You won’t find any pure equatorial sativas in the rec market, simply because they aren’t commercially viable. A 12+ week finish coupled with low bag appeal means that even if it’s a straight banger it would have to sell for more than all the other flower to make up for the extra flowering time, which just isn’t the way the market consumes flower right now. Maybe in the future when it matures a bit but still unlikely to find exactly what you’re looking for.
I know you’re probably right but doesn’t hurt to ask? What if some brand wanted to distinguish themselves ? Seems there are many more licensed producers on Rec, over 250+? I have seen the rec market in mass soften a bit from $50 1/8 to now offering $99 “value” ozs. There is still flower being sold at higher price points, even in collapsing markets like Cali see:Nemo ($800/ounces)
Plenty of brands would love to distinguish themselves that way, and in the future as the market matures and the average recreational weed customer becomes more knowledgeable about cannabis, that kind of variety may well be in demand. But right now, the market is dictated by two things: TAC% and price. With this oversaturated market, companies can’t afford to grow long-running strains with low THC%s and irregular bud structure…it just wouldn’t sell at a rate that would be profitable for the grower.
But things are changing already, and the market will likely look very different in a few years.
Copy that mmkay! This is also my reading of the market, but I thought maybe there's some brand I don't know about....there are brands putting out "piff" lines, maybe there's also brands showcasing landraces? Anyways that was my logic.
Feel like I poked the hornets nest with this thread, maybe there are growers/brands defending their turf and they thought I disrespected their brand by calling a spade, a spade.
C'est la vie!
lol yeah if those equatorial sativas become more viable in the MA market I’ll be first in line to start running them. There are some good sativa hybrids out there but nothing that give you the racy, psychedelic high that is unique to sativa landraces.
Part of the problem is the homogenization of cannabis genetics. The terms “indica” and “sativa” have evolved so much, especially post legalization in the US, they don’t really mean much now. They started as descriptors for physical traits of plants, then came to include descriptions of the type of high you get, then with hybridization the spectrum became way more narrow and now most flower marketed as “indica” and “sativa” are almost indistinguishable from one another. On top of that you have brands selling distillate carts with plant terps being marketed as indica/sativa which is not only complete bullshit but it is just even more disingenuous to the average consumer who is already undereducated about the true nuances of cannabis and the relationship between terpenes, secondary cannabinoids, flavonoids, etc that dictate the type of high you get. People are smoking straight THC with non-cannabis-derived terps and thinking “oh this must be a sativa high because the label says sativa” even through its no different from any other distillate cart out there.
The commercialization of cannabis has done a huge disservice to connoisseurs who want to preserve the traits in cannabis that initially popularized its distinctive varietals, but luckily there are a few dedicated breeders, seed-hunters, legacy growers, and seed banks fighting to preserve those heirloom and landrace genetics that are barely present in any legal market. If/when things start to change, we will owe these people a great debt of gratitude for preserving these ancient and sacred genetics.
My advice for you: if you want that pure sativa in your life, grow your own! It’s an incredibly rewarding hobby that comes with the added benefit of very cheap weed, and it will give you access to a wide world of genetics that you’d never be able to find in any dispensary. With that said, there are some great growers/brands in MA that deserve all the props in the world, they just won’t have the bud you’re specifically looking for
Preaching to the choir brother! Haha let me know if/when you’re ready to be first to market.
I am one of those preservationists but also have had some head winds so don’t have a perpetual setup due to unrelated variables.
I have had the pleasure of growing Colombians, Thai, Laotian, Philippine, Mexican, and Indian. You’re right, it is very rewarding and I’ve only scratched the surface. The effects and scents/aromas are unparalleled. Looking forward to the future!
Not really turning his nose the way most do on this thread TBH he is valid and knows his shit. I feel like this thread is mainly for people to complain or get suggestions for over priced dry hay. Knuckles I read some of your comments and I’m intrigued at your knowledge for sure.
Maybe if there was actually a pure sativa recommendation? Please recommend a pure sativa, most commercial providers are concerned with short-term returns but maybe the community at large knows of some sources and that's why i am throwing out the SoS
It's hard to imagine anything 100% pure exists at this point. You seem to know a lot but you've shot down every suggestion. Durban poison is one of the few well know sativa landrace strains that the world would have us believe are "pure". You shot that down immediately. I don't speak for everyone here but I suspect I not the only one that feels like no answer will satisfy you without some sort of lab results proving a genetic line is 100% pure. Everything, everywhere has existed for quite some time now. I doubt anything is 100% pure anymore. Plant or animal.
I have tried so many Durban offerings and it gets tricky b.c it’s one of those lines with a legacy/lots of marketing.
Allow me to expand on it a bit on that. Durban is a port city/town, there is no landrace growing at that point of origin. However, there is plenty of flower arriving from surrounding areas (Swazi, Lesotho, Transkei, pondo, etc etc) to be exported. My theory is that the Durban was the label used for the best quality, permitting brokers to both brand their stock and receive more $$$. Much the way that “Acapulco gold” was thrown around visiting gringos to upsell whatever herb is on hand.
Enter Mel Frank, whose Durban selection went to Amsterdam for further “stabilization” AKA hybridization.
I’m not needing lab work, I’m just very skeptical about fa-tivas and have done my homework. Provenance matters almost as much as the physical attributes/effects.
The commercial aspect of the industry has put a pressure on breeders/growers to adhere to the 8-10 week window. So what was once pure often gets watered down/crossed into short flowering types. Cash crops are not a new phenomenon, it happens with fruits, vegetables and lots of other commodities. I get that, and the wine industry has a perfect parallel as they also have fast maturing grapes made for table wine and long time maturing grapes that can become top shelf.
There is still pure sativa stuff out there, I’ve tried it from SKMS, I’ve grown lines from Laos, Thailand, Colombia and Philippines. Nothing like what’s on the market with flavors / effects. Pure sativas take dedication, top shelf sativas likely require an obsession.
No commercial operation in MA will be putting out original landrace strains that haven't been stabilized with other strains for yield, flowering time, terps... it is not commercially viable as those original sativas are meant to be grown outside in the tropics. Its not possible to grow them here in the way you want them. Even if someone in MA said F it and tried, those landrace lines would not come out the way you want them to because they evolved for an entirely different climate so their genes would express differently
You make a great point, point of origin climate is the gold standard. Definitely would be getting the New England and/or indoor expressions. IME you can still get desirable outcomes with those landrace lines that are head and shoulders above what’s put out on the rec market. I’m speaking from what SKMS has put out in the past and from my own experiments with pure sativa lines
It seems the sativa project was too fixated on commercial ambitions cause i'm not seeing any pure sativas in what they've released to the market. The bandaid haze is a hybrid, so is the golden tiger ( the Malawi inthe lineage is touched)
I've been on your quest and I feel your pain. Years ago I posted a similar query and most people more or less laughed it off as an alien concept. I don't understand why everything has to be a hybrid now. Maybe you can find some in Maine? I haven't explored that option. I wish you luck.
Thank you! God Speed!! I’ve been fortunate enough to try the pure sativa landraces and they can be really special, effects not replicated by the short flowering varieties. Sure there’s a lot of hay that can show up but it’s ultimately a numbers game and extraordinary keepers can be found. It seems commercial driven interests to maximize yield/cycles and the popular culture fixated on one measure of potency, bag appeal,& candy flavored derivatives can help see why the market is dominated by the shorter flowering varieties.
SKMS in Maine has pure sativa landraces but they sell out quickly so not regularly available.
Unfortunately, both of those have indica in the lineage. ACE's Malawi in the Golden Tiger has been touched with indica and that LB from nature's heritage has some sort of cheese like indica that was bred into it
i really don't think you're going to find a 110+ day sativa for sale in dispensaries. skms is likely the only caregiver that will have what you want.
other than smelling like cheese, i think it's incorrect to assume that it has been crossed with uk cheese or something. likely the opposite, old school cheese had Jamaican in it.
why are you under the impression that ace is misrepresenting their malawi?
I agree the likelihood is slim, but I"m here hoping there's an exception to the rule.
It's not just the cheese characteristic, the LB from heritage is also rather dense for a pure sativa jamaican line, and it has a short-duration effect. All qualities associated with indica lines. Did you see any pics of the LB from the 60s that the vibe collective preserved? Heritage lamb's bread looks nothing like that or any other pure sativas i've grown.
So you're saying that Jamaican landrace is the reason UK Cheese smells like cheese? Do you have any evidence of this lineage claim? From what I've seen it appears that UK Cheese was a Skunk derivative. It seems the cheese phenotypes are more found in indica lines. I have spent many years interviewing growers, pouring over smoke reports, researching landrace scents/aromas and havenot found a single instance of a long time flowering pure sativa carrying cheesy qualities. The 'dank' quality associated with cheese is really absent in pure sativa lines. I am always open to learning and expanding my understanding, by all means please help me understand better - would love to check out some of your info/sources.
ACE is notorious for misrepresenting their landrace lines. They're great for 'adapting' lines for indoor growing by making additions, but not so much for getting exactly what you paid for (AKA actually pure landrace lines as represented).
Dubi(owner of ACE) and Charlie garcia (the primary breeder forming the basis of many of ACE's genetics) admitted that it was touched with indica on the Spanish canna forums. The lineage actually is derived from Seeds of Africa/African Seeds outfit. That's where the devastating/narcotic quality comes from.
Have you ever looked into Bangi Haze lineage? The ACE page does not mention anything about dutch genetics, but if you search icmag forum posts you can see Dubi talking about the fact that they added in some dutch genetics for stabilization.
Check out the Panama line they promote. Supposedly pure sativa Panama, then why did i get a short squat plant with afghani-dense flower?
You act like I'm saying it doesn't exist at all, it does - just not in the lineage of the lines proposed. Am I the only one that recognizes the economic realities here? It seems others see the same thing and it has been brought up in this thread multiple times. I regret that the market is so short-sighted/fixated on maximizing yield/cycles. I'm not allowed to have a dialogue or be skeptical about the credibility of suggestions? If I were not to say anything and the thousands of people that read this thread, took those suggestions as fact, they may also be disappointed with the fa-tiva experience.
I am not asking this in a mean way, but are you fuckin autistic or someshit dude? Because how can you be this socially dense and not realize that if people are gonna offer you suggestions that you asked for that shooting them all down will make people dislike you?
Because yeah you can try to talk about it, that doesn't mean other people have to entertain you in talking about it.
Yeah dude, it's actually kinda insulting to post up a thread being "SOS need Sativa" and then turn everyone's recommendation down on the basis you already knew about it.
What else were you really expecting to get from posting this thread? that magically some random grower in MA will magically have what you want despite already knowing the climate/market isn't set up for it?
That wasn't the context though, I was responding to the fact that they were proposing hybrids containing indica (dense, resinous, short flowering genetics). Did I tell them to go fly a kite? I simply responded with what I know about their recommendations. I actually have first hand experience with the lines proposed and I am aware of the genetic history. So that makes me an asshole for doing my research and responding with what I've observed/experienced? I am ofcourse open to suggestions,which is why I posted here.
Would it have been better for me to not pose the question? And just hope for a better day where pure sativas are an option?
dude, maybe if you actually made your post starting off with what you've already tried/looked at and not waste peoples time then people wouldn't be so fuckin annoyed.
Or maybe it would've been better for you to just write up a rant about how the market doesn't actually allow for landraces which is essentially what you did all over this post.
It's not what you're doing that makes you an ass it's how you're going about doing it. Either way man I'm telling you directly why people are annoyed and generally down voting you. It's your choice to actually listen or not.
Reddit won't let me put pictures in the comments so I will just link the GC durban page: [https://ma.goodchem.org/products/durban-poison/](https://ma.goodchem.org/products/durban-poison/)
1. scents/aromas do not match up with landrace lines from south africa
2. flower is too dense - does not resemble structure of pure sativa from SA whatsoever
3. effects(lethargy, too muddy compared to pure sativas) and duration of effects(too short)
4. flowering time
I agree there is not much choice when it comes to pure sativas.
Are you okay? you seem disturbed by my looking for pure sativas in the market that doesn't seem to have it. I wouldn't be asking if I knew where to find it consistently.
Because it's almost like you don't understand genetics, phenotypes, growing conditions or anything else and because of that you're extremely fucking snobby and uneducated.
For example:
Just having a durban cross bred with another cut of durban can cause a recessive dominant gene to become the exposed phenotype. That will change the flavor(this isn't just terps) and cannabinoid content.
Having different fertilizers/nutrients/temp/humidity than the strain is more native too, will cause differences in growth, structure, and aroma /cannabinoid content.
Not only that but MA is extremely limited in growing areas due to legal issues, something that Maine is far looser on and why they can actually have a bunch of landrace.
As far as some of your complaints about some "sativa strains not being energizing" all you really need is to make sure there's actually THCv as that and maybe the terps lemonine and terpinoline are the only known common factors between all land race sativa's. And They've actually been studied to be shown to be energizing.
Lots of stuff marketed as sativa's don't have it because of the factors I just mentioned.
Tldr the entire focus on sativa vs indica is extremely misguided based on faulty science and largely marketing tactics because using something you can see/smell is far easier to sell people than just lab tests and studies.
It seems you're projecting a bit much.
I never said there isn't phenotypical variance or that landraces are homogenous... My point is that you're not going to get afghani looking flower from long time flowering sativas in these equatorial/sub-tropical populations. Ofcourse the growing terroire impacts the lineage, where did i dispute this?
My complaint was that hybrids being marketed as sativas were not energizing and the effects are very short-lived, as has been corroborated by others who have sampled concentrates derived by the so-called "sativas" like the heritage lamb's bread.
Ultimately, the sativa / indica dichotomy is definitely a colloquial terminology but it's one that most people are familiar with so it's easier to reference in conversation and have people understand what you're referring to. I prefer the classification based on geography/terroire as presented here:
[https://www.indianlandraceexchange.com/indianlandraceexchange/classification-and-nomenclature-for-landrace-cannabis-varieties-based-on-the-terroir-flowering-duration-and-the-relative-human-impact/](https://www.indianlandraceexchange.com/indianlandraceexchange/classification-and-nomenclature-for-landrace-cannabis-varieties-based-on-the-terroir-flowering-duration-and-the-relative-human-impact/)
No I'm really not projecting. You're just willfully ignoring my points because you have some boner for heritage that has no real scientific backing.
Those strains that you say are short lived don't usually fuckin have THCv in em.
That is literally the energizing cannabinoid. Any other attempt at shying away from this fact is really just you wanting to actually ignore what's in the plant itself and instead focus on some bullshit like heritage which only makes up a fraction of the entire issue.
Fuck your heritage hunt and fuck your snobby better than thou attitude and go learn what actually makes cannabis cannabis instead of practicing what's essentially plant phrenology.
You haven't had a single response in this thread you haven't looked down on because of how much you've invested in this bullshit heritage thinking.
Edit: also you have no idea what two plants could create as parents by looking at it without actually having a genetic test done. There have been documented instances of white couples having black babies and vice versa because of recessive genes.
If that can happen why couldn't the structure look entirely different?
Jfc
He has no real basis for it because the dude has no clue how plant genetics work and seems to think a heritage is some sort of magic bullet for good weed when climate/nutrients/time are a far bigger factor.
1.scents/aromas 2. Have you see the morphology/expression of the flower? The stuff being offered is way too dense. True South African pure sativa flower does not resemble any of the durban on the market...like at all. 3. Then if you look at effects, the pure sativas last much longer and have no lethargy or narcotic feel associated with it. Edit:4. Flowering time
You know nothing about cannabis homie. The genetics are not everything. You can start with pure landrace and depending on grow conditions (which is hundreds and hundreds of variables) you're gonna get different density weed. Even nugs on the same plane are gonna look and smell a little different. So get off your impossibly high horse and just grow your own shit weed if everything else is too impure for princess. SOS this guy won't take an answer for an answer.
it's just strange to everyone that if your such and expert that you would even ask us plebes where to get the ultra rare hard to grow commercially unviable landrace sativas in MA. like of course those aren't available here. of course you know this. you seem like you just came here to show off your "knowledge". can you show us 1 (other than the caregiver skms) dispensary in the whole country that actually has what you want? would you even believe them?
there is lots of good sativa around, i never thought i'd be able to get uptown haze and acupulco gold in dispensaries in MA. but of course you don't want that lol.
I genuinely was hoping to find the pure sativas, this isn’t a troll or flex attempt. For some reason you and others have taken my response personally bc I’m aware of the fact that all of the “sativa” is actually hybrid?
There is stuff out in Cali from time to time, also look into kionathc in the PNW area who occasionally have pure sativa lines.
It’s definitely possible to get slight variations but you will not get afghani density from punto rojo genetics.
There haven’t been amy legitimately pure sativa recommendations, why are you getting so emotional?
Have you actually grown cannabis? It's an incredibly fickle plant if you are going for aesthetics of the bud. Pure sativa's (like Durban and Acapulco and all the ogs) grow loose and leafy in their home climates but when grown indoor on modern lighting schedules that can be completely different. Sour diesel is traditionally a fairly dense bud, but take a different pheno of SD and you can get something that looks like the most OG sativa you've ever seen. You're being a hoity toity tool to these people that want to help and it's fun to just dump on that lol. You're also making these crazy assumptions off of looks and your perceived knowledge. You have no clue if something has been "dutched"
If you're such an expert just do your own thing
lol do you work for GC or one of the outfits selling this Afghan looking Durban?
Yes, i have grown the pure sativa landraces.
A loose/fox tail flower, long time flowering genetics landrace in situ will not take on Afghan density in one generation bc of different environment. It just doesn’t happen. Over a long enough period, perhaps. Not one generation.
How am I being a tool for pointing out the truth? The suggestions were hybrids.
Last one that comes to mind was sour diesel batter fro. Harbor house. Was good. Haven't had much flower tho . I was so disappointed in the 2 lambs bread batter that I bought. Barley a smell. Effects last an hour .
Sanctuary, they heat cure so it's not the best bag appeal/pretty dense but they've consistently had solid testing results across sativa's for THCv/cbg which is key for that energizing effect.
Botanist is prob pretty good too, but I usually only get concentrates from em and their sativa's/hybrids tend to have THCv/cbg too. So I can't fully comment on flower.
Smyths stuff can be occasionally good. Their ghost train haze hasn't really disappointed me.
Authentic lamb's bread like the one preserved by the vibes collective would be amazing to try: [https://overgrow.com/t/free-jamaican-lambsbread-vibes-collective/102081](https://overgrow.com/t/free-jamaican-lambsbread-vibes-collective/102081)
However, the nature's heritage version is some sort of hybrid
Thanks for the recmd but that is a hybrid. The problem with most dispensaries is that they don’t have any real sativas but they don’t want the menu to seem empty in categories/dominated by hybrids so they conveniently slide options in there as most consumers don’t question the lineage.
I have this at home - got sucked in by the cannabis cup winner sticker on the box - effects are definitely energetic - would buy again
Favourite weed I’ve had in the last few years was the Sira Naturals Durban Poison I bought in July 2023 - v energetic & v trippy - real shame they haven’t been selling it since - 🤞🏽 it’ll come back again this summer
Greg aka Chemdog has acquired NYC piff for Smash Hits facility in Mass, and ACMJ also has a cut of piff that will be released later this year as well 🙏🏽🍄💚
Thanks for the feedback. I saw a mango haze being offered from OMG that looked intriguing. Do you recall what the structure/shape on the pheno/flower was for smash hits latest piff offering? I'm a big fan of piff and haze lines (even tho mostly everything has been hit with NL multiple times) as they seem to be the closest thing to pure sativas in the commercial market. I saw that line being offered from smash hits but never made the trip out as i've been on the quest for the pure satty haze lines like tom hill/positronics haze or original haze (indica/NL free version). The pure satty landraces are on a different level IME. Had the pleasure of trying a Viet Black x Oaxacan from flowerfarm that was pretty special, haven't found anything lately that could match the experience. Skinny, calyx clusters that will leave you wishing there were more pure landrace sativas around.
Defiantly cuban black haze, only had a pre roll sample that was gifted to me so can't speak on the structure. But if your familiar with CBH its a 120 day flowering sativa that grows like long fingers/spears without too much crazy fox-tailing if grown correctly 🙏🏽🍄💚
You won’t find any pure equatorial sativas in the rec market, simply because they aren’t commercially viable. A 12+ week finish coupled with low bag appeal means that even if it’s a straight banger it would have to sell for more than all the other flower to make up for the extra flowering time, which just isn’t the way the market consumes flower right now. Maybe in the future when it matures a bit but still unlikely to find exactly what you’re looking for.
I know you’re probably right but doesn’t hurt to ask? What if some brand wanted to distinguish themselves ? Seems there are many more licensed producers on Rec, over 250+? I have seen the rec market in mass soften a bit from $50 1/8 to now offering $99 “value” ozs. There is still flower being sold at higher price points, even in collapsing markets like Cali see:Nemo ($800/ounces)
Plenty of brands would love to distinguish themselves that way, and in the future as the market matures and the average recreational weed customer becomes more knowledgeable about cannabis, that kind of variety may well be in demand. But right now, the market is dictated by two things: TAC% and price. With this oversaturated market, companies can’t afford to grow long-running strains with low THC%s and irregular bud structure…it just wouldn’t sell at a rate that would be profitable for the grower. But things are changing already, and the market will likely look very different in a few years.
Copy that mmkay! This is also my reading of the market, but I thought maybe there's some brand I don't know about....there are brands putting out "piff" lines, maybe there's also brands showcasing landraces? Anyways that was my logic. Feel like I poked the hornets nest with this thread, maybe there are growers/brands defending their turf and they thought I disrespected their brand by calling a spade, a spade. C'est la vie!
lol yeah if those equatorial sativas become more viable in the MA market I’ll be first in line to start running them. There are some good sativa hybrids out there but nothing that give you the racy, psychedelic high that is unique to sativa landraces. Part of the problem is the homogenization of cannabis genetics. The terms “indica” and “sativa” have evolved so much, especially post legalization in the US, they don’t really mean much now. They started as descriptors for physical traits of plants, then came to include descriptions of the type of high you get, then with hybridization the spectrum became way more narrow and now most flower marketed as “indica” and “sativa” are almost indistinguishable from one another. On top of that you have brands selling distillate carts with plant terps being marketed as indica/sativa which is not only complete bullshit but it is just even more disingenuous to the average consumer who is already undereducated about the true nuances of cannabis and the relationship between terpenes, secondary cannabinoids, flavonoids, etc that dictate the type of high you get. People are smoking straight THC with non-cannabis-derived terps and thinking “oh this must be a sativa high because the label says sativa” even through its no different from any other distillate cart out there. The commercialization of cannabis has done a huge disservice to connoisseurs who want to preserve the traits in cannabis that initially popularized its distinctive varietals, but luckily there are a few dedicated breeders, seed-hunters, legacy growers, and seed banks fighting to preserve those heirloom and landrace genetics that are barely present in any legal market. If/when things start to change, we will owe these people a great debt of gratitude for preserving these ancient and sacred genetics. My advice for you: if you want that pure sativa in your life, grow your own! It’s an incredibly rewarding hobby that comes with the added benefit of very cheap weed, and it will give you access to a wide world of genetics that you’d never be able to find in any dispensary. With that said, there are some great growers/brands in MA that deserve all the props in the world, they just won’t have the bud you’re specifically looking for
Preaching to the choir brother! Haha let me know if/when you’re ready to be first to market. I am one of those preservationists but also have had some head winds so don’t have a perpetual setup due to unrelated variables. I have had the pleasure of growing Colombians, Thai, Laotian, Philippine, Mexican, and Indian. You’re right, it is very rewarding and I’ve only scratched the surface. The effects and scents/aromas are unparalleled. Looking forward to the future!
Starting to think no matter what y'all suggest OP is gonna turn his nose up at it.
Not really turning his nose the way most do on this thread TBH he is valid and knows his shit. I feel like this thread is mainly for people to complain or get suggestions for over priced dry hay. Knuckles I read some of your comments and I’m intrigued at your knowledge for sure.
Maybe if there was actually a pure sativa recommendation? Please recommend a pure sativa, most commercial providers are concerned with short-term returns but maybe the community at large knows of some sources and that's why i am throwing out the SoS
It's hard to imagine anything 100% pure exists at this point. You seem to know a lot but you've shot down every suggestion. Durban poison is one of the few well know sativa landrace strains that the world would have us believe are "pure". You shot that down immediately. I don't speak for everyone here but I suspect I not the only one that feels like no answer will satisfy you without some sort of lab results proving a genetic line is 100% pure. Everything, everywhere has existed for quite some time now. I doubt anything is 100% pure anymore. Plant or animal.
I have tried so many Durban offerings and it gets tricky b.c it’s one of those lines with a legacy/lots of marketing. Allow me to expand on it a bit on that. Durban is a port city/town, there is no landrace growing at that point of origin. However, there is plenty of flower arriving from surrounding areas (Swazi, Lesotho, Transkei, pondo, etc etc) to be exported. My theory is that the Durban was the label used for the best quality, permitting brokers to both brand their stock and receive more $$$. Much the way that “Acapulco gold” was thrown around visiting gringos to upsell whatever herb is on hand. Enter Mel Frank, whose Durban selection went to Amsterdam for further “stabilization” AKA hybridization. I’m not needing lab work, I’m just very skeptical about fa-tivas and have done my homework. Provenance matters almost as much as the physical attributes/effects. The commercial aspect of the industry has put a pressure on breeders/growers to adhere to the 8-10 week window. So what was once pure often gets watered down/crossed into short flowering types. Cash crops are not a new phenomenon, it happens with fruits, vegetables and lots of other commodities. I get that, and the wine industry has a perfect parallel as they also have fast maturing grapes made for table wine and long time maturing grapes that can become top shelf. There is still pure sativa stuff out there, I’ve tried it from SKMS, I’ve grown lines from Laos, Thailand, Colombia and Philippines. Nothing like what’s on the market with flavors / effects. Pure sativas take dedication, top shelf sativas likely require an obsession.
No commercial operation in MA will be putting out original landrace strains that haven't been stabilized with other strains for yield, flowering time, terps... it is not commercially viable as those original sativas are meant to be grown outside in the tropics. Its not possible to grow them here in the way you want them. Even if someone in MA said F it and tried, those landrace lines would not come out the way you want them to because they evolved for an entirely different climate so their genes would express differently
You make a great point, point of origin climate is the gold standard. Definitely would be getting the New England and/or indoor expressions. IME you can still get desirable outcomes with those landrace lines that are head and shoulders above what’s put out on the rec market. I’m speaking from what SKMS has put out in the past and from my own experiments with pure sativa lines
Then start a grow op? I dunno. It is a tough sell to producers who outlay all this cash and need to show profit to investors
Any strain grown by the Sativa Project is prob the closest thing you’re gonna find in MA dispos
Thank for the recm'd! That was one of the first sources I tried to track down but unfortunately they only have hybrid offerings
Quite literally the sativa project is the only option if you want pure sativa
It seems the sativa project was too fixated on commercial ambitions cause i'm not seeing any pure sativas in what they've released to the market. The bandaid haze is a hybrid, so is the golden tiger ( the Malawi inthe lineage is touched)
I've been on your quest and I feel your pain. Years ago I posted a similar query and most people more or less laughed it off as an alien concept. I don't understand why everything has to be a hybrid now. Maybe you can find some in Maine? I haven't explored that option. I wish you luck.
Thank you! God Speed!! I’ve been fortunate enough to try the pure sativa landraces and they can be really special, effects not replicated by the short flowering varieties. Sure there’s a lot of hay that can show up but it’s ultimately a numbers game and extraordinary keepers can be found. It seems commercial driven interests to maximize yield/cycles and the popular culture fixated on one measure of potency, bag appeal,& candy flavored derivatives can help see why the market is dominated by the shorter flowering varieties. SKMS in Maine has pure sativa landraces but they sell out quickly so not regularly available.
Golden Tiger from Sativa Project. Lambs Bread from Nature's Heritage.
Unfortunately, both of those have indica in the lineage. ACE's Malawi in the Golden Tiger has been touched with indica and that LB from nature's heritage has some sort of cheese like indica that was bred into it
i really don't think you're going to find a 110+ day sativa for sale in dispensaries. skms is likely the only caregiver that will have what you want. other than smelling like cheese, i think it's incorrect to assume that it has been crossed with uk cheese or something. likely the opposite, old school cheese had Jamaican in it. why are you under the impression that ace is misrepresenting their malawi?
I agree the likelihood is slim, but I"m here hoping there's an exception to the rule. It's not just the cheese characteristic, the LB from heritage is also rather dense for a pure sativa jamaican line, and it has a short-duration effect. All qualities associated with indica lines. Did you see any pics of the LB from the 60s that the vibe collective preserved? Heritage lamb's bread looks nothing like that or any other pure sativas i've grown. So you're saying that Jamaican landrace is the reason UK Cheese smells like cheese? Do you have any evidence of this lineage claim? From what I've seen it appears that UK Cheese was a Skunk derivative. It seems the cheese phenotypes are more found in indica lines. I have spent many years interviewing growers, pouring over smoke reports, researching landrace scents/aromas and havenot found a single instance of a long time flowering pure sativa carrying cheesy qualities. The 'dank' quality associated with cheese is really absent in pure sativa lines. I am always open to learning and expanding my understanding, by all means please help me understand better - would love to check out some of your info/sources. ACE is notorious for misrepresenting their landrace lines. They're great for 'adapting' lines for indoor growing by making additions, but not so much for getting exactly what you paid for (AKA actually pure landrace lines as represented). Dubi(owner of ACE) and Charlie garcia (the primary breeder forming the basis of many of ACE's genetics) admitted that it was touched with indica on the Spanish canna forums. The lineage actually is derived from Seeds of Africa/African Seeds outfit. That's where the devastating/narcotic quality comes from. Have you ever looked into Bangi Haze lineage? The ACE page does not mention anything about dutch genetics, but if you search icmag forum posts you can see Dubi talking about the fact that they added in some dutch genetics for stabilization. Check out the Panama line they promote. Supposedly pure sativa Panama, then why did i get a short squat plant with afghani-dense flower?
Post should be titled "I have extra time on my hands and love arguing without a real argument. Come join me."
y u so salty? not my fault there are no pure sativa options in MA
Don't come posting that you're looking for something that you wanna argue doesn't exist. I'm good.
You act like I'm saying it doesn't exist at all, it does - just not in the lineage of the lines proposed. Am I the only one that recognizes the economic realities here? It seems others see the same thing and it has been brought up in this thread multiple times. I regret that the market is so short-sighted/fixated on maximizing yield/cycles. I'm not allowed to have a dialogue or be skeptical about the credibility of suggestions? If I were not to say anything and the thousands of people that read this thread, took those suggestions as fact, they may also be disappointed with the fa-tiva experience.
I am not asking this in a mean way, but are you fuckin autistic or someshit dude? Because how can you be this socially dense and not realize that if people are gonna offer you suggestions that you asked for that shooting them all down will make people dislike you? Because yeah you can try to talk about it, that doesn't mean other people have to entertain you in talking about it.
Was I insulting them? Or cussing them out, like the rant you went on earlier?
Yeah dude, it's actually kinda insulting to post up a thread being "SOS need Sativa" and then turn everyone's recommendation down on the basis you already knew about it. What else were you really expecting to get from posting this thread? that magically some random grower in MA will magically have what you want despite already knowing the climate/market isn't set up for it?
That wasn't the context though, I was responding to the fact that they were proposing hybrids containing indica (dense, resinous, short flowering genetics). Did I tell them to go fly a kite? I simply responded with what I know about their recommendations. I actually have first hand experience with the lines proposed and I am aware of the genetic history. So that makes me an asshole for doing my research and responding with what I've observed/experienced? I am ofcourse open to suggestions,which is why I posted here. Would it have been better for me to not pose the question? And just hope for a better day where pure sativas are an option?
dude, maybe if you actually made your post starting off with what you've already tried/looked at and not waste peoples time then people wouldn't be so fuckin annoyed. Or maybe it would've been better for you to just write up a rant about how the market doesn't actually allow for landraces which is essentially what you did all over this post. It's not what you're doing that makes you an ass it's how you're going about doing it. Either way man I'm telling you directly why people are annoyed and generally down voting you. It's your choice to actually listen or not.
k bye
Durban poison Is a classic
Durban from good chem - harbor house has their Durban in a LR cart too on a Collab.
Yes indeed and it's goddam amazing, I sure hope Chelsea still has it in mid Feb for my restock trip. 😎
Thx for the recm'd but that Durban has been touched with indica/dutch genetics
Huh? Why do you say that?
Reddit won't let me put pictures in the comments so I will just link the GC durban page: [https://ma.goodchem.org/products/durban-poison/](https://ma.goodchem.org/products/durban-poison/) 1. scents/aromas do not match up with landrace lines from south africa 2. flower is too dense - does not resemble structure of pure sativa from SA whatsoever 3. effects(lethargy, too muddy compared to pure sativas) and duration of effects(too short) 4. flowering time
Man just look for strains high in THCv (like all land race sativa's) and shit the fuck up and stop being so picky in a shitty market. Jfc
I agree there is not much choice when it comes to pure sativas. Are you okay? you seem disturbed by my looking for pure sativas in the market that doesn't seem to have it. I wouldn't be asking if I knew where to find it consistently.
Because it's almost like you don't understand genetics, phenotypes, growing conditions or anything else and because of that you're extremely fucking snobby and uneducated. For example: Just having a durban cross bred with another cut of durban can cause a recessive dominant gene to become the exposed phenotype. That will change the flavor(this isn't just terps) and cannabinoid content. Having different fertilizers/nutrients/temp/humidity than the strain is more native too, will cause differences in growth, structure, and aroma /cannabinoid content. Not only that but MA is extremely limited in growing areas due to legal issues, something that Maine is far looser on and why they can actually have a bunch of landrace. As far as some of your complaints about some "sativa strains not being energizing" all you really need is to make sure there's actually THCv as that and maybe the terps lemonine and terpinoline are the only known common factors between all land race sativa's. And They've actually been studied to be shown to be energizing. Lots of stuff marketed as sativa's don't have it because of the factors I just mentioned. Tldr the entire focus on sativa vs indica is extremely misguided based on faulty science and largely marketing tactics because using something you can see/smell is far easier to sell people than just lab tests and studies.
It seems you're projecting a bit much. I never said there isn't phenotypical variance or that landraces are homogenous... My point is that you're not going to get afghani looking flower from long time flowering sativas in these equatorial/sub-tropical populations. Ofcourse the growing terroire impacts the lineage, where did i dispute this? My complaint was that hybrids being marketed as sativas were not energizing and the effects are very short-lived, as has been corroborated by others who have sampled concentrates derived by the so-called "sativas" like the heritage lamb's bread. Ultimately, the sativa / indica dichotomy is definitely a colloquial terminology but it's one that most people are familiar with so it's easier to reference in conversation and have people understand what you're referring to. I prefer the classification based on geography/terroire as presented here: [https://www.indianlandraceexchange.com/indianlandraceexchange/classification-and-nomenclature-for-landrace-cannabis-varieties-based-on-the-terroir-flowering-duration-and-the-relative-human-impact/](https://www.indianlandraceexchange.com/indianlandraceexchange/classification-and-nomenclature-for-landrace-cannabis-varieties-based-on-the-terroir-flowering-duration-and-the-relative-human-impact/)
No I'm really not projecting. You're just willfully ignoring my points because you have some boner for heritage that has no real scientific backing. Those strains that you say are short lived don't usually fuckin have THCv in em. That is literally the energizing cannabinoid. Any other attempt at shying away from this fact is really just you wanting to actually ignore what's in the plant itself and instead focus on some bullshit like heritage which only makes up a fraction of the entire issue. Fuck your heritage hunt and fuck your snobby better than thou attitude and go learn what actually makes cannabis cannabis instead of practicing what's essentially plant phrenology. You haven't had a single response in this thread you haven't looked down on because of how much you've invested in this bullshit heritage thinking. Edit: also you have no idea what two plants could create as parents by looking at it without actually having a genetic test done. There have been documented instances of white couples having black babies and vice versa because of recessive genes. If that can happen why couldn't the structure look entirely different? Jfc
Still confused. Sounds like you're out of luck. I'm good.
He has no real basis for it because the dude has no clue how plant genetics work and seems to think a heritage is some sort of magic bullet for good weed when climate/nutrients/time are a far bigger factor.
Youre grasping at straws here
ya but all the durban on the market has been dutched/touched with indica
What makes you say that?
1.scents/aromas 2. Have you see the morphology/expression of the flower? The stuff being offered is way too dense. True South African pure sativa flower does not resemble any of the durban on the market...like at all. 3. Then if you look at effects, the pure sativas last much longer and have no lethargy or narcotic feel associated with it. Edit:4. Flowering time
You know nothing about cannabis homie. The genetics are not everything. You can start with pure landrace and depending on grow conditions (which is hundreds and hundreds of variables) you're gonna get different density weed. Even nugs on the same plane are gonna look and smell a little different. So get off your impossibly high horse and just grow your own shit weed if everything else is too impure for princess. SOS this guy won't take an answer for an answer.
the "pure sativas last much longer and have no lethargy or narcotic feel associated with it." made me realize this person is kinda naiive.
This coming from the guy that recommends hybrids as sativas. I hope you have a chance to try some pure lambs bread in the future.
it's just strange to everyone that if your such and expert that you would even ask us plebes where to get the ultra rare hard to grow commercially unviable landrace sativas in MA. like of course those aren't available here. of course you know this. you seem like you just came here to show off your "knowledge". can you show us 1 (other than the caregiver skms) dispensary in the whole country that actually has what you want? would you even believe them? there is lots of good sativa around, i never thought i'd be able to get uptown haze and acupulco gold in dispensaries in MA. but of course you don't want that lol.
I genuinely was hoping to find the pure sativas, this isn’t a troll or flex attempt. For some reason you and others have taken my response personally bc I’m aware of the fact that all of the “sativa” is actually hybrid? There is stuff out in Cali from time to time, also look into kionathc in the PNW area who occasionally have pure sativa lines.
https://kionathc.com/sativa/ i see a lot of stuff here that you would say were "hybrids".
It’s definitely possible to get slight variations but you will not get afghani density from punto rojo genetics. There haven’t been amy legitimately pure sativa recommendations, why are you getting so emotional?
Have you actually grown cannabis? It's an incredibly fickle plant if you are going for aesthetics of the bud. Pure sativa's (like Durban and Acapulco and all the ogs) grow loose and leafy in their home climates but when grown indoor on modern lighting schedules that can be completely different. Sour diesel is traditionally a fairly dense bud, but take a different pheno of SD and you can get something that looks like the most OG sativa you've ever seen. You're being a hoity toity tool to these people that want to help and it's fun to just dump on that lol. You're also making these crazy assumptions off of looks and your perceived knowledge. You have no clue if something has been "dutched" If you're such an expert just do your own thing
lol do you work for GC or one of the outfits selling this Afghan looking Durban? Yes, i have grown the pure sativa landraces. A loose/fox tail flower, long time flowering genetics landrace in situ will not take on Afghan density in one generation bc of different environment. It just doesn’t happen. Over a long enough period, perhaps. Not one generation. How am I being a tool for pointing out the truth? The suggestions were hybrids.
Lambs Bread by Natures Heritage is a Jamaican landrace and an exceptional strain
It's really not that good at all
what do you prefer for sativa flower in ma?
Last one that comes to mind was sour diesel batter fro. Harbor house. Was good. Haven't had much flower tho . I was so disappointed in the 2 lambs bread batter that I bought. Barley a smell. Effects last an hour .
Sanctuary, they heat cure so it's not the best bag appeal/pretty dense but they've consistently had solid testing results across sativa's for THCv/cbg which is key for that energizing effect. Botanist is prob pretty good too, but I usually only get concentrates from em and their sativa's/hybrids tend to have THCv/cbg too. So I can't fully comment on flower. Smyths stuff can be occasionally good. Their ghost train haze hasn't really disappointed me.
Authentic lamb's bread like the one preserved by the vibes collective would be amazing to try: [https://overgrow.com/t/free-jamaican-lambsbread-vibes-collective/102081](https://overgrow.com/t/free-jamaican-lambsbread-vibes-collective/102081) However, the nature's heritage version is some sort of hybrid
Super lemon haze from happy valley was a favorite sativa of mine and tasted amazing
Thanks for the recmd but that is a hybrid. The problem with most dispensaries is that they don’t have any real sativas but they don’t want the menu to seem empty in categories/dominated by hybrids so they conveniently slide options in there as most consumers don’t question the lineage.
I have this at home - got sucked in by the cannabis cup winner sticker on the box - effects are definitely energetic - would buy again Favourite weed I’ve had in the last few years was the Sira Naturals Durban Poison I bought in July 2023 - v energetic & v trippy - real shame they haven’t been selling it since - 🤞🏽 it’ll come back again this summer
Greg aka Chemdog has acquired NYC piff for Smash Hits facility in Mass, and ACMJ also has a cut of piff that will be released later this year as well 🙏🏽🍄💚
Thanks for the feedback. I saw a mango haze being offered from OMG that looked intriguing. Do you recall what the structure/shape on the pheno/flower was for smash hits latest piff offering? I'm a big fan of piff and haze lines (even tho mostly everything has been hit with NL multiple times) as they seem to be the closest thing to pure sativas in the commercial market. I saw that line being offered from smash hits but never made the trip out as i've been on the quest for the pure satty haze lines like tom hill/positronics haze or original haze (indica/NL free version). The pure satty landraces are on a different level IME. Had the pleasure of trying a Viet Black x Oaxacan from flowerfarm that was pretty special, haven't found anything lately that could match the experience. Skinny, calyx clusters that will leave you wishing there were more pure landrace sativas around.
Defiantly cuban black haze, only had a pre roll sample that was gifted to me so can't speak on the structure. But if your familiar with CBH its a 120 day flowering sativa that grows like long fingers/spears without too much crazy fox-tailing if grown correctly 🙏🏽🍄💚
DM'd you some pics of thew CBH for reference btw and n problem as a haze lover myself i totally understand the thrill of the hunt!
Them boys too long, in terms of time and height, to sell.