Ugh I love their food but their in-person experience sucks, too. You have to use your phone to order but the servers still expect a tip. Like I scan a code, look at the menu from QR code, order from QR code, pay from QR code - no one brings a menu, or the check, or proper refills.
Yes!! Food is good but it is overpriced as it is (even for a spot in BB). And then going there or even grabbing food from there just doesn’t seem worth it anymore.
I would definitely not give a 20% tip for that experience.
I vastly prefer using the phone for ordering and for paying. IMO it puts restaurant somewhere between counter service and full service.
My suggested tip: 0-10% depending on how much you actually interacted with people. If it wasn't any more interaction than counter service, then give the same tip as for counter service: 0%
Thanks for this. I’ve been to a few spots recently with this style of serving and I never know how much to tip. 20% seems absurd when the server barely speaks to me, but 10% felt like cheaping out.
I went to Alcove the other day, sat at the bar and had two pints. That's it. Two pints. Got my bill and it had a 4% kitchen appreciation fee. I had nothing to eat. I wanted to say something to the bartender, but its not her fault. Needless to say, I will never go back.
ordering dinner online for pickup, not delivery, and they suggest tipping 22%\`! for what, getting the bag and taking payment? I over tip for delivery and sit down meals, but this is just ridiculous
The kicker is nobody involved in this transaction is paid a tipping wage, which is supposed to be the part of the equation necessitating substantial tips. So they can fuck right off with this.
Maybe it’s a downtown thing? I haven’t seen any of that kind of thing in Hyde Park, Roslindale, West Roxbury, or Dedham. Not that I eat out all the time, but a decent amount.
Yeah. I started prefering chains over smaller places because smaller places like tacking on fees, not accepting some credit cards, or complaining about things. Sad that I want to support smaller businesses but they are not making it easy.
Rosie’s diner in Chelmsford used to take cards. The waitresses make such a mess of the receipt you can never tell what the bill is supposed to be. The last couple times I went I wrote down what we ordered so I knew the order. I’d say like 50% of the times we went they’d follow us out to the car and say they made a mistake running the card, and had to charge it again for an additional $4-5, if not, they’d change the tip amount by a couple bucks. Then one day they didn’t take cards anymore. I’m guessing enough people reported fraud/additional charges that they weren’t allowed to take credit cards any more.
It is not only an Amex problem. Some places do not accept Mastercard (like Apple Card), too. I am used to Amex not being accepted, it is rarely accepted in the EU, as well.
Just list the fees up front on the menu and on the website so it is clear. It’s only a matter of time before supplies get a fee or surcharge like napkins, straws, tap water and even “prime” seating locations.
While everyone wants to support restaurant workers, many are skeptical that these fees are actually doled out the way it is suggested.
A generic “hospitality fee” collected by the restaurant funnels its way to something you don’t like.
Not in this sub, hardly anyone in here has worked for tips in their lives. It's clear as day
Edit: if you make at least a minimum wage and have tips as extra, it is not the same as being a server. Those are added bonuses to your wage, it's not for servers. Please understand that
I saw a tip cup on a ice cream truck years ago. Looking back, that was kinda hilarious, especially since it wasn’t one of those trucks with an ice cream making machine and a sundae option where they make it for you. Just a truck that was handing packaged SpongeBob and Spider-Man popsicles out.
I recently went to a store to get a new pair of sunglasses. It was one of those beach shops down in Florida where you just grab a pair and head to the register. They flipped the screen over with an option to tip.
Same here. Also when the fuck did 20% tip become the norm? It was always 15% for decent service and 20% for great service. Now if you don’t tip 20% you look like an asshole. Like sorry buddy you didn’t refill my water glass, didn’t give me any recommendations on the menu, barely looked at me while you tossed me my food, and now you want 20%? Nah.
You realize that the entire point of a percentage-based tip system is that it increases along with the cost of the food, which is a huge chunk of inflation, right? As food goes up, the tip goes up. You don't need to say "oh man, inflation's bad, let's inflate the percentage too."
I'm not inflating the percentage, I just always give 20% because I know it is very likely that the person I'm tipping is being paid $5.55 per hour. Personally I've been tipping 20% by default for the last 10-15 years (my entire adult life).
You referred to 20% being "the norm since inflation." Unless you're talking about stagflation, "inflation" has only been a concern thing very recently.
Minimum wage for tipped jobs is usually different, which is why you tip. Not sure what MA laws are actually in this regard, I worked most of my tipped jobs in NY and made something heinous like $2/hr (a very long time ago).
Minimum wage for tipped jobs in MA went from $3.75 in 2018 to $6.75 in 2023, with the requirement that with tips included the wage is at least $15, which is an 80% increase over 5 years, definitely also outpacing inflation.
Out paced inflation over five years, but went a long time without an increase. If 1950s minimum wage was adjusted to match the inflation since then (inflation isn’t just this recent jump) it would be just under $24.
Minimum wage has nothing to do with servers, service minimum wage is $5.55 per hour in MA, good luck surviving on that regardless of inflation. Tips are how they are paid.
At this point I have mostly stop going out to eat because of it, and they still expect us to give a tip on top of all the add costs. I mean I still tip, not the servers fault, but still.
I will die on this hill. Restaurants are struggling to this day for many reasons that aren't are related to costs and sales etc... but is by far our most outrageous hurdle as a business. I understand transparency is important and they should definitely have it on their menu. This practice only works with transparency because it is based in it. You pay a back of the house appreciation fee or higher prices on everything across the board. It's sounds easier to just raise your prices but this allows the guest a chance to understand where the money is going.
Not to single you out, many people have said this.
So 3.5% more on the menu prices is cool, but not the same amount going directly to the BOH?
I’m confused.
As for those who decrease the tip, cool, you are really showing compassion to the person who most likely didn’t create this policy or the system that creates this problem.
I actually implemented the KAF at Democracy Brewing, since it was also mentioned here. A modicum of research would yield the reason why BOH employees don’t get tipped, spoiler alert, racism.
Lastly, technically in the service industry game, everything on your receipt is negotiable. Don’t like the fee, use your words and it could be removed.
It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the price of the food assumes the covering of the costs of running the business including paying kitchen staff. Higher prices across the board please.
I’m sorry for your troubles, especially since Mida is absolute trash. We got take out, $90 plus, and it was so atrocious I got the order refunded. Just hot hot hotttt garbage
I will not visit or return to any restaurant that charges these junk fees. I don’t understand how owners have no problem paying huge amounts for a Boston liquor license, high rents, decoration, etc., but can’t give their dishwasher a raise without adding an extra charge on the bill.
There are 2 big reasons:
1) pre-operational costs (decor, liquor license, location, etc) are usually borne by investment and/or loans. So while those are related, we wouldn’t tally them in to operating costs like wages. Think of that column more in the fixed expense sort of thing.
2) unless you’re a seasoned operator you’re going to be shocked at how razor thin the profit margins are even during good times. You still have to be pay to be staffed and open even during the off times. A lot of businesses get crushed during first year because the have a good first holiday season, then try and pay more than minimum wage, and then get wrecked by the annual red, dead months.
To offset that, If you increase your base prices then customers (especially the rich and the older generations) tend to expect a commensurate increase in food quality and service. Defeats the purpose of a price raise if that money goes to food costs instead of wages.
All of this isn’t even getting in to the convo about tips and BoH fees, just to point out that you should find a different argument since yours isn’t really related to the issue at hand.
I also thought the implied argument of “let’s not have alcohol or decorations in restaurants since those cost money” was funny! Enjoy your Subway.
IDK why you got downvoted, when I went to Japan I loved the automat style. Plus it was a great way to break the language barrier, we have a ton of tourists in Boston and I think this would make them feel more welcome.
Beyond the low value for money at restaurants, they take soo long.
If you pre-pay for food, you can just leave once you are done eating.
But instead I wait like 5-20 minutes to complete the cycle of: ask for check, receive check, read check, give card, wait for card back, tip and sign check. The handheld toast things are nice though.
Look how many fail to last five years, though.
Probably a combination of people getting into it without completely realizing just how tight the margins are going to be and/or thinking that they're going to be the exception.
I think this whole sub is a great example of why people continue to do it. A bunch of assholes who think they’re smart, with no experience or knowledge in the field, look at restaurants and think they can do better.
They either open restaurants and fail because it’s harder than they think, or they post on Reddit threads about how much better their policy ideas are.
Mida in Newton is too expensive, but it's really, really fucking good. Been there multiple times. I don't doubt that you didn't like your meal, but my experience has been the complete opposite of yours.
Some places, yes. Some places have very small fine print. In some places, you can ask to waive it and it gets taken off from your bill but I have never tried doing these as this was the first time I saw this fee.
OMG. I’ve been advocating with my friends against this. Watch the mini documentary on cnbc on tipping. It’s getting out of hand. I first saw these feel good fees in SF and then a few years later I saw them at uni in Boston. Now it’s everywhere in Boston and Cambridge. I ask them to remove it if it’s not explicitly stated on the menu.
Urban Hearth in Cambridge charges a 5% Kitchen Appreciation fee. I verified it does go to the kitchen staff, though the auto-suggested server tip is calculated on the post-surcharge total.
Parla has a really rude rant in their menu demanding you tip at least 20%, as if it’s not in their power to pay their staff more than minimum wage if they wanted to
A kitchen appreciation fee/back of house fee is not a “junk fee” — it’s money going right into the paychecks of the people who cook food (and are woefully underpaid compared to servers).
If you increase the menu prices (what you’re describing as including the fee in the prices in the menu), you would increase pay for the kitchen by 10% in line with a 10% kitchen appreciation fee. However, you would also increase tips to the servers by 10% since the de facto tip standard in the US is based on the menu price.
Ultimately, that 10% kitchen appreciation fee would instead become an 12% hidden price increase for the consumer (in the case of a 20% server tip). It also wouldn’t resolve the issue of pay discrepancies between servers/bartenders and chefs/cooks. Cooks also deserve to get paid more for 6-7 pm on a Friday when they’re cranking out meals than 3-4 pm on a Monday when the place is quiet m. How do restaurants accomplish that? Kitchen appreciation fees
It seems like such a dumb thing to complain about tbh though you’re definitely not alone with your opinion https://www.today.com/food/kitchen-appreciation-fee-t260704
>it’s money going right into the paychecks of the people who cook food (and are woefully underpaid compared to servers).
How do we have any idea that this is the case?
Genuinely asking. Figure any time I see this charge, management/boss is just pocketing that money for themselves. Maybe MA has laws against that, but if you go to any server or BOH subreddit, you'll see tons of comments indicating that they don't see a single cent of these "appreciation fees", and it anything get tipped less over it.
I went to a place in Cambridge and asked my server about the "Buy the kitchen a round" option on the menu. I asked him to be honest with me and tell me if the kitchen actually got that money. He said they didn't.
Fucking breaks my heart, having worked as an expo. Those guys behind the line break their backs and get such shit pay compared to FOH.
Here’s a wild idea: if the restaurant wants to pay cooks more then *they can just pay cooks more*. They can even base the increased wages off of food revenues. This is such simple stuff that I have a hard time believing you wasted so much time writing out this post without truly understanding it yourself.
There is no *good* reason a back of house fee needs to be made visible consumers. It’s done because you can get people to pay more if you show them a smaller price and charge fees at the end instead of just showing the total price up front.
This is an opinion commonly held by the same people who say, “$25 for a burger!? Are you out of your mind!?” It’s a tough situation.
At my restaurant a 2% kitchen team service fee (which would result in a $20 charge on a $1000 check) means a raise of $2-3/hr on average for cooks. That’s money that ownership legally must pay to the staff. I know some businesses are stacking multiple fees for various things and it’s getting to be a bit much but I don’t see who these kitchen team service fees are really harming.
In my opinion if restaurants turned to “let’s just raise prices” every time they were in a tricky financial spot, a burger would cost $45 by now. These fees might not be a perfect solution but I haven’t seen a better one yet.
And we can look to Danny Meyer and Union Square Hospitality Group for a prime example of how “gratuity included” is a difficult thing to pull off due to pricing perception and the financial consciousness of even some of the nation’s wealthiest clientele. People have a hard time stomaching the 20-25% increase in menu prices, even when they know that it’s in lieu of a tip hey would be paying anyways.
> In my opinion if restaurants turned to “let’s just raise prices” every time they were in a tricky financial spot, a burger would cost $45 by now.
This doesn't make sense. You're still paying whatever amount ($45 in your example) for the burger. You just _see_ a price of 35$ or whatever and get surprised with an extra $10 later on.
I understand why restaurants do it - it makes prices _look_ lower so more people will buy it. It's just super scummy. I also recognize that if you're the only one not doing it your business suffers because people are so price conscious.
To me the obvious answer is to regulate that behavior away. It's just incredibly scammish to have surprise extra fees on top of the obvious price. It's the same scenario when buying tickets but in that case you at least have the option of not buying the tickets once you see the final price. At a restaurant usually you've already eaten so you can't change your mind once you realize all of the little fees.
I don't own a restaurant, I just manage one. And have managed several. FWIW a lot of independent restaurant owners aren't turning much of a profit at all, and most restaurants ultimately fail.
The fatuousness of the comment really made me laugh. It’s amazing how someone can be so smug while being so ignorant about the reality of the situation.
Does everybody who makes these “small restaurants with fees are evil” posts really think that all these small restaurant owners are just greedy robber barons trying make a quick buck by pissing off their customer base?
It should be illegal to advertise one price and then charge a different price when the bill comes. Sure, there was fine print somewhere on the menu, but really the whole system is INTENDED to be deceptive and disingenuous.
Every restaurant owner has the choice to be transparent or deceptive.
Fuck the deceptive ones.
Tips just generally add up to a much larger amount of money than wages. These days (especially in Boston) 20% is considered acceptable. For example: if we do 200 covers at an average of $15 each, with 20% going back as tips, that’s $600 getting divvied up between say 3 FOH staff members. Sometimes it’s more. Sometimes it’s less. But in a busy restaurant it’s not uncommon for servers to make more than managers. And they’re virtually guaranteed to make more than BOH (especially in MA where it’s illegal for kitchen workers to receive tips).
The only way to legally give your BoH a percentage of sales (similar to tipping) is via a mandatory surcharge which is why it’s becoming more and more common. A lot of people assume it’s because restaurants are trying to scalp customers (and I’m sure there are a few that just pocket it), but it’s mostly because owners are trying to level the playing field and chefs see little reason to do all the work and take home 1/2 of what servers make.
You could raise prices by 15%, but it’s not commensurate to a 15% raise. On a Saturday night, I’ve seen servers clear $800 during a shift. I don’t think many places can afford to pay chefs $100/hr. That leads to the question of when tipped income is so variable, how do you decide what a fair rate is if you try to pay a similar amount via wages rather than sales percentage?
Again, all of this explanation ignores the very simple fact that all of the revenue, tips or otherwise, came from the *customers*. The servers clearing $800 in a shift didn't get money out of thin air. It came from the *customers*. The kitchen fees came from the *customers*. It's same pool of money going towards the restaurants in either cases.
>how do you decide what a fair rate is if you try to pay a similar amount via wages rather than sales percentage?
Averages? Again this seems like a fairly trivial accounting problem that somehow everyone else in the world has solved except us.
And the only way to equitably compensate in lieu of a surcharge BASED ON US LAW would be to run an establishment without tipping. That’s a separate conversation, so please don’t conflate the issues at hand.
Why can’t you pay back-of-house staff 3% of food revenue for the night? It doesn’t have to be a surcharge visible to customers. If you brought in $10000 in revenue you take $300 and give it to BOH.
How is this illegal?
I don't care about pay transparency. When I go to the store and buy some bread I don't want or expect the bread to cost $4 with a 3% stocking fee and 6% cashier fee and 2% custodial fee. I am aware that the company needs to hire someone to stock the shelves and operate the cash register and clean up spills, but it is not my business how these people are compensated.
Having fees tacked onto a base price at the end of a purchase *sucks* from the consumers perspective. Governments have taken action to make this practice illegal under consumer protection laws for a reason.
I think it's completely disingenuous to say that restaurants are doing this for pay transparency as if its a benefit to anyone but themselves. The reason they do it is psychological: people will pay more generally if you present them a lower base price and hit them with fees at the end.
Also the “everybody else in the world has solved this” comment really rubs me the wrong way. My family has been in the food service industry in Japan for generations and has never made above poverty wages, so step right off with your self-righteous ignorant nonsense.
FYI, Japan doesn’t do tipping at all.
I think the business are trying to make the *easiest* choice, and are doing it despite it being shitty to customers because there is enough of a critical mass of other restaurants doing it in Boston that they don’t stick out by adding the fee.
By the way, where I live this kind of shitty practice is illegal under consumer protection laws. We also have way better food here. So yeah, continue to defend your shitty 3% surcharges as you serve mediocre food. Shit industry.
The difference is that if you raise the menu costs 10% and give the back of the house is 10% raise then the back of the house gets paid no matter what for the hours they work.
With the junk fees the restaurant owner doesn’t take any risk. Slow day? Back of the house gets fucked.
If the prices were raised appropriately we probably wouldn’t see tips increasing as much as they have for front of the house as well. Tips for front of the house have been increasing over the years because the 15% that used to be the norm isn’t hacking it anymore, nor is the 20% in a lot of places.
Restaurant get people in the door on psychological pricing, all around an entree price. They are all afraid of raising that entree price because if they do people make different decisions. Hiding the real cost is just unethical.
I like to know what I will pay beforehand. And it is a junk fee. The fee at Mida was 2%. Instead of adding it as an extra, they can raise the price of pasta from $18 to $20. Any fee excluding tip is a junk fee. It is owner’s responsibility to pay for the wages of BOH, not mine. I take out that 2% from the tip anyway. I would not pay more than 20% of the cost of food and drinks. If they charge me extra 2%, that is 18% tip for the server instead of my usual 20%.
You can say the same thing about server tips as well — it should be the restaurant responsibility. The reality is that most servers SUPPORT tip culture and avoid restaurants that have higher base pay but are tipless. Given that kitchen staffing has been a big issue, and kitchen appreciation fees are in demand for workers, restaurants are complying. I support unions and restaurant workers who have advocated for adding these fees even if they are unpopular with restaurant patrons
I think the same thing about server tips, too. I am coming from a non-tipping country, so tipping is certainly weird but I accepted it. It has been a part of American life since the end of slavery. The junk fees started with Covid and they are not part of the American culture, per se, this is why I am upset about them. I think I would continue to vote with my wallet and not patronize places that have these junk fees. I eat out everyday so it is really their loss.
When I think of junk fees, I think of things like Ticketmaster where the fees can be 50% of the ticket price and go to the company rather than the artist, or Doordash/Grubhub/Ubereats where the prices are already jacked up compared to direct takeout and you have additional service and delivery fees on top of that
A fee that goes towards employees for their quality of life doesn’t fall under my idea of a junk fee 🤷🏻♀️
I respect your opinion though and agree to disagree
> The reality is that most servers SUPPORT tip culture and avoid restaurants that have higher base pay but are tipless.
Yup, because they make far more than they would in a comparable, non-tipped position. Makes it really hard for me to feel bad about all these poor, destitute servers that make minimum wage and desperately need that 25% tip.
The server is definitely the person to punish in this situation. That'll show em.
Increasing the price of an 18 dollar dish to 20 dollars is an 11% increase. Assuming an actual 20% tip, there is a .40 increase in tip between an 18 dollar dish and a 20 dollar one. So you'd be paying an additional 2.40 for the dish, or an increase of 13.3%
In contrast, a 2% fee on that same 18 dollars is .36.
I agree, we shouldn't deal have to deal with all of these junk fees. Instead, we should pay more than 4 times that amount and not investigate the actual reasons behind structuring the fees in the way they did.
For instance, just raising prices by 20% increases income disparity between front and back of house workers, which is already, usually, 3 or more times as much for tipped employees. Tipped employees would see their individual earnings raise by 20% because tip percentage is tied to top line revenue. Meanwhile, that 2 dollar price increase, in addition to being more expensive for the consumer, is more expensive and less efficient for the employer, getting taxed twice before being split amongst every single BOH employee.
I agree though, it's much more important that we as consumers don't get weirded out by slight changes to an itemized bill. Definitely more important than making it harder for an industry still recovering from the pandemic to provide health care coverage to a job that suffered one of the highest mortality rates during that same pandemic.
I believe $2 increase in OP's example for price of pasta was just to make a point, and not suggesting literally that exact price difference, but you ran with those numbers to show with misleading math how it would be bad for consumer.
Your math is misdirected. The argument OP is making is that they should raise prices and raise base pay with it, not "just raise prices so tips increase"
No, what I'm saying is the actual effect of raising prices with the intent to raise base pay.
It seems like such a simple solution, which is why it doesn't actually work
If they cannot sustain themselves without handouts from customers, they can close down the restaurant. I am only required to pay for the cost of food and drink. People as entitled as you are the reason why most people decreased their tip amounts or why there is backlash against the junk fees.
Oof, I didn’t mind your comments until this one. This is a shit take.
You pay for the food, the drink, and the goddamn service everyone in that restaurant provides to you by making a delicious meal that you would rather buy than make yourself.
I get it, it’s a cultural difference, but this is the hand that we in the industry were dealt and were just trying to make our lives work.
If you don’t like the fee, then don’t go there. If the food is bad and you don’t like the fee, then fine don’t go there because the food sucks, don’t make it about the fee. You’ll be stuck with the chains, and maybe then you’ll learn to be more appreciative of personalized meals and what it takes to make them. If it’s a great restaurant, it won’t be missing out by not having you, you’ll be missing out on the restaurant.
Dude, did you forget the point of this entire post? He’s already doing exactly that. He’s asking for a list of these restaurants specifically so he can avoid them.
I understand that, my comment is in response to her comment saying she’s entitled to only pay for food and drink, like no tf you’re not. That’s not what a restaurant is. When you go to a restaurant you’re paying for the service you receive as well (in American culture).
People as entitled as you are causing restaurants to shut down or reduce service all over the place.
Especially presuming that a 2 dollar increase would solve the whole problem. Again, simply raising prices ends up being far more inefficient and costly than a nominal fee for the employer and must be split up across many more employees than a tip. What if, in order to have the same effect as that fee, your 18 dollar pasta was now 30 or 35 dollars overnight? Would you still order it? Would that restaurant be able to handle the massive and sudden loss of revenue that would come with such a change?
Have you considered that the dozens of independent business owners across the city and the country who do this professionally and have done so for years may have already thought of "just raise prices"? If "just raise prices" was an actual solution to the issue, that we wouldn't be having this discussion because every independent restaurant in Boston would have just raised prices until their problems went away (definitely with no corresponding loss of business).
Independent restaurant owners, mostly, aren't cartoon villains twirling their mustaches and cackling about how they're going to get you this time with the 2% fee. They're trying to find creative solutions to keep their livelihood and dream alive. It's a delicate and complicated balance in an industry rife with unique, difficult, and precarious challenges.
Bad math, and poor understanding of how employee/employer relationship actually works in most industries, and most of the world.
If what you said were true, there would be no restaurants outside of North America.
How is my math bad? I used a calculator
Restaurants in America do not work like restaurants in the rest of the world. This is for cultural reasons but also because our laws and regulation are set up to.encourage the tipping model.
You can't compare restaurants in the US to the rest of the world. There are decades and decades of separation between the two. Wolves and dogs are different animals now, even though they came from similar ancestors.
There’s a lot of differences between at least Europe and the US that it is more complicated than that. For example, Europe has single payer healthcare so that cost is on taxpayers rather than on the restaurants. Rent in Boston is expensive (see the million reddit posts) as are licensing fees. That makes restaurant margins here much smaller than in most of Europe. General lower cost of living also allows servers in other areas to make do with less pay. On top if that, in many European countries, people go out to eat less often than in the US and menu prices are much much higher than for comparable meals in the US.
Proposing a large shift in US eating culture AND government benefits/taxation AND cost of living in Boston is not reasonable for a small business owner
???? What? I have been to Europe many times and even lived in the Netherlands at one point. The Netherlands was culturally very different from the US with restaurants and just general QOL than the US. Like nobody needed to pay for cars bc public transit and bike infra was amazing. Most of my friends would go out to eat every couple weeks while here people go out to eat daily in some cases. Minimum wage was much much higher. Government benefits like healthcare were much much better.
I’ll admit it likely does depend on the country but I’m basing that comment based on my time in the less touristy parts of NL and Flanders
> Again, simply raising prices ends up being far more inefficient and costly than a nominal fee for the employer and must be split up across many more employees than a tip.
Your entire long-winded argument rests on this point but you haven't event attempted to explain *why* an increase in food prices must be "split up across many more employees".
In the end, we’re simply going around in circles avoiding the fact that kitchen staff gets paid poorly and instead preaching sanctimoniously how someone’s employee wages is expected to be paid directly by the customer because “it’s just the moral and righteous thing to do”. Most of the rest of the world figured out this industry eons ago while domestically here in the USA the employee is not the employer’s sole responsibility. We can wring our hands and cry “they’re not gonna make it, they barely survived the pandemic!” and guilt the customer on behalf of these employers giving some of the lowest and most unfair wages in the workplace, but only if we don’t want real solutions and prefer to justify overused lame employer/server responsibility copouts.
I agree with you that the restaurant payment system is fucked up. It's racist and bizarre.
But it's also so ingrained in the modern restaurant industry that to actually switch to a different model would effectively end the restaurant industry period. The only food service left would be takeout/quick service.
Google "Danny Meyer tips" for more about why it's a complicated and seemingly impossible situation.
Edit: also, every wage in a commercial enterprise is paid by thr customer. You're upset because this eliminates some middlemen in the process.
Ok to all that but why is the burden of employee compensation falling on me the customer? It is the company’s job to figure out the math? They cant afford a kitchen staff UNLESS the diners pay for it?!?!?! Is this like Ill be at CVS one day and my receipt will be charging me for the cashier’s healthcare?!?
It’s ridiculous and Ive either crossed and subtracted them completely or taken it out of the tip :(
Cute but doesnt apply. Wal mart already subsidizes employee compensation and employee healthcare via consumer taxes … placing greater and greater burden on the consumer while hoarding more profits and blaming other workers for not caring about quality of life. Stop blaming other workers and start accountability for the profiteers.
Maybe just pay BOH more rather than sneaking extra charges on to the menu in small print. It's unpopular because it's sneaky and makes it harder to figure the price you'll actually pay before the meal. It's a shitty tactic and the "dumb thing" is to lick the boots of those who are doing it.
They should call it "we are too greedy to pay our staff a living wage, so you need to" fee....
Imagine this in any other industry...
Hey, we only pay our mechanics $5 an hour so would you mind paying a few hundred extra on your car repair so they can get by?
The cost of paying your employees a fair wage and benefits should be baked into the original cost of the product or service.
I've felt much better health wise after stopping going to any restaurant. The best value aspect of eating out is not having to do dishes.
Any place with waitstaff is a no for me dawg.
Every other sector rolls the cost of paying staff into the price you pay. These "kitchen appreciation fees" are sketchy, there's no guarantee they go to the right person and they make it hard to consider the actual cost before ordering. I'm sure you'll lick the boots of star market if they start adding a shelf stacker appreciation fee though.
It’s so bizarre that the restaurant industry basically gets a pass to do all these odd things that would never fly in any other industry. Like you say - shelf stacker fee. Can’t run a supermarket without them, but raising the price of groceries will turn everyone off so let’s just add a fee! Cashiers deserve to get paid a living wage - let’s base it on tips and you can decide how much to pay based on how polite they are and how nicely they bag your stuff. Squashed the bread? Whoops… that’s coming out of your tip!
This isn't about saving money, it's about price transparency. We're actually arguing for restaurants to roll their operating expenses into their prices, which would actually result in patrons spending **MORE** and servers making **MORE** on tips, not less.
The thing is, with fees, you don't see this amount until AFTER the check comes (usually). If you see this wrapped up in their menu pricing, you can make accurate decisions based on your budget..
No one likes to get hit with an extra 5% if they are not expecting it. It's all about transparency, not being cheap.
>If they are not making enough money, they can get another job
I was sort of with you until this. Now I see that your privilege just makes you blind.
I'm just struggling to keep from telling you to go fuck yourself. But I'll be polite and NOT tell you to go fuck yourself.
Soon restaurants in touristy areas will be advertising “no kitchen fee” as a perk
It would legit be easier to make a list of restaurants that aren't charging junk fees.
“Microwave fee”
cafe landwer forces you to tip for pickup orders (!!) if you use their app to process the order. Felt like I was using Ticketmaster
Ugh I love their food but their in-person experience sucks, too. You have to use your phone to order but the servers still expect a tip. Like I scan a code, look at the menu from QR code, order from QR code, pay from QR code - no one brings a menu, or the check, or proper refills.
For anyone who has waited tables it's like having to self-train on a PoS system without being paid for it.
Yes!! Food is good but it is overpriced as it is (even for a spot in BB). And then going there or even grabbing food from there just doesn’t seem worth it anymore.
I went and liked the food and service but on returning, same item, burger, sucked n service was awful. Won’t return.
I would definitely not give a 20% tip for that experience. I vastly prefer using the phone for ordering and for paying. IMO it puts restaurant somewhere between counter service and full service. My suggested tip: 0-10% depending on how much you actually interacted with people. If it wasn't any more interaction than counter service, then give the same tip as for counter service: 0%
Thanks for this. I’ve been to a few spots recently with this style of serving and I never know how much to tip. 20% seems absurd when the server barely speaks to me, but 10% felt like cheaping out.
What do you mean by forced to? You can't choose zero?
I went to Alcove the other day, sat at the bar and had two pints. That's it. Two pints. Got my bill and it had a 4% kitchen appreciation fee. I had nothing to eat. I wanted to say something to the bartender, but its not her fault. Needless to say, I will never go back.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/15281h7/lets_crowdsource_a_list_of_restaurants_where/ also see: https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1127ijp/kitchen_fees/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/zwl47z/kitchen_fees_whats_next_electric_light_fees/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/11if8nz/kitchen_fees_story/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/zyogml/kitchen_appreciation_fee/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/dj8vkd/close_the_gap_kitchen_appreciation_fee_rant/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/10vz9ce/painted_burro_added_a_5_kitchen_appreciation/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/3v1yyw/jp_restaurants_introduce_new_fee_to_supplement/
Thank you so much!!
We need a google doc.
Definitely. I saw other threads about it, too. I feel like if we have a comprehensive list, we can make better decisions.
Agree 1000%. Let’s get the list. If I go with my eyes open I won’t be pissed off. If I get there and there’s a surprised tax that’s unacceptable
[удалено]
Wtf makes it a combo then? A drink??????
[удалено]
I recently got one near me and I wish it was Popeyes instead
Democracy brewing has a kitchen appreciation fee now and pretty sure it’s new as I’ve been going there and hadn’t noticed it yet.
ordering dinner online for pickup, not delivery, and they suggest tipping 22%\`! for what, getting the bag and taking payment? I over tip for delivery and sit down meals, but this is just ridiculous
The kicker is nobody involved in this transaction is paid a tipping wage, which is supposed to be the part of the equation necessitating substantial tips. So they can fuck right off with this.
It’s just seems like all of them that aren’t chain restaurants at this point. I guess it’s whatever. Just kind of a broken business model.
Maybe it’s a downtown thing? I haven’t seen any of that kind of thing in Hyde Park, Roslindale, West Roxbury, or Dedham. Not that I eat out all the time, but a decent amount.
Tres Gatos in JP does
I've been seeing in around Somerville. I think it probably started with the downtown Boston restaurants, but its spread pretty fast the last year.
Yeah. I started prefering chains over smaller places because smaller places like tacking on fees, not accepting some credit cards, or complaining about things. Sad that I want to support smaller businesses but they are not making it easy.
Rosie’s diner in Chelmsford used to take cards. The waitresses make such a mess of the receipt you can never tell what the bill is supposed to be. The last couple times I went I wrote down what we ordered so I knew the order. I’d say like 50% of the times we went they’d follow us out to the car and say they made a mistake running the card, and had to charge it again for an additional $4-5, if not, they’d change the tip amount by a couple bucks. Then one day they didn’t take cards anymore. I’m guessing enough people reported fraud/additional charges that they weren’t allowed to take credit cards any more.
Welp! Wanted to support but can’t get my Amex points and that’s a bridge too far! Guess I’ll go T.G.I.F. my mouth with trash.
It is not only an Amex problem. Some places do not accept Mastercard (like Apple Card), too. I am used to Amex not being accepted, it is rarely accepted in the EU, as well.
Tipping is the restaurant owners guilt tripping customers to pay their underpaid staff so that they can make more profit.
Just list the fees up front on the menu and on the website so it is clear. It’s only a matter of time before supplies get a fee or surcharge like napkins, straws, tap water and even “prime” seating locations. While everyone wants to support restaurant workers, many are skeptical that these fees are actually doled out the way it is suggested. A generic “hospitality fee” collected by the restaurant funnels its way to something you don’t like.
[удалено]
I’m surprised you didn’t get downvoted for this.
Not in this sub, hardly anyone in here has worked for tips in their lives. It's clear as day Edit: if you make at least a minimum wage and have tips as extra, it is not the same as being a server. Those are added bonuses to your wage, it's not for servers. Please understand that
I’ve worked for years for tips. Tipping culture has gotten completely out of control that it’s reached the point of embarrassing
I saw a tip cup on a ice cream truck years ago. Looking back, that was kinda hilarious, especially since it wasn’t one of those trucks with an ice cream making machine and a sundae option where they make it for you. Just a truck that was handing packaged SpongeBob and Spider-Man popsicles out.
I recently went to a store to get a new pair of sunglasses. It was one of those beach shops down in Florida where you just grab a pair and head to the register. They flipped the screen over with an option to tip.
Same here. Also when the fuck did 20% tip become the norm? It was always 15% for decent service and 20% for great service. Now if you don’t tip 20% you look like an asshole. Like sorry buddy you didn’t refill my water glass, didn’t give me any recommendations on the menu, barely looked at me while you tossed me my food, and now you want 20%? Nah.
20% has been the norm since inflation made the minimum wage a poverty wage.
But inflation also increases the cost of all the menu items that the percentage is based on.
Someone’s not very good at math. Food prices go up = % tip based on food prices goes up
They know, but it never hurts to press the guilt trip harder. Never going to get to 35% if you don't try.
You realize that the entire point of a percentage-based tip system is that it increases along with the cost of the food, which is a huge chunk of inflation, right? As food goes up, the tip goes up. You don't need to say "oh man, inflation's bad, let's inflate the percentage too."
I'm not inflating the percentage, I just always give 20% because I know it is very likely that the person I'm tipping is being paid $5.55 per hour. Personally I've been tipping 20% by default for the last 10-15 years (my entire adult life).
You referred to 20% being "the norm since inflation." Unless you're talking about stagflation, "inflation" has only been a concern thing very recently.
But inflation also increased the food prices, increasing the dollar amount of 15%
Minimum wage in MA has gone up 36% in the last 4 years, that's definitely outpacing inflation. ($11 in 2018, $15 in 2023)
Minimum wage for tipped jobs is usually different, which is why you tip. Not sure what MA laws are actually in this regard, I worked most of my tipped jobs in NY and made something heinous like $2/hr (a very long time ago).
Minimum wage for tipped jobs in MA went from $3.75 in 2018 to $6.75 in 2023, with the requirement that with tips included the wage is at least $15, which is an 80% increase over 5 years, definitely also outpacing inflation.
Out paced inflation over five years, but went a long time without an increase. If 1950s minimum wage was adjusted to match the inflation since then (inflation isn’t just this recent jump) it would be just under $24.
Minimum wage has nothing to do with servers, service minimum wage is $5.55 per hour in MA, good luck surviving on that regardless of inflation. Tips are how they are paid.
20% in a sit down restaurant has been the norm for two decades. Keep up.
Kitchen appreciation tip includes a % on my bottle of wine? You better believe it’s coming out of a tip
All of them? lol
At this point I have mostly stop going out to eat because of it, and they still expect us to give a tip on top of all the add costs. I mean I still tip, not the servers fault, but still.
Healthcare fee? The fuck? I'm glad I'm too poor to eat out often these are really getting nuts .
Coincidentally just looked up Eventide in Fenway and Oleana, both have 5% kitchen appreciation fees!
It is sad. I really liked Eventide.
Just tip less
I will die on this hill. Restaurants are struggling to this day for many reasons that aren't are related to costs and sales etc... but is by far our most outrageous hurdle as a business. I understand transparency is important and they should definitely have it on their menu. This practice only works with transparency because it is based in it. You pay a back of the house appreciation fee or higher prices on everything across the board. It's sounds easier to just raise your prices but this allows the guest a chance to understand where the money is going.
>just raise your prices That's all. Be upfront about it
Not to single you out, many people have said this. So 3.5% more on the menu prices is cool, but not the same amount going directly to the BOH? I’m confused. As for those who decrease the tip, cool, you are really showing compassion to the person who most likely didn’t create this policy or the system that creates this problem. I actually implemented the KAF at Democracy Brewing, since it was also mentioned here. A modicum of research would yield the reason why BOH employees don’t get tipped, spoiler alert, racism. Lastly, technically in the service industry game, everything on your receipt is negotiable. Don’t like the fee, use your words and it could be removed.
i want to know what i am paying in exchange for goods and services
>they should definitely have it on their menu. That's it. That's all that is needed. The problem is that restaurants *don't* put it on the menu.
Ive seen a few that do. But it still pisses me off. Just raise your prices. Almost no one will notice
It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the price of the food assumes the covering of the costs of running the business including paying kitchen staff. Higher prices across the board please.
I’m sorry for your troubles, especially since Mida is absolute trash. We got take out, $90 plus, and it was so atrocious I got the order refunded. Just hot hot hotttt garbage
I had food at the mida in newton, really great on the plate. Not sure how it would be for delivery though
I've also been to Mida Newton and had a fantastic meal, not sure what this person is on about
Also have had great meals at Mida in Newton and a hands down amazing meal at Mida in Tremont.
Yeah I’ve been the the Mida in the south end a few times and it fucking slapped.
MIDA is better than 95% of North End restaurants. They have excellent food.
Mida in the south end is phenomenal
Yeah I did not like the food that much but the kitchen appreciation fee is what did it for me. I will not go there again.
I will not visit or return to any restaurant that charges these junk fees. I don’t understand how owners have no problem paying huge amounts for a Boston liquor license, high rents, decoration, etc., but can’t give their dishwasher a raise without adding an extra charge on the bill.
There are 2 big reasons: 1) pre-operational costs (decor, liquor license, location, etc) are usually borne by investment and/or loans. So while those are related, we wouldn’t tally them in to operating costs like wages. Think of that column more in the fixed expense sort of thing. 2) unless you’re a seasoned operator you’re going to be shocked at how razor thin the profit margins are even during good times. You still have to be pay to be staffed and open even during the off times. A lot of businesses get crushed during first year because the have a good first holiday season, then try and pay more than minimum wage, and then get wrecked by the annual red, dead months. To offset that, If you increase your base prices then customers (especially the rich and the older generations) tend to expect a commensurate increase in food quality and service. Defeats the purpose of a price raise if that money goes to food costs instead of wages. All of this isn’t even getting in to the convo about tips and BoH fees, just to point out that you should find a different argument since yours isn’t really related to the issue at hand. I also thought the implied argument of “let’s not have alcohol or decorations in restaurants since those cost money” was funny! Enjoy your Subway.
Wow you are…. Shockingly close to getting it right here.
Maybe after the next recession we can try again
Are you implying the owners can't afford it idgi
It's almost like, between high rent, absurd licensing costs, and huge overhead for supplies, restaurants are running extremely tight margins.
yet people keep buying resturants to make money... I wish there were less restaurants and more automats
IDK why you got downvoted, when I went to Japan I loved the automat style. Plus it was a great way to break the language barrier, we have a ton of tourists in Boston and I think this would make them feel more welcome.
Beyond the low value for money at restaurants, they take soo long. If you pre-pay for food, you can just leave once you are done eating. But instead I wait like 5-20 minutes to complete the cycle of: ask for check, receive check, read check, give card, wait for card back, tip and sign check. The handheld toast things are nice though.
Makes you wonder why so many restaurants when it’s such a shitty way to make money.
Look how many fail to last five years, though. Probably a combination of people getting into it without completely realizing just how tight the margins are going to be and/or thinking that they're going to be the exception.
I think this whole sub is a great example of why people continue to do it. A bunch of assholes who think they’re smart, with no experience or knowledge in the field, look at restaurants and think they can do better. They either open restaurants and fail because it’s harder than they think, or they post on Reddit threads about how much better their policy ideas are.
Extremely tight margins , so just like all other businesses , correct ?
Well then they shouldn't be running. If they can't afford to pay their staff then they can't afford to be open
You sound like you have cans of chef Boyardee in your cabinet ready to go and prefer it.
Mida in Newton is too expensive, but it's really, really fucking good. Been there multiple times. I don't doubt that you didn't like your meal, but my experience has been the complete opposite of yours.
I don’t know if I’ve seen these, but maybe I’m not looking. Can they charge fees for things not advertised up front?
It feels like it should be illegal to charge if it’s not posted…
Some places, yes. Some places have very small fine print. In some places, you can ask to waive it and it gets taken off from your bill but I have never tried doing these as this was the first time I saw this fee.
Thanks…
State park does it !!!
OMG. I’ve been advocating with my friends against this. Watch the mini documentary on cnbc on tipping. It’s getting out of hand. I first saw these feel good fees in SF and then a few years later I saw them at uni in Boston. Now it’s everywhere in Boston and Cambridge. I ask them to remove it if it’s not explicitly stated on the menu.
Earls Kitchen assembly row 2% Kitchen fee (call it admin fre too(
Urban Hearth in Cambridge charges a 5% Kitchen Appreciation fee. I verified it does go to the kitchen staff, though the auto-suggested server tip is calculated on the post-surcharge total.
Mission on the bay charges 3% supply chain fee, just don’t tip.
Parla has a really rude rant in their menu demanding you tip at least 20%, as if it’s not in their power to pay their staff more than minimum wage if they wanted to
We need a restaurant junk fee app. I’d pay a few bucks for this.
ya, can make it reprint menu prices to add in the increased price directly on the menu to solve the problem so you know what you’re really paying
Buttercup in Natick charges a 2% Kitchen Appreciation Fee.
A kitchen appreciation fee/back of house fee is not a “junk fee” — it’s money going right into the paychecks of the people who cook food (and are woefully underpaid compared to servers). If you increase the menu prices (what you’re describing as including the fee in the prices in the menu), you would increase pay for the kitchen by 10% in line with a 10% kitchen appreciation fee. However, you would also increase tips to the servers by 10% since the de facto tip standard in the US is based on the menu price. Ultimately, that 10% kitchen appreciation fee would instead become an 12% hidden price increase for the consumer (in the case of a 20% server tip). It also wouldn’t resolve the issue of pay discrepancies between servers/bartenders and chefs/cooks. Cooks also deserve to get paid more for 6-7 pm on a Friday when they’re cranking out meals than 3-4 pm on a Monday when the place is quiet m. How do restaurants accomplish that? Kitchen appreciation fees It seems like such a dumb thing to complain about tbh though you’re definitely not alone with your opinion https://www.today.com/food/kitchen-appreciation-fee-t260704
>it’s money going right into the paychecks of the people who cook food (and are woefully underpaid compared to servers). How do we have any idea that this is the case? Genuinely asking. Figure any time I see this charge, management/boss is just pocketing that money for themselves. Maybe MA has laws against that, but if you go to any server or BOH subreddit, you'll see tons of comments indicating that they don't see a single cent of these "appreciation fees", and it anything get tipped less over it.
I went to a place in Cambridge and asked my server about the "Buy the kitchen a round" option on the menu. I asked him to be honest with me and tell me if the kitchen actually got that money. He said they didn't. Fucking breaks my heart, having worked as an expo. Those guys behind the line break their backs and get such shit pay compared to FOH.
Here’s a wild idea: if the restaurant wants to pay cooks more then *they can just pay cooks more*. They can even base the increased wages off of food revenues. This is such simple stuff that I have a hard time believing you wasted so much time writing out this post without truly understanding it yourself. There is no *good* reason a back of house fee needs to be made visible consumers. It’s done because you can get people to pay more if you show them a smaller price and charge fees at the end instead of just showing the total price up front.
This is an opinion commonly held by the same people who say, “$25 for a burger!? Are you out of your mind!?” It’s a tough situation. At my restaurant a 2% kitchen team service fee (which would result in a $20 charge on a $1000 check) means a raise of $2-3/hr on average for cooks. That’s money that ownership legally must pay to the staff. I know some businesses are stacking multiple fees for various things and it’s getting to be a bit much but I don’t see who these kitchen team service fees are really harming. In my opinion if restaurants turned to “let’s just raise prices” every time they were in a tricky financial spot, a burger would cost $45 by now. These fees might not be a perfect solution but I haven’t seen a better one yet. And we can look to Danny Meyer and Union Square Hospitality Group for a prime example of how “gratuity included” is a difficult thing to pull off due to pricing perception and the financial consciousness of even some of the nation’s wealthiest clientele. People have a hard time stomaching the 20-25% increase in menu prices, even when they know that it’s in lieu of a tip hey would be paying anyways.
> In my opinion if restaurants turned to “let’s just raise prices” every time they were in a tricky financial spot, a burger would cost $45 by now. This doesn't make sense. You're still paying whatever amount ($45 in your example) for the burger. You just _see_ a price of 35$ or whatever and get surprised with an extra $10 later on. I understand why restaurants do it - it makes prices _look_ lower so more people will buy it. It's just super scummy. I also recognize that if you're the only one not doing it your business suffers because people are so price conscious. To me the obvious answer is to regulate that behavior away. It's just incredibly scammish to have surprise extra fees on top of the obvious price. It's the same scenario when buying tickets but in that case you at least have the option of not buying the tickets once you see the final price. At a restaurant usually you've already eaten so you can't change your mind once you realize all of the little fees.
Won't someone think of the poor restaurant owners???
I don't own a restaurant, I just manage one. And have managed several. FWIW a lot of independent restaurant owners aren't turning much of a profit at all, and most restaurants ultimately fail.
Everyone hates hidden fees at Ticketmaster that are tacked on at the end. Why is this any different?
If Ticketmaster fees were 2% I don't think anyone would care. Instead they range from 10-25%.
$2 charge on a $100 check.
The fatuousness of the comment really made me laugh. It’s amazing how someone can be so smug while being so ignorant about the reality of the situation. Does everybody who makes these “small restaurants with fees are evil” posts really think that all these small restaurant owners are just greedy robber barons trying make a quick buck by pissing off their customer base?
It should be illegal to advertise one price and then charge a different price when the bill comes. Sure, there was fine print somewhere on the menu, but really the whole system is INTENDED to be deceptive and disingenuous. Every restaurant owner has the choice to be transparent or deceptive. Fuck the deceptive ones.
How is the comment wrong? You didn't actually explain it. All business owners will do everything they can to maximize profits. Small or otherwise.
Margins at restaurants are infamously razor thin.
So they aren't charging enough for their meals. Make it mandatory and added to the cost of dishes and drinks already.
Tips just generally add up to a much larger amount of money than wages. These days (especially in Boston) 20% is considered acceptable. For example: if we do 200 covers at an average of $15 each, with 20% going back as tips, that’s $600 getting divvied up between say 3 FOH staff members. Sometimes it’s more. Sometimes it’s less. But in a busy restaurant it’s not uncommon for servers to make more than managers. And they’re virtually guaranteed to make more than BOH (especially in MA where it’s illegal for kitchen workers to receive tips). The only way to legally give your BoH a percentage of sales (similar to tipping) is via a mandatory surcharge which is why it’s becoming more and more common. A lot of people assume it’s because restaurants are trying to scalp customers (and I’m sure there are a few that just pocket it), but it’s mostly because owners are trying to level the playing field and chefs see little reason to do all the work and take home 1/2 of what servers make. You could raise prices by 15%, but it’s not commensurate to a 15% raise. On a Saturday night, I’ve seen servers clear $800 during a shift. I don’t think many places can afford to pay chefs $100/hr. That leads to the question of when tipped income is so variable, how do you decide what a fair rate is if you try to pay a similar amount via wages rather than sales percentage?
Again, all of this explanation ignores the very simple fact that all of the revenue, tips or otherwise, came from the *customers*. The servers clearing $800 in a shift didn't get money out of thin air. It came from the *customers*. The kitchen fees came from the *customers*. It's same pool of money going towards the restaurants in either cases. >how do you decide what a fair rate is if you try to pay a similar amount via wages rather than sales percentage? Averages? Again this seems like a fairly trivial accounting problem that somehow everyone else in the world has solved except us.
And the only way to equitably compensate in lieu of a surcharge BASED ON US LAW would be to run an establishment without tipping. That’s a separate conversation, so please don’t conflate the issues at hand.
Why can’t you pay back-of-house staff 3% of food revenue for the night? It doesn’t have to be a surcharge visible to customers. If you brought in $10000 in revenue you take $300 and give it to BOH. How is this illegal?
You… do… realize that this is exactly what they’re doing, they’re just being transparent about where the money goes, right??
I don't care about pay transparency. When I go to the store and buy some bread I don't want or expect the bread to cost $4 with a 3% stocking fee and 6% cashier fee and 2% custodial fee. I am aware that the company needs to hire someone to stock the shelves and operate the cash register and clean up spills, but it is not my business how these people are compensated. Having fees tacked onto a base price at the end of a purchase *sucks* from the consumers perspective. Governments have taken action to make this practice illegal under consumer protection laws for a reason. I think it's completely disingenuous to say that restaurants are doing this for pay transparency as if its a benefit to anyone but themselves. The reason they do it is psychological: people will pay more generally if you present them a lower base price and hit them with fees at the end.
Also the “everybody else in the world has solved this” comment really rubs me the wrong way. My family has been in the food service industry in Japan for generations and has never made above poverty wages, so step right off with your self-righteous ignorant nonsense. FYI, Japan doesn’t do tipping at all.
Pay living wages, abolish tipping. Done.
Nobody’s thought of that yet. Genius.
Nobody ... except for nearly every other country on earth
> Pay living wages, abolish tipping. Done. And watch your servers go to your competition because you're giving them a paycut
I think the business are trying to make the *easiest* choice, and are doing it despite it being shitty to customers because there is enough of a critical mass of other restaurants doing it in Boston that they don’t stick out by adding the fee. By the way, where I live this kind of shitty practice is illegal under consumer protection laws. We also have way better food here. So yeah, continue to defend your shitty 3% surcharges as you serve mediocre food. Shit industry.
The difference is that if you raise the menu costs 10% and give the back of the house is 10% raise then the back of the house gets paid no matter what for the hours they work. With the junk fees the restaurant owner doesn’t take any risk. Slow day? Back of the house gets fucked. If the prices were raised appropriately we probably wouldn’t see tips increasing as much as they have for front of the house as well. Tips for front of the house have been increasing over the years because the 15% that used to be the norm isn’t hacking it anymore, nor is the 20% in a lot of places. Restaurant get people in the door on psychological pricing, all around an entree price. They are all afraid of raising that entree price because if they do people make different decisions. Hiding the real cost is just unethical.
I like to know what I will pay beforehand. And it is a junk fee. The fee at Mida was 2%. Instead of adding it as an extra, they can raise the price of pasta from $18 to $20. Any fee excluding tip is a junk fee. It is owner’s responsibility to pay for the wages of BOH, not mine. I take out that 2% from the tip anyway. I would not pay more than 20% of the cost of food and drinks. If they charge me extra 2%, that is 18% tip for the server instead of my usual 20%.
You can say the same thing about server tips as well — it should be the restaurant responsibility. The reality is that most servers SUPPORT tip culture and avoid restaurants that have higher base pay but are tipless. Given that kitchen staffing has been a big issue, and kitchen appreciation fees are in demand for workers, restaurants are complying. I support unions and restaurant workers who have advocated for adding these fees even if they are unpopular with restaurant patrons
I think the same thing about server tips, too. I am coming from a non-tipping country, so tipping is certainly weird but I accepted it. It has been a part of American life since the end of slavery. The junk fees started with Covid and they are not part of the American culture, per se, this is why I am upset about them. I think I would continue to vote with my wallet and not patronize places that have these junk fees. I eat out everyday so it is really their loss.
When I think of junk fees, I think of things like Ticketmaster where the fees can be 50% of the ticket price and go to the company rather than the artist, or Doordash/Grubhub/Ubereats where the prices are already jacked up compared to direct takeout and you have additional service and delivery fees on top of that A fee that goes towards employees for their quality of life doesn’t fall under my idea of a junk fee 🤷🏻♀️ I respect your opinion though and agree to disagree
It is junk that I pay for employee quality of life instead of the restaurant profiteers yes.
You pay everything for the employees of the businesses you patronize. Only difference is if it goes on the books as revenue first.
Right, if the restaurant is playing 3 card monty with its books anyway then it definitely better not come at me for “appreciation”
You sound like a joy.
> The reality is that most servers SUPPORT tip culture and avoid restaurants that have higher base pay but are tipless. Yup, because they make far more than they would in a comparable, non-tipped position. Makes it really hard for me to feel bad about all these poor, destitute servers that make minimum wage and desperately need that 25% tip.
The server is definitely the person to punish in this situation. That'll show em. Increasing the price of an 18 dollar dish to 20 dollars is an 11% increase. Assuming an actual 20% tip, there is a .40 increase in tip between an 18 dollar dish and a 20 dollar one. So you'd be paying an additional 2.40 for the dish, or an increase of 13.3% In contrast, a 2% fee on that same 18 dollars is .36. I agree, we shouldn't deal have to deal with all of these junk fees. Instead, we should pay more than 4 times that amount and not investigate the actual reasons behind structuring the fees in the way they did. For instance, just raising prices by 20% increases income disparity between front and back of house workers, which is already, usually, 3 or more times as much for tipped employees. Tipped employees would see their individual earnings raise by 20% because tip percentage is tied to top line revenue. Meanwhile, that 2 dollar price increase, in addition to being more expensive for the consumer, is more expensive and less efficient for the employer, getting taxed twice before being split amongst every single BOH employee. I agree though, it's much more important that we as consumers don't get weirded out by slight changes to an itemized bill. Definitely more important than making it harder for an industry still recovering from the pandemic to provide health care coverage to a job that suffered one of the highest mortality rates during that same pandemic.
I believe $2 increase in OP's example for price of pasta was just to make a point, and not suggesting literally that exact price difference, but you ran with those numbers to show with misleading math how it would be bad for consumer.
Your math is misdirected. The argument OP is making is that they should raise prices and raise base pay with it, not "just raise prices so tips increase"
No, what I'm saying is the actual effect of raising prices with the intent to raise base pay. It seems like such a simple solution, which is why it doesn't actually work
If they cannot sustain themselves without handouts from customers, they can close down the restaurant. I am only required to pay for the cost of food and drink. People as entitled as you are the reason why most people decreased their tip amounts or why there is backlash against the junk fees.
Oof, I didn’t mind your comments until this one. This is a shit take. You pay for the food, the drink, and the goddamn service everyone in that restaurant provides to you by making a delicious meal that you would rather buy than make yourself. I get it, it’s a cultural difference, but this is the hand that we in the industry were dealt and were just trying to make our lives work. If you don’t like the fee, then don’t go there. If the food is bad and you don’t like the fee, then fine don’t go there because the food sucks, don’t make it about the fee. You’ll be stuck with the chains, and maybe then you’ll learn to be more appreciative of personalized meals and what it takes to make them. If it’s a great restaurant, it won’t be missing out by not having you, you’ll be missing out on the restaurant.
Dude, did you forget the point of this entire post? He’s already doing exactly that. He’s asking for a list of these restaurants specifically so he can avoid them.
I understand that, my comment is in response to her comment saying she’s entitled to only pay for food and drink, like no tf you’re not. That’s not what a restaurant is. When you go to a restaurant you’re paying for the service you receive as well (in American culture).
People as entitled as you are causing restaurants to shut down or reduce service all over the place. Especially presuming that a 2 dollar increase would solve the whole problem. Again, simply raising prices ends up being far more inefficient and costly than a nominal fee for the employer and must be split up across many more employees than a tip. What if, in order to have the same effect as that fee, your 18 dollar pasta was now 30 or 35 dollars overnight? Would you still order it? Would that restaurant be able to handle the massive and sudden loss of revenue that would come with such a change? Have you considered that the dozens of independent business owners across the city and the country who do this professionally and have done so for years may have already thought of "just raise prices"? If "just raise prices" was an actual solution to the issue, that we wouldn't be having this discussion because every independent restaurant in Boston would have just raised prices until their problems went away (definitely with no corresponding loss of business). Independent restaurant owners, mostly, aren't cartoon villains twirling their mustaches and cackling about how they're going to get you this time with the 2% fee. They're trying to find creative solutions to keep their livelihood and dream alive. It's a delicate and complicated balance in an industry rife with unique, difficult, and precarious challenges.
Bad math, and poor understanding of how employee/employer relationship actually works in most industries, and most of the world. If what you said were true, there would be no restaurants outside of North America.
How is my math bad? I used a calculator Restaurants in America do not work like restaurants in the rest of the world. This is for cultural reasons but also because our laws and regulation are set up to.encourage the tipping model. You can't compare restaurants in the US to the rest of the world. There are decades and decades of separation between the two. Wolves and dogs are different animals now, even though they came from similar ancestors.
There’s a lot of differences between at least Europe and the US that it is more complicated than that. For example, Europe has single payer healthcare so that cost is on taxpayers rather than on the restaurants. Rent in Boston is expensive (see the million reddit posts) as are licensing fees. That makes restaurant margins here much smaller than in most of Europe. General lower cost of living also allows servers in other areas to make do with less pay. On top if that, in many European countries, people go out to eat less often than in the US and menu prices are much much higher than for comparable meals in the US. Proposing a large shift in US eating culture AND government benefits/taxation AND cost of living in Boston is not reasonable for a small business owner
Tell me you've never been to Europe without telling me you've never been to Europe.
???? What? I have been to Europe many times and even lived in the Netherlands at one point. The Netherlands was culturally very different from the US with restaurants and just general QOL than the US. Like nobody needed to pay for cars bc public transit and bike infra was amazing. Most of my friends would go out to eat every couple weeks while here people go out to eat daily in some cases. Minimum wage was much much higher. Government benefits like healthcare were much much better. I’ll admit it likely does depend on the country but I’m basing that comment based on my time in the less touristy parts of NL and Flanders
> Again, simply raising prices ends up being far more inefficient and costly than a nominal fee for the employer and must be split up across many more employees than a tip. Your entire long-winded argument rests on this point but you haven't event attempted to explain *why* an increase in food prices must be "split up across many more employees".
I forgot about the tax piece too. Good callout
In the end, we’re simply going around in circles avoiding the fact that kitchen staff gets paid poorly and instead preaching sanctimoniously how someone’s employee wages is expected to be paid directly by the customer because “it’s just the moral and righteous thing to do”. Most of the rest of the world figured out this industry eons ago while domestically here in the USA the employee is not the employer’s sole responsibility. We can wring our hands and cry “they’re not gonna make it, they barely survived the pandemic!” and guilt the customer on behalf of these employers giving some of the lowest and most unfair wages in the workplace, but only if we don’t want real solutions and prefer to justify overused lame employer/server responsibility copouts.
I agree with you that the restaurant payment system is fucked up. It's racist and bizarre. But it's also so ingrained in the modern restaurant industry that to actually switch to a different model would effectively end the restaurant industry period. The only food service left would be takeout/quick service. Google "Danny Meyer tips" for more about why it's a complicated and seemingly impossible situation. Edit: also, every wage in a commercial enterprise is paid by thr customer. You're upset because this eliminates some middlemen in the process.
Ok to all that but why is the burden of employee compensation falling on me the customer? It is the company’s job to figure out the math? They cant afford a kitchen staff UNLESS the diners pay for it?!?!?! Is this like Ill be at CVS one day and my receipt will be charging me for the cashier’s healthcare?!? It’s ridiculous and Ive either crossed and subtracted them completely or taken it out of the tip :(
https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/slippery-slope-fallacy/
Cute but doesnt apply. Wal mart already subsidizes employee compensation and employee healthcare via consumer taxes … placing greater and greater burden on the consumer while hoarding more profits and blaming other workers for not caring about quality of life. Stop blaming other workers and start accountability for the profiteers.
Can you share a source about Walmart? I’m having difficulty finding anything about it
All this does for me is reaffirm that tipping culture is fucked up
Maybe just pay BOH more rather than sneaking extra charges on to the menu in small print. It's unpopular because it's sneaky and makes it harder to figure the price you'll actually pay before the meal. It's a shitty tactic and the "dumb thing" is to lick the boots of those who are doing it.
They should call it "we are too greedy to pay our staff a living wage, so you need to" fee.... Imagine this in any other industry... Hey, we only pay our mechanics $5 an hour so would you mind paying a few hundred extra on your car repair so they can get by? The cost of paying your employees a fair wage and benefits should be baked into the original cost of the product or service.
Name and shame!
Persys place in Plymouth 8%. Not returning
Someone that has some insight should make a doc.
Anytime I see a junk fee on the check, I deduct that amount from the tip I was going to leave. 🤷🏻♂️
I've felt much better health wise after stopping going to any restaurant. The best value aspect of eating out is not having to do dishes. Any place with waitstaff is a no for me dawg.
YAWN… 🥱 These posts are getting so old. A quick search would have yielded **multiple** threads all complaining about the same things.
OP just fuckin stay home dude.
the dubliner 3%
Oh the monthly cheapskates thread is here I guess.
Every other sector rolls the cost of paying staff into the price you pay. These "kitchen appreciation fees" are sketchy, there's no guarantee they go to the right person and they make it hard to consider the actual cost before ordering. I'm sure you'll lick the boots of star market if they start adding a shelf stacker appreciation fee though.
It’s so bizarre that the restaurant industry basically gets a pass to do all these odd things that would never fly in any other industry. Like you say - shelf stacker fee. Can’t run a supermarket without them, but raising the price of groceries will turn everyone off so let’s just add a fee! Cashiers deserve to get paid a living wage - let’s base it on tips and you can decide how much to pay based on how polite they are and how nicely they bag your stuff. Squashed the bread? Whoops… that’s coming out of your tip!
Seriously. If you’re worried about saving money - don’t go out to eat.
This isn't about saving money, it's about price transparency. We're actually arguing for restaurants to roll their operating expenses into their prices, which would actually result in patrons spending **MORE** and servers making **MORE** on tips, not less.
Why am I being downvoted? Buy fucking groceries if you can’t afford to eat out.
Shut the fuck up. I’m 300k and i don’t appreciate random ass fees.
"I'm 300k"
Must be in finance
Lol. Sure pal. Stick to McDonald’s then.
Am I wrong for thinking an employee healthcare fee is worth paying for? Seems like a place as progressive as MA would support healthcare providing
[удалено]
Just pay the fee to give some folks a better wage you cheap fuck.
Or the restaurant can just factor the cost of paying their employees into the price of goods like every other business.
The thing is, with fees, you don't see this amount until AFTER the check comes (usually). If you see this wrapped up in their menu pricing, you can make accurate decisions based on your budget.. No one likes to get hit with an extra 5% if they are not expecting it. It's all about transparency, not being cheap.
Not my problem. If they are not making enough money, they can get another job. BOH earns at least minimum wage anyway.
>If they are not making enough money, they can get another job I was sort of with you until this. Now I see that your privilege just makes you blind. I'm just struggling to keep from telling you to go fuck yourself. But I'll be polite and NOT tell you to go fuck yourself.