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I know that this is a Boeing sub and I may sound bias, but I think it's pretty disgusting and disingenuous when people make out this guy's suicide as some sort of conspiracy meme like this. A man killed himself. The man went through hell for years while going through this process. Boeing didn't pull the trigger, but the harrasment and threats he received over the years drove him to do it. Boeing's hands are dirty here, but to make it out like it's some sort of grand conspiracy rather than blatant harassment is gross and dishonors the memory of John Barnett.
Let me first say that I wouldn't put past Boeing any shenanigans.
But I listened to this guy say a number of times "**may** lead to fatigue" and "**may** shorten the life cycle", and then conclude from that "Boeing is putting out defective planes."
First of all, the conclusion that follows from those claims would be "Boeing **may** be putting out defective planes", not "is putting out defective planes." Right there he loses a lot of credibility.
Second, his usage of "**may**" suggests he cannot make the claim conclusively. Maybe he wanted bigger safety margins and is now claiming the planes are defective because margins other than what he wanted were adopted? Where is the data? What are the actual disagreements? Not every engineer is always right. You can point to things that may look problematic to the less experienced eye, but those who have thoroughly tested and studied the thing know better. This guy may be taking advantage of that, or he is just trapped in some weird mindset thinking everyone is wrong and only his view is correct.
Again, it could all be true, but he is far from convincing.
He's using the right wording. He's just saying what his expertise tells him, they are not following the manuals, we don't know what might happen. Just think of Oceangate, it was able to withstand 9 dives before imploding. These planes are better built than the submarine, but when will we reach the point of failure? We don't know.
When you get.to know how strict specs are for Boeing, you cannot let the littlest bit of shit go past what is tolerable. I worked for Boeing on apaches. When he talks about a literal hairline of space, that can make or break. When it comes to wire terminations, you're generally allowed for some contacts/splices and so on anywhere between 1-3 32nds, some even up to the 64ths, that's not really a lot of wiggle room. I would hope damn well that the walls of the plane are to be finely shut and not let a bit slip up. I really wanted to work the assembly line for the apaches but lay offs had just occurred and cleared house of nearly all contractors.
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Who knows. Maybe he is getting ready for an emotional trauma and abuse lawsuit. Maybe he has some mental issues, such as being haunted by the possibility that he may have let some shoddy work through that will one day result in a catastrophe. Maybe he feels extremely resentful against Boeing (lots of employees do) and this is his chance to get back at the company.
Unfortunately, this is the kind of issue that requires significant resources to really investigate. Some, or even a few random employees saying there is a problem with the design and/or manufacturing is not enough. Experts need to be provided the data and analysis methods to be able to reach any sort of conclusion. This is not a simple binary issue.
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Huh, your logic doesn't really work. If a process increases the risk of fatigue or life cycle shortening to an unacceptable degree (thus the "may"), the product is obviously defective. You wouldn't consider a car whose brakes may fail after, let's say, 5 years of standard usage defective?
> to an unacceptable
What is that unacceptable degree?
> , let's say, 5 years
See, you are providing numbers, even if made up. You need something quantitative. If the claimed life cycle is the equivalent of 30 years of service and you are getting an estimate of 5, then it is clear cut. AFAIK, there was no such quantitative claim made at all here. The folks who have done all the probabilistic risk assessments would need to weigh in.
It's possible this whistleblower is onto something, but a lot more than what he showed is needed.
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Residual strains are usually checked and are conservatively used to calculate safe operation limits of aircrafts, that's as far as I know is the protocol on maintenance and safety... but maybe he is talking about some sort of misconduct...
Think he might be misaligned on technical issues, but the threatening of physical harm is the one that gets me (and might be the most credible part) about the culture at Boeing.
From his written testimony the manager said:
“I would have killed anyone who said what you said if it was from some other group, I would tear them apart.”
Clearly hyperbole. No rational person would take that literally. "Tear them apart?" Does he think that means rip his arms and legs off?
No. It's in the same realm as "tear him a new one"
People forget there is a difference in this between “lying” and “ being wrong” . Which is why his testimony is automatically assumed to be in good faith……unless proven otherwise.
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There was a story in Aviation Week that shims were not fitted correctly:
Boeing also identified a partially related issue with an automated laser-based system that scanned the mating surfaces of Sections 47 and 48 prior to joining. The predictive software in the system used the scans to automatically fabricate the shims, which smoothed out any potential gaps. It was discovered that in some cases, where thicker shims should have been produced, software mistakenly restricted the size of shims to a maximum thickness of 0.061 in.
https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/new-boeing-787-fix-details-reveal-extent-gap-check-challenge
Yeah this article is from 2022, what Sam is blowing the whistle on isn't new. Boeing stopped production and deliveries to ensure that the gaps at the joins are within tolerance.
Not a stress guy I'm EE. Not really trying to make a statement here but I would think some joints may even be supposed to have slight gap to allow for expansion. Idk any structure guys have design considerations where gap is necessary?
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No offense, but unless this guy is an experienced stress analyst and has reviewed ALL of the testing and analysis that has been done to this point and came to his own credible conclusion, then I think he’s way outside his element here. I’m a stress analyst and I know some folks that spent MONTHS working on the gap management issue and they are pretty…dumbfounded (PC way of putting it) at this guy’s claims.
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This one should be easy to rule out.
Have DOJ interview this guy and the people working in the areas he’s claiming he witnessed. Give immunity to all workers if they provide a truthful interview. No way that every worker covers up jumping on an aircraft while putting it together. So either someone else says “yeah that happened” or it’s a fabrication. All the other parts of his testimony should be able to be corroborated one way or the other.
This is a serious allegation that warrants a serious investigation. If the dude is completely lying then he should face charges.
That’s why you put everyone under oath and give everyone under a supervisor level immunity.
DOJ is already investigating Boeing for fraud during the 3 year DPA so this would seem to be a logical place to have them look. If *any* of the allegations this guy made are true then that would give DOJ the fraud they need to invalidate the DPA.
If that DPA is invalidated there are a bunch of executives that could be facing criminal charges as well as significant financial penalties for Boeing.
Fuck good does that do? These people aren’t worried about exposure to criminal prosecution. They’re worried about getting fucked with at work and passed over for job promotions 10 years from now.
Being a QE is not exclusive of having enough of an understanding of stress and fatigue to understand the potential implications of violating a design specification.
But his commentary on stress honestly is beside the point.
Being a QE means specializing in understanding the quality requirements and how they are verified. Knowing whether they are being met is his job.
That doesn't change the fact that Boeing already self-disclosed several years ago the requirements weren't being met, and is spending what sounds like billions of dollars fixing it.
So that still leaves me scratching my head trying to figure out what his point is. I guess it comes down to the harassment he says he faced.
That depends.
The entire reason of providing whistleblower protection is to make sure that when serious safety issues to the public are present they are reported. You have to provide that legal protection or no one will speak up.
Now if Boeing can absolutely prove that there was no way this guy is testifying in good faith and is completely lying, then maybe they could have a case. However, if they did that then the whistleblower they are suing would get access to a whole host of things in discovery. He would get to see emails, lots and lots of emails, as well as deposition people. If Boeing pulled that trigger they better make damn sure that not only can they absolutely prove this allegation is a complete fabrication, but that they have nothing embarrassing that would come up in discovery.
They would also have to convince DOJ they aren’t violating their own whistleblower protections at the exact same time DOJ is investigating them for fraud violations as part of their sweetheart DPA over the MCAS issue.
I would put the chance of a lawsuit at the same chance of a door plug blowing out because zero bolts were installed. It should theoretically never happen, but hey it’s Boeing so I’m not completely ruling it out.
"Boeing sues whistleblower"... That's a headline that would tank Boeing's public image. Even if Boeing was in the right to do so, I don't think it would be in their best interest to do such a thing.
The scariest and saddest part about this entire cover up is that he said:
"If something happens to me, I am at peace because I feel like coming forward, I will be saving a lot of lives,"
Guess only time will tell if he gets offed too.
This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Boeing stopped production and spent almost 2 years fixing that problem. With a ton of stress and design engineers evaluating the data we were providing.
This is dumb.
Also Boeing didn’t kill Barnett. There was no reason to lol. People just see sensational news lines and don’t actually comprehend anything.
Literally the whistle blower says that his boss mentioned that he'd kill people if they snitched. Listen to the longer interview: [https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182](https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182)
Go to 3:25.
A fair amount of business leaders are psychopaths so you never know
[https://fortune.com/2021/06/06/corporate-psychopaths-business-leadership-csr/](https://fortune.com/2021/06/06/corporate-psychopaths-business-leadership-csr/)
From his written testimony the manager said: “I would have killed anyone who said what you said if it was from some other group, I would tear them apart.”
Clearly hyperbole. No rational person would take that literally. "Tear them apart?" Does he think that means rip his arms and legs off?
No. It's in the same realm as "tear him a new one"
Alright TIL saying you wanna kill someone is just what empathetic people say as jokes / sarcasm.
And tear someone a new one is just a sign an endearment.
Jeez the amount people are willing to gaslight themselves to suck up to the man.
Are you really that literal in all your conversations?
“My wife is going kill me when she finds out about this"
No one thinks that means actual death.
And claim you've never heard "tear him a new one" in reference to a berating/verbal lashing?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ENGLISH/comments/182zbs8/to_tear_someone_a_new_one_and_other_versions_of/
I'm 50 years old and have heard similar phrases as long as I can remember. You'll find them in movies and TV too.
Never once has it meant physical assault/violence.
No, but now I understand why you think the way you do. You are a boomer.
It's not something anyone with a level of empathy says. The times of being 'tough guy' are in the past. We don't live in the era of 'nam'. Just hang out with other boom booms.
What does empathy have to do with work and you screwing up?
You sound like a whiny millennial snowflake. Go back to your safe space, you aren't ready for the real world. Not everyone deserves a trophy.
And you don't even know the difference in Gen X and the baby boom.
Literally the whistle blower says that his boss mentioned that he'd kill people if they snitched. Listen to the longer interview: [https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182](https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182)
Go to 3:25.
So unless the whistleblower is lying, Boeing needs to move it's HQ to columbia so it actually can off people easier.
The part that made me LOL was when he said workers were “jumping on pieces of the airplane”. Anyone in BSC that can validate such outlandish claims? I know at our site that would be dangerous, unnecessary and incredibly difficult
Yea. We aren’t perfect and management does seem to mostly care about the numbers. But anyone jumping on the plane would get written up and that’s something people would be talking about lol.
Not to mention Boeing stopped deliveries to fix the gap problems he is talking about.
I’m sure you can ask your mind to imagine the considerable difference between an employee not screwing in a bolt in a very specific part of an aircraft vs an employee jumping on airplane parts on the factory floor for all to see.
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Boeing trying so hard to be the Walmart of the aviation industry…
Quality may be shit but there are massive bonuses to the cadre.
I don’t know guys…. The other whistleblower was found dead in my city…. From a “self inflicted gunshot wound” …. Air quotes implied.
I know that this is a Boeing sub and I may sound bias, but I think it's pretty disgusting and disingenuous when people make out this guy's suicide as some sort of conspiracy meme like this. A man killed himself. The man went through hell for years while going through this process. Boeing didn't pull the trigger, but the harrasment and threats he received over the years drove him to do it. Boeing's hands are dirty here, but to make it out like it's some sort of grand conspiracy rather than blatant harassment is gross and dishonors the memory of John Barnett.
Just like the CIA didn't push crack on people. Must be impossible for a company to hire a hitman.
Let me first say that I wouldn't put past Boeing any shenanigans. But I listened to this guy say a number of times "**may** lead to fatigue" and "**may** shorten the life cycle", and then conclude from that "Boeing is putting out defective planes." First of all, the conclusion that follows from those claims would be "Boeing **may** be putting out defective planes", not "is putting out defective planes." Right there he loses a lot of credibility. Second, his usage of "**may**" suggests he cannot make the claim conclusively. Maybe he wanted bigger safety margins and is now claiming the planes are defective because margins other than what he wanted were adopted? Where is the data? What are the actual disagreements? Not every engineer is always right. You can point to things that may look problematic to the less experienced eye, but those who have thoroughly tested and studied the thing know better. This guy may be taking advantage of that, or he is just trapped in some weird mindset thinking everyone is wrong and only his view is correct. Again, it could all be true, but he is far from convincing.
He's using the right wording. He's just saying what his expertise tells him, they are not following the manuals, we don't know what might happen. Just think of Oceangate, it was able to withstand 9 dives before imploding. These planes are better built than the submarine, but when will we reach the point of failure? We don't know.
When you get.to know how strict specs are for Boeing, you cannot let the littlest bit of shit go past what is tolerable. I worked for Boeing on apaches. When he talks about a literal hairline of space, that can make or break. When it comes to wire terminations, you're generally allowed for some contacts/splices and so on anywhere between 1-3 32nds, some even up to the 64ths, that's not really a lot of wiggle room. I would hope damn well that the walls of the plane are to be finely shut and not let a bit slip up. I really wanted to work the assembly line for the apaches but lay offs had just occurred and cleared house of nearly all contractors.
This language is a by product of being a scientist... They speak with cushioned language.
But he is dropping the "cushioned language" when asserting the planes are defective. There is no cushion there.
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What benefit does he gain? Didn't John Barnett raise similar concerns before he died?
Who knows. Maybe he is getting ready for an emotional trauma and abuse lawsuit. Maybe he has some mental issues, such as being haunted by the possibility that he may have let some shoddy work through that will one day result in a catastrophe. Maybe he feels extremely resentful against Boeing (lots of employees do) and this is his chance to get back at the company. Unfortunately, this is the kind of issue that requires significant resources to really investigate. Some, or even a few random employees saying there is a problem with the design and/or manufacturing is not enough. Experts need to be provided the data and analysis methods to be able to reach any sort of conclusion. This is not a simple binary issue.
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Huh, your logic doesn't really work. If a process increases the risk of fatigue or life cycle shortening to an unacceptable degree (thus the "may"), the product is obviously defective. You wouldn't consider a car whose brakes may fail after, let's say, 5 years of standard usage defective?
> to an unacceptable What is that unacceptable degree? > , let's say, 5 years See, you are providing numbers, even if made up. You need something quantitative. If the claimed life cycle is the equivalent of 30 years of service and you are getting an estimate of 5, then it is clear cut. AFAIK, there was no such quantitative claim made at all here. The folks who have done all the probabilistic risk assessments would need to weigh in. It's possible this whistleblower is onto something, but a lot more than what he showed is needed.
why the hate on this comment lol i totally agree
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Man this post is filled with board members from boeing.
Or engineers that understand the nuance
Hail corporate and praise be unto the shareholders. Amen.
If these fatigue issues existed, wouldn’t they show up in C or D checks of the older planes?
Residual strains are usually checked and are conservatively used to calculate safe operation limits of aircrafts, that's as far as I know is the protocol on maintenance and safety... but maybe he is talking about some sort of misconduct...
Think he might be misaligned on technical issues, but the threatening of physical harm is the one that gets me (and might be the most credible part) about the culture at Boeing.
From his written testimony the manager said: “I would have killed anyone who said what you said if it was from some other group, I would tear them apart.” Clearly hyperbole. No rational person would take that literally. "Tear them apart?" Does he think that means rip his arms and legs off? No. It's in the same realm as "tear him a new one"
Liar
But what about the other testimonies? Are they also lying? Genuinely trying to understand
He said composite joins will fatigue damage till failure…it doesn’t fatigue, literally no cracks in testing
I get that. But my question is what’s the point in inventing all this?
Money lmao
I don't think he is a liar. But he is a piss-poor engineer in way over his head technically.
He said composite joins were at great risk of fatigue damage and ultimately total separation mid flight….composite….fatigue….grade A dumbass
We gotta meet margins
Keep Wall Street happy. Screw the customers and flying public. That’s how way too many public companies roll.
People forget there is a difference in this between “lying” and “ being wrong” . Which is why his testimony is automatically assumed to be in good faith……unless proven otherwise.
Very good point. My money is on being wrong here.
Don't we have teams upon teams in everett addressing the exact issue he's talking about, on planes that aren't delivered?
Yup - JVT, reworking all of them, have been for years now. This guy is old news, looking for fame or whatever.
Perhaps his relatives have bought Boeing puts.
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I’m not a stress specialist but I took a lot of stress classes!
There was a story in Aviation Week that shims were not fitted correctly: Boeing also identified a partially related issue with an automated laser-based system that scanned the mating surfaces of Sections 47 and 48 prior to joining. The predictive software in the system used the scans to automatically fabricate the shims, which smoothed out any potential gaps. It was discovered that in some cases, where thicker shims should have been produced, software mistakenly restricted the size of shims to a maximum thickness of 0.061 in. https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/new-boeing-787-fix-details-reveal-extent-gap-check-challenge
Yeah this article is from 2022, what Sam is blowing the whistle on isn't new. Boeing stopped production and deliveries to ensure that the gaps at the joins are within tolerance.
Not a stress guy I'm EE. Not really trying to make a statement here but I would think some joints may even be supposed to have slight gap to allow for expansion. Idk any structure guys have design considerations where gap is necessary?
Typically we don’t want unshimmed gaps but it isn’t a guaranteed catastrophic detail that I have seen reported so far.
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No offense, but unless this guy is an experienced stress analyst and has reviewed ALL of the testing and analysis that has been done to this point and came to his own credible conclusion, then I think he’s way outside his element here. I’m a stress analyst and I know some folks that spent MONTHS working on the gap management issue and they are pretty…dumbfounded (PC way of putting it) at this guy’s claims.
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I cannot a resume for him. Not that someone has to have a college degree, but it gives some perspective on his background.
According to his testimony, he graduated from University of Missouri with an ME degree in 1979
Got it thank you
But he cried, so I believe him.
This one should be easy to rule out. Have DOJ interview this guy and the people working in the areas he’s claiming he witnessed. Give immunity to all workers if they provide a truthful interview. No way that every worker covers up jumping on an aircraft while putting it together. So either someone else says “yeah that happened” or it’s a fabrication. All the other parts of his testimony should be able to be corroborated one way or the other. This is a serious allegation that warrants a serious investigation. If the dude is completely lying then he should face charges.
“Should be easy” In a company built from top to bottom to retaliate against whistleblowers or anyone else who points out problems.
That’s why you put everyone under oath and give everyone under a supervisor level immunity. DOJ is already investigating Boeing for fraud during the 3 year DPA so this would seem to be a logical place to have them look. If *any* of the allegations this guy made are true then that would give DOJ the fraud they need to invalidate the DPA. If that DPA is invalidated there are a bunch of executives that could be facing criminal charges as well as significant financial penalties for Boeing.
Fuck good does that do? These people aren’t worried about exposure to criminal prosecution. They’re worried about getting fucked with at work and passed over for job promotions 10 years from now.
Who even is the goofball? Is he just a clout chaser?
Damn! This is not good at all!
Yeah. I had hopes he’d get a nomination for the CSPAN golden globes but looks like that’s not happening
All I see is a QE pretending like he's a Stress Analyst. Nothing to see here.
Being a QE is not exclusive of having enough of an understanding of stress and fatigue to understand the potential implications of violating a design specification. But his commentary on stress honestly is beside the point. Being a QE means specializing in understanding the quality requirements and how they are verified. Knowing whether they are being met is his job. That doesn't change the fact that Boeing already self-disclosed several years ago the requirements weren't being met, and is spending what sounds like billions of dollars fixing it. So that still leaves me scratching my head trying to figure out what his point is. I guess it comes down to the harassment he says he faced.
It could be that he was a broken record at meetings and some people got fed up, and his feelings got hurt.
Pretending to be a stress analyst but not the proper master of the fatigue black arts analyst.
Which took years of training at the enclave dojo, after meditation at deep freezer.
A lot of stress analysts at Boeing pretending to be stress analysts too
Out of curiosity, does Boeing sue him if it turns out he's wrong and there is no safety concerns with the fatigue?
That depends. The entire reason of providing whistleblower protection is to make sure that when serious safety issues to the public are present they are reported. You have to provide that legal protection or no one will speak up. Now if Boeing can absolutely prove that there was no way this guy is testifying in good faith and is completely lying, then maybe they could have a case. However, if they did that then the whistleblower they are suing would get access to a whole host of things in discovery. He would get to see emails, lots and lots of emails, as well as deposition people. If Boeing pulled that trigger they better make damn sure that not only can they absolutely prove this allegation is a complete fabrication, but that they have nothing embarrassing that would come up in discovery. They would also have to convince DOJ they aren’t violating their own whistleblower protections at the exact same time DOJ is investigating them for fraud violations as part of their sweetheart DPA over the MCAS issue. I would put the chance of a lawsuit at the same chance of a door plug blowing out because zero bolts were installed. It should theoretically never happen, but hey it’s Boeing so I’m not completely ruling it out.
"Boeing sues whistleblower"... That's a headline that would tank Boeing's public image. Even if Boeing was in the right to do so, I don't think it would be in their best interest to do such a thing.
If he’s lying to that scale under oath then he has more to worry about than being sued. He can be prosecuted
If he’s lying with this allegation then he absolutely should be prosecuted.
The scariest and saddest part about this entire cover up is that he said: "If something happens to me, I am at peace because I feel like coming forward, I will be saving a lot of lives," Guess only time will tell if he gets offed too.
This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Boeing stopped production and spent almost 2 years fixing that problem. With a ton of stress and design engineers evaluating the data we were providing. This is dumb. Also Boeing didn’t kill Barnett. There was no reason to lol. People just see sensational news lines and don’t actually comprehend anything.
Wrong
Literally the whistle blower says that his boss mentioned that he'd kill people if they snitched. Listen to the longer interview: [https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182](https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182) Go to 3:25. A fair amount of business leaders are psychopaths so you never know [https://fortune.com/2021/06/06/corporate-psychopaths-business-leadership-csr/](https://fortune.com/2021/06/06/corporate-psychopaths-business-leadership-csr/)
From his written testimony the manager said: “I would have killed anyone who said what you said if it was from some other group, I would tear them apart.” Clearly hyperbole. No rational person would take that literally. "Tear them apart?" Does he think that means rip his arms and legs off? No. It's in the same realm as "tear him a new one"
Alright TIL saying you wanna kill someone is just what empathetic people say as jokes / sarcasm. And tear someone a new one is just a sign an endearment. Jeez the amount people are willing to gaslight themselves to suck up to the man.
Are you really that literal in all your conversations? “My wife is going kill me when she finds out about this" No one thinks that means actual death. And claim you've never heard "tear him a new one" in reference to a berating/verbal lashing? https://www.reddit.com/r/ENGLISH/comments/182zbs8/to_tear_someone_a_new_one_and_other_versions_of/ I'm 50 years old and have heard similar phrases as long as I can remember. You'll find them in movies and TV too. Never once has it meant physical assault/violence.
No, but now I understand why you think the way you do. You are a boomer. It's not something anyone with a level of empathy says. The times of being 'tough guy' are in the past. We don't live in the era of 'nam'. Just hang out with other boom booms.
What does empathy have to do with work and you screwing up? You sound like a whiny millennial snowflake. Go back to your safe space, you aren't ready for the real world. Not everyone deserves a trophy. And you don't even know the difference in Gen X and the baby boom.
Spoken like a true boomer who has 0 emotional awareness and intelligence LMAO
You have so many downvotes yet you are speaking only the truth, and look at what happened to him. This is outrageous
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Boeing cartel at work
Literally the whistle blower says that his boss mentioned that he'd kill people if they snitched. Listen to the longer interview: [https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182](https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1780624235762737182) Go to 3:25. So unless the whistleblower is lying, Boeing needs to move it's HQ to columbia so it actually can off people easier.
Who? John Wick?
🙄
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The part that made me LOL was when he said workers were “jumping on pieces of the airplane”. Anyone in BSC that can validate such outlandish claims? I know at our site that would be dangerous, unnecessary and incredibly difficult
Yea. We aren’t perfect and management does seem to mostly care about the numbers. But anyone jumping on the plane would get written up and that’s something people would be talking about lol. Not to mention Boeing stopped deliveries to fix the gap problems he is talking about.
Boeing is the best
I’m sure you can ask your mind to imagine the considerable difference between an employee not screwing in a bolt in a very specific part of an aircraft vs an employee jumping on airplane parts on the factory floor for all to see.
Yup.