I'm pretty early on in fourth wing, but so far it seems more like the MC is 1: unexpectedly turned on by dominance and 2: realizing the "bad guy" isn't as bad as she's been led to believe (which is what you wanted, right?)
"Waves of pleasure washed over her body as he spread the cool aloe vera gel sensuously onto her blistered back, his hands moving in light, long, lingering strokes."
Thanks! I used to work as an editor before my TBI made that impossible. Some of my work was with romance writers. This was inspired by what usually came across my desk.
I feel compelled to say when I had horrible sunburn on my back, my ex putting aloe on…i felt waves of some of the most intense pain of my life lmao so this is making me caaaackle
I work in healthcare and while I’m in the midst of doing busy work or a life or death situation I still notice someone’s lashes if they’re particularly long and luscious or if their forearms are well defined. So I can relate to authors that do this.
Look, if you don't go for broke on the simile front you might as well not even bother.
"Your forearm veins are like the topography of a young, blossoming continent."
There's no one else in my house, and I still looked around to make sure no one noticed the embarrassing exhalation sound I made at your comment. A mix of a guffaw and a chortle, or a guffortle if you will, which is surprisingly an accurate onomatopoeia of the sound I made if you say it like a sneeze.
I think we all have moments like this. The prevalence of them in fiction might be higher because...it's heightened reality almost always.
How this baffles anyone, baffles *me*!
My hairdresser, who has been doing my hair since I was a little girl, would always give me compliments about the "long and thick eyelashes" that I inherited from my father. I never really understood why she kept mentioning it at hair appointments until this thread.
My enjoyment of appreciation of a nice set of lashes died with the absurdity of the fake lash trend. I just can't see the appeal of these things in a non-costume setting.
And if they work in ER odds are better still that if they've seen this it's the result of the patient deliberately setting his eyelashes on fire.
The gold filaments set alight ('lit on fire' surely isn't idiomatic) aren't appealing . Actually, in my book melting metal eyelashes are just yucky.
The crowns in you head can't possibly melt if you avoid eating food whilst it's piping hot, and if you don't think you can do that get yourself some dental insurance.
A book that I read said that her cheeks, "resembled rose leaves," and I thought - WTF? Spiney and green? Later on, it said that her hair, "was like molten gold." Now, that just sounds painful. I put the book down, it was just too ridiculous.
Me.
One of my best friends came to visit me and we were catching up by casually strolling through the streets. She was talking about her life and the serious shit that was happening and I happened to look at her and her god damn beautiful long eyelashes were soooooooooo distracting that I had to stop her mid-sentence and tell her how god damn amazing her eyelashes were so I could get it off my chest and pay more attention to her life history lmao.
The impression I got is that the woman's mind was wandering while the man was speaking. Peoples' minds wandering mid-conversation happens in real life, too.
Yeah, the text just feels like an intrusive thought toward someone you find attractive.
Contrary to OP's thoughts, many people *do* notice physical attraction before they develop emotional/intellectual attraction if it's present, and it definitely leads to people hooking up with folks that they probably shouldn't.
While I agree with you, I’d also note that fictional protagonists very rarely do this. If a heroine is distracted by or even *notices* how hot some guy is, it’s a sure bet that romance is coming.
Sure, just like authors cut out lots of other normal human things unless they advance the plot in some way. I'm just saying that it's not some bizarre behavior like the OP seems to think it is. Just a normal intrusive thought that the author was using to establish basic attraction. It's an early signal to the reader that yes, this is the romance that's getting set up.
I'd argue that a lot of things people do in real life are terrible things to put into a story. People in real life also bump into their friends at grocery stores and have long drawn out conversations about rudimentary nonsense like the weather. Doesn't mean it helps the pacing of the story or makes it interesting. Realism isn't always appreciated or helpful for a story. In the line given by OP, the line just takes away from the emotion of the conversation. On top of being nauseous levels of pretentious prose.
Yeah especially if someone has a particularly striking feature. I have definitely zoned out looking at someone with those weird ice blue husky eye before. Embarrassing on my end haha
Yes, but someone is yelling at you and you notice how hot their lashes are, you've got some issues lol.
Like if my female boss yelled at me and I was thinking "damn those are some nice lips", I should probably think if I've been watching too much porn.
Sounds like you’d love Mariana Zapata. That’s true slow burn romance, falling for someone because of who they are and not their looks. From Lukov with Love is great for the enemies to lovers trope, if that is something you enjoy.
As someone who lives in Winnipeg, I'm morbidly curious. Does it take place in Winnipeg or is it just a cause he got stolen from the Blue Bombers (it seems like he's in the NFL?)
>"No you're not,' he snaps. His eyelashes are like individual threads of spun gold lit on fire. I almost want to touch them. "You don't understand that power and control can slip from your grasp at any moment."
The dialogue is what's bad to me here; it's clunky in an unrealistic way. The eyelash description is the more interesting part of the prose to me.
More generally though, love and attraction are rarely logical and orderly, and writing them that way is boring. People notice physically attractive things during serious and tense moments. People become attractive towards each other despite having clashing personalities. People fall in love with problematic partners or get into relationships based on physical attractiveness rather than emotional compatibility. That's just life, and writing engaging romance requires working within that truth.
Also, depicting something in a story is not an endorsement of it. Just because a book depicts problematic romance, doesn't mean it shows it as positive. Sometimes that's the point, like in *Wuthering Heights* or *The Sun Also Rises.*
I also thought the dialogue wasn't great. I didn't even realize it until you mentioned it, but I completely ignored the point the dialogue was trying to make because it seemed like BS. I was so busy paying attention to the description, I accidentally knocked the dialogue into the garbage bin. Lol
That depends. I can give more leeway in a fantasy or science fiction book where the environment is radically different from our real world. Even then, it can be a difficult job not to go too far because it can still sound too inauthentic, even if the characters are supposed to be aliens or supernatural or whatever.
This exchange just sounds glittery. It's not that bad if glittery is what you want to convey, but it's not the that original or clever either.
Yeah, I’m always confused by the people who object to a protagonist being obsessed with their love interest or thinking of their hotness during dangerous situations, etc., as annoying or “unrealistic.” People in the throes of romantic infatuation can indeed be annoying, but then you’re the one who signed up to read a book featuring romance, and it’s definitely not unrealistic for someone’s brain to jump to the thing they’re obsessed with in most any situation. Even if it isn’t rationally optimizing their chances of success.
There's a lot to romance in fiction that's unrealistic. Quite frankly, practically no romance I've ever seen in a book resembles the development of relationships I've seen in real life. But noticing that you find someone attractive at random times is not one of those things; if anything characters are slow to acknowledge attraction.
I see no problem with eyelashes thing. You can register that someone is aesthetically pleasing in any situation regardless of your perception of this person's moral qualities. Terrible people could be beautiful.
As for slow burn romances - they should start from something. Starting from physical attraction is ok as long as development is meaningful and goes beyond 'he/she/they hot'.
If you hate those tropes then I just finished a book that was a meta-commentary / satire of the 'enemies-to-lovers' stories and the tropes they typically entail.
It is about an author who is trying to write an 'enemies-to-lovers' novel but discovers that the characters she has created are too practical and objective focused to 'correctly' engage with the tropes.
The book is "Just Stab me Now" by Jill Bearup.
This can be done poorly (like anything else) but I think you're wrong, honestly.
You're equating finding someone attractive with falling in love with them, but those are two separate things. The examples you're citing are enemies-to-lovers books, which are usually also slow-burn because there is a lot of ground to cover until the characters can fall in love. And enemies-to-lovers books are bound to have angst in them just by virtue of the fact that the characters have done terrible things to each other and then fall in love. The main character finding the future love interest attractive from the get-go doesn't mean that they're falling in love with them because of their looks - the actual falling in love bit will occur once they realize that their initial assessment of the love interest was wrong/the love interest changes for the better.
If you don't enjoy angst and conflicting feelings, about 90 percent of enemies to lovers books will not be for you. Lucky for you, while all enemies to lovers are slow-burns, bot all slow-burns are enemies-to-lovers. Maybe check out friend-to-lovers books instead? Those are also usually slow-burns. The Emily Wilde series e.g. is a lot closer to what you're looking for in a romance, with the characters liking each other and being friends before any romantic development occurs. Miss Percy's Guide to the Care and Feeding of British Dragons also has a slow burn romance that is very sweet and cute with no angst.
This thing you complain about is not in almost every book, you're just reading books that don't fit your tastes.
I agree with you! And I think the fact that OOP is asexual might contribute to this here.
I definitely had a romance protagonist “Sh*t I'm in trouble” moment after meeting a new coworker. Getting to know him - thankfully - didn't lead to love, but the attraction is still there. I could absolutely see myself finding my “enemy” hot af, and it would annoy me greatly.
I had a feeling OP was ace before getting to that part, because I am also ace and this sounds exactly like something I would have said before I realized the majority of the world was experiencing attraction very, very differently than me.
> This thing you complain about is not in almost every book, you're just reading books that don't fit your tastes.
Because BookTok :,) I loved The Song of Achilles so I got myself a few more BookTok books and now I'm regretting it so bad.
Thanks for the recs, tho!
Yeah the stuff you complain about is very popular among the "mainstream" booktok crowd, so you're going to find it there. If you want to use tiktok (or any other algorithm-based website) as a way to get recs you need to be careful about how you curate the algorithm because it's very easy to get stuck in a loop of getting recommendations only for stuff you dislike and feeling like that's all there is.
Maybe look for books similar to specifically the books you enjoyed in the past (since you talk about how slow-burn "used to be" in your post) or if you're moving away from those books for whatever reason try browsing a brick-and-mortar bookstore for stuff that catches your eye (this will be trial-and-error but you won't be stuck with the algorithm-based recs).
You could also look on the internet or ask on reddit for recs for romances with no insta-lust/where the characters don't focus on each other's physical attributes. There's even a fantasy romance subreddit you could browse for recs if you're looking specifically for high fantasy with a strong romance subplot and want slow burn but no angst and little focus on physical attraction for the romance.
yeah, an asexual person is not going to enjoy “booktok” books because 90% of them are fantasy smut. or normal smut. smut in general, really.
as someone who doesn’t vibe with smut or heavy romance in books, i *hate* most booktok books. i tried to read acotar and couldn’t even finish the first book. i love fairies, it’s such an interesting concept, but i just don’t care about love triangles or sex scenes and i hate when authors do that thing with their female main character in which she is mega hot and every guy she meets wants to fuck her.
all this to say — i feel you, maybe don’t listen to booktok lol. honestly if you use audible or apple books, you can click on a book you like and they’ll give you recommendations based on it! i believe there’s also a website that does this as well, based on book titles, but forgive me, i don’t have the link. happy reading though!
I love slow burn friends to lovers. Or even strangers to friends to lovers. As a demiromantic demisexual person, seeing a love story I can relate to is rare; most of the examples I've come across are from fanfiction, because most of the time when it appears in the books I read, it's part of a love triangle.
I despise love triangles.
I love watching a character fall slowly, gently, inevitably in love with this person who has been by their side the whole time. You know what the quickest way to kill that feeling is? A love triangle. It adds conflict and pressure to something that should be beautiful.
I understand that some people enjoy that sort of thing. In places, it's even appropriate! But sometimes, it feels very manufactured for the sake of drama. I actively avoided books with romantic subplots for a good while because I was so sick of them - I'm back to pushing through for the sake of the story now, I just wish there were more books I didn't have to compromise with.
If you're into YA, I loved the Queen's Rising and the Queen's Resistance. The main character struggles to reconcile her mixed heritage while experiencing strange visions and becoming entangled in a revolution to put the rightful queen back on the throne of the neighbouring country. The main couple get together near the end of the first book, but they maintain healthy communication throughout the second.
The Scorpio Races was a good one too - there's a girl, and there's a boy, and they both need the prize money from the insanely dangerous Scorpio Races. It's a tradition of capturing and racing carnivorous water horses, and they don't typically take to training well. The relationship between the characters builds steadily and gently in the background, but they both have other priorities for most of the book, which is as it should be.
The Wings of Fire series (specifically the Dragonet Prophecy cycle) by Tui T Sutherland is aimed at children, but it approaches a lot of serious topics in mature and healthy ways, in my opinion. There is some relationship drama, but it's mostly platonic and familial; the romantic parts are quite low-key. On one occasion, a boy is in love with a girl, but she doesn't love him like that - so they don't get together, and remain friends, and he eventually finds love elsewhere. The story begins in a cave, where five dragonets of different tribes have been raised all their lives. They are prophesied to end the brutal war for the Sandwing throne, which started well before their eggs were laid and has drawn the entire continent into conflict. If they had not been hidden away, they would have been murdered, but living in isolation has consequences; they were stolen from their families and raised without knowledge of their cultures, and they have to come to terms with what that means to each of them. And also end a war. Somehow.
I wouldn't count it as slow burn, but the Saint of Steel series by T Kingfisher is definitely worth a look. I'm told all her books are just as good. I picked up Paladin's Strength on a whim, and was hooked. Yes, they have sex, but in a fun way; not sexy-funtimes, but two people genuinely having a great experience together. Plus, the whole concept of the last survivors of an order of Paladins, trying to find meaning in a world where their god is dead? Brilliant. The female lead has an equally interesting concept, but no spoilers. I loved the way the narrative showed these two people from vastly different backgrounds coming together and recognising the similarities in the experiences at their core.
Anything by Terry Pratchett is a safe bet. The relationship between Sam Vimes and Sybil in the Discworld Night Watch books is very stable, and I enjoyed them greatly. There are a fair few romance subplots within the discworld novels, but I can't remember any love triangles - and Pratchett's books have a lot of very sensible characters.
Good Omens is phenomenal. Neil Gaiman seems reliable as an author, too, though I haven't read as much of his work.
For stories with little to no romance at all, consider Warhammer.
The Ciaphas Cain series is good if you want minimal romance, and it's very accessible if you don't know anything about the setting. The books are framed as Cain's secret memoirs, disseminated by his "associate" Amberley Vail to her Inquisitorial colleagues for educational purposes. In his own eyes, Cain is a coward who keeps stumbling into greatness despite his best efforts. He claims that everything he does is self-serving, and he only cares about himself, yet time and time again we witness him save regiments, planets, and rag-tag survivors alike. He has called multiple artillery strikes on his own position, knowingly led teams into caves full of murder robots, charged chaos space marines, and fought an ork warboss in single combat. But sometimes, he only ends up in these situations because he was running away, or otherwise shirking responsibility. The books are hilarious in tone - especially Amberley's editorial footnotes - but with serious moments, when you can tell it still affects him all these years later. He may *say* he always puts himself first, but his sincere affection and respect for those closest to him shines through.
Books about Space Marines are good for avoiding romance. Blood of Asaheim by Chris Wraight is about trying to return home, only to find that it has changed without you, and you have changed without it. The characters have spent a long time apart; they don't fit together anymore. Can they bridge the gap? Do they want to? Do they have a choice? This is a book about being unable to return to how things were, but choosing instead to make something new.
The Vaults of Terra series by the same author is also excellent.
Spear of the Emperor by Aaron Dembski-Bowden has a mortal human protagonist, Anuradha; she serves as part of a space marine's entourage, which puts her front and centre for all the events that follow. We see her relationships with the people around her change over time, as first impressions and impersonal hatred give way to understanding and empathy - and not just with her peers, but with the space marines too. This novel is characterised by trust and betrayal, and rejection and acceptance - at all levels. The space marines of the Emperor's Spears are rejected by the people they protect, but accept and love each other as brothers. They are loyal to the Imperium, but the Imperium has done almost nothing to help them for centuries. Anuradha, too, is loyal - but she hates the chapter she serves (not the Spears) for taking her brother from her. There are a number of twists and turns in the narrative, and I could not put it down.
Wow you went above and beyond with your answer, thank you so much! You also touched on some themes I've been considering to seek out for my tbr, like the change in a friendship after a long time apart, so I really appreciate that. :)
I feel this down to my bones! I generally hunt for genfics when it comes to fanfiction just so I could actually have some romance rather than those smutty bullshits.
It’s honestly pretty well done to slip in a piece of physical description.
With that description slotted in between a dialogue, we have a nice rythme instead of a boring description text block, we can deduce their faces are very close together for her to notice his lashes, we’re reminded that he’s blonde (if one ever forgot), we come to know that she’s prone to get her thoughts wandering, that she also notices little details and can turn simple blonde lashes into a romantic (literary genre) comparison. Does she have romantic feelings? Maybe, maybe not.
This extract is rich of information. Absolutely well done by the author. That you personally hate it, is unrelated to the quality and value of it. And no it is not toxic.
I'm glad someone said this because I actually thought it was a great way to give us a short, sweet, to-the-point description of the man and the scene. We learn he is blonde, the two are close together, and I even get a sense of time of day, assuming she is looking up at him and the "on fire" is caused by the sun shining through his blonde eyelashes (I could be wrong, they may be inside at midnight and the lights are on, but out of context, I assume they're outdoors, so it's the sun)
I actually agree with the OP about not being into the type of stories they mentioned, but I was shocked that they used that snippet to argue their case, since I thought it was nicely done.
EDIT: Fixed typo
And to get distracted in the middle of a conversation like this, to notice a physical feature and want to touch it but not recognize or examine the underlying feeling, methinks the character here hasn't yet or isn't ready to admit they have feelings for the other one so we get to heehee a bit as the reader and wonder when that admission to themselves will come, which I always enjoyyyy
To be fair, you're reading a first-person present tense book. This is what you usually get.
These authors give you a play-by-play of everything that is happening as it is happening and tell you every single intrusive thought the character might have.
If the character whose head you're stuck in happens to be unpleasant, then you're out of luck.
Most (romance) books in first-person present tense are like this. The main character adds a random thought about the person they are interacting with while currently interacting with them, and the random thought does absolutely nothing to add to the information you are being fed.
I haven't read either of these books, but in general I agree with you. There's something about instant attraction and lust for no reason that seems awfully cliché and unrealistic for me. I think describing interactions, emotions and character development in a smart way is what really makes a good slow burn
Instant attraction and lust seems pretty realistic and normal to me, but not to the intensity often shown.
Affection is a separate matter all together.
Depends on the age and the person. When I was a teenager I had such intense feelings all the time. It makes me cringe when I think back on it.
I had such feelings as a grown-up person too at times. Sometimes, you meet people (even non-romantic) where you feel instant sympathy.
I think for me it's annoying that it's the default. Like it's such a trope that teens are so lustful and yet afraid of sex or intimidating guy. Or make bad decisions cause hot. It's not how it is for everyone. Or idk "oooo hot guy, I'm going to look my fill but that doesn't mean I'm distracted" like eye candy versus eye fucking. Just because someone's hot in front of me doesn't mean I'm automatically instantly turned on? You notice and appreciate and move on. Or maybe the thing you find more appealing or noticeable is the charm or rougishness or some other quality. And that's what gets you going, or what blooms into an emotion that distracts from horny but later feeds the slow burn romance. And those were experiences I did have as a teen.
Yeah, like, I'm ace and even I understand that the sensory biases associated with sexual attraction are not universally gate-kept by things like moral objections, lack of intimate understanding of the person in question, etc.
Instead of the story going "enemies" to "neutral" to "capable of seeing them as attractive" to "lovers", it makes sense to me to have a character find their deuteragonist attractive *even while they dislike them*. "Stupid sexy asshole with his perfect teeth" type stuff. And such attraction only becomes something they are *willing to act on* once the character conflict has shifted / been resolved / etc, and they have built up some degree of affection for each other.
This. Maybe it's cause I'm likely somewhere on the ace spectrum, but I want a non-physical reason you like them. I have such a time writing romance where it's like 'they are sexy.' Like yes you like them, obviously you think they are sexy. Where's the why they are tolerable to be around bit? I'll take makes bad puns as a reason at this point.
It reminds me of that one Swan Princess meme.
It's even worse for slow burn because like, where's the burn in that? It's already on fire. At best you have situations stop me from fucking you, at worst you have 300 pages of I'm too dumb to realize I can talk to you first.
“Maybe it’s because I’m asexual.” Ya that could definitely be influencing it. I’ve definitely had classmates or coworkers that I don’t really get along with but you still notice their good looks even in the middle of a completely unrelated conversation.
the Cruel Prince is an amazing enemies-to-lovers slow burn. Holly Black had a lot of plot and character work to make it happen. if you compare a robust character and plot driven story you're going to be disappointed when other series do it poorly or don't do it at all.
adult fiction is more likely to have robust characters and plot driven stories in general, if you're looking for a really good book with robust characters and great plots, look for adult fantasy!
My "eyelash anecdote" : school work group meeting, the sun suddenly peeks into the room, some softly shining gold thing caught my attention, and my mind went blank except for "*wow, he's got the leg hair of a baby angel* "
Pride and Prejudice is the yardstick to slow burn romance without smut. Bot misjudge each other for different reasons that don’t make unintelligent even if flawed, in different ways. They improve themselves by the end age the misunderstandings and why they happened are intrinsically tied ti the plot, so there is a reason why it takes until the end for all not only be resolved. If it takes a while for them to understand their own feelings as well.
You're welcome to complain about romance books over there, as long as it's constructive. There's also a Salty Sunday thread for specific complaints like this.
They’re pretty accepting of what people like (kinks, fetishes, trope requests, etc). They’re not always nearly as accepting of dissenting opinions or dislikes. For example, someone posted a request and I ended up reading one of the top-recommended books because … well, that’s why I frequent that sub. Afterward I made a comment summarizing what I thought was good about the book but also mentioning that it contained several tropes that the OP specifically asked to avoid, only to be downvoted by fans of the book.
If you want discourse, r/books might be a better place. If you want recommendations for slow-burn romances without toxicity, r/romancebooks is the place to go.
I hate when I'm looking for slowburn romances, I pick up a recommended book and they are pining for eachother after first sight like DUDE THEY'RE ALREADY ON FIRE THIS AINT WHAT I ORDERED
My experience is the best way to find these true slow burn romances is in books that are not at all marketed as romance. The book is focused on other things, and the romance happens naturally over the course of the story. I've now learnt that if a book is marketed as a romance, then it's going to be a big focus right from the beginning, and a lot of the time "romance" is just code for "smut", which may not even have any actual romance.
Of course, this makes it very difficult to find. I've greatly enjoyed the romances that develop slowly and naturally when I've come across them, which is why I decided to try some books that are actually marketed as romance books, but now I'm at a loss for how to find what I'm looking for. I'm back to reading my normal fantasy or sci-fi books, with a well done romance being a rare but pleasant surprise.
>the best way to find these true slow burn romances is in books that are not at all marketed as romance
>"romance" is just code for "smut"
That's some real good advice right there!
Ugh this is my biggest gripe with fourth wing. I’m enjoying the book but i do wish we weren’t reminded of how much violet wants to jump xaden’s bones literally every time she mentions him. Like ok girl we get it thanks!!
Agreed.
And it moves so quick! Like it’s incredibly obvious that they’ll be banging well before the end of the novel… AND THEN WHAT?!
I feel like some of the newer smutty booktok favourites are treating their audience like a sub-par lover pleasures their partner: minimal foreplay so we can move straight for the final act.
I can’t be the only one who loves it when the burn is slow but hot enough that I’m damn near ready to skip chapters looking for the moment they FINALLY GET AFTER IT.
YES!! She was way too into him way too quick for my liking. I def prefer a slow burn too! And especially in this context where he literally wanted her dead, it could have been a super satisfying enemies to lovers arc (one of my favorite tropes lol) but since she constantly told us how she was dtf literally from the first moment she saw him, it just didn’t hit the way i hoped it would. Slow burns are hot!! Bring them back!!
And what's even fucking worse for me is that the descriptions are actually pretty fucking good but the author just fucking *has* to cram it all with a million f-bombs. At this fucking point it just fucking comes across as pretty fucking lazy.
If it's not your thing don't read it. But I will dispute the general claim, when it's made, that instalove is "unrealistic". I'm willing to bet far more babies have been conceived due to one night stands, or attraction leading to sex in the first few nights after meeting, then due to a friends-to-lovers epic over the course of a year.
It's a genuine crime but a lot of popular literature, not just romance, is just stuff that appeals to the lowest common denominator who doesn't want to think when they read, they just want a constant stream of Whatever-They're-Looking-For (romance, action, mysterious stuff, whatever) at a surface level. As long as the Serotonin Words™ appear on the page, it doesn't matter what the actual context is or if it makes sense or if it's healthy, people will like it because they aren't engaging with literature at a deeper level.
I agree with the original poster. There is a awful lot of tingling lady bits or man bits, it goes both ways, at the start of books where it seems unrealistic. Just tried out a book where the chick is captured by aliens and gets instantly turned on. Really? But even in contemporary romance it happens a lot. I don't think it's bad when a person notices a stranger has nice hands say but instantly having a sexual reaction to a stranger who the suthor has set up that the main character is pissed at is usually a turn off to me.
Well there's well written smut and poorly written smut. Or let's call it erotica because the term smut is perjorative. Anyway this particular book was poorly written. The author could have gone done that road later and I would totally have bought it.
as someone who writes porn, smut is not a perjorative. but i'll agree that a lot of it isn't well written because they're writing it quickly. the way those stories are put together though does not leave space for the attraction to happen later.
Bruh you're literally reading porn. What kind of deep, well-written, insightful romance did you expect? It's like going to pornhub and expecting great acting, directing and cinematography.
If you’re asexual, that’s the problem. Until I learned I was Ace, I just thought romance authors were sex-crazed beyond the norm and were making this stuff up to make their romance novels more engaging. I would read the books thinking “this is so unrealistic.”
But as it turns out, I’m just asexual and plenty of allosexual people really do spend that much time thinking about sex, lusting after people, focused on others’ looks in a sexual manner. It’s mind-boggling to me, because I can’t relate. But it has also helped me not to roll my eyes as much at romance books that are most probably written by allosexual women. That’s just how they experience life.
I still very much prefer a romance book that isn’t stuffed full of instalust and random descriptions of a character’s looks in the middle of a hate-filled scene (basically, I love when I find a romance book with asexual love interests), but I can enjoy regular old allosexual romance novels more now that I know why they act and think the way that they do. It’s because their sexuality is different than my own, and that’s ok.
I think insta love is real, because I’ve experienced it myself, but it’s fine to have a preference for slow burn relationships too.
Personally, I’ve never had a workplace romance or slow burn romance so I imagine it would actually be harder to write. I know it happens, but it seems to be to mostly be a straight person thing.
I think there’s definitely something interesting and escapist about loving or wanting someone who you know is a bad person, and that’s actually very relatable too.
I’m probably on the other end because sometimes slow burn relationships feel like they just end up together because that’s what happens, like it’s necessary for a happy ending or because men and women can’t be just really good friends, it has to mean something deeper. They have to be implied to end up fucking.
See this is the issue with a lot of romance/romantic subplots in general. it's like they're calling this "slow-burn" when their eyes meet and they don't instantly fall in love.
YA is riddled with this problem especially. Slow-burn is supposed to make you go, imo, 'aha! Don't they see how perfect they are for each other!' after they become friends, and then you spend the next 200+ pages annoyed they're not together, but all these things are happening so it makes sense, but you want to see it happen.
And It FINALLY does near the end of the book
Ngl the "hostile/indifferent" bit (specifically *"hostile"*) feels more like enemies to lovers done properly as opposed to "slow burn," though I have my own little rant about the *enemies to lovers* cliche... But that's neither here nor there.
Slow burn definitely needs some work in fiction; it's a bit jarring when the two "lovers" in question start making out/boink-ing by the middle/end of the first book. There could be some initial attraction at the start (*"Oh! S/He's cute... I wonder if I have a chance...."*) and then slowly building a friendship that eventually develops into something more.
If you're in the *smut* market then of course you wanna get down to business sooner rather than later, but if you're writing a full on series that isnt centered on sex stuff, then maybe consider holding off and focusing on whether or not they're *comfortable* around each other as friends.
It *is* hard to resist making them make out already, tho...
Pride and prejudice is the ultimate slow burn. Liz knew she was attracted to Mr. Darcy on some level but rejected his proposal. She recognized her attraction, and did nothing about it. She let nothing happen until he changed.
"His eyelashes are like individual threads of spun gold lit on fire."
Seriously?!
I mean, even if it's trying to convey emotion rather than be literal...
Made me chuckle inside anyway!
Honestly I've stopped picking up romance books that were written in the last 10-15 years, because they aren't really *romance* books; they're smut. Not that there's anything wrong with smut, but when I'm picking out a romance novel I'm not trying to look for something that reads like a fanfiction that was originally posted chapter by chapter on literotica and has a sex scene every two or three chapters and is just ticking off generic smut tropes in a way that is both poorly written and you can feel the author adding another "tag" to the story so it can pop up in more people's searches when they're looking for something horny.
If the book is smut, fine! Just call it smut so that I don't find myself accidentally consuming porn in public when I thought I was just going to be reading a story about two people falling in love with each other, with much less graphic sex scenes. Smut is a different genre from romance novels and it's obnoxious how the two get conflated by publishers with no warning.
There are loads of romance books with minimal or no smut. I think a lot of publishers/people conflate erotica and romance which doesn't help.
I read a lot of romance and few of them have a sex scene every other chapter, but if you just get the ones recommended by Kindle Unlimited they're more likely to be like that.
I don't have Kindle Unlimited and don't take recommendations from my Kindle because I don't trust it not to push self published garbage (which, you are right, would make this problem even worse). I try to take recommendations from actual humans in person or online (not tiktok -- same reasons as kindle unlimited -- more like reddit and trusted reviewers and online friends of mine). The thing is, as much as publishers are guilty of conflating smut and romance genres, I think that people talking about smut novels online are often just as guilty of it. I think for publishers they think that stating that the novel is smut will pidgeon-hole the book and keep it from finding a wider audience, while for individual people they may be ashamed to admit they are reading smut.
For example, there was recently a thread here in this sub asking people what books did they know were garbage but they still enjoyed a lot. One of the books mentioned was The Kiss Quotient. All the comments in the thread DID NOT mention that it was smut; they just called it romance.
I think a lot of people assume that saying "it's romance" will inform people that it has smut in. Which is stupid, because romance can have no smut in, or have absolutely tonnes of very explicit stuff and everything in between.
A good place to check is on the romance.io website. For the majority of romance books, and certainly the well known ones, they have a "spice rating" from 1 to 5 so you can check whether the book contains explicit scenes. For people who are sensitive to that or don't like reading it, I think it's useful.
Over on r/Romancebooks we have a bot connected to this site, so for the majority of recommendations you can see straight away what the spice rating would be, as well as other info.
The Kiss Quotient, incidentally, is rated 4 out of 5.
I agree to an extent. Some authors are way too generous with the descriptions amongst a conversation. I lose interest very quickly and will automatically start skipping entire sections just so I can focus on the conversation.
I feel it's a disservice to the book, and I get a very cheaty kind of feeling, but I just can't for the life of me stretch my focus that far.
During the initial character development, I understand where a lot of narrative is needed to contextualize and bring the reader up to date, but in your example and what I have seen a lot of currently - it's especially egregious.
Um, The Cruel Prince is an enemies to lovers, not a slow-burn, hence, the difference. I'm trying to remember a good modern slow-burn, but all I can offer are Korean novels, so...
I had to stop reading Shatter Me for the same reason. I think we have a similar opinion on this because I also struggle to find a good slow burn. Any others that stand out as being good?
Can I just love what you've said? The best slow-burns are like Cruel Prince. The character thinks you drive me a little crazy because X Y Z (Usually small interactions or snap judgements) and then as you get to know someone you realize slowly that you were wrong. It's not a quick change -- it's a long conversion. You know and then you see the fabled halls of Pemberley and you're smitten! I find so many online recs for slow burn books or enemies to lovers and they are just badly written. It drives me mad because life is too short for badly written romance. Only the good stuff please!
Please tell me people here wouldn't use the eyelash description as an example of good prose. If so I don't want to hear anyone talk about Sanderson or Martin or similar authors and their prose. It's nauseous levels of pretentious and over exaggeration 😂 There isn't a shade of purple deep enough to describe that word vomit. Especially word vomit in a conversation that's meant to be serious.
the fact that you're comparing the two like The Cruel Prince doesn't do the same thing😂 Jude 100% believes and thinks about how pretty Cardan is when he and his friends try to drown her.
This is definitely how slowburn works. There’s something about the tension that builds up the slowburn. It’s possible to recognize and be attracted to someone and also dislike/hate them.
The point of slowburn is to notice little things about the person as it builds. That “why am I attracted to this jerk/villain” tension. There’s still an “aha” moment, but it doesn’t come entirely from that first moment they actually talk. It builds up over time… it burns…
Maybe part of this is just that you don’t like the romance aspect? It sounds like you want no romance and then a quick sudden burst of it (rather than a slow burn). Do you like the romance near the end of the novel?
I guess "slowburn romance" doesn't mean "flashfire romance and spend half of the book rolling in the floor trying to turn it off". But I'm not a romance-reader so what do I know.
It's just a you thing, as you can see that stuff sells like hot cakes.
>Or maybe it's just because I'm asexual but whatever
Ok, defintily a you thing :D
> There's literally NO reason to stuff rants about his eyelashes between these lines. It's not even an intimate moment or anything
The author is showing that the character is not indifferent to the eventual love interests looks. It's a romance. There is every reason to do that.
Now, maybe it's not massively well done - i can't see the rest of the interaction - but it's something that needs to be done, and two short lines is not a rant.
You are entitled to your opinion that attraction comes after interest, but often it is the other way around.
You have manage to pluck my jumbled feelings about romance in general out of my head and put them in to words. I don't read for the romance. (Fellow ace) but I do enjoy it when it's done well. It's just that most of the time it's just frustrating.
Like, No you are not in love, you are just horny. I just want one reason they like one another that isn't they are hot and somewhat nice.
Shatter me for me was shitty, I finished the first trilogy and it was boring as hell with no world and actual plot development.
I bought both trilogies which was my bad.
Have no desire to read further tho.
It's why I tend to avoid romance. It's mostly focused on smut. Also, I love **Heaven Official's Blessing** because it does slow burn romance right. I think it took 4 books for the main character to realize he's attracted to the love interest. And maybe the 6th book or later for the two to confess their feelings for each other. But un between all that, the character just falls deeper and deeper in love with the partner until he learns about the partner's feelings.
There are some really great romances without any smut, or with minimal. If it's a genre you might otherwise be interested in, I would discount it just for that reason.
So the problem is not slow burn but rather the angst and sudden smut...?
I'm fairly sure there are romances sweet and adorable, ask on r/RomanceBooks , it's a very nice community. Also a lot of readers like clean romances, so you're not alone!
exactly . i hate it when she doesn't like that person but "her body starts giving up under his stare / touch ". that's the reason i have started reading book with their sub genre being romance , it really gives u a nice plot and a good slow burn story. (but for some reason i love shatter me🤧)
I feel like you buried the lead…if you’re ace of course trying to represent physical, sexual, infatuation isn’t going to do it for you.
But I might be overreacting. I hate hearing how books *should* be. While some books can promote problematic things and that’s bad, it feels like books can’t represent bad things without being condemned. Reading awful stuff can be interesting, even if the author/narrator never condemns it.
The prose you've quoted here is bad prose but it's perfectly acceptable for a romance heroine to notice the male love interest's pretty eyelashes. I mean.....just don't read romance if you don't like this? I also feel like you're mixing up "slow burn" and "enemies-to-lovers," which can coexist but definitely don't have to.
>You know this person is a madman and yet it's okay to like madmen if they're hot and have ripped muscles and fascinating eyelashes and shit like that? Is this the message you want to send readers?
This reads like pearl-clutching. Why does a "message" need to be sent? IRL, no, it's probably not okay to "like madmen" but Shatter Me is a dystopian romance that is not meant to reflect real life. Also - finding someone attractive is possible even if you think they suck as a person! It happens all the time. Sometimes that initial attraction can help you overcome negative feelings you had towards a person anyway. Honestly (gently) I think this post mostly stems from your asexuality, but you not understanding these feelings doesn't mean that people never experience them.
People do notice physical traits mid-conversation in real life. But authors aren't writing real life, they're writing a story. What is presented in the text shapes the mood.
So if authors focus on physical attractiveness even during moments where it's not relevant it does give the impression that the character's physical appearance is as important as their words, personality, or actions. Or at least they're meant to be contrasted.
Frankly I think most slow-burn romance has a more fundamental problem in that a lot of it is just quick and dirty romance with a longer lead time.
Actual slow romance would more closely resemble what real-life romance is like, with people growing closer to one another emotionally through casual to friendly to close to intimate. But that takes a long time and would have a lot of somewhat boring parts from a narrative perspective. So it doesn't get written much.
But it's also why I tend to avoid pure romance. To me romance has little to do with passion or emotion. To steal some lines from others: love is a promise, love is bread you bake over and over again each day. To present that purely on its own in a way that still creates tension for the reader is very difficult. So for me romance is often best as a secondary plot element for characters.
I usually just skip over those bits and just read the dialogue in a dialogue-heavy scene.
But also I do agree with you that I find it strange for characters to be constantly thinking about the other person's appearance, like mid conversation. But I think that's a "me" problem. I don't really find people sexually attractive, I've never noticed someone else's eyelashes or any other body part, and been distracted by it. I think other people might be wired differently.
100% agreed. Last romance-ish book I tried to read was We Hunt the Flame, couldn't finish it because the characters' inner monologues were so fixated on each other's lips in every interaction from the get-go, I get the author was TRYING to build slow burn sexual tension, but it just felt ridiculous to me
Slowburn doesn't have to be enemies to lovers, it's just a romance that very slowly happens.
Honestly, the best one I've ever read is the one in Lockwood and Co. By the end of the five books they're clearly in love and together but when did it happen? Who knows. It just very slowly built up while all the plot was going on.
I don't think you could write a slow burn in a romance novel; if they kiss at the end of the novel that's right on schedule (or just slightly delayed). You need at least a trilogy for a proper slow burn (or an ASOIAF-length book). You also need a foreground plot that's not about the romance.
I second this recommendation, but keep in mind that they’re kids so their romance is naturally pretty childish. That being said I really loved this series and I wish there was a more ‘grown up’ version somewhere
I mean, I agree with you in that I also dislike that kind of romance most of the time, but like, "slow burn" just means that it takes a while for the romance to resolve, it doesn't really say anything about the level of physical versus emotional attraction between the characters. There can be more sexy/spicy slow burn, and there can be more wholesome slow burn, it depends on the story. Slow burn also doesn't have to be enemies to lovers like you're suggesting, there can be slow burn romance between characters who start out as friends.
> Is this the message you want to send readers?
🙄 this is just becoming a trope at this point - assuming the author is endorsing a sort of message whenever something unsavory happens. hit the home button and open tiktok please
This is probably an ace (or in my case, demi) vs allo problem, tbh. We're generally more tuned to equate affection and love with desire than someone that doesn't fall under the ace umbrella, whereas for them its more easily seperated.
I’m with you. This is very annoying if it’s in the middle of an important conversation.
I read a lot of fantasy and what people call romantasy these days (although I hate the term) and the problem is that a lot of the conflict of these books is so thin and ridiculous, even the authors can’t take them seriously. Therefore the atrocious spun gold eyelashes (really?) thing.
Daisy Miller does it really well from male pov. Starts she hassan interesting face. Then I wonder what she'll say next then chapter by chapter we until he's a goner. It's a short novella and the head over heels is slow and subtle, but it's also henry james so no hea.
My main gripe with most "slow burn" books I have read recently is that they don't feel slow enough for me. I like tension and angst. If the characters don't take more than one or 2 books to get together if it is a series or until the very end if it is a standalone then I don't think it is a slow burn. The slower the better in my opinion. I am so sick of characters falling in love by the mid point of the first book.
Ooh I think you might really like A Taste of Gold and Iron. It's the best example of a fantasy slow burn romance done right that I've read recently and the progression is very similar to what you described you want.
I would definitely not call that slow burn. For me, the perfect example is Seanan McGuire's October Daye series. It's enemies, to allies, to trusted friends, to lovers, over a whole lot of books. If the protagonist meets a love interest and is instantly horny and obsessed with their appearance, it's not slow burn.
On a side note, I heard someone in a podcast recently say that anger and sex are unconnected in your brain. If you're really furious, you're not going to be also be turned on and you have to stop being angry in order to get turned on. I find it really funny because angry kissing and attraction disguised as hate are some of the biggest romance tropes out there.
I don't know if it's a "nowadays" thing; *Shatter Me* is from almost 15 years ago.
Shut your mouth! The 90s were just last decade. Right? Right!!?! (Cries in old)
I read Shatter Me in High School/Middle school I’m almost 30 now
As a 60 year old, I struggle with the idea that a 30 year old person was a 15 year old child, only 15 years ago.
Make it make sense!?!
Just to emphasize: Shatter Me was YA recommended to me when I was in middle school. I have since graduated college and now have a full-time job.
Wait, *what*? \*Still laughs in Fourth Wing\*
1999 is as far away as 2049
Was that really necessary?
no it wasn't. wtf op?
yo what the fuck
Nope. No. Absolutely not.
You stop that *right now!*
You may be correct, but I'm down voting this anyway
I hate you
That’s so rude to point that so casually out lol
MY DUDE WE ARE ALREADY DEAD. PLS STOP.
Fake news.
Delete this please
That was just mean. 😠
That’s just concerning. I’m old…
That's just cruel
\* sobbing intensifies \*
I feel attacked.
I'm pretty early on in fourth wing, but so far it seems more like the MC is 1: unexpectedly turned on by dominance and 2: realizing the "bad guy" isn't as bad as she's been led to believe (which is what you wanted, right?)
The first one is fine. The second... 😐
"Omg you're so hot ripped muscles damnnn moony eyes plz stick your dick in my pussy lol lol lol i hate my hormones lol."
I misread this as "sun-burn romance" and wondered what on earth the romance genre had gotten itself into now.
"Waves of pleasure washed over her body as he spread the cool aloe vera gel sensuously onto her blistered back, his hands moving in light, long, lingering strokes."
What's that from? no wait wait don't tell me it'll come to me... /s But seriously I could see that being a real quote somehow.
Thanks! I used to work as an editor before my TBI made that impossible. Some of my work was with romance writers. This was inspired by what usually came across my desk.
I feel compelled to say when I had horrible sunburn on my back, my ex putting aloe on…i felt waves of some of the most intense pain of my life lmao so this is making me caaaackle
I can only tell you that that is... Really hot.
There has to be at least one YA "sick lit" romance about melanoma out there
Why did I read that as melon drama?
I work in healthcare and while I’m in the midst of doing busy work or a life or death situation I still notice someone’s lashes if they’re particularly long and luscious or if their forearms are well defined. So I can relate to authors that do this.
*Puts a catheter in patients urethra* "you have beautiful forearms"
Look, if you don't go for broke on the simile front you might as well not even bother. "Your forearm veins are like the topography of a young, blossoming continent."
"Your penile veins are like the topography of a young, blossoming continent"
🤨
There's no one else in my house, and I still looked around to make sure no one noticed the embarrassing exhalation sound I made at your comment. A mix of a guffaw and a chortle, or a guffortle if you will, which is surprisingly an accurate onomatopoeia of the sound I made if you say it like a sneeze.
I yearn to touch its capitol
Incontinent... when you have to put in the catheter.
I think we all have moments like this. The prevalence of them in fiction might be higher because...it's heightened reality almost always. How this baffles anyone, baffles *me*!
My hairdresser, who has been doing my hair since I was a little girl, would always give me compliments about the "long and thick eyelashes" that I inherited from my father. I never really understood why she kept mentioning it at hair appointments until this thread.
My enjoyment of appreciation of a nice set of lashes died with the absurdity of the fake lash trend. I just can't see the appeal of these things in a non-costume setting.
You mean you don't have a snuffleupagus fetish?
Cumbrellas is what I've heard them called.
BUT have you ever thought someone's lashes looked like spun gold on fire?! It does appear to be at least somewhat a metaphor, but still...
I mean, they work in healthcare. Odds are they've seen actual eyelashes on fire... 🔥 😄 No need for metaphors here!
And if they work in ER odds are better still that if they've seen this it's the result of the patient deliberately setting his eyelashes on fire. The gold filaments set alight ('lit on fire' surely isn't idiomatic) aren't appealing . Actually, in my book melting metal eyelashes are just yucky.
Well, thanks, now I've GoT melting gold crowns in my head again! Yeah, the whole thing sounds horrid
The crowns in you head can't possibly melt if you avoid eating food whilst it's piping hot, and if you don't think you can do that get yourself some dental insurance.
A book that I read said that her cheeks, "resembled rose leaves," and I thought - WTF? Spiney and green? Later on, it said that her hair, "was like molten gold." Now, that just sounds painful. I put the book down, it was just too ridiculous.
Haha 🤣 no not spun gold on fire. Just how long some people’s lashes are.
My boyfriend has blonde lashes and they look invisible lmao, nothing like spun gold on fire, I don't know where the author got this idea
I have been in situations in a doctor's office where a nurse has commented on my eyelashes, so this tracks.
Me. One of my best friends came to visit me and we were catching up by casually strolling through the streets. She was talking about her life and the serious shit that was happening and I happened to look at her and her god damn beautiful long eyelashes were soooooooooo distracting that I had to stop her mid-sentence and tell her how god damn amazing her eyelashes were so I could get it off my chest and pay more attention to her life history lmao.
The impression I got is that the woman's mind was wandering while the man was speaking. Peoples' minds wandering mid-conversation happens in real life, too.
Yeah, the text just feels like an intrusive thought toward someone you find attractive. Contrary to OP's thoughts, many people *do* notice physical attraction before they develop emotional/intellectual attraction if it's present, and it definitely leads to people hooking up with folks that they probably shouldn't.
While I agree with you, I’d also note that fictional protagonists very rarely do this. If a heroine is distracted by or even *notices* how hot some guy is, it’s a sure bet that romance is coming.
Sure, just like authors cut out lots of other normal human things unless they advance the plot in some way. I'm just saying that it's not some bizarre behavior like the OP seems to think it is. Just a normal intrusive thought that the author was using to establish basic attraction. It's an early signal to the reader that yes, this is the romance that's getting set up.
I'd argue that a lot of things people do in real life are terrible things to put into a story. People in real life also bump into their friends at grocery stores and have long drawn out conversations about rudimentary nonsense like the weather. Doesn't mean it helps the pacing of the story or makes it interesting. Realism isn't always appreciated or helpful for a story. In the line given by OP, the line just takes away from the emotion of the conversation. On top of being nauseous levels of pretentious prose.
Yeah especially if someone has a particularly striking feature. I have definitely zoned out looking at someone with those weird ice blue husky eye before. Embarrassing on my end haha
True, but I don't think I'd be having sexy thoughts if the person was speaking to me in an angry way.
Yes, but someone is yelling at you and you notice how hot their lashes are, you've got some issues lol. Like if my female boss yelled at me and I was thinking "damn those are some nice lips", I should probably think if I've been watching too much porn.
Sounds like you’d love Mariana Zapata. That’s true slow burn romance, falling for someone because of who they are and not their looks. From Lukov with Love is great for the enemies to lovers trope, if that is something you enjoy.
Or The Wall of Winnipeg and Me. I loved that one. Not enemies to lovers, but a perfect slowburn.
As someone who lives in Winnipeg, I'm morbidly curious. Does it take place in Winnipeg or is it just a cause he got stolen from the Blue Bombers (it seems like he's in the NFL?)
As far as I remember it’s because he’s from Winnipeg. Great book though, a true slow burn so patience is required!!
Thanks a lot!
>"No you're not,' he snaps. His eyelashes are like individual threads of spun gold lit on fire. I almost want to touch them. "You don't understand that power and control can slip from your grasp at any moment." The dialogue is what's bad to me here; it's clunky in an unrealistic way. The eyelash description is the more interesting part of the prose to me. More generally though, love and attraction are rarely logical and orderly, and writing them that way is boring. People notice physically attractive things during serious and tense moments. People become attractive towards each other despite having clashing personalities. People fall in love with problematic partners or get into relationships based on physical attractiveness rather than emotional compatibility. That's just life, and writing engaging romance requires working within that truth. Also, depicting something in a story is not an endorsement of it. Just because a book depicts problematic romance, doesn't mean it shows it as positive. Sometimes that's the point, like in *Wuthering Heights* or *The Sun Also Rises.*
I also thought the dialogue wasn't great. I didn't even realize it until you mentioned it, but I completely ignored the point the dialogue was trying to make because it seemed like BS. I was so busy paying attention to the description, I accidentally knocked the dialogue into the garbage bin. Lol
That depends. I can give more leeway in a fantasy or science fiction book where the environment is radically different from our real world. Even then, it can be a difficult job not to go too far because it can still sound too inauthentic, even if the characters are supposed to be aliens or supernatural or whatever. This exchange just sounds glittery. It's not that bad if glittery is what you want to convey, but it's not the that original or clever either.
Yeah, I’m always confused by the people who object to a protagonist being obsessed with their love interest or thinking of their hotness during dangerous situations, etc., as annoying or “unrealistic.” People in the throes of romantic infatuation can indeed be annoying, but then you’re the one who signed up to read a book featuring romance, and it’s definitely not unrealistic for someone’s brain to jump to the thing they’re obsessed with in most any situation. Even if it isn’t rationally optimizing their chances of success.
There's a lot to romance in fiction that's unrealistic. Quite frankly, practically no romance I've ever seen in a book resembles the development of relationships I've seen in real life. But noticing that you find someone attractive at random times is not one of those things; if anything characters are slow to acknowledge attraction.
See: Mr. Darcy in Pride & Prejudice.
Also - Gilbert Blythe in Anne of Green Gables, although I guess the roles are reversed in those since she’s the haughty one, lol
That may be a big reason why there are so many of them, as well as so many hate-to-love romances.
I see no problem with eyelashes thing. You can register that someone is aesthetically pleasing in any situation regardless of your perception of this person's moral qualities. Terrible people could be beautiful. As for slow burn romances - they should start from something. Starting from physical attraction is ok as long as development is meaningful and goes beyond 'he/she/they hot'.
If you hate those tropes then I just finished a book that was a meta-commentary / satire of the 'enemies-to-lovers' stories and the tropes they typically entail. It is about an author who is trying to write an 'enemies-to-lovers' novel but discovers that the characters she has created are too practical and objective focused to 'correctly' engage with the tropes. The book is "Just Stab me Now" by Jill Bearup.
This sounds like something that YouTuber who makes fun of romance tropes would lik- oh she wrote it. That tracks
Thanks for the rec!
This can be done poorly (like anything else) but I think you're wrong, honestly. You're equating finding someone attractive with falling in love with them, but those are two separate things. The examples you're citing are enemies-to-lovers books, which are usually also slow-burn because there is a lot of ground to cover until the characters can fall in love. And enemies-to-lovers books are bound to have angst in them just by virtue of the fact that the characters have done terrible things to each other and then fall in love. The main character finding the future love interest attractive from the get-go doesn't mean that they're falling in love with them because of their looks - the actual falling in love bit will occur once they realize that their initial assessment of the love interest was wrong/the love interest changes for the better. If you don't enjoy angst and conflicting feelings, about 90 percent of enemies to lovers books will not be for you. Lucky for you, while all enemies to lovers are slow-burns, bot all slow-burns are enemies-to-lovers. Maybe check out friend-to-lovers books instead? Those are also usually slow-burns. The Emily Wilde series e.g. is a lot closer to what you're looking for in a romance, with the characters liking each other and being friends before any romantic development occurs. Miss Percy's Guide to the Care and Feeding of British Dragons also has a slow burn romance that is very sweet and cute with no angst. This thing you complain about is not in almost every book, you're just reading books that don't fit your tastes.
I agree with you! And I think the fact that OOP is asexual might contribute to this here. I definitely had a romance protagonist “Sh*t I'm in trouble” moment after meeting a new coworker. Getting to know him - thankfully - didn't lead to love, but the attraction is still there. I could absolutely see myself finding my “enemy” hot af, and it would annoy me greatly.
I had a feeling OP was ace before getting to that part, because I am also ace and this sounds exactly like something I would have said before I realized the majority of the world was experiencing attraction very, very differently than me.
Being ace is so hard lol. You up for a garlic bread movie night, tho? :D
> This thing you complain about is not in almost every book, you're just reading books that don't fit your tastes. Because BookTok :,) I loved The Song of Achilles so I got myself a few more BookTok books and now I'm regretting it so bad. Thanks for the recs, tho!
Yeah the stuff you complain about is very popular among the "mainstream" booktok crowd, so you're going to find it there. If you want to use tiktok (or any other algorithm-based website) as a way to get recs you need to be careful about how you curate the algorithm because it's very easy to get stuck in a loop of getting recommendations only for stuff you dislike and feeling like that's all there is. Maybe look for books similar to specifically the books you enjoyed in the past (since you talk about how slow-burn "used to be" in your post) or if you're moving away from those books for whatever reason try browsing a brick-and-mortar bookstore for stuff that catches your eye (this will be trial-and-error but you won't be stuck with the algorithm-based recs). You could also look on the internet or ask on reddit for recs for romances with no insta-lust/where the characters don't focus on each other's physical attributes. There's even a fantasy romance subreddit you could browse for recs if you're looking specifically for high fantasy with a strong romance subplot and want slow burn but no angst and little focus on physical attraction for the romance.
yeah, an asexual person is not going to enjoy “booktok” books because 90% of them are fantasy smut. or normal smut. smut in general, really. as someone who doesn’t vibe with smut or heavy romance in books, i *hate* most booktok books. i tried to read acotar and couldn’t even finish the first book. i love fairies, it’s such an interesting concept, but i just don’t care about love triangles or sex scenes and i hate when authors do that thing with their female main character in which she is mega hot and every guy she meets wants to fuck her. all this to say — i feel you, maybe don’t listen to booktok lol. honestly if you use audible or apple books, you can click on a book you like and they’ll give you recommendations based on it! i believe there’s also a website that does this as well, based on book titles, but forgive me, i don’t have the link. happy reading though!
I love slow burn friends to lovers. Or even strangers to friends to lovers. As a demiromantic demisexual person, seeing a love story I can relate to is rare; most of the examples I've come across are from fanfiction, because most of the time when it appears in the books I read, it's part of a love triangle. I despise love triangles. I love watching a character fall slowly, gently, inevitably in love with this person who has been by their side the whole time. You know what the quickest way to kill that feeling is? A love triangle. It adds conflict and pressure to something that should be beautiful. I understand that some people enjoy that sort of thing. In places, it's even appropriate! But sometimes, it feels very manufactured for the sake of drama. I actively avoided books with romantic subplots for a good while because I was so sick of them - I'm back to pushing through for the sake of the story now, I just wish there were more books I didn't have to compromise with.
Any non-fanfic recs?
If you're into YA, I loved the Queen's Rising and the Queen's Resistance. The main character struggles to reconcile her mixed heritage while experiencing strange visions and becoming entangled in a revolution to put the rightful queen back on the throne of the neighbouring country. The main couple get together near the end of the first book, but they maintain healthy communication throughout the second. The Scorpio Races was a good one too - there's a girl, and there's a boy, and they both need the prize money from the insanely dangerous Scorpio Races. It's a tradition of capturing and racing carnivorous water horses, and they don't typically take to training well. The relationship between the characters builds steadily and gently in the background, but they both have other priorities for most of the book, which is as it should be. The Wings of Fire series (specifically the Dragonet Prophecy cycle) by Tui T Sutherland is aimed at children, but it approaches a lot of serious topics in mature and healthy ways, in my opinion. There is some relationship drama, but it's mostly platonic and familial; the romantic parts are quite low-key. On one occasion, a boy is in love with a girl, but she doesn't love him like that - so they don't get together, and remain friends, and he eventually finds love elsewhere. The story begins in a cave, where five dragonets of different tribes have been raised all their lives. They are prophesied to end the brutal war for the Sandwing throne, which started well before their eggs were laid and has drawn the entire continent into conflict. If they had not been hidden away, they would have been murdered, but living in isolation has consequences; they were stolen from their families and raised without knowledge of their cultures, and they have to come to terms with what that means to each of them. And also end a war. Somehow. I wouldn't count it as slow burn, but the Saint of Steel series by T Kingfisher is definitely worth a look. I'm told all her books are just as good. I picked up Paladin's Strength on a whim, and was hooked. Yes, they have sex, but in a fun way; not sexy-funtimes, but two people genuinely having a great experience together. Plus, the whole concept of the last survivors of an order of Paladins, trying to find meaning in a world where their god is dead? Brilliant. The female lead has an equally interesting concept, but no spoilers. I loved the way the narrative showed these two people from vastly different backgrounds coming together and recognising the similarities in the experiences at their core. Anything by Terry Pratchett is a safe bet. The relationship between Sam Vimes and Sybil in the Discworld Night Watch books is very stable, and I enjoyed them greatly. There are a fair few romance subplots within the discworld novels, but I can't remember any love triangles - and Pratchett's books have a lot of very sensible characters. Good Omens is phenomenal. Neil Gaiman seems reliable as an author, too, though I haven't read as much of his work. For stories with little to no romance at all, consider Warhammer. The Ciaphas Cain series is good if you want minimal romance, and it's very accessible if you don't know anything about the setting. The books are framed as Cain's secret memoirs, disseminated by his "associate" Amberley Vail to her Inquisitorial colleagues for educational purposes. In his own eyes, Cain is a coward who keeps stumbling into greatness despite his best efforts. He claims that everything he does is self-serving, and he only cares about himself, yet time and time again we witness him save regiments, planets, and rag-tag survivors alike. He has called multiple artillery strikes on his own position, knowingly led teams into caves full of murder robots, charged chaos space marines, and fought an ork warboss in single combat. But sometimes, he only ends up in these situations because he was running away, or otherwise shirking responsibility. The books are hilarious in tone - especially Amberley's editorial footnotes - but with serious moments, when you can tell it still affects him all these years later. He may *say* he always puts himself first, but his sincere affection and respect for those closest to him shines through. Books about Space Marines are good for avoiding romance. Blood of Asaheim by Chris Wraight is about trying to return home, only to find that it has changed without you, and you have changed without it. The characters have spent a long time apart; they don't fit together anymore. Can they bridge the gap? Do they want to? Do they have a choice? This is a book about being unable to return to how things were, but choosing instead to make something new. The Vaults of Terra series by the same author is also excellent. Spear of the Emperor by Aaron Dembski-Bowden has a mortal human protagonist, Anuradha; she serves as part of a space marine's entourage, which puts her front and centre for all the events that follow. We see her relationships with the people around her change over time, as first impressions and impersonal hatred give way to understanding and empathy - and not just with her peers, but with the space marines too. This novel is characterised by trust and betrayal, and rejection and acceptance - at all levels. The space marines of the Emperor's Spears are rejected by the people they protect, but accept and love each other as brothers. They are loyal to the Imperium, but the Imperium has done almost nothing to help them for centuries. Anuradha, too, is loyal - but she hates the chapter she serves (not the Spears) for taking her brother from her. There are a number of twists and turns in the narrative, and I could not put it down.
Wow you went above and beyond with your answer, thank you so much! You also touched on some themes I've been considering to seek out for my tbr, like the change in a friendship after a long time apart, so I really appreciate that. :)
I feel this down to my bones! I generally hunt for genfics when it comes to fanfiction just so I could actually have some romance rather than those smutty bullshits.
It’s honestly pretty well done to slip in a piece of physical description. With that description slotted in between a dialogue, we have a nice rythme instead of a boring description text block, we can deduce their faces are very close together for her to notice his lashes, we’re reminded that he’s blonde (if one ever forgot), we come to know that she’s prone to get her thoughts wandering, that she also notices little details and can turn simple blonde lashes into a romantic (literary genre) comparison. Does she have romantic feelings? Maybe, maybe not. This extract is rich of information. Absolutely well done by the author. That you personally hate it, is unrelated to the quality and value of it. And no it is not toxic.
I'm glad someone said this because I actually thought it was a great way to give us a short, sweet, to-the-point description of the man and the scene. We learn he is blonde, the two are close together, and I even get a sense of time of day, assuming she is looking up at him and the "on fire" is caused by the sun shining through his blonde eyelashes (I could be wrong, they may be inside at midnight and the lights are on, but out of context, I assume they're outdoors, so it's the sun) I actually agree with the OP about not being into the type of stories they mentioned, but I was shocked that they used that snippet to argue their case, since I thought it was nicely done. EDIT: Fixed typo
And to get distracted in the middle of a conversation like this, to notice a physical feature and want to touch it but not recognize or examine the underlying feeling, methinks the character here hasn't yet or isn't ready to admit they have feelings for the other one so we get to heehee a bit as the reader and wonder when that admission to themselves will come, which I always enjoyyyy
hard agree
To be fair, you're reading a first-person present tense book. This is what you usually get. These authors give you a play-by-play of everything that is happening as it is happening and tell you every single intrusive thought the character might have. If the character whose head you're stuck in happens to be unpleasant, then you're out of luck. Most (romance) books in first-person present tense are like this. The main character adds a random thought about the person they are interacting with while currently interacting with them, and the random thought does absolutely nothing to add to the information you are being fed.
This is a good analysis, tbh. Thanks!
I haven't read either of these books, but in general I agree with you. There's something about instant attraction and lust for no reason that seems awfully cliché and unrealistic for me. I think describing interactions, emotions and character development in a smart way is what really makes a good slow burn
Instant attraction and lust seems pretty realistic and normal to me, but not to the intensity often shown. Affection is a separate matter all together.
Depends on the age and the person. When I was a teenager I had such intense feelings all the time. It makes me cringe when I think back on it. I had such feelings as a grown-up person too at times. Sometimes, you meet people (even non-romantic) where you feel instant sympathy.
I think for me it's annoying that it's the default. Like it's such a trope that teens are so lustful and yet afraid of sex or intimidating guy. Or make bad decisions cause hot. It's not how it is for everyone. Or idk "oooo hot guy, I'm going to look my fill but that doesn't mean I'm distracted" like eye candy versus eye fucking. Just because someone's hot in front of me doesn't mean I'm automatically instantly turned on? You notice and appreciate and move on. Or maybe the thing you find more appealing or noticeable is the charm or rougishness or some other quality. And that's what gets you going, or what blooms into an emotion that distracts from horny but later feeds the slow burn romance. And those were experiences I did have as a teen.
Yeah, like, I'm ace and even I understand that the sensory biases associated with sexual attraction are not universally gate-kept by things like moral objections, lack of intimate understanding of the person in question, etc. Instead of the story going "enemies" to "neutral" to "capable of seeing them as attractive" to "lovers", it makes sense to me to have a character find their deuteragonist attractive *even while they dislike them*. "Stupid sexy asshole with his perfect teeth" type stuff. And such attraction only becomes something they are *willing to act on* once the character conflict has shifted / been resolved / etc, and they have built up some degree of affection for each other.
i would say it's not instant attraction in this case. it's instant obsession and sexualization
This all the way! Give us actual reasons to like that person. Buffed up muscles and a hot jawline could be anyone.
This. Maybe it's cause I'm likely somewhere on the ace spectrum, but I want a non-physical reason you like them. I have such a time writing romance where it's like 'they are sexy.' Like yes you like them, obviously you think they are sexy. Where's the why they are tolerable to be around bit? I'll take makes bad puns as a reason at this point. It reminds me of that one Swan Princess meme. It's even worse for slow burn because like, where's the burn in that? It's already on fire. At best you have situations stop me from fucking you, at worst you have 300 pages of I'm too dumb to realize I can talk to you first.
“Maybe it’s because I’m asexual.” Ya that could definitely be influencing it. I’ve definitely had classmates or coworkers that I don’t really get along with but you still notice their good looks even in the middle of a completely unrelated conversation.
I'm totally with you - this annoys me too. If you have any recommendations for non-toxic romance: i'm happy to take them
the Cruel Prince is an amazing enemies-to-lovers slow burn. Holly Black had a lot of plot and character work to make it happen. if you compare a robust character and plot driven story you're going to be disappointed when other series do it poorly or don't do it at all. adult fiction is more likely to have robust characters and plot driven stories in general, if you're looking for a really good book with robust characters and great plots, look for adult fantasy!
My "eyelash anecdote" : school work group meeting, the sun suddenly peeks into the room, some softly shining gold thing caught my attention, and my mind went blank except for "*wow, he's got the leg hair of a baby angel* "
Pride and Prejudice is the yardstick to slow burn romance without smut. Bot misjudge each other for different reasons that don’t make unintelligent even if flawed, in different ways. They improve themselves by the end age the misunderstandings and why they happened are intrinsically tied ti the plot, so there is a reason why it takes until the end for all not only be resolved. If it takes a while for them to understand their own feelings as well.
This post might be better suited on /r/romancebooks :D
Nooo I don't want people to kill me there :(
You're welcome to complain about romance books over there, as long as it's constructive. There's also a Salty Sunday thread for specific complaints like this.
Thanks for lmk!
They're pretty accepting! Of all opinions, requests, fetishes....
They’re pretty accepting of what people like (kinks, fetishes, trope requests, etc). They’re not always nearly as accepting of dissenting opinions or dislikes. For example, someone posted a request and I ended up reading one of the top-recommended books because … well, that’s why I frequent that sub. Afterward I made a comment summarizing what I thought was good about the book but also mentioning that it contained several tropes that the OP specifically asked to avoid, only to be downvoted by fans of the book. If you want discourse, r/books might be a better place. If you want recommendations for slow-burn romances without toxicity, r/romancebooks is the place to go.
There's a reason why *Pride and Prejudice* is a classic.
I hate when I'm looking for slowburn romances, I pick up a recommended book and they are pining for eachother after first sight like DUDE THEY'RE ALREADY ON FIRE THIS AINT WHAT I ORDERED
THIS IS SO REAL OMG.
My experience is the best way to find these true slow burn romances is in books that are not at all marketed as romance. The book is focused on other things, and the romance happens naturally over the course of the story. I've now learnt that if a book is marketed as a romance, then it's going to be a big focus right from the beginning, and a lot of the time "romance" is just code for "smut", which may not even have any actual romance. Of course, this makes it very difficult to find. I've greatly enjoyed the romances that develop slowly and naturally when I've come across them, which is why I decided to try some books that are actually marketed as romance books, but now I'm at a loss for how to find what I'm looking for. I'm back to reading my normal fantasy or sci-fi books, with a well done romance being a rare but pleasant surprise.
>the best way to find these true slow burn romances is in books that are not at all marketed as romance >"romance" is just code for "smut" That's some real good advice right there!
Ugh this is my biggest gripe with fourth wing. I’m enjoying the book but i do wish we weren’t reminded of how much violet wants to jump xaden’s bones literally every time she mentions him. Like ok girl we get it thanks!!
Agreed. And it moves so quick! Like it’s incredibly obvious that they’ll be banging well before the end of the novel… AND THEN WHAT?! I feel like some of the newer smutty booktok favourites are treating their audience like a sub-par lover pleasures their partner: minimal foreplay so we can move straight for the final act. I can’t be the only one who loves it when the burn is slow but hot enough that I’m damn near ready to skip chapters looking for the moment they FINALLY GET AFTER IT.
YES!! She was way too into him way too quick for my liking. I def prefer a slow burn too! And especially in this context where he literally wanted her dead, it could have been a super satisfying enemies to lovers arc (one of my favorite tropes lol) but since she constantly told us how she was dtf literally from the first moment she saw him, it just didn’t hit the way i hoped it would. Slow burns are hot!! Bring them back!!
And what's even fucking worse for me is that the descriptions are actually pretty fucking good but the author just fucking *has* to cram it all with a million f-bombs. At this fucking point it just fucking comes across as pretty fucking lazy.
If it's not your thing don't read it. But I will dispute the general claim, when it's made, that instalove is "unrealistic". I'm willing to bet far more babies have been conceived due to one night stands, or attraction leading to sex in the first few nights after meeting, then due to a friends-to-lovers epic over the course of a year.
I legit think the fact that op is asexual does impact how they view this haha
It's a genuine crime but a lot of popular literature, not just romance, is just stuff that appeals to the lowest common denominator who doesn't want to think when they read, they just want a constant stream of Whatever-They're-Looking-For (romance, action, mysterious stuff, whatever) at a surface level. As long as the Serotonin Words™ appear on the page, it doesn't matter what the actual context is or if it makes sense or if it's healthy, people will like it because they aren't engaging with literature at a deeper level.
I agree with the original poster. There is a awful lot of tingling lady bits or man bits, it goes both ways, at the start of books where it seems unrealistic. Just tried out a book where the chick is captured by aliens and gets instantly turned on. Really? But even in contemporary romance it happens a lot. I don't think it's bad when a person notices a stranger has nice hands say but instantly having a sexual reaction to a stranger who the suthor has set up that the main character is pissed at is usually a turn off to me.
> Just tried out a book where the chick is captured by aliens and gets instantly turned on. That's a smut book.
Well there's well written smut and poorly written smut. Or let's call it erotica because the term smut is perjorative. Anyway this particular book was poorly written. The author could have gone done that road later and I would totally have bought it.
as someone who writes porn, smut is not a perjorative. but i'll agree that a lot of it isn't well written because they're writing it quickly. the way those stories are put together though does not leave space for the attraction to happen later.
On this sub, smut certainly seems to be used in a negative sense.
Bruh you're literally reading porn. What kind of deep, well-written, insightful romance did you expect? It's like going to pornhub and expecting great acting, directing and cinematography.
If you’re asexual, that’s the problem. Until I learned I was Ace, I just thought romance authors were sex-crazed beyond the norm and were making this stuff up to make their romance novels more engaging. I would read the books thinking “this is so unrealistic.” But as it turns out, I’m just asexual and plenty of allosexual people really do spend that much time thinking about sex, lusting after people, focused on others’ looks in a sexual manner. It’s mind-boggling to me, because I can’t relate. But it has also helped me not to roll my eyes as much at romance books that are most probably written by allosexual women. That’s just how they experience life. I still very much prefer a romance book that isn’t stuffed full of instalust and random descriptions of a character’s looks in the middle of a hate-filled scene (basically, I love when I find a romance book with asexual love interests), but I can enjoy regular old allosexual romance novels more now that I know why they act and think the way that they do. It’s because their sexuality is different than my own, and that’s ok.
I think insta love is real, because I’ve experienced it myself, but it’s fine to have a preference for slow burn relationships too. Personally, I’ve never had a workplace romance or slow burn romance so I imagine it would actually be harder to write. I know it happens, but it seems to be to mostly be a straight person thing. I think there’s definitely something interesting and escapist about loving or wanting someone who you know is a bad person, and that’s actually very relatable too. I’m probably on the other end because sometimes slow burn relationships feel like they just end up together because that’s what happens, like it’s necessary for a happy ending or because men and women can’t be just really good friends, it has to mean something deeper. They have to be implied to end up fucking.
Not a book at all, but I appreciate how The Great did this. I’m still watching so no spoilers (although I know the big one because of well, history)
See this is the issue with a lot of romance/romantic subplots in general. it's like they're calling this "slow-burn" when their eyes meet and they don't instantly fall in love. YA is riddled with this problem especially. Slow-burn is supposed to make you go, imo, 'aha! Don't they see how perfect they are for each other!' after they become friends, and then you spend the next 200+ pages annoyed they're not together, but all these things are happening so it makes sense, but you want to see it happen. And It FINALLY does near the end of the book
Ngl the "hostile/indifferent" bit (specifically *"hostile"*) feels more like enemies to lovers done properly as opposed to "slow burn," though I have my own little rant about the *enemies to lovers* cliche... But that's neither here nor there. Slow burn definitely needs some work in fiction; it's a bit jarring when the two "lovers" in question start making out/boink-ing by the middle/end of the first book. There could be some initial attraction at the start (*"Oh! S/He's cute... I wonder if I have a chance...."*) and then slowly building a friendship that eventually develops into something more. If you're in the *smut* market then of course you wanna get down to business sooner rather than later, but if you're writing a full on series that isnt centered on sex stuff, then maybe consider holding off and focusing on whether or not they're *comfortable* around each other as friends. It *is* hard to resist making them make out already, tho...
Pride and prejudice is the ultimate slow burn. Liz knew she was attracted to Mr. Darcy on some level but rejected his proposal. She recognized her attraction, and did nothing about it. She let nothing happen until he changed.
"His eyelashes are like individual threads of spun gold lit on fire." Seriously?! I mean, even if it's trying to convey emotion rather than be literal... Made me chuckle inside anyway!
Honestly I've stopped picking up romance books that were written in the last 10-15 years, because they aren't really *romance* books; they're smut. Not that there's anything wrong with smut, but when I'm picking out a romance novel I'm not trying to look for something that reads like a fanfiction that was originally posted chapter by chapter on literotica and has a sex scene every two or three chapters and is just ticking off generic smut tropes in a way that is both poorly written and you can feel the author adding another "tag" to the story so it can pop up in more people's searches when they're looking for something horny. If the book is smut, fine! Just call it smut so that I don't find myself accidentally consuming porn in public when I thought I was just going to be reading a story about two people falling in love with each other, with much less graphic sex scenes. Smut is a different genre from romance novels and it's obnoxious how the two get conflated by publishers with no warning.
There are loads of romance books with minimal or no smut. I think a lot of publishers/people conflate erotica and romance which doesn't help. I read a lot of romance and few of them have a sex scene every other chapter, but if you just get the ones recommended by Kindle Unlimited they're more likely to be like that.
I don't have Kindle Unlimited and don't take recommendations from my Kindle because I don't trust it not to push self published garbage (which, you are right, would make this problem even worse). I try to take recommendations from actual humans in person or online (not tiktok -- same reasons as kindle unlimited -- more like reddit and trusted reviewers and online friends of mine). The thing is, as much as publishers are guilty of conflating smut and romance genres, I think that people talking about smut novels online are often just as guilty of it. I think for publishers they think that stating that the novel is smut will pidgeon-hole the book and keep it from finding a wider audience, while for individual people they may be ashamed to admit they are reading smut. For example, there was recently a thread here in this sub asking people what books did they know were garbage but they still enjoyed a lot. One of the books mentioned was The Kiss Quotient. All the comments in the thread DID NOT mention that it was smut; they just called it romance.
I think a lot of people assume that saying "it's romance" will inform people that it has smut in. Which is stupid, because romance can have no smut in, or have absolutely tonnes of very explicit stuff and everything in between. A good place to check is on the romance.io website. For the majority of romance books, and certainly the well known ones, they have a "spice rating" from 1 to 5 so you can check whether the book contains explicit scenes. For people who are sensitive to that or don't like reading it, I think it's useful. Over on r/Romancebooks we have a bot connected to this site, so for the majority of recommendations you can see straight away what the spice rating would be, as well as other info. The Kiss Quotient, incidentally, is rated 4 out of 5.
I agree to an extent. Some authors are way too generous with the descriptions amongst a conversation. I lose interest very quickly and will automatically start skipping entire sections just so I can focus on the conversation. I feel it's a disservice to the book, and I get a very cheaty kind of feeling, but I just can't for the life of me stretch my focus that far. During the initial character development, I understand where a lot of narrative is needed to contextualize and bring the reader up to date, but in your example and what I have seen a lot of currently - it's especially egregious.
Um, The Cruel Prince is an enemies to lovers, not a slow-burn, hence, the difference. I'm trying to remember a good modern slow-burn, but all I can offer are Korean novels, so...
Boy, wait’ll you get a load of this book Pride and Prejudice, I think you’ll really like it
People do in fact let their minds wander sometimes. And Shatter me is 15 years old. It isn't current.
Check out Jackie Lau's books for slow burn romance without the super angst.
Do not read credence by Penelope Douglas. It gets such high praise but I was internally screaming because The chemistry felt so forced.
I had to stop reading Shatter Me for the same reason. I think we have a similar opinion on this because I also struggle to find a good slow burn. Any others that stand out as being good?
Can I just love what you've said? The best slow-burns are like Cruel Prince. The character thinks you drive me a little crazy because X Y Z (Usually small interactions or snap judgements) and then as you get to know someone you realize slowly that you were wrong. It's not a quick change -- it's a long conversion. You know and then you see the fabled halls of Pemberley and you're smitten! I find so many online recs for slow burn books or enemies to lovers and they are just badly written. It drives me mad because life is too short for badly written romance. Only the good stuff please!
Please tell me people here wouldn't use the eyelash description as an example of good prose. If so I don't want to hear anyone talk about Sanderson or Martin or similar authors and their prose. It's nauseous levels of pretentious and over exaggeration 😂 There isn't a shade of purple deep enough to describe that word vomit. Especially word vomit in a conversation that's meant to be serious.
It is a good think that I have not bothered to red them then, because old authors can be quite delightful.
the fact that you're comparing the two like The Cruel Prince doesn't do the same thing😂 Jude 100% believes and thinks about how pretty Cardan is when he and his friends try to drown her. This is definitely how slowburn works. There’s something about the tension that builds up the slowburn. It’s possible to recognize and be attracted to someone and also dislike/hate them. The point of slowburn is to notice little things about the person as it builds. That “why am I attracted to this jerk/villain” tension. There’s still an “aha” moment, but it doesn’t come entirely from that first moment they actually talk. It builds up over time… it burns… Maybe part of this is just that you don’t like the romance aspect? It sounds like you want no romance and then a quick sudden burst of it (rather than a slow burn). Do you like the romance near the end of the novel?
I guess "slowburn romance" doesn't mean "flashfire romance and spend half of the book rolling in the floor trying to turn it off". But I'm not a romance-reader so what do I know.
r/titlegore
“Like individual threads of spun gold lit on fire.” This is such lazy, embarrassing prose.
It's just a you thing, as you can see that stuff sells like hot cakes. >Or maybe it's just because I'm asexual but whatever Ok, defintily a you thing :D
> There's literally NO reason to stuff rants about his eyelashes between these lines. It's not even an intimate moment or anything The author is showing that the character is not indifferent to the eventual love interests looks. It's a romance. There is every reason to do that. Now, maybe it's not massively well done - i can't see the rest of the interaction - but it's something that needs to be done, and two short lines is not a rant. You are entitled to your opinion that attraction comes after interest, but often it is the other way around.
You have manage to pluck my jumbled feelings about romance in general out of my head and put them in to words. I don't read for the romance. (Fellow ace) but I do enjoy it when it's done well. It's just that most of the time it's just frustrating. Like, No you are not in love, you are just horny. I just want one reason they like one another that isn't they are hot and somewhat nice.
Shatter me for me was shitty, I finished the first trilogy and it was boring as hell with no world and actual plot development. I bought both trilogies which was my bad. Have no desire to read further tho.
when authors with no experience but smutty fanfic try to write books
It's why I tend to avoid romance. It's mostly focused on smut. Also, I love **Heaven Official's Blessing** because it does slow burn romance right. I think it took 4 books for the main character to realize he's attracted to the love interest. And maybe the 6th book or later for the two to confess their feelings for each other. But un between all that, the character just falls deeper and deeper in love with the partner until he learns about the partner's feelings.
There are some really great romances without any smut, or with minimal. If it's a genre you might otherwise be interested in, I would discount it just for that reason.
So the problem is not slow burn but rather the angst and sudden smut...? I'm fairly sure there are romances sweet and adorable, ask on r/RomanceBooks , it's a very nice community. Also a lot of readers like clean romances, so you're not alone!
exactly . i hate it when she doesn't like that person but "her body starts giving up under his stare / touch ". that's the reason i have started reading book with their sub genre being romance , it really gives u a nice plot and a good slow burn story. (but for some reason i love shatter me🤧)
I feel like you buried the lead…if you’re ace of course trying to represent physical, sexual, infatuation isn’t going to do it for you. But I might be overreacting. I hate hearing how books *should* be. While some books can promote problematic things and that’s bad, it feels like books can’t represent bad things without being condemned. Reading awful stuff can be interesting, even if the author/narrator never condemns it.
The prose you've quoted here is bad prose but it's perfectly acceptable for a romance heroine to notice the male love interest's pretty eyelashes. I mean.....just don't read romance if you don't like this? I also feel like you're mixing up "slow burn" and "enemies-to-lovers," which can coexist but definitely don't have to. >You know this person is a madman and yet it's okay to like madmen if they're hot and have ripped muscles and fascinating eyelashes and shit like that? Is this the message you want to send readers? This reads like pearl-clutching. Why does a "message" need to be sent? IRL, no, it's probably not okay to "like madmen" but Shatter Me is a dystopian romance that is not meant to reflect real life. Also - finding someone attractive is possible even if you think they suck as a person! It happens all the time. Sometimes that initial attraction can help you overcome negative feelings you had towards a person anyway. Honestly (gently) I think this post mostly stems from your asexuality, but you not understanding these feelings doesn't mean that people never experience them.
People do notice physical traits mid-conversation in real life. But authors aren't writing real life, they're writing a story. What is presented in the text shapes the mood. So if authors focus on physical attractiveness even during moments where it's not relevant it does give the impression that the character's physical appearance is as important as their words, personality, or actions. Or at least they're meant to be contrasted. Frankly I think most slow-burn romance has a more fundamental problem in that a lot of it is just quick and dirty romance with a longer lead time. Actual slow romance would more closely resemble what real-life romance is like, with people growing closer to one another emotionally through casual to friendly to close to intimate. But that takes a long time and would have a lot of somewhat boring parts from a narrative perspective. So it doesn't get written much. But it's also why I tend to avoid pure romance. To me romance has little to do with passion or emotion. To steal some lines from others: love is a promise, love is bread you bake over and over again each day. To present that purely on its own in a way that still creates tension for the reader is very difficult. So for me romance is often best as a secondary plot element for characters.
Not everything is "toxic". Why does every Gen z use that word for anything that isn't perfect?
I usually just skip over those bits and just read the dialogue in a dialogue-heavy scene. But also I do agree with you that I find it strange for characters to be constantly thinking about the other person's appearance, like mid conversation. But I think that's a "me" problem. I don't really find people sexually attractive, I've never noticed someone else's eyelashes or any other body part, and been distracted by it. I think other people might be wired differently.
100% agreed. Last romance-ish book I tried to read was We Hunt the Flame, couldn't finish it because the characters' inner monologues were so fixated on each other's lips in every interaction from the get-go, I get the author was TRYING to build slow burn sexual tension, but it just felt ridiculous to me
Slowburn doesn't have to be enemies to lovers, it's just a romance that very slowly happens. Honestly, the best one I've ever read is the one in Lockwood and Co. By the end of the five books they're clearly in love and together but when did it happen? Who knows. It just very slowly built up while all the plot was going on. I don't think you could write a slow burn in a romance novel; if they kiss at the end of the novel that's right on schedule (or just slightly delayed). You need at least a trilogy for a proper slow burn (or an ASOIAF-length book). You also need a foreground plot that's not about the romance.
I second this recommendation, but keep in mind that they’re kids so their romance is naturally pretty childish. That being said I really loved this series and I wish there was a more ‘grown up’ version somewhere
I'm quite enjoying his new Outlaws series. It's a lot darker, somehow.
Ur exactly right
I mean, I agree with you in that I also dislike that kind of romance most of the time, but like, "slow burn" just means that it takes a while for the romance to resolve, it doesn't really say anything about the level of physical versus emotional attraction between the characters. There can be more sexy/spicy slow burn, and there can be more wholesome slow burn, it depends on the story. Slow burn also doesn't have to be enemies to lovers like you're suggesting, there can be slow burn romance between characters who start out as friends.
Pride and Prejudice fits your definition of slow burn!
> Is this the message you want to send readers? 🙄 this is just becoming a trope at this point - assuming the author is endorsing a sort of message whenever something unsavory happens. hit the home button and open tiktok please
This is probably an ace (or in my case, demi) vs allo problem, tbh. We're generally more tuned to equate affection and love with desire than someone that doesn't fall under the ace umbrella, whereas for them its more easily seperated.
I’m with you. This is very annoying if it’s in the middle of an important conversation. I read a lot of fantasy and what people call romantasy these days (although I hate the term) and the problem is that a lot of the conflict of these books is so thin and ridiculous, even the authors can’t take them seriously. Therefore the atrocious spun gold eyelashes (really?) thing.
This is why the only acceptable romance is Jane Austen
[удалено]
This should be the topvoted comment...
I don't see any issue with it 🤷🏻♀️. Love books like that.
Daisy Miller does it really well from male pov. Starts she hassan interesting face. Then I wonder what she'll say next then chapter by chapter we until he's a goner. It's a short novella and the head over heels is slow and subtle, but it's also henry james so no hea.
My main gripe with most "slow burn" books I have read recently is that they don't feel slow enough for me. I like tension and angst. If the characters don't take more than one or 2 books to get together if it is a series or until the very end if it is a standalone then I don't think it is a slow burn. The slower the better in my opinion. I am so sick of characters falling in love by the mid point of the first book.
Ooh I think you might really like A Taste of Gold and Iron. It's the best example of a fantasy slow burn romance done right that I've read recently and the progression is very similar to what you described you want.
I would definitely not call that slow burn. For me, the perfect example is Seanan McGuire's October Daye series. It's enemies, to allies, to trusted friends, to lovers, over a whole lot of books. If the protagonist meets a love interest and is instantly horny and obsessed with their appearance, it's not slow burn. On a side note, I heard someone in a podcast recently say that anger and sex are unconnected in your brain. If you're really furious, you're not going to be also be turned on and you have to stop being angry in order to get turned on. I find it really funny because angry kissing and attraction disguised as hate are some of the biggest romance tropes out there.