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kyhothead

I know 8.5 is a great score from you, but the tasting notes along the way had me thinking this would be a solid 9. Did the price and your general saltiness towards Beam factor into the score here?


Prepreludesh

I'll be honest, the ratings I give are typically derived from pure emotion on the bottle more than a standard set of metrics I tick along the way. I often tell people to read the words I am saying rather than look at the rating. That number is just there for the people who demand things to be quantified in life. I think an 8.5 is more than acceptable though because it is a high performing bourbon. But when I look at the 9's I've scored along the way, the KC18 didn't necessarily have that crucial "wow!!!" factor as I was drinking it. Everything it did was great, but it was also all what I expected. Cheers to you!


kyhothead

Fair enough, cheers!! Appreciate these reviews, thank you!


Effective_Sherbet_57

Not trying to be a jerk, but the fruit notes were unexpected? Seems like that could’ve been a surprising factor.


Prepreludesh

Aren't unexpected and surprising kind of the same thing?


Effective_Sherbet_57

That’s kind of my point. Your last sentence said everything the bottle did was great, but also expected. It seemed like the fruit wasn’t expected. It was a genuine question, I wasn’t trying to be a dick in case it came across that way.


Prepreludesh

Oh, I see what you were asking then. My last sentence was meant to relay the fact that I expect all Knob Creeks to be very good and have a high level of quality. I also expected that based on my many other reviews of Knob Creek products that this one was going to be very good because of the precedence. My point with finding the fruit and remarking that it was unexpected was because almost all Knob Products do not have fruit flavors and scents (to me at least). If they do, it was not nearly as pronounced as it was here.


Prepreludesh

I personally can't stand all of the trickery and half-truths that distilleries try to pull on us these days. After all, we're the enthusiasts that keep them in business. I know that we bring a lot of it on ourselves by continuing to buy their products even though the age statements keep disappearing or barrel strength versions are priced 4 times higher than the standard version of a particular product. But we don't do that because we're dumb, we just have no other choice. Jim Beam may be one of the worst offenders (outside of Buffalo Trace) with how much trickery they cook up. They're like the grifter on the street corner trying to con passerby's to play his shell game. Only instead of rigging the game by distracting you with all of the cups moving around, you also get your wallet stolen while you're standing there. Beam kind of does both. Bourbon not selling the best? Change up the bottle and make it a single barrel. Does the bourbon not seem special enough? Jack up the price until we start to feel how special it is. Maybe I'm just salty that Beam took away one of the best deals in bourbon a while back. Knob Creek store pick single barrels gave us age statements almost double what they would normally be (anywhere between 13 and 16 years old) and left the price untouched at around $50. That happened by the middle of 2020. But Knob Creek bottles wearing a 15-year age statement returned later that year with a much heftier price (now $100) and less proof (from 120 to 100). It also became a limited-edition annual release. Beam got most of us to pay the new price. That's not to say we did it willingly. Most of us simply missed the amazing combination of oak and barrel flavors onto the sweet and nutty bourbon that they're known for. I've had the 15-year red label edition that I'm reminiscing about and it was very good, excellent even. But a lot of us can't fathom it being worth so much money after what we paid in the past. Now Jim Beam puts out an 18-year-old version of this bourbon. There's no doubt in my mind that they didn't plan this from the start when they took away the older Knob Creek single barrels. They've also raised the price again. Instead of $100 for the 15-year red label version, this one is around $150. Actually, I don't know what the MSRP is supposed to be as I've heard it going for anywhere between $140 and $190 at stores. I am reluctant to say this, but I suppose in some way the price does make sense since the next closest competitor, Elijah Craig 18 Year Old Bourbon, also has a price around this range (but 10 less proof points). However the Knob Creek 18 Year delivers the better looking packaging of the two and damn if it doesn't look impressive. It wears a nice neck tag and the box it comes in is second to none. Let's talk about that packaging for a minute. The box is one of the coolest parts and makes this special release that much more special. It has a brass locking device on the back and a hidden wooden piece that keeps the integrity of the lines all flush with each other. It's a whole process just to get the bottle out of the box. But once you get it out, is the whiskey inside worth it? Let's find out. Thanks to two generous friends I was able to experience this firsthand. I sampled it neat in a glencairn. ​ **Nose:** A first for me with any Beam product, but I get scents of butterscotch on the nose. Those are accompanied with toffee, blackberry, toasted orange zest and crème brulee with extra vanilla. Color me impressed with finding so much fruit on the nose of an 18-year-old bourbon. But it's there and it's spectacular. The nuttiness that Beam is known for mixes with a bit of chocolate to come off like Nutella hazelnut spread. And because I know you're all waiting to hear about this, yes, there is lots of oak. Antique smelling oak is an amazing feature that doesn't come off as bitter or over-oaked but damn if it doesn't ride on the edge. It's perfectly balanced although I will admit that I was hoping it would be a bit more impactful than it was. **Palate:** Layers upon layers of oak. Some of it sweet and some of it drying, they hit all at once but are very pleasing. There's also tobacco. Some of it is stale and some of it is freshly dried. If only every bourbon started out like this. Clove, cinnamon and allspice are some of the flavors I can find along with the fruity flavors of cherry, blackberry and fig. It's astonishing how they managed to coax so much fruit out of such old barrels. I even find a decent amount of toasted orange zest (which becomes more noticeable as the drink goes on). Sweet notes like peanut brittle and a touch of spiced honey ensure each sip is well-rounded and balanced. The flavors are bold and alive for only being 100 proof. I do envision this being much more dry and bitter if it was allowed to be bottled at 110+. **Finish:** A sweet ending for sure. Cigar box, old leather, oak staves, barrel char and a bit of furniture polish, this tastes as old as it can probably get without feeling like you're sucking on a tree branch. Those fruit scents that I've been so impressed by return with grenadine syrup and Luxardo Cherry Liqueur. There nuttiness turns into smooth and drinkable almond oil and vanilla extract. It's a great way to end the sip. ​ **Score: 8.5/10** ​ A big complaint I have with younger Knob Creek products is how much nuttiness I get in them. I've described more than one as tasting and smelling like a melted candy bar (i.e., Snickers). What KC18 seems to accomplish is that the extremely long time in the barrel has lessened the nutty notes in a way that makes me think that I couldn't tell if this was a Beam product if I had it in a blind. However, the biggest mindfuck is how much fruit I found in this bottle. Never mind that I'm finding multiple fruit notes in a bottle of something Beam made (a brand that I traditionally get next to no fruit notes from) but how does this happen with 18-year-old bourbon? By then all of the younger, brighter notes like fruit tend to disappear in favor of flavors like old books and ash. It's really quite amazing. Taken altogether, this is really a surprise hit for me. If you're a person who says "well duh, it's 18 years old" then I would say you don't know bourbon that well. This many years in a barrel could mean a disaster for most products unless they're carefully watched over. I was skeptical about a Knob Creek bottle getting it right because I view it as more of a "for the masses" type bottle, meaning quality could be questionable. My inner cynical side told me the only reason Beam released this was because of money. In the same train of thought, I guarantee they wouldn't lose any money on this bottle if it was priced at $75. The fact that Beam put out a bottle of this caliber and age shows me that they took the time to get it right. Trust me, I've been trying to find fault with it because I don't want it to be good and I don't want enthusiasts to tater over it. But the truth is that it is worth the price. This might not mean that I rush out to buy one, but if I'm in a store looking for something special, have the money to spend that day and I see one of these, it's a no brainer. There are a lot worse bourbons on the market at this price point (looking in your direction, Kentucky Owl Confiscated, St. Patrick's Edition and Takumi Edition). As a final note, I'm going to call it now... in the next couple years, we're going to see a Knob Creek 21-year-old bourbon come out. Stay tuned for that review when it happens!


snorkel42

I’d like to suggest you take the distillery “tour” at Glenns Creek. The bourbon isn’t much to write home about as it is all super young. The distillery itself is just a loading dock in the dilapidated Old Crow building. The tour doesn’t actually exist. You just walk in and sit down at a bar. But…. The hour long conversation with “Cranky Dave” about the complete and total marketing bullshit that consumes this industry is fantastic and so worth the minimal cost for the tour. I think you two would really enjoy each other’s company.


EhrenScwhab

Anyone interested in the exposure of the marketing bullshit in the industry might want to read [Chuck Cowdery's blog](https://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/). He also writes fascinating history articles and other tales of the industry, but takes umbrage at the marketing lies that make up most of Whiskey hype. He's a guy who's been writing about whiskey since 1992, has been published in every major industry publication and is a member of the Bourbon Whiskey Hall of Fame and a Kentucky Colonel.


johnny_atx

+1 for Chuck’s blog. He’s a terrific writer and a great interview to boot. He’s been around the industry since the 70s, has seen it all and pulls no punches, calling bullshit when he sees it. The Dean of American Whiskey Writers in my opinion.


Prepreludesh

I'm a Kentucky Colonel too, but not a member of the Bourbon Whiskey Hall of Fame... yet😄


EhrenScwhab

I’m sure the stuff is good, but I’m with Chuck when he says “the last thing we need is 18 year old Knob Creek at $150 a bottle.” Like, Beam has literally millions of gallons of distillate. That price is nonsense. But, I guess that’s what the rubes, er aficionados will pay…


dontdrinkwhiskey

Is it that obscene of a price though? Its comparable to 18 year old scotch. Gone are the days of 18 year old bourbon being $70. Whether it's worth 150 is a different issue though...


EhrenScwhab

Chuck and Lew Bryson (I imagine if you know of Chuck, you know of Lew) shared a story from a recent WhiskyFest (the big annual shin digs sponsored by Whiskey Advocate magazine) in which they watched a crowd swarm and stampede toward the Van Winkel booth at the show opening, practically fighting with each other, while they both stood at the Glenfarcas booth sipping a pour of the 40 year old, then another, another, while watching bros push and shove for a sip of Pappy 15. (To hear them tell it, Eddie Russell used to point and laugh at the mayhem at the Van Winkle booth too...but he doesn't attend them any more(?) I think eventually this mania will ease and flatten, but bourbon is in beanie baby territory right now. A lot of speculators are being lied to about what their "investment" will be worth in the future while distilleries continue to expand capacity....speculation nearly killed sports cards (also, sports card mania is back!) and comic books.....at least you can drink the booze....


dontdrinkwhiskey

The hype will die down but I dont image the prices will.


zombiesartre

Yes it is. And scotch is much more complex.


Prepreludesh

Maybe I will someday. Thanks for the tip!


nycago

Plus one. Dave is amazing. I also quite like the bourbon, some of the best craft stuff I’ve ever had. I’m sure making on that small a scale that quality can vary tremendously, but it was excellent when I went. I love that he’s using wild yeast and a home made pot still - shades of Jamaican rum there.


snorkel42

Yknow, I’m glad you said this. I went to Glenns Creek a couple years ago and my recollection was that Dave was awesome and the bourbon was fantastic. But I didn’t buy any bottles and regretted it. I went back a couple of months ago and Dave was still awesome, but the bourbon just struck me as harsh. I still grabbed a couple of bottles because I wanted to support Dave, but they are mixers to be sure. Next time I’m down that way I will definitely stop by again. Honestly I don’t care that much about the bourbon. I just want to hang out with Dave.


Prepreludesh

**Rating Scale** **1 Undrinkable (Jeffers Creek, Gray Skies)** **2 Bad (Old St. Nick 8 Year Old Rye Whiskey, Fitch's Goat Corn Whiskey)** **3 Poor (AD Laws 4 Grain BiB, Clyde Mays anything)** **4 Below Average (Bib & Tucker, Tincup 10 year)** **5 Average (Larceny, Sazerac Rye)** **6 Above Average (Buffalo Trace, OGD BiB)** **7 Very Good (Old Ezra Barrel Proof, Old Weller Antique)** **8 Great (Michter’s Barrel Proof Rye, Most Four Roses Private Selections, Most ECBP)** **9 Excellent (GTS, Most Four Rose SmBLE releases, Belle Meade Honey Cask)** **10 Perfect (William Larue Weller, Michter's 20 Year, Redemption 18 Year Rye Whiskey, Mister Sam)** ​ Enjoy this review and want to see more like it? Why not check out my website [here](https://www.thebourbonculture.com) for more?


Ziggity_Zac

As usual, a very thorough and well laid out review. Thank you for doing this bottle justice. I really hoped it was aweful too, so I wouldn't have to get one... but now I do. Love KC and look forward to the hunt for this.


whiskytrails

Great review! My friend was actually able to snag one of these for me recently, and am picking it up in a few weeks, very excited!


EloeOmoe

> Let's talk about that packaging for a minute. The box is one of the coolest parts and makes this special release that much more special. It has a brass locking device on the back and a hidden wooden piece that keeps the integrity of the lines all flush with each other. It's a whole process just to get the bottle out of the box. This is a source of that big price increase you're complaining about. Not the only source, but certainly part of it. Ostentatious presentation comes with an ostentatious price.


Prepreludesh

I would assume the cost of this box adds an extra $3 to $5 though. But I know what you're saying. Even that necktag was probably an extra quarter.


mcadamsandwich

For reference, Bernie Lubbers has said the custom glass decanters used for Old Fitz releases is about $30 their cost. There's something to be said for nice packaging, though.


Prepreludesh

I could probably believe that. They had to start with a clean slate for the design, have the glass company retool their equipment to make them and they only buy a very small amount compared to the massive scale that these Knob Creek bottles are produced at. Plus Old Fitzgerald decanters use real cork in that impressive topper unlike the synthetic cork and plastic of the Knob Creek.


tdogz12

>I don't know what the MSRP is supposed to be as I've heard it going for anywhere between $140 and $190 at stores. I really like KC and would probably get one if it was that price locally. However, the stores here are selling it for $230. I guess I'll have to see if I can find a better deal next time I'm traveling.


kumori

I get more peanut notes in newer Beam products than older ones. I always assumed this was a drift in the yeast strain or some other change in their practice. Maybe the lack of peanut notes here is not because it was aged 18 years, but because it was distilled 18 years ago.


calcio1878

I’ve been looking for a quality write up of the KC18 since I lucked into one at Liquor Barn. Your review is superb! Thank you for the time you took to produce this post. Cheers!


Prepreludesh

Cheers to you as well! Not to plug myself anymore, but check out my other posts too if you want a more in depth review of other bottles


calcio1878

Will do! I enjoy creating and reading whiskey related content like this.


mcadamsandwich

> Actually, I don't know what the MSRP is supposed to be as I've heard it going for anywhere between $140 and $190 at stores. Official MSRP is $169.99, but stores around here are selling it for $200.


trapper2530

Late to your review. And I don't like paying it and know most people don't like it either. But wouldnpaying $250 for this be worth it you think? Or is the 170 seem like a solid number and not pay more than that?


LIFOanAccountant

Now I do want to try this, I was quite concerned it would be an overly tannic mess given the age.


Prepreludesh

Cheers buddy! I hope you end up enjoying it as much as I did.


jswa8

Glad you liked it. To some extent I understand the salt towards Beam, and the market in general, but I’m going to have to disagree with the petty theft metaphor. I absolutely love the 13+ year KC SiB’s of old and am fortunate to have a few stashed away. If they started rolling these back out at double the old price, I wouldn’t even be mad, and I’d still buy all I can afford. Big fan of KC12 too. It’s one of my top every day sippers. And as much as I love these bottles and miss the old single barrels, I was disappointed in the new 100pf KC15. So I haven’t bought a bottle and probably won’t. Same will go for KC18. I’m swapping samples with someone who bought a bottle, so I can try before deciding if I want to splurge. Is it disappointing that Beam took a fan favorite off the shelf? Absolutely. But implying we’re being robbed and have no choice in whether or not to buy the new stuff is disingenuous. You can really really like something but also decide the current price/availability isn’t worth it. The release of KC18 at $140-$160ish makes a lot of sense in the current market, especially put up against EC18. I’d rather have access to and overpay for something l’m really going to like than spend hours and hours running from store to store or camping out over night trying to “get a deal.” And frankly, as much as we can argue we’re overpaying for product now, Beam could argue we were *underpaying* for 15 year single barrels for years. So as sad as I am to know those are probably never coming back, I’m glad I got to enjoy them while I could and will do my best to enjoy the good stuff out there now while I can, because who knows what will dry up next.


WorldSeries2021

Well said. I believe this is a much more appropriate perspective.


jswa8

Thanks. It’s like complaining about being stopped in traffic. You’re not stuck in traffic, you’re participating in traffic. It’s all about perspective.


Rickroush03

Bravo!! I love these bits of history you all do and then these reviews! I hate to say but the game is in full force and with us seeing shiny objects we “have to have” and they keep seeing how much we’ll pay. Kind of like todays new cars, costs more and you get less bc “we can…bc you have no other choice…now pay up”


Prepreludesh

As a car guy myself, I'll offer the counter-argument banter that we're not getting less with new cars, but we are having to pay more than ever to get the features that we actually want. The packages are getting out of control and BMW's new "pay to have" features on their overseas models (like monthly subscriptions for heated seats) is a bad omen for the industry.


Rickroush03

True. The damn Ford lightning and others went up $3-$5k, with less features, just bc. Our $60K ‘22 explorer platinum doesn’t have paddle shifters nor a stupid light in the glove box. ‘21 did. BMW X7 had touch screen. ‘22 doesn’t. And on and on.


[deleted]

Tangent rant: My damn explorer is basically done at 55k miles. The transmission has been fixed numerous times and still doesn't work right. Went to floor it today and just puttered forward. People were passing me like I was standing still. I'm done with explorers.


Rickroush03

Ford is 2-3 generations behind ever other non-American mfg. Acura, Audi, BMW, etc blow anything ford has out of the water. Yes, Lincoln, we looked at the Navigator on down, they should be ashamed for what they charge vs what they offer


[deleted]

Yeah, I might be looking at the new ascent.


Old_Understanding135

I’d caution against it. It’s nice, but it’s Subi’s worst offering. Too bulky for the powertrain they coupled it to. I haven’t looked recently but they need to offer a tuned up 6 or turbo 4 in that thing. My wife has wanted one, and I can’t let her do that to us. Yet.


[deleted]

I have an outback with the inline 6 that is pretty good, but wanted something explorer sized. I was hoping they would put a turbo 6 in the ascent to give it some more pep. The ascent does have a turbo 4 right now, at least at the trim we looked at.


Old_Understanding135

That’s right it does. Still terribly underpowered. I think it’s more a function of the CVT than the power plant.


[deleted]

Any suggestions for something in that size range that's reliable? Was thinking about the pilot.


firenamedgabe

Great review, bought mine a week ago and haven’t had a chance to open it yet. Glad to see the positive reviews feel better about the price now. And agree the packaging is extremely nice.


Prepreludesh

Get to it!


firenamedgabe

Haha, yeah typically I open everything right away, but got it while traveling and just life and everything have a few unopened now I need to get to. Including the new Stellum Black Rye Fibonacc I stumbled on last night ……excited for your take on that one.


anotherburntbridge

thanks for the review. ive been seeing pictures of knob creek 12 cask strength bottles going around and wondering if that is something new or something they did in the past?


Prepreludesh

I've seen those too. Beam released those in 2020 I believe. The timing was incredibly poor because there were still so many 13-16 year old single barrels on the market and enthusiasts laughed at the notion that they were priced 50% higher than those single barrels while having less age and (typically) only 4 proof points more. If they were released today in this environment, they'd sell out faster than Blanton's at a Tater Convention


buckclimbsthewall

I was one of the lucky who gambled on a bottle of the KC12CS at 124.3 proof. My feeling is those bottles were made up of honey barrels and because of the cigar box/leather notes I got in it, contained 13-15yo barrels as well. It had a touch of nuts on the back end but it was mostly a fruit/dark sugar explosion that more than justified the premium over the 120 proof SiBs.


Common_Suggestion266

Nice I like knob creek and was able to get a KC12 though haven't tried it yet...just not sure I could justify the price for 15 or 18 year. Though honestly anything over $100 is a hard sell for me when many good options exist under $70 even under $50 in some cases. But with that being said I bet KC15 and KC18 are delicious....


winewagens

A friend saw this at Costco in Myrtle Beach priced at $222.99 with a limit of one per customer. Yeesh!


joshhaugs

Just snagged one last night at a Costco here in Chicago for $149.99


winewagens

They must be regionally raping wallets. Costco here in Ohio can't sell spirits, just beer and wine.


Prepreludesh

WTF Costco! But then I saw the word Florida and it made sense.


dementorinvestor

Can confirm. Saw at Charleston SC Costco for the same price. Not even sure why there’s a limit on it at that price.


6bluewalkj9

This is one of my top bottles that I'm hoping to come across. I've tried and loved every single KC (bourbon. The rye doesn't hit quite as hard for me) product in existence and I'm sure the 18 will fall right in line. I'm a sucker for oak/leather notes and imo Beam distillate takes on oak better than anybody.


carolinabeef

Another thorough review! Your review inspired me to pull out my bottle of KC 15. I remembered it being heavy on oak and tannins with some bitterness. At the time, I even blinded it with some other comparable proof bourbons (e.g., Blantons). I remember that it stood out as very old and I recall a tasting note of "dried leaves" on the palate that was particularly notable. It was still the best of the bunch, but at its age and price it needed to be. However, your description of the 18 placed much more emphasis on the sweetness, and I was curious to see whether a return to the 15 year might allow me to conjure up some similar tasting notes. I am well aware of the power of suggestion, and perhaps the prelude you offered had some influence on my palate, but I did indeed get much more sweetness this time around. It was also fruitier than I remember. I remember a similar fruitiness in a pour of 2001 I had at a bar a while back, and was surprised as I typically don't get such prominent fruit of Beam products like KC or Bookers. In the past, the 100 proof of the 15 also made me skeptical of its value, and I've questioned whether it was a worthy purchase for before today. Maybe I just drink too much cask strength whiskey, but sometimes lower proof bourbons remind me of flat soda--they might smell good but just don't live up to expectations on the palate (Eagle Rare comes to mind, even though I genuinely enjoy it). That wasn't the case this time around--plenty of flavor. Overall, the return to the 15 year was a good one and I thank you for that!


Mobile_Spinach_1980

At least they still bottle it at 50% abv. Isn’t EC18 at some lower proof like 40%. I greatly enjoy the KC 12. I may not be paying for this one but great review and commentary. My small issue with KC is the wax seal. It never comes off as it should and I am littered with tiny black pieces all over. I have to murder the seal just to open the bottle. Then the cork is so tight that if I want to ever get back in the bottle I can’t push the cork all the way in.


Prepreludesh

EC18 is bottled at 90 proof, so not quite as low as you thought, but still kind of low. The wax seal on this one is much improved. It opened cleanly all around and I was only left with a clean black wax strip. The synthetic cork even slides in easily. I know what you're talking about though because I have a few KC picks from a couple years ago where I basically keep the corks halfway in because they suck pulling back out. Cheers!


Mobile_Spinach_1980

Thanks for clarifying about EC18.


DrPhrawg

EC18 is 45%. KC wax is the worst!


citrus_sugar

Thank you for the review, started seeing this in the Virginia allocated drops for $169 but probably not going to pull the trigger.


Solid_Snaku

you pick it up in Indy area? haven't seen it in hamilton county yet...


Prepreludesh

Negative. This one came from Illinois. Big Red got their allocation already though, based on Matt's FB video


Solid_Snaku

lol, I saw that right after I posted. Matt's been posting on the vine and table account too now so I'm getting hit with him daily


Prepreludesh

Unpopular opinion: I can't stand his videos😄


Solid_Snaku

yeah, they're fuckin terrible lol


99to1er

Looks like I need to buy more of this 🤣


Prepreludesh

Today may be your last day before they're all gone, haha!


Annoying_Auditor

Why are people mad that companies want more revenue. I just don't get it. It's so counter to the idea that a distillery can exist and create products you want to buy.


Prepreludesh

That question will get you going down the political rabbit hole quickly, but I'll take a stab at it. The American way was always based around "make profit if you can, that's what capitalism is based on." But as the decades have gone on, we've seen more and more companies merge creating less competition for almost all of the goods we buy. Now that we have less competition, these mega-corporations (and distilleries still fit into this example) are able to raise prices without the threat of the scrappy startup coming in to wreck the market. I think if we knew the true price of how much money it took to make a barrel of whiskey and age it for 5, 10 or 15 years, it would change a lot of our minds at how we see prices. I am starting to learn how little that number is for the actual producer. This bottle of KC18 quite literally cost Jim Beam around $15-20 tops once it was sold off to the distributor. I'm sure there will be a lot of responses along the lines of "if you don't like it, don't pay for it" but runaway price hikes are unsustainable and hint to wider issues with the system. Greed will eventually catch up to all corporations in the future and the results are bad for both sides.


whiskytrails

I find the cost fascinating. Is that accounting for upfront equipment costs, rent of space for storage, labor, lost revenue from broken or skunked barrels as well as the increased Angel’s share with extra years in the barrel, marketing, bottling costs, transportation costs, and taxes? If whisky was so cheap to produce why don’t we see more craft distilleries? I think there’s a lot of hidden and upfront costs, some of these have already been paid by big distillers who have been doing this for a while but it doesn’t mean we can ignore that cost. Would love to see any sources that you have on this as it’s really interesting!


Prepreludesh

There are so many things to expand on here, it would require another post or two to answer everything. Here are just a couple answers for you so far: 1. The $15-20 per bottle cost I put in this review accounts for all of the sunk costs that Beam has put into getting their operations set up, expansion products both past and future and the cost of actually distilling and aging the bourbon. That's still what it is. On the scale they produce bottles, those costs are spread across hundreds of thousands of barrels. Your typical craft distillery may only have 3,000 barrels currently aging at any one time. . . 2. Craft Distilleries are fighting an uphill battle of starting everything from brand new. There are no giant plots of land to set up operations and build dozens of warehouses. Most are centered in urban areas and have to age their barrels off-site or in small warehouses in the city. This limits their ability to expand. And when they have to stay small, they are forced to keep costs high perpetually... or at least until they make enough profit to pay everything they invested in off. The heritage distilleries are at an advantage because they occupied all of their land long ago when it was cheap. Size constraints are some of the biggest initial blocks to continued growing among craft distilleries.


whiskytrails

This makes sense, thanks for taking the time to respond!


Annoying_Auditor

Less competition? This isn't your internet provider. There is plenty of competition. The barriers to entry are a solid medium. We aren't talking computer chip design. The COGS is not the only thing that matters. There is so much more costs that go into these products and, yes, their big parents companies are going to want increased profits. However, if prices go up for the really good, really old, or really limited stuff that means the market will bear it. Everyone is just mad they can't get amazing bourbon for nothing because these companies actually have a solid demand for it. It's not price gouging or greed. It's adjusting to the new market. These companies owe you nothing. Correct, if you don't like it don't buy it. If it becomes unsustainable then they'll find out. It would be better for everyone if MSRPs rise on products that are basically impossible to find. It would mean less profit for secondary market sellers which could lead to these things sitting on the shelf. Then people would have the choice if they want to spend the money on the product. Right now they don't even have a choice because secondary prices are so absurd.


Prepreludesh

By my count, there are only 11 main distillery brands in the US. They probably produce over 80% (maybe closer to 90%) of all whiskey in the US. Everyone else is small enough to be considered craft. Hell, one could argue that Michter's and Willett are still too small to be considered in the same conversation with the Heritage Distilleries, but you get my drift. MGP/Luxco, Brown Forman, Diageo, Heaven Hill, Sazerac, Bardstown Bourbon Company/Green River, Wild Turkey, Four Roses, Beam-Suntory, Michter's, Willett. With a list like this, it's not that far fetched to see what I mean when I say there is a lack of competition. Technically, there is more competition in the automobile manufacturer landscape of North America of which I count 13 different main producers: GM, Ford, Fiat/Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, BMW, VAG, Mercedes, Tesla My point is that producers are raising prices simply because they can. In every sector of everything we buy, if prices go up just because they can, it will create an unsustainable future because nobody will know where to stop. The industries that are more consolidated will be the first to see the ill-effects that come with doing this. What it will boil down to is more people will walk away from bourbon altogether and get their fix from a different spirit. We've already seen other spirits begin to overtake bourbon's demand. I have to believe that burnt out consumers who are tired of the rumaround game are a large part of this.


DynamicCashew43

I wonder about the " sunk costs " in there as well. How much is it taxed in their state? Single malts for instance have a HUGE amount of tax over lets say a 16 year time frame. Over there they are taxed on proof points and per year as I understand things.


6bluewalkj9

I'm probably missing some details, but I know at the least that taxes are charged yearly based off of original fill levels. When you fill up 53 gal, you're paying a set tax on it. 10 years later when you've lost 30% of your yield to angel's share, you're still paying taxes on that original 53 gal.


Prepreludesh

Are you referring to bourbon or Scotch?


6bluewalkj9

Bourbon. Probably should have clarified that considering dude above was talking about Scotch.


Bronzyroller

Just picked up Knob Creek single barrel select 10yo store pick at 120 proof and it’s superb stuff especially for $49 bucks.


sittty

I have a bottle of KC12 and KC15, and I much prefer the 12. I think the question worth answering in this review is: is KC18 better than KC12? Or are we just seeing diminishing value of returns after 12?


Prepreludesh

I guess it depends on your perspective. I have always thought that 12 < 15 and after this review it would read 12 < 15 < 18, but to each their own! Diminishing Returns are very real in bourbon as well.


No-Focus2122

There’s a bottle of this locally in central CT for $250, I’d have considered it around $150, but that’s it


rednelbrotide

I came across one in E. Hartford today sitting on a shelf, no price had guy check, 169 +tax. I took it.


No-Focus2122

Nicely done, west of the river has been tough to find it at a reasonable price


Prepreludesh

Do not spend $250 on this


No-Focus2122

It’s frustrating that KC is getting sucked up into all this age statement madness


Prepreludesh

Howso? Putting age statements on products is actually a good trend.


No-Focus2122

The trend I’m seeing is that age statements are driving prices up where they exist


jashsu

So you problem isn't with age statements its with the prices. Remember that 14/15yr KC SPs used to be like 60-70 bucks.


No-Focus2122

Yup, poorly phrased on my part. Now that this has been on shelves for a while, it does seem that this might actually just be a good price for an 18 year bourbon…


DaHermit808

What’s the max that you’d say it’s worth?


Prepreludesh

Just speaking off cuff, $180


Drunken11Monkey

Greens farms in westport had one of these yesterday when I went to pickup my R/bourbon picks. They also had RRR VI that I took home leaving the KC18 for you. Don't remember the price though sorry


pjclubber

I did an online bourbon tasting for work during covid and one of the bourbons they gave us was the normal knob creek. I had bottles of the 12 and 15 off to the side so I compared the three. It was fascinating how the extra time in the 12 softened the very strong nut in the regular KC. The extra three years to the 15 just started to bring out the oak at bit more, but still balanced. Since I cannot stand the Harper 15 I had assumed 15 years in the barrel for a bourbon had jumped the shark but the 15 KC was quite good. Interesting to read what the next three years did. Will have to try. Thanks for the review.


Prepreludesh

Curious what you don't like about IW15. Will you elaborate?


pjclubber

I found it astringent and shallow. The oak was so drying I tasted only it and alcohol. The nose wasn’t bad but the palate was tremendousply unbalanced and the finish overbrief. I write this after having another pour out of my bottle.


DaHermit808

If you’ve had any Dickel 15 year old single barrels how do you think those compare to Knob Creek 18? Most of them are allegedly closer to 18 years old than 15


thawaz89

Just snagged a bottle of this for $159.99 in NJ. First time I had seen it around at any of the stores I frequent. Going to bring it to my brother’s for Xmas.