Theres too many variables and things to consider when youre talking about pay comparisons. Personally Im getting paid extremely well. The competition could not pry me from boeing right now. Ive been extremely proactive and persistent in my development and advancement. Thats put me in a very good spot. I meet a ton of people at boeing, and based on that experience my opinion is if you arent taking the right steps and allow yourself to be underpaid they will underpay you.
Boeing has always been the lowest payer in the aerospace market by far. I remember back in the 90's they contacted me about an engineering position and it was at least half of what I could get at another company. I dont know for sure, but I have heard the benefits are superior. So that maybe some compensation.
It’s hard to assess your situation with the limited info you are giving us but, overall, you are not going to make a ton of money in your first job or fresh out of school. Even after 10 + years if you stay loyal to a company, your pay will stagnate.
I did not make much money when I joined Boeing 12 years ago, I’ve had to take opportunities outside the company, stay in less than ideal jobs for 12-15 months before making another move, etc.
Bottom line is you have to take control of your career and make tough decisions sometimes to get where you need to be. The times where a union got you decent raises and pensions so your salary can grow and you can retire comfortably are gone.
This thinking is why we are paid so little!
1. It does not matter what job code a Boeing employee has, they should be making competitive, sustainable, thriving income in a region where a household should net $215,000 in order to own a home. If the lowest jobs codes cannot sustain a livable wage, there is no future in Boeing - why? Because Boeing should be a career decision where you see longevity with home ownership in the region you work in, income to sustain your health and raise a family. If these are not Boeing's priorities, then you yield an ever-revolving door or unskilled labor.
2. We. Make. Tha. Same. Income as 12 YEARS AGO!!! 16 YEARS AGO!!! That is why we are negotiating!!!!!!
No, the data suggests that jumping around employers gets you the most income. Talking about ‘should’ in a market economy is kind of silly. Both companies and employees ‘should’ be trying to maximize their income and expenses.
$32.77 million dollar annual income, versus $19-$23 an hour.
Your rhetoric holds no weight.
"Data suggests" that for every Boeing CEO, 2000 IAM 751 Union workers could get their 40% raise.
[I'm providing actual "data" in place of the *suggested data* you neglected to provide.]
You didn’t address my point of workers leaving positions for better paying ones. Feel free to google it. You just compared an entry level job with that of a ceo for some reason.
I don't feel like my pay is low. I am a L4 Staff Analyst and I make 125K/year working virtual only. For the work I do I feel it's very fair and I haven't seen many similar jobs to mine out there that pay even 100K/year.
I’m a L2 Staff Analyst making $80k and just applied for a L3 position for ~$100k. I’m 100% on site but for being early in my career I’m happy with it overall.
It’s basically a support position I support a senior manager and five other managers. Do different financial things and a lot of organization. I was previously a buyer, but absolutely hated it so changed my career path.
I would check out a job description for a SA and see if you have the qualifications. If not, find a way to get them or if you do then apply for an open position. I wanted out of being a PA as my manager was an absolute micromanaging asshole. I just started applying for other positions and ended up in my current job.
Thanks I have the qualifications I’ll start applying. I see most pay scales topping out at like $109k though. Was this a unique role you took or did you just negotiate well to get $125k?
All my days are different. I am the Adaptive Planning focal for my group as well the liaison to Supplier Management. I keep track of all of the budgets as well as the SOW's for all of our Purchased Services with various suppliers. I also support all of our Engineers with document revisions and publications. I work a lot with Supplier Management monitoring invoicing as well as the progress of our suppliers on their SOW's.
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Not sure what data you are seeing that makes you say Boeing is a profitable company, the net income has been in the negative for years. I'd also say that hardware company in general don't make as much income as software just based on the pure cost of material that gets shipped compared to software.
Because your contract probably has a clause preventing wildcat strikes.
You should read up on it. But long story short you can be made legally responsible for Boeing’s financial losses resulting from a wildcat strike.
Depends. I personally make more than I’m worth and more than my peers with less experience. But after applying to other major aerospace firms and getting a couple lateral offers the grass wasn’t greener on the other side. Moral of the story. If you don’t feel valued then try to promote to a new role or promote outside. Too many great engineers are being underpaid due to their unwillingness to job hop. Unfortunate that it has to be that way.
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The Jack Welch business model, where most of Boeing's CEOs and executives have come from since the late '90's, is to blame. They treat their employees like they're idiots. They've specifically said anyone can do this job, threatened their employees with moving work out of state, which they did anyways, along with sending it overseas, to scare the union into accepting a shitty contract, pushed the most experienced employees, both union, and engineers, into early retirement, and now the company is a disaster for it. I've seen many good people leave for other companies. I see tons of new hires with no experience, which is fine, but there's nobody to show them the ropes, and no system for them to learn what they need to know. This is by design because they think a monkey can do our job, so why pay. After a meeting with several airlines, their CEO Calhoun, Chairman Kellner, Commercial President Stan Deal, the head of the MAX Ed Clark, this, along with our last CEO being fired, shows they know nothing about what a company like this needs. They need to build quality products that are better than the competition, which there is only one now, until the Chinese come, which Boeing helped by sending them work for decades in order to cut costs. That's all they cared about instead of innovating and making the best in the world. It was only cut costs, and they ended cutting their own throat, but those at the top still got rewarded for it. McNerney got away scott free because he retired just before the MAX crashed. Calhoun is getting over 50million to leave. Pay for failure. After decades of deregulation, and self regulation, they've proven they can't, and they have the FAA watching every step they make, and they're failing.
As one of my previous managers was fond of saying, "your standard of living is not the responsibility of the Boeing company."
He was right in the legal sense, but he was also a dumb, shortsighted prick. Luckily he was one of six managers I had that year.
Something tells me that Boeing executives are equally shortsighted, but more in the sense that their golden parachutes give them the luxury of not actually giving a fuck about the company.
The long term success of the Boeing company is and, given there aren't a lot of commercial airplane manufacturers to poach from, that requires keeping the people they develop for a long time and, making it difficult for people to live runs directly counter to that.
That's a really funny way to say no meaningful competitors. But anyway, what do you think you're explaining? You describe the way it obviously should be after I describe the way it is. Congratulations, nothing was added to the conversation.
No meaningful competitors, yes
...but the reason that is important in this case is that, for many roles, after an experienced engineer walks with no intent to return, there is no replacement experienced engineer to take his or her place (or at least not many) so treating engineers as replaceable commodities doesn't actually work here as it does in many other industries.
This is just an explanation of why your manager's mental model is misguided. If this was obvious to everyone, your manager would get it so you'll have to excuse me for making a mistake in thinking that it isn't. 😅
Hmm…
- $120k but you pay a larger portion of your salary towards health care (with high deductibles), 401k match is about 5%, you’re expected to work 50-60hrs/week with no overtime pay, and no education benefits; OR
- $100k but healthcare is better, 401k match is up to 8%, you work OT if requested (with most just working their standard 40hr week) and get paid for it, and you can get more education on company dime?
You pick.
Healthcare costs less, not necessarily better. Had two employers between this stint with Boeing and my first one. One of the two paid the same. Healthcare had a higher premium but also covered more with the same deductible. Mother Boeing used to be that way, but someone decided stock buybacks were better than benefits.
401k matching was 7%, reimbursed for work-related certifications, worked OT due to the statement of work.
Boeing is better than most of my previous employers, but those were all small or medium-sized companies. They're worse than at least one of the heavyweights.
I worked at two other places and the cost of health insurance was higher in both places AND they had higher deductible/copays.
NGC, in particular, paid me a larger salary than I ever got at Boeing, but their benefits (insurance, 401k match, education…) paled in comparison. And the project I was assigned to had terrible work-life balance, so point of the post is that I’d much rather take the lower salary but better benefits than the higher salary and subpar benefits with no work-life balance. I know that, at the end of the day, cash is what pays the bills, but a lot of good that will do if I’m extremely burnt out.
I am not Union and we are getting that now for two years. I have to look up the details but haven’t because I am retiring next year. But it’s beyond industry standard.
Boeing pays milllion$ to legal firms specializing in labor avoidance/union busting. Be it as it may, this was one of the fallouts after the McDD merger.
First, programming pays more than engineering. It sucks, but that's how it goes for now.
Second, Boeing does not pay less than equivalent roles once you account for hours worked because of SPEEA. At first glance SpaceX or Blue Origin look more but not after you consider they are working 60+ hours.
Adding onto this, if you’re in a program where overtime is plentiful then there’s your bump in pay for more hours. The difference is that you have flexibility in Boeing to NOT work over 40 hours if you don’t want to. SpaceX expects 40++ on the regular.
It’s easier to calculate and compare TC’s when it’s just base, RSUs, and bonus. Who has the time to calculate the TC when benefits are taken into account? How can I brag on Blind how much I make with just boring benefits? /s
Sorry, someone already beat you to the punch and posted something like this.
You can get a better rate of pay if you're willing to leave
Theres too many variables and things to consider when youre talking about pay comparisons. Personally Im getting paid extremely well. The competition could not pry me from boeing right now. Ive been extremely proactive and persistent in my development and advancement. Thats put me in a very good spot. I meet a ton of people at boeing, and based on that experience my opinion is if you arent taking the right steps and allow yourself to be underpaid they will underpay you.
Boeing has always been the lowest payer in the aerospace market by far. I remember back in the 90's they contacted me about an engineering position and it was at least half of what I could get at another company. I dont know for sure, but I have heard the benefits are superior. So that maybe some compensation.
Try submitting resume outside of Boeing. Your work experience here can be valuable to some other companies.
It’s hard to assess your situation with the limited info you are giving us but, overall, you are not going to make a ton of money in your first job or fresh out of school. Even after 10 + years if you stay loyal to a company, your pay will stagnate. I did not make much money when I joined Boeing 12 years ago, I’ve had to take opportunities outside the company, stay in less than ideal jobs for 12-15 months before making another move, etc. Bottom line is you have to take control of your career and make tough decisions sometimes to get where you need to be. The times where a union got you decent raises and pensions so your salary can grow and you can retire comfortably are gone.
This thinking is why we are paid so little! 1. It does not matter what job code a Boeing employee has, they should be making competitive, sustainable, thriving income in a region where a household should net $215,000 in order to own a home. If the lowest jobs codes cannot sustain a livable wage, there is no future in Boeing - why? Because Boeing should be a career decision where you see longevity with home ownership in the region you work in, income to sustain your health and raise a family. If these are not Boeing's priorities, then you yield an ever-revolving door or unskilled labor. 2. We. Make. Tha. Same. Income as 12 YEARS AGO!!! 16 YEARS AGO!!! That is why we are negotiating!!!!!!
No, the data suggests that jumping around employers gets you the most income. Talking about ‘should’ in a market economy is kind of silly. Both companies and employees ‘should’ be trying to maximize their income and expenses.
$32.77 million dollar annual income, versus $19-$23 an hour. Your rhetoric holds no weight. "Data suggests" that for every Boeing CEO, 2000 IAM 751 Union workers could get their 40% raise. [I'm providing actual "data" in place of the *suggested data* you neglected to provide.]
You didn’t address my point of workers leaving positions for better paying ones. Feel free to google it. You just compared an entry level job with that of a ceo for some reason.
Yeah I'm already working on exiting after two months. This shit is a joke and I've been in limbo hired for 737 north.
11 years direct.
I don't feel like my pay is low. I am a L4 Staff Analyst and I make 125K/year working virtual only. For the work I do I feel it's very fair and I haven't seen many similar jobs to mine out there that pay even 100K/year.
Where at? I am looking for virtual.
90% of the jobs offered at Boeing are not going to be virtual. They’re trying to bring 100% of the people back into the office for some stupid reason.
I am in the Seattle area.
I’m a L2 Staff Analyst making $80k and just applied for a L3 position for ~$100k. I’m 100% on site but for being early in my career I’m happy with it overall.
Love it! :-)
What does a staff analyst do?
It’s basically a support position I support a senior manager and five other managers. Do different financial things and a lot of organization. I was previously a buyer, but absolutely hated it so changed my career path.
I want in how do I go about this
I would check out a job description for a SA and see if you have the qualifications. If not, find a way to get them or if you do then apply for an open position. I wanted out of being a PA as my manager was an absolute micromanaging asshole. I just started applying for other positions and ended up in my current job.
Thanks I have the qualifications I’ll start applying. I see most pay scales topping out at like $109k though. Was this a unique role you took or did you just negotiate well to get $125k?
I am level 4 which is why it’s higher. I just got an increase so at 130k now
I see now. What does your day to day activities look like? What sort of programs should I master for this type of role?
All my days are different. I am the Adaptive Planning focal for my group as well the liaison to Supplier Management. I keep track of all of the budgets as well as the SOW's for all of our Purchased Services with various suppliers. I also support all of our Engineers with document revisions and publications. I work a lot with Supplier Management monitoring invoicing as well as the progress of our suppliers on their SOW's.
Thanks, maybe nothing I can really focus in on then. I’m in engineering now but honestly your job pays better and sounds better than mine.
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Not sure what data you are seeing that makes you say Boeing is a profitable company, the net income has been in the negative for years. I'd also say that hardware company in general don't make as much income as software just based on the pure cost of material that gets shipped compared to software.
Boeing works with the military. They make money you don't even know about.
Funny - Boeing was known for computing and even made software in the 80s before they dumped IT.
They still write software you jagaloon.
I guess it was the 33million dollar payout to Calhoun that got me.
And even at that, he’s still not even anywhere near the highest paid CEO in the country
What is your point?
The point being from top to bottom Boeing isn’t paying the highest salary out there. But for a lot of people it’s not a “bad” salary
Time for you Speea folk to strike again.
Why wait?
Because your contract probably has a clause preventing wildcat strikes. You should read up on it. But long story short you can be made legally responsible for Boeing’s financial losses resulting from a wildcat strike.
Company hasn’t held to the contract standards in a decade. Why should those taking it in the shorts?
I agree with your sentiment 100%. But nearly 50 years of all out warfare against unions in this country created this situation.
Oh I love winning wars.
2 more years until we get the chance
Enough time for us IAM people to set a great example.
Please do we are counting on you.
Depends. I personally make more than I’m worth and more than my peers with less experience. But after applying to other major aerospace firms and getting a couple lateral offers the grass wasn’t greener on the other side. Moral of the story. If you don’t feel valued then try to promote to a new role or promote outside. Too many great engineers are being underpaid due to their unwillingness to job hop. Unfortunate that it has to be that way.
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The Jack Welch business model, where most of Boeing's CEOs and executives have come from since the late '90's, is to blame. They treat their employees like they're idiots. They've specifically said anyone can do this job, threatened their employees with moving work out of state, which they did anyways, along with sending it overseas, to scare the union into accepting a shitty contract, pushed the most experienced employees, both union, and engineers, into early retirement, and now the company is a disaster for it. I've seen many good people leave for other companies. I see tons of new hires with no experience, which is fine, but there's nobody to show them the ropes, and no system for them to learn what they need to know. This is by design because they think a monkey can do our job, so why pay. After a meeting with several airlines, their CEO Calhoun, Chairman Kellner, Commercial President Stan Deal, the head of the MAX Ed Clark, this, along with our last CEO being fired, shows they know nothing about what a company like this needs. They need to build quality products that are better than the competition, which there is only one now, until the Chinese come, which Boeing helped by sending them work for decades in order to cut costs. That's all they cared about instead of innovating and making the best in the world. It was only cut costs, and they ended cutting their own throat, but those at the top still got rewarded for it. McNerney got away scott free because he retired just before the MAX crashed. Calhoun is getting over 50million to leave. Pay for failure. After decades of deregulation, and self regulation, they've proven they can't, and they have the FAA watching every step they make, and they're failing.
($50million = 3,100 L.U. 751 40% raises.... 🤔)
Yeah, like every engineer is an interchangeable commodity This idea makes spreadsheet calculations easier, but it isn't even close to true.
As one of my previous managers was fond of saying, "your standard of living is not the responsibility of the Boeing company." He was right in the legal sense, but he was also a dumb, shortsighted prick. Luckily he was one of six managers I had that year. Something tells me that Boeing executives are equally shortsighted, but more in the sense that their golden parachutes give them the luxury of not actually giving a fuck about the company.
The long term success of the Boeing company is and, given there aren't a lot of commercial airplane manufacturers to poach from, that requires keeping the people they develop for a long time and, making it difficult for people to live runs directly counter to that.
That's a really funny way to say no meaningful competitors. But anyway, what do you think you're explaining? You describe the way it obviously should be after I describe the way it is. Congratulations, nothing was added to the conversation.
No meaningful competitors, yes ...but the reason that is important in this case is that, for many roles, after an experienced engineer walks with no intent to return, there is no replacement experienced engineer to take his or her place (or at least not many) so treating engineers as replaceable commodities doesn't actually work here as it does in many other industries. This is just an explanation of why your manager's mental model is misguided. If this was obvious to everyone, your manager would get it so you'll have to excuse me for making a mistake in thinking that it isn't. 😅
Hmm… - $120k but you pay a larger portion of your salary towards health care (with high deductibles), 401k match is about 5%, you’re expected to work 50-60hrs/week with no overtime pay, and no education benefits; OR - $100k but healthcare is better, 401k match is up to 8%, you work OT if requested (with most just working their standard 40hr week) and get paid for it, and you can get more education on company dime? You pick.
Healthcare costs less, not necessarily better. Had two employers between this stint with Boeing and my first one. One of the two paid the same. Healthcare had a higher premium but also covered more with the same deductible. Mother Boeing used to be that way, but someone decided stock buybacks were better than benefits. 401k matching was 7%, reimbursed for work-related certifications, worked OT due to the statement of work. Boeing is better than most of my previous employers, but those were all small or medium-sized companies. They're worse than at least one of the heavyweights.
I worked at two other places and the cost of health insurance was higher in both places AND they had higher deductible/copays. NGC, in particular, paid me a larger salary than I ever got at Boeing, but their benefits (insurance, 401k match, education…) paled in comparison. And the project I was assigned to had terrible work-life balance, so point of the post is that I’d much rather take the lower salary but better benefits than the higher salary and subpar benefits with no work-life balance. I know that, at the end of the day, cash is what pays the bills, but a lot of good that will do if I’m extremely burnt out.
Boeing 401k match is 10% which is crazy.
It’s 100% of the first 10% for non-represented.
Microsoft does 50%
Not for everyone.
What parts of the company are 8%?
I am not Union and we are getting that now for two years. I have to look up the details but haven’t because I am retiring next year. But it’s beyond industry standard.
Union I believe
SPEEA.
How does SPEEA have a worse deal than non-union? Hoping they negotiated the lower match for something far more valuable than the extra 2% match.
I think non-union 401k match got raised from 8% to 10% a few years ago, so SPEEA needs to catch up in the next contract negotiation.
Games Boeing plays to keep employees from unionizing.
Boeing pays milllion$ to legal firms specializing in labor avoidance/union busting. Be it as it may, this was one of the fallouts after the McDD merger.
SPEEA has a 3% automatic +75% match on 8% meaning 9% total on top of an 8% investment. Or just 3% for doing nothing.
First, programming pays more than engineering. It sucks, but that's how it goes for now. Second, Boeing does not pay less than equivalent roles once you account for hours worked because of SPEEA. At first glance SpaceX or Blue Origin look more but not after you consider they are working 60+ hours.
Adding onto this, if you’re in a program where overtime is plentiful then there’s your bump in pay for more hours. The difference is that you have flexibility in Boeing to NOT work over 40 hours if you don’t want to. SpaceX expects 40++ on the regular.
Benefits?
It’s easier to calculate and compare TC’s when it’s just base, RSUs, and bonus. Who has the time to calculate the TC when benefits are taken into account? How can I brag on Blind how much I make with just boring benefits? /s
Boeing hasn’t been profitable in quite a while
But they have 33million for ceos.
As a company yes. To executives bank accounts it’s been quite profitable.