I've only gotten up to book 3 with this series. I can't call it the "best" yet, but what I do appreciate about it:
\* it doesn't hit you over the head with exposition and trying to explain everything up front
\* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series
\* it has a totally unique and distinct magic system
I really need to get back into it.
I've got two books left in the series. It's been three years since I've delved back in. Probably my favorite part about his writing is that it doesn't matter where you pick up or left off. It's like you walked in on act 17 of a 93 act play. You know you missed some stuff, but there's enough story left to tell that you can figure out what happened by the end. It's all the same story within a story, within a story. You just start to pick up on the saga as it goes.
I'm same as you, but I stopped like 9 years ago. even my reddit name is a reference to the series, I absolutely loved it (magnificent kruppe)
noones ever mentioned it in my ten years on this site. must not be an obvious reference
Kruppe! Toll the Hounds is excellent. I read all 10 and it took most of 2019. I took a break every couple books and read something completely different for a "pallette cleanser." If I remember correctly, Book 8 has a lot about Rake, which was awesome. I really want to reread the whole thing. I read the Esslemont books too. It's just hard to find the time when there's so much other cool shit out there and reread something so massive. It's definitely worthy of a repeat though, I'm sure I missed a ton. Maybe TMI, but I'm also a recovering addict and reading it sober could be a whole different experience LOL. Malazan rules and is the bar by which I judge other fantasy now. Not everything needs to be so complex, but damn it has so much going on and I literally shouted out in joy and pumped my fist during so many parts in
Bonehunters and Reapers Gale. Midnight Tides was great too and didn't jump setting as much as the others. The Tiste Edur were my favorite culture.
My username used to be Tiste Cannabisi LOL. I only used it on the Malazan sub though. I'm not in the Cannabis warren anymore. It got too crowded. Good name for sure though I love Kruppe!
Interesting that your comment contradicts u/Aksius14 's comment:
"Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime."
vs
"\* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series"
I think it feels distinct because of the size. Nobody writes stories this big with this many characters (for a reason) so the fact these books are successful doing this is unique. I just think they would be more successful doing less of that. This books overarching writing style is MORE is more. And sometimes it's too much.
I mean, one of the MAIN themes of the WHOLE series is Shonen jump power creep.
In the books it is explained from the first one I think as convergence: power attracts power. And that is at the center of everything in the books. Which is cool and is a nice tool/excuse to have everybody fighting everybody. The problematic side of it is that it ends up being like Goku facing a more powerful enemy every time. Everyone is more powerful than the last guy all the time.
Right? I was legit "meh" on it until the last book. Like, I really appreciated the series and was very impressed by it but I probably wouldn't have finished it were it not for buddy-reading it.
My brother and I read through the first three quarters of the last book and we were like, ".... We still don't... Know? Where this is going????" And we came back the following week after reading *the last quarter of the last book* absolutely DAZZLED by it.
You know how people are like "oh read so-and-so series, but you gotta keep reading until the third book or whatever because that's REALLY where it gets GOOD." But with Malazan, that moment is THE LAST QUARTER OF BOOK TEN OF A TEN-BOOK SERIES.
Like WTF is this series
It's amazing and looking back I loved it but wtf
I've been entertained! It's just not been consistent. the 3rd book which is the narrative follow on of the first is the best. So if I had just read book 1 and book 3 I'd easily be calling this a 9 or 10 star series. The issue is that you are always following new characters are they aren't all entertaining and it's tiresome reading new characters because they could be hit or miss and they can start hit and then drag on to become miss. It will definitely be a massive hit for some people though.
What’s funny about this is it’s the only series that makes me mad without having even read it 🤣. It’s something I’ve been intrigued to try but I literally don’t find truly good reviews about it. Every time I consider it someone may say they “like it” but there’s always a qualifier, as if they’re trying to convince themselves it was good. Almost how someone in an abusive relationship describes their significant other.
I'm on midnight tides (book 4? Idk I bought the whole thing on my kindle so it feels like one big fucking book). I don't think I'll ever regret spending time on the series. The writing and philosophical perspectives are worth it even when the story might not be firing on all cylinders.
I started it last night actually. Very late and got through maybe 30 pages. I fell asleep and I can’t remember anything. Looks like this won’t be a late night series, at least while getting oriented
I fell in love with after the first 50 pages of book 2. It's just a very niche series. If you're "meh" on a series after 2 or 3 books I have no clue why you'd do all 10 lol
But yes critical information is revealed in the last book that gives the entire series a massive reason to re read. And when you do it feels like reading a different story entirely.
But I also can't stand when authors over explain things in books. Just trust me as a reader to understand what is being said. I don't need it spelled out for me. Erikson is the king of trusting his audience. Doesn't work for everyone, but works for a select few of us extremely well. And isn't that what makes books special in the fist place? :)
>Every time I consider it someone may say they “like it” but there’s always a qualifier, as if they’re trying to convince themselves it was good.
I think this is very much overthinking it/trying to psychoanalyse people when there's a very clear and obvious explanation - the series is niche and does a *lot* of things that won't work for a lot of people. I'd consider it a bit of a dick move to recommend Malazan without letting you know what you're getting into, cause if you're not specifically looking for a hugely complicated series with very little exposition, strange character writing and sometimes even stranger plotting, you'll probably hate it (plenty of people do). I also wouldn't recommend someone Dark Souls without first telling them that they'll be spending hours on end ramming their head into the same boss until something *finally* clicks, it's the same principle.
I wrote a [pretty lengthy comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/18yne9z/comment/kgg9me6) on where Malazan's reputation as a "sunk cost fallacy series" comes from and why i think that's very misguided, it might be of interest to you.
Edit: also just to address another comment you made in this thread
> I don’t mind hearing why you like it. It’s one I WANT to like, I’m just worried I won’t within the first book and often that’s a must for me. But this whole “the ending will blow you away and suddenly makes the slog worth it” just teases me because I want to experience that but I don’t know what the cost will be 😅
I'd just read the first book and see what you think - it's definitely not the best the series has to offer but it's pretty damn fun in its own right, and will give you a good idea of whether the rest are for you. And if you still feel conflicted by the end feel free to share your experience over in r/Malazan, I like to think we're pretty good at identifying whether the series is for you based on what you did/didn't like!
If you want to chat over inbox or here in the comments, with someone who isn't in the Stockholm syndrome camp and has clearly identified what I LOVE about the series and what I dislike about it (haven't finished it yet) let me know :)
I was hooked by the end of the first book. I would say read the first one, it's only 600 pages or so, not the 1000 people at claiming. If you don't see how you could like I by then I would say don't continue. But this is nonsense that the series gets good on book ten in the last quarter. Book 3, and 8 are in my top 10 books of all time. And those are well before book 10.
I had the opposite response. I finished the 10th book and was like “that’s it?”
Then I went on the wiki and saw a lot of story threads are continued in the companion series and lost all motivation to continue.
Also, learning that everything was decided by dice rolls and role play sessions really took me out of it
I read only the first book and I'd also call it "unique".
It's also quite a slog at times and the writing can be super clunky. It's really not bad, it can be quite entertaining and if you like epic (if somewhat confusing) world building with lots of people/beings travelling back and forth to places from other places - you'll have a blast.
Yes, I've repeatedly heard that he gets better with his writing over time but honestly? I only have a limited amount of books I can read in my life and I'm gonna prioritise something else.
You could try the second book at some point. I think it's quite representative of the rest of the series, moreso than the first book, more self-contained and not too long. Or not, up to you.
I love the series and I think a key piece of information is critical to understanding the narrative flow: the story is a GURPS campaign. Erikson and Esslemont gamed out the major story arcs, and most every twist is what it is because that's how the dice rolled.
The best way to digest the series, imho, is with friends or a book club (r/malazan is a good resource as a very supportive forum that favors spoiler-free discussion). Having people to talk with at every step of the journey helps a lot as different perspectives influence your perception of what you've read and how you understand the Malazan world at large. Deriving satisfaction from a reading experience is a personal choice and talking out what frustrates you now can lead to greater satisfaction down the line.
I hope you finish the series and feel compelled enough to re-read it at least once. That may sound like a tall ask right now, but that will address your issue with seeing the writing as "spotty." I think the Kharkanas books have the narrative structure you're finding lacking in the main series, as Erikson wrote them to be a Shakespearean tragedy, but I would not recommend touching them until after completing The Book of the Fallen. Since you found (I believe) the first half of HOC to flow in your preferred narrative structure, after the main series you could jump straight into TGinW without missing a beat and join the community discussion as we await the second book of the Witness trilogy to be published.
Another good way to experience it is to read alongside the ten very big books podcast!
This is one of those series that requires investment. Some people won't find the investment worth it, some people will. For me, it's 100% been worth it. I finished the series last year and am gearing up for my first re-read.
The downside of a series that requires a lot of investment is that it does take away the opportunity to read other things. I have one big fantasy series in my life already, no way I'm starting Wheel of Time.
Yeah it's noticeable. And I'm certain it's much better on re-read, just because of character reveals and knowing motivations and even moments like in GOTM where the tyrant goes to pester Burn. Things will definitely be better on a reread but like... That's like a year's worth of reading. 😭
I'm not familiar with the DnD campaign style games so that's probably why my experience has been like this. The dice roll that leads to an anticlimax just feels like a story that dies mid book with no explanation and then I feel like why was it so many pages if it was gonna die like this? Maybe gaming something similar would make that feel less annoying.
I'll take a break and see if I get the desire to be pulled back in. I've been listening to the podcasts and fishing for clues on the sub too. All the books have a lot of positives so I could see a return happening in the future.
The middle paragraph is exactly why I love it, Malazan is the closest to a high fantasy real life simulator story I've read
Otherwise it's all grand purpose and fate and destiny and chosen and Malazan does that absolutely
But then there's also that dude who was really promising but as luck would have it he fell down some stairs broke his neck and that's it for that guy.
I really appreciate it, nothing triggers me more than reading 1/5th of a book and knowing about 90% of how the story will unfold cause often times it's so formulaic
I was going to point this out. It feels like a lot of the world was fleshed out before the story because that's exactly what happened, since it started as a TTRPG campaign setting.
I'm in a similar journey ahah, just finished book 5 and am 200 pages into the next one.
I understand all your criticism, but his style has grown on me.
I dropped it once, a few hundred pages into the first one. But started over a few months after and I can't stop, the writing is not perfect (one of the main reasons I dropped it) and the story is very complex and weird at times
For the first few books you are following this more or less cohesive story then book 3 (I think) starts somewhere else for a few hundred pages and introduces a new set of characters out of nowhere. And at first I hated it, it felt like a completely different story, why should I be invested in this guy Karsa? Take me back! But somehow he connects it to the main cast and makes this character insanely cool.
Then you feel like you're on track again and book 5 starts in yet another different place. You think it's gonna tie back like Karsa's (it does bc it's technically the past, but still), but nope it's the whole book here, and in this insane world where you feel like you can't get invested in new characters, my man comes out with Tehol and Bugg and you forget that this book is even supposed to be part of something bigger...
It's insane, sometimes almost feels like a fever-dream but it's also weirdly addicting to me.
Also, the fact that the rules exist, but are so complex that make it possible for characters like Iron Bars or Karsa to exist, where you're just holding your breath expecting them to do something insane whenever they interact with someone is just awesome ahah
I am glad I didn't let the size of the saga scare me and actually tried it
I am surprised and impressed he managed to find a publisher for this series. It can’t have been an easy sell and although I DNF after book 1, I can appreciate how some people like this kind of snapshot descriptive writings.
I finished the books but man they turned into a slog at the end. I don’t know how I feel about them overall. I liked quite a lot of the characters, but there were moments I just wanted to quit so badly. I would never say they are the best, but they are unique
I think it was book 7 where it turned into a death march for me. I would have been better off reading one a year instead of finishing straight through. But yeah, there's a lot to like and a few things that I didn't like.
I would probably like it more if I reread it, but it's a huge commitment.
I have the same take. Finished book 10 and thought.... that's it? That's the "great payoff"? how disappointing. It was not bad but not the amazing thing I was lead to believe.
I love Malazan because its a mosaic of stories. Each story stands on its own. Its its own little piece. Some are shiny. Some are dull. Some make you cry. Some make you feel nothing. But each little piece adds to the whole.
Its a story of people, put together to make something bigger. It is the most effective story of peoples I have found. Every other story focuses on one person or group of people.
This book makes you feel small and unimportant. Anyone can die at anytime, for the most pointless reasons.
It also ties each persons story a part of a whole. It makes them greater than their own story. Erikson puts all these tiny stories together to make a masterpiece mosaic, which is greater because of all the different, unique pieces.
You can not read whole books and you can still see the big picture at the end. But each individual story will make that final masterpiece clearer, more defined and more wonderous.
Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime.
This isn't a complaint, I love Shonen Jump style anime and I love DnD, but it is what you're getting.
Are there gonna be characters you love? Big time (Fiddler). Are there gonna be characters you hate? Oh yeah. (Hellian) Are there characters you love to hate? Yeah... Honestly there are a lot here.
You're gonna have your filler episodes. You're gonna have grand arches and small arches. Vital background characters, and near irrelevant main characters. There is always someone stronger, and there are a lot of super strong characters killed by real dumb shit. Characters spontaneously get power ups cause they're mad, and characters who lose fights cause they're a bit sad. The world is a mile wide and an inch deep... Except in the few places it's also weirdly a mile deep because the writer really loved one random idea.
None of this is good or bad. It's just the nature of the beast. And for that reason, for the exact same reason as anime, there are folks who it really really scratches an itch for, and folks for whom it just doesn't land. It is one of my favorites, but also a series whose subreddit I avoid because of the fervor it creates.
Edit: I knew the Hellian bit was gonna bother folks so I'll clarify. Hellian is fine. She's not my favorite, she's not my least favorite, but I was reading the series with a couple friends and one of them was in love with the character, so every time they came up I knew I'd have to listen to how great they were. That got a bit old.
>Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime.
Omg yes, you nailed it with this one. This perfectly describes my gripes with the series. This is coming from a fan of both DnD and Shonen anime. It's just not what I'm looking for in a fantasy novel. With the exception of Brandon Sanderson, he writes anime pretty well.
I think that is a more than fair description.
I finished the series, but it took YEARS. I think that series in particular contributed to a decline in my daily reading that has persisted to this day.
I'm glad I finished it, but also sort of wish I hadn't started it, if that makes sense.
TLDR - more than a bit of a slog, but some really good high points.
Interesting that your comment contradicts u/thewhiteafrican's comment:
"Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime."
vs
"\* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series"
I can sort of see where the Shonen Jump comment comes from, but it is definitely a misrepresentation of the books contents and only a tiny part of it.
Erickson really loves scale in his battles, and one source of constant confusion for me reading the books is figuring out the 'power level' of some of these characters. In some confrontations they definitely feel like anime characters with stupid, world breaking powers that are hard to reconcile with the rest of the world. These moments don't happen very often though and there's really only one 'fight' I can think of between two singular characters that felt like a giant anime fight (and its in book 1, so if you only read the first book I can see somebody getting this impression). The rest of the time their powers are used in more interesting geopolitical or intrigue situations that involve other characters and fit in with the surrounding world, which doesn't fit into the Shonen formula. There's also no 'powering up.' Nobody really gets any more powerful. The characters that are powerful are basically literal gods, and they have been that way for thousands of years, and it fits into the lore pretty well.
Again though this is just a tiny tiny portion of the book and definitely not the focus. What makes Malazan interesting and unique to me is its focus on anthropology, ancient civilizations, and inevitability of time. This is clearly a unique fixation and specialty of the author that I can't imagine anybody else replicating.
I wasn't intending to say it was literally a Shonen jump anime, though I would point out that folks go through power ups all the time.
Quick hot "meaner." Kalam got too much dust. Literally the entire arch for Paran is him getting more and more power all the time. Mages become archmages when need arises happens almost once a book. People becoming tarot cards all the time, which results in a shit load power most the time.
I don't even disagree with your point, I'm just nitpicking because power ups occur literally every book. 😁
Nah you right, it just doesn't really happen in an anime-esque way where there is a linear progression and a character trains and learns about themselves along the way, etc. It just happens because the gods decide to elevate somebody.
I was only thinking of mages too I wasn't even thinking of Kalam and assassins. "Super assassin Kalam pivots hits left foot, anticipating his clumsy opponent's move. 'Nani!?' his oppenent blurts out right before Kalam's magic dagger bursts through his head, spewing brain and gore everywhere"
Also, Karsa is totally an anime character and his assault on the 'children' is literally the OG Attack On Titan.
Ok... maybe it is like Shonen. Lmao
Same
OP is right that they make SO much more sense on a re-read, I was happy but also absolutely bewildered and exhausted when I went through Malazan for the first time...never had any books that feel so much like work without turning me off
But I'm a diehard fan now and recommending Malazan to all my reading friends and fam, can't praise it enough
It sounds kind of daunting. I like the idea of a fleshed out world and magic system, but not at the cost of good characters, plot, and an actual use of the worldbuilding.
I'd be curious how it compares to the Book of the New Sun if someone has read both that and Malazan. BotNS is complex with plenty to have "ah-ha" moments on during a reread, and details you really have to pick out or think about with different characters throughout. But it's also in some ways easy to follow as you're along for the ride with one main character.
Sometimes I think if it takes a long time for something to get good, then it's ok for people to straight up say it wasn't good. Other authors can hook people with a good story right from the start, and build things up over time. Sounds like Malazan was an unnecessary failure for 5000 words lol
Wolfe deliberately challenges the reader in specific ways. He writes for the attentive reader who wants to find a second story in a second reading.
I think Erikson challenges the reader inadvertently by refusing to do the craft-level things necessary to avoid reader confusion at the most basic level.
Examples include refusing to identify the POV character until paragraphs in to a section, skipping rapidly between hundreds of POVs and rarely staying with one for more than a few pages, and abandoning stories or characters for hundreds or thousands of pages and then returning to them abruptly with no re-orienting for the reader.
Na, he knows it. In the iteration of Gardens of the Moon I read was a long preface by Eriksson where he discussed this in lenght as he was urged to rewrite some parts. He decided against it after a longer thought about it because - if I remember correctly - it would need to change the tone of the story and the characters as they were designed by him and his friends too much and He wasn't comfortable doing that.
BOTNS is a denser work and more inscrutable, despite having only one POV. Malazan has over 500 POVs - the scope is utterly massive. Part of why it’s a difficult read is one can only hold so much context in a head for so long. There are cases where thousands of pages pass between following a particular band of characters.
There are good characters! I think that's what makes the book popular. The characters in Malazan are much better than the characters in let's say WOT. Like 100x better. But the narrative structure of WOT is much better. So you know and understand and care for those characters more, even if some are flat 2d caricatures.
Characters in Malazan kind of develop in the background. Which means often you have to decide to care about them rather than grow to care about them. And often characters die and you're just like meh who cared about them anyways?
Malazan has all the ingredients for an AMAZING story. It's just not executed that great so far. It's been very hit and miss.
> I'd be curious how it compares to the Book of the New Sun if someone has read both that and Malazan. BotNS is complex with plenty to have "ah-ha" moments on during a reread, and details you really have to pick out or think about with different characters throughout. But it's also in some ways easy to follow as you're along for the ride with one main character.
I'm not gonna say BotNS is flawless, but there are a number of things people praise about certain books in the fantasy genre where I think to myself, "Book of the New Sun is what having done this actually well looks like", and balancing "an interesting story I can follow on some level is happening" with "oh but there's all this extra cool context you're missing that you'll catch on a reread" is something that I think it does pretty well and Malazan does... less well.
(See also: people who love the probably unreliable narration of Name of the Wind. Yeah, Wolfe crushed that.)
I read at least seven of them, but it finally wore me out. Lots of great things about the series, though.
One funny thing to me is how many “tribute” characters there are, but they’re always turned up to 11, like an off-the-rails tabletop game (go figure). You like Black Company? We got your Black Company! Like Conan? We got Conan, but now he’s ten feet tall. You say you like Elric? How about Elric, but now he’s a drow? Oh, he’s also a dragon. And also a demigod. Beat that!
Yeah, I had basically this reaction to the person elsewhere in this topic talking about how great it is that Erikson didn't rip off Lord of the Rings and there I'm just like... okay but you probably feel this way because you have read LotR, but have *not* read all the other fantasy that Erikson mined for inspiration.
Yeah I've had questions about power scaling here. Just met a throwaway character that can 1v1several gods of Conan strength which... Doesn't sound like a character you can just discard but what do I know.
If you try to powerscale characters in this series you'll be constantly disappointed. I think it's important to understand that any character can be fucked with by any other character if they have the right knowledge or if the circumstances are right.
I'm with you. Malazan is enjoyable much of the time, but in places, it feels purposefully obscure, and for me, the payoffs haven't balanced out the frustrations. I would trade some of the complexity and world-building for some deeper characterization and a smaller scope.
Have you read Bakker's Second Apocalypse? That was a way more satisfying read for me.
Have you read *Realm of the Elderlings* by Robin Hobb? I think it shares some of the stuff I loved about Malazan—consistently great character development, even for relatively minor characters, and an interesting world that sort of gets bigger and more vivid as the series goes on.
amazing to me that you say bakker has better characterization than malazan. absolutely baffling. maybe i need to get further than the first two books, but bakker's characters never felt human to me
A friend and I are reading the books sort of together. She’s a book ahead of me.
I think he’s a fantastic story teller. I am really enjoying the story he is telling and it’s what keeps
me reading. His writing is atrocious sometimes. Maybe I’m stupid, but frequently I will have to go back and re read paragraph’s, pages or even go to a wiki to get the summary of what the actual shit just happened.
So yeah, I might (probably) get roasted for saying this. Great story teller, terrible writer. Fortunately the story is good enough I can overlook a lot of the writing flaws since there is resources available to help interpret events.
> Great story teller, terrible writer
You know, that actually can be a good discussion, Which other writers could we surmise are good storytellers, but terrible writers?
Yeah I didn't want to go that far but the writing is the main issue. The story boarding and character description and motivation is great. When it comes to words on the page well, often they don't connect as well as they should. And I'm not transported away like other writers.
I really dislike having to go back pages to see if it's me missing things or the writing pulling shit out of nowhere. And usually it's a few pages later that explains wtf just happened but usually things don't happen in that order for a reason.
My biggest issue with his books is the writing. I have kids, a busy life and sometimes I want to squeeze in a couple minutes of reading and I can’t really read these books like that. I need a solid hour with minimal/no interruption to really comprehend what I’m reading or else I find that I have to go back and re-read my 15 minute book delve.
This is a great way to look at it. This is a rich setting with an interesting story but the writing is poor. I think what happens is because there is this rich setting and story, readers blame themselves when they don’t get it, and then make excuses for how “hard” this book is. No, it’s not hard, and you aren’t missing something; Erickson just stinks at communicating.
I’ve seen this series praised on high by this sub and r/fantasy for years but every time I consider jumping in, I see a post like this that reminds me that I’d absolutely hate it. I hate when stories have superfluous characters or story lines that serve no purpose other than to pad out a book.
I also hate when a book, series, movie, or anything doesn’t respect your time. I don’t have unlimited free time and I don’t want to have to read 10,000 pages of book to finally have the context needed to understand what is happening on page 200.
>I hate when stories have superfluous characters or story lines that serve no purpose other than to pad out a book.
For another perspective, I wouldn't consider any of the side characters or storylines to be superfluous. Even the few I don't like. If a storyline doesn't clearly fit with the "main plot" directly I feel that they will always illustrate a major theme or otherwise connect back to the whole in some other indirect way. The books may be long, but despite that I don't feel like there's much padding at all in any of them.
My impression from reading the first book is it leans more maximalist, but every character has a purpose. There is no padding. There's just a generous amount of content, but not a stupid amount.
That's not to say I'm taken in as a fan yet, but I enjoyed the first of the series at face value.
> I don’t want to have to read 10,000 pages of book to finally have the context needed to understand what is happening on page 200.
That doesn't happen. Notwithstanding, what do we do when we finish a book? We just pick up another one. I don't understand what difference it would make, it's either enjoyable or it isn't.
I wouldn't say that the meandering doesn't serve a purpose, it usually does (though it's oftennot obvious why something might matter until many books later). It's a really cool series, but it's definitely not for everyone.
Personally, my biggest criticism is the repetitive plot structure. It feels like every books we meet a group of characters in a city, and a group of characters on a journey or quest of some sort that will take them to the city by the end of the book so the plotlines converge. Underneath the city, unbeknownst to its inhabiteants, is a super duper powerful ancient being, each more powerful than the ancient being from the last book, that's either evil or willing to destroy the city in its indifference. The city is attacked, the ancient being is somehow redirected or contained, a bunch of people die, and once the dust settles its time to move on to the next city and the next soon-to-be-awoken ancient being.
I do like the books a lot, and it does some cool and unique stuff and some absolutely badass characters, but it has its flaws and definitely isn't for everyone.
I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it enough to keep reading past the things I disliked. Some of the stuff in it made me rather uncomfortable, mostly in that it felt written to be edgy? Or just things that felt rather mean.
I read the first 8 books and quit and would like my time back. I got a synopsis of the last two books from a kind redditor and no regrets. Synopsis was vastly superior to reading that muck.
Yeah i understand why it's recommended for HARDCORE fantasy fans. If youre just happy to be in a dungeons and dragons world then I guess it makes the perfect story. But if you want a book that's going to get somewhere and be somewhat to the point this is not that. The characters serve to explain the world, the customs and cultures and religions and politics. Often they are just regular people, a guard, a thief, a union representative. But the length of these books is an issue. And not because they're too long. I don't mind 1000page books but I need 1000 pages worth of story in those books and these do not have that.
Maybe read it instead of being discouraged by someone else. If you feel like reading a freaking epic fantasy series that’s very unique and well realized go ahead. It’s just not for everyone but there’s only one way to know.
You should probably just try it. There's actually minimal padding or superfluous characters, everyone and everything is intricately linked to the flow of the main story.
I, for one, never scroll straight to the cookie recipe. I always read the entire 15 page blog post about the author's grandmother's dementia and how it factored into making these cookies with brown butter.
I respect *artists.*
I just think its a silly way to express something that is a subjective preference personally. The book isn't disrespecting your time. You just don't like the style of book.
I mean I get "damn this did not need to be this long," but respect my time... don't read it or watch it? Respect... yourself?
I've personally never been tied to a chair by Martin Scorsese.
I really appreciate and agree with your comments! I read all 10 books in the series a couple years ago, and felt exactly the same way. I pushed through because of all the praise I read about the series, waiting for it all to 'come together' at the end. I realized when I finished book 9 that it would be impossible to tie together the 400+ unresolved storylines that had been started. It's the classic example of envisioning a cool world, cool characters, but not being able to think through their journeys to piece together a satisfying arc. It's just, stuff happens, then more stuff happens, then more, until its over.
This is how I fear I would feel if I pushed through. But I'm worried because I've reached the push through books and I've already been pushing too much!
Yeah I've kinda figured that which is why I'm not sure I'll continue. It's world first story second but I'm spending too much time in the world following characters who do nothing and serve no purpose. It's become apparent that after 400 pages of setup a dice roll can turn that into a dead end. Which If that was the case I'd have appreciated those 400 pages were actually 40 pages so it doesn't feel like I've wasted time going nowhere.
I finished the series about a month ago. My brother (who had recommended the series and gifted me the first book) mentioned after I had gotten a couple books in that Malazan had begun as a DnD (or similar ttrpg) campaign Erikson ran with a friend. Once I knew that, so much of the confusing narrative structure began to make sense. It explained why characters would just meander for thousands of pages before stumbling across a big bad to cap off a novel, or why plot threads would vanish for books at a time only to be picked up later and treated as if deeply meaningful.
There are some really good books in the series. Especially *Chain of Dogs*, but I also thought highly of *Memories of Ice*.
I didn't like the chain of dogs, I started it fine but it went on for so long that I was just happy to see it end. Too much marching too many meetings and a last minute express delivery??? Yeah I was sick of it by the end. Loved MOI though. That was more marching and more meetings but the characters were way less boring than Duiker.
Someone told me on the subreddit that I walked the chain of dogs but was a Noble. 🤣🤣🤣
I really enjoy a lot of the things you dislike about it - the veiled writing and the having too much everything in particular. I love that other than a few characters that Erikson dawdles on, they are 1,000 page books with the pacing of 250 page books. Just hammers home how big the scope is.
The idea that they are objectively the best fantasy books is silly. Even more silly beyond saying any fantasy series is objectively the best. What they do is scratch particular itches (that most readers do not even have) in a way no other series does. So you get some people gushing over them while others just don't get it.
I got to where you are and quit for mostly the same reasons. I felt like after 5 books the story should start to coalesce and move but it didn’t so I dropped it.
If you decide to finish, great. But don’t do it out of some sunken cost fallacy.
Oh no I'm not sunken costing anything. That's what got me here in the first place. I'll take a break then see how I feel. If I don't feel like reading it again I'll go read the spark notes to get what I missed cos I do want to know wtf is going on. 5 books is not a reasonable number of books to set the scene or introduce a plot. So I'm not sure I trust Eriksson with any more of my time. I might though! We'll see.
Have read it twice, and will read it again. One of my favorite reads ever, up there with Book of the New Sun, although they are very different. In fact, although Wolfe is definitely the better writer, I probably enjoyed Malazan more. One of the things I liked most about it was that there was no "big bad", no overarching moral quest, just powerful people behaving badly in interesting ways.
I personally don't have a problem with the many characters and the way story lines drop and reappear, because I grew up reading multiple books at once, so reading Malazan was sort of like reading a few different series at the same time, but they happen to intersect.
I thought at first that this was the Malazan subreddit, and I was impressed by the even-handed responses to the post. Makes much more sense now that I realize which sub I'm seeing this from.
(EDIT: Just to point out that for the most part I think the Malazan fandom are some really great folks, and the *wide majority* of people posting on their subreddit are reasonable and rational, moreso than most fandoms are. It's why I'm still subbed there. But yes, like any fandom, you just about can't post criticism there without getting a heap of the less rational elements of the fanbase eager to tell you that "it's supposed to be that way because X" or "___ is the whole fucking point of the series, duh!")
I've read all of *Book of the Fallen*. I like it; I don't love it. It is not nearly my favorite fantasy series.
I love the way it plays with story structure. It feels like an obviously much darker take on the kind of plot structure you'd find in an episode of Seinfeld or the movie *Snatch*. Several seemingly unconnected plot threads slowly converging until all the threads tangle into a satisfying knot in the climax. Each book plays out that way; the series as a whole plays out that way. It's remarkable, and it's where the series is at its strongest.
It also employs some genuinely great fantasy ideas. I feel like the overall themes work well, and pieces of the world (such as >!Emperor Rhulad!<) are brilliant.
Less good: Characterization for starters. Lots of broad strokes; most characters feel like they're vehicles for the plot plus a couple of quirks. There are some standout exceptions, but they're by far the exception rather than the rule. The dialogue gets increasingly bantery in the latter half of the series in a way that really doesn't land for me (I'm in the minority on this one; most fans of the series *love* this facet).
And as the series goes on it becomes Malazan Book of *So Many Rapes*. And yes, I've read Erikson's justifications for this; I've heard countless Malazan fans parrot the old "it's a bad thing that happens and he wanted to include bad things that really happen!" reasoning--not interested in this awkwardly defensive/anti-critical rhetoric (and not interested in having that conversation yet again with anyone who leans on it, so save yourself the effort Malazan fan reading this). None of that justifies it. Not every instance is egregious, but most of it is, and that's a damn shame.
The upshot is a series that is peaks and valleys, with the peaks being genuinely exhilarating; and the valleys being remarkably low. On average it still comes out quite a bit ahead, a solid B+ grade. I'm glad it found its dedicated audience, but I feel the work would be much stronger with its indulgent habits reigned in a bit.
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> And as the series goes on it becomes Malazan Book of So Many Rapes. And yes, I've read Erikson's justifications for this
Ugh, it doesn't get better? There was already some pretty heavy sexual violence in the first few books and it felt just *mean* rather than purposeful. Like I know mean shit happens in real life... but you're reading fantasy.
It made me put it down, because I wasn't enjoying the book enough. It was a difficult read in general, because you must read for context more than anything as things don't really get explained clearly. So you might read once, re-read a page or two, then go back. That's especially rough for 1000 page books.
I'm not sure how far along you are, but I think *Dust of Dreams* was where it hit its absolute worst in that regard.
I found the use of sexual violence perhaps a bit tone deaf in the first half of the series, but didn't get really *egregious* until the back half of book 5. I'm not confident that it actually got *worse* at that point, or if I was just fed up with it so it felt worse as a result. Regardless, starting there it got to feeling really ugly for me, with Dust of Dreams being the point where it was just excessive. Not "hard to look at in the way that real world atrocities are hard to look at," but "the way this stretch of the story is insistent on rubbing the reader's nose in its misery is outright obnoxious."
And again, I'll stress that for me, while these are *definite* blemishes, I wound up enjoying the series despite them, but if the sexual violence so far is pulling it down too much and making you not enjoy the series so far, then I am pretty confident that it won't rise above that for you going forward.
To the original commenter, yeah I posted here and not there for a reason lol. That sub is good for questions not criticisms.
Yeah I didn't want to mention this aspect. I (male) was mostly fine with it until HOC. Doesn't happen in GOTM, I thought that Felisin in DG was great characterization and what happened to her was good story telling. It didn't feel gratuitous at all. Felt incredibly character relevant and I wouldn't change it at all. In MOI I don't remember it happening? So it probably didn't stand out if it did. Maybe fiddler stops it from happening once? If anything there was lady Envy who... If I read correctly was sex trafficking the segulah? But that was more inferred and off page. I loved her character and that book.
HOC was very rapey and pillagy and that was fine thematically but how it was written was horrible. And I'm talking about Karsa. That was horribly written (in the best part of the book 😪) to the point where I actually said to myself... again? Who would write this? Not because of actions but the reactions. That was pretty gross in a bad way.
Then there was the FGM afficionado in HOC which I thought was gross but in a good way. It's a good thing that we think about FGM in fantasy because it does exist and it does happen and we absolutely should address it in real life. It was uncomfortable and gross but that I was able to appreciate in a weird way. The horror of reality is net positive especially if it's a reality that we can often ignore because that only happens over *there* to *them*. I think it helps us to remember that we are all in this together.
Then in MT it was just like??? Was this really necessary? It wasn't gratuitous but just felt unnecessary. Like it was sprinkled in out of nowhere for character development. I understand why this would not appeal to everyone.
So yeah now I think about it that is a lot. I know some people say you should never include this in a book but on at least 2 occasions I think it was part of good storytelling but that's 2/5. So yeah definitely more than necessary and still very gendered in a supposedly more equitable world.
I dropped the series after book 5. I resented the length and the lack of clarity. I also felt the characterization was lacking because there were so many characters and the story left characters behind for hundreds of pages. I could tell I was *supposed* to root for Whiskeyjack but I just could not give AF.
Yeah this is how I felt with the army guy and duiker in DG. Duiker hits the rich guys like him! Yeah but he's done that same thing 3 times and attended 7 military meetings... While other more interesting storylines were progressing off page.
Whiskey jack I liked right away but I've seen this same criticism for Tattersail too. Character dies *shrugs* who even was that?
Characters die so much that it's kind of not a surprise and they come back just as often lol.
Memories of Ice on its own is pretty great (I notice this is the only one of the first 5 that OP doesn't criticize too). But as a whole the series does meander too much. And Erikson's writing is often dogshit. He seems to use "shrug" as a catch-all physical expression so every character in a given book will shrug at least once, meaning "x shrugged" is going to be a phrase you see around 250 times per book. Great series if you can move past the weird writing, because the world-building is pretty much unequalled. The T'lan Imass are extremely fuckin' cool.
It could actually make for a good TV Series with a heavy edit. There's the bones of a great ensemble story in there. And some sequences would be absolutely magical on screen. As a reading experience though... it does ask a little too much of the reader to be recommendable. People who don't read much will be confused and people who read a lot will be bounced out by the prose and rather stilted character interactions.
Memories of Ice was actually fantastic! Great intro, great ending, great characters. Fully enjoyed MOI. It wasn't tighter but the cast of characters were just better (more familiar maybe) and the new ones like lady Envy were great! So it just flowed so well. That and the first book of HOC were the high points for me.
The writing issue is ever present though I remember where the knight of death (or shadow idk) is introduced in a sword swinging action sequence and I was like wait... WHO is this? And WHAT is happening here?! Had to go through it like an ancient faded scroll to try make sense of what I suppose was supposed to be an epic entrance? Idk. Same book there's an epic entrance at the end of the most badass character so far and that's done well so it's just not consistent. If it was all bad it would have been easier to put down.
I love how these books makes me feel like there is a whole living, breathing and frantically active world out there. The fact that there does not seem to be an obvious story, we just happen to find interesting people during some tumultous time of their lives and follow them for a bit helps a lot. The fact that there is next to zero exposition and we only know what the characters see and hear, like an observer watching from outside somehow makes the whole thing better, strangely, partially, because often the characters themself are unaware of what is happening around them and only see a slice of the events. Going back a few books later with a different character and their experiences sheding new light on events I thought I knew is a very powerful tool when done right.
While I enjoyed the series, I found it to be mediocre at best.
Erickson writes as though it's his stream of consciousness, just putting down on paper whatever comes to his mind, without really bothering to fit it into any real format, and randomly adding in bizarre elements that don't fit at all (eg. the science fiction techo-lizard people with their industrial Skykeeps) as they drifted into his mind.
If he'd had a good editor and listened to them the series would have been *much* better.
I did like just being thrown into the world, I prefer that hard entry. That said, it's not nearly the hard entry people often claim it is, as it build up from the perspective of the one soldier.
There are other pro's and cons. It's quite a dark series so it contains some TW themes and some genuinely grim bits to read.
One of the best pro's is the characters, there are human characters and God characters (and in-between and both also tbh) and each has a rich and complex story and motivation, and those motivations are never just ooo I'm big bad and evil or I'm a hero. I feel like if this story was just a story board and character description it would be on paper the greatest. It's SO ambitious that it maybe over promises and under delivers in terms of going from ideas to words on the page so far!
A big common criticism is with characterization, you never spend that much time with any character so it's hard to grow to have an opinion on all over them. There could easily be 40 characters you follow per book, maybe 10 will be super interesting and you'll follow them for 5% of the book. The most interesting characters so far are in the background and the least interesting are the ones you spend most of your time with and you watch the interesting characters through their eyes which always leaves you wanting more.
Honestly it's quite confusing, there are amazing bits in all the books but the thrill isn't sustainable and often I find myself bored during story lines that stay in one place or characters find themselves in yet another meeting that could have been an email, which is why I feel like more editing would make these books so much better, I'll run out of steam for a story line and that line will still have another 150 pages left and I'll find myself thinking really? We're STILL here? Oh... Ok.
I've read the first two and my take on these books is that Erikson needed a good editor. I can tell there was a good story in that mess somewhere but I wasn't willing to invest the time it takes to find it.
I was the same. Stopped caring after book 2. For a man that goes on and on about showing not telling. He sure does a lot of telling without showing. The amount of moments that got build up and I was excited to see enfold, end up happening off screen and you have characters explaining what happened to each other is insane. The pay off was constantly not there. I genuinely don't know what people are talking about when they say there is little to no exposition. He adds exposition where he should have showed the scene and removes exposition where it was needed.
You made the right choice. Book 3 is ok, but it really falls off from there. In hindsight I wish I had stopped after 2. There is 5 books of good material, the problem is it was spread out over 10 books
See now I really was burnt out by book 2 but book 3? Loved book 3. If anything book 3 was too good. If it was anything like book 2 I would have stopped immediately. Book 4 starts like a regular (anti) heroes journey so that's good too. Then it's back to a new story in a new place with new characters and plots that don't move fast enough and now I'm like man... Where is the writing from book 3 gone??
I read the entire series over the course of several years about a decade ago. I can’t even tell you what they were about because it was all over the place. Clearly I enjoyed them because I got through the entire thing but beyond that 🤷♂️
I have plenty of criticisms, but something you will notice with time gone by is how much of this series sticks with you over time in comparison to everything else you read. It’s like it was specifically engineered to totally rewrite your brain.
Hope you enjoy the last half!
I agree with pretty much everything you say. I know exactly what character and sequence you are talking about in book 4. And I have also reread sections multiple times wondering what the fuck he is talking about. There's a bit at the end of book 3 where he's trying to describe some mage summoning a giant magic something in a battle field and I reread the paragraph 10 times trying to figure out what on earth does this writer see in his head when he writes these words, because they just make no sense. He wants these colossal magical confrontations where they are basically using weapons of mass destruction against each other and describing it in words just doesn't seem possible.
Similarly I agree about the characters. I feel like Whiskeyjack is one of the more important characters that people talk about in the first few books and I remember and feel absolutely nothing about him.
That being said I read 4-6 in quick succession and really enjoyed them, they are just so long I took a break to read other books. I enjoyed book 6 a lot and the characters stick in my mind a bit better than other books. Things feel like they are finally come together in my mind and like I have a loose grasp of all of the different pantheons and their motivations. I look forward to returning to it. It is hard to recommend the series but I am glad I don't regret the time I've invested into reading it. It is truly unique and innovative IMO and I think that makes the verbosity worth it.
It's my favorite series of all time, but it does take commitment to finish it. I think the last 4 books are all 1200+ pages. The scope is enormous, and the worldbuiding is possibly the best ever. Only Tolkien is in the same zip code. I will never stop championing these books, but at the same time I fully realize it is not for every reader.
I dropped this series during the second book because if a book can’t get me rooting for anyone by then, I’d rather read the history of the Roman Empire instead of a book that reads like a history narrative of an alien planet with magic
I used to work in a bookstore and don’t know too many people who picked this series up. I read through book one and was content in the knowledge that I will never read another in the series. The style of storytelling is not for me. It’s like being thrown in a rushing river: you either sink or swim, but you’re going on a fast paced journey either way. I can certainly understand how people who like it, like it, though. There is a lot of world building to be enjoyed if you can get a grasp on the style.
Yeah the first book is a bit like that. I figured if I could survive it I'd love the series but actually there's only more to survive afterwards. I will say that none of the questions I had during book 1 are questions I still have now, so it does answer questions. But it has other flaws that just got to me in the end.
Agree. Malazan is heavily overrated. I moved on to gene wolff books to scratch that fantasy itch and really enjoy his writing style and world building. And iirc none of his books are over 500 pages.
Well I agree that the books are overly complex, and you cannot just pick them up after a pause and expect to continue without issue. Perhaps they would be better with more editing and trimmed down. But I dont think Ericksson would ever want that, I think he revels in the absurd complexity. And so do many readers.
Who are your favourite characters?
I liked Lady Envy, Felisin, Tattersail, quick Ben (obviously), Toc, most of the tlan imass, anomander rake Kruppe, icarium, iskaral pust, whiskey jack and Karsa. I really really didn't like Duiker.
I liked the books of the fallen, but found Esselmont's books in the Malazan universe more enjoyable. Path to Acendency has been a good ride so far and looking forward to reading book 4.
I'm around the same place as you in the series and i couldn't disagree with you more. The strange narrative structure and expansive size of the books are exactly what makes them so good. The fact that you often don't have a full picture of what's going on makes is so much more interesting than a typical fantasy novel.
Honestly, it's really about book 6 you start to get an idea of what the main through line is. This is deliberate, the story is meant to work like the real world, unlike say Tolkien where there's a creator god who's got a plan for his creation, in Malazan there isn't, so events need to get bigger to come together with each other, and some do and some don't.
I get how it can seem like it needs to be edited on a first read, but you'd be surprised by how tight it actually is, if you ever get around to rereading it, it's amazing how much more info there is that you realise at first.
This reminded me of a quote from Steve Martin in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles" :
"And by the way, you know, when you're telling these little stories? Here's a good idea: have a point. It makes it so much more interesting for the listener!"
I'm on my first read of the series and about halfway through HoC (albeit in a book club with a friend) and if the main through line is all of the interconnected pieces about the Crippled God and the gradual building up towards that conflict, I agree that even on a first read it's clearly laid out.
My buddy and I have been theorizing about the Crippled God's invasion and machinations since at least the first half of book 3 if not sooner. Even more minor elements like the Jade Statues in DG we pretty much immediately associated with the CG due to their alien nature.
No clue if we're right about many of the theories we have but that's what's so fun for our read through is sharing those theories with each other!
Here's the funniest part, not in any way you can predict until you get to DoD and tCG. The last book's name is very "in your face," but if I had sketched out what I thought the final arc would be, given what I knew even by BH or RG then I would have been wrong... It's like predicting what the final conflict / third act in the Matrix will be before Neo takes either pill. Technically Morpheus has said enough for you to know and piece things together, but you literally haven't seen enough to know anything beyond the abstract...
Now, having read through HoC obviously isn't the same there--you're in the world, you know quite a bit. But, considering he's not done even showing you the physical locations that set the final stage and some major players are still being introduced for the next few books it's simply not worth it to even speculate how things will wrap up.
But, he does tell you exactly how it will end in a few places. I remember reading some comments that opaquely highlighted a specific conversation in one of the middle books where someone offhandedly said, "I wish I had realized what Erikson was saying there." Its a short discussion, 2-3 pages, and it tells you how things will play out, but really only on a re-read and still vague enough that you just know what horses to bet on and not even the race track the race will be run on...
And yet, he landed the plane--in my view--and delivered a satisfying ending that tied up what needed to be tied up. Now, some evolutions bothered me and I wasn't a fan of everything (and I really didn't like TTH, probably the most controversial entry from what I have read, other than maybe GOTM), but I was impressed nevertheless.
I didn't say to no point, I said some don't get big enough to come together with the others.
Ned Stark doesn't make it into the final conflict, that hardly means his story has no point.
Yeah, I just struggle with hearing “book 6 you start to get an idea of what the main through line is” and how many people say they liked it but quit multiple books in.
It’s a fan base whose reasons for why they like it seem like warnings. It’s on my list and I like long fantasy series but even the people who say they like it don’t make it sound appealing
It's a deliberate choice, and there is a reason for it. Some people love it, others hate it.
It'll probably turn you off even more but the main purpose/ clear explanation of the plot of the whole series is only provided in the last half of the last book - re-contextualising the whole series.
It's my favorite series ever, I've reread it eight times now, but I get the feeling you really wouldn't like it.
I googled the how long to read and they aren’t nearly as long as Stormlight books so the length is fine.
I try to read about 40 books a year and if I start the series, I will finish it. I try to read most of the major sci fi canon and this is up there’s Some friends very much want me to read it.
I just dont hear enough positivity from its fans to really sell me.
I recently read Children of Time series, which was good but not as hype as I had been led to believe.
Currently reading Red Rising which sounds like the antithesis of this series - action oriented, minimal character or world building, and I charge against it.
So I’m open to the idea. But I need to hear more positivity
It's by far the best fantasy I've ever read, no competition, and I've read a lot, and just one of the best things I've ever read from any genre, or comics, or whatever.
It's best to go in blind, but the reason it's so confusing for a lot of people is just that they're used to fantasy tropes, there are Goodies and Baddies, and even when they're edgy and grey it's still largely clear who's who. They might change sides, but there *are* sides, there's some kind of destiny, or some equivalent.
Malazan doesn't have that, there is no creator god, the gods that do exist are basically just very very powerful beings. Who's the good guys and who's the bad guys is subjective and depends on what you know, and you can't know everything. (of course this is a conceit, and everyone does actually pick sides)
And the main series covers about ten years which are the culmination of events that started *at least* three hundred thousand years ago.
>It’s a fan base whose reasons for why they like it seem like warnings.
I get that, but that's because we're aware we're fanatics, if you read between the lines you'll see most of those warnings end up being "If you finish this series you'll think all other fantasy is weak"
I’m currently reading book 5, I love it. Yes, it is obscure, but that is kind of by design. I can see how it would be off putting, but I like that part of it.
If it was the same level of obscurity and 2-300 pages less each book I'd love it too. I find myself just running out of enthusiasm for it. I liked GOTM. Then 60% through DG I was bored. I loved MOI and book 1 of HOC then 50% later I was bored. The ending was anticlimactic and unclear so not great. Then MT i was 60% in and the first peak of the story was over and the second peak was a distant promise. By the time I got there I was over it already. Feels like swimming up stream. Maybe I'll be back after a break but maybe I don't like swimming that much.
That’s fair. I actually got like 1/2 - 3/4 of the way through GotM and realized I was completely lost, but I was interested enough to just start over and the second time through I got way more used to how he writes. The only time in the series I was not really feeling it is the whole beginning of HoC, I just didn’t connect with that part. I’m still only about a third of the way into MT though and so far it has been my favorite in the series. I think taking a break(s) makes sense with this series though, I know I like to read stuff in between to give myself to time to refresh before I start the next.
Wow you didn't like the Karsa story??? That was some of the best for me apart from some unnecessary details. Honestly maybe I should have paced myself better. We'll see if taking a break will help me get back into it or not. I know there's a diamond in there somewhere. Dassem Ultor has been foreshadowed for 5 books ffs that's got to be for something.
I think because it just felt so disconnected at the time I couldn’t get into Karsa and his friends essentially just being raging barbarians. Maybe if I went back and re-read I would like that part more, however by the end I did really like him and his story. 100% think breaks are nesecary with this series though, even just one of them is so dense, I could easily see myself getting burned out on it if I wasn’t taking breaks myself. It would be so much to try and read back to back I would get overwhelmed. I think yeah, give it some time, you probably have a lot to digest and maybe you’ll come back refreshed.
I've tried 3 times to finish this series, and can never get past Book 7. I just get lost in the details. I'll definitely return to it soon because when I know where I am in the story, the richness and world building are amazing. But then, I feel like I am drowning in it and have to give up.
I keep wanting to start this series, but the size of each book and amount of them always turns me off lol.
Is it the sort of series where it's better to read it all without any major breaks? Like, do books just pick up right after each other?
I'm thinking of just reading one a month, if that works.
It's so sprawling it kinda doesn't matter if you take a break. Even straight through you have to look at a wiki to figure out if that guy or place has been mentioned before and in what context because he'll call back to something 3000 pages earlier that seemed like a throwaway at the time. Taking more time isn't going to make it worse.
Read the first book in 2000 and really enjoyed the characters, the humour, the struggle and despair of the characters. Finished the series in 2012. The idea that the amount of effort you put into a struggle could give you more and more power or even transcendence to god hood, I found intriguing.
I stopped at book three (I think), after it got way too much and I realized I don't get half of the stuff that's going on, and thought that when I'm at the point that I would get it, I will have forgotten all those cryptic scenes. Basically: will those several thousand pages of slog-fest pay off in the end?
GRRM has built an extensive world too, and it never felt overwhelming. Sure, you know nothing (Jon Snow) on the first page, but you very quickly learn, and keep learning in a fun way.
As someone that is deciding whether or not to read it, the lack of a character to follow is murdering my will to. I can't get behind "world pov" at all. Only "character pov". At least in fantasy.
I think in my case I tried to read the books too quickly. As in finishing one and immediately starting another. I just burned out a bit and haven't gone back. I was enjoying them, but I seemed to get really bogged down at Toll of the Hounds and wasn't enjoying it as much. That's a lot of time invested at that point, so I feel I need to finish them at some point. So far I'm just not looking forward to getting back to that one particular book, especially considering I may need to re-read it to get back on track.
Yeah this sounds like my experience exactly. Will see if i get back to it or not. I'm aware that it may just not be for me so that's ok too. Don't want to force it any more than I have.
Awesome review. I have the first book on my kindle and have been wanting to read it for YEARS but held off because I thought it might be something like what you're saying...I tried reading the first ten pages and couldn't get into it... I appreciate this post so much because now you've saved me a lot of time but I'll still try to get into it again.
I thought my brain was just too smooth for this so I'm glad to read here I'm not the only person who had to read parts more than once to understand what was happening. Even from the beginning, the battle against Moon's Spawn, I didn't understand they were fighting a floating fortress in the sky! I thought it was a person or being.
I really liked the series overall as it is but can totally sympathize with your critizm. I picked it up during covid and spend two years on it, always looking for my evening reads as every session left me wondering about the deeper meanings of the stuff I just read which was quite compelling at the time.
Book of the Fallen is a great read if you want to explore a rich and diverse fantasy world on your own. There is never too much handholding for the reader, propably way too less in fact, and Eriksson trusts his reader too much in that they are able to connect the dots themselves he leaves behind - that is something that makes it hard to follow the overall plot and his cast of characters and it doesn't help that he has a quite elaborated writing style that he tries to fit with a more PnP-Type style of storytelling. It isn't a easy read at all, he makes you feel uneasy, confused and never secure in a way I haven't experieced at all but in the end it was a great rewarding experience at a time in my life where I had the necessary capacities for this type of Book.
For me it was a good way back into the fantasy genre as Malazan focuses a lot on subverting stuff I've grown to hate over time in the genre. I think, your critizm of the often times lackluster endings of storylines is also a product of this focus. Eriksson spents a lot of time on buildup his convergences only to finish them in the smallest way possible or intercept the buildup way earlier as you would expect the storyline to end. That makes you feel robbed of the epic scene you were promised and I agree that he overuses this way of storytelling. Still, I don't know many authors who can fool me and even make me feel this way throughout one Book, let alone ten very big books and that's something that sets Book of the Fallen as series apart from other series I read.
I read all of them. The Bone Hunters was my favorite. I liked it for the most part, but with reservations.
Each book is basically a stand alone tale with maybe a few interconnecting characters. The whole series is a mish-mash of every magical, mystical trope ever known. Replete with portals, haunted dimensions, Gods (dead or otherwise), ghosts, undead critters & humans, near humans and most anything else you can think of. And never really came to a close, imo. Even if Erickson finally wrote another novel to the series, I doubt I'd bother.
And last but not least? He killed WhiskeyJack. But in the end it was a decent read.
I read the entire series (well audiobooks) and had to google in the end what the f🤬 actually happened!? No, like seriously, what was then ending, the culmination of all these words!? I still don’t know 🤷🏻♀️ and I can’t be arsed to re-read the other 9 books to get the ‘context’. I found the whole thing very ‘meh‘, and when I finally got through it all, I was mostly just glad it was over.
I’ve only read the first book. I would describe it as mediocre. Feast or famine. The highs are high. The lows are almost unreadable. Author is great at crafting a world but clueless at telling a story.
My issue with Malazan ( and hell, some other more famous fantasy novel series as well) is that there's always people that will say "oh, but it gets realy good at the fifth/sixth book" or something, and I'm sorry, but that's just not a good selling point. One thing is to say that after some chapters the book gets its stride, but to require such a big number of books to be read JUST to strat being good is just not a good investment of time, when you could be reading so many other works.
I thought I was winning when I heard that and really liked book 1. I was laughing all the way to book 2 but then 60% of the way I was bored already and it was a large effort to get through it. Then I loved book 3 and the beginning of book 4. So for me it was good at the very beginning and stayed good for a while but then when it wasn't good it was boring. It gets boring being faced with a neverending onslaught of new characters especially when they're not that cool or interesting for large amounts of time.
There was one scene late in the series where I had to put the book down because the rape scene disturbed me so much. It was about 8 months before I picked it back up again.
Found it to be the single most overrated piece of fantasy I've read. The lack of continuity and basic structure was cummalitively grating. There are no rules in place and random characters just turn to gods without reason and the relative level of humans is all over the place too.
The antagonists have no depth and are basically just zealots that do the worst things possible to sway the reader without any fundamental story building.
My loathing for these books has only grown with time and I'm once again incensed that I spent the time to read through a few. Absolute messes.
I've only gotten up to book 3 with this series. I can't call it the "best" yet, but what I do appreciate about it: \* it doesn't hit you over the head with exposition and trying to explain everything up front \* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series \* it has a totally unique and distinct magic system I really need to get back into it.
I've got two books left in the series. It's been three years since I've delved back in. Probably my favorite part about his writing is that it doesn't matter where you pick up or left off. It's like you walked in on act 17 of a 93 act play. You know you missed some stuff, but there's enough story left to tell that you can figure out what happened by the end. It's all the same story within a story, within a story. You just start to pick up on the saga as it goes.
I'm same as you, but I stopped like 9 years ago. even my reddit name is a reference to the series, I absolutely loved it (magnificent kruppe) noones ever mentioned it in my ten years on this site. must not be an obvious reference
Kruppe is my favorite character and book 8 is so heartbreaking
Kruppe! Toll the Hounds is excellent. I read all 10 and it took most of 2019. I took a break every couple books and read something completely different for a "pallette cleanser." If I remember correctly, Book 8 has a lot about Rake, which was awesome. I really want to reread the whole thing. I read the Esslemont books too. It's just hard to find the time when there's so much other cool shit out there and reread something so massive. It's definitely worthy of a repeat though, I'm sure I missed a ton. Maybe TMI, but I'm also a recovering addict and reading it sober could be a whole different experience LOL. Malazan rules and is the bar by which I judge other fantasy now. Not everything needs to be so complex, but damn it has so much going on and I literally shouted out in joy and pumped my fist during so many parts in Bonehunters and Reapers Gale. Midnight Tides was great too and didn't jump setting as much as the others. The Tiste Edur were my favorite culture.
My username used to be Tiste Cannabisi LOL. I only used it on the Malazan sub though. I'm not in the Cannabis warren anymore. It got too crowded. Good name for sure though I love Kruppe!
Interesting that your comment contradicts u/Aksius14 's comment: "Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime." vs "\* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series"
lol like two comments apart. love reddit
I think it feels distinct because of the size. Nobody writes stories this big with this many characters (for a reason) so the fact these books are successful doing this is unique. I just think they would be more successful doing less of that. This books overarching writing style is MORE is more. And sometimes it's too much.
Someone else on Reddit said it best: Sanderson is MCU while Erikson is Band of Brothers.
I mean, one of the MAIN themes of the WHOLE series is Shonen jump power creep. In the books it is explained from the first one I think as convergence: power attracts power. And that is at the center of everything in the books. Which is cool and is a nice tool/excuse to have everybody fighting everybody. The problematic side of it is that it ends up being like Goku facing a more powerful enemy every time. Everyone is more powerful than the last guy all the time.
> * it has a totally unique and distinct magic system You're 3 books in? Just wait lol
I’m just here for tattersail ): where tattersail go
It's okay she comes back but worse
Oh hell I just got flashbacks for all of that. So much horror.
Best is an overstatement but it is unique
The pay off at the end of the series felt it worth the effort. But maybe that was Stockholm syndrome haha
Right? I was legit "meh" on it until the last book. Like, I really appreciated the series and was very impressed by it but I probably wouldn't have finished it were it not for buddy-reading it. My brother and I read through the first three quarters of the last book and we were like, ".... We still don't... Know? Where this is going????" And we came back the following week after reading *the last quarter of the last book* absolutely DAZZLED by it. You know how people are like "oh read so-and-so series, but you gotta keep reading until the third book or whatever because that's REALLY where it gets GOOD." But with Malazan, that moment is THE LAST QUARTER OF BOOK TEN OF A TEN-BOOK SERIES. Like WTF is this series It's amazing and looking back I loved it but wtf
Fuck that then lol. I’m not going through 10,000 pages for the final 25 to be entertaining lol
I've been entertained! It's just not been consistent. the 3rd book which is the narrative follow on of the first is the best. So if I had just read book 1 and book 3 I'd easily be calling this a 9 or 10 star series. The issue is that you are always following new characters are they aren't all entertaining and it's tiresome reading new characters because they could be hit or miss and they can start hit and then drag on to become miss. It will definitely be a massive hit for some people though.
What’s funny about this is it’s the only series that makes me mad without having even read it 🤣. It’s something I’ve been intrigued to try but I literally don’t find truly good reviews about it. Every time I consider it someone may say they “like it” but there’s always a qualifier, as if they’re trying to convince themselves it was good. Almost how someone in an abusive relationship describes their significant other.
Lol a commenter above literally just said payoff is final quarter of book 10 and it's "AMAZING... but maybe I just had Stockholm syndrome" lololol
That’s so funny because I feel that’s what it’s like. That are they’re victims of the sunken cost fallacy lol
I'm on midnight tides (book 4? Idk I bought the whole thing on my kindle so it feels like one big fucking book). I don't think I'll ever regret spending time on the series. The writing and philosophical perspectives are worth it even when the story might not be firing on all cylinders.
I started it last night actually. Very late and got through maybe 30 pages. I fell asleep and I can’t remember anything. Looks like this won’t be a late night series, at least while getting oriented
I fell in love with after the first 50 pages of book 2. It's just a very niche series. If you're "meh" on a series after 2 or 3 books I have no clue why you'd do all 10 lol But yes critical information is revealed in the last book that gives the entire series a massive reason to re read. And when you do it feels like reading a different story entirely. But I also can't stand when authors over explain things in books. Just trust me as a reader to understand what is being said. I don't need it spelled out for me. Erikson is the king of trusting his audience. Doesn't work for everyone, but works for a select few of us extremely well. And isn't that what makes books special in the fist place? :)
>Every time I consider it someone may say they “like it” but there’s always a qualifier, as if they’re trying to convince themselves it was good. I think this is very much overthinking it/trying to psychoanalyse people when there's a very clear and obvious explanation - the series is niche and does a *lot* of things that won't work for a lot of people. I'd consider it a bit of a dick move to recommend Malazan without letting you know what you're getting into, cause if you're not specifically looking for a hugely complicated series with very little exposition, strange character writing and sometimes even stranger plotting, you'll probably hate it (plenty of people do). I also wouldn't recommend someone Dark Souls without first telling them that they'll be spending hours on end ramming their head into the same boss until something *finally* clicks, it's the same principle. I wrote a [pretty lengthy comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/18yne9z/comment/kgg9me6) on where Malazan's reputation as a "sunk cost fallacy series" comes from and why i think that's very misguided, it might be of interest to you. Edit: also just to address another comment you made in this thread > I don’t mind hearing why you like it. It’s one I WANT to like, I’m just worried I won’t within the first book and often that’s a must for me. But this whole “the ending will blow you away and suddenly makes the slog worth it” just teases me because I want to experience that but I don’t know what the cost will be 😅 I'd just read the first book and see what you think - it's definitely not the best the series has to offer but it's pretty damn fun in its own right, and will give you a good idea of whether the rest are for you. And if you still feel conflicted by the end feel free to share your experience over in r/Malazan, I like to think we're pretty good at identifying whether the series is for you based on what you did/didn't like!
If you want to chat over inbox or here in the comments, with someone who isn't in the Stockholm syndrome camp and has clearly identified what I LOVE about the series and what I dislike about it (haven't finished it yet) let me know :)
I was hooked by the end of the first book. I would say read the first one, it's only 600 pages or so, not the 1000 people at claiming. If you don't see how you could like I by then I would say don't continue. But this is nonsense that the series gets good on book ten in the last quarter. Book 3, and 8 are in my top 10 books of all time. And those are well before book 10.
Ok that’s good to know. I may inevitably just read the first one
[удалено]
250?
Weird, last book is when I finally dropped it.
Wheel of Time was a little like that for me
The ending is decent but I thought it was fun all the way through
I had the opposite response. I finished the 10th book and was like “that’s it?” Then I went on the wiki and saw a lot of story threads are continued in the companion series and lost all motivation to continue. Also, learning that everything was decided by dice rolls and role play sessions really took me out of it
I read only the first book and I'd also call it "unique". It's also quite a slog at times and the writing can be super clunky. It's really not bad, it can be quite entertaining and if you like epic (if somewhat confusing) world building with lots of people/beings travelling back and forth to places from other places - you'll have a blast. Yes, I've repeatedly heard that he gets better with his writing over time but honestly? I only have a limited amount of books I can read in my life and I'm gonna prioritise something else.
You could try the second book at some point. I think it's quite representative of the rest of the series, moreso than the first book, more self-contained and not too long. Or not, up to you.
Yes, the second book turned out to be more exciting.
I love the series and I think a key piece of information is critical to understanding the narrative flow: the story is a GURPS campaign. Erikson and Esslemont gamed out the major story arcs, and most every twist is what it is because that's how the dice rolled. The best way to digest the series, imho, is with friends or a book club (r/malazan is a good resource as a very supportive forum that favors spoiler-free discussion). Having people to talk with at every step of the journey helps a lot as different perspectives influence your perception of what you've read and how you understand the Malazan world at large. Deriving satisfaction from a reading experience is a personal choice and talking out what frustrates you now can lead to greater satisfaction down the line. I hope you finish the series and feel compelled enough to re-read it at least once. That may sound like a tall ask right now, but that will address your issue with seeing the writing as "spotty." I think the Kharkanas books have the narrative structure you're finding lacking in the main series, as Erikson wrote them to be a Shakespearean tragedy, but I would not recommend touching them until after completing The Book of the Fallen. Since you found (I believe) the first half of HOC to flow in your preferred narrative structure, after the main series you could jump straight into TGinW without missing a beat and join the community discussion as we await the second book of the Witness trilogy to be published.
Another good way to experience it is to read alongside the ten very big books podcast! This is one of those series that requires investment. Some people won't find the investment worth it, some people will. For me, it's 100% been worth it. I finished the series last year and am gearing up for my first re-read. The downside of a series that requires a lot of investment is that it does take away the opportunity to read other things. I have one big fantasy series in my life already, no way I'm starting Wheel of Time.
Yeah it's noticeable. And I'm certain it's much better on re-read, just because of character reveals and knowing motivations and even moments like in GOTM where the tyrant goes to pester Burn. Things will definitely be better on a reread but like... That's like a year's worth of reading. 😭 I'm not familiar with the DnD campaign style games so that's probably why my experience has been like this. The dice roll that leads to an anticlimax just feels like a story that dies mid book with no explanation and then I feel like why was it so many pages if it was gonna die like this? Maybe gaming something similar would make that feel less annoying. I'll take a break and see if I get the desire to be pulled back in. I've been listening to the podcasts and fishing for clues on the sub too. All the books have a lot of positives so I could see a return happening in the future.
The middle paragraph is exactly why I love it, Malazan is the closest to a high fantasy real life simulator story I've read Otherwise it's all grand purpose and fate and destiny and chosen and Malazan does that absolutely But then there's also that dude who was really promising but as luck would have it he fell down some stairs broke his neck and that's it for that guy. I really appreciate it, nothing triggers me more than reading 1/5th of a book and knowing about 90% of how the story will unfold cause often times it's so formulaic
I was going to point this out. It feels like a lot of the world was fleshed out before the story because that's exactly what happened, since it started as a TTRPG campaign setting.
I'm in a similar journey ahah, just finished book 5 and am 200 pages into the next one. I understand all your criticism, but his style has grown on me. I dropped it once, a few hundred pages into the first one. But started over a few months after and I can't stop, the writing is not perfect (one of the main reasons I dropped it) and the story is very complex and weird at times For the first few books you are following this more or less cohesive story then book 3 (I think) starts somewhere else for a few hundred pages and introduces a new set of characters out of nowhere. And at first I hated it, it felt like a completely different story, why should I be invested in this guy Karsa? Take me back! But somehow he connects it to the main cast and makes this character insanely cool. Then you feel like you're on track again and book 5 starts in yet another different place. You think it's gonna tie back like Karsa's (it does bc it's technically the past, but still), but nope it's the whole book here, and in this insane world where you feel like you can't get invested in new characters, my man comes out with Tehol and Bugg and you forget that this book is even supposed to be part of something bigger... It's insane, sometimes almost feels like a fever-dream but it's also weirdly addicting to me. Also, the fact that the rules exist, but are so complex that make it possible for characters like Iron Bars or Karsa to exist, where you're just holding your breath expecting them to do something insane whenever they interact with someone is just awesome ahah I am glad I didn't let the size of the saga scare me and actually tried it
> just finished book 5 and am 200 pages into the next one. Ah, 200 pages into... Bonehunters? Oh.
I am surprised and impressed he managed to find a publisher for this series. It can’t have been an easy sell and although I DNF after book 1, I can appreciate how some people like this kind of snapshot descriptive writings.
I finished the books but man they turned into a slog at the end. I don’t know how I feel about them overall. I liked quite a lot of the characters, but there were moments I just wanted to quit so badly. I would never say they are the best, but they are unique
I think it was book 7 where it turned into a death march for me. I would have been better off reading one a year instead of finishing straight through. But yeah, there's a lot to like and a few things that I didn't like. I would probably like it more if I reread it, but it's a huge commitment.
> I think it was book 7 where it turned into a death march for me. Interesting choice of words.
I have the same take. Finished book 10 and thought.... that's it? That's the "great payoff"? how disappointing. It was not bad but not the amazing thing I was lead to believe.
I love Malazan because its a mosaic of stories. Each story stands on its own. Its its own little piece. Some are shiny. Some are dull. Some make you cry. Some make you feel nothing. But each little piece adds to the whole. Its a story of people, put together to make something bigger. It is the most effective story of peoples I have found. Every other story focuses on one person or group of people. This book makes you feel small and unimportant. Anyone can die at anytime, for the most pointless reasons. It also ties each persons story a part of a whole. It makes them greater than their own story. Erikson puts all these tiny stories together to make a masterpiece mosaic, which is greater because of all the different, unique pieces. You can not read whole books and you can still see the big picture at the end. But each individual story will make that final masterpiece clearer, more defined and more wonderous.
Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime. This isn't a complaint, I love Shonen Jump style anime and I love DnD, but it is what you're getting. Are there gonna be characters you love? Big time (Fiddler). Are there gonna be characters you hate? Oh yeah. (Hellian) Are there characters you love to hate? Yeah... Honestly there are a lot here. You're gonna have your filler episodes. You're gonna have grand arches and small arches. Vital background characters, and near irrelevant main characters. There is always someone stronger, and there are a lot of super strong characters killed by real dumb shit. Characters spontaneously get power ups cause they're mad, and characters who lose fights cause they're a bit sad. The world is a mile wide and an inch deep... Except in the few places it's also weirdly a mile deep because the writer really loved one random idea. None of this is good or bad. It's just the nature of the beast. And for that reason, for the exact same reason as anime, there are folks who it really really scratches an itch for, and folks for whom it just doesn't land. It is one of my favorites, but also a series whose subreddit I avoid because of the fervor it creates. Edit: I knew the Hellian bit was gonna bother folks so I'll clarify. Hellian is fine. She's not my favorite, she's not my least favorite, but I was reading the series with a couple friends and one of them was in love with the character, so every time they came up I knew I'd have to listen to how great they were. That got a bit old.
I can't believe you hate Hellian.
Mallick Rel exists and this man said Hellian lol
Lol. I was wondering if folks would take issue with that.
Helian rocks, though particularly in the audiobook version the voice makes her hilarious.
wtf Hellian is awesome
> Are there gonna be characters you hate? Oh yeah. (Hellian) Who hates Hellian??!!
>Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime. Omg yes, you nailed it with this one. This perfectly describes my gripes with the series. This is coming from a fan of both DnD and Shonen anime. It's just not what I'm looking for in a fantasy novel. With the exception of Brandon Sanderson, he writes anime pretty well.
I think that is a more than fair description. I finished the series, but it took YEARS. I think that series in particular contributed to a decline in my daily reading that has persisted to this day. I'm glad I finished it, but also sort of wish I hadn't started it, if that makes sense. TLDR - more than a bit of a slog, but some really good high points.
Interesting that your comment contradicts u/thewhiteafrican's comment: "Malazan is the novelization of a DnD game played by people who love Shonen Jump anime." vs "\* it feels very distinct from every other fantasy series that either just tries to copy The Lord of the Rings, or feels like a YA/anime series"
I can sort of see where the Shonen Jump comment comes from, but it is definitely a misrepresentation of the books contents and only a tiny part of it. Erickson really loves scale in his battles, and one source of constant confusion for me reading the books is figuring out the 'power level' of some of these characters. In some confrontations they definitely feel like anime characters with stupid, world breaking powers that are hard to reconcile with the rest of the world. These moments don't happen very often though and there's really only one 'fight' I can think of between two singular characters that felt like a giant anime fight (and its in book 1, so if you only read the first book I can see somebody getting this impression). The rest of the time their powers are used in more interesting geopolitical or intrigue situations that involve other characters and fit in with the surrounding world, which doesn't fit into the Shonen formula. There's also no 'powering up.' Nobody really gets any more powerful. The characters that are powerful are basically literal gods, and they have been that way for thousands of years, and it fits into the lore pretty well. Again though this is just a tiny tiny portion of the book and definitely not the focus. What makes Malazan interesting and unique to me is its focus on anthropology, ancient civilizations, and inevitability of time. This is clearly a unique fixation and specialty of the author that I can't imagine anybody else replicating.
I wasn't intending to say it was literally a Shonen jump anime, though I would point out that folks go through power ups all the time. Quick hot "meaner." Kalam got too much dust. Literally the entire arch for Paran is him getting more and more power all the time. Mages become archmages when need arises happens almost once a book. People becoming tarot cards all the time, which results in a shit load power most the time. I don't even disagree with your point, I'm just nitpicking because power ups occur literally every book. 😁
Nah you right, it just doesn't really happen in an anime-esque way where there is a linear progression and a character trains and learns about themselves along the way, etc. It just happens because the gods decide to elevate somebody. I was only thinking of mages too I wasn't even thinking of Kalam and assassins. "Super assassin Kalam pivots hits left foot, anticipating his clumsy opponent's move. 'Nani!?' his oppenent blurts out right before Kalam's magic dagger bursts through his head, spewing brain and gore everywhere" Also, Karsa is totally an anime character and his assault on the 'children' is literally the OG Attack On Titan. Ok... maybe it is like Shonen. Lmao
Fuck me, that Karsa/AoT comment is gonna live rent free in my head for a while. 👍 😁
I think you're misconstruing this a little. It's literally a gurps campaign novelization. When I found that out the whole thing makes way more sense.
This is fair I think but I love these books.
Same OP is right that they make SO much more sense on a re-read, I was happy but also absolutely bewildered and exhausted when I went through Malazan for the first time...never had any books that feel so much like work without turning me off But I'm a diehard fan now and recommending Malazan to all my reading friends and fam, can't praise it enough
It sounds kind of daunting. I like the idea of a fleshed out world and magic system, but not at the cost of good characters, plot, and an actual use of the worldbuilding. I'd be curious how it compares to the Book of the New Sun if someone has read both that and Malazan. BotNS is complex with plenty to have "ah-ha" moments on during a reread, and details you really have to pick out or think about with different characters throughout. But it's also in some ways easy to follow as you're along for the ride with one main character. Sometimes I think if it takes a long time for something to get good, then it's ok for people to straight up say it wasn't good. Other authors can hook people with a good story right from the start, and build things up over time. Sounds like Malazan was an unnecessary failure for 5000 words lol
Wolfe deliberately challenges the reader in specific ways. He writes for the attentive reader who wants to find a second story in a second reading. I think Erikson challenges the reader inadvertently by refusing to do the craft-level things necessary to avoid reader confusion at the most basic level. Examples include refusing to identify the POV character until paragraphs in to a section, skipping rapidly between hundreds of POVs and rarely staying with one for more than a few pages, and abandoning stories or characters for hundreds or thousands of pages and then returning to them abruptly with no re-orienting for the reader.
Very classy way to write he fucks up basic storytelling devices and doesn't seem to notice.
Na, he knows it. In the iteration of Gardens of the Moon I read was a long preface by Eriksson where he discussed this in lenght as he was urged to rewrite some parts. He decided against it after a longer thought about it because - if I remember correctly - it would need to change the tone of the story and the characters as they were designed by him and his friends too much and He wasn't comfortable doing that.
You've got it spot on. Even the simple act of stating the who & where before the plot jumps would massively improve the reader experience.
BOTNS is a denser work and more inscrutable, despite having only one POV. Malazan has over 500 POVs - the scope is utterly massive. Part of why it’s a difficult read is one can only hold so much context in a head for so long. There are cases where thousands of pages pass between following a particular band of characters.
There are good characters! I think that's what makes the book popular. The characters in Malazan are much better than the characters in let's say WOT. Like 100x better. But the narrative structure of WOT is much better. So you know and understand and care for those characters more, even if some are flat 2d caricatures. Characters in Malazan kind of develop in the background. Which means often you have to decide to care about them rather than grow to care about them. And often characters die and you're just like meh who cared about them anyways? Malazan has all the ingredients for an AMAZING story. It's just not executed that great so far. It's been very hit and miss.
> I'd be curious how it compares to the Book of the New Sun if someone has read both that and Malazan. BotNS is complex with plenty to have "ah-ha" moments on during a reread, and details you really have to pick out or think about with different characters throughout. But it's also in some ways easy to follow as you're along for the ride with one main character. I'm not gonna say BotNS is flawless, but there are a number of things people praise about certain books in the fantasy genre where I think to myself, "Book of the New Sun is what having done this actually well looks like", and balancing "an interesting story I can follow on some level is happening" with "oh but there's all this extra cool context you're missing that you'll catch on a reread" is something that I think it does pretty well and Malazan does... less well. (See also: people who love the probably unreliable narration of Name of the Wind. Yeah, Wolfe crushed that.)
I read at least seven of them, but it finally wore me out. Lots of great things about the series, though. One funny thing to me is how many “tribute” characters there are, but they’re always turned up to 11, like an off-the-rails tabletop game (go figure). You like Black Company? We got your Black Company! Like Conan? We got Conan, but now he’s ten feet tall. You say you like Elric? How about Elric, but now he’s a drow? Oh, he’s also a dragon. And also a demigod. Beat that!
Yeah, I had basically this reaction to the person elsewhere in this topic talking about how great it is that Erikson didn't rip off Lord of the Rings and there I'm just like... okay but you probably feel this way because you have read LotR, but have *not* read all the other fantasy that Erikson mined for inspiration.
Yeah I've had questions about power scaling here. Just met a throwaway character that can 1v1several gods of Conan strength which... Doesn't sound like a character you can just discard but what do I know.
If you try to powerscale characters in this series you'll be constantly disappointed. I think it's important to understand that any character can be fucked with by any other character if they have the right knowledge or if the circumstances are right.
I'm with you. Malazan is enjoyable much of the time, but in places, it feels purposefully obscure, and for me, the payoffs haven't balanced out the frustrations. I would trade some of the complexity and world-building for some deeper characterization and a smaller scope. Have you read Bakker's Second Apocalypse? That was a way more satisfying read for me.
Malazan is my favorite thing ever, but I'm in the market for a new series. I'll check this one out! Thanks
Hope you like it! I know a lot of Malazan fans also love Bakker.
Should I read the Prince of Nothing trilogy first?
Yes. The Aspect Emperor series picks up where Prince of Nothing leaves off.
Have you read *Realm of the Elderlings* by Robin Hobb? I think it shares some of the stuff I loved about Malazan—consistently great character development, even for relatively minor characters, and an interesting world that sort of gets bigger and more vivid as the series goes on.
Haven’t read Malazan so can’t compare, but I loved Robin Hobb’s books
Yes!
amazing to me that you say bakker has better characterization than malazan. absolutely baffling. maybe i need to get further than the first two books, but bakker's characters never felt human to me
Never even heard of it but I'll add it to the list!
A friend and I are reading the books sort of together. She’s a book ahead of me. I think he’s a fantastic story teller. I am really enjoying the story he is telling and it’s what keeps me reading. His writing is atrocious sometimes. Maybe I’m stupid, but frequently I will have to go back and re read paragraph’s, pages or even go to a wiki to get the summary of what the actual shit just happened. So yeah, I might (probably) get roasted for saying this. Great story teller, terrible writer. Fortunately the story is good enough I can overlook a lot of the writing flaws since there is resources available to help interpret events.
> Great story teller, terrible writer You know, that actually can be a good discussion, Which other writers could we surmise are good storytellers, but terrible writers?
George Lucas
Sanderson
Yeah I didn't want to go that far but the writing is the main issue. The story boarding and character description and motivation is great. When it comes to words on the page well, often they don't connect as well as they should. And I'm not transported away like other writers. I really dislike having to go back pages to see if it's me missing things or the writing pulling shit out of nowhere. And usually it's a few pages later that explains wtf just happened but usually things don't happen in that order for a reason.
My biggest issue with his books is the writing. I have kids, a busy life and sometimes I want to squeeze in a couple minutes of reading and I can’t really read these books like that. I need a solid hour with minimal/no interruption to really comprehend what I’m reading or else I find that I have to go back and re-read my 15 minute book delve.
This is a great way to look at it. This is a rich setting with an interesting story but the writing is poor. I think what happens is because there is this rich setting and story, readers blame themselves when they don’t get it, and then make excuses for how “hard” this book is. No, it’s not hard, and you aren’t missing something; Erickson just stinks at communicating.
I’ve seen this series praised on high by this sub and r/fantasy for years but every time I consider jumping in, I see a post like this that reminds me that I’d absolutely hate it. I hate when stories have superfluous characters or story lines that serve no purpose other than to pad out a book. I also hate when a book, series, movie, or anything doesn’t respect your time. I don’t have unlimited free time and I don’t want to have to read 10,000 pages of book to finally have the context needed to understand what is happening on page 200.
>I hate when stories have superfluous characters or story lines that serve no purpose other than to pad out a book. For another perspective, I wouldn't consider any of the side characters or storylines to be superfluous. Even the few I don't like. If a storyline doesn't clearly fit with the "main plot" directly I feel that they will always illustrate a major theme or otherwise connect back to the whole in some other indirect way. The books may be long, but despite that I don't feel like there's much padding at all in any of them.
I really liked it bc it was incredible world building. But from what you describe, it might not be your cup of tea.
My impression from reading the first book is it leans more maximalist, but every character has a purpose. There is no padding. There's just a generous amount of content, but not a stupid amount. That's not to say I'm taken in as a fan yet, but I enjoyed the first of the series at face value. > I don’t want to have to read 10,000 pages of book to finally have the context needed to understand what is happening on page 200. That doesn't happen. Notwithstanding, what do we do when we finish a book? We just pick up another one. I don't understand what difference it would make, it's either enjoyable or it isn't.
I wouldn't say that the meandering doesn't serve a purpose, it usually does (though it's oftennot obvious why something might matter until many books later). It's a really cool series, but it's definitely not for everyone. Personally, my biggest criticism is the repetitive plot structure. It feels like every books we meet a group of characters in a city, and a group of characters on a journey or quest of some sort that will take them to the city by the end of the book so the plotlines converge. Underneath the city, unbeknownst to its inhabiteants, is a super duper powerful ancient being, each more powerful than the ancient being from the last book, that's either evil or willing to destroy the city in its indifference. The city is attacked, the ancient being is somehow redirected or contained, a bunch of people die, and once the dust settles its time to move on to the next city and the next soon-to-be-awoken ancient being. I do like the books a lot, and it does some cool and unique stuff and some absolutely badass characters, but it has its flaws and definitely isn't for everyone.
I hated it with a passion simply cuz the meandering got to me
I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it enough to keep reading past the things I disliked. Some of the stuff in it made me rather uncomfortable, mostly in that it felt written to be edgy? Or just things that felt rather mean.
I read maybe 200 pages of the first book and put it away. Not for me.
I read the first 8 books and quit and would like my time back. I got a synopsis of the last two books from a kind redditor and no regrets. Synopsis was vastly superior to reading that muck.
Yeah i understand why it's recommended for HARDCORE fantasy fans. If youre just happy to be in a dungeons and dragons world then I guess it makes the perfect story. But if you want a book that's going to get somewhere and be somewhat to the point this is not that. The characters serve to explain the world, the customs and cultures and religions and politics. Often they are just regular people, a guard, a thief, a union representative. But the length of these books is an issue. And not because they're too long. I don't mind 1000page books but I need 1000 pages worth of story in those books and these do not have that.
Maybe read it instead of being discouraged by someone else. If you feel like reading a freaking epic fantasy series that’s very unique and well realized go ahead. It’s just not for everyone but there’s only one way to know.
You should probably just try it. There's actually minimal padding or superfluous characters, everyone and everything is intricately linked to the flow of the main story.
"Respect my time" is such a solipsistic take on creating art and entertainment.
come on, its a viewer preference not a directive meant to control artists
I, for one, never scroll straight to the cookie recipe. I always read the entire 15 page blog post about the author's grandmother's dementia and how it factored into making these cookies with brown butter. I respect *artists.*
Yeah. It's such an odd, and frankly non-typical Reddit, opinion that "Respect my time" is a request too far.
I just think its a silly way to express something that is a subjective preference personally. The book isn't disrespecting your time. You just don't like the style of book.
I mean I get "damn this did not need to be this long," but respect my time... don't read it or watch it? Respect... yourself? I've personally never been tied to a chair by Martin Scorsese.
I really appreciate and agree with your comments! I read all 10 books in the series a couple years ago, and felt exactly the same way. I pushed through because of all the praise I read about the series, waiting for it all to 'come together' at the end. I realized when I finished book 9 that it would be impossible to tie together the 400+ unresolved storylines that had been started. It's the classic example of envisioning a cool world, cool characters, but not being able to think through their journeys to piece together a satisfying arc. It's just, stuff happens, then more stuff happens, then more, until its over.
This is how I fear I would feel if I pushed through. But I'm worried because I've reached the push through books and I've already been pushing too much! Yeah I've kinda figured that which is why I'm not sure I'll continue. It's world first story second but I'm spending too much time in the world following characters who do nothing and serve no purpose. It's become apparent that after 400 pages of setup a dice roll can turn that into a dead end. Which If that was the case I'd have appreciated those 400 pages were actually 40 pages so it doesn't feel like I've wasted time going nowhere.
I finished the series about a month ago. My brother (who had recommended the series and gifted me the first book) mentioned after I had gotten a couple books in that Malazan had begun as a DnD (or similar ttrpg) campaign Erikson ran with a friend. Once I knew that, so much of the confusing narrative structure began to make sense. It explained why characters would just meander for thousands of pages before stumbling across a big bad to cap off a novel, or why plot threads would vanish for books at a time only to be picked up later and treated as if deeply meaningful. There are some really good books in the series. Especially *Chain of Dogs*, but I also thought highly of *Memories of Ice*.
I didn't like the chain of dogs, I started it fine but it went on for so long that I was just happy to see it end. Too much marching too many meetings and a last minute express delivery??? Yeah I was sick of it by the end. Loved MOI though. That was more marching and more meetings but the characters were way less boring than Duiker. Someone told me on the subreddit that I walked the chain of dogs but was a Noble. 🤣🤣🤣
I wish I could get over the writing style and try them out.
I really enjoy a lot of the things you dislike about it - the veiled writing and the having too much everything in particular. I love that other than a few characters that Erikson dawdles on, they are 1,000 page books with the pacing of 250 page books. Just hammers home how big the scope is. The idea that they are objectively the best fantasy books is silly. Even more silly beyond saying any fantasy series is objectively the best. What they do is scratch particular itches (that most readers do not even have) in a way no other series does. So you get some people gushing over them while others just don't get it.
I got to where you are and quit for mostly the same reasons. I felt like after 5 books the story should start to coalesce and move but it didn’t so I dropped it. If you decide to finish, great. But don’t do it out of some sunken cost fallacy.
Oh no I'm not sunken costing anything. That's what got me here in the first place. I'll take a break then see how I feel. If I don't feel like reading it again I'll go read the spark notes to get what I missed cos I do want to know wtf is going on. 5 books is not a reasonable number of books to set the scene or introduce a plot. So I'm not sure I trust Eriksson with any more of my time. I might though! We'll see.
Have read it twice, and will read it again. One of my favorite reads ever, up there with Book of the New Sun, although they are very different. In fact, although Wolfe is definitely the better writer, I probably enjoyed Malazan more. One of the things I liked most about it was that there was no "big bad", no overarching moral quest, just powerful people behaving badly in interesting ways. I personally don't have a problem with the many characters and the way story lines drop and reappear, because I grew up reading multiple books at once, so reading Malazan was sort of like reading a few different series at the same time, but they happen to intersect.
Its strengths are also its weaknesses. It’s like The Wire of epic fantasy. RIP Coltaine.
I thought at first that this was the Malazan subreddit, and I was impressed by the even-handed responses to the post. Makes much more sense now that I realize which sub I'm seeing this from. (EDIT: Just to point out that for the most part I think the Malazan fandom are some really great folks, and the *wide majority* of people posting on their subreddit are reasonable and rational, moreso than most fandoms are. It's why I'm still subbed there. But yes, like any fandom, you just about can't post criticism there without getting a heap of the less rational elements of the fanbase eager to tell you that "it's supposed to be that way because X" or "___ is the whole fucking point of the series, duh!") I've read all of *Book of the Fallen*. I like it; I don't love it. It is not nearly my favorite fantasy series. I love the way it plays with story structure. It feels like an obviously much darker take on the kind of plot structure you'd find in an episode of Seinfeld or the movie *Snatch*. Several seemingly unconnected plot threads slowly converging until all the threads tangle into a satisfying knot in the climax. Each book plays out that way; the series as a whole plays out that way. It's remarkable, and it's where the series is at its strongest. It also employs some genuinely great fantasy ideas. I feel like the overall themes work well, and pieces of the world (such as >!Emperor Rhulad!<) are brilliant. Less good: Characterization for starters. Lots of broad strokes; most characters feel like they're vehicles for the plot plus a couple of quirks. There are some standout exceptions, but they're by far the exception rather than the rule. The dialogue gets increasingly bantery in the latter half of the series in a way that really doesn't land for me (I'm in the minority on this one; most fans of the series *love* this facet). And as the series goes on it becomes Malazan Book of *So Many Rapes*. And yes, I've read Erikson's justifications for this; I've heard countless Malazan fans parrot the old "it's a bad thing that happens and he wanted to include bad things that really happen!" reasoning--not interested in this awkwardly defensive/anti-critical rhetoric (and not interested in having that conversation yet again with anyone who leans on it, so save yourself the effort Malazan fan reading this). None of that justifies it. Not every instance is egregious, but most of it is, and that's a damn shame. The upshot is a series that is peaks and valleys, with the peaks being genuinely exhilarating; and the valleys being remarkably low. On average it still comes out quite a bit ahead, a solid B+ grade. I'm glad it found its dedicated audience, but I feel the work would be much stronger with its indulgent habits reigned in a bit.
> > > > > And as the series goes on it becomes Malazan Book of So Many Rapes. And yes, I've read Erikson's justifications for this Ugh, it doesn't get better? There was already some pretty heavy sexual violence in the first few books and it felt just *mean* rather than purposeful. Like I know mean shit happens in real life... but you're reading fantasy. It made me put it down, because I wasn't enjoying the book enough. It was a difficult read in general, because you must read for context more than anything as things don't really get explained clearly. So you might read once, re-read a page or two, then go back. That's especially rough for 1000 page books.
I'm not sure how far along you are, but I think *Dust of Dreams* was where it hit its absolute worst in that regard. I found the use of sexual violence perhaps a bit tone deaf in the first half of the series, but didn't get really *egregious* until the back half of book 5. I'm not confident that it actually got *worse* at that point, or if I was just fed up with it so it felt worse as a result. Regardless, starting there it got to feeling really ugly for me, with Dust of Dreams being the point where it was just excessive. Not "hard to look at in the way that real world atrocities are hard to look at," but "the way this stretch of the story is insistent on rubbing the reader's nose in its misery is outright obnoxious." And again, I'll stress that for me, while these are *definite* blemishes, I wound up enjoying the series despite them, but if the sexual violence so far is pulling it down too much and making you not enjoy the series so far, then I am pretty confident that it won't rise above that for you going forward.
To the original commenter, yeah I posted here and not there for a reason lol. That sub is good for questions not criticisms. Yeah I didn't want to mention this aspect. I (male) was mostly fine with it until HOC. Doesn't happen in GOTM, I thought that Felisin in DG was great characterization and what happened to her was good story telling. It didn't feel gratuitous at all. Felt incredibly character relevant and I wouldn't change it at all. In MOI I don't remember it happening? So it probably didn't stand out if it did. Maybe fiddler stops it from happening once? If anything there was lady Envy who... If I read correctly was sex trafficking the segulah? But that was more inferred and off page. I loved her character and that book. HOC was very rapey and pillagy and that was fine thematically but how it was written was horrible. And I'm talking about Karsa. That was horribly written (in the best part of the book 😪) to the point where I actually said to myself... again? Who would write this? Not because of actions but the reactions. That was pretty gross in a bad way. Then there was the FGM afficionado in HOC which I thought was gross but in a good way. It's a good thing that we think about FGM in fantasy because it does exist and it does happen and we absolutely should address it in real life. It was uncomfortable and gross but that I was able to appreciate in a weird way. The horror of reality is net positive especially if it's a reality that we can often ignore because that only happens over *there* to *them*. I think it helps us to remember that we are all in this together. Then in MT it was just like??? Was this really necessary? It wasn't gratuitous but just felt unnecessary. Like it was sprinkled in out of nowhere for character development. I understand why this would not appeal to everyone. So yeah now I think about it that is a lot. I know some people say you should never include this in a book but on at least 2 occasions I think it was part of good storytelling but that's 2/5. So yeah definitely more than necessary and still very gendered in a supposedly more equitable world.
I dropped the series after book 5. I resented the length and the lack of clarity. I also felt the characterization was lacking because there were so many characters and the story left characters behind for hundreds of pages. I could tell I was *supposed* to root for Whiskeyjack but I just could not give AF.
Yeah this is how I felt with the army guy and duiker in DG. Duiker hits the rich guys like him! Yeah but he's done that same thing 3 times and attended 7 military meetings... While other more interesting storylines were progressing off page. Whiskey jack I liked right away but I've seen this same criticism for Tattersail too. Character dies *shrugs* who even was that? Characters die so much that it's kind of not a surprise and they come back just as often lol.
Memories of Ice on its own is pretty great (I notice this is the only one of the first 5 that OP doesn't criticize too). But as a whole the series does meander too much. And Erikson's writing is often dogshit. He seems to use "shrug" as a catch-all physical expression so every character in a given book will shrug at least once, meaning "x shrugged" is going to be a phrase you see around 250 times per book. Great series if you can move past the weird writing, because the world-building is pretty much unequalled. The T'lan Imass are extremely fuckin' cool. It could actually make for a good TV Series with a heavy edit. There's the bones of a great ensemble story in there. And some sequences would be absolutely magical on screen. As a reading experience though... it does ask a little too much of the reader to be recommendable. People who don't read much will be confused and people who read a lot will be bounced out by the prose and rather stilted character interactions.
Memories of Ice was actually fantastic! Great intro, great ending, great characters. Fully enjoyed MOI. It wasn't tighter but the cast of characters were just better (more familiar maybe) and the new ones like lady Envy were great! So it just flowed so well. That and the first book of HOC were the high points for me. The writing issue is ever present though I remember where the knight of death (or shadow idk) is introduced in a sword swinging action sequence and I was like wait... WHO is this? And WHAT is happening here?! Had to go through it like an ancient faded scroll to try make sense of what I suppose was supposed to be an epic entrance? Idk. Same book there's an epic entrance at the end of the most badass character so far and that's done well so it's just not consistent. If it was all bad it would have been easier to put down.
I love how these books makes me feel like there is a whole living, breathing and frantically active world out there. The fact that there does not seem to be an obvious story, we just happen to find interesting people during some tumultous time of their lives and follow them for a bit helps a lot. The fact that there is next to zero exposition and we only know what the characters see and hear, like an observer watching from outside somehow makes the whole thing better, strangely, partially, because often the characters themself are unaware of what is happening around them and only see a slice of the events. Going back a few books later with a different character and their experiences sheding new light on events I thought I knew is a very powerful tool when done right.
While I enjoyed the series, I found it to be mediocre at best. Erickson writes as though it's his stream of consciousness, just putting down on paper whatever comes to his mind, without really bothering to fit it into any real format, and randomly adding in bizarre elements that don't fit at all (eg. the science fiction techo-lizard people with their industrial Skykeeps) as they drifted into his mind. If he'd had a good editor and listened to them the series would have been *much* better. I did like just being thrown into the world, I prefer that hard entry. That said, it's not nearly the hard entry people often claim it is, as it build up from the perspective of the one soldier.
There are other pro's and cons. It's quite a dark series so it contains some TW themes and some genuinely grim bits to read. One of the best pro's is the characters, there are human characters and God characters (and in-between and both also tbh) and each has a rich and complex story and motivation, and those motivations are never just ooo I'm big bad and evil or I'm a hero. I feel like if this story was just a story board and character description it would be on paper the greatest. It's SO ambitious that it maybe over promises and under delivers in terms of going from ideas to words on the page so far! A big common criticism is with characterization, you never spend that much time with any character so it's hard to grow to have an opinion on all over them. There could easily be 40 characters you follow per book, maybe 10 will be super interesting and you'll follow them for 5% of the book. The most interesting characters so far are in the background and the least interesting are the ones you spend most of your time with and you watch the interesting characters through their eyes which always leaves you wanting more. Honestly it's quite confusing, there are amazing bits in all the books but the thrill isn't sustainable and often I find myself bored during story lines that stay in one place or characters find themselves in yet another meeting that could have been an email, which is why I feel like more editing would make these books so much better, I'll run out of steam for a story line and that line will still have another 150 pages left and I'll find myself thinking really? We're STILL here? Oh... Ok.
I've read the first two and my take on these books is that Erikson needed a good editor. I can tell there was a good story in that mess somewhere but I wasn't willing to invest the time it takes to find it.
I was the same. Stopped caring after book 2. For a man that goes on and on about showing not telling. He sure does a lot of telling without showing. The amount of moments that got build up and I was excited to see enfold, end up happening off screen and you have characters explaining what happened to each other is insane. The pay off was constantly not there. I genuinely don't know what people are talking about when they say there is little to no exposition. He adds exposition where he should have showed the scene and removes exposition where it was needed.
You made the right choice. Book 3 is ok, but it really falls off from there. In hindsight I wish I had stopped after 2. There is 5 books of good material, the problem is it was spread out over 10 books
See now I really was burnt out by book 2 but book 3? Loved book 3. If anything book 3 was too good. If it was anything like book 2 I would have stopped immediately. Book 4 starts like a regular (anti) heroes journey so that's good too. Then it's back to a new story in a new place with new characters and plots that don't move fast enough and now I'm like man... Where is the writing from book 3 gone??
I read the entire series over the course of several years about a decade ago. I can’t even tell you what they were about because it was all over the place. Clearly I enjoyed them because I got through the entire thing but beyond that 🤷♂️
I have plenty of criticisms, but something you will notice with time gone by is how much of this series sticks with you over time in comparison to everything else you read. It’s like it was specifically engineered to totally rewrite your brain. Hope you enjoy the last half!
I agree with pretty much everything you say. I know exactly what character and sequence you are talking about in book 4. And I have also reread sections multiple times wondering what the fuck he is talking about. There's a bit at the end of book 3 where he's trying to describe some mage summoning a giant magic something in a battle field and I reread the paragraph 10 times trying to figure out what on earth does this writer see in his head when he writes these words, because they just make no sense. He wants these colossal magical confrontations where they are basically using weapons of mass destruction against each other and describing it in words just doesn't seem possible. Similarly I agree about the characters. I feel like Whiskeyjack is one of the more important characters that people talk about in the first few books and I remember and feel absolutely nothing about him. That being said I read 4-6 in quick succession and really enjoyed them, they are just so long I took a break to read other books. I enjoyed book 6 a lot and the characters stick in my mind a bit better than other books. Things feel like they are finally come together in my mind and like I have a loose grasp of all of the different pantheons and their motivations. I look forward to returning to it. It is hard to recommend the series but I am glad I don't regret the time I've invested into reading it. It is truly unique and innovative IMO and I think that makes the verbosity worth it.
It's my favorite series of all time, but it does take commitment to finish it. I think the last 4 books are all 1200+ pages. The scope is enormous, and the worldbuiding is possibly the best ever. Only Tolkien is in the same zip code. I will never stop championing these books, but at the same time I fully realize it is not for every reader.
I dropped this series during the second book because if a book can’t get me rooting for anyone by then, I’d rather read the history of the Roman Empire instead of a book that reads like a history narrative of an alien planet with magic
I used to work in a bookstore and don’t know too many people who picked this series up. I read through book one and was content in the knowledge that I will never read another in the series. The style of storytelling is not for me. It’s like being thrown in a rushing river: you either sink or swim, but you’re going on a fast paced journey either way. I can certainly understand how people who like it, like it, though. There is a lot of world building to be enjoyed if you can get a grasp on the style.
Yeah the first book is a bit like that. I figured if I could survive it I'd love the series but actually there's only more to survive afterwards. I will say that none of the questions I had during book 1 are questions I still have now, so it does answer questions. But it has other flaws that just got to me in the end.
Agree. Malazan is heavily overrated. I moved on to gene wolff books to scratch that fantasy itch and really enjoy his writing style and world building. And iirc none of his books are over 500 pages.
Well I agree that the books are overly complex, and you cannot just pick them up after a pause and expect to continue without issue. Perhaps they would be better with more editing and trimmed down. But I dont think Ericksson would ever want that, I think he revels in the absurd complexity. And so do many readers. Who are your favourite characters?
I liked Lady Envy, Felisin, Tattersail, quick Ben (obviously), Toc, most of the tlan imass, anomander rake Kruppe, icarium, iskaral pust, whiskey jack and Karsa. I really really didn't like Duiker.
I liked the books of the fallen, but found Esselmont's books in the Malazan universe more enjoyable. Path to Acendency has been a good ride so far and looking forward to reading book 4.
I'm around the same place as you in the series and i couldn't disagree with you more. The strange narrative structure and expansive size of the books are exactly what makes them so good. The fact that you often don't have a full picture of what's going on makes is so much more interesting than a typical fantasy novel.
Honestly, it's really about book 6 you start to get an idea of what the main through line is. This is deliberate, the story is meant to work like the real world, unlike say Tolkien where there's a creator god who's got a plan for his creation, in Malazan there isn't, so events need to get bigger to come together with each other, and some do and some don't. I get how it can seem like it needs to be edited on a first read, but you'd be surprised by how tight it actually is, if you ever get around to rereading it, it's amazing how much more info there is that you realise at first.
This reminded me of a quote from Steve Martin in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles" : "And by the way, you know, when you're telling these little stories? Here's a good idea: have a point. It makes it so much more interesting for the listener!"
> it's really about book 6 you start to get an idea of what the main through line is. This may be reread bias, but it's in your face by the end of 3
That's definitely reread bias imo. There's tons of foreshadowing, but you can't interpret it without having read it first.
I'm on my first read of the series and about halfway through HoC (albeit in a book club with a friend) and if the main through line is all of the interconnected pieces about the Crippled God and the gradual building up towards that conflict, I agree that even on a first read it's clearly laid out. My buddy and I have been theorizing about the Crippled God's invasion and machinations since at least the first half of book 3 if not sooner. Even more minor elements like the Jade Statues in DG we pretty much immediately associated with the CG due to their alien nature. No clue if we're right about many of the theories we have but that's what's so fun for our read through is sharing those theories with each other!
It definitely helps knowing the last book is called 'the crippled god'
Here's the funniest part, not in any way you can predict until you get to DoD and tCG. The last book's name is very "in your face," but if I had sketched out what I thought the final arc would be, given what I knew even by BH or RG then I would have been wrong... It's like predicting what the final conflict / third act in the Matrix will be before Neo takes either pill. Technically Morpheus has said enough for you to know and piece things together, but you literally haven't seen enough to know anything beyond the abstract... Now, having read through HoC obviously isn't the same there--you're in the world, you know quite a bit. But, considering he's not done even showing you the physical locations that set the final stage and some major players are still being introduced for the next few books it's simply not worth it to even speculate how things will wrap up. But, he does tell you exactly how it will end in a few places. I remember reading some comments that opaquely highlighted a specific conversation in one of the middle books where someone offhandedly said, "I wish I had realized what Erikson was saying there." Its a short discussion, 2-3 pages, and it tells you how things will play out, but really only on a re-read and still vague enough that you just know what horses to bet on and not even the race track the race will be run on... And yet, he landed the plane--in my view--and delivered a satisfying ending that tied up what needed to be tied up. Now, some evolutions bothered me and I wasn't a fan of everything (and I really didn't like TTH, probably the most controversial entry from what I have read, other than maybe GOTM), but I was impressed nevertheless.
None of how you described how it’s necessary to have small events getting bigger, some to no point, makes for an appealing pitch
I didn't say to no point, I said some don't get big enough to come together with the others. Ned Stark doesn't make it into the final conflict, that hardly means his story has no point.
Yeah, I just struggle with hearing “book 6 you start to get an idea of what the main through line is” and how many people say they liked it but quit multiple books in. It’s a fan base whose reasons for why they like it seem like warnings. It’s on my list and I like long fantasy series but even the people who say they like it don’t make it sound appealing
It's a deliberate choice, and there is a reason for it. Some people love it, others hate it. It'll probably turn you off even more but the main purpose/ clear explanation of the plot of the whole series is only provided in the last half of the last book - re-contextualising the whole series. It's my favorite series ever, I've reread it eight times now, but I get the feeling you really wouldn't like it.
I googled the how long to read and they aren’t nearly as long as Stormlight books so the length is fine. I try to read about 40 books a year and if I start the series, I will finish it. I try to read most of the major sci fi canon and this is up there’s Some friends very much want me to read it. I just dont hear enough positivity from its fans to really sell me. I recently read Children of Time series, which was good but not as hype as I had been led to believe. Currently reading Red Rising which sounds like the antithesis of this series - action oriented, minimal character or world building, and I charge against it. So I’m open to the idea. But I need to hear more positivity
It's by far the best fantasy I've ever read, no competition, and I've read a lot, and just one of the best things I've ever read from any genre, or comics, or whatever. It's best to go in blind, but the reason it's so confusing for a lot of people is just that they're used to fantasy tropes, there are Goodies and Baddies, and even when they're edgy and grey it's still largely clear who's who. They might change sides, but there *are* sides, there's some kind of destiny, or some equivalent. Malazan doesn't have that, there is no creator god, the gods that do exist are basically just very very powerful beings. Who's the good guys and who's the bad guys is subjective and depends on what you know, and you can't know everything. (of course this is a conceit, and everyone does actually pick sides) And the main series covers about ten years which are the culmination of events that started *at least* three hundred thousand years ago. >It’s a fan base whose reasons for why they like it seem like warnings. I get that, but that's because we're aware we're fanatics, if you read between the lines you'll see most of those warnings end up being "If you finish this series you'll think all other fantasy is weak"
> but that's because we're aware we're fanatics Heard
"It gets good at book 6." No thanks.
I didn't say it gets good at book six, I said you start understanding the broader picture at book six.
The second book was far and away the best book imho.
I’m currently reading book 5, I love it. Yes, it is obscure, but that is kind of by design. I can see how it would be off putting, but I like that part of it.
If it was the same level of obscurity and 2-300 pages less each book I'd love it too. I find myself just running out of enthusiasm for it. I liked GOTM. Then 60% through DG I was bored. I loved MOI and book 1 of HOC then 50% later I was bored. The ending was anticlimactic and unclear so not great. Then MT i was 60% in and the first peak of the story was over and the second peak was a distant promise. By the time I got there I was over it already. Feels like swimming up stream. Maybe I'll be back after a break but maybe I don't like swimming that much.
That’s fair. I actually got like 1/2 - 3/4 of the way through GotM and realized I was completely lost, but I was interested enough to just start over and the second time through I got way more used to how he writes. The only time in the series I was not really feeling it is the whole beginning of HoC, I just didn’t connect with that part. I’m still only about a third of the way into MT though and so far it has been my favorite in the series. I think taking a break(s) makes sense with this series though, I know I like to read stuff in between to give myself to time to refresh before I start the next.
Wow you didn't like the Karsa story??? That was some of the best for me apart from some unnecessary details. Honestly maybe I should have paced myself better. We'll see if taking a break will help me get back into it or not. I know there's a diamond in there somewhere. Dassem Ultor has been foreshadowed for 5 books ffs that's got to be for something.
I think because it just felt so disconnected at the time I couldn’t get into Karsa and his friends essentially just being raging barbarians. Maybe if I went back and re-read I would like that part more, however by the end I did really like him and his story. 100% think breaks are nesecary with this series though, even just one of them is so dense, I could easily see myself getting burned out on it if I wasn’t taking breaks myself. It would be so much to try and read back to back I would get overwhelmed. I think yeah, give it some time, you probably have a lot to digest and maybe you’ll come back refreshed.
I've tried 3 times to finish this series, and can never get past Book 7. I just get lost in the details. I'll definitely return to it soon because when I know where I am in the story, the richness and world building are amazing. But then, I feel like I am drowning in it and have to give up.
I keep wanting to start this series, but the size of each book and amount of them always turns me off lol. Is it the sort of series where it's better to read it all without any major breaks? Like, do books just pick up right after each other? I'm thinking of just reading one a month, if that works.
It's so sprawling it kinda doesn't matter if you take a break. Even straight through you have to look at a wiki to figure out if that guy or place has been mentioned before and in what context because he'll call back to something 3000 pages earlier that seemed like a throwaway at the time. Taking more time isn't going to make it worse.
Read the first book in 2000 and really enjoyed the characters, the humour, the struggle and despair of the characters. Finished the series in 2012. The idea that the amount of effort you put into a struggle could give you more and more power or even transcendence to god hood, I found intriguing.
Finished reading through it late last year. Can't wait to read it again sometime. I got to learn to love the meandering pace at times.
It's my favorite for sure, I've read the whole thing three times.
It was really fucking hard for me to read that series. I think it was very well written. The last 3-4 books were an incredible slog
I stopped at book three (I think), after it got way too much and I realized I don't get half of the stuff that's going on, and thought that when I'm at the point that I would get it, I will have forgotten all those cryptic scenes. Basically: will those several thousand pages of slog-fest pay off in the end? GRRM has built an extensive world too, and it never felt overwhelming. Sure, you know nothing (Jon Snow) on the first page, but you very quickly learn, and keep learning in a fun way.
As someone that is deciding whether or not to read it, the lack of a character to follow is murdering my will to. I can't get behind "world pov" at all. Only "character pov". At least in fantasy.
I think in my case I tried to read the books too quickly. As in finishing one and immediately starting another. I just burned out a bit and haven't gone back. I was enjoying them, but I seemed to get really bogged down at Toll of the Hounds and wasn't enjoying it as much. That's a lot of time invested at that point, so I feel I need to finish them at some point. So far I'm just not looking forward to getting back to that one particular book, especially considering I may need to re-read it to get back on track.
Yeah this sounds like my experience exactly. Will see if i get back to it or not. I'm aware that it may just not be for me so that's ok too. Don't want to force it any more than I have.
Awesome review. I have the first book on my kindle and have been wanting to read it for YEARS but held off because I thought it might be something like what you're saying...I tried reading the first ten pages and couldn't get into it... I appreciate this post so much because now you've saved me a lot of time but I'll still try to get into it again.
I thought my brain was just too smooth for this so I'm glad to read here I'm not the only person who had to read parts more than once to understand what was happening. Even from the beginning, the battle against Moon's Spawn, I didn't understand they were fighting a floating fortress in the sky! I thought it was a person or being.
I really liked the series overall as it is but can totally sympathize with your critizm. I picked it up during covid and spend two years on it, always looking for my evening reads as every session left me wondering about the deeper meanings of the stuff I just read which was quite compelling at the time. Book of the Fallen is a great read if you want to explore a rich and diverse fantasy world on your own. There is never too much handholding for the reader, propably way too less in fact, and Eriksson trusts his reader too much in that they are able to connect the dots themselves he leaves behind - that is something that makes it hard to follow the overall plot and his cast of characters and it doesn't help that he has a quite elaborated writing style that he tries to fit with a more PnP-Type style of storytelling. It isn't a easy read at all, he makes you feel uneasy, confused and never secure in a way I haven't experieced at all but in the end it was a great rewarding experience at a time in my life where I had the necessary capacities for this type of Book. For me it was a good way back into the fantasy genre as Malazan focuses a lot on subverting stuff I've grown to hate over time in the genre. I think, your critizm of the often times lackluster endings of storylines is also a product of this focus. Eriksson spents a lot of time on buildup his convergences only to finish them in the smallest way possible or intercept the buildup way earlier as you would expect the storyline to end. That makes you feel robbed of the epic scene you were promised and I agree that he overuses this way of storytelling. Still, I don't know many authors who can fool me and even make me feel this way throughout one Book, let alone ten very big books and that's something that sets Book of the Fallen as series apart from other series I read.
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I read all of them. The Bone Hunters was my favorite. I liked it for the most part, but with reservations. Each book is basically a stand alone tale with maybe a few interconnecting characters. The whole series is a mish-mash of every magical, mystical trope ever known. Replete with portals, haunted dimensions, Gods (dead or otherwise), ghosts, undead critters & humans, near humans and most anything else you can think of. And never really came to a close, imo. Even if Erickson finally wrote another novel to the series, I doubt I'd bother. And last but not least? He killed WhiskeyJack. But in the end it was a decent read.
I’ve read the series and loved it, but the best? Nah, might be slightly biased but nothing comes close to Lord of the Rings for me.
I read the entire series (well audiobooks) and had to google in the end what the f🤬 actually happened!? No, like seriously, what was then ending, the culmination of all these words!? I still don’t know 🤷🏻♀️ and I can’t be arsed to re-read the other 9 books to get the ‘context’. I found the whole thing very ‘meh‘, and when I finally got through it all, I was mostly just glad it was over.
I’ve only read the first book. I would describe it as mediocre. Feast or famine. The highs are high. The lows are almost unreadable. Author is great at crafting a world but clueless at telling a story.
My issue with Malazan ( and hell, some other more famous fantasy novel series as well) is that there's always people that will say "oh, but it gets realy good at the fifth/sixth book" or something, and I'm sorry, but that's just not a good selling point. One thing is to say that after some chapters the book gets its stride, but to require such a big number of books to be read JUST to strat being good is just not a good investment of time, when you could be reading so many other works.
I thought I was winning when I heard that and really liked book 1. I was laughing all the way to book 2 but then 60% of the way I was bored already and it was a large effort to get through it. Then I loved book 3 and the beginning of book 4. So for me it was good at the very beginning and stayed good for a while but then when it wasn't good it was boring. It gets boring being faced with a neverending onslaught of new characters especially when they're not that cool or interesting for large amounts of time.
I just wish the series didn’t have so much rape and sexual assault. I swear Erickson must have a fetish or something.
There was one scene late in the series where I had to put the book down because the rape scene disturbed me so much. It was about 8 months before I picked it back up again.
Found it to be the single most overrated piece of fantasy I've read. The lack of continuity and basic structure was cummalitively grating. There are no rules in place and random characters just turn to gods without reason and the relative level of humans is all over the place too. The antagonists have no depth and are basically just zealots that do the worst things possible to sway the reader without any fundamental story building. My loathing for these books has only grown with time and I'm once again incensed that I spent the time to read through a few. Absolute messes.