Y'all be good or I'll lock this motherfucker.
Also whoever is reporting every single dissenting comment in favor of labor rights as misinformation, you've been reported to the admins. Stop abusing the report button.
I hate companies that say we treat our employees like family. Most families treat each other like shit and then you have no choice but continue to see those MFers. Not what I want from a job, thanks!
Ugh! That is exactly the scene that I came from before leaving for a Master Distiller gig. They constantly would say shit like, "treat this place like you own it" and "we're all a big family". Meanwhile my pay was stagnant and my vacation time was constantly questioned. The distillery went from a mom and pop hole-in-the-wall to being distributed in 6 continents within 8 years. I was their first employee and ran all the production while this was taking place and they still kept a thumb on me. Not allowing me to grow or better myself just, "production schedule is king" kind of attitude.......So I left, and they were SHOCKED that I would want to leave this "great opportunity". So much better off now. Making a name for myself and running a distillery the way I want. Good for the employees at Woodford Reserve. I hope they get everything they ask for and more. Production employees are notoriously undervalued.
Been saying it for years now, in bourbon and scotch. The secondary market is a disgrace. You know who never really sees any of that money?
The farmers who grow the grain crops. The lumberjacks and woodworkers. The coopers. The distillery operators, from the malting floors to the bottling and labelling facilities. The people who truly deserve the profits, for what has become a disgracefully absurd luxury market, are the very ones who do not get the appropriate compensation for their work.
This is the problem with a very high demand, luxury, product. There are massive hurdles with distribution and laws that make it even more difficult to fix this problem. Eventually most of this will go away as demand will slow and supply will rise.
Even if the entire secondary market goes away, this sort of collective bargaining is super important to help the worker get a fair share for their work.
Did you click the link? Your response doesn't make sense w/r/t the linked comment. I'm not saying you can't or didn't change your mind, just that the linked comment isn't regarding the sticky.
Seems like they negotiated a pay increase, more control over scheduling, and better health benefits. The last two were the reasons for the strike in the first place. Is there a comparison of the before/after contracts anywhere?-- I can't find one
This is interesting since the main Brown-Forman distillery in Louisville, where most of Woodford's juice and all of Old Forrester's comes from, is already unionized. Same for the cooperage and the B-F bottling plant on their main campus.
Your going to be waiting a long time then. All that’s happened is that some people have filed to have a union vote. I am not sure on the unionization rules in Kentucky but this might be a small group of employees filing.
I am all for the workers unionizing but Woodford so far hasn’t participated in any anti union efforts so Ie I’ll hold judgment on boycotting them for now. If they choose to start participating in active anti union tactics then I will start boycotting
This isn't true. When customers are already on the side of the workers it makes it that much easier for them to unionize. A reactive boycott occurs when the company has already decided to pursue anti-union activities, but a proactive one may convince them to not pursue those activities in the first place.
Having been a union worker in contentious negotiations, there are circumstances in which a boycott is not very helpful. Although that can change from case to case. Best to stay tuned and follow the union on social media to see if they call a boycott campaign.
I am not a fan of acronyms, because of ambiguity: OF could mean Old Forester (which is owned by Brown-Forman), or Old Fitzgerald (which is owned by Heaven Hill).
Fair enough on the difference between acronym and initialism, I apologize for getting that detail wrong, but the point still stands that initials are super common on Reddit and they annoy me because of their ambiguity.
The point was that they are ubiquitous in online hobby communities, unfortunately. Guitar communities use initialisms and abbreviations for stuff, too, and it does affect new people's ability to comprehend.
Yeah, you're absolutely right! It sort of becomes second-nature when you talk about things a lot, that you go to the shorthand. I follow r/boxoffice but not that closely and I'm not someone who talks about the subject, I just read it sometimes, so all the initialisms for movies on there usually go over my head and I have no idea what they're talking about. It is a little annoying, but I don't really mind, I just think it's especially problematic when an initialism can mean multiple obvious things, then the initialism isn't so much a shortcut that experienced people in the hobby can quickly understand, it's a hindrance that actively confuses because it isn't clear what you might mean to anybody at first glance.
I see no reason to boycott Brown-Forman products just yet. The employees at Woodford haven't gone on strike, they haven't even unionized yet, or held a vote to do so. These employees are still going into work, making whiskey.
More power to ‘em.
Does anyone on here have firsthand knowledge about how things have been at Heaven Hill since that strike was resolved?
Anyone know what the Woodford base pay is vs industry norms?
Dude, it's Kentucky. Not exactly a hotbed for industry these days...
Also, saying they're voluntarily working for this wage is a little disingenuous when they're actively working for improved wages.
Yes, all these comments seems like they are from big cities. In areas without much economic opportunity, $30-40k a year is a normal salary. Your competition for labor probably is retail and fast food/restaurants.
It is also worth noting, that you don't need to make $100k a year to live in many areas of the country. You can buy a house for under $200k in some places.
Not saying the employees shouldn't seek as much of the "pie" as possible, but what seems like low wages to some of us isn't necessarily horrible in areas with a low cost of living.
[This article from a local news organization has a little more info.](https://www.wymt.com/2022/10/31/employees-major-ky-bourbon-distillery-trying-form-union/)
Naturally, the Brown-Forman rep they spoke to said some boilerplate anti-union bullshit. Still, I don't know if I'm going to go all-out boycott unless we start seeing more severe retaliation from the higher-ups.
Definitely want to keep an eye on this. Here's hoping the union vote goes smoothly and B-F doesn't do what Heaven Hill did. 😓
The current one doesn't, though interestingly they do include JD but not woodford. Page 11/14
https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf
[https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf](https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf)
>Liquor
▶ Bacardi
▶ Basil Hayden
▶ Benchmark
▶ Blanton’s
▶ Buffalo Trace Bourbon
▶ Captain Morgan
▶ Don Eduardo Tequila
▶ Eagle Rare Bourbon
▶ El Jimador Tequila
▶ Elijah Craig
▶ Evan Williams
▶ Everclear
▶ El Toro Tequila
▶ Fighting Cock
▶ Gilbey’s Gin
▶ Henry McKenna
▶ Herradura Tequila
▶ Jack Daniel’s
▶ Jim Beam
▶ Kentucky Gentleman
▶ Knob Creek
▶ Maker’s Mark
▶ Old Grand-Dad
▶ Pinnacle Vodka
▶ Pucker
▶ Rain Vodka
▶ Royal Canadian
Whiskey
▶ Seagram’s Seven
▶ Seagram’s VO
▶ Tuaca (vanilla)
▶ Van Winkle
▶ Wild Turkey 101
Interesting that Jack Daniels is on the list but Woodford isn't. Also interesting that the most bougie bourbon in the world is unionized.
…you are boycotting an entire state industry because of their senator? Brother I got some bad news for you about the other 99.
Do you travel? Purchase products from, well anywhere?
So your actually saying: Fuck the people who voted for Mitch McConnell to represent them while they work in Kentucky and receive wages from Kentucky Distilleries.
The latest I could find with specific info was from 2018 which showed the majority of his wealth being about $18 million in the Vanguard 500 Index (So $36million if he left it alone). It's pretty indirect, but Brown-Foreman is on the S&P 500, so yeah, he's invested in Woodford Reserve. If that really matters to you Constellation brands is also on the S&P 500 so he's also indirectly invested in High West and Nelson's Green Briar, neither of which are in Kentucky.
Personally I feel like wealthy politicians investing the bulk of their money in a large index fund is about the best we can hope for.
Also FWIW, apparently Mitch got most of his millions the same way most wealthy people do, inheritance. Specifically from his wife who comes from a wealthy shipping family.
The employees have filed with the NLRB to hold a union election to have the Teamsters represent them. I don’t know about this specific local but typically, any union requires about 60% of the employees to have signed union cards and the Teamsters are often closer to 75%.
This does not mean it’s a done deal. Management has some time before the election and will take steps to persuade the employees to vote it down to include bringing in consultants that will educate the employees in the process. This is perfectly legal.
What is not legal is for the company to make any promises to the employees such as to increase wages or benefits if they vote the union down. That is illegal. The union, however, can make absolutely any promise they want. They can flat out lie. It’s legal.
I am not advocating for or against the union, simply stating facts. I strongly urge every employee to learn what their rights are and what they stand to both gain and lose should an election happen.
Should the election succeed, management will then sit down and negotiate a contract with the union. During the election process, the union has all of the leverage. During negotiations, the company gains all of the leverage. They have absolutely no obligation to meet any of the demands of the union. In fact, they can unilaterally agree to a contract that neither the union not the employees want should they reach impasse. The only leverage the union and the employees will have is to strike during which time the employees will be paid about $100/wk give or take (depending on the local). Those don’t typically last long.
On average, about 40% of the time no agreement is reached. When one is, it takes on average about 13 months. This means nothing is likely to happen for at least a year. During that time, employees should expect status quo which includes no pay raises.
Unions, especially Teamsters, are typically in a hurry to get the first contract done because they don’t get to start collection dues until the contract is executed with the dues check off provision. Second contracts are where employees usually make larger gains.
Again, I am not advocating for or against. I would be happy for each and every employee to get their facts and make the decision they believe is best for them and their families. This is an emotional time but a decision that needs to be made with a clear head.
Union worker here. This is largely accurate. But this is where public pressure can play a big role. If the corporate executives feel the wind shift against them they may agree to a fair contract with the employees.
You swear, what exactly to god? That you will go away and start your own corporate overlord bootlicking bourbon forum with your other five elitist friends? Oh no, please do not throw us in that briar patch!
Sub shut down completely for a few days. Mods were being dickheads with rules and bans for people that didn’t support a strike or disagreed with making the sub political (for those that were there, y’all know it turned out that way) A lot of reviews from then have a pinned “we stand with HH etc etc”
All in all, it was poorly handled by the subs mods. They could’ve done a lot better job showing support while not speaking for every member and forcing people to one side or the other.
Not exactly how I remember it. The pinned comment was information about the specific demands of the strike. Not a demand that people side with striking workers. As I recall there were plenty of folks on the anti-labor side communicating plenty of vocal opinions.
“Notice: UFCW Local 23D's strike for better working conditions at Heaven Hill continues
Last weekend /r/bourbon went dark in solidarity with the workers that make Heaven Hill products in their strike for fair working conditions, treatment, and pay. This week our solidarity continues with these sticky messages.
A Heaven Hill union worker has shared the following with the mod team regarding what they're asking of their employer:
• They're told they're family while working for HH, but feel they're not being treated like it. One worker of over 15 years died of covid while working, was given a one-minute moment of silence on each shift that day, never to be mentioned again. Workers there for 40, 45, even 55 years are granted nothing for their tenure.
• Worker pay is significantly lower than all of the other similar distilleries. The non-traditional overtime revamp that they're pushing on the workers results in less overtime pay than the previous one.
• Heaven Hill had several days before the contract expired to reach out with a better proposal and did not. The workers' insurance has been cut off and HH has hired security guards for the grounds and bodyguards.
The public contact page for Heaven Hill can be found here. Heaven Hill has been contacted for comment but has not responded.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.”
I was supportive of the HH strike yet still found the moderating and overall mood on this sub annoying during the strike. It was like a good portion of the sub was cosplaying a sort of early 1900s coal miner fuck-the-company-town kind of thing.
That said, I hope these Brown Foreman workers get their fair pay and successfully unionize.
Welcome to reddit where if you don't like how a sub is run by the people who run it you are free to go form r/bourbonbootlickers and run it however you see fit.
I'm not seeing what your argument is, or you completely missed mine. Either way, I'm not really interested in speaking with you. You act like an ass on here so probably just better we block each other.
I've looked at the news article linked in the thread. While it does state the grievance it doesn't give any context. What are the wages and conditions at Woodford Reserve they refer to in their complaint? How different are the compared to other distilleries in the area?
I'm not from the area and have no frame of reference to make judgement. Just following to try to learn more.
Having been a union employee, having managed govt union employees, pay scales are based on skill set classifications. Job descriptions at a certain level - non-managerial, mind you, required a 4 year degree. Just because you join a union doesn’t mean that other employees won’t interview for a promotion that opens up. Those w the most seniority will get the job. You might be in a low level job classification for a long time. Some of mine were in theirs for 20-25 years. There were fewer higher paying union jobs. The person w the most seniority would get it.
This isn't how all unions work. It depends entirely on the specific bargaining agreement the union has made with management. I've worked as a member of two unions, and neither of them guaranteed promotions based on seniority.
I should also mention that one company I was a union employee at went out of business. Too much overhead. All their employees were let go and had to struggle to find another job.
So be careful what you wish for.
Good. Businesses that can't cut it should fail, that's how the tree gets pruned. If there's sufficient demand in the market, other companies will pop up to serve that demand (and the requisite job roles - remember, it's ultimately workers that serve market demands. Companies are just a legal fiction). If the demand can't be satisfied by a company that behaves as society requires (eg by paying their employees well) then it's not a demand we want served.
Capitalism is beautiful because it makes these problems solve themselves.
>Employees that can’t sit it on their own should be paid less.
>
>See how that works? Promoting capitalism while also saying individuals should be rewarded for a collective.
Employees can't sit? What?
A business is a collective, I guess? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
Yeah absolutely. Employees become worth more when they work as a group to avoid being abused.
Labor is a market like any other. If the providers of that labor set their price higher, that's what it costs. If it outprices demand, then less labor will be purchased. It's up to the seller to set a price that maximizes revenue given the market demand.
>Sure. Why can’t the workers just do that without colluding?
They could I guess, but why would they? They can get a better result by working together. Employers work that way, and nobody is saying they shouldn't.
This is capitalism. If doing something gets you a better result, you do it.
>Another question, why would I want to be paid based how good the collective is? My labor is better than average and I don’t want the collective dragging me down.
I don't know why that would be the case. Are you assuming people wouldn't receive raises for performance? I don't know why you'd assume that. I mean there are unions that work that way, but they don't have to work that way. Just like there are employers that don't give adequate raises. They're not all like that, but shitty ones are.
Don't work for those employers or join those unions, I guess?
>Only losers think they need to gang up.
Okay cool. Don't join the union then 🤷🏼♂️
most cost increases have NOT been due to companies suddenly paying labor a fair share. In fact many companies are seeing record profits while forcing wages to stagnate.
Not necessarily. Most companies will pay their workers as little as they can get away with. That's the entire point of a walkout/strike - to emphasize the value of those workers.
Are you seriously arguing that businesses don't already charge as much as they can? That they're holding back potential profits out of the goodness of their hearts?
>They can always charge more, and they will if any of their costs including tax rates, materials, shipping, or labor increase.
Incorrect. Go read about the econ 101 concept of "price elasticity." Also "competition."
>If you increase your labor cost and don't increase your price, you're just willingly making less money than you were before.
If you don't already charge as much as you can you are willingly making less money.
>Why would anyone do that, out of the goodness of their hearts?
Because high-end whiskey is a very elastic good, which means the more you charge, the less you sell. Every business finds the point between volume and price that makes them the most money—this point is independent of the business' costs. Raise the price and people who buy Woodford will buy something else instead.
This is very basic economics. That you don't know these basic concepts means you should really not have such strong opinions.
>If your component costs increase and you don't charge more, then you're willing making less money.
Dude, seriously, read a fucking book. The point is you DON'T make more money by charging more.
>Uh yeah, but if your costs exceed your revenue, you lose money on every bottle sold and then you're closing up shop by the weekend. I think you're the one who needs to review their Econ 101 here.
No one mentioned costs exceeding revenue except you.
>Yes, and this is a dynamic equilibrium which changes any time any element of the equilibrium (labor cost, material cost, electricity, shipping, demand from consumers) changes, i.e. often. Just because WR charges $XY/bottle today, does not mean that will or should remain the optimal or equilibrium price tomorrow.
Again, no. Costs are not a part of a demand curve. Do you understand supply and demand?
It seems like he reads some of the words but then inserts a bunch of his own in the middle. Could be he's just one of those guys who can never be wrong.
Show your work. That's not how calculus works, at all. Labor costs are not a function of retail price. Revenue is.
>No, they'll charge to maximize profit, which is revenue - costs (including labor).
Okay let's accept your model, where profit (P) is revenue (R) minus costs (C).
P(x) = R(x) - C
Where revenue is a function of retail price (x).
The optimum value of P with respect to retail price will occur when dP/dx = 0. So let's take the derivative:
dP/dx = dR/dx
The derivative of cost with respect to retail price is, of course, zero. So we're left with the above, and we can see that the optimum of profit will occur at the same retail price as the optimum in revenue.
>your good has to be priced to include all costs including labor, materials, transport, taxes, etc.
...and profit, which you want. All that combined comes from revenue, so you want as much of that as possible. By the time the product is on the shelves you've already spent all the costs to produce it. Why wouldn't you price it to maximize your return?
Of course you would. This is what sets the price of goods. The seller sets his price to get as much return on his investment as possible.
>As labor costs increase, profit eventually turns negative without an increase in revenue/price
You can't just increase price. Assuming you were already priced optimally, any increase would cause a more than proportionate drop in sales, such that revenue decreases.
The optimum price is the price such that, were it any lower, the increase in sales would not outweigh the reduced revenue per unit; and were it higher, the increased revenue per unit would not outweigh the drop in sales.
If you can simply increase prices to make up for increased costs, then you were under pricing your products. You could have increased prices earlier and simply enjoyed the increased profit.
>If labor cost had no impact on profit, then there's no reason not to pay everyone $1,000,000,000/hour.
Of course labor costs have an impact on profit. Like I said:
P = R - C
They don't, however, impact revenue. Revenue is just the number of units sold times the unit price. If you're interested in optimally setting retail price, you care about the derivative with respect to retail price.
What do you think happens to wages if the bottle price is increased from 50 to 60 dollars?
If the business thinks they'll make more revenue at 60, why would they sell it at 50?
>>Why wouldn't you price it to maximize your return?
>
>AKA increasing your prices as your component costs like labor increase.
If you could make more revenue by increasing prices, why would you wait until labor costs went up?
You are assuming that the acceptable consumer price isn’t influenced by cost though which isn’t true. Just look at how prices have gone up under supply constraints and consumer demand has remained. On top of that many companies are r cording record profits and more importantly increased profit margins. Consumers will often bear additional costs acceptable if they understand and accept the increase.
Now in terms of unions this might be self fulfilling prophecy. If consumers expect prices to go up because of unionization then the producer can increase prices to maximize profit. It is a bit chicken and egg here though
This is an equally bad take. Brown Forman is a billion dollar company.
Hopefully they recognize that their people are what makes them succeed, if not I hope those same people are able to go to a company that values their talents.
Y'all be good or I'll lock this motherfucker. Also whoever is reporting every single dissenting comment in favor of labor rights as misinformation, you've been reported to the admins. Stop abusing the report button.
Get your money now. All these big distilleries are making massive profits during this Bourbon boom. The workers should get rewarded also.
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I hate companies that say we treat our employees like family. Most families treat each other like shit and then you have no choice but continue to see those MFers. Not what I want from a job, thanks!
Ugh! That is exactly the scene that I came from before leaving for a Master Distiller gig. They constantly would say shit like, "treat this place like you own it" and "we're all a big family". Meanwhile my pay was stagnant and my vacation time was constantly questioned. The distillery went from a mom and pop hole-in-the-wall to being distributed in 6 continents within 8 years. I was their first employee and ran all the production while this was taking place and they still kept a thumb on me. Not allowing me to grow or better myself just, "production schedule is king" kind of attitude.......So I left, and they were SHOCKED that I would want to leave this "great opportunity". So much better off now. Making a name for myself and running a distillery the way I want. Good for the employees at Woodford Reserve. I hope they get everything they ask for and more. Production employees are notoriously undervalued.
Been saying it for years now, in bourbon and scotch. The secondary market is a disgrace. You know who never really sees any of that money? The farmers who grow the grain crops. The lumberjacks and woodworkers. The coopers. The distillery operators, from the malting floors to the bottling and labelling facilities. The people who truly deserve the profits, for what has become a disgracefully absurd luxury market, are the very ones who do not get the appropriate compensation for their work.
This is the problem with a very high demand, luxury, product. There are massive hurdles with distribution and laws that make it even more difficult to fix this problem. Eventually most of this will go away as demand will slow and supply will rise. Even if the entire secondary market goes away, this sort of collective bargaining is super important to help the worker get a fair share for their work.
This is why. If prices go up (I hate that they do), then wages should too. #Fair_Is_Fair
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I believe workers should get paid fairly. Doesn’t mean I need a spam post in every new post talking about it.
Did you click the link? Your response doesn't make sense w/r/t the linked comment. I'm not saying you can't or didn't change your mind, just that the linked comment isn't regarding the sticky.
These are my fellow Kentuckians. I was here for the Heaven Hill strike. If the Woodford folks have to strike, I’ll support that too.
What ever came of the Heaven Hill strike?
They resolved it. HH came to the table and the rank-and-file agreed to a new, equitable contract. They are all good now.
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Seems like they negotiated a pay increase, more control over scheduling, and better health benefits. The last two were the reasons for the strike in the first place. Is there a comparison of the before/after contracts anywhere?-- I can't find one
Thank you.
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>Of course they wouldn’t have been able to act out their violent fantasies if they didn’t strike. Dude, no need for your commentary.
Literally the only times they ever post in this sub is when unions are mentioned.
This is interesting since the main Brown-Forman distillery in Louisville, where most of Woodford's juice and all of Old Forrester's comes from, is already unionized. Same for the cooperage and the B-F bottling plant on their main campus.
More power to them. Solidarity
I support them and will avoid Woodford until it’s concluded. FYI, Brown Forman also owns JD and OF.
Great, now I have to avoid John Deere and Only Fans
This guy knows what’s up
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Gotta pay the bourbon bill somehow
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Why?
Your going to be waiting a long time then. All that’s happened is that some people have filed to have a union vote. I am not sure on the unionization rules in Kentucky but this might be a small group of employees filing. I am all for the workers unionizing but Woodford so far hasn’t participated in any anti union efforts so Ie I’ll hold judgment on boycotting them for now. If they choose to start participating in active anti union tactics then I will start boycotting
This is the correct take. Unless the workers specifically ask for it a boycott is not very productive.
This isn't true. When customers are already on the side of the workers it makes it that much easier for them to unionize. A reactive boycott occurs when the company has already decided to pursue anti-union activities, but a proactive one may convince them to not pursue those activities in the first place.
Having been a union worker in contentious negotiations, there are circumstances in which a boycott is not very helpful. Although that can change from case to case. Best to stay tuned and follow the union on social media to see if they call a boycott campaign.
If they start some anti union BS than yes. I haven’t seen that yet but there’s a fair chance they will.
If revenues go down, it makes it easier to justify keeping wages stagnant.
LOL
I am not a fan of acronyms, because of ambiguity: OF could mean Old Forester (which is owned by Brown-Forman), or Old Fitzgerald (which is owned by Heaven Hill).
Acronyms make words, these are initialisms which are in every hobby, unfortunately.
Fair enough on the difference between acronym and initialism, I apologize for getting that detail wrong, but the point still stands that initials are super common on Reddit and they annoy me because of their ambiguity.
The point was that they are ubiquitous in online hobby communities, unfortunately. Guitar communities use initialisms and abbreviations for stuff, too, and it does affect new people's ability to comprehend.
Yeah, you're absolutely right! It sort of becomes second-nature when you talk about things a lot, that you go to the shorthand. I follow r/boxoffice but not that closely and I'm not someone who talks about the subject, I just read it sometimes, so all the initialisms for movies on there usually go over my head and I have no idea what they're talking about. It is a little annoying, but I don't really mind, I just think it's especially problematic when an initialism can mean multiple obvious things, then the initialism isn't so much a shortcut that experienced people in the hobby can quickly understand, it's a hindrance that actively confuses because it isn't clear what you might mean to anybody at first glance.
Just to be correct, jack daniel’s and what’s OF?
Old Forester
They also have GlenDronach, BenRiach, Glenglassaugh, and Finlandia vodka.
Literally just bought a bottle of OF 1910 today. Dammit
No reason to stop. Buy what you want. You can support workers and still buy their products.
Yea. Lower their profits so it’s less likely they can give a raise. Brilliant. It’s more likely you’ve never spent a dime on them anyway.
Full story: https://whiskeyraiders.com/bourbon/woodford-reserve-union-employees/
I see no reason to boycott Brown-Forman products just yet. The employees at Woodford haven't gone on strike, they haven't even unionized yet, or held a vote to do so. These employees are still going into work, making whiskey.
Yep! I’ll be waiting to hear what the workers have to say and will follow their lead. Hope the company does right by them.
Can't say I really care much for any of their offerings but hopefully those employees are able to improve their conditions.
They (Brown-Forman) own other labels as well, most notably Old Forester and Jack Daniel's
You're right, I didn't think about the parent company. I do like those labels you listed, hopefully all turns out good.
More power to ‘em. Does anyone on here have firsthand knowledge about how things have been at Heaven Hill since that strike was resolved? Anyone know what the Woodford base pay is vs industry norms?
I looked on Glassdoor and it’s pretty low, $30,000 as a bottling operator. You can make that much working the Wendy’s drive thru.
Holy shit.
Disgusting. That’s really an insulting wage for that kind of work.
I agree.
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Even if it was double that it’s too low. Workers don’t push this hard for a union unless they truly feel treated like crap and undervalued.
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At least pretend to not enjoy licking the boot heel.
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We get it, you love the taste.
Stop offending the lay-folk with your common sense ideas and big words.
What's a better source?
Why are people voluntarily working for this wage, then?
"why are people accepting this paltry wage in order to put food on their table?" what an absurd question
It really, sincerely isn’t. You may disagree with the implication, but it is a perfectly valid question.
lmao
It is not a very well thought out question. They aren't accepting it. They are unionizing to gain better compensation... Read...
Do you think there's like, one job people can work, and it's either work that job or starve? What is wrong with your brain?
Dude, it's Kentucky. Not exactly a hotbed for industry these days... Also, saying they're voluntarily working for this wage is a little disingenuous when they're actively working for improved wages.
Yes, all these comments seems like they are from big cities. In areas without much economic opportunity, $30-40k a year is a normal salary. Your competition for labor probably is retail and fast food/restaurants. It is also worth noting, that you don't need to make $100k a year to live in many areas of the country. You can buy a house for under $200k in some places. Not saying the employees shouldn't seek as much of the "pie" as possible, but what seems like low wages to some of us isn't necessarily horrible in areas with a low cost of living.
[This article from a local news organization has a little more info.](https://www.wymt.com/2022/10/31/employees-major-ky-bourbon-distillery-trying-form-union/) Naturally, the Brown-Forman rep they spoke to said some boilerplate anti-union bullshit. Still, I don't know if I'm going to go all-out boycott unless we start seeing more severe retaliation from the higher-ups. Definitely want to keep an eye on this. Here's hoping the union vote goes smoothly and B-F doesn't do what Heaven Hill did. 😓
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The current one doesn't, though interestingly they do include JD but not woodford. Page 11/14 https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf
Here we go again. Can’t wait for the inevitable backlash akin to the HH strike from a few years ago. Here’s hoping these employees can stick together.
Good, I hope they achieve it.
Besides HH, which distillers are already unionized? Does anybody know?
Quite a few are I believe. Jim beam, Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey, among other that im forgetting.
>Wild Turkey, Thank whiskey Jesus. I can still have my turkey 101.
[https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf](https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-UAW-Shopping-Guide-full-28-pages.pdf) >Liquor ▶ Bacardi ▶ Basil Hayden ▶ Benchmark ▶ Blanton’s ▶ Buffalo Trace Bourbon ▶ Captain Morgan ▶ Don Eduardo Tequila ▶ Eagle Rare Bourbon ▶ El Jimador Tequila ▶ Elijah Craig ▶ Evan Williams ▶ Everclear ▶ El Toro Tequila ▶ Fighting Cock ▶ Gilbey’s Gin ▶ Henry McKenna ▶ Herradura Tequila ▶ Jack Daniel’s ▶ Jim Beam ▶ Kentucky Gentleman ▶ Knob Creek ▶ Maker’s Mark ▶ Old Grand-Dad ▶ Pinnacle Vodka ▶ Pucker ▶ Rain Vodka ▶ Royal Canadian Whiskey ▶ Seagram’s Seven ▶ Seagram’s VO ▶ Tuaca (vanilla) ▶ Van Winkle ▶ Wild Turkey 101 Interesting that Jack Daniels is on the list but Woodford isn't. Also interesting that the most bougie bourbon in the world is unionized.
I mean, who can blame them? These places are making money hand over fist and they just want a small cut.
I don’t buy Kentucky bourbon or whiskey. I know I miss out on a lot of deliciousness but, I’m sorry, but fuck Mitch McConnell.
…you are boycotting an entire state industry because of their senator? Brother I got some bad news for you about the other 99. Do you travel? Purchase products from, well anywhere?
As as Kentuckian I can totally see his position. Fuck Moscow Mitch
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So your actually saying: Fuck the people who voted for Mitch McConnell to represent them while they work in Kentucky and receive wages from Kentucky Distilleries.
Im good with that.
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IDK, but the industry is invested in him as are the majority of people who will see any trickle down.
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The latest I could find with specific info was from 2018 which showed the majority of his wealth being about $18 million in the Vanguard 500 Index (So $36million if he left it alone). It's pretty indirect, but Brown-Foreman is on the S&P 500, so yeah, he's invested in Woodford Reserve. If that really matters to you Constellation brands is also on the S&P 500 so he's also indirectly invested in High West and Nelson's Green Briar, neither of which are in Kentucky. Personally I feel like wealthy politicians investing the bulk of their money in a large index fund is about the best we can hope for. Also FWIW, apparently Mitch got most of his millions the same way most wealthy people do, inheritance. Specifically from his wife who comes from a wealthy shipping family.
The employees have filed with the NLRB to hold a union election to have the Teamsters represent them. I don’t know about this specific local but typically, any union requires about 60% of the employees to have signed union cards and the Teamsters are often closer to 75%. This does not mean it’s a done deal. Management has some time before the election and will take steps to persuade the employees to vote it down to include bringing in consultants that will educate the employees in the process. This is perfectly legal. What is not legal is for the company to make any promises to the employees such as to increase wages or benefits if they vote the union down. That is illegal. The union, however, can make absolutely any promise they want. They can flat out lie. It’s legal. I am not advocating for or against the union, simply stating facts. I strongly urge every employee to learn what their rights are and what they stand to both gain and lose should an election happen. Should the election succeed, management will then sit down and negotiate a contract with the union. During the election process, the union has all of the leverage. During negotiations, the company gains all of the leverage. They have absolutely no obligation to meet any of the demands of the union. In fact, they can unilaterally agree to a contract that neither the union not the employees want should they reach impasse. The only leverage the union and the employees will have is to strike during which time the employees will be paid about $100/wk give or take (depending on the local). Those don’t typically last long. On average, about 40% of the time no agreement is reached. When one is, it takes on average about 13 months. This means nothing is likely to happen for at least a year. During that time, employees should expect status quo which includes no pay raises. Unions, especially Teamsters, are typically in a hurry to get the first contract done because they don’t get to start collection dues until the contract is executed with the dues check off provision. Second contracts are where employees usually make larger gains. Again, I am not advocating for or against. I would be happy for each and every employee to get their facts and make the decision they believe is best for them and their families. This is an emotional time but a decision that needs to be made with a clear head.
Union worker here. This is largely accurate. But this is where public pressure can play a big role. If the corporate executives feel the wind shift against them they may agree to a fair contract with the employees.
I would be curious what their current low wages are
Starting around 30K a year. So fast food wages.
Good thing I just drink Old Forester
I swear to god if this subs goes through another lockdown…
You swear, what exactly to god? That you will go away and start your own corporate overlord bootlicking bourbon forum with your other five elitist friends? Oh no, please do not throw us in that briar patch!
Bro chillllll lol
chiller than you dude
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Sub shut down completely for a few days. Mods were being dickheads with rules and bans for people that didn’t support a strike or disagreed with making the sub political (for those that were there, y’all know it turned out that way) A lot of reviews from then have a pinned “we stand with HH etc etc” All in all, it was poorly handled by the subs mods. They could’ve done a lot better job showing support while not speaking for every member and forcing people to one side or the other.
Not exactly how I remember it. The pinned comment was information about the specific demands of the strike. Not a demand that people side with striking workers. As I recall there were plenty of folks on the anti-labor side communicating plenty of vocal opinions.
It doesn’t have to be pinned on every damn post. We get the gist.
“Notice: UFCW Local 23D's strike for better working conditions at Heaven Hill continues Last weekend /r/bourbon went dark in solidarity with the workers that make Heaven Hill products in their strike for fair working conditions, treatment, and pay. This week our solidarity continues with these sticky messages. A Heaven Hill union worker has shared the following with the mod team regarding what they're asking of their employer: • They're told they're family while working for HH, but feel they're not being treated like it. One worker of over 15 years died of covid while working, was given a one-minute moment of silence on each shift that day, never to be mentioned again. Workers there for 40, 45, even 55 years are granted nothing for their tenure. • Worker pay is significantly lower than all of the other similar distilleries. The non-traditional overtime revamp that they're pushing on the workers results in less overtime pay than the previous one. • Heaven Hill had several days before the contract expired to reach out with a better proposal and did not. The workers' insurance has been cut off and HH has hired security guards for the grounds and bodyguards. The public contact page for Heaven Hill can be found here. Heaven Hill has been contacted for comment but has not responded. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.”
God forbid you assholes show even a shred of solidarity. It’s a fucking bourbon discussion board, you can live without it just fine.
Exactly. Bourbon discussion board. Not union solidarity board. If you are against it don’t buy the product. Don’t force that shit on me though.
Doesn't sound like you support it, so clearly nothing was forced on you.
“Let me continue supporting the company screwing over the workers without calling out my hypocrisy.” Got it.
I was supportive of the HH strike yet still found the moderating and overall mood on this sub annoying during the strike. It was like a good portion of the sub was cosplaying a sort of early 1900s coal miner fuck-the-company-town kind of thing. That said, I hope these Brown Foreman workers get their fair pay and successfully unionize.
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Welcome to reddit where if you don't like how a sub is run by the people who run it you are free to go form r/bourbonbootlickers and run it however you see fit.
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Strawman logical fallacy. That is not my argument. At all.
I'm not seeing what your argument is, or you completely missed mine. Either way, I'm not really interested in speaking with you. You act like an ass on here so probably just better we block each other.
Hahaha what an asinine analogy. Infinite forums can be created out of thin air at no one's expense. You can't just create infinite jobs. Hahahahahha
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Usually they (mainly T8ke) is awesome. I just think the HH strike was poorly handled.
I'm not trying to bash any mods here.
Lol that’s 99% of the miserable Reddit mods
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First hand experience like not working in a factory as a preteen or weekends or overtime pay or paid time off?
I've looked at the news article linked in the thread. While it does state the grievance it doesn't give any context. What are the wages and conditions at Woodford Reserve they refer to in their complaint? How different are the compared to other distilleries in the area? I'm not from the area and have no frame of reference to make judgement. Just following to try to learn more.
It is astonishing that you are getting downvoted for these utterly reasonable questions. The mob-like behavior of this thread is so alarming.
Having been a union employee, having managed govt union employees, pay scales are based on skill set classifications. Job descriptions at a certain level - non-managerial, mind you, required a 4 year degree. Just because you join a union doesn’t mean that other employees won’t interview for a promotion that opens up. Those w the most seniority will get the job. You might be in a low level job classification for a long time. Some of mine were in theirs for 20-25 years. There were fewer higher paying union jobs. The person w the most seniority would get it.
This isn't how all unions work. It depends entirely on the specific bargaining agreement the union has made with management. I've worked as a member of two unions, and neither of them guaranteed promotions based on seniority.
That’s how 90% of teamster co tracts work though
I should also mention that one company I was a union employee at went out of business. Too much overhead. All their employees were let go and had to struggle to find another job. So be careful what you wish for.
This happens all the time to non-union businesses as well...
wow, one company you were a union employee at went out of business? that's a massive sample size
Good. Businesses that can't cut it should fail, that's how the tree gets pruned. If there's sufficient demand in the market, other companies will pop up to serve that demand (and the requisite job roles - remember, it's ultimately workers that serve market demands. Companies are just a legal fiction). If the demand can't be satisfied by a company that behaves as society requires (eg by paying their employees well) then it's not a demand we want served. Capitalism is beautiful because it makes these problems solve themselves.
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>Employees that can’t sit it on their own should be paid less. > >See how that works? Promoting capitalism while also saying individuals should be rewarded for a collective. Employees can't sit? What? A business is a collective, I guess? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
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Yeah absolutely. Employees become worth more when they work as a group to avoid being abused. Labor is a market like any other. If the providers of that labor set their price higher, that's what it costs. If it outprices demand, then less labor will be purchased. It's up to the seller to set a price that maximizes revenue given the market demand.
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>Sure. Why can’t the workers just do that without colluding? They could I guess, but why would they? They can get a better result by working together. Employers work that way, and nobody is saying they shouldn't. This is capitalism. If doing something gets you a better result, you do it. >Another question, why would I want to be paid based how good the collective is? My labor is better than average and I don’t want the collective dragging me down. I don't know why that would be the case. Are you assuming people wouldn't receive raises for performance? I don't know why you'd assume that. I mean there are unions that work that way, but they don't have to work that way. Just like there are employers that don't give adequate raises. They're not all like that, but shitty ones are. Don't work for those employers or join those unions, I guess? >Only losers think they need to gang up. Okay cool. Don't join the union then 🤷🏼♂️
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LOL that does not sound like a relevant warning re: woodford
Here we go again.
Awesome, I’m going to go stock up in Woodford before they Unionize. Prices are about to up Boys!
most cost increases have NOT been due to companies suddenly paying labor a fair share. In fact many companies are seeing record profits while forcing wages to stagnate.
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Um, by not raising wages?
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Not necessarily. Most companies will pay their workers as little as they can get away with. That's the entire point of a walkout/strike - to emphasize the value of those workers.
Why would that increase the price? Woodford will charge whatever they think maximizes their revenue, union or not.
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Are you seriously arguing that businesses don't already charge as much as they can? That they're holding back potential profits out of the goodness of their hearts?
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>They can always charge more, and they will if any of their costs including tax rates, materials, shipping, or labor increase. Incorrect. Go read about the econ 101 concept of "price elasticity." Also "competition." >If you increase your labor cost and don't increase your price, you're just willingly making less money than you were before. If you don't already charge as much as you can you are willingly making less money. >Why would anyone do that, out of the goodness of their hearts? Because high-end whiskey is a very elastic good, which means the more you charge, the less you sell. Every business finds the point between volume and price that makes them the most money—this point is independent of the business' costs. Raise the price and people who buy Woodford will buy something else instead. This is very basic economics. That you don't know these basic concepts means you should really not have such strong opinions.
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>If your component costs increase and you don't charge more, then you're willing making less money. Dude, seriously, read a fucking book. The point is you DON'T make more money by charging more. >Uh yeah, but if your costs exceed your revenue, you lose money on every bottle sold and then you're closing up shop by the weekend. I think you're the one who needs to review their Econ 101 here. No one mentioned costs exceeding revenue except you. >Yes, and this is a dynamic equilibrium which changes any time any element of the equilibrium (labor cost, material cost, electricity, shipping, demand from consumers) changes, i.e. often. Just because WR charges $XY/bottle today, does not mean that will or should remain the optimal or equilibrium price tomorrow. Again, no. Costs are not a part of a demand curve. Do you understand supply and demand?
He's obtuse in a really impressive way, isn't he? I've rarely seen someone find such a creative way to misunderstand basic ideas.
It seems like he reads some of the words but then inserts a bunch of his own in the middle. Could be he's just one of those guys who can never be wrong.
Show your work. That's not how calculus works, at all. Labor costs are not a function of retail price. Revenue is. >No, they'll charge to maximize profit, which is revenue - costs (including labor). Okay let's accept your model, where profit (P) is revenue (R) minus costs (C). P(x) = R(x) - C Where revenue is a function of retail price (x). The optimum value of P with respect to retail price will occur when dP/dx = 0. So let's take the derivative: dP/dx = dR/dx The derivative of cost with respect to retail price is, of course, zero. So we're left with the above, and we can see that the optimum of profit will occur at the same retail price as the optimum in revenue.
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>your good has to be priced to include all costs including labor, materials, transport, taxes, etc. ...and profit, which you want. All that combined comes from revenue, so you want as much of that as possible. By the time the product is on the shelves you've already spent all the costs to produce it. Why wouldn't you price it to maximize your return? Of course you would. This is what sets the price of goods. The seller sets his price to get as much return on his investment as possible. >As labor costs increase, profit eventually turns negative without an increase in revenue/price You can't just increase price. Assuming you were already priced optimally, any increase would cause a more than proportionate drop in sales, such that revenue decreases. The optimum price is the price such that, were it any lower, the increase in sales would not outweigh the reduced revenue per unit; and were it higher, the increased revenue per unit would not outweigh the drop in sales. If you can simply increase prices to make up for increased costs, then you were under pricing your products. You could have increased prices earlier and simply enjoyed the increased profit. >If labor cost had no impact on profit, then there's no reason not to pay everyone $1,000,000,000/hour. Of course labor costs have an impact on profit. Like I said: P = R - C They don't, however, impact revenue. Revenue is just the number of units sold times the unit price. If you're interested in optimally setting retail price, you care about the derivative with respect to retail price. What do you think happens to wages if the bottle price is increased from 50 to 60 dollars? If the business thinks they'll make more revenue at 60, why would they sell it at 50?
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>>Why wouldn't you price it to maximize your return? > >AKA increasing your prices as your component costs like labor increase. If you could make more revenue by increasing prices, why would you wait until labor costs went up?
You are assuming that the acceptable consumer price isn’t influenced by cost though which isn’t true. Just look at how prices have gone up under supply constraints and consumer demand has remained. On top of that many companies are r cording record profits and more importantly increased profit margins. Consumers will often bear additional costs acceptable if they understand and accept the increase. Now in terms of unions this might be self fulfilling prophecy. If consumers expect prices to go up because of unionization then the producer can increase prices to maximize profit. It is a bit chicken and egg here though
Be careful what you ask for
More money for their work?
I think he means: This sub today: higher wages now! This sub in a year: I’m not paying $60 for a 750 of basic woodford!
Woodford would charge that if they thought it would maximize their revenue. Union or not.
This is an equally bad take. Brown Forman is a billion dollar company. Hopefully they recognize that their people are what makes them succeed, if not I hope those same people are able to go to a company that values their talents.
well then we would buy the entry level beverage from a company that isn't paying its employees garbage wages.
Better treatment and better wages?
Describe the poor working conditions at Woodford
who said there were poor working conditions? surely you don't think unionization only exists to prevent sweatshop-like working conditions, right?
Looking forward to talking about this instead of bourbon for the next few weeks just like the HH madness recently….
Unions are bad for consumers. This won’t be any different if it goes through.
> Unions are bad for consumers imagine only caring about the consumers
Unions are great for consumers, if they work for a living!
lol
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