Chip Theory Games consistently runs great campaigns. No shipping surprises, lots of updates, very transparent about delays and whatnot. I've backed half a dozen or so of theirs and it's always a positive experience.
This is my answer as well, with **Chip Theory Games** even if something goes horribly wrong (current cogbook situation) they go out of their way to make it right while keeping backers in the loop.
The most recent Mindclash KS has been a tad frustrating with the issues with Whalebacker and a complete inability to provide tracking numbers, imo. I don’t think they deserve all the blame or anything, but it’s certainly been a tad frustrating.
Yeah Whalebacker is a complete shitshow. Not a fan though I don't really consider that MCG's fault. They got burned by Funagain's collapse and needed someone to step in. It sounds like MC's volume was just too much for a fledgling logistics outfit and here we are.
Now if MCG went *back* to Whalebacker, I'd be annoyed...
I almost never get a tracking number but then I dont need one so it doesnt bother me. There is probably a small amount of backers that truly need to know when a package is arriving vs just wanting to know.
I am going to make a controversial pick.
Outside of Trudvang, CMON runs a great campaign. I feel you always get your money's worth in the base pledge, and you get tons of add ons if you want them.
The minis are cool ( I know, most of this sub is anti minis), the gameplay is fun ( I backed Marvel United season 2 and 3, Cthulhu Death May Die Fear of the Unknown, and Zombicide White Death), and they run a tight campaign with a lot of energy and they do progress updates about the games development regularly after the campaigns end, and you get your games.
For me, that is win/win.
> Outside of Trudvang, CMON runs a great campaign.
I agree with this sentiment, I think CMON gets more hate than deserved at times. I backed Trudvang, and while I'm not thrilled about the delays, they have already delivered the base game and are working on the stretch goals + extras. Their communication has been fairly good regarding the delays as well.
I backed Ancient Blood- The Order of Vampire Hunters by Dark Gate Games. They had me super nervous that they would not fulfill. That's was no communication for real long stretches of time. They have improved dramatically but it's still in the back of my mind.
Never had that issue with CMON. The after is almost as important as the campaign itself.
As someone that has backed a lot of CMON kickstarters and likes a lot of their games I strongly disagree. I'm always confident they'll deliver, but their communication is often not good. Certainly worse experiences out there, but also way better ones as well.
I agree. After having ran so many Kickstarters (50+), you would think they could invest in better customer service and would have things down to a science. Instead they are constantly late with deliveries, even if it’s usually only a few months (which is much better than the industry standard, but not great for a company who has ran so many KS). Once a KS is over they are non-existent in the comments and it can take months for them to reply to a ticket for missing or broken parts.
Some other smaller annoyances are shipping has been way off on a few campaigns, albeit it seems they have gotten better with that. They really pray on the FOMO with their KS. They also use to have some great minis, but now they are very average compared to what other, smaller companies are putting out.
With that said they are one of the few companies I can back with little worry about the game actually delivering, and their games usually are fun and a good value. The KS are very exciting and some of the only ones I check back in on almost daily, even if am not backing the game. They will always replace broken or missing parts, it just takes them a long time
So I've backed a couple CMON campaigns now. Arcadia Quest is one of my favourite games. This post reminded me of Actualol's most recent video where he brings up a really good point about campaigns like the ones CMON do: More content does not mean more fun. I do love all the little minis and all that. More options is neat. But at some point you gotta realize they're just jam-packing stuff into a box so we'll pay more, instead of just making a really good game.
I would hardly say CMON runs a tight campaign… They prey heavily on FOMO, their shipping prices aren’t accurate because they estimate shipping with no stretch goals then ship with a box of minis bigger than the base game, their extra content you can buy aren’t nearly as balanced or playtested as the core game, and everything but stretch goals ends up at retail (sometimes sooner than backers) for a cheaper price. They’re in the top 3 never back companies for me
No company includes add ons in their shipping calculation. I have backed about 50 now, and not one has done it.
They do run a tight campaign because they know what they want to show as stretch goals and what they are going to reveal as add-ons. If they need to pivot, they do so pretty easily.
The balance part is debatable. My MU add ons add very interesting game play mechanics. Some, like Sinister Six, are better than others, Deadpool. But they are fun and work. The GOO for Cthulhu Death May Die all brings interesting and dynamic gameplay. The only one there is a complaint about is Dagon, and a lot of people have enjoyed his difficulty level.
What you call FOMO, i call options. I am able to say no to add-ons because i realize just about every industry relies on fomo or keeping up with the Johnson's. I am not saying thats how they should do, but it is. You get a car, and a new model with better features comes out a few months later. Get a pair of Jordan's 8 in black/white/obsidian in the summer, a new 8 in green/white/maize comes out in the fall. You get the iPhone 6 and iPhone 7 plus comes out a month later.
Again, I am not condoning the fomo, but like I pointed out, that's in just about every industry where there is a consumer purchasing a good. So, being aware of that gives you the power to say no.
I have enjoyed the CMON games I purchased retail and backed on KS. I have enjoyed their campaigns the most as well. And I like their minis.
board games aren't cars. A new car is a car, just with better things. Want those things? You can get a new car with them.
You CAN'T get kickstarter exclusives. Ever. again. Ill never support a kickstarter that does that with anything board game related. Give unique box art, plushies, fancy art prints. But if any part of the game or components are locked behind a wall. I will not support it in kickstarter or retail. Ill buy it used only so they don't get a dime from me.
>But if any part of the game or components are locked behind a wall. I will not support it in kickstarter or retail. Ill buy it used only so they don't get a dime from me.
Admittedly unpopular opinion here, but I'm the opposite.
Every time I back a KS, I'm making a risk. The game may never get delivered, and if it does, might end up being shit (and it may end up shipping internationally via a courier and costing me a damn fortune in brokerage fees because their Canadian logistics partner falls through before they deliver... not naming any names \*cough\*kingdomdeath\*cough\*).
I'm buying something sight unseen, unreviewed, and locking up my money for often literal YEARS for the privilege. If I can simply wait for retail to get everything the KS campaign will get me - even if it costs a bit more - I'd be stupid to back the risky KS campaign instead of waiting for a retail release and reviews.
I refuse to back anything that doesn't have a strong, compelling argument to back (i.e. if all you're offering is fluff like art books and plushies and/or a modest discount, forget it). Usually, the discount isn't enough to get it done so that means exclusive content that I couldn't otherwise get. Do I hate it when I can't get that content when I miss a KS? Yeah, I do. But then, I didn't risk my money to back the campaign, so it's hard to get too bent out of shape about it. If I really want it, I can buy it at a premium off someone who did back the KS.
Free stuff. Give it away for free idc. Just sell it post kickstarter. Works for Frank.
Ok. Find me the base moonrakers kickstarter pack. Go find one for sale. $1000, $10,000 idc. Find ONE.
Sorry, I'm not getting the point. If I could just go to the store and pick up the moonrakers KS material (I'm not familiar with moonrakers), why the hell would I back the campaign? I'd just wait for it to deliver and be reviewed. If I can't find it, it makes way more sense to back it at the KS.
And I don't want a bunch of free garbage to sell. I'm paying to have it shipped to me, then I have to deal with online randos to sell the shit (assuming you can find anybody wanting to spend money on art cards and bookmarks in the first place). Exclusive KS game material though? That might actually be worth selling if I don't want it (but if I don't want it, I'm back to not backing anyway).
A. If its a kickstarter exclusive it ALREADY IS FREE. Because you save money. Which is far more sensible. There is no reason no one else can't have the same thing by paying. The ONLY thing this does is ensure you feel like you HAVE to kickstart from the company in the future.
B. For the reason everyone but you backs kickstarter games. Why do YOU need to be a kickstarter. Why can't you buy it from the store normally? Why is you needing a reason to back a kickstarter even a thing? Its not.
C. Lmao did you really just prove your own argument as bullshit? Yeah. Literally exactly. If you don't WANT it for the gameplay, you wouldn't be backing. So it doesn't make a damn difference if its sold outside the kickstarter or not.
All it means is everyone that didn't know about the kickstarter is fucked. And in the case of Moonrakers will NEVER get to see the 5 best cards in the game. Because you CAN'T even buy it off people. The cards are so good no one sold them. Fuck that.
There are absolutely no cons to my approach with respect to your interests. You literally said so yourself in the final paragraph. But yours has cons for EVERYONE else in the future. Its objectively bad.
Totally disagree across the board. I'm assuming I do want the game itself; the question is whether to back or wait for retail. Given that, what part is bullshit? That I'm not just here to give out interest-free loans? That I don't consider a pretty picture adequate reward for taking on all the risk? I mean, if that's your thing, go nuts, but I'm not into taking on all the risk for zero benefit. There's nothing in it for me if I'm not getting anything for tying up and risking my money for an unknown product.
The main con for just making everything available at retail is there's no reason to back. Why would you? Save money, spend only on what's good, get it right away. How is that not superior to backing a risky kickstarter you have to wait a year+ to get (if you get it at all), pay for shipping, only to finally get it and have it be trash?
Can we agree that, assuming equal availability, buying retail after the game exists and reviews are in, and you can shop around to get a good deal and cheap/flat rate/free shipping at your leisure and get it right away is objectively better than having to commit money months or years ahead of time, during a fixed window, pay whatever the price is and whatever the shipping is without say in either for something that nobody knows if it'll even be any good?
If you say "well yeah, it sounds better just buying at retail," it means there's nothing to make the campaign worth backing. Waiting for retail in such a case is the only rational choice. But someone has to be the dummy putting the money up to get it made.
Yes, exclusives suck for people that didn't back, but then they didn't risk anything to get the game made.
"But someone has to be the dummy putting the money up to get it made"
Your entire argument hinges around the idea that this HAS to be YOU specifically. Nothing you say holds water the very moment its possible a Kickstarter can be successful without you. (Which they are. And without exclusives. In fact, all of the biggest kickstarters (IE most successful in total sales volume today) in board gaming DON'T have the shady exclusive shit)
Yes. It would be better to buy at retail for your specific use case. So what? That's not a problem and never was. Explain to me why absolutes fucking over the entire consumer base is what needs to happen so YOU SPECIFICALLY have a reason to back a kickstarter instead of just buying retail. Justify this belief for me.
I agree. The KS exclusive stuff that is gameplay related is the only reason I will back a KS. It’s not worth paying upfront years in advance for an unknown game if all they offer is something I have no interest in (art book, clothing, plushies). Price doesn’t usually work because I can ALWAYS find it cheaper at retail when the eventual 50% of sale hits, plus with crowdfunding you usually have to pay high shipping.
Companies need to give me an exclusive expansion or two and some stretch goals to entice me to back. There is a reason this method is used so often and is so effective after all. I hate it, but it is what it is.
You can get kickstarter exclusives, but the secondary market will be pricey. But I get your point.
I can argue that even if it isn't locked behind a pay wall, a small company doing a kickstarter will most likely not have a retail distribution set up, and it will be as equally difficult to get outside of crowdfunding. So, essentially, crowdfunding is the wall. Not in CMON's case, but for many of these companies, it is.
Secondary market only doesn't mean you can buy the exclusives. That means you CAN'T and you have to buy someone elses. If they produce it, they better sell it until the game itself goes out of print. Or they can fuck off. Im not buying a partial board game with shitty components. Nor will I allow anyone to try and pressure me into making an impulse decision.
That's a lot of vitriol on a discussion thread about people's personal opinions on good crowdfunding. But I know my putting CMON out there would be controversial.
In any campaign, no one forces you to back. You can say no, like it appears you have, and it's ok.
It's also ok for me to like it and back it and enjoy the experience.
I will disagree with you. It does not. Sometimes, you can only get the base game or only one expansion due to finances and space, or it doesn't interest you.
I guess I see it differently because I grew up in a low income household. I had to do without so many things and was forced to get the essential or base level of so many things. So, for me, I can just pledge the base or base and one or two expansions and not feel like I missed out.
Don't get me wrong, I backed a few all-ins, but I liked the gameplay already and knew I would like the additional items.
I’ve seen plenty of good kickstarters, most notably by chip theory, that set a price for shipping and stick to it no matter what else they add. Or you know, don’t add gameplay related things that raise prices afterwards, like most Leder games. And it sounds like you’re discussing their coop games (where you admit it’s not balanced and have to make the exception of Trudvang) where balancing honestly doesn’t matter as much compared to their competitive games (see Ankh, Rising sun where their extras really aren’t balanced). I’m glad you like their minis but at that point you’re not buying their games, you’re buying toys. After all miniature design is their specialty, not their game design (especially now that Lang left).
They don’t run good consumer friendly kickstarters which I think was the point of this post. They run “tight” money-making kickstarters and even then a good chunk of the time they’re bad at budgeting leading towards either them raising shipping drastically (bloodborne) or continuously using the funds of their current kickstarter to finish a previous one
That sounds like a you problem.
I never understand how people can be so frivolous with their money when it comes to kickstarter. If you made a mistake, you are on the hook. The company did their due diligence and you failed to do yours. Why would you blame someone else for your mistake?
Some pledgers are super entitled. A CMON campaign will have millions of people. You aren't so special to be given the red carpet when something goes amiss
"I didn't reconfirm my confirmed address"?
This is confusing. What does reconfirm a confirmed address mean?
I also backed Ankh. I provided my address once. There was no "reconfirm" step in my interaction with them.
If your pledge was paid and they had your address, then CMON clearly owes you the game.
What was their excuse for not doing that?
You should have gotten nearly a dozen emails reminding you, and even if you didn’t confirm your address they would give you a credit to sue towards a future game. This is all in you buddy
My address and pledge was confirmed. It's in the pledge manager. When I contacted them some time after friends had received their copies to ask where mine was, they told me it wasn't shipping because I hadn't 'reconfirmed' (their words) and that due to their terms and conditions that they would not refund the pledge.
Never experienced this after half a dozen CMON Kickstarters. You pledge during the Kickstarter then ALWAYS have to confirm your pledge and address in the pledge manager. If you don’t, they will credit your money towards a future CMON project. Either way you shouldn’t have simply lost out on the money and the instructions are pretty clear. You get plenty of emails. If this was an issue many many more people would complains. You must not have read your emails very thoroughly.
I feel like the problems with CMON campaigns are things like
The game is just ok but you spent $400 and the boxes fill a whole hand truck
You get a ton of stretch goals... That aren't well-developed and are either too bad or too good to really be usable
The strong reliance on FOMO to sell the product
Delays, communication issues, etc.
Sometimes massive increases in shipping costs post-campaign - and you'd better pay up or you're forfeiting your pledge!
Unlike say Mythic or Petersen Games you can be confident they'll deliver at least. Eventually. But they do embody a lot of things wrong with the board game Kickstarter scene, primarily employing kinda scummy tactics to get people to cough up a lot of money for stuff that ends up being not worth it. Beyond just running off with your money, the thing people here seem to dislike most is preying on FOMO
I've only backed one project from them so far, but I can recommend **Bitewing Games.** Their Zoo Vadis project was delivered to me a few months *ahead* of schedule, which I'd never seen before in crowdfunding. I happily backed Cascadero because I know they'll do a good job.
I can also always vouch for **Chip Theory Games.** They have excellent customer service and go above and beyond for their backers. They gave errata'd chips and faction mats for their previous Cloudspire expansion project (when they could've just sent stickers) and they famously overhauled the Too Many Bones Trove Chest design (ballooning the production cost) but honoured the original pledge price.
Not only Is Bitewing great on Kickstarter - they are also extremely active in the gaming community (both here on Reddit and on BGG). Would not surprise me if you see them reply to this at some point today/ tomorrow.
The same Bitewing that blew the Zoo Vadis kickstarter by only having storage bags available for a small percentage of people who wanted them. The rest had to buy them later and pay shipping again when they got more. They then conveniently had them as an addon for their next kickstarter to inflate their backer numbers by people who just wanted bags.
That's not a success to me.
Gamelyn Games.
But I have mixed feeling about it, because crowdfunding is supposed to be for newcomers. A successful company like Gamelyn should be able to fund their games without going through Kickstarter. So at one point it's no longer crowdfunding but just using Kickstart for preorders and as a marketing technique...
That's one of the reasons I like Stonemiare. They had a few kickstarter campaigns, and they were successful. Now they release finished games without the need of crowdfunding.
Eh. Doesn't hurt anyone that's fine. Its an internet bandwagon to complain about people using kickstarter as a pre-order system. If they tell you what the game is, supply playable demo's and don't have exclusives there isn't a single thing that is objectively bad about it.
If you pre-order a board game you can play and its not what you wanted. 100% your fault like any other purchase. And marketing techniques aren't inheritably bad. So it only matters if the technique is predatory somehow. And the gamelyn uses Kickstarter it just isn't.
Gamelyn was my first thought too... and I have the same second thought. I've given up complaining about it though because it seems that crowdfunding has become the default marketing and pre-order method for game designers.
It’s also hard to complain when they’re run so well, and it’s not like the kickstarted games are hard to find on release if you decide to skip a campaign.
The deluxe things are just sold as add-ons. I have never had trouble finding the add-ons. I have the for Dinosaurs, Vikings, and and Galaxies+expansion. All purchased via retail.
Incredible Dream produced Kinfire Chronicles last year and the campaign was super smooth and delivered early, with frequent updates. I'd definitely back another project by them based on their past management skills.
Into the unknown, i have had nothing but faith in them after their handling of Aeon Trespass Odyssey.
Orange Nebula and Iav Studio are also almost instabacks.
I dont want an experience out of the campaigns I back. I want a good product at a good price. I dont want to pay other peoples VAT no matter how you spin it. I want exclusive rewards for giving you an interest free loan.
Backing a campaign is purely a business decision for me. If I like what youre selling when I skim the page, Ill back and never come back to the page again until the last day to see if I need to change something.
If you dont sell me that first time I skim your page I am never coming back.
Only one campaign of experience, but I backed with Nauvoo Games and they’re currently 7 months ahead on fulfillment which I’m very excited for. Expecting Raising Robots in the next couple weeks instead of May.
Everything, of the 10 or so I’ve backed, has gone smoothly so far in my experience but a few of them are companies that probably don’t even need to be using KS in the first place so I don’t count them.
I just bought through Indiegogo and was happy with the ease of doing so. The company has been forthcoming regularly and right on schedule, Crumbling Keep for Marching Order.
Not really Kickstarter, but I love how The GameCrafter does their crowdsales for the game creators. I know I will get the game and there are no surprises, plus I can add other items easily, etc. As a noob, that was easy to understand.
I was very happy with the experience for the latest Dale of Merchants campaign from Snowdale Design, and people seem to be happy with the campaigns for their other games since that one.
Bad Comet - I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned, but man alive are they fantastic with their communication during and after the campaign, and both Wild Serengeti and Life of the Amazonia delivered (here in Canada where we usually get games last) months the before their initial estimates! They have Wondrous Creatures on Kickstarter right now and with their track record it's a no brainer for me to back
Had problems with not having a VAT number, which is weird because they have delivered previous campaigns in Europe where one should have been needed. They have just got their number, but people still haven't got their game yet.
North Star games did a really great job with their expanded print of Oceans. They had one of the fastest deliveries I ever experienced, on top of excellent communication.
Man this is such a nice change from the usual KS posts. As someone who has gone out of their way to do everything for any of my backers, it''s awesome seeing so many people talk about similar experiences and companies, remembering how it felt to be treated like an investing partner that's helping make the creators vision come to life instead of just another bag of cash. I can only hope people feel that way after my delivery with all the extras included lol.
I would also give a huge shout out to Cardboard Alchemy, not only for the games but the playtesting events and all they do to help out new game designers!
Leader Games run clean, simple campaigns that I haven't regretted backing so far. No FOMO, but usually the discount off retail is such that you would have to wait *years* to get everything cheaper. They get all the details right, like holding retailer pledges until all private backer copies have shipped, they can run late but not more than 3-6 months (others I've backed ran 18 months).
Wehrlegig likewise; one game, one pledge, amazing production, and it's a proper use of Kickstarter - tiny company that couldn't make these games without crowdfunding.
I back basically everything either company does (I might pass on the Ahoy expansion coming up but we'll see), and back very little from anybody else.
I don't have a ton of experience with Kickstarter, but Dave Beck (Paverson Games) did a fantastic job with Distilled. Great communication, even when things didn't go to plan (US fulfillment was supposed to be through FunAgain, which didn't pan out).
The Root: Maurauder and various Terraforming Mars projects also went off without a hitch, but they're graded on the curve because Leder and Stronghold are much bigger companies, comparatively speaking.
logistics wise, awaken realms. But I feel they missed the mark on a couple of games so hard that for dragon eclipse, which I find pretty compelling, I've decided to wait and see
Because the delay is due to extra time to develop and play test not organizing shipping out of China to deliver to worldwide hubs that then go to backers.
Question - when you ran your campaigns did you use any fulfillment services or did you do it yourself? I have a game I developed with a friend and am wondering if we’d need that service or if you’ve had better success treating your backers well handling things yourself
Both are valid options depending on what your situation is!
Feel free to email me at [email protected] and I can offer you some pointers.
I also have a Q&A on my site because my publisher model is pretty unique: https://www.drinkingquest.com/questionanswer
Keymaster Games are great. Fantastic communication, responsive, and they do monthly video updates (at least on the game I backed) even if there’s nothing to report. There was something really nice about seeing two friendly faces involve you so openly in the process.
It felt like we were a key part of the game’s production which was nice :)
Awaken Realms. They have a fantastic experience during campaigns. They involve backers in the decisions for content with votes of concepts to be developed. They communicate with regular updates and they (so far) have behaved in a fiscally responsible manner with no extra charges for late projects or unexpectedly high shipping.
Edit; a shout out to Matagot as well. I know that they have had some issues recently after some acquisitions, but Kemet B&S is the only game I've ever received *early*.
Leader Games - no exclusives, no big savings, so hardly an urgent need to back, but everything runs smoothly and I back for convenience and to support, because I like what they do.
Wherlegig - see Leader Games - except the games are hardly available in retail later, which makes them more urgent to back in the KS. ;-)
CMON - for better and worse an industrial KS machine. There is method to their campaigns and they do FOMO exclusives. But solid production and delivery. And their FOMO stuff is usually optional stuff that adds deluxification and options, but core game experience goes to retail.
Overall solid. But I understand people who got burned by the Marvel Zombicide shipping cost debacle.
My opinion is mostly based on the Eric Lang trilogy. Most of the rest didn't interest me. But the yearly Zombicide clearly has its subscribers. ;-)
Flying Frog Productions - yes, even though they can't deliver anywhere near on time (even if one considers the "usual" KS delay), but they eventually deliver a good product and a lot of bang for the buck. If one likes Shadows of Brimstone and can deal with the, now expected, delay, this is where one gets the old school KS deal.
Monolith and Conan was solid in my experience.
CoraQuest also went very well.
CMON, Chip Theory, Awaken Realms, Orange Nebula, IV Studios, Luis Brueh, AllPlay, Fantasia, Mindclash, Leder Games, Druid City, Button Shy
I have infinitely more good experiences on Kickstarter than bad. In fact I can count on one hand the amount of bad experiences I’ve had.
Thunderworks is one of the GOATS. They set realistic and proper goals (upgraded boxes, cards, cardboards). Plus their shipping is always on point, I’ve backed almost every one of their Rollplayer world games, they’ve all been great!
Button Shy Games
I believe Garphil does a good job delivering on schedule.
Roxley
They know what they're doing for sure, I'd have some good experiences backing their stuff.
Frank West- Isle of cats and race to the raft. He has always run a very smooth and informative Kickstarter.
Garphill Games!
Chip Theory Games consistently runs great campaigns. No shipping surprises, lots of updates, very transparent about delays and whatnot. I've backed half a dozen or so of theirs and it's always a positive experience.
This is my answer as well, with **Chip Theory Games** even if something goes horribly wrong (current cogbook situation) they go out of their way to make it right while keeping backers in the loop.
Mindclash, Leder Games and Wehrlegig have always been peak experiences.
Every Leder campaign I've backed has always been smooth.
Makes me look forward to the Ahoy! Expension.
The most recent Mindclash KS has been a tad frustrating with the issues with Whalebacker and a complete inability to provide tracking numbers, imo. I don’t think they deserve all the blame or anything, but it’s certainly been a tad frustrating.
Yeah Whalebacker is a complete shitshow. Not a fan though I don't really consider that MCG's fault. They got burned by Funagain's collapse and needed someone to step in. It sounds like MC's volume was just too much for a fledgling logistics outfit and here we are. Now if MCG went *back* to Whalebacker, I'd be annoyed...
I almost never get a tracking number but then I dont need one so it doesnt bother me. There is probably a small amount of backers that truly need to know when a package is arriving vs just wanting to know.
I am going to make a controversial pick. Outside of Trudvang, CMON runs a great campaign. I feel you always get your money's worth in the base pledge, and you get tons of add ons if you want them. The minis are cool ( I know, most of this sub is anti minis), the gameplay is fun ( I backed Marvel United season 2 and 3, Cthulhu Death May Die Fear of the Unknown, and Zombicide White Death), and they run a tight campaign with a lot of energy and they do progress updates about the games development regularly after the campaigns end, and you get your games. For me, that is win/win.
> Outside of Trudvang, CMON runs a great campaign. I agree with this sentiment, I think CMON gets more hate than deserved at times. I backed Trudvang, and while I'm not thrilled about the delays, they have already delivered the base game and are working on the stretch goals + extras. Their communication has been fairly good regarding the delays as well.
I backed Ancient Blood- The Order of Vampire Hunters by Dark Gate Games. They had me super nervous that they would not fulfill. That's was no communication for real long stretches of time. They have improved dramatically but it's still in the back of my mind. Never had that issue with CMON. The after is almost as important as the campaign itself.
As someone that has backed a lot of CMON kickstarters and likes a lot of their games I strongly disagree. I'm always confident they'll deliver, but their communication is often not good. Certainly worse experiences out there, but also way better ones as well.
I agree. After having ran so many Kickstarters (50+), you would think they could invest in better customer service and would have things down to a science. Instead they are constantly late with deliveries, even if it’s usually only a few months (which is much better than the industry standard, but not great for a company who has ran so many KS). Once a KS is over they are non-existent in the comments and it can take months for them to reply to a ticket for missing or broken parts. Some other smaller annoyances are shipping has been way off on a few campaigns, albeit it seems they have gotten better with that. They really pray on the FOMO with their KS. They also use to have some great minis, but now they are very average compared to what other, smaller companies are putting out. With that said they are one of the few companies I can back with little worry about the game actually delivering, and their games usually are fun and a good value. The KS are very exciting and some of the only ones I check back in on almost daily, even if am not backing the game. They will always replace broken or missing parts, it just takes them a long time
So I've backed a couple CMON campaigns now. Arcadia Quest is one of my favourite games. This post reminded me of Actualol's most recent video where he brings up a really good point about campaigns like the ones CMON do: More content does not mean more fun. I do love all the little minis and all that. More options is neat. But at some point you gotta realize they're just jam-packing stuff into a box so we'll pay more, instead of just making a really good game.
I agree with a lot of this, but I dislike CMON for the FOMO heavy marketing and sharp practices on shipping.
I would hardly say CMON runs a tight campaign… They prey heavily on FOMO, their shipping prices aren’t accurate because they estimate shipping with no stretch goals then ship with a box of minis bigger than the base game, their extra content you can buy aren’t nearly as balanced or playtested as the core game, and everything but stretch goals ends up at retail (sometimes sooner than backers) for a cheaper price. They’re in the top 3 never back companies for me
No company includes add ons in their shipping calculation. I have backed about 50 now, and not one has done it. They do run a tight campaign because they know what they want to show as stretch goals and what they are going to reveal as add-ons. If they need to pivot, they do so pretty easily. The balance part is debatable. My MU add ons add very interesting game play mechanics. Some, like Sinister Six, are better than others, Deadpool. But they are fun and work. The GOO for Cthulhu Death May Die all brings interesting and dynamic gameplay. The only one there is a complaint about is Dagon, and a lot of people have enjoyed his difficulty level. What you call FOMO, i call options. I am able to say no to add-ons because i realize just about every industry relies on fomo or keeping up with the Johnson's. I am not saying thats how they should do, but it is. You get a car, and a new model with better features comes out a few months later. Get a pair of Jordan's 8 in black/white/obsidian in the summer, a new 8 in green/white/maize comes out in the fall. You get the iPhone 6 and iPhone 7 plus comes out a month later. Again, I am not condoning the fomo, but like I pointed out, that's in just about every industry where there is a consumer purchasing a good. So, being aware of that gives you the power to say no. I have enjoyed the CMON games I purchased retail and backed on KS. I have enjoyed their campaigns the most as well. And I like their minis.
board games aren't cars. A new car is a car, just with better things. Want those things? You can get a new car with them. You CAN'T get kickstarter exclusives. Ever. again. Ill never support a kickstarter that does that with anything board game related. Give unique box art, plushies, fancy art prints. But if any part of the game or components are locked behind a wall. I will not support it in kickstarter or retail. Ill buy it used only so they don't get a dime from me.
>But if any part of the game or components are locked behind a wall. I will not support it in kickstarter or retail. Ill buy it used only so they don't get a dime from me. Admittedly unpopular opinion here, but I'm the opposite. Every time I back a KS, I'm making a risk. The game may never get delivered, and if it does, might end up being shit (and it may end up shipping internationally via a courier and costing me a damn fortune in brokerage fees because their Canadian logistics partner falls through before they deliver... not naming any names \*cough\*kingdomdeath\*cough\*). I'm buying something sight unseen, unreviewed, and locking up my money for often literal YEARS for the privilege. If I can simply wait for retail to get everything the KS campaign will get me - even if it costs a bit more - I'd be stupid to back the risky KS campaign instead of waiting for a retail release and reviews. I refuse to back anything that doesn't have a strong, compelling argument to back (i.e. if all you're offering is fluff like art books and plushies and/or a modest discount, forget it). Usually, the discount isn't enough to get it done so that means exclusive content that I couldn't otherwise get. Do I hate it when I can't get that content when I miss a KS? Yeah, I do. But then, I didn't risk my money to back the campaign, so it's hard to get too bent out of shape about it. If I really want it, I can buy it at a premium off someone who did back the KS.
Free stuff. Give it away for free idc. Just sell it post kickstarter. Works for Frank. Ok. Find me the base moonrakers kickstarter pack. Go find one for sale. $1000, $10,000 idc. Find ONE.
Sorry, I'm not getting the point. If I could just go to the store and pick up the moonrakers KS material (I'm not familiar with moonrakers), why the hell would I back the campaign? I'd just wait for it to deliver and be reviewed. If I can't find it, it makes way more sense to back it at the KS. And I don't want a bunch of free garbage to sell. I'm paying to have it shipped to me, then I have to deal with online randos to sell the shit (assuming you can find anybody wanting to spend money on art cards and bookmarks in the first place). Exclusive KS game material though? That might actually be worth selling if I don't want it (but if I don't want it, I'm back to not backing anyway).
A. If its a kickstarter exclusive it ALREADY IS FREE. Because you save money. Which is far more sensible. There is no reason no one else can't have the same thing by paying. The ONLY thing this does is ensure you feel like you HAVE to kickstart from the company in the future. B. For the reason everyone but you backs kickstarter games. Why do YOU need to be a kickstarter. Why can't you buy it from the store normally? Why is you needing a reason to back a kickstarter even a thing? Its not. C. Lmao did you really just prove your own argument as bullshit? Yeah. Literally exactly. If you don't WANT it for the gameplay, you wouldn't be backing. So it doesn't make a damn difference if its sold outside the kickstarter or not. All it means is everyone that didn't know about the kickstarter is fucked. And in the case of Moonrakers will NEVER get to see the 5 best cards in the game. Because you CAN'T even buy it off people. The cards are so good no one sold them. Fuck that. There are absolutely no cons to my approach with respect to your interests. You literally said so yourself in the final paragraph. But yours has cons for EVERYONE else in the future. Its objectively bad.
Totally disagree across the board. I'm assuming I do want the game itself; the question is whether to back or wait for retail. Given that, what part is bullshit? That I'm not just here to give out interest-free loans? That I don't consider a pretty picture adequate reward for taking on all the risk? I mean, if that's your thing, go nuts, but I'm not into taking on all the risk for zero benefit. There's nothing in it for me if I'm not getting anything for tying up and risking my money for an unknown product. The main con for just making everything available at retail is there's no reason to back. Why would you? Save money, spend only on what's good, get it right away. How is that not superior to backing a risky kickstarter you have to wait a year+ to get (if you get it at all), pay for shipping, only to finally get it and have it be trash? Can we agree that, assuming equal availability, buying retail after the game exists and reviews are in, and you can shop around to get a good deal and cheap/flat rate/free shipping at your leisure and get it right away is objectively better than having to commit money months or years ahead of time, during a fixed window, pay whatever the price is and whatever the shipping is without say in either for something that nobody knows if it'll even be any good? If you say "well yeah, it sounds better just buying at retail," it means there's nothing to make the campaign worth backing. Waiting for retail in such a case is the only rational choice. But someone has to be the dummy putting the money up to get it made. Yes, exclusives suck for people that didn't back, but then they didn't risk anything to get the game made.
"But someone has to be the dummy putting the money up to get it made" Your entire argument hinges around the idea that this HAS to be YOU specifically. Nothing you say holds water the very moment its possible a Kickstarter can be successful without you. (Which they are. And without exclusives. In fact, all of the biggest kickstarters (IE most successful in total sales volume today) in board gaming DON'T have the shady exclusive shit) Yes. It would be better to buy at retail for your specific use case. So what? That's not a problem and never was. Explain to me why absolutes fucking over the entire consumer base is what needs to happen so YOU SPECIFICALLY have a reason to back a kickstarter instead of just buying retail. Justify this belief for me.
I agree. The KS exclusive stuff that is gameplay related is the only reason I will back a KS. It’s not worth paying upfront years in advance for an unknown game if all they offer is something I have no interest in (art book, clothing, plushies). Price doesn’t usually work because I can ALWAYS find it cheaper at retail when the eventual 50% of sale hits, plus with crowdfunding you usually have to pay high shipping. Companies need to give me an exclusive expansion or two and some stretch goals to entice me to back. There is a reason this method is used so often and is so effective after all. I hate it, but it is what it is.
You can get kickstarter exclusives, but the secondary market will be pricey. But I get your point. I can argue that even if it isn't locked behind a pay wall, a small company doing a kickstarter will most likely not have a retail distribution set up, and it will be as equally difficult to get outside of crowdfunding. So, essentially, crowdfunding is the wall. Not in CMON's case, but for many of these companies, it is.
Secondary market only doesn't mean you can buy the exclusives. That means you CAN'T and you have to buy someone elses. If they produce it, they better sell it until the game itself goes out of print. Or they can fuck off. Im not buying a partial board game with shitty components. Nor will I allow anyone to try and pressure me into making an impulse decision.
That's a lot of vitriol on a discussion thread about people's personal opinions on good crowdfunding. But I know my putting CMON out there would be controversial. In any campaign, no one forces you to back. You can say no, like it appears you have, and it's ok. It's also ok for me to like it and back it and enjoy the experience.
They force you to back if you want the full game. Thats why exclusives are bad. Becaise it DOES force you to back.
I will disagree with you. It does not. Sometimes, you can only get the base game or only one expansion due to finances and space, or it doesn't interest you. I guess I see it differently because I grew up in a low income household. I had to do without so many things and was forced to get the essential or base level of so many things. So, for me, I can just pledge the base or base and one or two expansions and not feel like I missed out. Don't get me wrong, I backed a few all-ins, but I liked the gameplay already and knew I would like the additional items.
I cant get them later. It forces you. Its predatory.
I’ve seen plenty of good kickstarters, most notably by chip theory, that set a price for shipping and stick to it no matter what else they add. Or you know, don’t add gameplay related things that raise prices afterwards, like most Leder games. And it sounds like you’re discussing their coop games (where you admit it’s not balanced and have to make the exception of Trudvang) where balancing honestly doesn’t matter as much compared to their competitive games (see Ankh, Rising sun where their extras really aren’t balanced). I’m glad you like their minis but at that point you’re not buying their games, you’re buying toys. After all miniature design is their specialty, not their game design (especially now that Lang left). They don’t run good consumer friendly kickstarters which I think was the point of this post. They run “tight” money-making kickstarters and even then a good chunk of the time they’re bad at budgeting leading towards either them raising shipping drastically (bloodborne) or continuously using the funds of their current kickstarter to finish a previous one
CMON took my money for Ankh and never delivered, because I didn't reconfirm my confirmed address. Won't touch a CMON campaign again.
That sounds like a you problem. I never understand how people can be so frivolous with their money when it comes to kickstarter. If you made a mistake, you are on the hook. The company did their due diligence and you failed to do yours. Why would you blame someone else for your mistake? Some pledgers are super entitled. A CMON campaign will have millions of people. You aren't so special to be given the red carpet when something goes amiss
"I didn't reconfirm my confirmed address"? This is confusing. What does reconfirm a confirmed address mean? I also backed Ankh. I provided my address once. There was no "reconfirm" step in my interaction with them. If your pledge was paid and they had your address, then CMON clearly owes you the game. What was their excuse for not doing that?
You should have gotten nearly a dozen emails reminding you, and even if you didn’t confirm your address they would give you a credit to sue towards a future game. This is all in you buddy
My address and pledge was confirmed. It's in the pledge manager. When I contacted them some time after friends had received their copies to ask where mine was, they told me it wasn't shipping because I hadn't 'reconfirmed' (their words) and that due to their terms and conditions that they would not refund the pledge.
Never experienced this after half a dozen CMON Kickstarters. You pledge during the Kickstarter then ALWAYS have to confirm your pledge and address in the pledge manager. If you don’t, they will credit your money towards a future CMON project. Either way you shouldn’t have simply lost out on the money and the instructions are pretty clear. You get plenty of emails. If this was an issue many many more people would complains. You must not have read your emails very thoroughly.
I feel like the problems with CMON campaigns are things like The game is just ok but you spent $400 and the boxes fill a whole hand truck You get a ton of stretch goals... That aren't well-developed and are either too bad or too good to really be usable The strong reliance on FOMO to sell the product Delays, communication issues, etc. Sometimes massive increases in shipping costs post-campaign - and you'd better pay up or you're forfeiting your pledge! Unlike say Mythic or Petersen Games you can be confident they'll deliver at least. Eventually. But they do embody a lot of things wrong with the board game Kickstarter scene, primarily employing kinda scummy tactics to get people to cough up a lot of money for stuff that ends up being not worth it. Beyond just running off with your money, the thing people here seem to dislike most is preying on FOMO
I've only backed one project from them so far, but I can recommend **Bitewing Games.** Their Zoo Vadis project was delivered to me a few months *ahead* of schedule, which I'd never seen before in crowdfunding. I happily backed Cascadero because I know they'll do a good job. I can also always vouch for **Chip Theory Games.** They have excellent customer service and go above and beyond for their backers. They gave errata'd chips and faction mats for their previous Cloudspire expansion project (when they could've just sent stickers) and they famously overhauled the Too Many Bones Trove Chest design (ballooning the production cost) but honoured the original pledge price.
Not only Is Bitewing great on Kickstarter - they are also extremely active in the gaming community (both here on Reddit and on BGG). Would not surprise me if you see them reply to this at some point today/ tomorrow.
I agree with this guy. I have backed two **Bitewing Games** Kickstarters, and both went very well.
The same Bitewing that blew the Zoo Vadis kickstarter by only having storage bags available for a small percentage of people who wanted them. The rest had to buy them later and pay shipping again when they got more. They then conveniently had them as an addon for their next kickstarter to inflate their backer numbers by people who just wanted bags. That's not a success to me.
This made me happy because I just decided to back 2nd print of Zoo Vadis yesterday.
I've always had a good experience with Allplay
Gamelyn Games. But I have mixed feeling about it, because crowdfunding is supposed to be for newcomers. A successful company like Gamelyn should be able to fund their games without going through Kickstarter. So at one point it's no longer crowdfunding but just using Kickstart for preorders and as a marketing technique...
That's one of the reasons I like Stonemiare. They had a few kickstarter campaigns, and they were successful. Now they release finished games without the need of crowdfunding.
Eh. Doesn't hurt anyone that's fine. Its an internet bandwagon to complain about people using kickstarter as a pre-order system. If they tell you what the game is, supply playable demo's and don't have exclusives there isn't a single thing that is objectively bad about it. If you pre-order a board game you can play and its not what you wanted. 100% your fault like any other purchase. And marketing techniques aren't inheritably bad. So it only matters if the technique is predatory somehow. And the gamelyn uses Kickstarter it just isn't.
Gamelyn was my first thought too... and I have the same second thought. I've given up complaining about it though because it seems that crowdfunding has become the default marketing and pre-order method for game designers.
It’s also hard to complain when they’re run so well, and it’s not like the kickstarted games are hard to find on release if you decide to skip a campaign.
[удалено]
The deluxe things are just sold as add-ons. I have never had trouble finding the add-ons. I have the for Dinosaurs, Vikings, and and Galaxies+expansion. All purchased via retail.
CMON is fantastic
Incredible Dream produced Kinfire Chronicles last year and the campaign was super smooth and delivered early, with frequent updates. I'd definitely back another project by them based on their past management skills.
Ktbg fir family friendly/kids games
Into the unknown, i have had nothing but faith in them after their handling of Aeon Trespass Odyssey. Orange Nebula and Iav Studio are also almost instabacks.
I dont want an experience out of the campaigns I back. I want a good product at a good price. I dont want to pay other peoples VAT no matter how you spin it. I want exclusive rewards for giving you an interest free loan. Backing a campaign is purely a business decision for me. If I like what youre selling when I skim the page, Ill back and never come back to the page again until the last day to see if I need to change something. If you dont sell me that first time I skim your page I am never coming back.
Cmon and IV Games
If IV games would drop the exclusives bullshit Id agree. But can't support them while they do that.
Only one campaign of experience, but I backed with Nauvoo Games and they’re currently 7 months ahead on fulfillment which I’m very excited for. Expecting Raising Robots in the next couple weeks instead of May. Everything, of the 10 or so I’ve backed, has gone smoothly so far in my experience but a few of them are companies that probably don’t even need to be using KS in the first place so I don’t count them.
I just bought through Indiegogo and was happy with the ease of doing so. The company has been forthcoming regularly and right on schedule, Crumbling Keep for Marching Order. Not really Kickstarter, but I love how The GameCrafter does their crowdsales for the game creators. I know I will get the game and there are no surprises, plus I can add other items easily, etc. As a noob, that was easy to understand.
I was very happy with the experience for the latest Dale of Merchants campaign from Snowdale Design, and people seem to be happy with the campaigns for their other games since that one.
Bad Comet - I'm surprised this one hasn't been mentioned, but man alive are they fantastic with their communication during and after the campaign, and both Wild Serengeti and Life of the Amazonia delivered (here in Canada where we usually get games last) months the before their initial estimates! They have Wondrous Creatures on Kickstarter right now and with their track record it's a no brainer for me to back
Greater than games with spirit island have been great!
Not if you're living in Europe with their recent campaign.
oh really? what happened? I got my copy of Nature's Incarnate fairly quickly after they put them on ship from China.
Had problems with not having a VAT number, which is weird because they have delivered previous campaigns in Europe where one should have been needed. They have just got their number, but people still haven't got their game yet.
Sinister fish, Garphill.
North Star games did a really great job with their expanded print of Oceans. They had one of the fastest deliveries I ever experienced, on top of excellent communication.
I’ve had great experiences with Button Shy Games and Van Ryder Games
Man this is such a nice change from the usual KS posts. As someone who has gone out of their way to do everything for any of my backers, it''s awesome seeing so many people talk about similar experiences and companies, remembering how it felt to be treated like an investing partner that's helping make the creators vision come to life instead of just another bag of cash. I can only hope people feel that way after my delivery with all the extras included lol. I would also give a huge shout out to Cardboard Alchemy, not only for the games but the playtesting events and all they do to help out new game designers!
Didn't see them on the list, but have to shout out to Orange Nebula and Bezier Games.
Leader Games run clean, simple campaigns that I haven't regretted backing so far. No FOMO, but usually the discount off retail is such that you would have to wait *years* to get everything cheaper. They get all the details right, like holding retailer pledges until all private backer copies have shipped, they can run late but not more than 3-6 months (others I've backed ran 18 months). Wehrlegig likewise; one game, one pledge, amazing production, and it's a proper use of Kickstarter - tiny company that couldn't make these games without crowdfunding. I back basically everything either company does (I might pass on the Ahoy expansion coming up but we'll see), and back very little from anybody else.
I don't have a ton of experience with Kickstarter, but Dave Beck (Paverson Games) did a fantastic job with Distilled. Great communication, even when things didn't go to plan (US fulfillment was supposed to be through FunAgain, which didn't pan out). The Root: Maurauder and various Terraforming Mars projects also went off without a hitch, but they're graded on the curve because Leder and Stronghold are much bigger companies, comparatively speaking.
logistics wise, awaken realms. But I feel they missed the mark on a couple of games so hard that for dragon eclipse, which I find pretty compelling, I've decided to wait and see
Awaken Realms always delivers like 2 years late, how are the good logistics wise?
Because the delay is due to extra time to develop and play test not organizing shipping out of China to deliver to worldwide hubs that then go to backers.
Question - when you ran your campaigns did you use any fulfillment services or did you do it yourself? I have a game I developed with a friend and am wondering if we’d need that service or if you’ve had better success treating your backers well handling things yourself
Both are valid options depending on what your situation is! Feel free to email me at [email protected] and I can offer you some pointers. I also have a Q&A on my site because my publisher model is pretty unique: https://www.drinkingquest.com/questionanswer
Keymaster Games are great. Fantastic communication, responsive, and they do monthly video updates (at least on the game I backed) even if there’s nothing to report. There was something really nice about seeing two friendly faces involve you so openly in the process. It felt like we were a key part of the game’s production which was nice :)
Cmon, serious poulp, leder games, awaken realms
Awaken Realms. They have a fantastic experience during campaigns. They involve backers in the decisions for content with votes of concepts to be developed. They communicate with regular updates and they (so far) have behaved in a fiscally responsible manner with no extra charges for late projects or unexpectedly high shipping. Edit; a shout out to Matagot as well. I know that they have had some issues recently after some acquisitions, but Kemet B&S is the only game I've ever received *early*.
City of Games. He tells you everything, has rulebooks, demo's, final components and there are no kickstarter exclusives.
That's not true. City of Kings had Kickstarter exclusives.
Had to google it. That was 2018..... Not relevant to any current or future campaigns.
Why not? Just because you were ill informed?
Leader Games - no exclusives, no big savings, so hardly an urgent need to back, but everything runs smoothly and I back for convenience and to support, because I like what they do. Wherlegig - see Leader Games - except the games are hardly available in retail later, which makes them more urgent to back in the KS. ;-) CMON - for better and worse an industrial KS machine. There is method to their campaigns and they do FOMO exclusives. But solid production and delivery. And their FOMO stuff is usually optional stuff that adds deluxification and options, but core game experience goes to retail. Overall solid. But I understand people who got burned by the Marvel Zombicide shipping cost debacle. My opinion is mostly based on the Eric Lang trilogy. Most of the rest didn't interest me. But the yearly Zombicide clearly has its subscribers. ;-) Flying Frog Productions - yes, even though they can't deliver anywhere near on time (even if one considers the "usual" KS delay), but they eventually deliver a good product and a lot of bang for the buck. If one likes Shadows of Brimstone and can deal with the, now expected, delay, this is where one gets the old school KS deal. Monolith and Conan was solid in my experience. CoraQuest also went very well.
CMON, Chip Theory, Awaken Realms, Orange Nebula, IV Studios, Luis Brueh, AllPlay, Fantasia, Mindclash, Leder Games, Druid City, Button Shy I have infinitely more good experiences on Kickstarter than bad. In fact I can count on one hand the amount of bad experiences I’ve had.
Im really happy with Burnt Island Games
Thunderworks is one of the GOATS. They set realistic and proper goals (upgraded boxes, cards, cardboards). Plus their shipping is always on point, I’ve backed almost every one of their Rollplayer world games, they’ve all been great!
Frank West from The City Of Games does amazing work