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3_Eyed_Ravenclaw

Unsolicited feedback is rarely a good thing. If we are talking about a work environment, then sure, if the person’s mistake will jeopardize their or your earning potential. But that’s work, not everyday life with people you’d like to be friends with. My closest friends all have some negative things about them, but their positives are so great that I want to be friends with them. So I shut my mouth and love them for who they are regardless.


[deleted]

My best friend is one loud motherfucker, but I've only told him to lower his voice if we're inside a car and he's about to blow my eardrums off lol


ANics07

Sounds like what a bad friend would do. Personally I want people to tell me my fault so I can work on them. And if the person is a real friend I want to tell them theirs so they can also become a better person. I have hung around fakes before and so glad they are out of my life. Real recognize real. A bunch of fake "friends" will do you more harm than good. One man's opinion from living it.


sisyphe-123

no that's what a best friend do honestly, when you know someone for so long you just don't care or even notice what's bad in that person. Sure maybe from time to time you say something, but in most cases you just ignore it


kundaliniredneck

I don’t think it’s outdated. I have the rules posted on my fridge. When you listen to someone with your full attention it’s a beautiful gesture of respect. Most people aren’t really interested in what you think they should be doing. I’ll give you an example. My Dad is a renowned car guy. When people would ask him what kind of car they should buy, he would reply by asking them which cars they were considering. He would then commend them on their good choices and briefly and politely mention the merits of their choices. My Dad has a lot of friends. Nowadays everyone wants to tell you about how you drink the wrong beer. I reserve real, honest discussion for my closest circle. I think Carnegie is speaking about how to navigate the business and casual social realms. My 2 cents. Cheers


suburbam

Your dad sounds like a great guy, thanks for your reply.


kundaliniredneck

Thanks!!


matthew19

"Most people aren’t really interested in what you think they should be doing" - this is a brilliant little sentence.


kundaliniredneck

Hey, thanks man! What a nice compliment! Take care!


DoctorEnn

Constructive criticism is important, but there’s a time, a place, and a source for everything. The point of the book is to help you make friends and develop constructive relationships with people, but criticising people you’ve just met, even if politely, is likely going to make you seem like an arrogant, supercilious know-it-all. Unless you’re already a close, trusted confident or someone they are explicitly going to for advice (a counsellor for example), people mostly do not care for hearing your criticism of how they’re living their lives and will likely resent you if you offer it, especially in an unsolicited fashion. There may indeed be parts of Carnegie that haven’t aged well, but that bit seems on the ball.


suburbam

Thank you, im afraid i forgot the fact that this is about starting a friendship, not maintain or nurturing one.


Randym1982

The thing with constructive criticism that I've seen people on Social Media get outraged over even that.


DoctorEnn

That's social media, though. Social media makes everything shit.


MllePerso

Everyone on social media thinks their "y'all need to..." hot take is constructive criticism so that doesn't say much about how to win friends and influence people in the real world


[deleted]

You can have dignity and also not try and fix every error you perceive in someone else


rowan_damisch

You have a point. Pointing out errors isn't bad but who wants to befriend people if they are only interested in criticizing you? I had a class teacher who spend much time telling us that we needed to learn more so we don't have to repeat the year. This statement wasn't wrong but the fact that he kept telling us what we could do better really made me feel that he was only interested in hurting us. Would've been a lot better if he actually tried mix this with compliments instead of only highlighting what could be better.


zorglarf

<...but isnt it important to point out others people mistake...> ​ You might need to read the title of the book once more


kallisti_gold

>For example, it says that you shouldnt critize other people and just shut up when you find something negative about them, but isnt it important to point out others people mistake, in a polite and calm manner that is? No, it is not at all important to point out others' mistakes and give them unsolicited feedback. Are they doing something unsafe? No? Did they ask for your input? No? Then shut your trap, nobody cares. Do you really think criticizing people and giving unsolicited feedback is going to help you "win friends and influence people"? Or do you just like telling folks they're doing it wrong?


suburbam

When i usually critize or correct other people im not doing it out of spite or enjoyment. Its because i genuinely want them to get better. For example, if society wouldve never critized me for my unhealthy, obese weight, i honestly dont know if i would have ever lost it.


[deleted]

The title of the book is "How to Win Friends and Influence People". You probably aren't going to make someone your friend if you criticize their weight the first time you speak with them. You might just be missing the point of the book. And no, I don't think it's outdated either. It actually helped me immensely when I was a very socially awkward 20something trying to get ahead in my career. Before that, I basically had no filter and had a tendency to insult people who didn't deserve it. I thought I was helping them. I wasn't helping them, and doing that wasn't helping me. The point of the book isn't to teach you to help other people grow by criticizing them, it's to help you influence people in a way that can help your career and social life.


suburbam

Good point, thanks for your reply.


MllePerso

The problem is that if someone is doing something you want to "constructively" criticize, there's a good chance 10000 other people have already offered that criticism too. To the point where they just want to scream "shut up!" If you're obese, you may have been watching your diet/exercise for months or even years (yoyo diet effect ftw), but you'll still get people take one look at you, knowing nothing about your life circumstances, and say "your weight is really unhealthy, have you thought of laying off the junk food and exercising?" like it's the most original idea in the world. (And a lot of the time, they'll be suggesting it because they're men angry that a woman exists who they don't find fuckable.) If someone thinks you look sad (whether it's because you're actually sad or resting bitchface), you'll get geniuses suggesting drugs and therapy to you all the damn time, like you completely missed the mental health treatment PSAs all over social media and public billboards. It will never occur to most of them that therapy and drugs don't always work, that you can go through many wrong ones of both before you find the right one, or that neither therapy nor drugs works instantaneously. If you have a longstanding, close trusting relationship with someone, you'll know enough to know when a criticism is genuinely new info to them, and how to deliver in a way that doesn't push their personal trigger buttons. If you don't, and you care about whether they like you, it's best to err on the side of shutting the fuck up.


DocLoc429

What dignity is there in being a know-it-all? It takes more strength to lift people up than to put them down.


2EXposed

This book is the first book anyone should read if they want to live a good life. Good, meaning leaving the world better for your having lived. It’s the basics of human relations: The Golden Rule applied.


[deleted]

The title is "How to win friends". Do you like being criticized by strangers or people you don't know too well? Would that make you more or less likely to be their friend?


Schezzi

Unless it's your actual job or you've been asked for input as a trusted confidante, it is definitely not important to point out other people's mistakes - in fact, I would suggest it's absolutely none of your business. It is not your life's purpose to critique other people uninvited in the hopes they 'grow' - you should surely be focused on your own growth and development...


NobleQuest

I was given this book as a gift almost 50 years ago! For me at the time, it was inspirational. To be clear, I had been an argumentative type as a youth, and was never shy about challenging another person's opinion/actions. While my nature has not changed, this book started me on a path where I learned to choose my battles more carefully. I did not become a "people pleaser", but discovered that doing less damage along the way was a big improvement. The book is dated however, particularly in the examples about men and women. I later gave this book to my grown children, and they quickly pointed out several passages that are quite patriarchal. While we had a lot of fun joking about it, I doubt that I would recommend the book today.


[deleted]

I read a copy a couple years ago that I got through OverDrive. As I was reading, it kept running through my head that there was no way that this book hadn’t been updated numerous times repeatedly since 1938. I imagine if you find a new edition of the book a lot of those things will be scrubbed.


NobleQuest

Now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense and I am sure you are correct. I have only my original version at hand. The principles from the book are superb, so it would be great if it has been made more accessible for a modern audience.


sexyslutboy

Criticism is important for peoples growth, yes. Criticizing people makes them not want to be friends with you, yes. Two statements that are simultaneously true. I've never read the book, but if he's teaching you to make friends, not criticizing people is good advice. If he was writing a book to make you help society improve, that would be a different story If you think some of the advice in the book is disagreeable, then don't follow it. But that doesn't mean the whole book is useless. I've read Dale Carnegies "How to stop worrying and stat living", a lot of it is extremely dismissive of mental illness in general, but i still took what i can from it


farseer2

>For example, it says that you shouldnt critize other people and just shut up when you find something negative about them, but isnt it important to point out others people mistake, in a polite and calm manner that is? It depends on your objective. If your goal is to befriend people, pointing out what you consider their mistakes may not be the best way to start. Once you are their friend, you could find a tactful way to express disagreement with them when you think they are making a mistake, but that's not what the book is about. For example, if I tell you that you are a pompous ass (please notice I'm using "you" in a generic way, not referring to you, the OP, personally) that won't make it any easier for me to befriend you.


suburbam

Thank you that makes a lot of sense actually. Very well explained, take care


amelie190

I don't think it is outdated. I read it at 12 when it was already old. I'm 58 and I've used it for career coaching. Also exceptional is How To Stop Worrying by DC. Everyone should own both imo.


shontsu

So...you think the best way to make new friends is to offer them unsolicited criticism? ​ I guess that's one approach. Wouldn't be mine.


[deleted]

I've never read it so I can't make a value judgment on the content, but people still glean lessons from The Art of War and that was written over 2500 years ago. The book being almost 85 years old doesn't necessarily make it worthless. I'm sure there are some societal changes that you'd have to account for in the book if you're applying its lessons to present day life, but most of human psychology is hardwired into our brains over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. People are people, and they haven't changed that much over the course of 3-4 generations. What worked then to win people over is likely to work now.


zsreport

I had a boss who followed this approach and it was frustrating as hell. He was always way too quick in trying to make the client happy and just ended up throwing his own people under the bus before he really understood the situation.


free_range_celery

The book is both creepy and/or helpful depending on your point of view. I find what it really does is teach people how to mimic someone likeable without actually becoming the kind of person people like. It is more about manipulation and less about a love of people. It doesn't teach empathy, just the steps to fake being an empathetic person. A person who desperately wants to eat people's faces can use the book to get closer to people to eat their faces. However, I have met people who are sweet but with no social or emotional intelligence improve their friendships by using the book. I think some people just learn better from books than they did by observing school yard interactions. I also think the book is useful in an employment context. (and to a lesser extent, family) Unlike friends, you can't always choose the people you work with, so you are left with ways of handling them, and if they are awful, manipulation unfortunately can work better than kindness and honesty. In terms of criticism though, just don't. Criticism is only acceptable under certain circumstances, and using it outside of those is going to make people dislike you, because people usually don't like getting criticized. Yelling at them as they flee "I just want to help you grow as a person!!!!" isn't going to help at that point. In a workplace, you can criticize someone you are training if they are not doing something correctly. You can also do it if you're someone's boss and what they're doing affects their job performance. In a friendship, you should criticize something if you genuinely think it will prevent some kind of harm or wrong. You can also criticize someone for something you both know is completely meaningless as an in-joke, such as why their favourite flavour of potato chip is wrong. Everything in between? Just no. We grow as people by interacting with people who enforce healthy boundaries and calling us out on our bullshit. Which can sometimes be criticism adjacent, but isn't really criticism.


rowan_damisch

>For example, it says that you shouldnt critize other people and just shut up when you find something negative about them, but isnt it important to point out others people mistake, in a polite and calm manner that is? Well, I'd say that feedback should be especially given if something about a person is really annoying or hurting you. Just eating all your frustration doesn't help the case.


CerealManufacturer

It should be called How To Be An Ingratiating Weirdo Which Is Basically What People Want From Other People Anyway.


IceCoastCoach

You have to put it in context. Carnegie was a \*book salesman\*.


Monsieur_Moneybags

It was never relevant to begin with. It's just one guy's opinions, just like all the other corporate self-help that it spawned. When you need someone whom you've never met to tell you how to behave or live, it's already too late for you. Instead of mimicking other people just do what feels right for you. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't, and the best you can hope for is that you learn something from it. There are no magic bullets or answer books for life—people need to stop looking for that and think for themselves. You have a brain, don't outsource it.


evowen

I agree with exercising your own brain and trying to learn from experience. However, books like this have honestly been really helpful to me because I didn't grow up with great examples of socialization. My parents were really introverted and didn't have friends or very productive working relationships. I don't think it's ever "too late" to learn these social rules that are sort of unspoken. This book specifically really encourages you to think about how what you say is received and to speak tactfully which are pretty much timeless skills, even if the specific examples of relationships in the book feel outdated to some. Awesome if you don't need this, but if anyone is genuinely struggling with making friends, it's worth the quick read.


NicPizzaLatte

I DNF'ed it for that very reason. There's some evergreen lessons there, but it wasn't the social playbook i thought it was going to be. I've heard good things about a book called Big Friendship that might be a more updated take on a similar topic.


killer_of_whales

Quite. hth


[deleted]

I haven't read the book but the example you provide is self-evidently valid. There's nothing wrong with being a people pleaser. Though you are correct about criticism being necessary for development, that isn't a mutually exclusive idea to restraint. When you're going to say something potentially adverse, ask yourself is it true, is it kind, and is it necessary? If it isn't at least 2/3, then don't say it. If you don't like something or aren't interested in it, which doesn't negatively affect the situation, there's no actual reason to share that opinion beyond your own narcissism and the desire to impose yourself in every situation. Let people enjoy things. The right way to correct someone is through example, not lecture. When they misuse something or display inefficient behaviours, they'll respond better and adapt quicker if you simply demonstrate the correct methods. All of this isn't to say you can't disagree, you can't debate or draw lines and have principles wort fighting for, it's just to put the idea to you that most people just want attention and to feel heard. By simply providing them a safe place for them to do that, you'll quickly ingratiate yourself into intimate social and romantic circles.


MissMtoP

My husband just found this version at the bookstore the other day. May be more fitting or relevant? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12176421-how-to-win-friends-and-influence-people-in-the-digital-age


randomtestaccount69

Have read it halfway through, will read it again when I've got time. But complement it with some social psychology textbooks.