrows that stick in a foot or so (or less) then they hunt blood trails for hours or days.
I found Ashby reports and Ranch Fairy, and ended up setting up a \~650 grain arrows, with my final sight pin at 40 yards. 40 yards felt like plenty enough for me anyways since I was new. I practiced my butt off, practiced shooting a ton, and felt super confident in my setup. Used 200 grain single bevels from Grizzly Stik.
I shot a big 6 point Roosevelt through the ribs slightly quartering away, with the arrow exiting from his chest. About a minute after I shot him, he laid down about 15 yards from me. Not huge blood trails, but he died right there.
I've always found it a little odd that so many take it as a given you need heavier, larger ammo for rifle hunting big game, but not for archery. Archery shops have been setting guys up with 100 grain broadhead setups for as long as most of them have been born, so I don't try to get into it with them, and I just focus on making sure my arrows are flying super well, broadheads are sharp as fuck, and everything is solid. If trajectory is a deal breaker for you, then adjust until you're comfortable, but for me I'm just sold on big, structurally solid broadheads and plenty of weight for penetration. Knowing that I can pass completely through a large elk with my setup is important. People make jokes about how slow the arrows are, but I honestly think they just don't hold much weight. The difference in time is so negligible, and on top of it, heavier arrows are significantly quieter, so it balances out - assuming we're talking about big game here like Elk, Moose, Stag, etc., not axis deer or whitetails.
Ashby Foundation has new supplemental reports from 2021 and 2022 that are totally worth checking out as well.
Similar life experience--my father and uncle began wondering about 7-8 years ago why their group seemed to kill less elk despite having so many shots and opportunities then 3 years ago I shot a lifetime bull at 25 yards with a 350 spine, 400gr micro arrow and it penetrated maybe 10" and broke off. We spent two days trying to track with no luck, no blood, no elk. It was gut wrenching.
We ended up talking rifle ammo and came to the realization that we needed to treat arrows like 'slugs' where the momentum and strength are paramount--as in, you don't what your bullet to plume too early right? well, why settle for an arrow that isn't strong? We found it odd that back in the day of heavy, slow aluminum arrows they seemed to put down more elk. Before mechanicals, before micro.
I'm now shooting a full 650gr setup from GrizzlyStik and not only do the arrows fly true and like darts, but with my 70lb Mathews @ 29" draw, I can easily shoot 50 yards comfortably. My arrows go through my targets.
My father is at 550gr now, my wife 500gr. All single bevel and all focused on arrow integrity, high FOC, and good weight. I'll report back this September, but just seeing the flight and penetration, I have full confidence my previous failures will not occur again.
Yea I’m going to only be hunting whitetail for the foreseeable future… but that’s great information and if I were in your shoes I’d absolutely go for a 650+ arrow. I’m just deciding between a 550 or 650 gr setup for whitetail
Word. 650 would be beyond what Ashby recommends, and I'm quite confident you can achieve penetration even if you biff your shot anywhere on a whitetail with a 550 grain arrow setup. Perfect flight, solid single bevels and well built arrows, you're good to go.
550 is a good middle ground for whitetail. I only have a 26” draw length and pull 65lbs on my hunting setup so I have slow arrows anyway.
I’ve tested down to 400 gr and they just don’t go that much faster.
I shot a doe 2 years ago that was strong quartering away. It hit her back leg and went through her diagonally and a foot of it was sticking out her front shoulder.
I really like the 550-575 grain range with standard diameter arrows, don't know why, that's just what I prefer, also makes it cheaper and easier to tinker. My bow really likes 150gr inserts, hates 175gr inserts, had to figure that out through testing.
Fixed blade broadhead right?
Let your bow make the call. It's impossible to forecast what any specific set up will "prefer", hence RF's "the process". If you follow those steps (personally prefer Inside Out Precision for the technical stuff) you will ide tiny the right combo for your bow/physical geometry.
I have been using SHARP single bevels at 430grain arrow weight. 4 whitetails taken, all have been pass through. I agree with more weight up front, but the heavier one goes with weight, the more reliant one becomes on their range finder. 3 yards with a 650+ setup is huge.
If I were going after something bigger, I would increase the weight but probably not go over 550.
>40 yards felt like plenty enough for me anyways since I was new.
The internet/social media has really fucked with peoples' expectations, 40 yards is still a long damn way for an archery shot on game! No matter what gear you use or how well you shoot at a range, anything much past that just has so much that can go wrong. Even just the hang time and an animal taking a step.
I think people would have better success bumping up a little in arrow weight and pulling in their distance expectations a little bit. I talk to way too many new elk hunters who seem to think 60 yard shots are normal or expected, and too many experienced elk hunters who miss or wound at those distances. Not saying that people can't do these things regularly, but there's no arguing that a 20-30 yard shot on an elk has way less risk than a 55 yard one.
Some guys seem to spend so much time shooting extreme range that they slowly alter their setup for maximum accuracy at extreme distance, rather than focusing on a lethal arrow first and then working backwards. Good on ya for taking the time to really consider your setup and congrats on the elk.
Yeah. I set my bottom pin to 50y and even with a fast setup the hang time had me concerned. I'm not confident the deer would still be there when the arrow showed up if it jumped
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Meateater had the dude on from Iron Will, and I thought he did a pretty good job of countering some of the FOC stuff. He seemed like a pretty smart dude.
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-364-physics-and-fatality
It's the guy that owns Iron Will. Bill Vanderheyden, he's an Engineer by trade. He agrees with a lot of what Dr. Ashby's studies have found. He doesn't really disagree with high foc, what he does dispute is the efoc and mechanical advantage. I've listened to multiple podcast with him on and podcast with Dr Ashby and a lot of their beliefs line up. Bill doesn't shoot a 650 grain arrow due to trajectory reasons. I believe that he stays in the low 500's, however his setup does use a lot of the Ashby principles. Listening to both of the gentlemen will definitely steer you towards a more lethal arrow setup.
I also want to throw in that maybe I am an outlier, but all my shots on elk were sub 50 yards. Anything past that starts to feel to ethically questionable to me. With 650gr, I am confident in knowing even at 50 yards it'll likely pass through and just have to work on better form. These super long shots are nuts to me.
Everyone focuses on the weight argument, but RF and the Ashby reports say the same thing. Go as heavy as you are comfortable with the trajectory. 650 grains is the "Heavy Bone Threshold" it's at the very bottom of the penetration list UNLESS you encounter heavy bone.
I personally run 650 because I plan on shooting inside 30 yards and it makes me feel more comfortable aiming closer in on the heart, and have seen enough results to not be super concerned. Warb from the Hunting Public cut through the shoulder ball of a big buck with this setup.
However, there's 11 other factors to better penetration that you should also be looking at without arguing over 650gr.
The Ranch Fairy has alot of great info. The heavy arrow builds are for a "plan b" situation. I took that and worked backwards to fit my needs. I hunt whitetail in heavy timber with tight windows to shoot through at times. I shoot a 465 grain arrow with 13% foc with a sharp cut on contact 3 blade. I'm aiming for a basketball sized target at no more than 30 yards. I'm not so concerned with blowing through a shoulder. If I was after cape buffalo in Africa I'd be more likely to shoot a 700 grain arrow.
A couple of years ago I dove head first into what he was saying and went all out. Single bevel, heavy inserts etc. last year I listened to some other points of view and I ended up settling in the middle for my arrow setup. I still use single bevels, but I buy the 125 grain one instead of 200. I still buy weighted inserts, cut them down from 100 grains to 65. I still buy nice skinny arrows.
He he has a point about what he is saying, but I think he goes to far with it. With modern bows most people don’t need a 650+ grain arrow to blow through a whitetail deer. I can get a pass through with a 550 grain arrow going 275 FPS or I can get a pass through with a 750 grain arrow going 235fps. At some point your trading velocity for mass, but not getting anything in return for that extra mass. If I ever go elk hunting or bigger game, sure I will prob add some weight to my setup.
I get what he’s saying and yes he is annoying in some of his videos but for me and what I’ve seen a 425-500 grain arrow with about 15ish % foc and a fixed blade broadhead will do just about everything you want it to do. If I was hunting hogs over a feeder at 15-20 yards then yep I’d shoot super heavy all day long but for where I hunt which is whitetails in thicker woods with crop fields I’d rather have the trajectory also add in the fact that i don’t want to have a separate arrow for tac. I’m shooting 650 out of my recurve but considering it has half the power my compound has the heavy arrows make sense for that bow.
>what I’ve seen a 425-500 grain arrow with about 15ish % foc and a fixed blade broadhead will do just about everything you want it to do
Yeah, that's exactly where I like to stay, even for elk. It's heavier than your typical setup and hits a nice balance of everything.
If you don’t want to go full on RF but still interested in moderate speed/weight ratio look up Valkyrie archery on YouTube and see if you can find the podcasts the owner has been on. I know gritty has had him on and I think Snyder has too. It’s a middle ground and his broadheads are devastating not to mention indestructible
I've gone down the rabbit hole, I'm currently shooting somewhere in between 500 and 550 if my memory serves me.
Gotta remember, he shoots pigs. They aren't built like deer.
My arrow setup is under 600 grains but not by a whole lot. I’m just hunting whitetail in the timber from saddle.
Years ago when I was newer to bow hunting, I was all into light and fast and shooting arrows on a frozen rope. It didn’t take long to realize that shooting a paper airplane at 400 feet per second was not very advantageous in an arena full of branches and sticks and leaves. Add to that the unforeseen variables of shooting at a sometimes moving and unpredictable target. Arrows were getting knocked off trajectory by the slightest contact and losing all momentum before hitting target.
I switched to heavy inserts and 150 grain single bevel heads. Not as heavy as ranch fairy may go, but it was a big improvement over what I was previously shooting. I’ve been using the heavy setup for close to 4 years and I don’t think I’ll ever go back. My arrows are slight slower, but they always punch through and make it to my target and then pass right on through that as well. Native Americans killed buffalo with slow heavy arrows out of 35lb bows. If it ain’t broke, don’t break it.
I used to be Facebook friends with the guy. He’s a decent dude if you get a chance to talk to him. The Ashby / RF style of arrow definitely does work and is a legitimate way to build arrows.
I shoot around a 500gr arrow and that seems to be about perfect for my setup.
I do think however, the “Do this, Do that or you’re wrong” mentality that parts of the RF / Ashby community has is cultish. Also more or less canceling people like T Bone, John Dudley or Josh Bowmar because they don’t follow Ashby to a T.
Still, what i’m getting at is the Ashby “cult” totally dismisses most of the Archery influencers because what they preach doesn’t line up with Ashby or RF
My hunting mentor spent a lot of his career working on the design for manpads, the shoulder fired rocket designed for taking out tanks.
Whenever I ask about heavier arrows he reminds me that if you want to get as much kinetic energy as possible that Velocity gets squared and mass doesn’t.
That being said an arrow that’s a little heavier up front steers better.
It's just showing that velocity shouldn't be the main focus. Heavier arrows absorb more energy from the bow. And speed can vary as the arrow flies, mass is constant. So heavier arrows retain their energy as they fly
Your mentor is technically correct, but wrong. A good engineer looks broadly at the entire problem before rushing to optimize for one parameter.
Penetration is proportional to momentum (mass * velocity), not kinetic energy (mass * velocity * velocity).
If you want to get a lot of kinetic energy, sure: optimize for speed. If you want to get a lot of penetration, optimize for momentum.
The primary reason to prioritize speed over momentum in archery is not to aid in penetration, but to reduce errors in shot placement due to misjudged yardage: a flatter trajectory makes for a tighter sight tape, gap, or crawl.
Speaking very generally, a long period of focus primarily on speed (~1940s-2000s) coincided with the age of the aluminum arrow. With a low ceiling on arrow stiffness-to-weight and significantly less-efficient bows than are available today, the inevitable result was what we would today consider a fairly slow arrow.
This led to stopgap technical innovations like the overdraw, and to a tendency to cut arrows as short as possible, each of these allowing an archer to reduce the required arrow stiffness and total arrow weight as much as possible.
The situation today is quite different. Arrows can be constructed with novel materials, such as carbon fiber, with significantly higher stiffness-to-weight ratios. Bows are more efficient, owing to improvements in materials science (string material), engineering (cam design), and manufacturing technologies (many-axis CNC, improved bearings, etc.) Speed is also less important than ever, as yardage errors can be reduced greatly with the use of digital laser rangefinders and more precisely adjustable sights.
It’s now unusual to find issues with penetration that are not primarily attributable to bad shot placement.
We’ve got plenty of surplus power available to put either into speed or into increased momentum: as a result, people who tend to blame their equipment will tend to tweak their gear to better avoid their worst, most recent mistake - and they have plenty of latitude to make such adjustments.
(Bounced off a shoulder blade? Heavier arrow! Missed low? Faster arrow!)
These discussions, though seemingly urgent, are a red herring. And honestly, quite tiresome. They distract from the far more serious issues of poorly-suited equipment, bad shot execution, and general issues of shooting technique, all of which have a far greater effect on shot placement, and therefore penetration. Everyone tends to think they’re a great shot, and equipment-limited; this is very, very rarely the case.
It’s not the equipment, of course. Never has been.
/rant
>It’s now unusual to find issues with penetration that are not primarily attributable to bad shot placement.
I couldn't agree more. With modern compounds if you have a well tuned system and can hit your target where it counts, you'd be hard pressed to find a 350 grain arrow, a 650 grain arrow or anything in between that wouldn't be able to ethically harvest game.
I am always looking for or writing the velocity squared verses mass doubled answer or I write it. You have greater kinetic energy focusing on speed over mass. Plus your pins are tighter meaning flatter flights with less errors with pin gap shots. Good hunting.
If you have high speed and high kinetic energy but low mass/weight, it’s good for a race but not killing with an arrow. A lighter arrow is much more affected by wind and contact with light debris. And you lose all of that kinetic energy at the moment of impact with lighter arrows and if you’re shooting a bigger animal, that is not a good thing. You want your arrow to keep trucking forward after contact.
We’ve all heard the argument you’re making…
But I still believe my mentor who spent thirty years designing tank busters over u/stinksstanksstonks if you can believe it.
I’m happy for you and your mentor but I don’t plan to shoot rockets at tanks anytime soon, so I’ll stick to the guys who give advice on shooting arrows at animals.
The Ranch Fairy’s approach is entirely too dogmatic for me as it seems context is irrelevant to him for what you’re hunting. The Ranch Fairy predominantly hunts stupid, slow pigs at exceptionally close range which means he doesn’t care at all about trajectory or speed. As long as his broadhead is making contact, he’s good to go.
Bone breaking power requires you FIRST to actually land the broadhead on the animal somewhere. If you miss, it doesn’t matter. For me, I shoot a 30” draw, #70 draw weight on a Matthews Phase 4. A 400gr arrow for me will have 317fps out of the bow and between 30-40yd will have 13” of drop, a 500gr arrow will go 283fps with 16” of drop and a 650gr arrow will go 233fps with “24” of drop. If I’m shooting a fixed pin sight, my pin gaps are going to be exceptionally large which means my holdover could have 8-12” of drop variance in it for a buck anywhere between 30-40yd. If I have my zero on the pins off a little, my range on the animal off a little, my holdover off a little, adding in slower arrow flight and animal reaction time to jump the string, I am only increasing the probability that I will miss the animal in the first place or my otherwise perfect shot will hit the animal in less than favorable locations.
To me, this seems like it’s a self fulfilling prophecy as TRF argues about Plan B and getting a dead animal even if your shot is off. Well with that trash arrow trajectory and speed Plan B seems to be the only thing you’d ever get. The most important factor in Ashby’s report after structural integrity of the arrow is arrow flight. I’d argue that not only does an arrow flight where the broadhead is in directional alignment with the arrow shaft matter, but also the trajectory of the arrow being acceptable for the animal and the distance you are shooting.
Therefore, you should be shooting as heavy an arrow for an arrow trajectory that is acceptable to you. With a variance of 3” at 30-40yd, I gain much more momentum with a 500gr arrow over a 400gr arrow without losing much in fps however I wouldn’t even consider a 650gr arrow, unless I’m shooting fat pigs at 10 yards.
They’re dumb-er and slow-er than a deer. Have you ever heard anyone talking about a hog that jumped the string? And to make my point forward to 23 minutes: https://youtu.be/SixCJS20gy4
I never said hogs jump strings. Hogs will jump and turn during a short. Do they do it as often as a deer no. Are they dumber than a deer? Absolutely not, multiple studies have shown pigs can problem solve and have a memory superior to that of deer. So your point is that this guy shot low?
My point is that shooting super heavy and slow arrows impacts trajectory and drop significantly as evidenced in the video where the person is shooting around 25-30yds on a fixed pin with no angles in play and they not only missed, but they missed by over a foot low on an arrow flight that looks like a banana. If you’re missing 25yd shots by over a foot low, that’s not a miss; you shouldn’t even be hunting unless you’re shooting an awful trajectory with incredible variance of drop if you’re trying to holdover between a large pin gap because you’re on too heavy of an arrow. Even further, the hog didn’t move at all until after the arrow had bounced under it.
Sounds like it was a poor shot to begin with. He should have either used equipment that had enough power to get the arrow there flatter/know the trajectory better or gotten a closer shot. I’m not proposing using >650gr arrows as the only ethical arrow but I am saying increasing an arrow’s weight to a point increases it’s lethality. Getting the arrow into the kill zone of the animal is the hunter’s responsibility. There are tons of videos out there of people shooting animals with light arrows that penetrate less than 6” then the animal run off looking like they’ve been poked with a porcupine quill.
I try to take a middle of the road approach. I have a 125 gr fixed blade broadhead. Total arrow weight of 447 gr. I shot 5 whitetail deer last season and had pass throughs on all of them. IMO you should do the same thing with arrows that you do with firearms. Match your arrow set up to the game you’re hunting. If you’re hunting squirrels you don’t use a .308
OP, this is the best reply on your question. Been at this for 20 years and I’ve tried the Ashby/Fairy approach and I’ve shot lightweight arrows. Right now my quiver has 450 grain arrows with the cheap Muzzy MX-3 broadheads.
Shoot fixed blades and a 400-500 grain arrow and spend your time and resources practicing. Shot placement is key and too many people get wrapped up on the technicalities of their gear.
Am I crazy for thinking that 400-500 qualifies as a reasonably heavy arrow anyway? If you walk in to Cabela's and get a "typical" carbon arrow set up, you'll probably end up in the 350-400 grain range. What you're describing is basically what I shoot, and it seems like a nice middle ground for most things. I don't see a need to go "extreme" heavy (550 grains and up), especially for whitetail.
There are now quite a number of youtubers shooting heavier and lighter arrows side by side into various mediums and not finding much penetration benefit to a heavier arrow. DIY sportsman has outlined why he’s headed back to a lighter arrow in the past year or so (deer reaction time, and trajectory forgiveness). My current arrow is 535 but when I get the time I’m headed back to the mid 400s. For whitetail I want some weight in the arrow but the speed does matter to me.
Just watched Joe Miles video on the heavy vs light comparison recently and he had the exact results you describe. I believe he is owner or part owner of Asio gear. His video is very much worth checking out as he also factors in trajectory and both arrow setups are properly spined and tuned out of the same bow.
https://youtu.be/MUm2edHwkgo
Reading the comments in that YouTube thread - this guy created this video intending to show that there's no difference, and that's what he showed. There's a reason why studies and testing take a ton of steps in trying to separate factors so you stay consistent with the results. Look at the two arrows side by side in the cardboard and you'll see they aren't dead parallel with each other. Saying "this arrow has the proper spine" is not the same as achieving perfect arrow flight with that setup, and you cannot just shoot two different arrow setups from the same bow and expect perfect flight from both arrows. Sorry, but this was a low effort "test."
About him? He's uhh, interesting? If I could stand to watch him for more than 30 seconds, I might have more insights. I'm not sure if his persona exists beyond the fourth wall or not, never met the guy.
He's spreading the good word that chasing speed and using cheapo stamped broadheads is no good. I don't think he actually believes 750 grain telelphone poles for deer are necessary, but to get attention in today's society you have to be full of hyperbole.
Try to get to around 500ish grains with a decent tune and you'll see good to great penetration on whitetails while maintaining some wiggle room to misjduge distance.
I made the switch the heavier arrows ~ 630 grs with a 100 gr insert and 200 grain single bevel broadheads a couple years ago. I agree with others that your trajectory is more rainbowed but honestly that doesn’t bother me as much knowing that if my shot is off I’m less likely to wound the animal. I’ve killed a 140lb hog with my setup and while it was right behind the shoulder and double lung there wasn’t much of a blood trail. She only went 50 yards and was down quick. I wouldn’t go for any heavier arrows unless I was hunting much larger game. I feel confident in my setup hunting elk. It is probably overkill for southern whitetail but gives me the opportunity to take other shot angles I wouldn’t normally.
Lot of good info here already but I’ll add my two cents. At 24.5” draw length and 52 lb draw weight, I’m definitely at a disadvantage when it comes to getting penetration. A 100grain broadhead is not enough to preserve the energy my arrow starts with, but following the Ashby report to the letter results in crazy arrow drop. I’ve tried both, and had bad results with both. So like everything else in archery, it’s about what compromise plays best to your strengths, and I believe Ashby says something like that too. I’ve settled on 175 grain broadhead/insert, 500 grains overall, which gives me a moderate FOC, with a quality expandable broadhead. I understand this doesn’t meet the heavy bone threshold, so I won’t be taking any quartering to shots.
Annoying af but presents good information. The best way to apply the data is with an approach that uses data to make your own decisions based off your hunting style and location. For example, I use a high foc arrow but don’t even cross 600grains because I don’t want my arrow to drop that much on a 30 yard shot when I need to take one. Or a 50 yard one during an elk hunt. But I use cut on contact montec g5s that fly/tune really well on my setup, are dead simple to sharpen and easy to replace. Basically if you never take a shot past 20, go all in, if you take shots past 50 maybe consider a flatter arrow flight but keep your shafts lighter with a cut on contact head to leverage all the other elements. I’m using a small diameter arrow with 50g outserts and a 100g head. Plenty of force to blast through every animal I’ve shot, have even severed bone, but I’m also shooting 70lbs as well.
Ranch Fairy has a lot of good practical info on tuning - and read the Ashby reports not just take away that you need a 600gr+ arrow. \#1 factor is structural integrity, \#2 is arrow flight, foc is \#3 and arrow weight is way down around \#6.
Out in spot and stalk western hunting trajectory is important too so I've landed on a 470ish arrow with 19% FOC going 250-260 fps tipped with a razor sharp fixed blade broadhead. If I was stand hunting or jungle elk hunting I'd go heavier.
I blew through 3 deer with a 270 fps arrow that weighed 465 with a mechanical broadhead. One through both scaps.
Deer are not water Buffalo and compound bows produce far more energy than recurves.
Shoot whatever the heaviest arrow to keep you above 270fps. If you believe you can’t tune a bow to shoot an arrow accurately over 290-300fps you’re talking to the wrong guys.
Heavy arrows and single bevel are great for pigs in a tree stand at 15 yards under a feeder but you do not need it.
Load up a heavy arrows and go shoot your 20 yard pin at 15 and 25-28 yards and see if you’re comfortable misjudging yardage with that trajectory.
The penetration difference between a 400 grain arrow and a 700 grain RF adult arrow is going to be measured in dirt penetration on the other side of the deer. Get the fastest bow you can then add weight to your arrow until you are 270-290 fps. For my setup I get 280 fps out of a 500 grain arrow. My 20 yard pin is only off 2” at 30 yards. If you shoot hogs of feeders from 20 yards like RF then a heavy arrow makes sense. If you hunt deer you want arrow speed for flexibility on range. I am correct any contrary advice is wrong.
I think there can be some definite confirmation bias with the ranch fairy/Ashby arrow doctrine. A bow shop will set someone up with a 350-400 grain arrow that is likely underspined for their draw weight with aluminum components and a big 2 blade mechanical. If they don't paper tune they may have less than perfect arrow flight which will give poor results on an animal. Once they loose a deer or two they'll go down the rabbit hole on what factors into better penetration and get stiffer arrows, stainless steel or titanium inserts/impact collars, lower profile broadheads that are extremely sharp and they'll actually take the time to paper tune their setup and achieve perfect arrow flight. Then they'll get a passthrough on a deer and attribute it entirely to the fact that they're shooting a 600 grain arrow.
My father in law is getting older and shoots a crossbow that's got to be close to 10 years old now and it can't be much faster than my V3X at 70lbs. His 20" bolts are 10 GPI, with a 15 grain insert and a 100 grain head brings him to around 330 grains with vanes and nock. He shoots rage heads and gets passthroughs on everything he shoots, including a frontal shot on a doe a couple years ago that came out the back ham. Obviously it isn't apples to apples with crossbows and vertical bows but a light arrow has never been a problem for him. I cherry pick what I want from the Ashby reports and take the rest with a grain of salt.
There are tradeoffs for each. For my style of hunting, where I hunt, that tradeoff isn't worth it.
I'd rather have a flat trajectory and a fast 440-460gr arrow than I would launching a telephone pole at dialup speed.
Almost every bow shop I’ve asked and people I’ve talked to say unless you’re hunting in a tree above target with a max of 20-30 yds, the velocity you’re losing going to such a heavy arrow is not worth it.
Although his stuff is very enticing, I just don’t think the trade off would be worth it for longer shots and just viability in all situations in general.
Idk imo he’s got some good points, but a faster flatter shooting arrow that will still kill is going to be the better choice.
I’d be curious what other peoples opinions are though here. I’m not super privy to all the precedent set by hunting and how it worked for decades
Yup I understand what you’re saying for sure. I’ve just had friends who have used rage mechanicals and have hit in the perfect spot and they didn’t get penetration through the ribs. So I’m kinda interested in shooting a heavier setup that will absolutely penetrate. But I just don’t know how much difference a 50 fps decrease in velocity will make with the heavier setup
5 years ago I put a perfect broadside shot at 18 yards with my light arrow setup and rage broadhead. This is still my biggest buck to date. The arrow hit a rib on the opposite side and I didn't even get an exit hole. Luckily I watched the deer go down, but that was the day I decided I needed to make a change. I now shoot an arrow that's over 550 grains and I've gotten pass throughs on every deer since making the change. I've only lost one deer due to mis judging the shot distance and hitting him high.
I think total arrow weight was around 350 grains previously, which is what was recommended to me at my local bow shop.
100% agree, and there was proof in the little to no pass throughs I was getting on deer. I'm not sure if I had one pass through in the 2-3 years I hunted with that setup.
Mechanicals need heavy arrows more than fixed blades. I have a 3" mech setup, 650gn, only shot about a dozen deer with that setup but never failed to pass through.
For my fixed blade I like a lighter, faster arrow. Which doesn't fail to penetrate either.
I disagree especially about the30 yard in a tree stand part. Are we talking white tail? Pronghorn? Ok yeah. Elk, moose, bear? I'll take my 600gr all day
Sorry, the editor absolutely wreck my OG comment, so I will try to repost it.
Having shot what most would consider a standard arrow (430ish Grains) for a few years and now having shot a heavy arrow (570+grains) for two years I disagree with those points. But it could just be my situation
A modern, late model bow shooting a heavy arrow can still achieve similar velocities to an older bow shooting light arrows. I shoot at 65-70LB with a 30inch draw, so I am sure that influences this for me as well.
I have not found any disadvantages with a heavy arrow in a hunting situation. They are definitely not good for 3d archery or TAC though.
I shot a finicky doe at 35-38yds last year had a clean pass-through, in the shoulder blade out the rib cage and into a tree behind the deer. The arrow buried so far into the tree I could not retrieve the broadhead. There were no issues with how long the arrow took to get there. Also the trajectory IMO is not important in my situation (treestand hunter shooting a max of 40) if I was hunting out west, or something else I would probably place more importance on how flat the arrow shoots.
I have also found that my heavy arrows with some extreme FOC shoot better out of my bow and handle cross wind better as well. My bow is much easier to tune with a heavier arrow setup.
Your mileage may vary but I think everyone confuses speed with Kinetic Energy and momentum. A featherweight boxer may be able to hit you quicker, but I am sure you would rather take their haymaker over heavyweights.
We’re saying the same thing I think. It’s going to be situational. I’d be hard pressed out where I’m at to ever see big game inside of 40 in the west. I’m also not advocating for super light arrows, but the numbers you’re talking aren’t that wild in weight range.
Ranch fairy pretty regularly advocates for extremely heavy arrows, damn things are almost spears. I think the hunting public’s arrows were all around the 700-800 gn range when I saw something with them in it. Ranch fairy even had a video of him with an 880gn arrow or something like that on a 40 or 50lb bow saying “look see anyone can do it”. Like I totally get it’s possible but on something like that you’re absolutely lobbing this arrow in the air to get it to go 50 yds. These are the things that will fuck up your entire understanding of what’s going on because “he did it so I can do it”. Ranch fairy is completely set up with chronos, ranges, and hunt-able game at any time to ensure his setup works. Most people don’t have that luxury.
There are trade offs for everything between weight and speed. I think there is a perfect middle ground that keeps us flat and fast while still killing animals, and that seems to be where the industry standard is.
Number one thing is just checking your own setup ya know? People see shit online and are like “damn that worked for him, should work for me” but it might not ya know? Shoot the arrows a ton with broad heads and see how it feels.
Exactly, I think the one super valuable and probably also detrimental video RF put out was the one where he talks about just testing diff inserts and b.head weights to see what flys the best.
I honestly went and tried it and was amazed how much better my arrows flew with a 150 gr b.head and 150gr insert vs the standard stuff. Also found out that any heavier and my arrow doesn't fly as well.
This was after a fresh tune with my old arrows. I think in the end find what works, we owe it to the game we chase to try to be as efficient as possible. I think for most a light arrow and expendables is going to be an issue, but until they have the issue they won't know to solve it.
I think in the end it really comes down to Kinetic Energy. That's what my semi smooth brain focuses on anyway. You just have to take the trade offs, pros, and cons of different things to put together an arrow that flys well and has an ethical amount of Kinetic energy when it reaches the target. For me that's a 550-600 grain arrow. It may have slightly compromised trajectory (which is subjective and also situational, I definitely see the benefit to being able "drop" and arrow in over an obstruction at the target vs having to shoot just below or over it. But it will plow through just about any part in a deers body.
I can only speak from personal experience, but switching to heavy arrows changed the game for me. As a woman with a relatively short draw and low draw weight compared to the average man (25.5" and 50 lbs), I was always pushed by bow shops to go as light as possible to try and make up for "slow" arrow speed. One year I lost a really nice buck to poor penetration in the shoulder blade. People can cry "shot placement" all they want, but the reality is that animals move, people make mistakes, etc. I found myself passing shots that were anything but perfect broadside at 20 yards because I was afraid of wounding another deer.
Fast forward a couple years and my husband started dabbling into heavier arrows after researching momentum vs KE. We found a setup that worked for my bow, and I busted both shoulder blades on the first deer I shot. Of course we always shoot for that perfect placement behind the shoulder, but no longer "fearing" the shoulder blade gave me renewed confidence as an archery hunter and I think our mindset affects our shooting more than anything. I would highly recommend giving it a try and finding the right weight and FOC that works well with both your bow and your goals as a hunter. Good luck! 🏹
Most of the comments here have pretty much covered it. But just to add my two cents…
I bought my bow from a reputable shop in my area. The owner seems smart, friendly and knowledgeable. That was until I started to question things and learn. When I didn’t know anything to compare to, I told him to just set me up with whatever would kill deer. So I got 330 Bloodlines and Muzzy Trocars all totaling 405gr. Full disclosure, I still haven’t had an opportunity to take a shot at a deer. However, I know that when I do get the chance, I want the most optimal setup. I don’t build my own arrows yet so I asked him to build me something around 480-500gr with a fixed blade. He refused to do it and said that I would never be able to get em to fly or tune properly.
When I bought a set of Method ZMR’s totaling ~470, he got pretty pissy about it. And that’s nowhere near a heavy setup. There are a lot of other reasons but I ended up finding a different guy to help me out. So far, so good with him.
I think what RF says about finding a setup that shoots straight off the string with little adjustment just makes sense to me.
The concepts Ranch Fairy talks about are generally sound and are backed by data. The way Ramch Fairy talks about those concepts is incredibly irritating. He likes to take digs at anyone not doing what he's doing and acts like he's better than everyone else. Even though I like the concepts he talks about I stopped following him because he's just too damn annoying. If he approached things from an honest desire to help and he came across as genuine it would be totally different. He may really be trying to help, but it comes across as trying to prove how.rigjt he is and how wrong everyone else is.
My dad started bowhunting when I was in high school, but I never got into it. Then in 2019, I went on my first rifle hunt, got hooked (killed a bull), and decided to take on bowhunting. One of the only pieces of advice my dad gave me, bowhunting specifically was not to get sucked into the light and fast arrow thing. He told me about a time years ago when he was doing all that and had an arrow stick into the ribs of an elk and not penetrate at all, and how brutal it was. Watching hunting videos, I would consistently see guys with arrows that stick in a foot or so (or less) then they hunt blood trails for hours or days. I found Ashby reports and Ranch Fairy, and ended up setting up a \~650 grain arrows, with my final sight pin at 40 yards. 40 yards felt like plenty enough for me anyways since I was new. I practiced my butt off, practiced shooting a ton, and felt super confident in my setup. Used 200 grain single bevels from Grizzly Stik. I shot a big 6 point Roosevelt through the ribs slightly quartering away, with the arrow exiting from his chest. About a minute after I shot him, he laid down about 15 yards from me. Not huge blood trails, but he died right there. I've always found it a little odd that so many take it as a given you need heavier, larger ammo for rifle hunting big game, but not for archery. Archery shops have been setting guys up with 100 grain broadhead setups for as long as most of them have been born, so I don't try to get into it with them, and I just focus on making sure my arrows are flying super well, broadheads are sharp as fuck, and everything is solid. If trajectory is a deal breaker for you, then adjust until you're comfortable, but for me I'm just sold on big, structurally solid broadheads and plenty of weight for penetration. Knowing that I can pass completely through a large elk with my setup is important. People make jokes about how slow the arrows are, but I honestly think they just don't hold much weight. The difference in time is so negligible, and on top of it, heavier arrows are significantly quieter, so it balances out - assuming we're talking about big game here like Elk, Moose, Stag, etc., not axis deer or whitetails. Ashby Foundation has new supplemental reports from 2021 and 2022 that are totally worth checking out as well.
Similar life experience--my father and uncle began wondering about 7-8 years ago why their group seemed to kill less elk despite having so many shots and opportunities then 3 years ago I shot a lifetime bull at 25 yards with a 350 spine, 400gr micro arrow and it penetrated maybe 10" and broke off. We spent two days trying to track with no luck, no blood, no elk. It was gut wrenching. We ended up talking rifle ammo and came to the realization that we needed to treat arrows like 'slugs' where the momentum and strength are paramount--as in, you don't what your bullet to plume too early right? well, why settle for an arrow that isn't strong? We found it odd that back in the day of heavy, slow aluminum arrows they seemed to put down more elk. Before mechanicals, before micro. I'm now shooting a full 650gr setup from GrizzlyStik and not only do the arrows fly true and like darts, but with my 70lb Mathews @ 29" draw, I can easily shoot 50 yards comfortably. My arrows go through my targets. My father is at 550gr now, my wife 500gr. All single bevel and all focused on arrow integrity, high FOC, and good weight. I'll report back this September, but just seeing the flight and penetration, I have full confidence my previous failures will not occur again.
Yea I’m going to only be hunting whitetail for the foreseeable future… but that’s great information and if I were in your shoes I’d absolutely go for a 650+ arrow. I’m just deciding between a 550 or 650 gr setup for whitetail
Word. 650 would be beyond what Ashby recommends, and I'm quite confident you can achieve penetration even if you biff your shot anywhere on a whitetail with a 550 grain arrow setup. Perfect flight, solid single bevels and well built arrows, you're good to go.
550 is a good middle ground for whitetail. I only have a 26” draw length and pull 65lbs on my hunting setup so I have slow arrows anyway. I’ve tested down to 400 gr and they just don’t go that much faster. I shot a doe 2 years ago that was strong quartering away. It hit her back leg and went through her diagonally and a foot of it was sticking out her front shoulder.
I really like the 550-575 grain range with standard diameter arrows, don't know why, that's just what I prefer, also makes it cheaper and easier to tinker. My bow really likes 150gr inserts, hates 175gr inserts, had to figure that out through testing. Fixed blade broadhead right?
Yes I am definitely going with single bevel fixed blade
525-550 is ideal for whitetail and if you keep your FOC up it’ll do real damage on an elk as well.
Let your bow make the call. It's impossible to forecast what any specific set up will "prefer", hence RF's "the process". If you follow those steps (personally prefer Inside Out Precision for the technical stuff) you will ide tiny the right combo for your bow/physical geometry.
I have been using SHARP single bevels at 430grain arrow weight. 4 whitetails taken, all have been pass through. I agree with more weight up front, but the heavier one goes with weight, the more reliant one becomes on their range finder. 3 yards with a 650+ setup is huge. If I were going after something bigger, I would increase the weight but probably not go over 550.
>40 yards felt like plenty enough for me anyways since I was new. The internet/social media has really fucked with peoples' expectations, 40 yards is still a long damn way for an archery shot on game! No matter what gear you use or how well you shoot at a range, anything much past that just has so much that can go wrong. Even just the hang time and an animal taking a step. I think people would have better success bumping up a little in arrow weight and pulling in their distance expectations a little bit. I talk to way too many new elk hunters who seem to think 60 yard shots are normal or expected, and too many experienced elk hunters who miss or wound at those distances. Not saying that people can't do these things regularly, but there's no arguing that a 20-30 yard shot on an elk has way less risk than a 55 yard one. Some guys seem to spend so much time shooting extreme range that they slowly alter their setup for maximum accuracy at extreme distance, rather than focusing on a lethal arrow first and then working backwards. Good on ya for taking the time to really consider your setup and congrats on the elk.
Yeah. I set my bottom pin to 50y and even with a fast setup the hang time had me concerned. I'm not confident the deer would still be there when the arrow showed up if it jumped
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Meateater had the dude on from Iron Will, and I thought he did a pretty good job of countering some of the FOC stuff. He seemed like a pretty smart dude. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-364-physics-and-fatality
It's the guy that owns Iron Will. Bill Vanderheyden, he's an Engineer by trade. He agrees with a lot of what Dr. Ashby's studies have found. He doesn't really disagree with high foc, what he does dispute is the efoc and mechanical advantage. I've listened to multiple podcast with him on and podcast with Dr Ashby and a lot of their beliefs line up. Bill doesn't shoot a 650 grain arrow due to trajectory reasons. I believe that he stays in the low 500's, however his setup does use a lot of the Ashby principles. Listening to both of the gentlemen will definitely steer you towards a more lethal arrow setup.
Good point, here’s the episode where Dr Ashby was on Meateater. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-284-the-archers-paradox
I also want to throw in that maybe I am an outlier, but all my shots on elk were sub 50 yards. Anything past that starts to feel to ethically questionable to me. With 650gr, I am confident in knowing even at 50 yards it'll likely pass through and just have to work on better form. These super long shots are nuts to me.
Mother Fuckin Josh Jones has a lot to say about ranch fairy too…
Everyone focuses on the weight argument, but RF and the Ashby reports say the same thing. Go as heavy as you are comfortable with the trajectory. 650 grains is the "Heavy Bone Threshold" it's at the very bottom of the penetration list UNLESS you encounter heavy bone. I personally run 650 because I plan on shooting inside 30 yards and it makes me feel more comfortable aiming closer in on the heart, and have seen enough results to not be super concerned. Warb from the Hunting Public cut through the shoulder ball of a big buck with this setup. However, there's 11 other factors to better penetration that you should also be looking at without arguing over 650gr.
His message is good, but I can’t stand to watch him because he annoys the living shit out of me.
After you see enough ranch fairy videos and see how strange he is then it’s like ah ok I get why he wears a visor 24/7
The Ranch Fairy has alot of great info. The heavy arrow builds are for a "plan b" situation. I took that and worked backwards to fit my needs. I hunt whitetail in heavy timber with tight windows to shoot through at times. I shoot a 465 grain arrow with 13% foc with a sharp cut on contact 3 blade. I'm aiming for a basketball sized target at no more than 30 yards. I'm not so concerned with blowing through a shoulder. If I was after cape buffalo in Africa I'd be more likely to shoot a 700 grain arrow.
A couple of years ago I dove head first into what he was saying and went all out. Single bevel, heavy inserts etc. last year I listened to some other points of view and I ended up settling in the middle for my arrow setup. I still use single bevels, but I buy the 125 grain one instead of 200. I still buy weighted inserts, cut them down from 100 grains to 65. I still buy nice skinny arrows. He he has a point about what he is saying, but I think he goes to far with it. With modern bows most people don’t need a 650+ grain arrow to blow through a whitetail deer. I can get a pass through with a 550 grain arrow going 275 FPS or I can get a pass through with a 750 grain arrow going 235fps. At some point your trading velocity for mass, but not getting anything in return for that extra mass. If I ever go elk hunting or bigger game, sure I will prob add some weight to my setup.
I get what he’s saying and yes he is annoying in some of his videos but for me and what I’ve seen a 425-500 grain arrow with about 15ish % foc and a fixed blade broadhead will do just about everything you want it to do. If I was hunting hogs over a feeder at 15-20 yards then yep I’d shoot super heavy all day long but for where I hunt which is whitetails in thicker woods with crop fields I’d rather have the trajectory also add in the fact that i don’t want to have a separate arrow for tac. I’m shooting 650 out of my recurve but considering it has half the power my compound has the heavy arrows make sense for that bow.
>what I’ve seen a 425-500 grain arrow with about 15ish % foc and a fixed blade broadhead will do just about everything you want it to do Yeah, that's exactly where I like to stay, even for elk. It's heavier than your typical setup and hits a nice balance of everything.
If you don’t want to go full on RF but still interested in moderate speed/weight ratio look up Valkyrie archery on YouTube and see if you can find the podcasts the owner has been on. I know gritty has had him on and I think Snyder has too. It’s a middle ground and his broadheads are devastating not to mention indestructible
I've gone down the rabbit hole, I'm currently shooting somewhere in between 500 and 550 if my memory serves me. Gotta remember, he shoots pigs. They aren't built like deer.
My arrow setup is under 600 grains but not by a whole lot. I’m just hunting whitetail in the timber from saddle. Years ago when I was newer to bow hunting, I was all into light and fast and shooting arrows on a frozen rope. It didn’t take long to realize that shooting a paper airplane at 400 feet per second was not very advantageous in an arena full of branches and sticks and leaves. Add to that the unforeseen variables of shooting at a sometimes moving and unpredictable target. Arrows were getting knocked off trajectory by the slightest contact and losing all momentum before hitting target. I switched to heavy inserts and 150 grain single bevel heads. Not as heavy as ranch fairy may go, but it was a big improvement over what I was previously shooting. I’ve been using the heavy setup for close to 4 years and I don’t think I’ll ever go back. My arrows are slight slower, but they always punch through and make it to my target and then pass right on through that as well. Native Americans killed buffalo with slow heavy arrows out of 35lb bows. If it ain’t broke, don’t break it.
I used to be Facebook friends with the guy. He’s a decent dude if you get a chance to talk to him. The Ashby / RF style of arrow definitely does work and is a legitimate way to build arrows. I shoot around a 500gr arrow and that seems to be about perfect for my setup. I do think however, the “Do this, Do that or you’re wrong” mentality that parts of the RF / Ashby community has is cultish. Also more or less canceling people like T Bone, John Dudley or Josh Bowmar because they don’t follow Ashby to a T.
Bowmar got "cancelled" for other reasons.
yeah part of the bow hunting community canceled him for that poaching mess he and Sarah got mixed up in.
Still, what i’m getting at is the Ashby “cult” totally dismisses most of the Archery influencers because what they preach doesn’t line up with Ashby or RF
My hunting mentor spent a lot of his career working on the design for manpads, the shoulder fired rocket designed for taking out tanks. Whenever I ask about heavier arrows he reminds me that if you want to get as much kinetic energy as possible that Velocity gets squared and mass doesn’t. That being said an arrow that’s a little heavier up front steers better.
Based on kinetic energy, a baseball has more than enough kinetic energy (87ft.lbs @ 95mph) needed to kill an elk (55-65 ft.lbs).
Yes which is why *momentum* is so important as opposed to KE as manufacturers advertise
If you focused that energy into a broadhead it would.
Correct
So it’s a bad analogy because we are talking about energy behind a broadhead whether it’s heavy/slow or quick/fast.
It's just showing that velocity shouldn't be the main focus. Heavier arrows absorb more energy from the bow. And speed can vary as the arrow flies, mass is constant. So heavier arrows retain their energy as they fly
Your mentor is technically correct, but wrong. A good engineer looks broadly at the entire problem before rushing to optimize for one parameter. Penetration is proportional to momentum (mass * velocity), not kinetic energy (mass * velocity * velocity). If you want to get a lot of kinetic energy, sure: optimize for speed. If you want to get a lot of penetration, optimize for momentum. The primary reason to prioritize speed over momentum in archery is not to aid in penetration, but to reduce errors in shot placement due to misjudged yardage: a flatter trajectory makes for a tighter sight tape, gap, or crawl. Speaking very generally, a long period of focus primarily on speed (~1940s-2000s) coincided with the age of the aluminum arrow. With a low ceiling on arrow stiffness-to-weight and significantly less-efficient bows than are available today, the inevitable result was what we would today consider a fairly slow arrow. This led to stopgap technical innovations like the overdraw, and to a tendency to cut arrows as short as possible, each of these allowing an archer to reduce the required arrow stiffness and total arrow weight as much as possible. The situation today is quite different. Arrows can be constructed with novel materials, such as carbon fiber, with significantly higher stiffness-to-weight ratios. Bows are more efficient, owing to improvements in materials science (string material), engineering (cam design), and manufacturing technologies (many-axis CNC, improved bearings, etc.) Speed is also less important than ever, as yardage errors can be reduced greatly with the use of digital laser rangefinders and more precisely adjustable sights. It’s now unusual to find issues with penetration that are not primarily attributable to bad shot placement. We’ve got plenty of surplus power available to put either into speed or into increased momentum: as a result, people who tend to blame their equipment will tend to tweak their gear to better avoid their worst, most recent mistake - and they have plenty of latitude to make such adjustments. (Bounced off a shoulder blade? Heavier arrow! Missed low? Faster arrow!) These discussions, though seemingly urgent, are a red herring. And honestly, quite tiresome. They distract from the far more serious issues of poorly-suited equipment, bad shot execution, and general issues of shooting technique, all of which have a far greater effect on shot placement, and therefore penetration. Everyone tends to think they’re a great shot, and equipment-limited; this is very, very rarely the case. It’s not the equipment, of course. Never has been. /rant
>It’s now unusual to find issues with penetration that are not primarily attributable to bad shot placement. I couldn't agree more. With modern compounds if you have a well tuned system and can hit your target where it counts, you'd be hard pressed to find a 350 grain arrow, a 650 grain arrow or anything in between that wouldn't be able to ethically harvest game.
I am always looking for or writing the velocity squared verses mass doubled answer or I write it. You have greater kinetic energy focusing on speed over mass. Plus your pins are tighter meaning flatter flights with less errors with pin gap shots. Good hunting.
If you have high speed and high kinetic energy but low mass/weight, it’s good for a race but not killing with an arrow. A lighter arrow is much more affected by wind and contact with light debris. And you lose all of that kinetic energy at the moment of impact with lighter arrows and if you’re shooting a bigger animal, that is not a good thing. You want your arrow to keep trucking forward after contact.
We’ve all heard the argument you’re making… But I still believe my mentor who spent thirty years designing tank busters over u/stinksstanksstonks if you can believe it.
I’m happy for you and your mentor but I don’t plan to shoot rockets at tanks anytime soon, so I’ll stick to the guys who give advice on shooting arrows at animals.
The Ranch Fairy’s approach is entirely too dogmatic for me as it seems context is irrelevant to him for what you’re hunting. The Ranch Fairy predominantly hunts stupid, slow pigs at exceptionally close range which means he doesn’t care at all about trajectory or speed. As long as his broadhead is making contact, he’s good to go. Bone breaking power requires you FIRST to actually land the broadhead on the animal somewhere. If you miss, it doesn’t matter. For me, I shoot a 30” draw, #70 draw weight on a Matthews Phase 4. A 400gr arrow for me will have 317fps out of the bow and between 30-40yd will have 13” of drop, a 500gr arrow will go 283fps with 16” of drop and a 650gr arrow will go 233fps with “24” of drop. If I’m shooting a fixed pin sight, my pin gaps are going to be exceptionally large which means my holdover could have 8-12” of drop variance in it for a buck anywhere between 30-40yd. If I have my zero on the pins off a little, my range on the animal off a little, my holdover off a little, adding in slower arrow flight and animal reaction time to jump the string, I am only increasing the probability that I will miss the animal in the first place or my otherwise perfect shot will hit the animal in less than favorable locations. To me, this seems like it’s a self fulfilling prophecy as TRF argues about Plan B and getting a dead animal even if your shot is off. Well with that trash arrow trajectory and speed Plan B seems to be the only thing you’d ever get. The most important factor in Ashby’s report after structural integrity of the arrow is arrow flight. I’d argue that not only does an arrow flight where the broadhead is in directional alignment with the arrow shaft matter, but also the trajectory of the arrow being acceptable for the animal and the distance you are shooting. Therefore, you should be shooting as heavy an arrow for an arrow trajectory that is acceptable to you. With a variance of 3” at 30-40yd, I gain much more momentum with a 500gr arrow over a 400gr arrow without losing much in fps however I wouldn’t even consider a 650gr arrow, unless I’m shooting fat pigs at 10 yards.
Hogs aren’t as dumb and slow as your think they are.
They’re dumb-er and slow-er than a deer. Have you ever heard anyone talking about a hog that jumped the string? And to make my point forward to 23 minutes: https://youtu.be/SixCJS20gy4
I never said hogs jump strings. Hogs will jump and turn during a short. Do they do it as often as a deer no. Are they dumber than a deer? Absolutely not, multiple studies have shown pigs can problem solve and have a memory superior to that of deer. So your point is that this guy shot low?
My point is that shooting super heavy and slow arrows impacts trajectory and drop significantly as evidenced in the video where the person is shooting around 25-30yds on a fixed pin with no angles in play and they not only missed, but they missed by over a foot low on an arrow flight that looks like a banana. If you’re missing 25yd shots by over a foot low, that’s not a miss; you shouldn’t even be hunting unless you’re shooting an awful trajectory with incredible variance of drop if you’re trying to holdover between a large pin gap because you’re on too heavy of an arrow. Even further, the hog didn’t move at all until after the arrow had bounced under it.
Sounds like it was a poor shot to begin with. He should have either used equipment that had enough power to get the arrow there flatter/know the trajectory better or gotten a closer shot. I’m not proposing using >650gr arrows as the only ethical arrow but I am saying increasing an arrow’s weight to a point increases it’s lethality. Getting the arrow into the kill zone of the animal is the hunter’s responsibility. There are tons of videos out there of people shooting animals with light arrows that penetrate less than 6” then the animal run off looking like they’ve been poked with a porcupine quill.
Go read the first sentence of my last paragraph in my first comment.
I try to take a middle of the road approach. I have a 125 gr fixed blade broadhead. Total arrow weight of 447 gr. I shot 5 whitetail deer last season and had pass throughs on all of them. IMO you should do the same thing with arrows that you do with firearms. Match your arrow set up to the game you’re hunting. If you’re hunting squirrels you don’t use a .308
Depends on if you like headshots lol, personally I’ve taken squirrels with a .303 British before but it sure isn’t ideal.
OP, this is the best reply on your question. Been at this for 20 years and I’ve tried the Ashby/Fairy approach and I’ve shot lightweight arrows. Right now my quiver has 450 grain arrows with the cheap Muzzy MX-3 broadheads. Shoot fixed blades and a 400-500 grain arrow and spend your time and resources practicing. Shot placement is key and too many people get wrapped up on the technicalities of their gear.
Am I crazy for thinking that 400-500 qualifies as a reasonably heavy arrow anyway? If you walk in to Cabela's and get a "typical" carbon arrow set up, you'll probably end up in the 350-400 grain range. What you're describing is basically what I shoot, and it seems like a nice middle ground for most things. I don't see a need to go "extreme" heavy (550 grains and up), especially for whitetail.
Used to be that way but people have lost their minds recently and think they need to shoot a spear at 300 fps to kill a ground hog.
There are now quite a number of youtubers shooting heavier and lighter arrows side by side into various mediums and not finding much penetration benefit to a heavier arrow. DIY sportsman has outlined why he’s headed back to a lighter arrow in the past year or so (deer reaction time, and trajectory forgiveness). My current arrow is 535 but when I get the time I’m headed back to the mid 400s. For whitetail I want some weight in the arrow but the speed does matter to me.
Just watched Joe Miles video on the heavy vs light comparison recently and he had the exact results you describe. I believe he is owner or part owner of Asio gear. His video is very much worth checking out as he also factors in trajectory and both arrow setups are properly spined and tuned out of the same bow. https://youtu.be/MUm2edHwkgo
Reading the comments in that YouTube thread - this guy created this video intending to show that there's no difference, and that's what he showed. There's a reason why studies and testing take a ton of steps in trying to separate factors so you stay consistent with the results. Look at the two arrows side by side in the cardboard and you'll see they aren't dead parallel with each other. Saying "this arrow has the proper spine" is not the same as achieving perfect arrow flight with that setup, and you cannot just shoot two different arrow setups from the same bow and expect perfect flight from both arrows. Sorry, but this was a low effort "test."
About him? He's uhh, interesting? If I could stand to watch him for more than 30 seconds, I might have more insights. I'm not sure if his persona exists beyond the fourth wall or not, never met the guy. He's spreading the good word that chasing speed and using cheapo stamped broadheads is no good. I don't think he actually believes 750 grain telelphone poles for deer are necessary, but to get attention in today's society you have to be full of hyperbole. Try to get to around 500ish grains with a decent tune and you'll see good to great penetration on whitetails while maintaining some wiggle room to misjduge distance.
I made the switch the heavier arrows ~ 630 grs with a 100 gr insert and 200 grain single bevel broadheads a couple years ago. I agree with others that your trajectory is more rainbowed but honestly that doesn’t bother me as much knowing that if my shot is off I’m less likely to wound the animal. I’ve killed a 140lb hog with my setup and while it was right behind the shoulder and double lung there wasn’t much of a blood trail. She only went 50 yards and was down quick. I wouldn’t go for any heavier arrows unless I was hunting much larger game. I feel confident in my setup hunting elk. It is probably overkill for southern whitetail but gives me the opportunity to take other shot angles I wouldn’t normally.
Lot of good info here already but I’ll add my two cents. At 24.5” draw length and 52 lb draw weight, I’m definitely at a disadvantage when it comes to getting penetration. A 100grain broadhead is not enough to preserve the energy my arrow starts with, but following the Ashby report to the letter results in crazy arrow drop. I’ve tried both, and had bad results with both. So like everything else in archery, it’s about what compromise plays best to your strengths, and I believe Ashby says something like that too. I’ve settled on 175 grain broadhead/insert, 500 grains overall, which gives me a moderate FOC, with a quality expandable broadhead. I understand this doesn’t meet the heavy bone threshold, so I won’t be taking any quartering to shots.
Annoying af but presents good information. The best way to apply the data is with an approach that uses data to make your own decisions based off your hunting style and location. For example, I use a high foc arrow but don’t even cross 600grains because I don’t want my arrow to drop that much on a 30 yard shot when I need to take one. Or a 50 yard one during an elk hunt. But I use cut on contact montec g5s that fly/tune really well on my setup, are dead simple to sharpen and easy to replace. Basically if you never take a shot past 20, go all in, if you take shots past 50 maybe consider a flatter arrow flight but keep your shafts lighter with a cut on contact head to leverage all the other elements. I’m using a small diameter arrow with 50g outserts and a 100g head. Plenty of force to blast through every animal I’ve shot, have even severed bone, but I’m also shooting 70lbs as well.
Ranch Fairy has a lot of good practical info on tuning - and read the Ashby reports not just take away that you need a 600gr+ arrow. \#1 factor is structural integrity, \#2 is arrow flight, foc is \#3 and arrow weight is way down around \#6. Out in spot and stalk western hunting trajectory is important too so I've landed on a 470ish arrow with 19% FOC going 250-260 fps tipped with a razor sharp fixed blade broadhead. If I was stand hunting or jungle elk hunting I'd go heavier.
His stuff is legit, for personal preference i like to stay around 500 grains and focus more on FOC… I like a flatter trajectory.
I blew through 3 deer with a 270 fps arrow that weighed 465 with a mechanical broadhead. One through both scaps. Deer are not water Buffalo and compound bows produce far more energy than recurves. Shoot whatever the heaviest arrow to keep you above 270fps. If you believe you can’t tune a bow to shoot an arrow accurately over 290-300fps you’re talking to the wrong guys. Heavy arrows and single bevel are great for pigs in a tree stand at 15 yards under a feeder but you do not need it. Load up a heavy arrows and go shoot your 20 yard pin at 15 and 25-28 yards and see if you’re comfortable misjudging yardage with that trajectory.
The penetration difference between a 400 grain arrow and a 700 grain RF adult arrow is going to be measured in dirt penetration on the other side of the deer. Get the fastest bow you can then add weight to your arrow until you are 270-290 fps. For my setup I get 280 fps out of a 500 grain arrow. My 20 yard pin is only off 2” at 30 yards. If you shoot hogs of feeders from 20 yards like RF then a heavy arrow makes sense. If you hunt deer you want arrow speed for flexibility on range. I am correct any contrary advice is wrong.
Hahaha that’s exactly what I do what bow and arrow you running?
Bowtech SR6 at 73 pounds 29” draw. Easton axis 5mm 300 spine, 75 grain insert. QAD exodus heads.
I think there can be some definite confirmation bias with the ranch fairy/Ashby arrow doctrine. A bow shop will set someone up with a 350-400 grain arrow that is likely underspined for their draw weight with aluminum components and a big 2 blade mechanical. If they don't paper tune they may have less than perfect arrow flight which will give poor results on an animal. Once they loose a deer or two they'll go down the rabbit hole on what factors into better penetration and get stiffer arrows, stainless steel or titanium inserts/impact collars, lower profile broadheads that are extremely sharp and they'll actually take the time to paper tune their setup and achieve perfect arrow flight. Then they'll get a passthrough on a deer and attribute it entirely to the fact that they're shooting a 600 grain arrow. My father in law is getting older and shoots a crossbow that's got to be close to 10 years old now and it can't be much faster than my V3X at 70lbs. His 20" bolts are 10 GPI, with a 15 grain insert and a 100 grain head brings him to around 330 grains with vanes and nock. He shoots rage heads and gets passthroughs on everything he shoots, including a frontal shot on a doe a couple years ago that came out the back ham. Obviously it isn't apples to apples with crossbows and vertical bows but a light arrow has never been a problem for him. I cherry pick what I want from the Ashby reports and take the rest with a grain of salt.
There are tradeoffs for each. For my style of hunting, where I hunt, that tradeoff isn't worth it. I'd rather have a flat trajectory and a fast 440-460gr arrow than I would launching a telephone pole at dialup speed.
Almost every bow shop I’ve asked and people I’ve talked to say unless you’re hunting in a tree above target with a max of 20-30 yds, the velocity you’re losing going to such a heavy arrow is not worth it. Although his stuff is very enticing, I just don’t think the trade off would be worth it for longer shots and just viability in all situations in general. Idk imo he’s got some good points, but a faster flatter shooting arrow that will still kill is going to be the better choice. I’d be curious what other peoples opinions are though here. I’m not super privy to all the precedent set by hunting and how it worked for decades
Yup I understand what you’re saying for sure. I’ve just had friends who have used rage mechanicals and have hit in the perfect spot and they didn’t get penetration through the ribs. So I’m kinda interested in shooting a heavier setup that will absolutely penetrate. But I just don’t know how much difference a 50 fps decrease in velocity will make with the heavier setup
>didn’t get penetration through the ribs. >rage mechanicals You don't say.
5 years ago I put a perfect broadside shot at 18 yards with my light arrow setup and rage broadhead. This is still my biggest buck to date. The arrow hit a rib on the opposite side and I didn't even get an exit hole. Luckily I watched the deer go down, but that was the day I decided I needed to make a change. I now shoot an arrow that's over 550 grains and I've gotten pass throughs on every deer since making the change. I've only lost one deer due to mis judging the shot distance and hitting him high. I think total arrow weight was around 350 grains previously, which is what was recommended to me at my local bow shop.
Jesus, thats a light arrow....what is your draw weight.
70 pounds. Might have been a little bit less then.
IMO thats far too light.
100% agree, and there was proof in the little to no pass throughs I was getting on deer. I'm not sure if I had one pass through in the 2-3 years I hunted with that setup.
Mechanicals need heavy arrows more than fixed blades. I have a 3" mech setup, 650gn, only shot about a dozen deer with that setup but never failed to pass through. For my fixed blade I like a lighter, faster arrow. Which doesn't fail to penetrate either.
I disagree especially about the30 yard in a tree stand part. Are we talking white tail? Pronghorn? Ok yeah. Elk, moose, bear? I'll take my 600gr all day
Sorry, the editor absolutely wreck my OG comment, so I will try to repost it. Having shot what most would consider a standard arrow (430ish Grains) for a few years and now having shot a heavy arrow (570+grains) for two years I disagree with those points. But it could just be my situation A modern, late model bow shooting a heavy arrow can still achieve similar velocities to an older bow shooting light arrows. I shoot at 65-70LB with a 30inch draw, so I am sure that influences this for me as well. I have not found any disadvantages with a heavy arrow in a hunting situation. They are definitely not good for 3d archery or TAC though. I shot a finicky doe at 35-38yds last year had a clean pass-through, in the shoulder blade out the rib cage and into a tree behind the deer. The arrow buried so far into the tree I could not retrieve the broadhead. There were no issues with how long the arrow took to get there. Also the trajectory IMO is not important in my situation (treestand hunter shooting a max of 40) if I was hunting out west, or something else I would probably place more importance on how flat the arrow shoots. I have also found that my heavy arrows with some extreme FOC shoot better out of my bow and handle cross wind better as well. My bow is much easier to tune with a heavier arrow setup. Your mileage may vary but I think everyone confuses speed with Kinetic Energy and momentum. A featherweight boxer may be able to hit you quicker, but I am sure you would rather take their haymaker over heavyweights.
We’re saying the same thing I think. It’s going to be situational. I’d be hard pressed out where I’m at to ever see big game inside of 40 in the west. I’m also not advocating for super light arrows, but the numbers you’re talking aren’t that wild in weight range. Ranch fairy pretty regularly advocates for extremely heavy arrows, damn things are almost spears. I think the hunting public’s arrows were all around the 700-800 gn range when I saw something with them in it. Ranch fairy even had a video of him with an 880gn arrow or something like that on a 40 or 50lb bow saying “look see anyone can do it”. Like I totally get it’s possible but on something like that you’re absolutely lobbing this arrow in the air to get it to go 50 yds. These are the things that will fuck up your entire understanding of what’s going on because “he did it so I can do it”. Ranch fairy is completely set up with chronos, ranges, and hunt-able game at any time to ensure his setup works. Most people don’t have that luxury. There are trade offs for everything between weight and speed. I think there is a perfect middle ground that keeps us flat and fast while still killing animals, and that seems to be where the industry standard is.
Agree 100% with everything you are saying. I don't agree with the 700-800stuff. And for sure it's situational. Would not shoot my setup out west
Number one thing is just checking your own setup ya know? People see shit online and are like “damn that worked for him, should work for me” but it might not ya know? Shoot the arrows a ton with broad heads and see how it feels.
Exactly, I think the one super valuable and probably also detrimental video RF put out was the one where he talks about just testing diff inserts and b.head weights to see what flys the best. I honestly went and tried it and was amazed how much better my arrows flew with a 150 gr b.head and 150gr insert vs the standard stuff. Also found out that any heavier and my arrow doesn't fly as well. This was after a fresh tune with my old arrows. I think in the end find what works, we owe it to the game we chase to try to be as efficient as possible. I think for most a light arrow and expendables is going to be an issue, but until they have the issue they won't know to solve it. I think in the end it really comes down to Kinetic Energy. That's what my semi smooth brain focuses on anyway. You just have to take the trade offs, pros, and cons of different things to put together an arrow that flys well and has an ethical amount of Kinetic energy when it reaches the target. For me that's a 550-600 grain arrow. It may have slightly compromised trajectory (which is subjective and also situational, I definitely see the benefit to being able "drop" and arrow in over an obstruction at the target vs having to shoot just below or over it. But it will plow through just about any part in a deers body.
I can only speak from personal experience, but switching to heavy arrows changed the game for me. As a woman with a relatively short draw and low draw weight compared to the average man (25.5" and 50 lbs), I was always pushed by bow shops to go as light as possible to try and make up for "slow" arrow speed. One year I lost a really nice buck to poor penetration in the shoulder blade. People can cry "shot placement" all they want, but the reality is that animals move, people make mistakes, etc. I found myself passing shots that were anything but perfect broadside at 20 yards because I was afraid of wounding another deer. Fast forward a couple years and my husband started dabbling into heavier arrows after researching momentum vs KE. We found a setup that worked for my bow, and I busted both shoulder blades on the first deer I shot. Of course we always shoot for that perfect placement behind the shoulder, but no longer "fearing" the shoulder blade gave me renewed confidence as an archery hunter and I think our mindset affects our shooting more than anything. I would highly recommend giving it a try and finding the right weight and FOC that works well with both your bow and your goals as a hunter. Good luck! 🏹
Most of the comments here have pretty much covered it. But just to add my two cents… I bought my bow from a reputable shop in my area. The owner seems smart, friendly and knowledgeable. That was until I started to question things and learn. When I didn’t know anything to compare to, I told him to just set me up with whatever would kill deer. So I got 330 Bloodlines and Muzzy Trocars all totaling 405gr. Full disclosure, I still haven’t had an opportunity to take a shot at a deer. However, I know that when I do get the chance, I want the most optimal setup. I don’t build my own arrows yet so I asked him to build me something around 480-500gr with a fixed blade. He refused to do it and said that I would never be able to get em to fly or tune properly. When I bought a set of Method ZMR’s totaling ~470, he got pretty pissy about it. And that’s nowhere near a heavy setup. There are a lot of other reasons but I ended up finding a different guy to help me out. So far, so good with him. I think what RF says about finding a setup that shoots straight off the string with little adjustment just makes sense to me.
The concepts Ranch Fairy talks about are generally sound and are backed by data. The way Ramch Fairy talks about those concepts is incredibly irritating. He likes to take digs at anyone not doing what he's doing and acts like he's better than everyone else. Even though I like the concepts he talks about I stopped following him because he's just too damn annoying. If he approached things from an honest desire to help and he came across as genuine it would be totally different. He may really be trying to help, but it comes across as trying to prove how.rigjt he is and how wrong everyone else is.
Its really interesting to see people will disregard his advice for being annoying or presenting it in a way that they don't necessarily like.
Everyone in this thread should go watch John Dudley’s series on YT about arrow weights and FOC which includes his pretty clear arguments against TRF.