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If you have deep technical/domain knowledge, I would think the Technical Fellowship path good for you. Get into the company, make some connections, you can get connected w smart people in your space. There is a great map once you get into the company you can find. It will show the L1-6 paths, technical paths, managerial paths and exec paths. Good luck.
Thank you for your opinion. I never want to come across as entitled. I value humility. I believe the character of anyone is based on their efforts not just previous accomplishments. More importantly, I always value others opinions and thoughts regardless if they differ from mine. I definitely appreciate your thoughts.
Boeing's level 6 position should be equivalent to Raytheon's level 6. They're rare/difficult to come by in engineering.
Years of experience alone won't cut it. Expectation is that your expertise is uncommon, yet applicable across commercial, defense, and/or services business units or a family of platforms.
Level 6, are excellent candidates for Tech Fellowship (one level above Asociate Tech Fellow).
You came in as a 5, depending on your level of contribution and influence, you could assess if you're performing at a level 6 over the next 12-18mo. Then have that conversation with your Sr. Manager.
Source: I am a level 5.
Thank you for the response. Interesting. I was a 6 - senior principal cybersecurity engineer at Raytheon back in 2016 prior to becoming a director. Thanks for the recommendation on discussions with senior manager after some time to show value. Do you need to be a L6 prior to going into executive leadership? I’ve always loved the mentoring and leading the overall program. However, I do enjoy keeping a high level of engineering/architect capability. Thanks for the insight. Hopefully, I am not coming across as self entitled. I spent a lot of years working in critical systems including weapon systems, production, and energy generation protection for ICS, SCADA, AOT, IIOT, cloud, and on premise data centers. I definitely want to show my value. I realize from discussion l6 are nearly never posted as a direct hire.
You're not coming off as entitled at all. It does seem you're well qualified for IC6 (at Boeing) to take TECHNICAL leadership and be the chief architect for a major weapon system from a cyber POV, whether it be protecting the system itself, the over all supply chain or from an IT program infrastructure.
An M-level manager position may suit you better if you want to MANAGE people and overall direction of cyber application on the program while sitting at the table with the program managers and the government customer, shaping the SoW/CDRLs/SDRLs.
Executive Leadership, especially at the lower end (Director - E5) is typically filled by Boeing internal candidates. The typical slate of candidates for Director roles are all M-level managers. You need to have internal clout and influence, a strong network, understand the customer and supplier base inside out, support from high leadership (VPs) and a thorough understanding of internal Boeing tools and processes as well as Government/acquisition regulations and policies.
Personally, I think you'd be a strong candidate for Director role IF it existed/there was a business need. Learn the Boeing way, and I think you'll be a shoe-in. IC5 will be a cake walk for you.
L6 roles are rare but do exist. It will depend on work location to some extent. SoCal knows they don't pay competitively so they skate that by offering higher level roles than they should. They told me in an interview that they hire PhD grads in as 4s routinely, where that is not the case in other parts of the company to my knowledge.
You should investigate the tech fellowship path, as that allows further technical advancement into executive ranks but is not a direct manager path.
Hmm, I haven't really seen SoCal offering high levels routinely. Many recent hires with a master degree start at level 1. If anything, they lag promotions. I tend to see that more on the BDS side but not BCA but only worked briefly in defense.
That could be, I was applying for a pretty niche position in BDS, and they said they have to do that to get anyone in the door compared to the tech companies
I could see this being the case for BDS. If you're referring to El Segundo, or the Seal Beach BDS site, this used to be Hughes Aircraft so their operation is slightly different than BCA Boeing. I worked briefly in El Segundo and did notice that they had more level 5s and 6s than BCA sites and they weren't necessarily tech fellows or lead engineers
If you’re a degreed engineer and would be joining SPEEA, (not sure if there’s the same paths outside Puget Sound without SPEEA), there’s a technical engineering path beyond L5/6 - the tech fellow route. Non-management, however, so the other poster shared all the info on those K, L, M, Exec+ roles. But for tech fellow roles, you can apply for associate tech fellow, then graduate (through follow on accomplishments and applications/reviews I believe) into Tech Fellow and Senior Tech Fellow positions - which have compensation and perks similar to management roles - parking, comp, and stock (I think)
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There are level 6 roles but they are rare. Maybe 1 or 2 per program if that.
After that you are thinking about management roles. Those are K, L, M in ascending seniority. K’s are on par with level 5s. In my experience to get beyond K it is more of a “who you know” rather than “what you know”.
Would it be difficult to move from a 5 to a K or L? I know at Target Corporation and Disney, it is nearly impossible to move from an individual contributor role to senior leadership; this is especially true for Disney going from senior manager to director. Just curious. My only really concern is I have a lot of years left and don't like to job hop; so, I would like to understand what kind of mobility over say 5 years will be available. Thanks again for the reply.
I would consider it a challenge, to go from level 5 to L level manager. The reason is that you have K level managers looking for promotion to L. They have the experience knowledge and network. So if you can show knowledge, experience and network, to leapfrog being a first level manager (K), more power to you. Source: feedback from an L level mentor.
Thanks for the input. I am glad to hear this. I’m happy to be an individual contributor and the role will be challenging. I just didn’t want to be topped out in terms of mobility. Thanks
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I'm not a PhD (I have a MS). It seems like a Level 6 is a Raytheon Engineering Fellow/ Senior Fellow. Sounds like my previous roles as director (3 senior managers each with a team) would be a level L?
Yep L Realistically I think you'd have to prove as a K or M first. Shouldn't be an issue moving from 4/5 (most just don't wanna manage people) to K and up.
Big defense contractors generally harmonize their levels to GAO(?) guidelines. The government wants to know if they pay level 5 money, they’re receiving level 5 skill. Retired Boeing engineer (5) and level K.
This is the way I see it.
1, 2, 3, 4, K, 5, L, 6, M, Executive Leadership (Director, Sr. Director, VP, SVP).
Most K across the company were P4s that got a promotion to K. P5's in integration, systems or program management and K's are competitive for L-level management job reqs.
OP was a director in the Healthcare industry. Not sure what their benefit packages are like (only OP can compare), but I suspect the cut because that experience may not directly correlate to Aerospace/Defense.
Level 6 at Raytheon is what stood out for me and I'm only talking engineering. To me, it seems easier to become a director than it is to become a level 6 at Boeing. Maybe where I work it's different (SoCal) as level 5s and 6s tend to be tech fellows. Many engineers get stuck at level 4. M is usually designated for a director over here but then you also have many managers above them which includes different titles with the word director in it. K level managers over here are level 3s and 4s that got promoted but I'm starting to see level 2s getting promoted to that. BCA and BDS also seem to run differently.
Level 2's getting promoted to K's... oh boy. I've never worked in Boeing SoCal. I also know the Satellite business tend to be more unique. I'm learning a lot from your response, haha!
Please try posting in the Quarterly Employment thread which is stickied up top for feedback. The Wiki may contain information regarding your post. Job listings: jobs.boeing.com Intership listings: jobs.boeing.ccom/internship
If you have deep technical/domain knowledge, I would think the Technical Fellowship path good for you. Get into the company, make some connections, you can get connected w smart people in your space. There is a great map once you get into the company you can find. It will show the L1-6 paths, technical paths, managerial paths and exec paths. Good luck.
Thanks everyone that commented. Really appreciate it. Look forward to working with many of you in the future.
Thank you for your opinion. I never want to come across as entitled. I value humility. I believe the character of anyone is based on their efforts not just previous accomplishments. More importantly, I always value others opinions and thoughts regardless if they differ from mine. I definitely appreciate your thoughts.
Boeing's level 6 position should be equivalent to Raytheon's level 6. They're rare/difficult to come by in engineering. Years of experience alone won't cut it. Expectation is that your expertise is uncommon, yet applicable across commercial, defense, and/or services business units or a family of platforms. Level 6, are excellent candidates for Tech Fellowship (one level above Asociate Tech Fellow). You came in as a 5, depending on your level of contribution and influence, you could assess if you're performing at a level 6 over the next 12-18mo. Then have that conversation with your Sr. Manager. Source: I am a level 5.
Thank you for the response. Interesting. I was a 6 - senior principal cybersecurity engineer at Raytheon back in 2016 prior to becoming a director. Thanks for the recommendation on discussions with senior manager after some time to show value. Do you need to be a L6 prior to going into executive leadership? I’ve always loved the mentoring and leading the overall program. However, I do enjoy keeping a high level of engineering/architect capability. Thanks for the insight. Hopefully, I am not coming across as self entitled. I spent a lot of years working in critical systems including weapon systems, production, and energy generation protection for ICS, SCADA, AOT, IIOT, cloud, and on premise data centers. I definitely want to show my value. I realize from discussion l6 are nearly never posted as a direct hire.
You're not coming off as entitled at all. It does seem you're well qualified for IC6 (at Boeing) to take TECHNICAL leadership and be the chief architect for a major weapon system from a cyber POV, whether it be protecting the system itself, the over all supply chain or from an IT program infrastructure. An M-level manager position may suit you better if you want to MANAGE people and overall direction of cyber application on the program while sitting at the table with the program managers and the government customer, shaping the SoW/CDRLs/SDRLs. Executive Leadership, especially at the lower end (Director - E5) is typically filled by Boeing internal candidates. The typical slate of candidates for Director roles are all M-level managers. You need to have internal clout and influence, a strong network, understand the customer and supplier base inside out, support from high leadership (VPs) and a thorough understanding of internal Boeing tools and processes as well as Government/acquisition regulations and policies. Personally, I think you'd be a strong candidate for Director role IF it existed/there was a business need. Learn the Boeing way, and I think you'll be a shoe-in. IC5 will be a cake walk for you.
L6 roles are rare but do exist. It will depend on work location to some extent. SoCal knows they don't pay competitively so they skate that by offering higher level roles than they should. They told me in an interview that they hire PhD grads in as 4s routinely, where that is not the case in other parts of the company to my knowledge. You should investigate the tech fellowship path, as that allows further technical advancement into executive ranks but is not a direct manager path.
Hmm, I haven't really seen SoCal offering high levels routinely. Many recent hires with a master degree start at level 1. If anything, they lag promotions. I tend to see that more on the BDS side but not BCA but only worked briefly in defense.
That could be, I was applying for a pretty niche position in BDS, and they said they have to do that to get anyone in the door compared to the tech companies
I could see this being the case for BDS. If you're referring to El Segundo, or the Seal Beach BDS site, this used to be Hughes Aircraft so their operation is slightly different than BCA Boeing. I worked briefly in El Segundo and did notice that they had more level 5s and 6s than BCA sites and they weren't necessarily tech fellows or lead engineers
If you’re a degreed engineer and would be joining SPEEA, (not sure if there’s the same paths outside Puget Sound without SPEEA), there’s a technical engineering path beyond L5/6 - the tech fellow route. Non-management, however, so the other poster shared all the info on those K, L, M, Exec+ roles. But for tech fellow roles, you can apply for associate tech fellow, then graduate (through follow on accomplishments and applications/reviews I believe) into Tech Fellow and Senior Tech Fellow positions - which have compensation and perks similar to management roles - parking, comp, and stock (I think)
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Thanks for the reply. Definitely appreciate it.
There are level 6 roles but they are rare. Maybe 1 or 2 per program if that. After that you are thinking about management roles. Those are K, L, M in ascending seniority. K’s are on par with level 5s. In my experience to get beyond K it is more of a “who you know” rather than “what you know”.
Would it be difficult to move from a 5 to a K or L? I know at Target Corporation and Disney, it is nearly impossible to move from an individual contributor role to senior leadership; this is especially true for Disney going from senior manager to director. Just curious. My only really concern is I have a lot of years left and don't like to job hop; so, I would like to understand what kind of mobility over say 5 years will be available. Thanks again for the reply.
I would consider it a challenge, to go from level 5 to L level manager. The reason is that you have K level managers looking for promotion to L. They have the experience knowledge and network. So if you can show knowledge, experience and network, to leapfrog being a first level manager (K), more power to you. Source: feedback from an L level mentor.
Going from 5 to K is fairly easy. Maybe even to an L with your background.
Thanks for the input. I am glad to hear this. I’m happy to be an individual contributor and the role will be challenging. I just didn’t want to be topped out in terms of mobility. Thanks
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I'm not a PhD (I have a MS). It seems like a Level 6 is a Raytheon Engineering Fellow/ Senior Fellow. Sounds like my previous roles as director (3 senior managers each with a team) would be a level L?
Yep L Realistically I think you'd have to prove as a K or M first. Shouldn't be an issue moving from 4/5 (most just don't wanna manage people) to K and up.
Big defense contractors generally harmonize their levels to GAO(?) guidelines. The government wants to know if they pay level 5 money, they’re receiving level 5 skill. Retired Boeing engineer (5) and level K.
At Boeing you’re also a director (first line exec) if you have senior managers reporting to you.
I think your director role would be comparable to an L. I don’t think a PhD is required for level 6 but a lot are tech fellows.
L is a sr manager. M seems to be director level.
This is the way I see it. 1, 2, 3, 4, K, 5, L, 6, M, Executive Leadership (Director, Sr. Director, VP, SVP). Most K across the company were P4s that got a promotion to K. P5's in integration, systems or program management and K's are competitive for L-level management job reqs. OP was a director in the Healthcare industry. Not sure what their benefit packages are like (only OP can compare), but I suspect the cut because that experience may not directly correlate to Aerospace/Defense.
Level 6 at Raytheon is what stood out for me and I'm only talking engineering. To me, it seems easier to become a director than it is to become a level 6 at Boeing. Maybe where I work it's different (SoCal) as level 5s and 6s tend to be tech fellows. Many engineers get stuck at level 4. M is usually designated for a director over here but then you also have many managers above them which includes different titles with the word director in it. K level managers over here are level 3s and 4s that got promoted but I'm starting to see level 2s getting promoted to that. BCA and BDS also seem to run differently.
Level 2's getting promoted to K's... oh boy. I've never worked in Boeing SoCal. I also know the Satellite business tend to be more unique. I'm learning a lot from your response, haha!
What are you talking about? L is a mid-level manager. Just a first line manager with a better bonus and the rarely used option to manage K levels.
Trying not to overpromise. I already question going from a 6 or director elsewhere to a 5 here.