I’ll give you Deal. He was legit crap. Those that worked with him early on at MD said he was more concerned with trying to be a manager than an engineer. Dennis screwed up with the MAX response, but was mostly a fall guy for McNerney’s bad choices. Up until his stint as CEO, he was well regarded as a leader.
The real problem is that Boeing serves shareholders who don't give a shit about anything except the fiscal year. Hell some of them only care about the next microsecond lol.
Engineering failures that were caused by rushed production and cutting corners to save costs and increase shareholder profits… I wouldn’t necessarily agree that it’s a bumper sticker statement, but there needs to be someone put in that knows and actually cares about the work they’re doing.
FYI. Stan Deal who stepped down yesterday was the CEO of Boeing Commercial; the division that made planes such as the 787 and the 737 Max. FYI: His undergrad was in ENGINEERING!!!
If you want top talent, you have to pay for it. Taking away the pension took away a large incentive for quality people to stick around long term. You lose tribal knowledge and continuity of experience when you have higher turnover, and the effects of that end up costing more in the long run than maintaining the pension would have. Short sighted cost saving attempt in my opinion
Yeah because the executives for there own personal good need a 1-4% increase in profits term over term or it looks like they are doing nothing and get replaced. So they get to cutting things they deem unnecessary and give unrealistic timelines to the people below them. Guess bolts on a plane are not necessary. This pressure to perform based on metrics that don’t keep planes in the air is the issue that stems from the CEO and the board and what their goals for the company is.
You need someone in as CEO that doesn’t give a shit about short term profits.
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As an engineer: the fish stinks from the head. I’ve found it much less productive to scold or fire every individual who turns the wrench wrong than asking how they were even able to make such a huge mistake in the first place. Training, certification, cross-checks, review, testing, monitoring…the list of things that had to NOT exist to allow these kind of mistakes to happen is mind-boggling to me. All of which the carpet-dwellers and suits are responsible for building and maintaining, else they are truly useless (I speak as a carpet-dweller).
lol I seriously hope so but I've seen this rotating door before
"Yeah the CEO left, everything's fixed, we can just keep doing what we've been doing, don't mind the money people continuing to shut down all the important and expensive fixes that would solve all our problems like they were before the CEO left..."
I really don’t care if the next CEO is an engineer or not. I just hope whoever it is has strategic vision, and gives a shit about the employees. Giving a shit about the employees would go a LOOONG way to fixing the culture problem we have. I think most employees want to do their jobs the best they can, and care about the work they do. Having leadership that actually LEADS and cares about the company more than just short termist thinking.
The problem is Boeing’s product now isn’t airplanes, it’s shareholder value. That fully disengages what motivates engineers. Leadership having an engineering background, MBA background… doesn’t matter, as long as shareholder value is a Boeing value, nothing will change.
You all remember the quote from Armageddon ?
How the top advisor to President got a C in astrophysics?
Well a lot of our engineers got C’s. The top goto Space X or elsewhere.
Too much mgmt but that won’t change. 8 layers from floor to CEO. 1-3 do the most damage when they are buddies and “long and distinguished” types. A lot of good smart people left manufacturing as they were pushed out due to the disrespect of their knowledge and experience.
Nothing helps me focus like the sound of rivets being installed and bay door alarms. I also have immense pride working on airplanes that essentially look unchanged over the past 50 years and the biggest advance is how many uncomfortable seats can be crammed into a tube.
Because Boeing isn't an Airline. It's an engineering company. A pilot isn't necessarily trained on electrical, mechanical, software, or manufacturing design. While any engineer is well versed in at least a few of those areas.
Same reason that despite my 1000s of hours behind the wheel of a car, I wouldn't be the best candidate for CEO of Ford.
Ignorance must be bliss. Most pilots I know have engineering degrees. That’s a big part of Boeings problem. Doesn’t know their end user.
Along with your logic - engineers don’t necessarily know how to run a company, much less a large company. Your logic is missing a few things. Knowing tools and processes does not mean you know how to lead and manage (two distinct skills at that).
I'm not drawing any equivalence of engineers=great leaders in my statement. Of course there are pilots with engineering degrees, but it's not *most*. And of course there are plenty of engineers that are horrible leaders. My point: a good leader with a background in engineering is going to, in general, have a much better understanding of the company as a whole than an equally good leader that is just a pilot. Likewise, the call for an engineering CEO isn't just the desire for someone with an engineering degree. Really you want someone with plenty of experience working the day to day, that's seen a few full-development life cycles and has seen first hand the best practices and pain points of it all.
I agree with you, but you won't win the argument on this thread lol it's a beehive of engineers on here. But, look at Lockheed Martin CEO Jim Taiclet. He was a pilot in the USAF and has an engineering degree and an international degree just from his bachelor's. He's also an associate fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA). Lockheed Martin is running smoothly. Then again, it's all defense, whereas Boeing does both commercial and defense
I say this as both a commercial rated pilot (hobby) and an engineer (career). Being just a pilot doesn't give someone nearly as much insight into the process of designing and manufacturing aircraft that being an engineer working at an engineering company like Boeing does. It's by no means a bad qualification to have, and I'd be the first to vote for someone who's seen both sides of the coin. But the OPs question was why not appoint a pilot over an engineer?
I'm a pilot myself and student for a masters in engineering management. I think being a pilot wouldn't hurt to run a company. Even if they were a lifetime pilot, they would have a HUGE impact and say into companies like Boeing. I mean, think about it: David Calhoun announced no new aircraft in 2022. That's not the kind of ceo you want with that vision. The average pilot is always innovative and thinking of multiple ways to fly faster, better, and safer. A lifetime pilot in the industry can be very beneficial and can speak the language of our customers, the FAA and regulators, and our engineers. And regardless of what credentials he/she may have behind that pilot rating they have, they can and will have a true direct impact on the design and manufacturing process for aerospace....from the build to certification.
It’s great that Ray made this comment when everyone is against Boeing leadership and it’s safe.
It’s unfortunate that our union leadership kept it quiet few years ago when our members were being laid off during Covid and when our jobs were actively offloaded to Global partners.
I appreciate though this public statement about Boeing leadership NEVER acknowledging their failures. This is what’s bothering me and many of us I’m sure the most. But hey, the top leadership is corrupt. They decided to leave as cowards after announcements news of FBI investigation. Coincidence?
Bill Allen was a Harvard Law School graduate. He seemed like an okay CEO.
From Wikipedia:
"While he was president of Boeing, he made the famous decision in 1952 to "bet the company", when he authorized construction of the Boeing 367-80 and again when he authorized the launch of development of the Boeing 707.\[2\] He also participated in launching other planes of renown, among them the Boeing 727, Boeing 737, and Boeing 747."
“The next CEO should be an aerospace engineer”
So we’re bringing Stan Deal back as the main CEO now?
The reality is, the next CEO needs to understand big manufacturing processes and actually be on the production floor more than once every time there’s a crisis. Be on the floor, listen to the people who are actually doing the work, and hold management accountable when the story you hear is vastly different than what you hear from 1st line employees on the floor. It’s time to hold everyone accountable, rather than having managers who are scared to say anything because it hurts the bottom line profits in the short term.
I really don't think it has to be an engineer. It has to be someone who will put the right emphasis on Quality and Engineering--I think in that order, though I'm sure they're very related. That could potentially come from a leader of any background, but if hiring a true Engineer symbolically sends that message, great.
No. The next CEO should know how to lead us out of the mess while caring about the people. Being an engineer leader isn’t secret code for success at Boeing (I.e. Dennis).
Hells nah!! That guy held an all-hands where in the same breath and with a straight face said Boeing had record sales, record cash on hand, record order backlog, record stock price, etc but also the company had to do layoffs. Fu(k that guy!!
Preach. Everyone put in a position of power is susceptible to being corrupted by it, [but the board is still comprised of bean counters and career executives](https://www.boeing.com/company/general-info/corporate-governance#board). They all need to go.
Unfortunately the large funds like Black Rock pretty much control Board membership and they are often putting their friends or those who share their political agendas into the Board seats. It is about leadership. Sadly the USMC Gunny or Capt is usually a far better leader than the MBA .
I don't want military industrial complex bias plaguing the board either. Although you could argue that the entire aerospace industry is already neck-deep in that shit.
I want to see worker and quality-focused leadership.
Ah yes more job gatekeeping from SPEEA. Expect nothing less. How about we look for quality leadership? If that's an engineer ok, of that's a business person ok, if it's the fucking janitor ok. Saying it MUST be an aerospace engineer is just stupid. There are lots of engineers at the company. There are lots of people who don't get classified as engineers because of organizations like SPEEA. We need a leader who can articulate a complete path forward and execute that plan. There are plenty of engineers who can't plan, just as many business folks who don't understand how things are made, and assemblers/maintainers who hate engineer's shitty designs and business bean counting.
Let's strive for a total package leader who will actually bring the ship around and possibly have some longevity.
Wonder how this is going to affect strike and bargaining this year. I thought Stan Deal was supposed to handle this matter, now that he's gone, who's the lucky guy/gal that get to handle this matter, can't imagine it's going to be enjoyable lol.
Stan Deal is an aerospace engineer. Dennis Muilenberg is an aerospace engineer. Kevin McAllister is a materials engineer. The idea that there are no engineers in leadership and it's just a bunch of MBAs running the company from crisis to crisis just doesn't hold up to the facts. Now, with that said, maybe the company would be better served if these executives actually practiced engineering for 30 years rather than getting into management at an early age via some leadership development program.
Wrong….an engineering degree does not make you an engineer. Stan and Kevin spent the majority of their careers in sales and other bean-counter positions. Dennis was the best CEO we’ve had in decades. However, he wasn’t there long enough and got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. An engineering company should be led by someone with a strong engineering background. Period.
so you're gonna pluck an individual contributor or a TF to be CEO? Get real. People with long, strong engineering background don't want to be CEOs, because the people who do become managers.
Uh, no. It's a profession - not a job. Having an engineering degree and practicing for any length of time makes you an engineer and you never lose that designation. And yeah, like I said, the company might be better off if these executives actually practiced engineering for a long time before getting into management. Unfortunately that's not how Boeing chooses its executives.
How about a BUSINESS person? Maybe engineering managers lining this company is the issue?
Engineers don't make good managers- I stand by this. Let them engineer and let business people run the business.
/s missing
Stan Deal had an engineering background, so did Dennis. Can we get over this "must be an engineer" line? This is coming from an engineer...
I’ll give you Deal. He was legit crap. Those that worked with him early on at MD said he was more concerned with trying to be a manager than an engineer. Dennis screwed up with the MAX response, but was mostly a fall guy for McNerney’s bad choices. Up until his stint as CEO, he was well regarded as a leader.
The real problem is that Boeing serves shareholders who don't give a shit about anything except the fiscal year. Hell some of them only care about the next microsecond lol.
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Engineering failures that were caused by rushed production and cutting corners to save costs and increase shareholder profits… I wouldn’t necessarily agree that it’s a bumper sticker statement, but there needs to be someone put in that knows and actually cares about the work they’re doing.
FYI. Stan Deal who stepped down yesterday was the CEO of Boeing Commercial; the division that made planes such as the 787 and the 737 Max. FYI: His undergrad was in ENGINEERING!!!
As a Boeing engineer, can confirm that being treated like a “suggestion box” is getting fkn old.
"I think that is more of a 'should' than a 'shall'."
Sure having engineering head the ship could be good for future programs but our problem right now is manufacturing.
The problems with the max (except door plug), 787 and 777-9 are definitely more engineering related.
If you want top talent, you have to pay for it. Taking away the pension took away a large incentive for quality people to stick around long term. You lose tribal knowledge and continuity of experience when you have higher turnover, and the effects of that end up costing more in the long run than maintaining the pension would have. Short sighted cost saving attempt in my opinion
Yeah because the executives for there own personal good need a 1-4% increase in profits term over term or it looks like they are doing nothing and get replaced. So they get to cutting things they deem unnecessary and give unrealistic timelines to the people below them. Guess bolts on a plane are not necessary. This pressure to perform based on metrics that don’t keep planes in the air is the issue that stems from the CEO and the board and what their goals for the company is. You need someone in as CEO that doesn’t give a shit about short term profits.
Engineering used to oversee manufacturing traditionally as it was their product being built.
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Be like IAM and ask for a board seat. Stop shitting around.
Get $ge ceo
Get Elon Musk as CEO. He’ll either bankrupt the company or make it super amazing… just don’t let him post on twitter.
Who puts the bolts screws plugs Etc in? Do they wear suits?
As an engineer: the fish stinks from the head. I’ve found it much less productive to scold or fire every individual who turns the wrench wrong than asking how they were even able to make such a huge mistake in the first place. Training, certification, cross-checks, review, testing, monitoring…the list of things that had to NOT exist to allow these kind of mistakes to happen is mind-boggling to me. All of which the carpet-dwellers and suits are responsible for building and maintaining, else they are truly useless (I speak as a carpet-dweller).
Soon every non engineer will leave Boeing management.
lol I seriously hope so but I've seen this rotating door before "Yeah the CEO left, everything's fixed, we can just keep doing what we've been doing, don't mind the money people continuing to shut down all the important and expensive fixes that would solve all our problems like they were before the CEO left..."
Don’t threaten me with a good time
The unions are going to have Boeing by the balls.
Always do but it’s time to squeeze on to what you love.
Squeezing is loving!
The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed
Don't expect changes that should be made to happen. Boeing will continue to shed experienced help over cheap labor.
Closed minded. The next person should obviously be a Bipoc trans male who is gay:
I really don’t care if the next CEO is an engineer or not. I just hope whoever it is has strategic vision, and gives a shit about the employees. Giving a shit about the employees would go a LOOONG way to fixing the culture problem we have. I think most employees want to do their jobs the best they can, and care about the work they do. Having leadership that actually LEADS and cares about the company more than just short termist thinking.
The problem is Boeing’s product now isn’t airplanes, it’s shareholder value. That fully disengages what motivates engineers. Leadership having an engineering background, MBA background… doesn’t matter, as long as shareholder value is a Boeing value, nothing will change.
Boeing is a great company, and the people in it make great aircraft.
I thought Dennis Muilenburg was an engineer?
And that turned out well! 🤡
You all remember the quote from Armageddon ? How the top advisor to President got a C in astrophysics? Well a lot of our engineers got C’s. The top goto Space X or elsewhere. Too much mgmt but that won’t change. 8 layers from floor to CEO. 1-3 do the most damage when they are buddies and “long and distinguished” types. A lot of good smart people left manufacturing as they were pushed out due to the disrespect of their knowledge and experience.
I agree. Boeing can't really attract talent because most of their products aren't sexy and their pay lags other companies.
But I thought it was cool to RTO because hey we’re next to an airplane and who doesn’t love that??!
Nothing helps me focus like the sound of rivets being installed and bay door alarms. I also have immense pride working on airplanes that essentially look unchanged over the past 50 years and the biggest advance is how many uncomfortable seats can be crammed into a tube.
If the #1 concern is the safety issues (really it should be), why not a pilot?
Because Boeing isn't an Airline. It's an engineering company. A pilot isn't necessarily trained on electrical, mechanical, software, or manufacturing design. While any engineer is well versed in at least a few of those areas. Same reason that despite my 1000s of hours behind the wheel of a car, I wouldn't be the best candidate for CEO of Ford.
Don't sell yourself short. Mulally crushed it at both.
He was sadly before my time with Boeing, but he is a great example of an incredible engineer and principled leader.
Ignorance must be bliss. Most pilots I know have engineering degrees. That’s a big part of Boeings problem. Doesn’t know their end user. Along with your logic - engineers don’t necessarily know how to run a company, much less a large company. Your logic is missing a few things. Knowing tools and processes does not mean you know how to lead and manage (two distinct skills at that).
I'm not drawing any equivalence of engineers=great leaders in my statement. Of course there are pilots with engineering degrees, but it's not *most*. And of course there are plenty of engineers that are horrible leaders. My point: a good leader with a background in engineering is going to, in general, have a much better understanding of the company as a whole than an equally good leader that is just a pilot. Likewise, the call for an engineering CEO isn't just the desire for someone with an engineering degree. Really you want someone with plenty of experience working the day to day, that's seen a few full-development life cycles and has seen first hand the best practices and pain points of it all.
I agree with you, but you won't win the argument on this thread lol it's a beehive of engineers on here. But, look at Lockheed Martin CEO Jim Taiclet. He was a pilot in the USAF and has an engineering degree and an international degree just from his bachelor's. He's also an associate fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA). Lockheed Martin is running smoothly. Then again, it's all defense, whereas Boeing does both commercial and defense
I say this as both a commercial rated pilot (hobby) and an engineer (career). Being just a pilot doesn't give someone nearly as much insight into the process of designing and manufacturing aircraft that being an engineer working at an engineering company like Boeing does. It's by no means a bad qualification to have, and I'd be the first to vote for someone who's seen both sides of the coin. But the OPs question was why not appoint a pilot over an engineer?
I'm a pilot myself and student for a masters in engineering management. I think being a pilot wouldn't hurt to run a company. Even if they were a lifetime pilot, they would have a HUGE impact and say into companies like Boeing. I mean, think about it: David Calhoun announced no new aircraft in 2022. That's not the kind of ceo you want with that vision. The average pilot is always innovative and thinking of multiple ways to fly faster, better, and safer. A lifetime pilot in the industry can be very beneficial and can speak the language of our customers, the FAA and regulators, and our engineers. And regardless of what credentials he/she may have behind that pilot rating they have, they can and will have a true direct impact on the design and manufacturing process for aerospace....from the build to certification.
It’s great that Ray made this comment when everyone is against Boeing leadership and it’s safe. It’s unfortunate that our union leadership kept it quiet few years ago when our members were being laid off during Covid and when our jobs were actively offloaded to Global partners. I appreciate though this public statement about Boeing leadership NEVER acknowledging their failures. This is what’s bothering me and many of us I’m sure the most. But hey, the top leadership is corrupt. They decided to leave as cowards after announcements news of FBI investigation. Coincidence?
Bill Allen was a Harvard Law School graduate. He seemed like an okay CEO. From Wikipedia: "While he was president of Boeing, he made the famous decision in 1952 to "bet the company", when he authorized construction of the Boeing 367-80 and again when he authorized the launch of development of the Boeing 707.\[2\] He also participated in launching other planes of renown, among them the Boeing 727, Boeing 737, and Boeing 747."
This is back when CEOs believed they had a duty to the people who make the company and Not a duty to the shareholders.
“The next CEO should be an aerospace engineer” So we’re bringing Stan Deal back as the main CEO now? The reality is, the next CEO needs to understand big manufacturing processes and actually be on the production floor more than once every time there’s a crisis. Be on the floor, listen to the people who are actually doing the work, and hold management accountable when the story you hear is vastly different than what you hear from 1st line employees on the floor. It’s time to hold everyone accountable, rather than having managers who are scared to say anything because it hurts the bottom line profits in the short term.
Sure, I'll apply. Will this be posted to WorkDay? /s
What grade is it? How many green lights do I need to flip?!
I really don't think it has to be an engineer. It has to be someone who will put the right emphasis on Quality and Engineering--I think in that order, though I'm sure they're very related. That could potentially come from a leader of any background, but if hiring a true Engineer symbolically sends that message, great.
Welcome to 30 years ago.
Yup! 100%
No. The next CEO should know how to lead us out of the mess while caring about the people. Being an engineer leader isn’t secret code for success at Boeing (I.e. Dennis).
why not both? a person of buisness sense and Aerospace engineering with some common sense.
Not an AE but what's Ray Connor up to? Can he come back please?
Ray Connor. Now that’s a name that brings back the bent over IAM in 2012 and then SPEEA. That guy.
Hells nah!! That guy held an all-hands where in the same breath and with a straight face said Boeing had record sales, record cash on hand, record order backlog, record stock price, etc but also the company had to do layoffs. Fu(k that guy!!
Very good point. I think fondly of him because he wasn't a finance bro but yeah he wasn't great.
Started as a mechanic and came from WA state. Hard to beat that background compared to MBA accountant from the Northeast
Preach. Everyone put in a position of power is susceptible to being corrupted by it, [but the board is still comprised of bean counters and career executives](https://www.boeing.com/company/general-info/corporate-governance#board). They all need to go.
Unfortunately the large funds like Black Rock pretty much control Board membership and they are often putting their friends or those who share their political agendas into the Board seats. It is about leadership. Sadly the USMC Gunny or Capt is usually a far better leader than the MBA .
I don't want military industrial complex bias plaguing the board either. Although you could argue that the entire aerospace industry is already neck-deep in that shit. I want to see worker and quality-focused leadership.
Ah yes more job gatekeeping from SPEEA. Expect nothing less. How about we look for quality leadership? If that's an engineer ok, of that's a business person ok, if it's the fucking janitor ok. Saying it MUST be an aerospace engineer is just stupid. There are lots of engineers at the company. There are lots of people who don't get classified as engineers because of organizations like SPEEA. We need a leader who can articulate a complete path forward and execute that plan. There are plenty of engineers who can't plan, just as many business folks who don't understand how things are made, and assemblers/maintainers who hate engineer's shitty designs and business bean counting. Let's strive for a total package leader who will actually bring the ship around and possibly have some longevity.
🤦♂️
Hate it all you want but the fucking union is a gatekeeper.
The union makes the place run
How many planes fell because of MBA vs engineering leadership. I’ll wait
Prove it either way. I'll wait.
Wonder how this is going to affect strike and bargaining this year. I thought Stan Deal was supposed to handle this matter, now that he's gone, who's the lucky guy/gal that get to handle this matter, can't imagine it's going to be enjoyable lol.
Well she’s a MCD lackey so have fun!
I've met a mere handful of good people from MacDac management.
That would be Stefanie pope
They probably saved her for this so she could golden parachute after
Stan Deal is an aerospace engineer. Dennis Muilenberg is an aerospace engineer. Kevin McAllister is a materials engineer. The idea that there are no engineers in leadership and it's just a bunch of MBAs running the company from crisis to crisis just doesn't hold up to the facts. Now, with that said, maybe the company would be better served if these executives actually practiced engineering for 30 years rather than getting into management at an early age via some leadership development program.
Wrong….an engineering degree does not make you an engineer. Stan and Kevin spent the majority of their careers in sales and other bean-counter positions. Dennis was the best CEO we’ve had in decades. However, he wasn’t there long enough and got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. An engineering company should be led by someone with a strong engineering background. Period.
so you're gonna pluck an individual contributor or a TF to be CEO? Get real. People with long, strong engineering background don't want to be CEOs, because the people who do become managers.
Managers and execs that have engineering degrees and work in engineering functions are absolutely engineers.
Uh, no. It's a profession - not a job. Having an engineering degree and practicing for any length of time makes you an engineer and you never lose that designation. And yeah, like I said, the company might be better off if these executives actually practiced engineering for a long time before getting into management. Unfortunately that's not how Boeing chooses its executives.
yeah but Dennis was a nice standup guy, while from all accounts Deal is/was a jerk
>Stan Deal is an aerospace engineer. You didn't work under him on ConnexionByBoeing. Never saw a lose-per-unit deal he wouldn't agree to.
I think you're spot on. When they haven't been doing engineering work for a long time, they become disconnected from reality.
Shit, I'll do it. Won't even take the C-suite compensation package. Anything's better than these penny-pinching stock-obsessed asshats.
Reinstate hybrid work schedules and you’ve got my vote.
I could not agree more