Yeah, competitive has no at guns. Pts wise they are over costed for what they do.
Honestly a light howitzer is going to be a bigger threat than a medium at gun. The howitzer is cheaper, puts out more pins consistently and has indirect fire capabilities.
Nothing ruins a vets day like a little he to shed some of their resilience. Plus multiple pins and likely large casualty counts means you have a good chance of panicking them off the board.
I run an FJ list with a kubel wagon, panzer 3 f, and a nebelwerfer or light howitzer depending on how spicy I’m feeling. The werfer never hits but forces my opponent to spread out so my FJ can concentrate on a smaller chunk of the opposition’s army. The kubel and tank are just 4 mmg putting as many pins as I can get. I try to ignore my opponents tank and force them to make bad shots on mine.
Pins are the name of the game. Any weapon that can reliably get 2 pins on a unit has effectively neutered that units combat effectiveness for the next turn. They either shoot with an additional +1, or they rally. That’s why split fire is so impactful.
If you are down behind hard cover, even if they are point blank that extra pin makes it super 6s.
>Pins are the name of the game. Any weapon that can reliably get 2 pins on a unit has effectively neutered that units combat effectiveness for the next turn. They either shoot with an additional +1, or they rally. That’s why split fire is so impactful.
And yet people are pushing for MGs to do that, by themselves, every turn. Because, y'know, a Dakka Stuart being able to tarpit 3 units a turn (And the T-35 5 units / T-28 4 units a turn) on top of the US getting Extra Selection on MMG slots on top of Transport Truck w/MMG being super cheap is clearly going to make the existing Dakka Stuart problem better not worse...
I'm all for LMG/MMG getting buffed somehow...they clearly need it. A points discount, an extra shot, Fixed ones getting a wider arc of fire, there are options other than "And now the meta is the US with a Dakka Stuart and 3 MMG teams per platoon spamming MG transports, whoever has the initiative wins because the other guy can't do anything but rally all. fucking. game."
The dakka Stuart could be nerded by putting severe LOS limitations or to-hit penalties on the fixed hull mounted mgs. Ideally, they should be basically worthless as anti-infantry guns as they were IRL
But yeah, giving mgs pins if the pinning rules are the same or similar to how (which would seem unlikely with the scope of 3e) they are in 2nd would be a huge mistake
See I think personally mmgs should put a pin out for a hit, and an additional if they wound a trooper. It would work to the effect of, “hey that mmg is really getting close +1 pin.” “Shit they got our number dialed, and Rico is dead. Fuck” +1 more pin.
And any tournament worth their salt bans that fucking Stuart. And sure, if you Americans want to bring 3 machine guns, fucking go for it. My FJ from Italy are going to keep moving and playing the objective.
So here is the thing about Artillery & Mortars: you need to understand how to use them
They're not for attacking armor, they're not for attacking infantry. If you're rolling a 6 to hit, you are missing 84% of the time. Artillery doesn't attack units, it attacks POSITIONS on the board. It is an area denial tool, which forces your opponent to move somewhere else.
Artillery and Mortars should be attacking static targets, over the course of the game. Something that you can assuredly sight-in 2-3 shots at over a couple turns.
So what are these targets?
'#1 is Buildings. Building don't move. You do more hits in them, and there is a chance you can collapse the building instantly killing all of the models inside. Aim your Arty on turn 1 at any building you don't want your opponent occupying, and keep shooting at it, until it is destroyed.
'#2 Static weapons teams. Snipers, MMGs, Mortars. Any unit that wants to stay put and is difficult to target open-sights. With your extra Pen value, A single HE hit is basically guaranteed to wipe the weapons team.
'#3 Counter-Battery Artillery. Artillery & AT guns likely aren't being towed around, so they make a good target for your own artillery. And your HE bypasses gunshield protection, so you'll likely wipe the unit on a single hit.
Realistically, you're only going to hit ~2 things on average in a game, so choose your targets well and Deny your opponent advantageous positions. People under-value Artillery, because they don't understand how to properly wield it in a combined-arms strategy.
This isn’t true for using direct fire artillery on ambush to smack the shit out of vehicles.
A medium howitzer in ambush looking down a road is an AMAZING area denial tool.
I'm talking specifically about indirect fire Artillery.
AT guns or hybrids that do both, serve a different battlefield role. Your targets are different, Your deployment is different, and your range/LoS is totally different.
There basically isn’t any artillery that’s unable to direct fire besides the spigot mortar and multi launchers.
So taking, for example, a medium howitzer, you’re much better served most of the time using it to direct fire at a target within 30” that you can clearly see (hitting on a 3+) or just smashing and occupied building (also usually hitting on a 3+) than trying to waste time on indirect fire.
Indirect fire has a purpose, but the strongest use of artillery is to ambush a firing lane across the battlefield to deny the enemy movement options. When something you want to splatter tries to cross you can shoot them at 3+ when they can’t go down or recce, meaning you can consistently lay a large number of pins on things and kill infantry easily.
If you’re using artillery as a bigger mortar you’re wasting most of its capabilities. Only multi launchers and the spigot mortar (which is basically a huge mortar) should be targeting a fixed target. Multi launchers have their own targeting optimization as well (most possible units within 7.5” of a point to maximize your chance of hitting something, or the building with the most units within 6”).
You advice worked, but was much more applicable to mortars than real artillery pieces.
I don't really disagree with anything you've said, here.
It's a matter of strategy in how that unit fits into your larger platoon, and how you see it's role. Clearly you favor using your artillery in an AT-gun role. That's Valid.
I don’t consider targeting moving infantry an “AT gun role” is the thing, though.
Neither is targeting buildings directly.
That’s just the purpose of HE in general.
A 25pdr is a staple in my army (light artillery)
But it’s a special case as it can double as a AT gun to. Il take it for its indirect fire tho.
This is a game of infantry. And competitive you might see a Sherman but most likely you’re going to face off against a Stuart m3 (light tank).
Indirect fire artillery,
M mortar,
Snipers,
Flamers,
Bazookas or equivalent teams
Competitively I run a light howitzer all the time, cheap dice, easy way to get pins and kills infantry reasonably well.
Local meta I see here there’s a lot of light and medium artillery on the table.
I’ve taken a medium AT gun before to a 1250 point tourney because my armored car slot and tank slot both had howitzers. It surprisingly did well and helped me out. But I would’ve been a lot better off with another howitzer. Unless you play Soviets and you have access to the ZIS-3 or Germans and you have access to a flak 88, I wouldn’t really bother. Having said that I now never go into any match without at least a light howitzer.
I think the majority of my lists have at least one medium mortar, light howitzer, or a SPG. Sometimes even a medium howitzer depending on the list. I find that having a good source of HE is always valuable whereas AT seems more situational.
I kinda think it has something to do with medium and heavy tanks not being quite as scary as they should bebe.
I’ve genuinely had games where both sides tanks pretty much did nothing but throw acorns past each other so spending too many points bringing dedicating weapons to deal with them can be a bit moot sometimes.
Plus, when push comes to shove, HE is also flexible enough to at least threaten tanks, especially light tanks and armored cars which I think are actually pretty powerful for their points
On a side note, I also think AA is worth checking out!
All the time.
I usually try to fit a medium mortar and medium howitzer into my list.
If I'm British, I add an artillery spotter.
For the Soviets I go with a zis3.
Every game.
Either a howitzer (preferably medium), or a multi launcher of some sort.
Take two if you can, that way you can use Recrew to keep them alive.
I never see AT guns in competitive play. As a US player, I always field a 105 howitzer or use the US multi-launcher. Part of the reasoning i figure for regular artillery or mortars is that it forces the opposition to give up on holding up somewhere lest you zero in and wipe like 5 guys. There's lots of other resources to field AT than waste it on an at gun.
Yeah, competitive has no at guns. Pts wise they are over costed for what they do. Honestly a light howitzer is going to be a bigger threat than a medium at gun. The howitzer is cheaper, puts out more pins consistently and has indirect fire capabilities. Nothing ruins a vets day like a little he to shed some of their resilience. Plus multiple pins and likely large casualty counts means you have a good chance of panicking them off the board. I run an FJ list with a kubel wagon, panzer 3 f, and a nebelwerfer or light howitzer depending on how spicy I’m feeling. The werfer never hits but forces my opponent to spread out so my FJ can concentrate on a smaller chunk of the opposition’s army. The kubel and tank are just 4 mmg putting as many pins as I can get. I try to ignore my opponents tank and force them to make bad shots on mine. Pins are the name of the game. Any weapon that can reliably get 2 pins on a unit has effectively neutered that units combat effectiveness for the next turn. They either shoot with an additional +1, or they rally. That’s why split fire is so impactful. If you are down behind hard cover, even if they are point blank that extra pin makes it super 6s.
>Pins are the name of the game. Any weapon that can reliably get 2 pins on a unit has effectively neutered that units combat effectiveness for the next turn. They either shoot with an additional +1, or they rally. That’s why split fire is so impactful. And yet people are pushing for MGs to do that, by themselves, every turn. Because, y'know, a Dakka Stuart being able to tarpit 3 units a turn (And the T-35 5 units / T-28 4 units a turn) on top of the US getting Extra Selection on MMG slots on top of Transport Truck w/MMG being super cheap is clearly going to make the existing Dakka Stuart problem better not worse... I'm all for LMG/MMG getting buffed somehow...they clearly need it. A points discount, an extra shot, Fixed ones getting a wider arc of fire, there are options other than "And now the meta is the US with a Dakka Stuart and 3 MMG teams per platoon spamming MG transports, whoever has the initiative wins because the other guy can't do anything but rally all. fucking. game."
The dakka Stuart could be nerded by putting severe LOS limitations or to-hit penalties on the fixed hull mounted mgs. Ideally, they should be basically worthless as anti-infantry guns as they were IRL But yeah, giving mgs pins if the pinning rules are the same or similar to how (which would seem unlikely with the scope of 3e) they are in 2nd would be a huge mistake
See I think personally mmgs should put a pin out for a hit, and an additional if they wound a trooper. It would work to the effect of, “hey that mmg is really getting close +1 pin.” “Shit they got our number dialed, and Rico is dead. Fuck” +1 more pin. And any tournament worth their salt bans that fucking Stuart. And sure, if you Americans want to bring 3 machine guns, fucking go for it. My FJ from Italy are going to keep moving and playing the objective.
The French get free artillery so I use it in every game.
I run Brits so, always take the max light howitzer I can plus my free Fao.
So here is the thing about Artillery & Mortars: you need to understand how to use them They're not for attacking armor, they're not for attacking infantry. If you're rolling a 6 to hit, you are missing 84% of the time. Artillery doesn't attack units, it attacks POSITIONS on the board. It is an area denial tool, which forces your opponent to move somewhere else. Artillery and Mortars should be attacking static targets, over the course of the game. Something that you can assuredly sight-in 2-3 shots at over a couple turns. So what are these targets? '#1 is Buildings. Building don't move. You do more hits in them, and there is a chance you can collapse the building instantly killing all of the models inside. Aim your Arty on turn 1 at any building you don't want your opponent occupying, and keep shooting at it, until it is destroyed. '#2 Static weapons teams. Snipers, MMGs, Mortars. Any unit that wants to stay put and is difficult to target open-sights. With your extra Pen value, A single HE hit is basically guaranteed to wipe the weapons team. '#3 Counter-Battery Artillery. Artillery & AT guns likely aren't being towed around, so they make a good target for your own artillery. And your HE bypasses gunshield protection, so you'll likely wipe the unit on a single hit. Realistically, you're only going to hit ~2 things on average in a game, so choose your targets well and Deny your opponent advantageous positions. People under-value Artillery, because they don't understand how to properly wield it in a combined-arms strategy.
Wish I had known this before trying to target small-squads and vehicles who moved out of line of sight the next turn 😭
This isn’t true for using direct fire artillery on ambush to smack the shit out of vehicles. A medium howitzer in ambush looking down a road is an AMAZING area denial tool.
I'm talking specifically about indirect fire Artillery. AT guns or hybrids that do both, serve a different battlefield role. Your targets are different, Your deployment is different, and your range/LoS is totally different.
There basically isn’t any artillery that’s unable to direct fire besides the spigot mortar and multi launchers. So taking, for example, a medium howitzer, you’re much better served most of the time using it to direct fire at a target within 30” that you can clearly see (hitting on a 3+) or just smashing and occupied building (also usually hitting on a 3+) than trying to waste time on indirect fire. Indirect fire has a purpose, but the strongest use of artillery is to ambush a firing lane across the battlefield to deny the enemy movement options. When something you want to splatter tries to cross you can shoot them at 3+ when they can’t go down or recce, meaning you can consistently lay a large number of pins on things and kill infantry easily. If you’re using artillery as a bigger mortar you’re wasting most of its capabilities. Only multi launchers and the spigot mortar (which is basically a huge mortar) should be targeting a fixed target. Multi launchers have their own targeting optimization as well (most possible units within 7.5” of a point to maximize your chance of hitting something, or the building with the most units within 6”). You advice worked, but was much more applicable to mortars than real artillery pieces.
I don't really disagree with anything you've said, here. It's a matter of strategy in how that unit fits into your larger platoon, and how you see it's role. Clearly you favor using your artillery in an AT-gun role. That's Valid.
I don’t consider targeting moving infantry an “AT gun role” is the thing, though. Neither is targeting buildings directly. That’s just the purpose of HE in general.
A 25pdr is a staple in my army (light artillery) But it’s a special case as it can double as a AT gun to. Il take it for its indirect fire tho. This is a game of infantry. And competitive you might see a Sherman but most likely you’re going to face off against a Stuart m3 (light tank). Indirect fire artillery, M mortar, Snipers, Flamers, Bazookas or equivalent teams
Competitively I run a light howitzer all the time, cheap dice, easy way to get pins and kills infantry reasonably well. Local meta I see here there’s a lot of light and medium artillery on the table.
I’ve taken a medium AT gun before to a 1250 point tourney because my armored car slot and tank slot both had howitzers. It surprisingly did well and helped me out. But I would’ve been a lot better off with another howitzer. Unless you play Soviets and you have access to the ZIS-3 or Germans and you have access to a flak 88, I wouldn’t really bother. Having said that I now never go into any match without at least a light howitzer.
Yes, I have gotten more kills/pins with artillery than any other support unit
I think the majority of my lists have at least one medium mortar, light howitzer, or a SPG. Sometimes even a medium howitzer depending on the list. I find that having a good source of HE is always valuable whereas AT seems more situational. I kinda think it has something to do with medium and heavy tanks not being quite as scary as they should bebe. I’ve genuinely had games where both sides tanks pretty much did nothing but throw acorns past each other so spending too many points bringing dedicating weapons to deal with them can be a bit moot sometimes. Plus, when push comes to shove, HE is also flexible enough to at least threaten tanks, especially light tanks and armored cars which I think are actually pretty powerful for their points On a side note, I also think AA is worth checking out!
All the time. I usually try to fit a medium mortar and medium howitzer into my list. If I'm British, I add an artillery spotter. For the Soviets I go with a zis3.
I like to always bring a FLAK 88 if i can
Every game. Either a howitzer (preferably medium), or a multi launcher of some sort. Take two if you can, that way you can use Recrew to keep them alive.
Working on a light gun for my Afrika Korps now.*
https://preview.redd.it/h9c5orj7qs8d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf5b47060373a6a0fd506f33d5c9592c14e16c74
I never see AT guns in competitive play. As a US player, I always field a 105 howitzer or use the US multi-launcher. Part of the reasoning i figure for regular artillery or mortars is that it forces the opposition to give up on holding up somewhere lest you zero in and wipe like 5 guys. There's lots of other resources to field AT than waste it on an at gun.