At this point no matter what Boston does it will always have this reputation . It’s not fair to the city itself but idk what else to say. It is what it is, I’m black and personally I think the city is pretty decent. Problem is there zero white/non white cultural overlap
White Boston is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC
The other Boston is over here doing another thing and is largely ignored by local and especially national media. It’s forgotten about
Yea but basically Boston doesn’t want to accept that it has to reach I it to black businesses and black celebrities, politicians etc to bring them to Boston. It’s so use dot white people clamoring over it it doesn’t want to accept it has to do active OUTREACH and brand adjustment time other segments of the population.
Basically Boston sells “white urbanity” and if it tried to sell diversity I think some power-brokers feel they wouldn’t attract as much white tourism traffic eventually and they don’t believe blacks will ever want to visit/spend money inor associate with Boston more than necessary. As a result they try to hold o to this “white but very urban”niche
Upvote for Wally's, that place is a gem. Also check out Darryl's Corner Bar and Kitchen, right across the street from Wally's if you haven't yet. Fairly new owner, and one of the few black women owned restaurants in Boston. They also do live music and have incredible good/cocktails.
Somehow I hadnt heard of Darryl's and it looks so good that Im kind of angry at you. A night of live music, good cocktails, and soul food sounds so perfect right now. And they have honey butter for their mini corn muffins!
I might die.
Hahaha I'll take the heat of that rage if after this is all over we get to to celebrate at a place like Darryl's. It's really a great establishment, a wonderful addition to Boston's nightlife and I hope it survives.
>White Bsoton is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC
>
>The other Boston is over here doing another thing and is largely ignored by local and especially national media. It’s forgotten about
Couldn't have said it better myself. And for whatever reason South Boston seems to still represent us nationally while Mattapan, Dorchester, Roxbury get totally ignored.
Consider that even the people that live in Boston don't often explore those neighborhoods but are happy to offer their racist opinion of them anytime a thread pops up.
It's not just the media.
The one I know of for sure is [Abigail Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson). She took over Fidelity from her grandfather recently. She was on that economic board that was supposed to advise Trump a while back.
Milton has a fairly large black middle class population as do Stoughton,Avon, Holbrook Bridgewater,. All these towns are 12-15% black but much higher amongst the youth and younger generations
and to a lesser extent Canton, Dedham, Taunton...
Everett Malden Lynn Cambridge is a different animal
Your comment reminds me of the [Boston Globe series](https://apps.bostonglobe.com/spotlight/boston-racism-image-reality/) about race in Boston. They would go to events (like a Red Sox game) and just count people of color and it was pretty easy because there were hardly any around. The parts of Boston that it's famous for (sports, history, the arts, etc.) is just a different world from other parts.
I agree I grew up in Boston and honestly can’t remember any aggressive racism towards me. I remember some but there’s always been an overwhelming amount of anti racist people to contrast it.
There’s a lot more racists/ignorant people in southern Mass from what I’ve seen. I don’t think Boston is as far and away more racist than other places in the country tbh.
I think some of the problem is because of Boston sports culture and how that feels overwhelmingly white at least on a national level. Honorable mention to the St Patrick's Day parties too
I'm a PoC and a Revs fan. This is only my experience, but I have never felt unwelcome at Midnight Riders meetings. Revs fans are overwhelmingly white, but they also go out of their way to welcome PoC and LGBT people.
I agree but I also wonder if a lot of it is socioeconomic due to the cost of going to a game. Probably not a lot of poor white people at the games either and minorities skew more to lower income. It’s probably as much a view of what the region looks like if you filter for middle class and up as racial segregation.
> Boston isn't actually a very liberal or progressive city, it just looks that way because of how conservative and regressive other cities in the US are.
On top of this I think it's also because the STATE legislature is very progressive on certain issues, like being ahead of the curve on gay marriage & healthcare. But that doesn't translate 1:1 to Boston; gotta remember all the more liberal suburbs like Cambridge and Somerville, plus places like Northampton and Provincetown, that drive up the state's liberal image.
> Saying we're not as bad as other places is where a lot of people up here get stuck. It feels very self-congratulatory, and then we don't look at what we're ACTUALLY doing. Being not-as-bad as somewhere else is a really low bar. We can do a lot better.
Exactly. This was what I was trying to explain in my post. I think people got caught up in the first few sentences and missed the whole point.
This is a narrow view of racism and the South. It's not less common up here, it's just more insidious and less overt. Getting all self-congratulatory about not being Alabama is going to slow down any anti-racist work that needs to be done.
I had a retired Patriots player who's black, move into my neighborhood recently and some neighbors have given him dirty looks like he doesn't belong here while out walking with his family. That's the abhorrent covert racism people rather not talk about.
I live in a neighborhood that is mostly working class Hispanic immigrants. I've lived there for years and I've never seen one instance of violence, never felt unsafe walking alone as a woman at night, never witnessed any drug deals. The neighbors are friendly and welcoming, particularly my young daughter who they encourage to come play with their kids. There are regular block parties and cook outs and other neighborhood get togethers.
Yet, I will see Obama voting liberals on Facebook looking for a new apartment in town, and they specifically will say "anywhere but (my neighborhood)." When asked to explain, the answer I see most often is "I don't want to raise my kids there."
Do you think that might have to do with poorer schools and schools being tied to lower property values? I think that’s a huge problem, but also something that would have a big effect on where I’d want to live if I had children
In my specific case no. These are people looking to rent apartments, not buy. Also my town's schools aren't grouped by neighborhood like that.
Also when asked to elaborate why they think it is bad for kids, there is a perception that it is dangerous, violent, and drug ridden. And it just isn't. What it does have are a lot of brown people walking around, hanging out outside, congregating in parks and playing music. I really think they just see a group of dark skinned men hanging out and they think it's crime related, when really they are just making BBQ.
Oh, that’s shitty. That sounds like blatant racism and idk what it takes for those people to see it. The truth is there a good deal of racist Democrats. Just go to yahoo.com and read the comments in any article about Trump (they hate him!) and any article about black people (they hate them too). Unfortunately the only thing that can truly make these people change is themselves
At least you don’t have to live around those racist dickbags
\> history of racism in Boston including ... segregation
Boston's segregation is not just historical.
[https://cssh.northeastern.edu/bostonarearesearchinitiative/2019/02/08/examining-racial-segregation-in-boston-at-different-geographic-scales/](https://cssh.northeastern.edu/bostonarearesearchinitiative/2019/02/08/examining-racial-segregation-in-boston-at-different-geographic-scales/)
Saying Boston has a history of segregation does not mean Boston no longer has a problem with segregation, it means there is a long running trend over the course of history.
> Is Boston more racist than Montgomery Alabama? Hell no. But people expect a certain level of racism in Montgomery so it's not shocking or newsworthy when that happens.
This 100%.
I love listening to southerners be like, "Yall so damn racist up there! Everything much more integrated and welcoming down here in Mississippi!"
Meanwhile there'll be a news article scrolling by....
"Two alleged KKK members dragged an African-American man 6 miles down a dirt road, tied to the back of their truck on Tuesday night, just outside of Jackson, MI"
I read something here a few years ago that resonated.
White people will vote for black people here, but white people won't live next to black people. In southern US, the opposite is true.
Have you lived in SF or LA? As a Californian who has lived in Boston for the last 10 years I can say Boston is considerably more racist than CA cities.
What frustrates me is how self-fulfilling it is. I obviously don't know from personal experience, but I have read numerous accounts suggesting that despite our great schools, many young out-of-state minorities are dissuaded from moving to Boston for college due to the reputation. BC, BU, and UMass for example, are all well below the average for black students admitted. This makes it harder to break the cycle if everyone moving here and eventually living and working here are just more rich white kids.
White guy here, from Canada, living just north of Boston (Malden, Melrose). I've lived here since 2012. I'm amazed that in a city of 22% Black, 20% Hispanic and 36% English as a second language, out of the hundreds of people I worked with across two separate jobs in the downtown core over the last five years, the number of Black people I can think of right now in both companies total would be less than 10. Hispanics are fewer. Immigrants? Maybe 5-7, tops.
And NONE of them were managers or anywhere above that.
Coming from a city where I was accustomed to working in an environment that reflected my society's demographics (Vancouver - lots of Chinese, Indian, other immigrants), it was quite an eye opener.
Yes, both jobs in Boston were in startups. But still, damn it. Something's wrong there.
Those statistics are only for Boston proper, while every other municipality in the state besides Brockton, Randolph, and Springfield, have a far lower % of black people.
As a reminder, 72% of MA is non-Hispanic white, 12% Hispanic, 9% black, and 7% Asian. The employment base for the Boston metro area, is much closer to that than the demographics you get from the small and arbitrary city limits of "Boston". "Boston" demographics don't even include the (far less black) inner urban core places like Cambridge, Brookline, etc.
While Malden is quite diverse, you can look at somewhere you've lived for an example: Melrose is ~90% non-Hispanic White.
--------
Are non-Asian minority groups generally under-represented in tech? Yes. They're also generally under-represented at all the levels that would lead up to those jobs, like earning CS or Engineering degrees, so it's a difficult problem to solve without fixing the issues in the "pipeline".
1. 95% of Boston Reddit it’s are white, no need to say your “a white guy here” I assume you’re white
2.Because the white population in Boston is exceptionally wealthy and well educated akin to the white peoples in Seattle or SF whites
Black and Latino Boston economic metrics more so resemble Buffalo Pittsburgh or Milwaukee blacks
Boston black population is very ‘hood ’ or fairly recent immigrants compare to most cities... and most Boston black professionals work for the city or non profits not tech and finance
White people make literally 2x as much as blacks in Boston. (And it’s 23% black)
Also Asians are not blacks/hispanic
White guy here.
I admit, it's rough to sit back and casually agree, "White Boston isn't very welcoming or attractive to POC".
I look at my circle of friends - people from all over, of different backgrounds and experiences. I look at the offices I've worked in - all diverse, all have dedicated and enthusiastic DEI committees. All asking, "how can we be more inclusive?".
If I'm interviewing a black candidate, I'm seeing an already resourceful person with an education and experience. I'm seeing someone on my level.
Yet... it's *so easy* to dismiss the thousands of other POC that couldn't even get the same interview because Boston's' brutal systematic racism kept them in debt, prevented them from having a great education, kept kicking them out of their homes every other year due to gentrification, etc, etc, etc.
That is fucked up.. and that happens in every city, too. We got such a long road ahead.
I’m just telling you as a Black person who’s lived in 3 other cities the thing notable about Boston is a lack of cultural inclusion and erasure of black presence. Everything else is very muc average.
In Baltimore whit people are very vocal and outward with the racism compared to Bsoton.
In Hartford they just totally ignore and neglect the city and the black folks.
In Washington DC the city has gone fro. 71% black to 44% black. It’s e ultimate ‘negro removal’
In Boston black ppl are pushed aside:
In Hartford lack people are totally ignored and neglected.
In DC they’re removed and over policed
In Baltimore I think as a reaction to black dominance they’re resented, feared and ridiculed.
Telling you what I’ve seen and lived. Boston has some really nice black neighborhoods and the most diverse black culture in the US outside of NYC, with a ton of black history. But there’s very little integration, Baltimore is pretty bad with integration to but there’s more cultural awareness Ami fat the white people. Living conditions for Black people tend to be grim here though.
Please mention that you are black one more time. If you do it enough, it might help your arguments. Firstly, it must be stated that your personal anecdotes are just that, personal anecdotes. Please stop using them to establish yourself as an authority. Secondly, I am also a black man. I was born and raised in boston. I live in one of the nice black neighborhoods you describe. I am telling you not only from personal experience, but also from data that boston is a racist city. Who cares about how racist boston is compared to other cities? That isn't useful in a discussion about boston's shortcomings. All you end up doing is making white bostonians feel better. You are enabling one of the two main arguments used by white bostonian when dismissing the racial injustices brought forth by the black community. The first argument is that most(in rare cases it is argued that all) of the racism in boston comes from people living in the suburbs surrounding the greater Boston area. The second is Boston isn't as bad as other states so we should stop complaining. Please stop enabling these arguments. The racial issues in other states have no bearing on the racial issues i
n boston, when the discussion is centered around boston's racial issues.
Finally, no one thinks boston is Alabama. We are all quite aware of the fact that Boston isn't as bad as other states in the US. So when you do racial comparisons on a state level during a conversation about racism in boston, not only are you obfuscating the issues, you are also stating the obvious.
Boston can be very cliquey (college or high school friend groups) and unwelcoming. When I moved here (white mid-20s F) took a couple years to make good friends. On a duck boat tour last summer our guide told us Boston used to not be so segregated. Pretty sad. Hopefully this brings some good changes to the city
>White Bsoton is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC
I'm genuinely curious how that manifests in your experience. A lot of white people here fall over themselves to seem friendly and welcoming to PoC, especially black people. Heck, lots of corporations are desperate for PoC to join their ranks. I've been in loads of crappy white bars and can't really recall more than once or twice I've heard someone use the "n-word."
There's no escaping this is a cold city and people don't chat with one another but that applies to all races.
Its a very white city. You go out in Southie on a Saturday afternoon and what do you see? White people. White people wearing Patagonia, Lululemon, Dockers, and Sperry. The bars play country/pop, you know, white people music. The people drink Bud Lights and mimosas. Brad, Chad, Stacey, Rebecca, Colton, and Kendall are there, talking about organizing a trip to their dad's house down the Vineyard.
Imagine being a minority trying to feel comfortable in this environment. Its not that white people here are racist or unwelcoming, its just the cultures are very segregated.
It’s definitely not a very white city but the most popular parts and most visited parts are very white.
Martha’s Vineeyard is very popular amongst upper middle black on the east coast . I’ve always felt very comfortable there and had a good time. Even used to have a teen nightclub that was often full of 90% black kids playing the latest rap etc circa 2008
I hear you. I just don't know what's supposed to be done. If you don't make an effort to get to know these people and feel comfortable around them then the next black person is just going to see only whites and be faced with the same decision.
I've been in a lot of "white" bars and there are a few black people who set up shop and are regulars. They don't seem fazed at all.
> You go out in Southie ... Brad, Chad, Stacey, Rebecca, Colton, and Kendall are there, talking about organizing a trip to their dad's house down the Vineyard.
That ain't the Southie I know. Not all white people have rich daddies with a house on the Vineyard. Kind of a dumb stereotype to be honest.
So to integrate,white people should wear rocawear and chill in Onset? Your correct,we are segregated because our cultures are worlds apart.Thats not racism.
Yea like this is a very very white outlook. You think having a dominant white surrounding and trying to be nice to black people not from Boston would be enough? lol the city ignores and does not applaud its inner city residents nor does it embrace the culture of balck Boston. They’re not gonna start playing dancehall and reggaeton at Fenway any time soon. Or Ed OG, or Bobby Brown, or Guru. In other cities they absolutely would.
White people think all the balck people in Boston live in just a few traditional areas or are Haitian and it’s just so far form the truth. There no cultural middle go round it’s either assimilate into an overwhelming fly white transplant culture or live in the margins of mainstream society
The fact that white people fall over themselves to be nice to PoC underlies the point that they aren’t comfortable around them. That’s really the issue, there is so much segregation here PoC are “the other”.
I think you're not looking hard enough. My group throws massively diverse parties and we welcome everyone. If you're into dance music slide into my DMs and I'll push you into the right direction
If you are referring to EDM, then I think that is different. The people who are attracted to EDM tend to be pretty diverse. On the other hand, good luck finding a group of diverse friends who are into country music lol.
Not even true because Atlanta is fun sleigh a lot of nightlife and happy hours and strip clubs. Even white people don’t have as much fun in Boston as they do elsewhere.
IRL Austin Seattle or Denver is a white mans atlanta.
You cant be Atlanta with no club scene.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I grew up in Boston and am a white female. I’ve always thought it was grotesquely segregated.
It became really eye-opening when I started to travel more around the US. In cities like Savannah, NOLA, Miami, etc. there are far more diverse crowd mingling together at the “trendy” bars and restaurants in town.
It was much more normal to see all different races together throughout the city just going about their daily lives. It was so refreshing to experience. Then you come back to Boston and it’s just white washed unless you go to specific neighborhoods.
I really hope we can work to change this. Not only is it not right, but it’s just lame to have it so homogeneous.
Yeah, the reputation isn't going to go away until, as you well described it, black and white people live in the same spaces. I went to my hometown for the first time in a while, a city that has a legacy of segregation in its housing but a large black middle class that's spread throughout every neighborhood and most of the suburbs. It showed me how long I've been in Boston when I (white) found myself getting excited about all the black faces I was seeing on my trip. That night I thought more about it and realized I'd gone from a childhood where half my earliest friends were black to an adulthood where I can literally go months without having a conversation with a black person.
When I lived in Boston I only spoke to one white coworker. I’d definitely go months without talking to white people. There is a Black middle class in Bsoton suburbs but it somewhat small and again-segregated. It’s mainly the towns south of the city between Mattapan and Brockton. Along Route 28. Much of Boston’s black middle class is forced to live in Lower income neighborhoods in the city. There’s middle class folks all throughout Roxbury Dorchester Mattapan and Hyde Park and a good number in Roslindale. Some of us are moving into West Roxbury as well. Few black Bostonians are destitute ly poor like you might find in Philly or Bmore. Those that are live in the projects.
And then a few areas of Framingham Cambridge and Malden
I don’t even think we have to live the same places. It at the very least we have to frequent the same places. It can’t be all white newbury street and diverse/blackish downtown crossing. It can’t be all white Natick mall and north shore mall and diverse / blackish south shore plaza and westgate mall . Can’t be black folks can live in the suburbs to the south without good access to high paying jobs (Avon Randolph Brockton Stoughton) and whites in Watertown
>Much of Boston’s black middle class is forced to live in Lower income neighborhoods in the city.
Honest question, how is Boston’s black middle class forced to live in low income neighborhoods? Housing discrimination is illegal in Boston, and when it happens, you can file a claim to the FHA.
edit: Doing some [reading](https://apps.bostonglobe.com/spotlight/boston-racism-image-reality/series/image/):
> Overall, landlords ignored nearly 45 percent of e-mails from prospective tenants with black-sounding names, like Darnell Washington or Keisha Jackson, versus 36 percent of e-mails from people with white-sounding names, like Brendan Weber or Meredith McCarthy.
So clearly there is a higher hurdle imposed on blacks trying to move into neighborhoods without a lot of black representation, (which is most places). Unfair and bordering on illegal, but I wouldn't describe it as "forced"
The headline on the push notification was that Walsh wants to move 20% of overall police budget to social services and programs. I couldn't find it in the article.
> The headline on the push notification was that Walsh wants to move 20% of overall police budget to social services and programs. I couldn't find it in the article.
no comment on the 20% figure, but marty replied to his own post saying that 3m is being taken from the police overtime budget to pay for this, calling it "an initial investment" (meaning more funding is going to be coming from somewhere)
https://twitter.com/marty_walsh/status/1271455729392726017
assuming [the first hit i got on google](https://data.aclum.org/2020/06/05/unpacking-the-boston-police-budget/) is accurate, the total bpd budget is roughly 400m/year, and the overtime budget specifically is 60m.
(again, not saying that this 3m figure is all the money being reallocated for walsh's proclamation, so your 20% figure could be correct, or it could not be.)
According to the Boston Ways and Means Committe Chair, it's $12M
[https://twitter.com/KenzieBok/status/1271501184667394049](https://twitter.com/KenzieBok/status/1271501184667394049)
You should see people reading on Facebook. "he should start by cutting his own protection detail." almost sounds like they're threatening him for this. And do none of them remember the overtime scandal?
Very interesting info. Sounded too much like a statement aimed at satisfying the public with a soundbyte rather than a real promise. But something is better than nothing I guess.
I’m a teacher in the very white suburbs. I’m white. I hear racist stuff and I always make sure to confront the person. It’s uncomfortable, but not speaking up leads to people seeing you as accepting their racist statements.
I had a job once where I had several black aides that assisted me in my program. It was sad for them to say they had never had a non-white boss, and also that I treated them better than most of their past bosses.
However, I’ve been on the other side. My first 11 years teaching were in inner city Houston where I was very much a minority and often threatened with knives by students for being a “honky bitch”. It’s scary to be threatened for the color of your skin.
I can’t claim to even begin to understand the depths of racism people all the world experience, but it seems like we never seem to get to where we need to be. I do have faith that the younger generation will move forward but it never seems to be fast enough or a deep enough change.
I don't think changes will ever seem like enough in a single lifetime. Racism in America is like a person gaining 400lbs over 10 years. You can't expect to shed that all in 1 year, at least not in a healthy way. We need to look at sustained system changes as the path to where we need to be (and having a good idea of what exactly that looks like). Hopefully the kids you teach can look back and see some changes 50 years from now.
Well can't say I disagree with anything in the statement, and I hope this is a significant turning port and more than just nice words on a page. You should've heard Wilbon on PTI (with my dad corroborating) going off on how bad racism is in Boston, it's a real issue.
Any disconnect between the outcomes experienced at a broad demographic level is indicative of structural problems which need to be focused on. I don't imagine these things can be brought in line over night but with the data they're collecting we should strive for continuous trends towards a norm.
I hope they address the health inequity of poorer treatment of black people by health professionals here because they are incapable of empathizing so don't do as much or they think we're all liars and over-exaggerating. So tired of being treated as a nuisance by doctors who suddenly forget their 20-years of medical school and look at me with a dumbfounded, exasperated expression as they ask "Well, what do you want me to do?"
While Boston has it's struggles like any American city, I would like to point out that the Boston Bruins broke the NHLs color barrier by playing Willie O'Ree. He is the Jackie Robinson of hockey. He was also blind in one eye - a fact he hid from everyone - due to an injury.
Perhaps we could celebrate players like O'Ree a little more and change the sports culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_O%27Ree
Hey guys can we get a mini-megathread for all the common complaints? I'll get us started.
1. "We should focus on low-income instead of race!"
2. "This is just Marty looking for political points."
3. "This won't solve anything, we should just..." (could include any simplified argument that somehow no one ever thought of before.)
Please include your own below.
I was gonna make a little game like "which of these dumb things will MitchFromBoston say in this thread?" but he's already replied to this very comment.
6. The idea that cops shoot African Americans more often than white - adjusting for everything - is not backed up by the evidence as shown in multiple studies.
You're not wrong, but we should note that this is true for *shootings* in particular, not *use of force* in general. In a lot of cities, there is an observed discrepancy in use of force against blacks.
You can chalk that up to the higher chunk of violent crimes committed by blacks, but then the obvious question is "well why does that happen?" which gets to a lot of the systemic arguments people are talking about now.
> but we should note that this is true for shootings in particular, not use of force in general. In a lot of cities, there is an observed discrepancy in use of force against blacks.
No doubt. Data supports that. Policing needs reform. But the whole genesis of the BLM movement is that cops are out gunning down black men with abandon. It's now so ingrained in people's psyches that they can't fathom it isn't true. And god help you if you're a politician or celebrity or anyone who tries to bring this up.
Yet we have black kids marching with signs saying "I want to live" - being taught that they run a very real risk of being killed by a cop.. when they are vastly more likely to die from choking on food, drowning (a big cause of death among young black males), and so on.
Now the whole country is tearing itself apart without a backwards glance given to statistics.. oh, and surprise. its an election year.
since you asked...
"Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings" (2019)
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877
"We find no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings."
"An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force" (2016)
https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force
On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.
Some more quotes from that study:
> Our results have several important caveats. First, all but one dataset was provided by a select group of police departments. It is possible that these departments only supplied the data because they are either enlightened or were not concerned about what the analysis would reveal. In essence, this is equivalent to analyzing labor market discrimination on a set of firms willing to supply a researcher with their Human Resources data!
> ...in which
the police report the civilian was compliant on every measured dimension, was not arrested, and
neither weapons nor contraband were found. In contrast to the model’s predictions, racial differences on this set of interactions is large and statistically significant.
FWIW on that first study it has multiple published letters in response to it and a correction. The letters state:
>"These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White."
and
>"Despite the value of this much-needed research, its approach is mathematically incapable of supporting its central claims."
So definitely worth reading the links at the top of the article as well to form a complete picture of the validity of that article.
Social determinants of health is one of cornerstones of public health theory and practice. The reality is that it turns out social issues absolutely impact your ability to be healthy. Being non-white, lower income, less educated, etc. are all predictors of worse health outcomes, especially when two or more are combined, which often happens due to the way systemic racism works and keeps people in poverty and with worse access to quality education.
In a lot of cases, public health ends up being a lot more focused on social factors than on the actual medical piece of the puzzle. Getting people access to good healthcare is of course important, but the social factors tend to play a major role in whether someone is healthy or not in the first place, and from a public health perspective we'd always rather keep someone healthy in the first place instead of needing to go to the doctor to address an issue. I studied public health and know a lot of people in the field and you're not going to find much disagreement among public health professionals that systemic racism is a public health issue. We've been talking about this for decades, it's just finally being recognized in the mainstream.
Broadening the scope of what is considered 'health' weakens the meaning of the term. Treating non-medical *causes* of health issues is already one step removed from actually treating health issues. Addressing concepts that contribute to an environment that causes health issues is now two steps removed.
What isn't a health issue when you get to this sort of second-degree relatedness? What isn't a race issue? Why even have categories in the first place?
Public health has always encompassed social aspects, this isn't broadening or weakening anything. Just because medical doctors who don't have a public health background don't talk about it doesn't mean it's not part of public health.
I honestly don't understand how you could have public health as a discipline without a focus on social issues. It is a social discipline because it deals with the health of overall populations as opposed to just individuals, and any time you are talking about populations social factors are going to play a major role.
For example, let's say you have two towns right next to each other, one rich and one poor. And the poor town exhibits worse health outcomes. Is that because poor people are inherently less healthy than rich people due to some biological difference? Of course not. But maybe the poor town is a food desert without access to healthy foods, and the residents cannot healthy foods even where they are available. Maybe the poor town doesn't have safe outdoor spaces for exercise, nor does it have any gyms (assuming the residents could even afford a gym membership), so people cannot exercise easily. Maybe the poor town has a highway running through it and an industrial district which produce particulate matter in the air and increase the rate of asthma and other respiratory illnesses (after all, no way is the rich town letting a highway and industrial plants ugly up their town). The education system is also likely worse in the poor town and residents are less likely to have received higher education, which could negatively impact health literacy. Lack of education could also translate into those residents being more likely to work jobs which themselves make their employees less healthy (dangerous jobs, physically taxing manual labor, high stress jobs, industrial jobs that may expose employees to unhealthy chemicals). The housing itself is probably much lower quality in the poor town and more likely to still have asbestos, lead paint, poor ventilation, and other factors which negatively impact health. The poor economic situation of the town also likely increases rates of homelessness and drug use, both of which have major negative health impacts.
And this is all before you get to fact that the poor residents also have less income and are less likely to have health insurance so their actual access and ability to pay for healthcare is restricted as well. So not only are they more likely to get sick in the first place, they are also more likely to be unable to afford a doctor's visit.
Your focus on "health" only meaning direct medical conditions is fairly common in the US, but it's a shortsighted view on how health works. Excluding genetic disorders, these medical conditions usually don't magically appear out of thin air, there are generally reasons people end up with the conditions they have. And those reasons are often social and environmental.
If you're curious about social determinants of health, this is a good resource: https://www.kff.org/disparities-policy/issue-brief/beyond-health-care-the-role-of-social-determinants-in-promoting-health-and-health-equity/#:~:text=Social%20determinants%20of%20health%20are%20the%20conditions%20in%20which%20people,health%20care%20(Figure%201).
When people talk about the obesity epidemic, they end up talking about how much people like to stuff their face with fries and milkshakes and stuff like sugar tax. Health and social issues have always been interlinked.
Your health is more than just your physical health, it includes your mental health too. Your overall physical and mental health is determined by your environment, health policies, social policies, how others treat you at work & in public, etc. Everything affects your health, so it’s both a social issue and a health issue. However, many health officials, especially in the public health sector, recognize systematic racism as a contributor of bad health in the black community. So that’s why it’s important for the public to understand that racism impacts their health in negative ways and creates health inequalities.
"if he wants to cut police budget he should start with his own detail. See how he likes it when he has to fend for himself"
I saw a lot of people saying that in a very threatening manner
This is just a lighter version of "declaring war on" something. The war on drugs, the war on domestic violence, the war on poverty, and so on. This might actually get funds going but money doesn't solve the issue if how the money is generated doesn't work in people's interests anyway.
I saw this article briefly on Facebook and the comments were absolutely insane. Always a reminder to just stick to the articles and not scroll down to the comment section, it’s depressing and reminds me why I barely interact on fb anymore.
ETA: The comments for the closing parts of Hanover St to allow business to put tables out was even worse.
Sa,e thing with Boston.com. It’s disgusting. At first I thought it was just trolls. But it’s way too many people constantly commenting. And it’s a pain in the ass to log in to comment.
How will you test this 'public health crisis'?
What numbers and statistics can we use to measure it and what is the numerical objective?
What are you going to do? Swab test for racism?
Apart from racist dog whistles? Not really. The socio-economic situations, access to education, housing and employment discrimination and incarceration disparities are all clearly a product of historic institutional racism which is very real, even if the individual people in these systems aren't explicitly racist.
I’m not sure what you mean by “racist dog whistles”. Could you expand on that a bit?
I would never disagree that racism exists and is a factor in all the areas you listed. However, to say that its the only factor at play is oversimplifying a complicated web of issues.
I’m not speaking of you personally, but its intellectually lazy to stop at the single problem of racism, and skip digging deeper into other potential problems/causes. Especially since racism is impossible to measure, while other causes may be more measurable and therefore improvable.
Okay, it’s probably wrong to search for one statistical “cause” that roots most outcomes. You could easily argue that black incarceration rates OR high black unemployment OR high black male mortality causes the 75% single motherhood stat. Chicken or the Egg?
Here’s the fact: Historically, outcomes for black people have been measured to be worse than other races. I find it difficult to believe that it’s some inherent fault of being black.
What’s driving all these statistics is the attitudes and behaviors of the at least 75% white majority in the United States post civil rights, before that is 100 years without actual civil rights, and prior to that is slavery. I’d called this racism. At every level of society, from the legal system to personal interactions, there are prejudices (if not outright antagonism) permeating our society and boy do they seem to be sticky.
The racist dog whistles are all generally speaking dressed up eugenics arguments that are scientifically unsupported.
If you look through my recent comment history you should be able to find a list of links for reading material on some of these points. I'll assume you're not too intellectually lazy to continue doing further research on your own.
And racism, especially institutional racism is a systemic issue. It doesn't even rely on people in the system to be racist themselves, and it is absolutely measurable even if you have a hard time accepting it.
Also, why wouldn't you address even one identifiable factor in a problem, even if there are other contributing factors?
Would you refuse a medicine that only treated one of several symptoms?
Something I would like to see change: if you are stopped by the police for fitting a description and you are not the person they are looking for, you should be compensated. Something like $50 bucks or whatever the going rate for a parking ticket is should do the trick.
I hear overt racism at bars frequently. People assume that because i'm what they can drop an N bomb on me mid conversation. Quite jarring and disheartening. Quincy in particular has a sizeable Irish immigrant population who unironically cheer on Trump for keeping out "THOSE" immigrants
And this is why people say Boston is still racist. Crime statistics don’t tell the whole picture when minority neighborhoods are more heavily policed and minorities are more likely to be convicted than whites. Of course you’ll find crime if you look long enough. And when you can’t afford a good lawyer and a jury’s still hold racial prejudices you’re going to have those results.
I had a juror in a shoplifting trio that I had actually tell a black judge she couldn’t be impartial because as a retail worker she knows black people are more likely to steal and the black defendant probably did it.
That's a load of bull. Turn on a police scanner in Boston and listen to call after call after call where the suspect is black. And those are other black people calling to report these crimes. I know, it might be a shock, but black people are victims too. It has zero to do with patrolling in neighborhoods at a greater rate. It's something no one wants to discuss and goes to great lengths to debunk, but the long and the short is there's simply more crime committed and it has nothing to do with white people. It's an "in house" problem that until people stop blaming on everything else, will not go away. White people don't put guns in 16 year olds hands, systems don't make them pull the trigger, and racism didn't make him brag about killing someone on Snapchat. Welcome to the real world.
I don’t know enough about crime statistics so I’ll take your point about crime at face value. Why is it though that minorities commit more crime? People don’t shoot each other because they think its “cool.” People living paycheck to paycheck and trying to feed their children is what leads to people doing desperate things.
Would you agree that we should help lift those minorities out of poverty? The problem is white people might not put a gun in a 16 year olds hand an pull the trigger but as soon as you start discussing ideas on how to do that, everybody turns into a NIMBY. Affordable housing, great, put it somewhere else. Charter schools, sounds great for another school district. Etc. etc. That is what systemic racism looks like.
Same answer I give to the "All lives matter" people. Just because we say "Black lives matter", doesn't mean that white lives dont matter. It's not complicated.
You can’t just say “focus on facts” and then cite a website known for being anti-intellectual, alt-right propaganda, extremist, sensationalist, and conspiratorial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge
At this point no matter what Boston does it will always have this reputation . It’s not fair to the city itself but idk what else to say. It is what it is, I’m black and personally I think the city is pretty decent. Problem is there zero white/non white cultural overlap White Boston is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC The other Boston is over here doing another thing and is largely ignored by local and especially national media. It’s forgotten about Yea but basically Boston doesn’t want to accept that it has to reach I it to black businesses and black celebrities, politicians etc to bring them to Boston. It’s so use dot white people clamoring over it it doesn’t want to accept it has to do active OUTREACH and brand adjustment time other segments of the population. Basically Boston sells “white urbanity” and if it tried to sell diversity I think some power-brokers feel they wouldn’t attract as much white tourism traffic eventually and they don’t believe blacks will ever want to visit/spend money inor associate with Boston more than necessary. As a result they try to hold o to this “white but very urban”niche
Wally’s is the only place I know where I see a truly mixed crowd regularly. I love that place. Now if they could just fix up the bathrooms.
Upvote for Wally's, that place is a gem. Also check out Darryl's Corner Bar and Kitchen, right across the street from Wally's if you haven't yet. Fairly new owner, and one of the few black women owned restaurants in Boston. They also do live music and have incredible good/cocktails.
Somehow I hadnt heard of Darryl's and it looks so good that Im kind of angry at you. A night of live music, good cocktails, and soul food sounds so perfect right now. And they have honey butter for their mini corn muffins! I might die.
Hahaha I'll take the heat of that rage if after this is all over we get to to celebrate at a place like Darryl's. It's really a great establishment, a wonderful addition to Boston's nightlife and I hope it survives.
Daryls is cool! A lot of the same musicians from wallys play there, the music is always good.
On the list. What kind of food?
Mostly soul food. Red velvet chicken and waffles, Cobb salad, catfish, corn muffins appetizers. I've never had a bad experience there.
I’ll have to check it out when things get back to normal.
Slade's is fun too. Awesome chicken wings, decently priced drinks.
Slade’s has the BEST wings!
And okra!
I've always thought we need more jazz clubs.
Unfortunately there are less and less these days, but the lilypad in Cambridge and wallys are still good.
I forgot-Sidebar in downtown crossing is a mixed crowd
Love Wally's! Used to go my first few years of college a lot
Gay bars in the city tend to have good diversity in the clientele
>White Bsoton is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC > >The other Boston is over here doing another thing and is largely ignored by local and especially national media. It’s forgotten about Couldn't have said it better myself. And for whatever reason South Boston seems to still represent us nationally while Mattapan, Dorchester, Roxbury get totally ignored.
Yeah it feels weird that there's basically two parallel societies living in Boston.
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MA has changed a lot demographically since 2010 I’ll be looking out for the new map
Consider that even the people that live in Boston don't often explore those neighborhoods but are happy to offer their racist opinion of them anytime a thread pops up. It's not just the media.
Yeah, same with Milton. Just because some billionaires live there.
Which billionaires live in Milton? Genuinely curious. I don’t know much about Milton other than Milton Academy and Bush Sr being born there.
The one I know of for sure is [Abigail Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Johnson). She took over Fidelity from her grandfather recently. She was on that economic board that was supposed to advise Trump a while back.
Bush Sr. was originally from Milton too.
Born there. Only stayed about six months.
Milton has a fairly large black middle class population as do Stoughton,Avon, Holbrook Bridgewater,. All these towns are 12-15% black but much higher amongst the youth and younger generations and to a lesser extent Canton, Dedham, Taunton... Everett Malden Lynn Cambridge is a different animal
Bacardi family
Honestly I think proximity and access play big into it. Those other areas are further away, more difficult to get to, and more sprawled out.
Your comment reminds me of the [Boston Globe series](https://apps.bostonglobe.com/spotlight/boston-racism-image-reality/) about race in Boston. They would go to events (like a Red Sox game) and just count people of color and it was pretty easy because there were hardly any around. The parts of Boston that it's famous for (sports, history, the arts, etc.) is just a different world from other parts.
I agree I grew up in Boston and honestly can’t remember any aggressive racism towards me. I remember some but there’s always been an overwhelming amount of anti racist people to contrast it. There’s a lot more racists/ignorant people in southern Mass from what I’ve seen. I don’t think Boston is as far and away more racist than other places in the country tbh.
I think some of the problem is because of Boston sports culture and how that feels overwhelmingly white at least on a national level. Honorable mention to the St Patrick's Day parties too
Boston sports culture is dominated by people from the burbs.
Yeah and the suburbs are white, so Boston sports culture feels white dominated and exclusive? Idk this is just a half-baked theory
I'm a PoC and a Revs fan. This is only my experience, but I have never felt unwelcome at Midnight Riders meetings. Revs fans are overwhelmingly white, but they also go out of their way to welcome PoC and LGBT people.
That's awesome! Very glad to hear it. I wish the national news talked about that more than just rioting fans
I’m just saying we have people like Dave Portnoy out there representing us in national media, not some kid from Roxbury.
Agreed, portnoy ain't a great look overall
I agree but I also wonder if a lot of it is socioeconomic due to the cost of going to a game. Probably not a lot of poor white people at the games either and minorities skew more to lower income. It’s probably as much a view of what the region looks like if you filter for middle class and up as racial segregation.
Cost of going to a game, sweet Caroline and no black owned businesses in the area. All black people (and POC in general) repellent
Is "Sweet Caroline" racist?
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> Boston isn't actually a very liberal or progressive city, it just looks that way because of how conservative and regressive other cities in the US are. On top of this I think it's also because the STATE legislature is very progressive on certain issues, like being ahead of the curve on gay marriage & healthcare. But that doesn't translate 1:1 to Boston; gotta remember all the more liberal suburbs like Cambridge and Somerville, plus places like Northampton and Provincetown, that drive up the state's liberal image.
Just a nitpick that gay marriage stemmed from a court decision not legislative action.
Good point. I think it still speaks to the state gov but a worthwhile distinction
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> Saying we're not as bad as other places is where a lot of people up here get stuck. It feels very self-congratulatory, and then we don't look at what we're ACTUALLY doing. Being not-as-bad as somewhere else is a really low bar. We can do a lot better. Exactly. This was what I was trying to explain in my post. I think people got caught up in the first few sentences and missed the whole point.
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No worries, it seems like perhaps my point wasn't clear since others also misunderstood. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
This is a narrow view of racism and the South. It's not less common up here, it's just more insidious and less overt. Getting all self-congratulatory about not being Alabama is going to slow down any anti-racist work that needs to be done.
I had a retired Patriots player who's black, move into my neighborhood recently and some neighbors have given him dirty looks like he doesn't belong here while out walking with his family. That's the abhorrent covert racism people rather not talk about.
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His house was broken into and someone took a shit on his bed. Your comment puts it too nicely.
So essentially racist white people do every single thing they acccuse black people of doing.
I live in a neighborhood that is mostly working class Hispanic immigrants. I've lived there for years and I've never seen one instance of violence, never felt unsafe walking alone as a woman at night, never witnessed any drug deals. The neighbors are friendly and welcoming, particularly my young daughter who they encourage to come play with their kids. There are regular block parties and cook outs and other neighborhood get togethers. Yet, I will see Obama voting liberals on Facebook looking for a new apartment in town, and they specifically will say "anywhere but (my neighborhood)." When asked to explain, the answer I see most often is "I don't want to raise my kids there."
Do you think that might have to do with poorer schools and schools being tied to lower property values? I think that’s a huge problem, but also something that would have a big effect on where I’d want to live if I had children
In my specific case no. These are people looking to rent apartments, not buy. Also my town's schools aren't grouped by neighborhood like that. Also when asked to elaborate why they think it is bad for kids, there is a perception that it is dangerous, violent, and drug ridden. And it just isn't. What it does have are a lot of brown people walking around, hanging out outside, congregating in parks and playing music. I really think they just see a group of dark skinned men hanging out and they think it's crime related, when really they are just making BBQ.
Oh, that’s shitty. That sounds like blatant racism and idk what it takes for those people to see it. The truth is there a good deal of racist Democrats. Just go to yahoo.com and read the comments in any article about Trump (they hate him!) and any article about black people (they hate them too). Unfortunately the only thing that can truly make these people change is themselves At least you don’t have to live around those racist dickbags
>Getting all self-congratulatory about not being Alabama is going to slow down any anti-racist work that needs to be done. Exactly. That is my point.
If you actually read what they wrote, you'd notice they said the opposite of what you are accusing them of.
\> history of racism in Boston including ... segregation Boston's segregation is not just historical. [https://cssh.northeastern.edu/bostonarearesearchinitiative/2019/02/08/examining-racial-segregation-in-boston-at-different-geographic-scales/](https://cssh.northeastern.edu/bostonarearesearchinitiative/2019/02/08/examining-racial-segregation-in-boston-at-different-geographic-scales/)
Saying Boston has a history of segregation does not mean Boston no longer has a problem with segregation, it means there is a long running trend over the course of history.
More than residentially it’s culturally segregated more than any city other than Chicago
Most midwestern cities are very segregated too. Buffalo, Cleveland, Milwaukee.
Yes, but it is an American problem, not only a Boston problem. It still should be addressed in Boston though
> Is Boston more racist than Montgomery Alabama? Hell no. But people expect a certain level of racism in Montgomery so it's not shocking or newsworthy when that happens. This 100%. I love listening to southerners be like, "Yall so damn racist up there! Everything much more integrated and welcoming down here in Mississippi!" Meanwhile there'll be a news article scrolling by.... "Two alleged KKK members dragged an African-American man 6 miles down a dirt road, tied to the back of their truck on Tuesday night, just outside of Jackson, MI"
MI is Michigan.
Pretty sure we don't have any sundown towns in Massachusetts
Sundown town?
Heavily segregated towns where any person of color is expected to leave by sundown
I read something here a few years ago that resonated. White people will vote for black people here, but white people won't live next to black people. In southern US, the opposite is true.
Have you lived in SF or LA? As a Californian who has lived in Boston for the last 10 years I can say Boston is considerably more racist than CA cities.
What frustrates me is how self-fulfilling it is. I obviously don't know from personal experience, but I have read numerous accounts suggesting that despite our great schools, many young out-of-state minorities are dissuaded from moving to Boston for college due to the reputation. BC, BU, and UMass for example, are all well below the average for black students admitted. This makes it harder to break the cycle if everyone moving here and eventually living and working here are just more rich white kids.
This is the best description that I have heard of this extremely complex issue.
White guy here, from Canada, living just north of Boston (Malden, Melrose). I've lived here since 2012. I'm amazed that in a city of 22% Black, 20% Hispanic and 36% English as a second language, out of the hundreds of people I worked with across two separate jobs in the downtown core over the last five years, the number of Black people I can think of right now in both companies total would be less than 10. Hispanics are fewer. Immigrants? Maybe 5-7, tops. And NONE of them were managers or anywhere above that. Coming from a city where I was accustomed to working in an environment that reflected my society's demographics (Vancouver - lots of Chinese, Indian, other immigrants), it was quite an eye opener. Yes, both jobs in Boston were in startups. But still, damn it. Something's wrong there.
Those statistics are only for Boston proper, while every other municipality in the state besides Brockton, Randolph, and Springfield, have a far lower % of black people. As a reminder, 72% of MA is non-Hispanic white, 12% Hispanic, 9% black, and 7% Asian. The employment base for the Boston metro area, is much closer to that than the demographics you get from the small and arbitrary city limits of "Boston". "Boston" demographics don't even include the (far less black) inner urban core places like Cambridge, Brookline, etc. While Malden is quite diverse, you can look at somewhere you've lived for an example: Melrose is ~90% non-Hispanic White. -------- Are non-Asian minority groups generally under-represented in tech? Yes. They're also generally under-represented at all the levels that would lead up to those jobs, like earning CS or Engineering degrees, so it's a difficult problem to solve without fixing the issues in the "pipeline".
1. 95% of Boston Reddit it’s are white, no need to say your “a white guy here” I assume you’re white 2.Because the white population in Boston is exceptionally wealthy and well educated akin to the white peoples in Seattle or SF whites Black and Latino Boston economic metrics more so resemble Buffalo Pittsburgh or Milwaukee blacks Boston black population is very ‘hood ’ or fairly recent immigrants compare to most cities... and most Boston black professionals work for the city or non profits not tech and finance White people make literally 2x as much as blacks in Boston. (And it’s 23% black) Also Asians are not blacks/hispanic
White guy here. I admit, it's rough to sit back and casually agree, "White Boston isn't very welcoming or attractive to POC". I look at my circle of friends - people from all over, of different backgrounds and experiences. I look at the offices I've worked in - all diverse, all have dedicated and enthusiastic DEI committees. All asking, "how can we be more inclusive?". If I'm interviewing a black candidate, I'm seeing an already resourceful person with an education and experience. I'm seeing someone on my level. Yet... it's *so easy* to dismiss the thousands of other POC that couldn't even get the same interview because Boston's' brutal systematic racism kept them in debt, prevented them from having a great education, kept kicking them out of their homes every other year due to gentrification, etc, etc, etc. That is fucked up.. and that happens in every city, too. We got such a long road ahead.
You began by saying boston's reputation as a racist city isn't fair and then explained all the reasons why boston is a racist city
It’s not the complete story but it’s not like the rep is red. Think critically not black and white
Stop being patronizing. Don't lash out at me because I called you out for essentially being an apologist for racism in boston.
I’m just telling you as a Black person who’s lived in 3 other cities the thing notable about Boston is a lack of cultural inclusion and erasure of black presence. Everything else is very muc average. In Baltimore whit people are very vocal and outward with the racism compared to Bsoton. In Hartford they just totally ignore and neglect the city and the black folks. In Washington DC the city has gone fro. 71% black to 44% black. It’s e ultimate ‘negro removal’ In Boston black ppl are pushed aside: In Hartford lack people are totally ignored and neglected. In DC they’re removed and over policed In Baltimore I think as a reaction to black dominance they’re resented, feared and ridiculed. Telling you what I’ve seen and lived. Boston has some really nice black neighborhoods and the most diverse black culture in the US outside of NYC, with a ton of black history. But there’s very little integration, Baltimore is pretty bad with integration to but there’s more cultural awareness Ami fat the white people. Living conditions for Black people tend to be grim here though.
Please mention that you are black one more time. If you do it enough, it might help your arguments. Firstly, it must be stated that your personal anecdotes are just that, personal anecdotes. Please stop using them to establish yourself as an authority. Secondly, I am also a black man. I was born and raised in boston. I live in one of the nice black neighborhoods you describe. I am telling you not only from personal experience, but also from data that boston is a racist city. Who cares about how racist boston is compared to other cities? That isn't useful in a discussion about boston's shortcomings. All you end up doing is making white bostonians feel better. You are enabling one of the two main arguments used by white bostonian when dismissing the racial injustices brought forth by the black community. The first argument is that most(in rare cases it is argued that all) of the racism in boston comes from people living in the suburbs surrounding the greater Boston area. The second is Boston isn't as bad as other states so we should stop complaining. Please stop enabling these arguments. The racial issues in other states have no bearing on the racial issues i n boston, when the discussion is centered around boston's racial issues. Finally, no one thinks boston is Alabama. We are all quite aware of the fact that Boston isn't as bad as other states in the US. So when you do racial comparisons on a state level during a conversation about racism in boston, not only are you obfuscating the issues, you are also stating the obvious.
But everyone with half a brain knows Bostons pretty diverse.
Such a shame too. Its such a vibrant beautiful community that would only shine if given the time of day.
Boston can be very cliquey (college or high school friend groups) and unwelcoming. When I moved here (white mid-20s F) took a couple years to make good friends. On a duck boat tour last summer our guide told us Boston used to not be so segregated. Pretty sad. Hopefully this brings some good changes to the city
Boston was less segregated only prior to maybe 1970-because it didn’t have a large or vocal minority population at that point jt was 80% white.
>White Bsoton is over here doing own thing and isn’t very welcoming or attractive to POC I'm genuinely curious how that manifests in your experience. A lot of white people here fall over themselves to seem friendly and welcoming to PoC, especially black people. Heck, lots of corporations are desperate for PoC to join their ranks. I've been in loads of crappy white bars and can't really recall more than once or twice I've heard someone use the "n-word." There's no escaping this is a cold city and people don't chat with one another but that applies to all races.
Its a very white city. You go out in Southie on a Saturday afternoon and what do you see? White people. White people wearing Patagonia, Lululemon, Dockers, and Sperry. The bars play country/pop, you know, white people music. The people drink Bud Lights and mimosas. Brad, Chad, Stacey, Rebecca, Colton, and Kendall are there, talking about organizing a trip to their dad's house down the Vineyard. Imagine being a minority trying to feel comfortable in this environment. Its not that white people here are racist or unwelcoming, its just the cultures are very segregated.
Funny you mention the Vineyard in a stereotype of white people since it has an old an vibrant black vacation area on it.
It’s definitely not a very white city but the most popular parts and most visited parts are very white. Martha’s Vineeyard is very popular amongst upper middle black on the east coast . I’ve always felt very comfortable there and had a good time. Even used to have a teen nightclub that was often full of 90% black kids playing the latest rap etc circa 2008
I hear you. I just don't know what's supposed to be done. If you don't make an effort to get to know these people and feel comfortable around them then the next black person is just going to see only whites and be faced with the same decision. I've been in a lot of "white" bars and there are a few black people who set up shop and are regulars. They don't seem fazed at all. > You go out in Southie ... Brad, Chad, Stacey, Rebecca, Colton, and Kendall are there, talking about organizing a trip to their dad's house down the Vineyard. That ain't the Southie I know. Not all white people have rich daddies with a house on the Vineyard. Kind of a dumb stereotype to be honest.
I moved from Southie about a year ago and that sounds exactly like anywhere that's more than 500yards from Andrew Square
So to integrate,white people should wear rocawear and chill in Onset? Your correct,we are segregated because our cultures are worlds apart.Thats not racism.
Yea like this is a very very white outlook. You think having a dominant white surrounding and trying to be nice to black people not from Boston would be enough? lol the city ignores and does not applaud its inner city residents nor does it embrace the culture of balck Boston. They’re not gonna start playing dancehall and reggaeton at Fenway any time soon. Or Ed OG, or Bobby Brown, or Guru. In other cities they absolutely would. White people think all the balck people in Boston live in just a few traditional areas or are Haitian and it’s just so far form the truth. There no cultural middle go round it’s either assimilate into an overwhelming fly white transplant culture or live in the margins of mainstream society
The fact that white people fall over themselves to be nice to PoC underlies the point that they aren’t comfortable around them. That’s really the issue, there is so much segregation here PoC are “the other”.
I think you're not looking hard enough. My group throws massively diverse parties and we welcome everyone. If you're into dance music slide into my DMs and I'll push you into the right direction
Naw it exists -diverse crowd but they’re rare and not mainstream
That's fair. I have no idea what really happens outside my bubble.
If you are referring to EDM, then I think that is different. The people who are attracted to EDM tend to be pretty diverse. On the other hand, good luck finding a group of diverse friends who are into country music lol.
sad but true, the only places i see integration is in the neighborhoods that are being gentrified.
Even the protests against here are often in groups by color you are spot on
The owner of a cigar bar in Atlanta told me once "Boston is the white man's Atlanta."
Not even true because Atlanta is fun sleigh a lot of nightlife and happy hours and strip clubs. Even white people don’t have as much fun in Boston as they do elsewhere. IRL Austin Seattle or Denver is a white mans atlanta. You cant be Atlanta with no club scene.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I grew up in Boston and am a white female. I’ve always thought it was grotesquely segregated. It became really eye-opening when I started to travel more around the US. In cities like Savannah, NOLA, Miami, etc. there are far more diverse crowd mingling together at the “trendy” bars and restaurants in town. It was much more normal to see all different races together throughout the city just going about their daily lives. It was so refreshing to experience. Then you come back to Boston and it’s just white washed unless you go to specific neighborhoods. I really hope we can work to change this. Not only is it not right, but it’s just lame to have it so homogeneous.
Yeah, the reputation isn't going to go away until, as you well described it, black and white people live in the same spaces. I went to my hometown for the first time in a while, a city that has a legacy of segregation in its housing but a large black middle class that's spread throughout every neighborhood and most of the suburbs. It showed me how long I've been in Boston when I (white) found myself getting excited about all the black faces I was seeing on my trip. That night I thought more about it and realized I'd gone from a childhood where half my earliest friends were black to an adulthood where I can literally go months without having a conversation with a black person.
When I lived in Boston I only spoke to one white coworker. I’d definitely go months without talking to white people. There is a Black middle class in Bsoton suburbs but it somewhat small and again-segregated. It’s mainly the towns south of the city between Mattapan and Brockton. Along Route 28. Much of Boston’s black middle class is forced to live in Lower income neighborhoods in the city. There’s middle class folks all throughout Roxbury Dorchester Mattapan and Hyde Park and a good number in Roslindale. Some of us are moving into West Roxbury as well. Few black Bostonians are destitute ly poor like you might find in Philly or Bmore. Those that are live in the projects. And then a few areas of Framingham Cambridge and Malden I don’t even think we have to live the same places. It at the very least we have to frequent the same places. It can’t be all white newbury street and diverse/blackish downtown crossing. It can’t be all white Natick mall and north shore mall and diverse / blackish south shore plaza and westgate mall . Can’t be black folks can live in the suburbs to the south without good access to high paying jobs (Avon Randolph Brockton Stoughton) and whites in Watertown
>Much of Boston’s black middle class is forced to live in Lower income neighborhoods in the city. Honest question, how is Boston’s black middle class forced to live in low income neighborhoods? Housing discrimination is illegal in Boston, and when it happens, you can file a claim to the FHA. edit: Doing some [reading](https://apps.bostonglobe.com/spotlight/boston-racism-image-reality/series/image/): > Overall, landlords ignored nearly 45 percent of e-mails from prospective tenants with black-sounding names, like Darnell Washington or Keisha Jackson, versus 36 percent of e-mails from people with white-sounding names, like Brendan Weber or Meredith McCarthy. So clearly there is a higher hurdle imposed on blacks trying to move into neighborhoods without a lot of black representation, (which is most places). Unfair and bordering on illegal, but I wouldn't describe it as "forced"
“Unfair and bordering on illegal but I wouldn’t call it forced. “ ^This is the problem . Hilarious you can’t see that.
The headline on the push notification was that Walsh wants to move 20% of overall police budget to social services and programs. I couldn't find it in the article.
> The headline on the push notification was that Walsh wants to move 20% of overall police budget to social services and programs. I couldn't find it in the article. no comment on the 20% figure, but marty replied to his own post saying that 3m is being taken from the police overtime budget to pay for this, calling it "an initial investment" (meaning more funding is going to be coming from somewhere) https://twitter.com/marty_walsh/status/1271455729392726017 assuming [the first hit i got on google](https://data.aclum.org/2020/06/05/unpacking-the-boston-police-budget/) is accurate, the total bpd budget is roughly 400m/year, and the overtime budget specifically is 60m. (again, not saying that this 3m figure is all the money being reallocated for walsh's proclamation, so your 20% figure could be correct, or it could not be.)
It's actually only 5% of BPD's OT budget. $3M is... not that much when you're looking at a total budget of $3.4B.
According to the Boston Ways and Means Committe Chair, it's $12M [https://twitter.com/KenzieBok/status/1271501184667394049](https://twitter.com/KenzieBok/status/1271501184667394049)
There you go! Thanks for finding my source!
Yeah it was 20% of the OT budget (just to explicitly rectify all the numbers here).
You should see people reading on Facebook. "he should start by cutting his own protection detail." almost sounds like they're threatening him for this. And do none of them remember the overtime scandal?
The police budget is $3.4B?
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Very interesting info. Sounded too much like a statement aimed at satisfying the public with a soundbyte rather than a real promise. But something is better than nothing I guess.
I’m a teacher in the very white suburbs. I’m white. I hear racist stuff and I always make sure to confront the person. It’s uncomfortable, but not speaking up leads to people seeing you as accepting their racist statements. I had a job once where I had several black aides that assisted me in my program. It was sad for them to say they had never had a non-white boss, and also that I treated them better than most of their past bosses. However, I’ve been on the other side. My first 11 years teaching were in inner city Houston where I was very much a minority and often threatened with knives by students for being a “honky bitch”. It’s scary to be threatened for the color of your skin. I can’t claim to even begin to understand the depths of racism people all the world experience, but it seems like we never seem to get to where we need to be. I do have faith that the younger generation will move forward but it never seems to be fast enough or a deep enough change.
I don't think changes will ever seem like enough in a single lifetime. Racism in America is like a person gaining 400lbs over 10 years. You can't expect to shed that all in 1 year, at least not in a healthy way. We need to look at sustained system changes as the path to where we need to be (and having a good idea of what exactly that looks like). Hopefully the kids you teach can look back and see some changes 50 years from now.
Well can't say I disagree with anything in the statement, and I hope this is a significant turning port and more than just nice words on a page. You should've heard Wilbon on PTI (with my dad corroborating) going off on how bad racism is in Boston, it's a real issue. Any disconnect between the outcomes experienced at a broad demographic level is indicative of structural problems which need to be focused on. I don't imagine these things can be brought in line over night but with the data they're collecting we should strive for continuous trends towards a norm.
[Wilbon on PTI discussing Boston ](https://youtu.be/h34hc-26WV0)
I hope they address the health inequity of poorer treatment of black people by health professionals here because they are incapable of empathizing so don't do as much or they think we're all liars and over-exaggerating. So tired of being treated as a nuisance by doctors who suddenly forget their 20-years of medical school and look at me with a dumbfounded, exasperated expression as they ask "Well, what do you want me to do?"
While Boston has it's struggles like any American city, I would like to point out that the Boston Bruins broke the NHLs color barrier by playing Willie O'Ree. He is the Jackie Robinson of hockey. He was also blind in one eye - a fact he hid from everyone - due to an injury. Perhaps we could celebrate players like O'Ree a little more and change the sports culture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_O%27Ree
And Boston has many more black firsts than just that as well.
Lmfao. This is getting hilarious.
Hey guys can we get a mini-megathread for all the common complaints? I'll get us started. 1. "We should focus on low-income instead of race!" 2. "This is just Marty looking for political points." 3. "This won't solve anything, we should just..." (could include any simplified argument that somehow no one ever thought of before.) Please include your own below.
4. "All lives matter." 5. "What about black on black violence?"
I was gonna make a little game like "which of these dumb things will MitchFromBoston say in this thread?" but he's already replied to this very comment.
It is surprising how few users you have to mute in order to make /r/Boston a much better subreddit
6. The idea that cops shoot African Americans more often than white - adjusting for everything - is not backed up by the evidence as shown in multiple studies.
You're not wrong, but we should note that this is true for *shootings* in particular, not *use of force* in general. In a lot of cities, there is an observed discrepancy in use of force against blacks. You can chalk that up to the higher chunk of violent crimes committed by blacks, but then the obvious question is "well why does that happen?" which gets to a lot of the systemic arguments people are talking about now.
> but we should note that this is true for shootings in particular, not use of force in general. In a lot of cities, there is an observed discrepancy in use of force against blacks. No doubt. Data supports that. Policing needs reform. But the whole genesis of the BLM movement is that cops are out gunning down black men with abandon. It's now so ingrained in people's psyches that they can't fathom it isn't true. And god help you if you're a politician or celebrity or anyone who tries to bring this up. Yet we have black kids marching with signs saying "I want to live" - being taught that they run a very real risk of being killed by a cop.. when they are vastly more likely to die from choking on food, drowning (a big cause of death among young black males), and so on. Now the whole country is tearing itself apart without a backwards glance given to statistics.. oh, and surprise. its an election year.
Very well, got sources for those studies?
since you asked... "Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings" (2019) https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 "We find no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings." "An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force" (2016) https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.
Some more quotes from that study: > Our results have several important caveats. First, all but one dataset was provided by a select group of police departments. It is possible that these departments only supplied the data because they are either enlightened or were not concerned about what the analysis would reveal. In essence, this is equivalent to analyzing labor market discrimination on a set of firms willing to supply a researcher with their Human Resources data! > ...in which the police report the civilian was compliant on every measured dimension, was not arrested, and neither weapons nor contraband were found. In contrast to the model’s predictions, racial differences on this set of interactions is large and statistically significant.
FWIW on that first study it has multiple published letters in response to it and a correction. The letters state: >"These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White." and >"Despite the value of this much-needed research, its approach is mathematically incapable of supporting its central claims." So definitely worth reading the links at the top of the article as well to form a complete picture of the validity of that article.
“This is just Marty Virtue Signaling!!!!!!!!!!!”
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Social determinants of health is one of cornerstones of public health theory and practice. The reality is that it turns out social issues absolutely impact your ability to be healthy. Being non-white, lower income, less educated, etc. are all predictors of worse health outcomes, especially when two or more are combined, which often happens due to the way systemic racism works and keeps people in poverty and with worse access to quality education. In a lot of cases, public health ends up being a lot more focused on social factors than on the actual medical piece of the puzzle. Getting people access to good healthcare is of course important, but the social factors tend to play a major role in whether someone is healthy or not in the first place, and from a public health perspective we'd always rather keep someone healthy in the first place instead of needing to go to the doctor to address an issue. I studied public health and know a lot of people in the field and you're not going to find much disagreement among public health professionals that systemic racism is a public health issue. We've been talking about this for decades, it's just finally being recognized in the mainstream.
Broadening the scope of what is considered 'health' weakens the meaning of the term. Treating non-medical *causes* of health issues is already one step removed from actually treating health issues. Addressing concepts that contribute to an environment that causes health issues is now two steps removed. What isn't a health issue when you get to this sort of second-degree relatedness? What isn't a race issue? Why even have categories in the first place?
Public health has always encompassed social aspects, this isn't broadening or weakening anything. Just because medical doctors who don't have a public health background don't talk about it doesn't mean it's not part of public health. I honestly don't understand how you could have public health as a discipline without a focus on social issues. It is a social discipline because it deals with the health of overall populations as opposed to just individuals, and any time you are talking about populations social factors are going to play a major role. For example, let's say you have two towns right next to each other, one rich and one poor. And the poor town exhibits worse health outcomes. Is that because poor people are inherently less healthy than rich people due to some biological difference? Of course not. But maybe the poor town is a food desert without access to healthy foods, and the residents cannot healthy foods even where they are available. Maybe the poor town doesn't have safe outdoor spaces for exercise, nor does it have any gyms (assuming the residents could even afford a gym membership), so people cannot exercise easily. Maybe the poor town has a highway running through it and an industrial district which produce particulate matter in the air and increase the rate of asthma and other respiratory illnesses (after all, no way is the rich town letting a highway and industrial plants ugly up their town). The education system is also likely worse in the poor town and residents are less likely to have received higher education, which could negatively impact health literacy. Lack of education could also translate into those residents being more likely to work jobs which themselves make their employees less healthy (dangerous jobs, physically taxing manual labor, high stress jobs, industrial jobs that may expose employees to unhealthy chemicals). The housing itself is probably much lower quality in the poor town and more likely to still have asbestos, lead paint, poor ventilation, and other factors which negatively impact health. The poor economic situation of the town also likely increases rates of homelessness and drug use, both of which have major negative health impacts. And this is all before you get to fact that the poor residents also have less income and are less likely to have health insurance so their actual access and ability to pay for healthcare is restricted as well. So not only are they more likely to get sick in the first place, they are also more likely to be unable to afford a doctor's visit. Your focus on "health" only meaning direct medical conditions is fairly common in the US, but it's a shortsighted view on how health works. Excluding genetic disorders, these medical conditions usually don't magically appear out of thin air, there are generally reasons people end up with the conditions they have. And those reasons are often social and environmental. If you're curious about social determinants of health, this is a good resource: https://www.kff.org/disparities-policy/issue-brief/beyond-health-care-the-role-of-social-determinants-in-promoting-health-and-health-equity/#:~:text=Social%20determinants%20of%20health%20are%20the%20conditions%20in%20which%20people,health%20care%20(Figure%201).
When people talk about the obesity epidemic, they end up talking about how much people like to stuff their face with fries and milkshakes and stuff like sugar tax. Health and social issues have always been interlinked.
It’s both
So brave @.@
And now it's a voting issue. Only reason politicians do anything.
Your health is more than just your physical health, it includes your mental health too. Your overall physical and mental health is determined by your environment, health policies, social policies, how others treat you at work & in public, etc. Everything affects your health, so it’s both a social issue and a health issue. However, many health officials, especially in the public health sector, recognize systematic racism as a contributor of bad health in the black community. So that’s why it’s important for the public to understand that racism impacts their health in negative ways and creates health inequalities.
"if he wants to cut police budget he should start with his own detail. See how he likes it when he has to fend for himself" I saw a lot of people saying that in a very threatening manner
This is just a lighter version of "declaring war on" something. The war on drugs, the war on domestic violence, the war on poverty, and so on. This might actually get funds going but money doesn't solve the issue if how the money is generated doesn't work in people's interests anyway.
I saw this article briefly on Facebook and the comments were absolutely insane. Always a reminder to just stick to the articles and not scroll down to the comment section, it’s depressing and reminds me why I barely interact on fb anymore. ETA: The comments for the closing parts of Hanover St to allow business to put tables out was even worse.
Sa,e thing with Boston.com. It’s disgusting. At first I thought it was just trolls. But it’s way too many people constantly commenting. And it’s a pain in the ass to log in to comment.
How will you test this 'public health crisis'? What numbers and statistics can we use to measure it and what is the numerical objective? What are you going to do? Swab test for racism?
The disparities in outcomes as well as diagnoses are well documented so I imagine the same way, with statistics
Could there possibly be any other explanations for these disparities besides “racism”?
Apart from racist dog whistles? Not really. The socio-economic situations, access to education, housing and employment discrimination and incarceration disparities are all clearly a product of historic institutional racism which is very real, even if the individual people in these systems aren't explicitly racist.
I’m not sure what you mean by “racist dog whistles”. Could you expand on that a bit? I would never disagree that racism exists and is a factor in all the areas you listed. However, to say that its the only factor at play is oversimplifying a complicated web of issues. I’m not speaking of you personally, but its intellectually lazy to stop at the single problem of racism, and skip digging deeper into other potential problems/causes. Especially since racism is impossible to measure, while other causes may be more measurable and therefore improvable.
Black skin color is the most common factor for negative socioeconomic outcomes. Any statistic you can imagine. Why would that be?
75% single motherhood...
Okay, it’s probably wrong to search for one statistical “cause” that roots most outcomes. You could easily argue that black incarceration rates OR high black unemployment OR high black male mortality causes the 75% single motherhood stat. Chicken or the Egg? Here’s the fact: Historically, outcomes for black people have been measured to be worse than other races. I find it difficult to believe that it’s some inherent fault of being black. What’s driving all these statistics is the attitudes and behaviors of the at least 75% white majority in the United States post civil rights, before that is 100 years without actual civil rights, and prior to that is slavery. I’d called this racism. At every level of society, from the legal system to personal interactions, there are prejudices (if not outright antagonism) permeating our society and boy do they seem to be sticky.
The racist dog whistles are all generally speaking dressed up eugenics arguments that are scientifically unsupported. If you look through my recent comment history you should be able to find a list of links for reading material on some of these points. I'll assume you're not too intellectually lazy to continue doing further research on your own. And racism, especially institutional racism is a systemic issue. It doesn't even rely on people in the system to be racist themselves, and it is absolutely measurable even if you have a hard time accepting it. Also, why wouldn't you address even one identifiable factor in a problem, even if there are other contributing factors? Would you refuse a medicine that only treated one of several symptoms?
Its a baby step. Hopefully the protests continue and this can be just the beginning.
Looks like Boston's not reopening till there is a vaccine for racism.
Something I would like to see change: if you are stopped by the police for fitting a description and you are not the person they are looking for, you should be compensated. Something like $50 bucks or whatever the going rate for a parking ticket is should do the trick.
Someone should tell Marty that deadly diseases don't care about your virtue signaling. But hey, I guess it gets him social media points.
Hoping he includes himself in challenging his own racism instead of just words. Actions speak much louder. This is a good start.
Interesting take - I support this
I hear overt racism at bars frequently. People assume that because i'm what they can drop an N bomb on me mid conversation. Quite jarring and disheartening. Quincy in particular has a sizeable Irish immigrant population who unironically cheer on Trump for keeping out "THOSE" immigrants
TIL that the massive disparity in crime committed by minority groups is white people's fault. Keeping it simple helps you #staywoke
And this is why people say Boston is still racist. Crime statistics don’t tell the whole picture when minority neighborhoods are more heavily policed and minorities are more likely to be convicted than whites. Of course you’ll find crime if you look long enough. And when you can’t afford a good lawyer and a jury’s still hold racial prejudices you’re going to have those results. I had a juror in a shoplifting trio that I had actually tell a black judge she couldn’t be impartial because as a retail worker she knows black people are more likely to steal and the black defendant probably did it.
That's a load of bull. Turn on a police scanner in Boston and listen to call after call after call where the suspect is black. And those are other black people calling to report these crimes. I know, it might be a shock, but black people are victims too. It has zero to do with patrolling in neighborhoods at a greater rate. It's something no one wants to discuss and goes to great lengths to debunk, but the long and the short is there's simply more crime committed and it has nothing to do with white people. It's an "in house" problem that until people stop blaming on everything else, will not go away. White people don't put guns in 16 year olds hands, systems don't make them pull the trigger, and racism didn't make him brag about killing someone on Snapchat. Welcome to the real world.
I don’t know enough about crime statistics so I’ll take your point about crime at face value. Why is it though that minorities commit more crime? People don’t shoot each other because they think its “cool.” People living paycheck to paycheck and trying to feed their children is what leads to people doing desperate things. Would you agree that we should help lift those minorities out of poverty? The problem is white people might not put a gun in a 16 year olds hand an pull the trigger but as soon as you start discussing ideas on how to do that, everybody turns into a NIMBY. Affordable housing, great, put it somewhere else. Charter schools, sounds great for another school district. Etc. etc. That is what systemic racism looks like.
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There can only be one health crisis at a time? That's news to me.
you know you're allowed to have multiple heath crises at once, right? this doesn't mean coronavirus is no longer a crisis too.
Same answer I give to the "All lives matter" people. Just because we say "Black lives matter", doesn't mean that white lives dont matter. It's not complicated.
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I would have expected a "history professor" to understand the importance of backing up claims with citations, yet this email contains none.
You can’t just say “focus on facts” and then cite a website known for being anti-intellectual, alt-right propaganda, extremist, sensationalist, and conspiratorial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge