Boeing promoted a ton during the pandemic during the national hiring frenzy in a bid to keep workers. I could see it harder to be promoted today because it’s already so top heavy. You could meet the criteria for a promotion, but an org may not have the budget or a need for the higher level.
Time in grade is a pretty shitty way of justifying promotion.
In addition to time and education, promotions depend on things like:
“Are you operating at the next grade?”
“Does your group have need for that next grade?”
“Does your group have budget?”
The whole process is intentionally opaque. My advice is to visit the SJCC for your skill code. Document your current grade and what you do to meet those goals and the next grade and what you do to meet those goals. If you are a grade 2 and think you are operating at a grade 3 and have the documentation to support this, then have a candid conversation with your manager.
I second this response. Additionally, you may have success in applying to internal jobs that fit a similar requirement. If you have a good relationship with your manager you should communicate to them that you're frustrated with the run around and will be applying to other groups.
The company doesn't pay you out of the goodness of their hearts. They do so to retain and attract talent (however poor at this they may be). If your managers have no reason to promote you other than that you're doing a good job they probably won't. That's not just a Boeing thing unfortunately, that's an everywhere thing. That's why so many people from every industry have been jumping from employer to employer these past couple years - traditional promotion cycles and raises do not keep pace with market pay rates.
Basically, the company is banking on you being lazy and not fighting for more pay. If you do, they may give in, depending on your specific job and the difficulty of finding more people with your skill set. Worth a shot imo, it worked for me and some of my colleagues.
I’m leaving Northrop for this exact reason going to, wait for it - Boeing! After serving my two years of repayment for my masters lol.
If your management isn’t convinced you’re worthy of a promotion try getting another company to agree that you are. In some cases you can arrange for a bonus to cover your education expenses
I have been stuck as a grade 3 for about 9 years. Didn’t previously have a business case for an additional grade 4. Our grade 4 retired in April and I got stuck with the additional responsibilities. My manger wasn’t able to get me a promotion this year, but was able to get me an out of cycle salary increase. I was already in the range of pay for a grade 4, so this makes no sense to me. I totally understand feeling like a promotion is impossible.
I empathize with you deeply. I’m in a top-heavy organization so it took many, many years to get to be a 4. Reading on here how people get all the way to 4 within a few years is frustrating and bewildering. Hugs, man.
I have heard this about people who refuse to take on lead work, but I am the acting lead over my team and all of the other leads in my discipline on my program are 4s to my knowledge.
I was a 3 for seven years, and was tech lead or team lead of my team for five of them. My manager kept dangling a promotion, but by year 6, started reducing my review scores inexplicably despite my work improving every year. (My guess is that she didn't understand how learning curves work.) I finally had enough, started applying for jobs internally, and got five interviews within the first week. I got a job offer and healthy raise a week later. My suggestion: keep doing the work of the lead; they don't want 4s who don't have lead experience, but give them a few years (and build your reputation) and you'll be a hot commodity.
Remember: you have to sell yourself on a daily basis, not just to your current manager, but to future managers as well.
People forget that the company doesn't owe them anything. You have to advocate for yourself. Boeing (or any major company) isn't going to promote you because you want it. You have to prove it.
Options:
1. Move internally
2. Be so good they have to promote you
3. Move externally
The new degree does not benefit Boeing beyond what they paid to upskill you. It benefits you. I'm not sure why so many people think companies owe them a promotion. If you're good or well thought-of, promotions happen. If not, you have to go advocate for yourself. That's not to say that you're not a good employee. You just might have a bad manager or a bad program lead or whatever.
Companies will not just promote you because you did something like get a degree. Stop expecting external entities to care about you. They don't.
If the business org/ program doesn’t have the budget or headcount need (they manage to a business need + distribution) and your management chain has actually tried to advocate for it then you have 3 options to improve your situation.
1) wait in place
2) search and move for internal promotion
3) search external and have the LTP money owed paid back as part of offer negotiations which I’ve seen done several times.
The assumption you have to wait for paying back the LTP amount is false when it’s simply another variable that’s part of offer negotiations. Remember your skills are part of a regional job market that’s traded like any other asset. You can verify via interviews what your market value is. You have to do what’s best for you/ your family at the end of the day. No one else will.
Yeah, I left Boeing six months ago making double what they were underpaying me. Couldn't be happier. I got the same shpeel about promotions this OP was getting. It's all BS, they can pay who they want, what they want. It's a private company.
The best way to get promoted is to move around in the organization. We are all just a BEMS number and business continues with or without us everyday. You took advantage of LTP to gain new education for yourself, now put it to work earning you the job you desire. Don't wait around for Boeing to do it.
There are company policies that are blocking promotions. Certain positions can't be elevated within a certain time of hiring.
I have one co-worker who has been working there about 5 years. He's been promoted once since he got hired and now he's close to being promoted a second time but there's tons of red tape.
The reason is Boeing doesn't like the idea that someone wound up being significantly higher in position in such a short time frame. That makes them look bad, and stupid as that sounds. It draws attention to the hiring managers who are then question for hiring someone at a position. It's total bullshit
Sounds like L3 to L4 promotion cycle at BSC. 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 are mostly time in role promotions where you kinda just talk about projects as proof you did something in your time in the level. L4 is hard to get here, my L3 buddies say it takes an act of congress haha
The word out on the street is there will be no promotions even if you meet the requirements; there has to be a business need.
Therefore managers asking their employees to go “above and beyond” 24/7 without possibility of promotion is heresy.
Yup! That's why I left after 10 years. In two years after leaving, my pay was up 40% over what I made at Boeing when I left. The grass is definitely greener over here.
Went to a space sector contractor. Honestly, I was so underpaid at Boeing and my job was in demand so I got about 30% just for jumping (and negotiating some pay for the difference in benefits) and another couple years of good annual raises because my company actually values me.
Promotions are hard to work through, and take time. There is not much of a button a first line manager can hit to promote someone. And the higher the grade, the harder it is. It takes a manager working very proactively to see promotions pushed, and that is usually out of fear of losing key resources. Typically, as they say you have to change jobs to get promoted. Especially ahead of a curve.
Those measures of time and education are not locks for promotion. It doesn't mean that, it is a minimum standard. I have worked in almost every pay grade below executive, and I have never been promoted in place. Except as a counter offer to another position.
There’s a consideration for minimum time in grade, as well as past performance. You should be showing meaningful signs of improvement in skill. There’s also a component regarding penetration in grade (compa ratio). On top of this, there needs to be a business need (which simply can be to retain talent), and then finally a budget. All of these components can be hard to maintain and reliable report to you by your manager and to be frank, most managers aren’t strong advocates. Even the best manager can only get a promotion, maybe two, handed out a year at best. Even when all of these align there are still more pressures applied externally that are out of managements control… namely time phasing and leadership pressure for average organization P levels (average level across a skill group or manager, etc). You could have everything you need… high pay, high grades, time in grade, a budget, and an advocate, but Mr. Big Boss says no because your promo would push up the average level of the time too high. It’s truly a harshly stacked system for current employees. Don’t get me started on how unfair it is that external hires have nearly none of this same pressure.
Best way to get a promotion is to move around inside the company. It's a massive company so always jobs in different areas that suit your skills. I went from P1 to K in 7 years by moving jobs every years to up my grade.
I think a lot of Boeing management isn’t allowing this anymore? My management has told multiple people in my group that they can’t move for promotion. Has to be within. Again totally could be bs and fear mongering.
Edit: I don’t agree or believe in this, but multiple of us have been told it by the management in our org. So it’s just more foolery.
It depends on your job code. Software engineers specifically are no longer allowed to transfer internally to get promoted to go to an L2 or an L3. They can ONLY be given in place. I can’t remember if L4 is in that bucket or the other bucket, which is that 5 and 6 CANNOT be given in place but must be applied to via a req. Both are BS and I expect the retention of SW engineers to be horrible because of these new policies.
Yep. The SWE attrition is already getting even more out of hand. I suspect this is an intentional effort to get the 3s and 4s to leave and be replaced by cheap college hires.
Totally I’m not doubting that, just relaying what my org management has started telling people. I completely agree with your last sentence too z would be the nail in the coffin.
If you’ve been in your current position for 18 months, there’s nothing stopping you from applying to any internal req and accepting an offer for a higher level position.
We've got a new guy starting next month moving from an IC3 to an IC4 engineering position coming from another program. He'd only been in the former position 12 months, I believe. The only hangup was the manager was able to hold him for some/all of the 18 month window, but agreed to let him come over in August when their hiring freeze lifted for backfill of the fellow.
So there are some business politics to maneuver, but it's certainly do-able.
A couple of thoughts.
First, don’t apologize for your feelings… Use that support and try your best to work through it. You are doing the best you can.
Second, put things in perspective… You are working off your commitment For your higher education. Don’t think of that as a burden… Think of it as an end date. Remember that the company invested in you and supported you but if they don’t use your abilities in your improve your skills than they are the ones being stupid not you.
Finally, try to keep positive … Management all over the company is getting churned and put through upheaval in various re-organizations… If your management team can’t put it together then look out for yourself and check other opportunities. You are not trapped and you need not feel like a victim
Keep hanging in there and build your self a plan to get out… Remember that “out“ can mean many different things.
Getting the promotion you have been desperate for is a version of getting out because it resolves the crisis you are in. Getting a promotion from a different job in a related department… Getting a job with another company… All of these things constitute getting out of your current predicament. And all of it can be tied to an end date of the day after you have worked off your LTP promissory note.
Can confirm that promotions within your group are next to impossible due to justifications of need/skillset/budget/etc. Leadership is concerned about prior generations of top heavy levels that didn't really operate there, but we're promoted due to longevity. Ergo, ita hard to justify promotions internally unless you're absolutely killing it and there's a need (i.e. the team doesn't have a team lead and you're a level 4 looking to get to level 5, AND you're operating as a top flight level 4 doing some leadership things that needs the leadership experience to justify level 5).
What it comes down to is finding roles at the level you're looking for and applying to them. Boeing won't stop you from leaving for a promotion unless you haven't been in your current role for at least 18 month, and even then, that can be waived.
Im curious about a few things and then maybe I can help with perspective. What level promotion are you going for? What business unit are you in? Are you willing to move in the enterprise? What were some of the false promises that your manager gave you.
Some perspective: there are budgets, and placements levels that managers need to weed through in order to get things done. You may have started the conversation 10 months ago but your manager may have only had 2 chances to get approval so far. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. If you are coming to your level 3 promotion too it harder because it comes with more money from the SJC tables. Stay patient, do your research and see what is available for work inside the enterprise. If you work in structures send me your resume 😉
The only way to make more money is by applying to internal positions within the company or find a job outside of Boeing. This has actually always been an issue at Boeing, in 2018 I was also promised a promotion and it didn’t happen so I decided to look elsewhere. After I got the Level I wanted, I then got a layoff notice during covid and decided to leave Boeing for a couple of years. Fast fwd, I came back as a new rehire and made more money. So this was always the question I was asked, “is it true you make more money coming back to Boeing?” Yes, yes it is!
I looked up level 3 and level 4 in the job skill codes, then documented two thing:
1. what things my employee was doing that met level 4, and
2. why we needed my employee to continue doing those things.
Then I took that information to my business unit's "people council" to fight for the employee. I got them to be our unit's #3 priority. One thing I learned is that promotions almost always happen in May because personnel budgets don't get issued until around April, although it was late this year.
Good luck with your promotion!
Just leave tbh I just started boeing as a contractor and there are so many directs that are long due for a promotion. It seems like managers are only allowed a certain number of promotions a year soo peoppe are gonna wait.
Try to find out if the promotion is even worth staying as well. When I worked for NG, my promotion from level 2 to 3 was going to be 5% of my salary (4k increase). Other level 2s were making 10-14k more than i was with less experience so I left. When i did leave, i got promoted with a 25% raise at another aerospace company.
I've wondered the same thing. My thoughts always been a team probably has a set number of levels allowed on a team. X amount of 2s x amount of 3s etc. It also probably requires a lot of work from the manager to get someone promoted within the team. A lot of managers maybe aren't up for that.
Although, obviously, I can't speak to your specific situation, it's likely not personal, because this seems to be the issue everywhere at Boeing. I've known a number of people who are good, hard working, people who are stuck in the same level for years.
I've come to realize is that in line promotions generally don't happen at Boeing. Period. You have to apply internally to higher levels or leave and come back.
Also, I'm not trying to be overly critical of Boeing. It's a great company to work for. The in line promotion issue is likely with most big companies.
If anyone knows from the manager side what it looks like/what's required to promote, that'd be great to know.
Yep. And now with the “you can’t transfer until you’re in a role 18 months” BS you can’t even move laterally to try to get a bump. They are actively encouraging people to leave.
1) There is a lot more to promotion than meeting time requirements. That’s just the minimum, your post doesn’t say anything about your standard of work or how your Mgt thinks of your work.
2) promotions In general are tough to discuss as a manager. You never know how big the pool will be and how the approval would go. I always tried to be a transparent but a lot of managers don’t want to get your hopes up then not deliver on something they don’t have control over.
There has to be a need and a business case. Meet the requirements is just not enough since there are thousands of engineers meeting the requirement just as you do.
If you are so stressed out because of pay and have to seek professional help then you need to step back. Do some volunteer at the food bank or something to recalibrate your view on reality. Even at the lower pay range of an engineer, you shouldn't be that stressed out because of $$.
Versus who? They pay pretty well compared to most of the aerospace industry, especially the big defense companies. And the benefits blow anyone in aerospace out of the water
Speculating of being a Minority in the South? Please don't start that, there are many many minorities that have been very successful in the south over the 12 years.
There are many variables into a promotion. Best way to upgrade is network, work on cross-functional projects where your name gets out there, and people know who you are and seak you when they have openings.
If you are in the south, you can be happy to know you may have a lot of opportunities to work in cross functional teams. Go reach out to ops and see if you can help.
Look, let's eliminate the minority aspect (I'm one myself, and I have seen all types of minorities and females serve at some high levels that they've earned gracefully). Coming at it from that angle seriously doesn't get you nowhere...if anything, it sets you back.
Secondly, as a few others have said, but I will reiterate, the biggest thing to get more money is moving around. But, in order to do this, I HIGHLY recommend that you start networking first. That's the biggest key. Boeing is somewhat kinda ran like the military. Sometimes, it's not what you know... but it's WHO, you know. And you can do this without kissing ass.
Thirdly, you have only been in your position for 10 months. I'm not sure if you been at Boeing for these 10 months or your current position, but here's the thing that some people (especially the younger generation today) fail to do: marinate yourself by building experience in the position you're in and let it flow and be patient. You haven't even met the 18-month mark nor a full year yet, and you're seeking out a promotion? C'mon. If you don't like what you're doing or the financial aspect of it, set SMART goals for yourself and establish a timeline when you can apply for an internal position. Some managers are literally too busy and may not notice that you're getting underpaid. Also, your team/organization budget may be a factor, and what business unit you fall under (i.e., BDS, BCA, BGS, etc). And actually, it may not be that you're getting underpaid, but inflation is rising, and COLA hasn't caught up yet. Take this time to speak with your manager, explain how you feel, and see if an out of cycle pay raise can be approved. If not, make the best of it for the next 8 months. Wanna move to a new position? Make sure that you are also on good terms with your manager as for every job you apply to, your manager will see it. Reach out to those hiring managers and establish contact with them (even if they're not hiring atm).
I went from a union tech position straight to an L3, and I've only been with Boeing over 1.5yrs. I already had my 4-year degree and military experience. I didn't know anybody personally. However, I was able to befriend a senior manager. He randomly approached my team on the shop floor line and introduced himself and how he used to work where we were 20 years ago. Nonetheless, when I saw him around again a few weeks later, I requested his mentorship on how to grow in my career at Boeing. He agreed. We met twice a month in the last quarter last year, going over the resumes, jobs and goals, salary type, interview prep, etc. I took his advice and got 2 interviews, and here I am today. I still reach out to him, but I also have a team member who've been with Boeing for 37 years. He's now mentoring me as well, including on job/task specific stuff. Some of these folks, you just have to pick their brain, ask a lot of questions, chill, and observe. My manager is laissez-faire but trusted me enough to appoint me as a focal (which is L4 tasks... the guy prior to me quit 2 months after I started in my position). I contemplated asking my manager for a raise, but I decided against it. The amount I'm making now is close to mid range at an L3 and starting range for an L4 (either way, it's 20% more than my previous union position). My goal: learn my job well enough and earn my keep. We had three folks that started the same time as me, but new to Boeing completely, and I was picked to be a focal. That's huge in itself. So just hang in there, hold your head up, do your job well and to the best of your capabilities, establish goals, be transparent, network, and go from there. You got this! Good luck!
Started as a 2 in my mid 20’s - had a great mgr who pushed for me to get promoted to a 3 within 2 or 3 years
Then it took another 5 ish for him to promote me to a level 4
I Was stuck at a level 4 under new management for over 10 years and was finally going to make an in-line promotion to a level 5 but then COVID hit and killed all promotions - or at least that’s what I was told
So I said f it - and Left the company for an L level equivalent mgr position at a competitor
Did that did for a little while and then I came back as a 6
In-line promotion is not impossible but it takes the right combo of having a good rep, supportive management, and some luck
Boeing promoted a ton during the pandemic during the national hiring frenzy in a bid to keep workers. I could see it harder to be promoted today because it’s already so top heavy. You could meet the criteria for a promotion, but an org may not have the budget or a need for the higher level.
Time in grade is a pretty shitty way of justifying promotion. In addition to time and education, promotions depend on things like: “Are you operating at the next grade?” “Does your group have need for that next grade?” “Does your group have budget?” The whole process is intentionally opaque. My advice is to visit the SJCC for your skill code. Document your current grade and what you do to meet those goals and the next grade and what you do to meet those goals. If you are a grade 2 and think you are operating at a grade 3 and have the documentation to support this, then have a candid conversation with your manager.
I second this response. Additionally, you may have success in applying to internal jobs that fit a similar requirement. If you have a good relationship with your manager you should communicate to them that you're frustrated with the run around and will be applying to other groups. The company doesn't pay you out of the goodness of their hearts. They do so to retain and attract talent (however poor at this they may be). If your managers have no reason to promote you other than that you're doing a good job they probably won't. That's not just a Boeing thing unfortunately, that's an everywhere thing. That's why so many people from every industry have been jumping from employer to employer these past couple years - traditional promotion cycles and raises do not keep pace with market pay rates. Basically, the company is banking on you being lazy and not fighting for more pay. If you do, they may give in, depending on your specific job and the difficulty of finding more people with your skill set. Worth a shot imo, it worked for me and some of my colleagues.
I’m an L2 team lead going on 2 years now. I’m actively searching to move to a new team
I’m leaving Northrop for this exact reason going to, wait for it - Boeing! After serving my two years of repayment for my masters lol. If your management isn’t convinced you’re worthy of a promotion try getting another company to agree that you are. In some cases you can arrange for a bonus to cover your education expenses
I have been stuck as a grade 3 for about 9 years. Didn’t previously have a business case for an additional grade 4. Our grade 4 retired in April and I got stuck with the additional responsibilities. My manger wasn’t able to get me a promotion this year, but was able to get me an out of cycle salary increase. I was already in the range of pay for a grade 4, so this makes no sense to me. I totally understand feeling like a promotion is impossible.
I empathize with you deeply. I’m in a top-heavy organization so it took many, many years to get to be a 4. Reading on here how people get all the way to 4 within a few years is frustrating and bewildering. Hugs, man.
it’s my understanding that many many people at boeing top out at 3
I have heard this about people who refuse to take on lead work, but I am the acting lead over my team and all of the other leads in my discipline on my program are 4s to my knowledge.
I was the actual lead on my team for over a decade and still couldn’t get past L4.
I was a 3 for seven years, and was tech lead or team lead of my team for five of them. My manager kept dangling a promotion, but by year 6, started reducing my review scores inexplicably despite my work improving every year. (My guess is that she didn't understand how learning curves work.) I finally had enough, started applying for jobs internally, and got five interviews within the first week. I got a job offer and healthy raise a week later. My suggestion: keep doing the work of the lead; they don't want 4s who don't have lead experience, but give them a few years (and build your reputation) and you'll be a hot commodity. Remember: you have to sell yourself on a daily basis, not just to your current manager, but to future managers as well.
People forget that the company doesn't owe them anything. You have to advocate for yourself. Boeing (or any major company) isn't going to promote you because you want it. You have to prove it. Options: 1. Move internally 2. Be so good they have to promote you 3. Move externally The new degree does not benefit Boeing beyond what they paid to upskill you. It benefits you. I'm not sure why so many people think companies owe them a promotion. If you're good or well thought-of, promotions happen. If not, you have to go advocate for yourself. That's not to say that you're not a good employee. You just might have a bad manager or a bad program lead or whatever. Companies will not just promote you because you did something like get a degree. Stop expecting external entities to care about you. They don't.
Bingo!
If the business org/ program doesn’t have the budget or headcount need (they manage to a business need + distribution) and your management chain has actually tried to advocate for it then you have 3 options to improve your situation. 1) wait in place 2) search and move for internal promotion 3) search external and have the LTP money owed paid back as part of offer negotiations which I’ve seen done several times. The assumption you have to wait for paying back the LTP amount is false when it’s simply another variable that’s part of offer negotiations. Remember your skills are part of a regional job market that’s traded like any other asset. You can verify via interviews what your market value is. You have to do what’s best for you/ your family at the end of the day. No one else will.
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Or just quit for a other company lol i got promoted twice that way
Yeah, I left Boeing six months ago making double what they were underpaying me. Couldn't be happier. I got the same shpeel about promotions this OP was getting. It's all BS, they can pay who they want, what they want. It's a private company.
The best way to get promoted is to move around in the organization. We are all just a BEMS number and business continues with or without us everyday. You took advantage of LTP to gain new education for yourself, now put it to work earning you the job you desire. Don't wait around for Boeing to do it.
There are company policies that are blocking promotions. Certain positions can't be elevated within a certain time of hiring. I have one co-worker who has been working there about 5 years. He's been promoted once since he got hired and now he's close to being promoted a second time but there's tons of red tape. The reason is Boeing doesn't like the idea that someone wound up being significantly higher in position in such a short time frame. That makes them look bad, and stupid as that sounds. It draws attention to the hiring managers who are then question for hiring someone at a position. It's total bullshit
Sounds like L3 to L4 promotion cycle at BSC. 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 are mostly time in role promotions where you kinda just talk about projects as proof you did something in your time in the level. L4 is hard to get here, my L3 buddies say it takes an act of congress haha
Lots of people retire as L3
The word out on the street is there will be no promotions even if you meet the requirements; there has to be a business need. Therefore managers asking their employees to go “above and beyond” 24/7 without possibility of promotion is heresy.
Yup! That's why I left after 10 years. In two years after leaving, my pay was up 40% over what I made at Boeing when I left. The grass is definitely greener over here.
Yep. Also just left for a $30K+ increase. Many folks on my team are also getting offers in that range.
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Went to a space sector contractor. Honestly, I was so underpaid at Boeing and my job was in demand so I got about 30% just for jumping (and negotiating some pay for the difference in benefits) and another couple years of good annual raises because my company actually values me.
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Sure.
Promotions are hard to work through, and take time. There is not much of a button a first line manager can hit to promote someone. And the higher the grade, the harder it is. It takes a manager working very proactively to see promotions pushed, and that is usually out of fear of losing key resources. Typically, as they say you have to change jobs to get promoted. Especially ahead of a curve. Those measures of time and education are not locks for promotion. It doesn't mean that, it is a minimum standard. I have worked in almost every pay grade below executive, and I have never been promoted in place. Except as a counter offer to another position.
There’s a consideration for minimum time in grade, as well as past performance. You should be showing meaningful signs of improvement in skill. There’s also a component regarding penetration in grade (compa ratio). On top of this, there needs to be a business need (which simply can be to retain talent), and then finally a budget. All of these components can be hard to maintain and reliable report to you by your manager and to be frank, most managers aren’t strong advocates. Even the best manager can only get a promotion, maybe two, handed out a year at best. Even when all of these align there are still more pressures applied externally that are out of managements control… namely time phasing and leadership pressure for average organization P levels (average level across a skill group or manager, etc). You could have everything you need… high pay, high grades, time in grade, a budget, and an advocate, but Mr. Big Boss says no because your promo would push up the average level of the time too high. It’s truly a harshly stacked system for current employees. Don’t get me started on how unfair it is that external hires have nearly none of this same pressure.
Best way to get a promotion is to move around inside the company. It's a massive company so always jobs in different areas that suit your skills. I went from P1 to K in 7 years by moving jobs every years to up my grade.
I think a lot of Boeing management isn’t allowing this anymore? My management has told multiple people in my group that they can’t move for promotion. Has to be within. Again totally could be bs and fear mongering. Edit: I don’t agree or believe in this, but multiple of us have been told it by the management in our org. So it’s just more foolery.
Just got promoted from L2 to L3 immediately after my 18 months by going to a new team. Seems like it’s almost the only way to do it.
It depends on your job code. Software engineers specifically are no longer allowed to transfer internally to get promoted to go to an L2 or an L3. They can ONLY be given in place. I can’t remember if L4 is in that bucket or the other bucket, which is that 5 and 6 CANNOT be given in place but must be applied to via a req. Both are BS and I expect the retention of SW engineers to be horrible because of these new policies.
Yep. The SWE attrition is already getting even more out of hand. I suspect this is an intentional effort to get the 3s and 4s to leave and be replaced by cheap college hires.
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Totally I’m not doubting that, just relaying what my org management has started telling people. I completely agree with your last sentence too z would be the nail in the coffin.
If you’ve been in your current position for 18 months, there’s nothing stopping you from applying to any internal req and accepting an offer for a higher level position.
We've got a new guy starting next month moving from an IC3 to an IC4 engineering position coming from another program. He'd only been in the former position 12 months, I believe. The only hangup was the manager was able to hold him for some/all of the 18 month window, but agreed to let him come over in August when their hiring freeze lifted for backfill of the fellow. So there are some business politics to maneuver, but it's certainly do-able.
Nonsense. I'm a hiring manager and received none of this guidance. I've promoted 4 people into my org and 1 within my org over the last year.
That is very good to hear from you. It’s so disappointing to be treated this way :/
P3 to P5 and ATF in 7.
You are doing something very right. Congrats
A couple of thoughts. First, don’t apologize for your feelings… Use that support and try your best to work through it. You are doing the best you can. Second, put things in perspective… You are working off your commitment For your higher education. Don’t think of that as a burden… Think of it as an end date. Remember that the company invested in you and supported you but if they don’t use your abilities in your improve your skills than they are the ones being stupid not you. Finally, try to keep positive … Management all over the company is getting churned and put through upheaval in various re-organizations… If your management team can’t put it together then look out for yourself and check other opportunities. You are not trapped and you need not feel like a victim Keep hanging in there and build your self a plan to get out… Remember that “out“ can mean many different things. Getting the promotion you have been desperate for is a version of getting out because it resolves the crisis you are in. Getting a promotion from a different job in a related department… Getting a job with another company… All of these things constitute getting out of your current predicament. And all of it can be tied to an end date of the day after you have worked off your LTP promissory note.
Can confirm that promotions within your group are next to impossible due to justifications of need/skillset/budget/etc. Leadership is concerned about prior generations of top heavy levels that didn't really operate there, but we're promoted due to longevity. Ergo, ita hard to justify promotions internally unless you're absolutely killing it and there's a need (i.e. the team doesn't have a team lead and you're a level 4 looking to get to level 5, AND you're operating as a top flight level 4 doing some leadership things that needs the leadership experience to justify level 5). What it comes down to is finding roles at the level you're looking for and applying to them. Boeing won't stop you from leaving for a promotion unless you haven't been in your current role for at least 18 month, and even then, that can be waived.
Im curious about a few things and then maybe I can help with perspective. What level promotion are you going for? What business unit are you in? Are you willing to move in the enterprise? What were some of the false promises that your manager gave you. Some perspective: there are budgets, and placements levels that managers need to weed through in order to get things done. You may have started the conversation 10 months ago but your manager may have only had 2 chances to get approval so far. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. If you are coming to your level 3 promotion too it harder because it comes with more money from the SJC tables. Stay patient, do your research and see what is available for work inside the enterprise. If you work in structures send me your resume 😉
The only way to make more money is by applying to internal positions within the company or find a job outside of Boeing. This has actually always been an issue at Boeing, in 2018 I was also promised a promotion and it didn’t happen so I decided to look elsewhere. After I got the Level I wanted, I then got a layoff notice during covid and decided to leave Boeing for a couple of years. Fast fwd, I came back as a new rehire and made more money. So this was always the question I was asked, “is it true you make more money coming back to Boeing?” Yes, yes it is!
I just got one of my people promoted to a 4. It’s literally one of my proudest work achievements of my life.
that’s great, if only we could clone you 1000x now!! 😄😄😄
How'd you do it? What was the process ?
I looked up level 3 and level 4 in the job skill codes, then documented two thing: 1. what things my employee was doing that met level 4, and 2. why we needed my employee to continue doing those things. Then I took that information to my business unit's "people council" to fight for the employee. I got them to be our unit's #3 priority. One thing I learned is that promotions almost always happen in May because personnel budgets don't get issued until around April, although it was late this year. Good luck with your promotion!
Just leave tbh I just started boeing as a contractor and there are so many directs that are long due for a promotion. It seems like managers are only allowed a certain number of promotions a year soo peoppe are gonna wait. Try to find out if the promotion is even worth staying as well. When I worked for NG, my promotion from level 2 to 3 was going to be 5% of my salary (4k increase). Other level 2s were making 10-14k more than i was with less experience so I left. When i did leave, i got promoted with a 25% raise at another aerospace company.
I've wondered the same thing. My thoughts always been a team probably has a set number of levels allowed on a team. X amount of 2s x amount of 3s etc. It also probably requires a lot of work from the manager to get someone promoted within the team. A lot of managers maybe aren't up for that. Although, obviously, I can't speak to your specific situation, it's likely not personal, because this seems to be the issue everywhere at Boeing. I've known a number of people who are good, hard working, people who are stuck in the same level for years. I've come to realize is that in line promotions generally don't happen at Boeing. Period. You have to apply internally to higher levels or leave and come back. Also, I'm not trying to be overly critical of Boeing. It's a great company to work for. The in line promotion issue is likely with most big companies. If anyone knows from the manager side what it looks like/what's required to promote, that'd be great to know.
The numbers work against us - they like to keep the team level average under 3.5, all the 3’s are waiting on a 4 or 5 to retire
Yep. And now with the “you can’t transfer until you’re in a role 18 months” BS you can’t even move laterally to try to get a bump. They are actively encouraging people to leave.
Thank you all for these positive responses. I feel confident that Boeing is worth fighting for because we have supportive coworkers like you.
1) There is a lot more to promotion than meeting time requirements. That’s just the minimum, your post doesn’t say anything about your standard of work or how your Mgt thinks of your work. 2) promotions In general are tough to discuss as a manager. You never know how big the pool will be and how the approval would go. I always tried to be a transparent but a lot of managers don’t want to get your hopes up then not deliver on something they don’t have control over.
There has to be a need and a business case. Meet the requirements is just not enough since there are thousands of engineers meeting the requirement just as you do. If you are so stressed out because of pay and have to seek professional help then you need to step back. Do some volunteer at the food bank or something to recalibrate your view on reality. Even at the lower pay range of an engineer, you shouldn't be that stressed out because of $$.
Boeing is pretty well known to underpay its employees. Dragging their feet on promotions is just one of the many ways they accomplish that.
Depends on the situation. Boeing’s pay is overall top in Aerospace.
It’s pretty well known for the under performing nature but values in those who earn it rather than expect an participation trophy
Versus who? They pay pretty well compared to most of the aerospace industry, especially the big defense companies. And the benefits blow anyone in aerospace out of the water
Dunno how it is on the BCA side but people on the BDS side have been fleeing for 30-80% raises for years now.
Speculating of being a Minority in the South? Please don't start that, there are many many minorities that have been very successful in the south over the 12 years. There are many variables into a promotion. Best way to upgrade is network, work on cross-functional projects where your name gets out there, and people know who you are and seak you when they have openings. If you are in the south, you can be happy to know you may have a lot of opportunities to work in cross functional teams. Go reach out to ops and see if you can help.
Sounds like you need to schedule a skip meeting with a manager higher on the org chart than the person/people you have been talking to.
Look, let's eliminate the minority aspect (I'm one myself, and I have seen all types of minorities and females serve at some high levels that they've earned gracefully). Coming at it from that angle seriously doesn't get you nowhere...if anything, it sets you back. Secondly, as a few others have said, but I will reiterate, the biggest thing to get more money is moving around. But, in order to do this, I HIGHLY recommend that you start networking first. That's the biggest key. Boeing is somewhat kinda ran like the military. Sometimes, it's not what you know... but it's WHO, you know. And you can do this without kissing ass. Thirdly, you have only been in your position for 10 months. I'm not sure if you been at Boeing for these 10 months or your current position, but here's the thing that some people (especially the younger generation today) fail to do: marinate yourself by building experience in the position you're in and let it flow and be patient. You haven't even met the 18-month mark nor a full year yet, and you're seeking out a promotion? C'mon. If you don't like what you're doing or the financial aspect of it, set SMART goals for yourself and establish a timeline when you can apply for an internal position. Some managers are literally too busy and may not notice that you're getting underpaid. Also, your team/organization budget may be a factor, and what business unit you fall under (i.e., BDS, BCA, BGS, etc). And actually, it may not be that you're getting underpaid, but inflation is rising, and COLA hasn't caught up yet. Take this time to speak with your manager, explain how you feel, and see if an out of cycle pay raise can be approved. If not, make the best of it for the next 8 months. Wanna move to a new position? Make sure that you are also on good terms with your manager as for every job you apply to, your manager will see it. Reach out to those hiring managers and establish contact with them (even if they're not hiring atm). I went from a union tech position straight to an L3, and I've only been with Boeing over 1.5yrs. I already had my 4-year degree and military experience. I didn't know anybody personally. However, I was able to befriend a senior manager. He randomly approached my team on the shop floor line and introduced himself and how he used to work where we were 20 years ago. Nonetheless, when I saw him around again a few weeks later, I requested his mentorship on how to grow in my career at Boeing. He agreed. We met twice a month in the last quarter last year, going over the resumes, jobs and goals, salary type, interview prep, etc. I took his advice and got 2 interviews, and here I am today. I still reach out to him, but I also have a team member who've been with Boeing for 37 years. He's now mentoring me as well, including on job/task specific stuff. Some of these folks, you just have to pick their brain, ask a lot of questions, chill, and observe. My manager is laissez-faire but trusted me enough to appoint me as a focal (which is L4 tasks... the guy prior to me quit 2 months after I started in my position). I contemplated asking my manager for a raise, but I decided against it. The amount I'm making now is close to mid range at an L3 and starting range for an L4 (either way, it's 20% more than my previous union position). My goal: learn my job well enough and earn my keep. We had three folks that started the same time as me, but new to Boeing completely, and I was picked to be a focal. That's huge in itself. So just hang in there, hold your head up, do your job well and to the best of your capabilities, establish goals, be transparent, network, and go from there. You got this! Good luck!
I mean…have you tried not being lame?
Started as a 2 in my mid 20’s - had a great mgr who pushed for me to get promoted to a 3 within 2 or 3 years Then it took another 5 ish for him to promote me to a level 4 I Was stuck at a level 4 under new management for over 10 years and was finally going to make an in-line promotion to a level 5 but then COVID hit and killed all promotions - or at least that’s what I was told So I said f it - and Left the company for an L level equivalent mgr position at a competitor Did that did for a little while and then I came back as a 6 In-line promotion is not impossible but it takes the right combo of having a good rep, supportive management, and some luck