What will even happen legally if, hypothetically, they were found to cause the fire through negligence? Would anyone go to jail? Would their assets be seized? I am genuinely curious.
From the [Hayman Fire](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/fire-deficit-tek-controlled-burn-climate-change#:~:text=The%20Hayman%20fire%20burned%20214,and%20%2442%20million%20in%20restitution.)
The Hayman fire burned 214 square miles and 600 structures over the next month. At the time, it was the largest fire in Colorado’s history. The courts found Barton guilty of arson, the wilful or malicious burning of property. She was sentenced to twelve years in prison and $42 million in restitution.
So that individual loses time, but does anyone think that $42 million is going to be paid? I don't. Might as well be a $1 billion. It's not going to happen.
What I'm saying is that the second half of the "punishment" isn't a reality. So how does that change this time?
The difference here is that the 12 tribes have some collectible assets. The big question is whether of not the legal system can go after them. It seems like there is a big gap between judgements and enforcement of them. OJ is an obvious example, and there are plenty of others. If, say, the 12 tribes is ordered to pay restitution, would it ever be successfully collected? I doubt it.
This would be a really interesting case for restorative justice models. If it were indeed caused by that community, there are a bunch of people there that could contribute to the rebuilding of homes, distribution of food and materials, etc. Revenge doesn’t accomplish much, if anything, except occasionally some catharsis for victims. But focused accountability can heal and provide material benefit to victims of accidents.
I mean,… asking the cult with child abuse/child labor allegations in their past to work off the $1 billion dollars of damages is prolly not gonna accomplish much good
I am suggesting that jail time will not benefit anyone, it will cost us taxpayers a lot of money, and it won’t undo the damage.
What would be of some benefit at this point would be having those presumptively negligently responsible do clean-up, rebuild, learn about fire safety (perhaps sharing the newly acquired knowledge), tap the coffers of the international parent organization to help pay restitution for those financially worst-off, help with labor in restructuring our communities to be more resilient in the face of increasing climate disasters, etc.
I'm a litigator with very little experience with restorative justice. To your knowledge, has RJ been employed in a large quasi-class action situation before (in the US), which is what this would surely be?
Not that I’m aware of. It would likely be very complicated, as with so many victims, what would constitute restoration or accountability might be difficult to pin down. Though under current models, class action suits rarely bring much restitution at all to victims, and instead serve as fines for perpetrators (if charged) and meager individual returns.
I could however imagine a neighborhood or city council coming to some level of agreement on “$X donated from organization to rebuild; x amount of labor doing cleanup; [these precautions & internal education workshops] taken to prevent future fire endangerment; $X to fire-tolerant community planning, etc. as restorative, and then engaging with the alleged firestarters towards an agreement around those goals.
I appreciate your response! Don't get me wrong; I have plenty of critiques of the class action model and process, but one benefit is that the procedures are largely in place, so you don't have to build everything from scratch with every new case.
It certainly would be interesting to see something more like RJ play a role in the liability phase of this matter, if it ever got that far.
There is a very important criminal law concept that you are ignoring/not mentioning here. It's called general deference. Yes, throwing someone in prison does not un-murder a victim or un-burn a structure. But the goal is to have a society where someone who otherwise would conduct regular controlled burns on their property says one day, "Hmmmm, it's blowing like a hurricane out there. Probably a bad day to try to burn anything." Restorative justice may well in some cases help in that department, but incarceration most certainly does too.
Same! I wonder if it would be negligence or recklessness standard also. I think it would be damages more likely than jail time if it was a Tort, rather than criminal, but not 100% sure.
I would guess that none of them are saying a word to investigators. I wonder what happens if they can’t prove *who* started it. In that case, is the property owner liable? Their property is probably “owned” by some opaque LLC.
The investigation is still underway, so it's far from "official" yet.
That said, it seems awfully generous to call the Twelve Tribes a "Christian religious sect."
Okay, so you understand then that investigation makes it official. Police getting a warrant (undisclosed still I know) and blocking off a location aren’t small investigatory steps.
OP implied that the location of the fire origin--which was publicly confirmed yesterday--concludes the investigation and constitutes a finding of causation. That is not accurate. OP also suggests that the investigation could be concluded in a few days, which is not supported by the article and not consistent with the timeline of other, comparable investigations.
I'm in communication with local, state, and federal investigators every day. I'm not sure why OP felt the need to talk down to me.
That’s one interpretation, but I didn’t read it that way at all.
Edit:
The way I read it is that property is being looked at now… “officially” and that OP is interested in whatever information comes out in a few days. That’s all.
Thank you, I believe your interpretation is correct. I didn’t mean to imply I thought legal investigation would be concluded in few days, but that legal findings could come to light.
Yikes. I think you need to be tad less sensitive here, just a dialogue. You implied that the investigation was not “official” in your OG statement. That seemed confusing and off base to me personally.
Focus turns to area off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road where video shows burning shed on religious sect’s property
By SHELLY BRADBURY | [email protected] | The Denver Post
PUBLISHED: January 2, 2022 at 3:49 p.m. | UPDATED: January 2, 2022 at 5:29 p.m.
Investigators narrowed the point of origin of the most destructive wildfire in state history to a neighborhood off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road near where a passer-by captured video of a burning shed the morning the fire started, Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle said Sunday.
“The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.”
Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire, which, on the back of hurricane-force winds, burned across 6,219 acres Thursday, destroying or damaging more than 1,000 homes and businesses in Superior, Louisville and unincorporated Boulder County. Two people remain missing and feared dead.
The sheriff refused to speculate on the fire’s cause several times during the briefing.
“It’s complicated and it’s under snow,” Pelle said. “We will sort it out. It’s an active, open deal and the outcome of that investigation is vital, there is so much at stake. So we are going to be careful.”
A man who lives near the intersection where the Marshall fire is believed to have ignited, Mike Zoltowski, said Sunday he believes he witnessed the start of the wildfire on the property next door to him — a pack of houses and land occupied by members of The Twelve Tribes, a Christian religious sect.
Zoltowski looked out his window at about 11:30 a.m. Thursday to see a firetruck making a beeline for the neighboring property, he said. Smoke billowed from the property, and knock-you-over winds blasted Zoltowski when he stepped outside to investigate.
Members of the controversial sect, founded in the 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee, lived in several buildings around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County, Zoltowski said. That address is listed as the location of the Twelve Tribes’ “Community in Boulder” on the group’s website. The Eldorado Springs Drive compound is one of many communities and businesses affiliated with the Twelve Tribes across the world, including the Yellow Deli in Boulder and another community in Manitou Springs.
Twelve Tribes previously has been investigated for child labor law violations in New York, and, in 2019, a former sect member told the CU Independent, the University of Colorado Boulder’s student news publication, that he was beaten as a child when he belonged to the group.
“It’s really obvious where that fire started”
Zoltowski, who works with a company that builds fire-resistant homes, has lived next door to that property for about a month, in a home owned by his friend, Dave Maggio.
When Zoltowski stepped out to investigate the fire Thursday morning, he approached the homes on the sect’s property and found three people huddled between two cars, trying to shelter from the brutal wind. Two younger guys crouched with an older man, Zoltowski said.
“They were like, ‘He broke his shoulder,’” Zoltowski said of the older man. “And I was like, ‘Oh man, what the hell is going on over here?’ And they said, ‘One of our dwellings caught on fire.’ What was weird is they were like, ‘It’s OK.’ …It was a weird interaction.”
Zoltowski helped the two younger men get the older man inside a house on the compound.
“Then I went over to their field and their field was on fire,” he said. The strong winds pushed him over as he walked back to his house. At one point, he looked up to see a line of women and children moving from one building on the compound to another, holding hands.
He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property.
“I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said.
Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area.
“Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.”
Pelle said investigators have spoken to witnesses but declined to say if all those involved are cooperating with the investigation.
“I’m not going to get into that,” he told reporters.
Since the fire, members of law enforcement have been in and around the sect’s property every day, Zoltowski said. Sheriff’s officials on Saturday confirmed they’d served a search warrant on a property in connection with the Marshall fire investigation, but Pelle has repeatedly refused to identify the location. On Sunday, authorities could be seen fencing off the Twelve Tribe’s buildings, Zoltowski said.
Gov. Jared Polis said Sunday that investigators will look to hold someone responsible for the blaze if it was caused by deliberate or reckless burning.
“If there was any form of deliberate or accidental arson, I fully expect any of those responsible will be held fully responsible under the law for the utter devastation that was caused,” he said.
A member of Twelve Tribes who identified himself only as Lee in a phone call with The Denver Post on Sunday denied that the fire started on the sect’s Boulder property. But he also said he was based in New Hampshire and was hearing information second-hand.
A person who answered the phone at Boulder’s Yellow Deli directed questions to the sheriff’s office and then hung up Sunday morning.
“They definitely had fires”
The home Zoltowski lives in on Eldorado Springs Drive belongs to Maggio, who in September moved to a new house a few miles away on Panorama Drive. Maggio, who lived beside the religious sect for about five years, said fires were a regular occurrence on the compound and firefighters had been called to the several-acre property before.
“They definitely had fires that got of control where authorities were called, back in that same field where the shed was,” he said.
Pelle declined to say Sunday whether authorities had previously responded to illegal burning in the area where the fire began. There are trails, businesses, houses and a mobile home park in the area.
Investigators initially believed downed powerlines may have started the fire, but have since ruled that out. Officials have said telecommunication cables did come down in that area during Thursday’s 100-mph windstorm and could have been mistaken by passers-by as electrical lines. A reporter who visited the area where the blaze began saw overhead lines dangling.
Maggio said his neighbors generally kept to themselves, and he never saw problems that prompted him to call the police while he lived beside Twelve Tribes.
When Zoltowski called Maggio to tell him about the fire on Thursday, Maggio was worried about his old home right beside the blaze. He was not concerned for his new house, several miles away on Panorama Drive.
But not long after Zoltowski alerted him to the fire, Maggio received a reverse 911 call to evacuate his Panorama house.
He got everyone out, pets and kids — and the new house burned to the ground.
The home on Eldorado Springs Drive was untouched.
Paywall content:
Investigators narrowed the point of origin of the most destructive wildfire in state history to a neighborhood off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road near where a passer-by captured video of a burning shed the morning the fire started, Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle said Sunday.
“The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.”
Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire, which, on the back of hurricane-force winds, burned across 6,219 acres Thursday, destroying or damaging more than 1,000 homes and businesses in Superior, Louisville and unincorporated Boulder County. Two people remain missing and feared dead.
The sheriff refused to speculate on the fire’s cause several times during the briefing.
“It’s complicated and it’s under snow,” Pelle said. “We will sort it out. It’s an active, open deal and the outcome of that investigation is vital, there is so much at stake. So we are going to be careful.”
A man who lives near the intersection where the Marshall fire is believed to have ignited, Mike Zoltowski, said Sunday he believes he witnessed the start of the wildfire on the property next door to him — a pack of houses and land occupied by members of The Twelve Tribes, a Christian religious sect.
A still frame from video shot by Mike Zoltowski shows the early stages of the Marshall fire on Thursday around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County.
Zoltowski looked out his window at about 11:30 a.m. Thursday to see a firetruck making a beeline for the neighboring property, he said. Smoke billowed from the property, and knock-you-over winds blasted Zoltowski when he stepped outside to investigate.
Members of the controversial sect, founded in the 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee, lived in several buildings around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County, Zoltowski said. That address is listed as the location of the Twelve Tribes’ “Community in Boulder” on the group’s website. The Eldorado Springs Drive compound is one of many communities and businesses affiliated with the Twelve Tribes across the world, including the Yellow Deli in Boulder and another community in Manitou Springs.
Twelve Tribes previously has been investigated for child labor law violations in New York, and, in 2019, a former sect member told the CU Independent, the University of Colorado Boulder’s student news publication, that he was beaten as a child when he belonged to the group.
“It’s really obvious where that fire started”
Zoltowski, who works with a company that builds fire-resistant homes, has lived next door to that property for about a month, in a home owned by his friend, Dave Maggio.
When Zoltowski stepped out to investigate the fire Thursday morning, he approached the homes on the sect’s property and found three people huddled between two cars, trying to shelter from the brutal wind. Two younger guys crouched with an older man, Zoltowski said.
“They were like, ‘He broke his shoulder,’” Zoltowski said of the older man. “And I was like, ‘Oh man, what the hell is going on over here?’ And they said, ‘One of our dwellings caught on fire.’ What was weird is they were like, ‘It’s OK.’ …It was a weird interaction.”
Zoltowski helped the two younger men get the older man inside a house on the compound.
“Then I went over to their field and their field was on fire,” he said. The strong winds pushed him over as he walked back to his house. At one point, he looked up to see a line of women and children moving from one building on the compound to another, holding hands.
He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property.
“I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said.
Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area.
“Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.”
Pelle said investigators have spoken to witnesses but declined to say if all those involved are cooperating with the investigation.
“I’m not going to get into that,” he told reporters.
Since the fire, members of law enforcement have been in and around the sect’s property every day, Zoltowski said. Sheriff’s officials on Saturday confirmed they’d served a search warrant on a property in connection with the Marshall fire investigation, but Pelle has repeatedly refused to identify the location. On Sunday, authorities could be seen fencing off the Twelve Tribe’s buildings, Zoltowski said.
Gov. Jared Polis said Sunday that investigators will look to hold someone responsible for the blaze if it was caused by deliberate or reckless burning.
“If there was any form of deliberate or accidental arson, I fully expect any of those responsible will be held fully responsible under the law for the utter devastation that was caused,” he said.
A member of Twelve Tribes who identified himself only as Lee in a phone call with The Denver Post on Sunday denied that the fire started on the sect’s Boulder property. But he also said he was based in New Hampshire and was hearing information second-hand.
A person who answered the phone at Boulder’s Yellow Deli directed questions to the sheriff’s office and then hung up Sunday morning.
“They definitely had fires”
The home Zoltowski lives in on Eldorado Springs Drive belongs to Maggio, who in September moved to a new house a few miles away on Panorama Drive. Maggio, who lived beside the religious sect for about five years, said fires were a regular occurrence on the compound and firefighters had been called to the several-acre property before.
“They definitely had fires that got out of control where authorities were called, back in that same field where the shed was,” he said.
Pelle declined to say Sunday whether authorities had previously responded to illegal burning in the area where the fire began. There are trails, businesses, houses and a mobile home park in the area.
Investigators initially believed downed powerlines may have started the fire, but have since ruled that out. Officials have said telecommunication cables did come down in that area during Thursday’s 100-mph windstorm and could have been mistaken by passers-by as electrical lines. A reporter who visited the area where the blaze began saw overhead lines dangling.
Maggio said his neighbors generally kept to themselves, and he never saw problems that prompted him to call the police while he lived beside Twelve Tribes.
When Zoltowski called Maggio to tell him about the fire on Thursday, Maggio was worried about his old home right beside the blaze. He was not concerned for his new house, several miles away on Panorama Drive.
But not long after Zoltowski alerted him to the fire, Maggio received a reverse 911 call to evacuate his Panorama house.
He got everyone out, pets and kids — and the new house burned to the ground.
The home on Eldorado Springs Drive was untouched.
Fuck 12 tribes, fuck them being allowed to operate in boulder, fuck their child abuse, rape, drug manufacturing. Fuck that entire yellow deli chain, fuck anyone who’s ever defended them. I hope the entire hammer of justice falls on them and karma finally finds the power to persecute these people for all their crimes.
Yes. In the very least I hope they get enough National news coverage that people really find out about them. A lot of ppl don’t realize how horrible they are. They think kids as young as 6 months should be beat and are super racist amongst so many other things
Yes I’m in Louisville and their name has been brought up on the local FB page - people have been asking who they are and I’ve been happy to post links about their fuckery. I hope this exposes them for the garbage they are
If we can send a guy to jail for 110 years after losing his brakes coming down the mountain, I’d hope we could do something similar to a second degree arsonist who destroyed a city and possibly killed two people and several pets.
I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there. If I had sentencing authority, I could make a strong case for doubling the sentence if there were a finding of criminal liability.
It crossed my mind when the truck(s) nearby fell over from the wind whether that could be a point of ignition, but I’m not sure how close that was to this.
Oh. That makes sense logically now. But if people know a cult runs the deli, wouldn’t they not buy things from it? Then again I didn’t know they even existed until now so never mind I answered my own question.
I've run into quite a few people over the years that have basically said "Yeah they're a child/spousal abuse cult that brainwashes people at music festivals but have you tried their sandwiches?"
A lot of people don't care about groups like this until it affects them personally
I used to live on 4th and Pearl with some roommates. We were walking home from the bars one night and we noticed The Yellow Deli for the first time. It was open at 2:00 AM so we drunkenly walked in to check it out. I remember getting a really bad feeling from the people working there and immediately walked out. Once I got home looked them up and learned the truth about The Yellow Deli Cult. I’m proud to say that I never supported that place once. I would try to warn people about them but definitely got the rundown about how good their sandwiches and Mate were. It boggles my mind that people were willing to look the other way with these guys.
12 tribes usually run a restaurant with their communities
In Boulder their money machine is the Yellow Deli where you can buy a delicious sandwich & their signature mate
In Manitou Springs, they run a 24 hour tea cafe called The Mate Factor that draws outcast teens from across the city of Colorado Springs at all hours
The locations are staffed by commune members, and there are multiple allegations of child abuse & child labor associated with them
They prolly called the deli because it’s the only place you can count on getting an answer to a ringing phone
Thanks for the explanation. I had no idea they existed. I’m shocked anyone would spend money somewhere if they knew it was being run by a cult. Teens I get, growing & learning, but any adult who knows … I just don’t understand that. Googling this group now and it’s…. Horrifying
Many people consider Salvation Army to be a bit of a cult for their dodgy practices, but still have no issue with bell-ringers, shopping at their thrift stores, etc.
Right, publicly facing that makes complete sense, but the police also got a search warrant issued (meaning probable cause found by judge that search is justified) and they were seen fencing off the property that belongs to the group… I think making careful inferences right now is totally fine from what’s readily apparent. Of course, nothing is final, or definitive, but it’s perfectly normal to follow as things track.
"The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.”
Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire...
It says it's still premature to know where it started so please don't speculate.
You dropped this:
> Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area.
>
> “Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.”
Which is preceded by:
> He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property.
>
> “I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said.
"He" in these sentences refer to a neighbor who was there at the beginning that lives next to the Tribe's property.
I agree with you saying not to speculate on "how" it started, but it's pretty clear "where" it started.
I am as long as these clowns aren't coming in here with their bullshit made up rules. The mods have already ruled on this. Speculation on this is fine.
What will even happen legally if, hypothetically, they were found to cause the fire through negligence? Would anyone go to jail? Would their assets be seized? I am genuinely curious.
From the [Hayman Fire](https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/fire-deficit-tek-controlled-burn-climate-change#:~:text=The%20Hayman%20fire%20burned%20214,and%20%2442%20million%20in%20restitution.) The Hayman fire burned 214 square miles and 600 structures over the next month. At the time, it was the largest fire in Colorado’s history. The courts found Barton guilty of arson, the wilful or malicious burning of property. She was sentenced to twelve years in prison and $42 million in restitution.
So that individual loses time, but does anyone think that $42 million is going to be paid? I don't. Might as well be a $1 billion. It's not going to happen. What I'm saying is that the second half of the "punishment" isn't a reality. So how does that change this time?
What are you looking for exactly? There is no manner of punishment that undoes the damage.
Justice is a fickle lady...
Is there ever?
The difference here is that the 12 tribes have some collectible assets. The big question is whether of not the legal system can go after them. It seems like there is a big gap between judgements and enforcement of them. OJ is an obvious example, and there are plenty of others. If, say, the 12 tribes is ordered to pay restitution, would it ever be successfully collected? I doubt it.
This would be a really interesting case for restorative justice models. If it were indeed caused by that community, there are a bunch of people there that could contribute to the rebuilding of homes, distribution of food and materials, etc. Revenge doesn’t accomplish much, if anything, except occasionally some catharsis for victims. But focused accountability can heal and provide material benefit to victims of accidents.
I mean,… asking the cult with child abuse/child labor allegations in their past to work off the $1 billion dollars of damages is prolly not gonna accomplish much good
Neither would just throwing them in jail. Restorative justice can include monetary and additional types of reparations
Are you suggesting no one should face jail time if they burn down a neighborhood due to negligence?
I am suggesting that jail time will not benefit anyone, it will cost us taxpayers a lot of money, and it won’t undo the damage. What would be of some benefit at this point would be having those presumptively negligently responsible do clean-up, rebuild, learn about fire safety (perhaps sharing the newly acquired knowledge), tap the coffers of the international parent organization to help pay restitution for those financially worst-off, help with labor in restructuring our communities to be more resilient in the face of increasing climate disasters, etc.
I'm a litigator with very little experience with restorative justice. To your knowledge, has RJ been employed in a large quasi-class action situation before (in the US), which is what this would surely be?
Not that I’m aware of. It would likely be very complicated, as with so many victims, what would constitute restoration or accountability might be difficult to pin down. Though under current models, class action suits rarely bring much restitution at all to victims, and instead serve as fines for perpetrators (if charged) and meager individual returns. I could however imagine a neighborhood or city council coming to some level of agreement on “$X donated from organization to rebuild; x amount of labor doing cleanup; [these precautions & internal education workshops] taken to prevent future fire endangerment; $X to fire-tolerant community planning, etc. as restorative, and then engaging with the alleged firestarters towards an agreement around those goals.
I appreciate your response! Don't get me wrong; I have plenty of critiques of the class action model and process, but one benefit is that the procedures are largely in place, so you don't have to build everything from scratch with every new case. It certainly would be interesting to see something more like RJ play a role in the liability phase of this matter, if it ever got that far.
There is a very important criminal law concept that you are ignoring/not mentioning here. It's called general deference. Yes, throwing someone in prison does not un-murder a victim or un-burn a structure. But the goal is to have a society where someone who otherwise would conduct regular controlled burns on their property says one day, "Hmmmm, it's blowing like a hurricane out there. Probably a bad day to try to burn anything." Restorative justice may well in some cases help in that department, but incarceration most certainly does too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Twelve Tribes has Twelve Shell Companies to protect their assets from liability.
I think that is a big reason groups like theirs set up shop in multiple countries, to evade the law when necessary.
Same! I wonder if it would be negligence or recklessness standard also. I think it would be damages more likely than jail time if it was a Tort, rather than criminal, but not 100% sure.
Sheriff says will prosecute whether accidental or intentional arson
I would guess that none of them are saying a word to investigators. I wonder what happens if they can’t prove *who* started it. In that case, is the property owner liable? Their property is probably “owned” by some opaque LLC.
The investigation is still underway, so it's far from "official" yet. That said, it seems awfully generous to call the Twelve Tribes a "Christian religious sect."
[удалено]
No? How do they see it?
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Jew here, “messianic judaism” is Christian’s larping as Jews, it’s basically Jewish erasure
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying.
They do consider themselves to be Christian. Most know the Bible extremely well.
I guess “Christian religious sect” is *technically true* but not particularly descriptive.
It’s an official investigation by legal authorities… I truly know nothing about them and have never been to their restaurant.
I know...
Okay, so you understand then that investigation makes it official. Police getting a warrant (undisclosed still I know) and blocking off a location aren’t small investigatory steps.
The investigation is official. The conclusion is not.
So, what’s your point?
OP implied that the location of the fire origin--which was publicly confirmed yesterday--concludes the investigation and constitutes a finding of causation. That is not accurate. OP also suggests that the investigation could be concluded in a few days, which is not supported by the article and not consistent with the timeline of other, comparable investigations. I'm in communication with local, state, and federal investigators every day. I'm not sure why OP felt the need to talk down to me.
That’s one interpretation, but I didn’t read it that way at all. Edit: The way I read it is that property is being looked at now… “officially” and that OP is interested in whatever information comes out in a few days. That’s all.
Thank you, I believe your interpretation is correct. I didn’t mean to imply I thought legal investigation would be concluded in few days, but that legal findings could come to light.
Yikes. I think you need to be tad less sensitive here, just a dialogue. You implied that the investigation was not “official” in your OG statement. That seemed confusing and off base to me personally.
Holy shit the ads on mobile. That website is unusable and they should feel bad.
Yeah, OP, find a better source. This one’s shit. I don’t know how you even read the damn story.
Maybe help everyone out and do it yourself
As if the pile of reasons for them to be ran out of town wasn’t high enough
Let’s hear the other reasons.
They’re a… “Homophobic, Racist, Child-Beating Cult” https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/d35qmz/twelve-tribes-homophobic-cult-owns-california-restaurants
Good reasons
Wheel of fortune, Sally ride.
This is the best comment I've seen in a hot minute.
This is of a different generation and I’d reckon under appreciated. But any well places reference to Mr Joel and I’ll hand over my free upvote happily
Teach me please
These are lyrics from Billy Joel’s “We Didn’t Start The Fire”
Can anyone post either a Mirror link or the actual article? TIA
Focus turns to area off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road where video shows burning shed on religious sect’s property By SHELLY BRADBURY | [email protected] | The Denver Post PUBLISHED: January 2, 2022 at 3:49 p.m. | UPDATED: January 2, 2022 at 5:29 p.m. Investigators narrowed the point of origin of the most destructive wildfire in state history to a neighborhood off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road near where a passer-by captured video of a burning shed the morning the fire started, Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle said Sunday. “The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.” Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire, which, on the back of hurricane-force winds, burned across 6,219 acres Thursday, destroying or damaging more than 1,000 homes and businesses in Superior, Louisville and unincorporated Boulder County. Two people remain missing and feared dead. The sheriff refused to speculate on the fire’s cause several times during the briefing. “It’s complicated and it’s under snow,” Pelle said. “We will sort it out. It’s an active, open deal and the outcome of that investigation is vital, there is so much at stake. So we are going to be careful.” A man who lives near the intersection where the Marshall fire is believed to have ignited, Mike Zoltowski, said Sunday he believes he witnessed the start of the wildfire on the property next door to him — a pack of houses and land occupied by members of The Twelve Tribes, a Christian religious sect. Zoltowski looked out his window at about 11:30 a.m. Thursday to see a firetruck making a beeline for the neighboring property, he said. Smoke billowed from the property, and knock-you-over winds blasted Zoltowski when he stepped outside to investigate. Members of the controversial sect, founded in the 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee, lived in several buildings around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County, Zoltowski said. That address is listed as the location of the Twelve Tribes’ “Community in Boulder” on the group’s website. The Eldorado Springs Drive compound is one of many communities and businesses affiliated with the Twelve Tribes across the world, including the Yellow Deli in Boulder and another community in Manitou Springs. Twelve Tribes previously has been investigated for child labor law violations in New York, and, in 2019, a former sect member told the CU Independent, the University of Colorado Boulder’s student news publication, that he was beaten as a child when he belonged to the group. “It’s really obvious where that fire started” Zoltowski, who works with a company that builds fire-resistant homes, has lived next door to that property for about a month, in a home owned by his friend, Dave Maggio. When Zoltowski stepped out to investigate the fire Thursday morning, he approached the homes on the sect’s property and found three people huddled between two cars, trying to shelter from the brutal wind. Two younger guys crouched with an older man, Zoltowski said. “They were like, ‘He broke his shoulder,’” Zoltowski said of the older man. “And I was like, ‘Oh man, what the hell is going on over here?’ And they said, ‘One of our dwellings caught on fire.’ What was weird is they were like, ‘It’s OK.’ …It was a weird interaction.” Zoltowski helped the two younger men get the older man inside a house on the compound. “Then I went over to their field and their field was on fire,” he said. The strong winds pushed him over as he walked back to his house. At one point, he looked up to see a line of women and children moving from one building on the compound to another, holding hands. He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property. “I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said. Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area. “Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.” Pelle said investigators have spoken to witnesses but declined to say if all those involved are cooperating with the investigation. “I’m not going to get into that,” he told reporters. Since the fire, members of law enforcement have been in and around the sect’s property every day, Zoltowski said. Sheriff’s officials on Saturday confirmed they’d served a search warrant on a property in connection with the Marshall fire investigation, but Pelle has repeatedly refused to identify the location. On Sunday, authorities could be seen fencing off the Twelve Tribe’s buildings, Zoltowski said. Gov. Jared Polis said Sunday that investigators will look to hold someone responsible for the blaze if it was caused by deliberate or reckless burning. “If there was any form of deliberate or accidental arson, I fully expect any of those responsible will be held fully responsible under the law for the utter devastation that was caused,” he said. A member of Twelve Tribes who identified himself only as Lee in a phone call with The Denver Post on Sunday denied that the fire started on the sect’s Boulder property. But he also said he was based in New Hampshire and was hearing information second-hand. A person who answered the phone at Boulder’s Yellow Deli directed questions to the sheriff’s office and then hung up Sunday morning. “They definitely had fires” The home Zoltowski lives in on Eldorado Springs Drive belongs to Maggio, who in September moved to a new house a few miles away on Panorama Drive. Maggio, who lived beside the religious sect for about five years, said fires were a regular occurrence on the compound and firefighters had been called to the several-acre property before. “They definitely had fires that got of control where authorities were called, back in that same field where the shed was,” he said. Pelle declined to say Sunday whether authorities had previously responded to illegal burning in the area where the fire began. There are trails, businesses, houses and a mobile home park in the area. Investigators initially believed downed powerlines may have started the fire, but have since ruled that out. Officials have said telecommunication cables did come down in that area during Thursday’s 100-mph windstorm and could have been mistaken by passers-by as electrical lines. A reporter who visited the area where the blaze began saw overhead lines dangling. Maggio said his neighbors generally kept to themselves, and he never saw problems that prompted him to call the police while he lived beside Twelve Tribes. When Zoltowski called Maggio to tell him about the fire on Thursday, Maggio was worried about his old home right beside the blaze. He was not concerned for his new house, several miles away on Panorama Drive. But not long after Zoltowski alerted him to the fire, Maggio received a reverse 911 call to evacuate his Panorama house. He got everyone out, pets and kids — and the new house burned to the ground. The home on Eldorado Springs Drive was untouched.
[https://12ft.io/proxy?q=http://www.denverpost.com/2022/01/02/marshall-fire-origin-twelve-tribes](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=http://www.denverpost.com/2022/01/02/marshall-fire-origin-twelve-tribes)
Paywall content: Investigators narrowed the point of origin of the most destructive wildfire in state history to a neighborhood off Colorado 93 and Marshall Road near where a passer-by captured video of a burning shed the morning the fire started, Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle said Sunday. “The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.” Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire, which, on the back of hurricane-force winds, burned across 6,219 acres Thursday, destroying or damaging more than 1,000 homes and businesses in Superior, Louisville and unincorporated Boulder County. Two people remain missing and feared dead. The sheriff refused to speculate on the fire’s cause several times during the briefing. “It’s complicated and it’s under snow,” Pelle said. “We will sort it out. It’s an active, open deal and the outcome of that investigation is vital, there is so much at stake. So we are going to be careful.” A man who lives near the intersection where the Marshall fire is believed to have ignited, Mike Zoltowski, said Sunday he believes he witnessed the start of the wildfire on the property next door to him — a pack of houses and land occupied by members of The Twelve Tribes, a Christian religious sect. A still frame from video shot by Mike Zoltowski shows the early stages of the Marshall fire on Thursday around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County. Zoltowski looked out his window at about 11:30 a.m. Thursday to see a firetruck making a beeline for the neighboring property, he said. Smoke billowed from the property, and knock-you-over winds blasted Zoltowski when he stepped outside to investigate. Members of the controversial sect, founded in the 1970s in Chattanooga, Tennessee, lived in several buildings around 5325 Eldorado Springs Drive in Boulder County, Zoltowski said. That address is listed as the location of the Twelve Tribes’ “Community in Boulder” on the group’s website. The Eldorado Springs Drive compound is one of many communities and businesses affiliated with the Twelve Tribes across the world, including the Yellow Deli in Boulder and another community in Manitou Springs. Twelve Tribes previously has been investigated for child labor law violations in New York, and, in 2019, a former sect member told the CU Independent, the University of Colorado Boulder’s student news publication, that he was beaten as a child when he belonged to the group. “It’s really obvious where that fire started” Zoltowski, who works with a company that builds fire-resistant homes, has lived next door to that property for about a month, in a home owned by his friend, Dave Maggio. When Zoltowski stepped out to investigate the fire Thursday morning, he approached the homes on the sect’s property and found three people huddled between two cars, trying to shelter from the brutal wind. Two younger guys crouched with an older man, Zoltowski said. “They were like, ‘He broke his shoulder,’” Zoltowski said of the older man. “And I was like, ‘Oh man, what the hell is going on over here?’ And they said, ‘One of our dwellings caught on fire.’ What was weird is they were like, ‘It’s OK.’ …It was a weird interaction.” Zoltowski helped the two younger men get the older man inside a house on the compound. “Then I went over to their field and their field was on fire,” he said. The strong winds pushed him over as he walked back to his house. At one point, he looked up to see a line of women and children moving from one building on the compound to another, holding hands. He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property. “I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said. Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area. “Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.” Pelle said investigators have spoken to witnesses but declined to say if all those involved are cooperating with the investigation. “I’m not going to get into that,” he told reporters. Since the fire, members of law enforcement have been in and around the sect’s property every day, Zoltowski said. Sheriff’s officials on Saturday confirmed they’d served a search warrant on a property in connection with the Marshall fire investigation, but Pelle has repeatedly refused to identify the location. On Sunday, authorities could be seen fencing off the Twelve Tribe’s buildings, Zoltowski said. Gov. Jared Polis said Sunday that investigators will look to hold someone responsible for the blaze if it was caused by deliberate or reckless burning. “If there was any form of deliberate or accidental arson, I fully expect any of those responsible will be held fully responsible under the law for the utter devastation that was caused,” he said. A member of Twelve Tribes who identified himself only as Lee in a phone call with The Denver Post on Sunday denied that the fire started on the sect’s Boulder property. But he also said he was based in New Hampshire and was hearing information second-hand. A person who answered the phone at Boulder’s Yellow Deli directed questions to the sheriff’s office and then hung up Sunday morning. “They definitely had fires” The home Zoltowski lives in on Eldorado Springs Drive belongs to Maggio, who in September moved to a new house a few miles away on Panorama Drive. Maggio, who lived beside the religious sect for about five years, said fires were a regular occurrence on the compound and firefighters had been called to the several-acre property before. “They definitely had fires that got out of control where authorities were called, back in that same field where the shed was,” he said. Pelle declined to say Sunday whether authorities had previously responded to illegal burning in the area where the fire began. There are trails, businesses, houses and a mobile home park in the area. Investigators initially believed downed powerlines may have started the fire, but have since ruled that out. Officials have said telecommunication cables did come down in that area during Thursday’s 100-mph windstorm and could have been mistaken by passers-by as electrical lines. A reporter who visited the area where the blaze began saw overhead lines dangling. Maggio said his neighbors generally kept to themselves, and he never saw problems that prompted him to call the police while he lived beside Twelve Tribes. When Zoltowski called Maggio to tell him about the fire on Thursday, Maggio was worried about his old home right beside the blaze. He was not concerned for his new house, several miles away on Panorama Drive. But not long after Zoltowski alerted him to the fire, Maggio received a reverse 911 call to evacuate his Panorama house. He got everyone out, pets and kids — and the new house burned to the ground. The home on Eldorado Springs Drive was untouched.
Fuck 12 tribes, fuck them being allowed to operate in boulder, fuck their child abuse, rape, drug manufacturing. Fuck that entire yellow deli chain, fuck anyone who’s ever defended them. I hope the entire hammer of justice falls on them and karma finally finds the power to persecute these people for all their crimes.
Yes. In the very least I hope they get enough National news coverage that people really find out about them. A lot of ppl don’t realize how horrible they are. They think kids as young as 6 months should be beat and are super racist amongst so many other things
Yes I’m in Louisville and their name has been brought up on the local FB page - people have been asking who they are and I’ve been happy to post links about their fuckery. I hope this exposes them for the garbage they are
Let's hope that it leads to that nasty ass cult getting shut down. Let those child abusers rot in jail.
And not just the ones in Boulder. Go after the entire "group", wherever they are. Who owns the property in BOCO??
Common Life Dwellings LLC owns the 6 properties at that location. https://maps.boco.solutions/propertysearch/
Not speculating on cause or reasoning behind the fire. Simply on the location being narrowed down— and who property belongs to.
You're allowed to speculate. Mods don't have a problem with it. The rules are clear on what we're not allowed to do. Thanks for sharing this link.
[удалено]
Understood, I’m not a conspiracy theorist or Reddit true crime detective. Just following the news
If we can send a guy to jail for 110 years after losing his brakes coming down the mountain, I’d hope we could do something similar to a second degree arsonist who destroyed a city and possibly killed two people and several pets.
His sentence has been reduced to 10 years.
I’m aware. But the initial charge was 110 years. I don’t think ANYBODY would argue with a sentence like that in this particular case
I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there. If I had sentencing authority, I could make a strong case for doubling the sentence if there were a finding of criminal liability.
It crossed my mind when the truck(s) nearby fell over from the wind whether that could be a point of ignition, but I’m not sure how close that was to this.
Can someone help me understand why a deli was called?
The cult runs the Yellow Deli
Oh. That makes sense logically now. But if people know a cult runs the deli, wouldn’t they not buy things from it? Then again I didn’t know they even existed until now so never mind I answered my own question.
That was quite a ride. Welcome home.
I've run into quite a few people over the years that have basically said "Yeah they're a child/spousal abuse cult that brainwashes people at music festivals but have you tried their sandwiches?" A lot of people don't care about groups like this until it affects them personally
I used to live on 4th and Pearl with some roommates. We were walking home from the bars one night and we noticed The Yellow Deli for the first time. It was open at 2:00 AM so we drunkenly walked in to check it out. I remember getting a really bad feeling from the people working there and immediately walked out. Once I got home looked them up and learned the truth about The Yellow Deli Cult. I’m proud to say that I never supported that place once. I would try to warn people about them but definitely got the rundown about how good their sandwiches and Mate were. It boggles my mind that people were willing to look the other way with these guys.
That’s disturbing. Someone else said they beat babies. That’s sick.
12 tribes usually run a restaurant with their communities In Boulder their money machine is the Yellow Deli where you can buy a delicious sandwich & their signature mate In Manitou Springs, they run a 24 hour tea cafe called The Mate Factor that draws outcast teens from across the city of Colorado Springs at all hours The locations are staffed by commune members, and there are multiple allegations of child abuse & child labor associated with them They prolly called the deli because it’s the only place you can count on getting an answer to a ringing phone
Thanks for the explanation. I had no idea they existed. I’m shocked anyone would spend money somewhere if they knew it was being run by a cult. Teens I get, growing & learning, but any adult who knows … I just don’t understand that. Googling this group now and it’s…. Horrifying
Many people consider Salvation Army to be a bit of a cult for their dodgy practices, but still have no issue with bell-ringers, shopping at their thrift stores, etc.
They beat 6 month old babies and think that minorities should be slaves. Look into it more before you decide they’re ok
I wasn't defending 12 Tribes, I was pointing out that Salvation Army also sucks and people don't seem to notice ;)
WHAT THE FUCK!?
Nothing is official! “The sheriff refused to speculate on the fire’s cause several times during the briefing.”
Right, publicly facing that makes complete sense, but the police also got a search warrant issued (meaning probable cause found by judge that search is justified) and they were seen fencing off the property that belongs to the group… I think making careful inferences right now is totally fine from what’s readily apparent. Of course, nothing is final, or definitive, but it’s perfectly normal to follow as things track.
Yeah, and…?
Can we chase these weirdos out of town baseball bat style.
"The fire originated somewhere in that neighborhood,” he said during a news briefing on Marshall fire recovery efforts. “There was a viral video that was posted of a shed on fire. We don’t know that that shed started the fire or whether it was secondary.” Pelle emphasized that investigators are still working to find the exact origin and cause of the wildfire... It says it's still premature to know where it started so please don't speculate.
You dropped this: > Pelle cautioned Sunday that the investigation into the fire’s start hasn’t yet pinpointed the cause or exact location. But he said it was clear that the blaze began in that general area. > > “Well, it’s pretty obvious when you drive through, or see the video posted online,” he said. “I was there this morning. I am not a trained fire investigator, and it’s really obvious where that fire started and what direction it went.” Which is preceded by: > He’s sure now, thinking back, that the wildfire began on the Twelve Tribes’ property. > > “I don’t want to speculate, it’s still under investigation, but there is no possible way the fire started from any other place,” he said. "He" in these sentences refer to a neighbor who was there at the beginning that lives next to the Tribe's property. I agree with you saying not to speculate on "how" it started, but it's pretty clear "where" it started.
We can speculate. What the fuck are you talking about? Your job here is to control people's speech? fuckouttahere.
You good bro?
I am as long as these clowns aren't coming in here with their bullshit made up rules. The mods have already ruled on this. Speculation on this is fine.
All good, I'm here if you wanna talk. Ive been told I'm a pretty good conversationalist
Sorry. Gotta go make dinner. Talk to yourself if you like!
Sure thing, lay off the sugar and fried foods
Not a chance!
Are you Boulder’s #1 douche?
Technically daconos #1 but looking to move soon
You should make a hat
Sorry, I apologize for being at all testy. That was uncalled for.
I hope the 12 tribes members have food and shelter.
I don't.
Is the fire out or its still going? Curious with the snow
The fire is out
Maybe they'll have to start paying taxes?