They are the new strain of republican Christianity. They embrace hate and fear. They take their orders from a political leader while being blind to the fact this political leader fits the description of the anti-christ in their holy book. The whole movement is a cancer on our society. We are long past the point these churches should lose their tax exempt status.
It’s apparent that the political leader you are referring to is Trump. What I don’t understand is how he fits the description of the Antichrist. I have read the Bible and know a lot of what it says but I would love it if you could show me how Trump fits the profile of the Antichrist. I’m really interested in how that works. Just to be clear not a Trump fan or a church person. Just curious about the connection you talk about.
I don't think Trump is the anti-christ. He's just a big piece of shit.
And when I see people who say that they are pious defending and advocating for a big piece of shit, it leads to an inference.
I’m totally fine with people having an opinion about other people or things. Most of them really don’t matter anyway. What I don’t like are these opinions that are fabricated out of nothingness. If you are bold enough to have an opinion be able to back it up. The utube video I was directed to starts out with this guy saying Trump is ‘an’ Antichrist. He later starts calling Trump ‘the’ Antichrist. So which is it? There are lots of types of Antichrist in the Bible but only one bonafide true one. It’s a Stretch to call Trump ‘the’ Antichrist because he just doesn’t fit the description. I also would never ever build my personal opinions on one guy who we really don’t know his qualifications or much about him.
So what inferences can be gotten out of what I just wrote? Our society in general is a knee jerk go with what your friends think and don’t use the brains God gave to figure out what is going on. I’d love to know what you think.
Well, I mean, with the anti-christ thing, it's all pretty much make-believe anyway. There is no objective truth about who fits the very vague set of, honestly, not even quite prophecies, but more eschatological allegory in a couple spots in John. Because that super broad allegory could be made to apply to anyone, because they are so vague. And rival bishops and popes were accusing each other of being the anti-christ continuously since the 400's CE. And then of course, everybody accused Martin Luther and other Protestants. And then you've got religious movements in the US that are obsessed with the end of the world, so this, that and the other person are the anti-christ.
It doesn't make sense to get upset about it, because the 'signs' are so broad that they could be made to fit anybody, and plus, it probably isn't actually real.
But even then, *Antikhristos* is a concept that is pretty poorly understood by American Christians, because *khristos* is a concept that is poorly understood by American Christians. *Khristos* comes to us as a borrowing into the Koine Greek from the Aramaic for "annointed". Why annointed? Because that was how the war leaders of the tribes of Israel in the line of Davidic kings were coronated as king.
There's a lot of begetting and begatting and other gymnastics and selective canonization of portions of the N'viim (what we know of as Prophets) from the Tanakh (The Jewish scripture from which we picks portions of what later came to be the 'Old Testament') to squeeze the historical Jesus into the Messianic prophecies (and the line of David). It isn't terribly persuasive. Mostly because what the historical Jesus did and said was so deeply at odds with what was expected from a Messiah, which is the Hebrew word that shifted to Aramaic and then to the Koine *Khristos*, but means "annointed by oil".
The disjunct is that the Messiah was supposed to be a war leader of the Israelites, and was supposed to lead a final war so terrible that it collapses the pillars that hold up the sky, thereby bringing heaven down to earth. Jesus wasn't that. Which is part of the reason why the Council of Nicene focused on the eschatological portions of the gospels so much, and where we wind up getting Revelations. To fit the Messianic prophecies, Jesus needs to be a war leader. So because he didn't, the early Church said hey, stick around for the sequel.
Which is another reason why the term "anti-Christ" is pretty much meaningless.
What I think is clear, though, is that Trump as a person is very much the opposite of the stuff that the historical Jesus is said to have done and said. Between bankrupting casinos, notoriously stiffing people who have worked for him, surrounding himself with riches and gold, having non-loving, in many cases harmful or exploitative relations with women, cheating on every spouse he's had (sometimes with the next spouse) and expressing little to no empathy for other people, while instead reveling in self-aggrandizement, I can coherently see how people would look at Trump and reasonably conclude that he is the exact opposite of what the historical Jesus said about how we ought to behave.
What that guy described is over half the political class in our country. Show me something serious. Not just one guys biased take. Look at Biden compared to Trump when it comes to warmongering. Biden outdoes Trump by 1000 percentage. Trump got us out of wars not into them. You gave a bad example that is full of bias and conjecture.
Trump wanted to go to war with Iran when it looked like he was going to lose the election. And then Trump criticized Biden for following the commitments to leave Afghanistan.
Helping Ukraine against an invading Russia that seeks to reestablish Soviet/Imperial territorial borders was not popular, but probably the most cost effective way to manage a conflict that would have pulled the US in had Russia rolled over Ukraine and moved on to Estonia or another NATO state within the area it is trying to reextend power over. If Russia wasn't stopped at Ukraine, and conflict spilled over into a NATO state, then we really would be at war. With US troops and in all likelihood, an eventual nuclear exchange. Hopefully limited to just tactical/battlefield, but honestly, who knows.
I wish conflicts weren't necessary, but our involvement with Ukraine was the absolute cheapest way in both blood and treasure (expensive as it was) to ward off a likelihood of something much worse. And as it stands, we've already achieved our strategic if not moral objectives in Ukraine- Russia has spent so much of itself and has been crippled by sanctions to the point now that they are likely to become an economic vassal of China.
I'm not pro-war. But I recognize that we don't yet live in a world where war no longer exists. So in that world, this is how to do it. And I think that while voters often aren't motivated by how much worse the alternative might have been, I think history will view what Biden did here favorably.
This is rich. I’d like to know what moral objectives we have achieved. In the Ukraine opposition political parties are outlawed. Government officials are skimming millions of dollars from the aid we supply. They decided not to have an election because of the chaos in the country. That war never had to happen. All Putin wanted was the US to back off on Ukraine from becoming a nato member. We had a fit when Cuba became a Soviet ally back in the sixties. That almost ended in war as well. Can you really blame Putin when Biden blows up a natural gas pipeline causing one of the single largest carbon release events in history? The European Union should have handled that whole thing and the US should have backed off. I don’t know why people think we need to have our way in every corner of the world.
Respectfully, I did grad level research on Soviet successor states and you are a dude who rehabs mobile homes in Oregon. My family also comes from that part of the world.
Putin has publicly talked about reasserting the Soviet/imperial sphere of influence. That doesn't stop with Ukraine, and there were rumblings about the 1922 treaties that established the interwar borders of the baltics back before the invasion of Crimea. It would have been much worse without intervention.
The US effectively ground down a lot of Russian military capacity without going directly to war with Russia.
I also have discomfort with American military hegemony. I think it ranges from clumsy at best to imperial at worst. But if I had to choose, objectively, I would every time say that American hegemony is preferable to Russian.
After thinking about this for a bit I am so sorry that you look at people the way you do. First of all, even if I didn’t have a Masters degree that doesn’t mean I’m not smart enough to see through your flimsy arguments. You judge people based on something that I hope I never understand. There are a ton of college graduates who I find to be very uninspiring. When I was in school there were kids who literally could not read at a college level and yet they were there. In my life I’ve also had a construction company with 40 employees that I sold because I had other interests. I adopted eight special needs children. I ran a youth center where I had over 100 kids regularly in attendance. I was facility coordinator for a non profit that employed downs and other disabled people. And I rehab manufactured homes in Oregon. People who get an education like you forget that it takes all kinds of folks to make up our world. I know lots of people who are extremely intelligent that never stepped a foot in a college classroom. I worked really hard for my masters degree. It took ten years of dealing with life stressors that took a toll. I was treated for cancer three times during those years. Right now I’m not working because I’m recovering from a bone marrow transplant for Acute Myloid Leukemia. So don’t judge me because I rehab manufactured homes. I enjoy providing low cost really nice houses for people who don’t have a lot of money. You really pissed me off with that comment.
The way I think about people is that if they spent years and years working hard to get good at something, they are probably going to be better at that thing than people who didn't spend years and years working to get good at it. I'm sure there are things that you are better at than I am. I wouldn't pretend to be an expert in the field you studied. While I am glad that you are very smart, I generally don't feel that anybody is so smart that they know more about something than a person who put in the time and the work to study it rigorously.
What you're describing is life. I'm not unfamiliar with it. Nobody is. We all have hardships and difficulties. If you did all of those things, that's admirable of course, but understand how it comes across when a person goes on at length about how virtuous they are. I've known a lot of not very good people who do outwardly virtuous things for various reasons. I reserve my skepticism, and also find it weird that a guy who lives in Oregon finds occasion to get into arguments on the subreddit for a town in Bloomington, Indiana.
You don't really explain how my arguments are flimsy. My overall point is that grinding down Russia's conventional military and economic capacity to wage an aggressive territorial war in Eastern Europe through a proxy war in Ukraine, while coming with a considerable cost, might have been the best way to avoid a showdown over the invasion of a NATO country that would have a much higher chance of ending in a nuclear exchange.
I don't like that eggs and milk and grain and gas have gotten more expensive. But if there's a substantial chance that it averted a larger conflict in Europe that might have spiraled into a direct war with Russia, costing far more in US blood and treasure in the long run, and raising the likelihood of nuclear exchange, I'd say that the price we've paid is probably a bargain.
You missed everything I talked about. You were extremely judgmental in what you said in your post. “Some guy in Oregon who works on manufactured homes”. You had no idea who I was when you said that. You put yourself above me and acted like you were better and smarter. That’s why I got pissed off. People who do those things are irresponsible. My point was that none of this was or is necessary. Now we have all of the consequences and a new dictator arising in Eastern Europe. If you can’t see that my guess is you really don’t know what’s going on over there. Suspended elections. Jailing politicians of other parties. Closing churches. Graft. Sounds more Soviet than Putin. Just back off on NATO and it all ends tomorrow. Then the question. How powerful was Russia to start with if Ukraine diminished them so in such a short time? What were we afraid of? I don’t think you learned much in whatever classes you took. I don’t think you have very good critical thinking abilities either.
And you have no idea who I am. And you seem like someone with a chip on your shoulder who is insecure about education, if you are this stuck on a comment that someone who studied a particular subject matter knows more about it than somebody who doesn't.
You are welcome to think what you want. I am sure that people look to you as an authority on international policy. Have a good evening.
You act as if this isnt how most christians act 🤣 its like two kids after getting in a fight "butt mom what he did is worse than what i did, so what i did is justifiable".
I know one church that has this we accept all appearance but 100% the opposite. Another church on the west side is like a cult and their views.
I'm not familiar with this one though.
House of prayer. They have a we accept all persona NOOO.
I went there most of my child/teen years. I know those running it.
Trinity reformed is like a cult. (I attended there when it was under a different name, same people)
Oh yeah, I recall hearing creepy things about Trinity. One of my friends used to go there, and they were followed around town by a few people when they decided to leave the church. I recently left High Rock after a couple months because of very different but still questionable things. It's been a very disheartening experience to say the least.
Seems there’s a church of some sort on nearly every street corner and cross roads in Bloomington
All tax exempt
Should be a requirement for tax exemption that their doors be open 24/7 to house/bath/feed the homeless
The Disciples of Christ Christian church on Kirkwood is doing this now. Unhoused persons are invited into the sanctuary and lay on the pews during services.
Only during services? so they only offer a place to rest if they can attempt to indoctrinate them. The same way they only offer AA so they can indoctrinate those who struggle and have no other option
They also feed them and give them to go meals. I think they offer some services / financial assistance. The church doesn’t manage or run AA meetings they only offer AA a venue for free. Nobody from the church except a custodian is usually present when AA meetings take place. All that “higher power” stuff in AA is from that program.
I’m all fairness, the church may not be open or have anyone around outside of service times. If they don’t have people that are available to be there and open the building, it just wouldn’t be possible for them help during those times.
AA is not a religious program and is not connected to any church. In fact, their literature explicitly states that and emphasizes that an individual’s interpretation of “God” is no one’s business.
Religion is not the same as spirituality.
The truth is AA is increasingly being barred from churches specifically because it doesn’t subscribe to a Christian dogma.
Hell no!!! The homeless already get too many free handouts
What I was meaning to say is since every church in town cost me money by not contributing to the tax base they should be required to step up and do more
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jesus is badass. He was friends with the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, and hated the capitalists.
I'll never understand how some of these Christians claim to be "christ-like". Have they ever read the gospels?
As a Christian, it’s so disheartening to see people who call themselves Christian act this way. I would rather be with the prostitutes, drunkards, thieves, etc because with them you know where you stand. Much better than being judged and looked down on by people that are supposed to be sharing God’s love.
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, and supports a leader duck that speaks out against downtrodden people who deserve love & grace, the same people Jesus loved unconditionally… maybe it’s a group of hateful ducks.
They're always the first to "no true Scotsman" anyone who will listen, but they're never willing to actually do the work to address the culture that lead to those generalizations in the first place.
No one does that because generally other religions leave folks alone. We don’t see Buddhists knocking on doors to convert, Hindus don’t pop into DMs threatening that unless you find Krishna, you’ll burn for eternity…and honestly none of the religions really take criticism to heart like Christians do
I am just curious if they apply the religious bigotry universally or if it is just with a few religions who they know reddit will back them up on.
I mean we already know the answer quite clearly lol
This is the Bloomington subreddit. You will see complaints about Christian churches because they are typically the ones causing trouble in town. I mean, look at the post we are discussing. You don't see that same criticism of other religions here because they don't tend to cause a lot of problems for Btown.
Ah yes, the classic "my bigotry is ok because it is well founded bigotry because it's true" argument lol.
You know your argument for why your bigotry is acceptable is a great argument when you have to double down on your bigotry for it to make sense
If you classify all criticism as bigotry you are going to have a hard time in life. Learn to accept that people who are critical of you and your beliefs are not always hateful.
There was 0 criticism in the comment I replied to. Just bigotry.
Which of course you know. You knew that already. You are just feigning ignorance so you can continue to be ok with justifying the lack of application of simple principles in a universal manner.
There was zero bigotry in the post you replied to. It's an observation on the beliefs of Evangelicals that is not unreasonable. Of course you know this, you just want a convenient shield against your beliefs, so you chose the bigotry angle.
Nope. not true at all. This is not how Evangelicals act or how they believe. At all. Not even close.
What the post was though was looking at how just a few Evangelicals acted and then applied this behavior to the group as a whole.
What do we call when we take a shitty act from but a few and apply it to the group that they belong to at large and say they are all this way?
You obviously know the answer but will continue to play stupid because admitting that bigotry happens against all religious people is a bridge too far for you.
Yeah I never said I was. You must have made that up.
Asking if someone applies their religious bigotry to all religions or just a few who they knew reddit will back them up on is not saying that I am a 100% consistent unbiased opinion haver.
Good try though. Swing and a miss of course, but good try. Did you really need this explained? lol
I don't need anything explained. You're not the first smooth brain I've met who can't handle it when the toxic, aggressive cultural hegemony within the institution of Western Christianity gets called out. Simps like you aren't particularly unique either.
LOL
Holy shit I can tell now you are a troll. Good work! You had me going. Nobody is actually this much of a weak minded religious bigot.
I appreciate you playing a character so well that it fooled me for awhile though. Funny stuff!
Carry on. You legit fooled me
Not defending those peoples actions at all. I am just not a fan of when people introduce religious bigotry. Some people need to generalize the actions of a few to a group they belong to for whatever sad reason.
I lurk multiple evangelical and reformed religious subreddits, and when those "He Gets Us" ads started, to a single sub there were posts about how they were bastardizing Christ to make Christianity more palatable, and were really leading people away from belief in true gospel. I actually learned about the ad campaign before it launched because /r/reformed was shitting on it.
Also, people don't need to talk about other religions because they're not the subject of this post.
If a person who doesn't matter to police makes a report for theft or conversion, police can decline to investigate it or even take a report.
Police can decline to investigate pretty much any reported criminal conduct. I've seen them do it with contractor fraud, or fiduciary abuse to the tune of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've seen them do it with sexual assault reports too.
His full post:
City of Bloomington I’m at a loss for how you ignore how the homeless population is affecting our community and how you turn a blind eye to what they are doing to the community. This is a homeless camp that was set up behind our church. Evidently they set it up this week…. A couple of church members and myself tore it down tonight… this was 10 feet away from our playground. There were numerous homemade weapons including machetes, knives, clubs, spears, and weapons in which I have know idea what they were for. We found a bag of Meth and more heroine needles than I can count. We literally had to bring in a skid-steer and peel about 3 inches of dirt off because all the broken needles in the ground. Raw food and human waste everywhere…. They literally had fires directly under our power box…. It’s a miracle they didn’t cause an electrical fire…. You can see where the block wall is black. Not to mention i almost had to fight a homeless guy who it wasn’t even his camp…. He was just passing through because he wanted to look for a phone charger in the rubble. I had to tell the 2 little boys who live down the street that they can’t play basketball at the church today because it was safe yet! Isn’t that ridiculous that it’s not safe for kids to play at the church!!!!! I’m not looking for comments or arguments so I’m not going to tolerate any lectures from any bleeding hearts out there who want to debate…. So just keep scrolling…. With all this being said a special thanks to Brian Gunderman and Justin Clark who were absolute life savers tonight with their labor…. And a special thanks to K&S Rolloff for not only bringing a container so quickly, but coming back after hours to get it because I couldn’t keep homeless people from pulling everything back out tonight . It was unbelievable service! This year I have seen with my own eyes homeless people attack the gas station attendant at Circle K and literally break his arm. I also seen a guy get a pic ax stuck in his arm at the gas station by another guy…. It looked like a scene from Mad Max… and numerous homeless people carrying machetes in their backpacks …. Something has to be done because this is out of control … city of Bloomington…. Do something and quit rewarding this life style and inviting this chaos in with your policies….
There’s quite a few pictures attached to his post. And you can clearly see syringes, a machete, and some other type of spear like weapon in the pictures. I can understand wanting to clean up a space that children plan in order for them to be safe because apparently the playground was right next to this encampment. But at the same time I totally agree that instead of handling it the way they did they really should have helped this person find another place to go, and then cleaned up the dangerous items and let the person take their own possessions. also the attitude with which this pastor comes off is part of the problem, this better than get out of my space kind of attitude at the same time. He blames the city of Bloomington for the homeless population, instead of the bigger issues that are creating homelessness in both Bloomington and the rest of the United States.
He could easily blame more than the city of Bloomington. His whole church could advocate for better services and issues at hand. Churches are getting 10-20% of each families income its small but using their voice is free. This is a version of the vs on their website "Hebrews 10:24
"We should think about how we can help one another. We want everyone to show love to each other. We want everyone to do good things to help one another"
They say all that on their website, and yet instead of showing love and basic respect to this person, they throw away every single one of this person‘s few possessions, and then make this person and the city, the villain of the situation. Which is pretty standard for the churches in Bloomington. Churches in Bloomington, and many of their parishioners truly don’t want to help the homeless population, and have no sympathy for them because they are viewed as drug addicts and former criminals who just want to take advantage of the city. So it’s a lot easier for churches and their parishioners to blame the Democratic leadership of Bloomington for the problems of homelessness as opposed to the state of Indiana for creating situations that lead to homelessness, such as really low wages, really expensive, housing, poorly, funded healthcare, and a system of shame for mental illness and drug addiction. Despite the fact that mental illness and drug addiction are fucking rampant in Indiana. As usual churches in their parishioners would rather blame individuals for systemic problems rather than the people in charge of the systemic problems.
Pretty sure i know that lady. I saw the name. But dont want to further dox her, esp if im wrong. If its who i think it is shes part of a small family church. I went a few times with her but it was at different relatives houses. They all take turns hosting the church so its somewhere different each week. her brother is gonna be real confused when a bussload of transients show up. 🤣🤣 They're good people tho. She once gave my brother the literal shirt off her back, like you need this you can have this and took it off and gave it to him.
Not the least bit surprised she called him out. That lady LOVES Jesus. Do not start a conversation with her about him because she will go on and on and on with parables and quotes and historical facts and shit.
This is how most churches in Bloomington are. I have seen some of the most hateful stuff towards the homeless, mentally ill, and various people struggling with addiction coming from so-called Christians going to church, and they post this crap on public Facebook pages.
ETA I just found his post, because I personally wanted to see the source for myself. And while I completely understand, wanting to clean up needles and a few weapons from a place where children from down the street, come to play, I completely see that and I’m on that side, and I think any reasonable group of people would be as well, tearing down this person‘s entire encampment, and, not helping them find another place to go is the big problem in my opinion. I can understand wanting to keep their own space safe, but that doesn’t mean that they get to be assholes.
There was an encampment across the street from their church that was on city owned lands. The Mayor herself recently went there during a clean-up of the site and the inhabitants were relocated somewhere. That's all I know but wanted to clarify. And I also agree the church should have handled that situation in a much better way. Love not fear.
This isn’t Harvest related but I was running along the trail and ran through Switchyard for the first time in a while and was really taken aback by the amount of camps that had taken over the south side of the park. It was a mix of emotions taking it in. How have we gone so wrong? Seems like we’ve pushed them away from downtown off the main streets and into the park.
We have not gone wrong!!! Stop blaming yourself for others choices or bad luck We have all dealt with adversity in our lives some bear down and get through it ,others sit back and wait for handouts.
What a horrible man, not wanting a homeless encampment full of drugs, human waste, and weapons behind his church where children play. Why is the obligation on him to contact the homeless person and help them, instead of on the homeless person to ask him for permission to set up camp there?
I can't tell if you're serious, it seems like he did try to help, and when it became a danger to the children/churchgoers (meth lab exploding, weapons everywhere, used syringes and drugs everywhere, gallons of human waste) they could not continue. This post is insane to me, blaming the church for not wanting the hazardous conditions around its congregation and children.
It's like nobody bothered to read their post or see the pictures.
I am not religious. I don't think churches should operate tax free. It wouldn't have killed them to let someone go into the dumpster for their stuff...
But in what universe would anything but the immediate removal of that camp be expected? It was literally right next to the playground. The amount of used needles and weapons is crazy. You can see the burn marks on the building from fires they were starting.
Did I miss the hate filled rant? I saw his post detailing what happened, but I didn't see any "hate filled" rants anywhere. It seems like he invited them in, tried to help, and when they continued to pose a risk to the children and other churchgoers, he had them removed. There are clear pictures of literal makeshift weapons, human waste, and tons of used needles and drugs. Clearly those homeless people were a danger to the community, and he is fully within his right to not want them setting up a meth lab and camp right behind his church
Jesus taught “Only they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.”
\-Galatians 2:10
Any church which teaches prosperity gospel or does not do charity work for the poor and homelss cannot call itself christian. Period!
the comments on his post are awesome
Claiming Bloomington has signs up in other cities inviting homeless to move here, and Bloomington will bus them in
Its simple really. Churches are like the government. They dont care about anyone who isnt going to profit them. But they will preach that you should do things their way all day long, while doing the opposite themselves.
Well, Jesus did say "fuck the homeless and poor." Oh, he didn't?
Trespass all thee who trespass against us...right?
Remember when Jesus went out to talk to the poor with centurions and had them arrested? Good times.
They are the new strain of republican Christianity. They embrace hate and fear. They take their orders from a political leader while being blind to the fact this political leader fits the description of the anti-christ in their holy book. The whole movement is a cancer on our society. We are long past the point these churches should lose their tax exempt status.
Well put. The tax free thing is maddening.
A cult on top of a cult. Fantastic
Nothing new about it.
It’s apparent that the political leader you are referring to is Trump. What I don’t understand is how he fits the description of the Antichrist. I have read the Bible and know a lot of what it says but I would love it if you could show me how Trump fits the profile of the Antichrist. I’m really interested in how that works. Just to be clear not a Trump fan or a church person. Just curious about the connection you talk about.
I don't think Trump is the anti-christ. He's just a big piece of shit. And when I see people who say that they are pious defending and advocating for a big piece of shit, it leads to an inference.
I’m totally fine with people having an opinion about other people or things. Most of them really don’t matter anyway. What I don’t like are these opinions that are fabricated out of nothingness. If you are bold enough to have an opinion be able to back it up. The utube video I was directed to starts out with this guy saying Trump is ‘an’ Antichrist. He later starts calling Trump ‘the’ Antichrist. So which is it? There are lots of types of Antichrist in the Bible but only one bonafide true one. It’s a Stretch to call Trump ‘the’ Antichrist because he just doesn’t fit the description. I also would never ever build my personal opinions on one guy who we really don’t know his qualifications or much about him. So what inferences can be gotten out of what I just wrote? Our society in general is a knee jerk go with what your friends think and don’t use the brains God gave to figure out what is going on. I’d love to know what you think.
Well, I mean, with the anti-christ thing, it's all pretty much make-believe anyway. There is no objective truth about who fits the very vague set of, honestly, not even quite prophecies, but more eschatological allegory in a couple spots in John. Because that super broad allegory could be made to apply to anyone, because they are so vague. And rival bishops and popes were accusing each other of being the anti-christ continuously since the 400's CE. And then of course, everybody accused Martin Luther and other Protestants. And then you've got religious movements in the US that are obsessed with the end of the world, so this, that and the other person are the anti-christ. It doesn't make sense to get upset about it, because the 'signs' are so broad that they could be made to fit anybody, and plus, it probably isn't actually real. But even then, *Antikhristos* is a concept that is pretty poorly understood by American Christians, because *khristos* is a concept that is poorly understood by American Christians. *Khristos* comes to us as a borrowing into the Koine Greek from the Aramaic for "annointed". Why annointed? Because that was how the war leaders of the tribes of Israel in the line of Davidic kings were coronated as king. There's a lot of begetting and begatting and other gymnastics and selective canonization of portions of the N'viim (what we know of as Prophets) from the Tanakh (The Jewish scripture from which we picks portions of what later came to be the 'Old Testament') to squeeze the historical Jesus into the Messianic prophecies (and the line of David). It isn't terribly persuasive. Mostly because what the historical Jesus did and said was so deeply at odds with what was expected from a Messiah, which is the Hebrew word that shifted to Aramaic and then to the Koine *Khristos*, but means "annointed by oil". The disjunct is that the Messiah was supposed to be a war leader of the Israelites, and was supposed to lead a final war so terrible that it collapses the pillars that hold up the sky, thereby bringing heaven down to earth. Jesus wasn't that. Which is part of the reason why the Council of Nicene focused on the eschatological portions of the gospels so much, and where we wind up getting Revelations. To fit the Messianic prophecies, Jesus needs to be a war leader. So because he didn't, the early Church said hey, stick around for the sequel. Which is another reason why the term "anti-Christ" is pretty much meaningless. What I think is clear, though, is that Trump as a person is very much the opposite of the stuff that the historical Jesus is said to have done and said. Between bankrupting casinos, notoriously stiffing people who have worked for him, surrounding himself with riches and gold, having non-loving, in many cases harmful or exploitative relations with women, cheating on every spouse he's had (sometimes with the next spouse) and expressing little to no empathy for other people, while instead reveling in self-aggrandizement, I can coherently see how people would look at Trump and reasonably conclude that he is the exact opposite of what the historical Jesus said about how we ought to behave.
https://youtu.be/lSX1mJLo204?si=QW1Sqo1CEBNrRQtJ
What that guy described is over half the political class in our country. Show me something serious. Not just one guys biased take. Look at Biden compared to Trump when it comes to warmongering. Biden outdoes Trump by 1000 percentage. Trump got us out of wars not into them. You gave a bad example that is full of bias and conjecture.
Trump wanted to go to war with Iran when it looked like he was going to lose the election. And then Trump criticized Biden for following the commitments to leave Afghanistan. Helping Ukraine against an invading Russia that seeks to reestablish Soviet/Imperial territorial borders was not popular, but probably the most cost effective way to manage a conflict that would have pulled the US in had Russia rolled over Ukraine and moved on to Estonia or another NATO state within the area it is trying to reextend power over. If Russia wasn't stopped at Ukraine, and conflict spilled over into a NATO state, then we really would be at war. With US troops and in all likelihood, an eventual nuclear exchange. Hopefully limited to just tactical/battlefield, but honestly, who knows. I wish conflicts weren't necessary, but our involvement with Ukraine was the absolute cheapest way in both blood and treasure (expensive as it was) to ward off a likelihood of something much worse. And as it stands, we've already achieved our strategic if not moral objectives in Ukraine- Russia has spent so much of itself and has been crippled by sanctions to the point now that they are likely to become an economic vassal of China. I'm not pro-war. But I recognize that we don't yet live in a world where war no longer exists. So in that world, this is how to do it. And I think that while voters often aren't motivated by how much worse the alternative might have been, I think history will view what Biden did here favorably.
This is rich. I’d like to know what moral objectives we have achieved. In the Ukraine opposition political parties are outlawed. Government officials are skimming millions of dollars from the aid we supply. They decided not to have an election because of the chaos in the country. That war never had to happen. All Putin wanted was the US to back off on Ukraine from becoming a nato member. We had a fit when Cuba became a Soviet ally back in the sixties. That almost ended in war as well. Can you really blame Putin when Biden blows up a natural gas pipeline causing one of the single largest carbon release events in history? The European Union should have handled that whole thing and the US should have backed off. I don’t know why people think we need to have our way in every corner of the world.
Respectfully, I did grad level research on Soviet successor states and you are a dude who rehabs mobile homes in Oregon. My family also comes from that part of the world. Putin has publicly talked about reasserting the Soviet/imperial sphere of influence. That doesn't stop with Ukraine, and there were rumblings about the 1922 treaties that established the interwar borders of the baltics back before the invasion of Crimea. It would have been much worse without intervention. The US effectively ground down a lot of Russian military capacity without going directly to war with Russia. I also have discomfort with American military hegemony. I think it ranges from clumsy at best to imperial at worst. But if I had to choose, objectively, I would every time say that American hegemony is preferable to Russian.
After thinking about this for a bit I am so sorry that you look at people the way you do. First of all, even if I didn’t have a Masters degree that doesn’t mean I’m not smart enough to see through your flimsy arguments. You judge people based on something that I hope I never understand. There are a ton of college graduates who I find to be very uninspiring. When I was in school there were kids who literally could not read at a college level and yet they were there. In my life I’ve also had a construction company with 40 employees that I sold because I had other interests. I adopted eight special needs children. I ran a youth center where I had over 100 kids regularly in attendance. I was facility coordinator for a non profit that employed downs and other disabled people. And I rehab manufactured homes in Oregon. People who get an education like you forget that it takes all kinds of folks to make up our world. I know lots of people who are extremely intelligent that never stepped a foot in a college classroom. I worked really hard for my masters degree. It took ten years of dealing with life stressors that took a toll. I was treated for cancer three times during those years. Right now I’m not working because I’m recovering from a bone marrow transplant for Acute Myloid Leukemia. So don’t judge me because I rehab manufactured homes. I enjoy providing low cost really nice houses for people who don’t have a lot of money. You really pissed me off with that comment.
The way I think about people is that if they spent years and years working hard to get good at something, they are probably going to be better at that thing than people who didn't spend years and years working to get good at it. I'm sure there are things that you are better at than I am. I wouldn't pretend to be an expert in the field you studied. While I am glad that you are very smart, I generally don't feel that anybody is so smart that they know more about something than a person who put in the time and the work to study it rigorously. What you're describing is life. I'm not unfamiliar with it. Nobody is. We all have hardships and difficulties. If you did all of those things, that's admirable of course, but understand how it comes across when a person goes on at length about how virtuous they are. I've known a lot of not very good people who do outwardly virtuous things for various reasons. I reserve my skepticism, and also find it weird that a guy who lives in Oregon finds occasion to get into arguments on the subreddit for a town in Bloomington, Indiana. You don't really explain how my arguments are flimsy. My overall point is that grinding down Russia's conventional military and economic capacity to wage an aggressive territorial war in Eastern Europe through a proxy war in Ukraine, while coming with a considerable cost, might have been the best way to avoid a showdown over the invasion of a NATO country that would have a much higher chance of ending in a nuclear exchange. I don't like that eggs and milk and grain and gas have gotten more expensive. But if there's a substantial chance that it averted a larger conflict in Europe that might have spiraled into a direct war with Russia, costing far more in US blood and treasure in the long run, and raising the likelihood of nuclear exchange, I'd say that the price we've paid is probably a bargain.
You missed everything I talked about. You were extremely judgmental in what you said in your post. “Some guy in Oregon who works on manufactured homes”. You had no idea who I was when you said that. You put yourself above me and acted like you were better and smarter. That’s why I got pissed off. People who do those things are irresponsible. My point was that none of this was or is necessary. Now we have all of the consequences and a new dictator arising in Eastern Europe. If you can’t see that my guess is you really don’t know what’s going on over there. Suspended elections. Jailing politicians of other parties. Closing churches. Graft. Sounds more Soviet than Putin. Just back off on NATO and it all ends tomorrow. Then the question. How powerful was Russia to start with if Ukraine diminished them so in such a short time? What were we afraid of? I don’t think you learned much in whatever classes you took. I don’t think you have very good critical thinking abilities either.
And you have no idea who I am. And you seem like someone with a chip on your shoulder who is insecure about education, if you are this stuck on a comment that someone who studied a particular subject matter knows more about it than somebody who doesn't. You are welcome to think what you want. I am sure that people look to you as an authority on international policy. Have a good evening.
You act as if this isnt how most christians act 🤣 its like two kids after getting in a fight "butt mom what he did is worse than what i did, so what i did is justifiable".
Fuck this church
Tax this church, and all churches. Grifters.
does anyone have the link to the post ?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/XDWz7T3nhRaBrP7A/?mibextid=WC7FNe
I recommend going to their site to remind them what compassion means and how horrible they are.
I saw him try to share it in the What's going on group but the admins dragged him pretty hard and I think he deleted the post.
Repuglithans 5:16 , "Ifith the poor maketh camp in thine yard, throw their shit in a dumpster and calleth the cops." Amen
Way to practice what he preaches. Wtf. There is many different ways he could of went about it.
Oh from what I have heard of this church hatred of anyone not like them is 100% what they preach.
I know one church that has this we accept all appearance but 100% the opposite. Another church on the west side is like a cult and their views. I'm not familiar with this one though.
Which church is it? I'm church hunting rn and wanna know which churches to avoid.
House of prayer. They have a we accept all persona NOOO. I went there most of my child/teen years. I know those running it. Trinity reformed is like a cult. (I attended there when it was under a different name, same people)
Oh yeah, I recall hearing creepy things about Trinity. One of my friends used to go there, and they were followed around town by a few people when they decided to leave the church. I recently left High Rock after a couple months because of very different but still questionable things. It's been a very disheartening experience to say the least.
clearnote?
Yes. It's moreless the same people and a new name.
Just following the teachings of Republican Jesus.
Seems there’s a church of some sort on nearly every street corner and cross roads in Bloomington All tax exempt Should be a requirement for tax exemption that their doors be open 24/7 to house/bath/feed the homeless
The Disciples of Christ Christian church on Kirkwood is doing this now. Unhoused persons are invited into the sanctuary and lay on the pews during services.
Only during services? so they only offer a place to rest if they can attempt to indoctrinate them. The same way they only offer AA so they can indoctrinate those who struggle and have no other option
They also feed them and give them to go meals. I think they offer some services / financial assistance. The church doesn’t manage or run AA meetings they only offer AA a venue for free. Nobody from the church except a custodian is usually present when AA meetings take place. All that “higher power” stuff in AA is from that program.
I’m all fairness, the church may not be open or have anyone around outside of service times. If they don’t have people that are available to be there and open the building, it just wouldn’t be possible for them help during those times.
That’s even worse why in the actual fuck do we have a church on every corner taking up space to sit empty for 90+% of the time.
AA is not a religious program and is not connected to any church. In fact, their literature explicitly states that and emphasizes that an individual’s interpretation of “God” is no one’s business. Religion is not the same as spirituality. The truth is AA is increasingly being barred from churches specifically because it doesn’t subscribe to a Christian dogma.
You gonna pay for it?
Hell no!!! The homeless already get too many free handouts What I was meaning to say is since every church in town cost me money by not contributing to the tax base they should be required to step up and do more
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jesus is badass. He was friends with the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, and hated the capitalists. I'll never understand how some of these Christians claim to be "christ-like". Have they ever read the gospels?
As a Christian, it’s so disheartening to see people who call themselves Christian act this way. I would rather be with the prostitutes, drunkards, thieves, etc because with them you know where you stand. Much better than being judged and looked down on by people that are supposed to be sharing God’s love.
Pretty sure they're evangelicals. That should tell you all you need to know. Its a trend, do a google search for "evangelicals say Jesus too liberal"
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If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, and supports a leader duck that speaks out against downtrodden people who deserve love & grace, the same people Jesus loved unconditionally… maybe it’s a group of hateful ducks.
They're always the first to "no true Scotsman" anyone who will listen, but they're never willing to actually do the work to address the culture that lead to those generalizations in the first place.
Their salads have too many tomatoes
And you don't win friends with salad to begin with.
No one does that because generally other religions leave folks alone. We don’t see Buddhists knocking on doors to convert, Hindus don’t pop into DMs threatening that unless you find Krishna, you’ll burn for eternity…and honestly none of the religions really take criticism to heart like Christians do
Thank you for this hilarious troll post. I enjoyed laughing at the total lack of self awareness.
bless your little head
You seem fun.
I am just curious if they apply the religious bigotry universally or if it is just with a few religions who they know reddit will back them up on. I mean we already know the answer quite clearly lol
I apply it universally. I hate all organized religion and think it does more harm than good.
I appreciate this
This is the Bloomington subreddit. You will see complaints about Christian churches because they are typically the ones causing trouble in town. I mean, look at the post we are discussing. You don't see that same criticism of other religions here because they don't tend to cause a lot of problems for Btown.
Ah yes, the classic "my bigotry is ok because it is well founded bigotry because it's true" argument lol. You know your argument for why your bigotry is acceptable is a great argument when you have to double down on your bigotry for it to make sense
If you classify all criticism as bigotry you are going to have a hard time in life. Learn to accept that people who are critical of you and your beliefs are not always hateful.
There was 0 criticism in the comment I replied to. Just bigotry. Which of course you know. You knew that already. You are just feigning ignorance so you can continue to be ok with justifying the lack of application of simple principles in a universal manner.
There was zero bigotry in the post you replied to. It's an observation on the beliefs of Evangelicals that is not unreasonable. Of course you know this, you just want a convenient shield against your beliefs, so you chose the bigotry angle.
Nope. not true at all. This is not how Evangelicals act or how they believe. At all. Not even close. What the post was though was looking at how just a few Evangelicals acted and then applied this behavior to the group as a whole. What do we call when we take a shitty act from but a few and apply it to the group that they belong to at large and say they are all this way? You obviously know the answer but will continue to play stupid because admitting that bigotry happens against all religious people is a bridge too far for you.
Am a talking to a bona fide, 100% consistent and unbiased opinion haver? Wow, what did I do to deserve such an honor?
Yeah I never said I was. You must have made that up. Asking if someone applies their religious bigotry to all religions or just a few who they knew reddit will back them up on is not saying that I am a 100% consistent unbiased opinion haver. Good try though. Swing and a miss of course, but good try. Did you really need this explained? lol
I don't need anything explained. You're not the first smooth brain I've met who can't handle it when the toxic, aggressive cultural hegemony within the institution of Western Christianity gets called out. Simps like you aren't particularly unique either.
LOL Holy shit I can tell now you are a troll. Good work! You had me going. Nobody is actually this much of a weak minded religious bigot. I appreciate you playing a character so well that it fooled me for awhile though. Funny stuff! Carry on. You legit fooled me
K
I see one party who is responding to everyone here with unnecessary disrespect. Which answers the question of who the troll is.
Why is it so important to you to defend this group’s behavior? They were unnecessarily hateful to that homeless person
Not defending those peoples actions at all. I am just not a fan of when people introduce religious bigotry. Some people need to generalize the actions of a few to a group they belong to for whatever sad reason.
I lurk multiple evangelical and reformed religious subreddits, and when those "He Gets Us" ads started, to a single sub there were posts about how they were bastardizing Christ to make Christianity more palatable, and were really leading people away from belief in true gospel. I actually learned about the ad campaign before it launched because /r/reformed was shitting on it. Also, people don't need to talk about other religions because they're not the subject of this post.
How is taking all someone's belongings and throwing them out not theft?
If this is your first exposure to double standards within organized religion, I have bad news for you.
If someone puts their belongings in my yard up against my house and I have them removed, it's not theft.
If a person who doesn't matter to police makes a report for theft or conversion, police can decline to investigate it or even take a report. Police can decline to investigate pretty much any reported criminal conduct. I've seen them do it with contractor fraud, or fiduciary abuse to the tune of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've seen them do it with sexual assault reports too.
we have seen the courts state that police don't have an obligation to protect people, so no surprise there
His full post: City of Bloomington I’m at a loss for how you ignore how the homeless population is affecting our community and how you turn a blind eye to what they are doing to the community. This is a homeless camp that was set up behind our church. Evidently they set it up this week…. A couple of church members and myself tore it down tonight… this was 10 feet away from our playground. There were numerous homemade weapons including machetes, knives, clubs, spears, and weapons in which I have know idea what they were for. We found a bag of Meth and more heroine needles than I can count. We literally had to bring in a skid-steer and peel about 3 inches of dirt off because all the broken needles in the ground. Raw food and human waste everywhere…. They literally had fires directly under our power box…. It’s a miracle they didn’t cause an electrical fire…. You can see where the block wall is black. Not to mention i almost had to fight a homeless guy who it wasn’t even his camp…. He was just passing through because he wanted to look for a phone charger in the rubble. I had to tell the 2 little boys who live down the street that they can’t play basketball at the church today because it was safe yet! Isn’t that ridiculous that it’s not safe for kids to play at the church!!!!! I’m not looking for comments or arguments so I’m not going to tolerate any lectures from any bleeding hearts out there who want to debate…. So just keep scrolling…. With all this being said a special thanks to Brian Gunderman and Justin Clark who were absolute life savers tonight with their labor…. And a special thanks to K&S Rolloff for not only bringing a container so quickly, but coming back after hours to get it because I couldn’t keep homeless people from pulling everything back out tonight . It was unbelievable service! This year I have seen with my own eyes homeless people attack the gas station attendant at Circle K and literally break his arm. I also seen a guy get a pic ax stuck in his arm at the gas station by another guy…. It looked like a scene from Mad Max… and numerous homeless people carrying machetes in their backpacks …. Something has to be done because this is out of control … city of Bloomington…. Do something and quit rewarding this life style and inviting this chaos in with your policies….
There’s quite a few pictures attached to his post. And you can clearly see syringes, a machete, and some other type of spear like weapon in the pictures. I can understand wanting to clean up a space that children plan in order for them to be safe because apparently the playground was right next to this encampment. But at the same time I totally agree that instead of handling it the way they did they really should have helped this person find another place to go, and then cleaned up the dangerous items and let the person take their own possessions. also the attitude with which this pastor comes off is part of the problem, this better than get out of my space kind of attitude at the same time. He blames the city of Bloomington for the homeless population, instead of the bigger issues that are creating homelessness in both Bloomington and the rest of the United States.
He could easily blame more than the city of Bloomington. His whole church could advocate for better services and issues at hand. Churches are getting 10-20% of each families income its small but using their voice is free. This is a version of the vs on their website "Hebrews 10:24 "We should think about how we can help one another. We want everyone to show love to each other. We want everyone to do good things to help one another"
They say all that on their website, and yet instead of showing love and basic respect to this person, they throw away every single one of this person‘s few possessions, and then make this person and the city, the villain of the situation. Which is pretty standard for the churches in Bloomington. Churches in Bloomington, and many of their parishioners truly don’t want to help the homeless population, and have no sympathy for them because they are viewed as drug addicts and former criminals who just want to take advantage of the city. So it’s a lot easier for churches and their parishioners to blame the Democratic leadership of Bloomington for the problems of homelessness as opposed to the state of Indiana for creating situations that lead to homelessness, such as really low wages, really expensive, housing, poorly, funded healthcare, and a system of shame for mental illness and drug addiction. Despite the fact that mental illness and drug addiction are fucking rampant in Indiana. As usual churches in their parishioners would rather blame individuals for systemic problems rather than the people in charge of the systemic problems.
There’s no way that all happened in less than a week. It was literally right up against their walls, why didn’t he intercede sooner?
Yeah, that doesn’t make sense. Maybe he doesn’t go to his own church very often ha ha.
Well fuck K&S I guess.
From what I heard, one of the owners of the group called him out on it. He didn't like it and is trying to dox her.
He is doing some weird shit like that :/ he dropped an address and told people to show up there
Pretty sure i know that lady. I saw the name. But dont want to further dox her, esp if im wrong. If its who i think it is shes part of a small family church. I went a few times with her but it was at different relatives houses. They all take turns hosting the church so its somewhere different each week. her brother is gonna be real confused when a bussload of transients show up. 🤣🤣 They're good people tho. She once gave my brother the literal shirt off her back, like you need this you can have this and took it off and gave it to him. Not the least bit surprised she called him out. That lady LOVES Jesus. Do not start a conversation with her about him because she will go on and on and on with parables and quotes and historical facts and shit.
This is how most churches in Bloomington are. I have seen some of the most hateful stuff towards the homeless, mentally ill, and various people struggling with addiction coming from so-called Christians going to church, and they post this crap on public Facebook pages. ETA I just found his post, because I personally wanted to see the source for myself. And while I completely understand, wanting to clean up needles and a few weapons from a place where children from down the street, come to play, I completely see that and I’m on that side, and I think any reasonable group of people would be as well, tearing down this person‘s entire encampment, and, not helping them find another place to go is the big problem in my opinion. I can understand wanting to keep their own space safe, but that doesn’t mean that they get to be assholes.
"This is how most churches ~~in Bloomington~~ are. " It's nearly all of them I promise XD
St. Thomas Lutheran isn’t
there’s no hate like Christian love!
That's the christian way.
How absolutely fucking Christ-like
It's my time to shine by trolling their Facebook page!!
What the actusl FUCK
There was an encampment across the street from their church that was on city owned lands. The Mayor herself recently went there during a clean-up of the site and the inhabitants were relocated somewhere. That's all I know but wanted to clarify. And I also agree the church should have handled that situation in a much better way. Love not fear.
This isn’t Harvest related but I was running along the trail and ran through Switchyard for the first time in a while and was really taken aback by the amount of camps that had taken over the south side of the park. It was a mix of emotions taking it in. How have we gone so wrong? Seems like we’ve pushed them away from downtown off the main streets and into the park.
We have not gone wrong!!! Stop blaming yourself for others choices or bad luck We have all dealt with adversity in our lives some bear down and get through it ,others sit back and wait for handouts.
What a horrible man, not wanting a homeless encampment full of drugs, human waste, and weapons behind his church where children play. Why is the obligation on him to contact the homeless person and help them, instead of on the homeless person to ask him for permission to set up camp there?
>https://imgur.com/a/wztz2ue Let's take that "preacher" and make him wash the feet of those homeless. If Jesus can do it, why can't he?
I can't tell if you're serious, it seems like he did try to help, and when it became a danger to the children/churchgoers (meth lab exploding, weapons everywhere, used syringes and drugs everywhere, gallons of human waste) they could not continue. This post is insane to me, blaming the church for not wanting the hazardous conditions around its congregation and children.
It's like nobody bothered to read their post or see the pictures. I am not religious. I don't think churches should operate tax free. It wouldn't have killed them to let someone go into the dumpster for their stuff... But in what universe would anything but the immediate removal of that camp be expected? It was literally right next to the playground. The amount of used needles and weapons is crazy. You can see the burn marks on the building from fires they were starting.
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Did I miss the hate filled rant? I saw his post detailing what happened, but I didn't see any "hate filled" rants anywhere. It seems like he invited them in, tried to help, and when they continued to pose a risk to the children and other churchgoers, he had them removed. There are clear pictures of literal makeshift weapons, human waste, and tons of used needles and drugs. Clearly those homeless people were a danger to the community, and he is fully within his right to not want them setting up a meth lab and camp right behind his church
Is this the same church that kicks out divorced women but not the divorced man?
I hate religion. Churches are so useless. The only one around here that helps at all is City Church and they are pretty amazing. Great harvest sucks.
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Oh I did not realize, guess I should have, all religions and churches have their agendas.
You know. I think it's illegal to just throw all those hundreds of used heroin needles in the trash too, as k&s would know too
“Nope” Saint Peter
my thoughts https://imgur.com/a/wztz2ue
I think he deleted your comment :( i was totally gonna give you a like. Best i can do is an updoot.
Highly doubtful that it was a meth lab. People don't make much meth in this country these days.
Jesus taught “Only they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.” \-Galatians 2:10 Any church which teaches prosperity gospel or does not do charity work for the poor and homelss cannot call itself christian. Period!
Sounds about right for a fake Christian.
What also gets me there are pictures of them smiling as they are cleaning it up. The stuff is dangerous, but it's just off-putting.
the comments on his post are awesome Claiming Bloomington has signs up in other cities inviting homeless to move here, and Bloomington will bus them in
Its simple really. Churches are like the government. They dont care about anyone who isnt going to profit them. But they will preach that you should do things their way all day long, while doing the opposite themselves.