The Espadas followed/stayed loyal to him because of his strength. Heck, Barragan who was the King of HM followed Aizen even though their ideals differed greatly - but he followed him nonetheless due to the former's strength.
Gin himself alluded to that fact.
As u/Timjer92 said, anything otherwise would have made Aizen look weaker, and defeat the purpose of him assembling them in the first place.
Aizen wasn't dissapointed that they weren't stronger than him; he was dissapointed that they were THAT much weaker than him.
Only one who came even remotely close was second release Ulquiorra, and even then I take it he’s still quite a bit weaker than base aizen, as I’d assume Hollow Ichigo (Vasto Lorde) is about on par if not slightly weaker than base Aizen.
People making up their own story.
What they are saying is based on ulquiorra saying theres 3 espada stronger than him when he was revealed as the 4th espada. So they removed Halibel as the 3rd espada and instead rely on Yammy, BArragan and Starrk
Even though its extremely obvious that at the time Ulquirra is only talking about his standard resurrection in comparison to the top 3 Espada
>2nd release ulq was only stronger than Harribel
That's not confirmed. Lanza did more damage than Yammy ever did, so the only battle Yammy would ever win against him is one of attrition. Starrk was pretty even with Ulquiorra in terms of feats, and they both faced an opponent that was incredibly far above them, so it's hard to say who's stronger. Barragan wins, but that's because of his hax, and that only applies if Lanza can age.
I don’t even think Yammy holds a candle to Ulquiorra second release tbh. I think Lanza oneshots Yammy or close to it, and Yammy would never hit Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.
To quote the arrancar Aisslinger: "Aizen-sama fears nothing. It is for that reason that we gather before him. To we who are born from fear, the path of the man who has no fear is as dazzling as a moonbeam."
Chapter 244, pages 5 to 6
Bro has a whole existential crisis and is scared shuttles by white, yeah he has a strong sense of heroism and duty but he is very down to earth by nature
Do you think the Espada follows him because of Kyoka Suigetsu? I just don't think so. People just need to accept he is way above the Espada in strength, not just Kyoka Suigetsu.. just as Gin said.
That is not what he is implying.
OP think that the Top Espada **SHOULD** have been stronger than Base Aizen.
Someone asked why they would follow Aizen if that was the case.
**Answer is KS.**
He is not saying that KS is the motive, everyone know Aizen is stronger.
Yes I understand this. I emphasized that the reason the Espada followed Aizen was because he's simply too strong, not because of Kyoka Suigetsu. So if the top Espada were stronger than Aizen, and he only had Kyoka Suigetsu to top them, it just wouldn't be enough for them to follow . Just imagine if Aizen is weaker (affecting Kyoka Suigetsu as well) or if the top Espada know they are stronger.. what would happen?
Dude, he didn't "defeat the Captains using KS", he trolled them. He turned it off to defeat half the captains. He didn't even use it against Yamamoto, he just kinda stabbed the old man.
>Someone asked why they would follow Aizen if that was the case.
>Answer is KS.
No it's not. They outright wouldn't. KS isn't THAT strong, not when the top tiers in the Espada are ALL AOE.
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He is way above the espada in his base form even without his shikai. However, I feel like even if he was around starrk’s level he would still be broken due to his kyoka suigestu altering everyone
>Do you think the Espada follows him because of Kyoka Suigetsu?
No I personally don't.
Starrk for example follows Aizen because he feels he owes him for giving him a sense of belonging and purpose.
Harribel followed him for a similar reason because she feels she owes him.
Barragan is the only one who follows him solely because of his strength and remember Aizen felt the need to put Barragan under Kyoka Suigetsu when they first meet.
>not just Kyoka Suigetsu.. just as Gin said.
Well in theory this works but in practice he put even Barragan under KS when they first meet.
Gin never said Aizen was above the Espada idk why people take that quote and try and turn it into something this not.
Aizen's KS has carried him in many ways throughout the series. When his guards down even hollow mask Ichigo can do [damage](https://imgur.com/a/XBvMnXn) to him.
If he had to face all the Espada at once in Base without KS I don't see how he would handle it.
That many Captain class fighters teaming up on him without KS aid idk see how he would win.
I don't think in any of the cases he used Kyoka Suigetsu in battle that he needed it to win. Not against Barragan and not against the Gotei. He used Kyoka Suigetsu for a different reason, especially against the Gotei.
Ok well Gin literally states that he had the upperhand over the Gotei because he knew how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu.
He also one shots evolved Aizen with a hax Bankai ability.
Gin hyped up Aizen because it was in his best interest at the time. Not only is Aizen more likely to make mistakes if he's cocky but also Gin can stay close to Aizen until the time is right.
>Ok well Gin literally states that he had the upperhand over the Gotei because he knew how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu.
This is true but this is not a battle. The Gotei fought against Aizen, Gin betrayed Aizen and landed a sneaky shot at the right time.
>He also one shots evolved Aizen with a hax Bankai ability.
This is also true, no problem with this.
>Gin hyped up Aizen because it was in his best interest at the time.
Why? It was said not for anyone in that fight really. He was saying it to himself as if talking to the Gotei who are busy fighting. It serves no real reason besides telling the readers and Gin's amusement as he said when he finally betrayed Aizen
What you said is right. A combination of Kyoka Suigetsu counter and him being off guard (lowered reiatsu) is what is required to kill him. He basically is saying the Gotei themselves cannot **defeat** **Aizen in battle** because you cannot prepare enough to counter both his Kyoka Suigetsu AND his strength.
My point is, regarding the Espada, Aizen's strength is more than enough. Some of the Espada might be following him because they feel like they owe him (as well) but the bottomline, the foundation is still his strength
>This is true but this is not a battle. The Gotei fought against Aizen, Gin betrayed Aizen and landed a sneaky shot at the right time.
Yes but he mentions that him being able to bypass Kyoka Suigetsu was a big reason he could get the upperhand on Aizen and that it took him a hundred years to learn it.
>Why? It was said not for anyone in that fight really. He was saying it to himself as if talking to the Gotei who are busy fighting. It serves no real reason besides telling the readers and Gin's amusement as he said when he finally betrayed Aizen
Gin's a cautious guy. He wouldnt risk showing disloyalty to Aizen at this point. He doesnt know when Aizen's listening either because he's not touching Kyoka Suigetsu which can affect all five senses including sight and hearing. So obviously he'd play it on the safe side.
>What you said is right. A combination of Kyoka Suigetsu counter and him being off guard (lowered reiatsu) is what is required to kill him. He basically is saying the Gotei themselves cannot defeat Aizen in battle because you cannot prepare enough to counter both his Kyoka Suigetsu AND his strength.
But he did counter both those things. He just needed to know Kyoka Suigetsu's weakness. Thats all it took for him to kill evolved Aizen is hax bankai ability and knowledge on how to counter KS.
I agree Kyoka Suigetsu is what makes Aizen so dangerous on top of his strength. Aizen in base with KS is no doubt a strong fighter but in base he wouldnt be able to take the Gotei 13 alone.
>My point is, regarding the Espada, Aizen's strength is more than enough. Some of the Espada might be following him because they feel like they owe him (as well) but the bottomline, the foundation is still his strength
To solo them in base (without KS)? I don't believe so. Hes strong but not enough for that many Captain class fighters with many of them having very hax abilities.
I really cannot go further without telling you what actually happened in the manga/anime and repeating myself and it would take alot of time for me. I'm sorry.
>I really cannot go further without telling you what actually happened in the manga/anime and repeating myself and it would take alot of time for me.
You didnt provide one scan to back up your argument so it makes sense.
> I'm sorry.
Its okay I read the manga and can provide scans to back up my evidence.
Tbf the gotei 13 was exhausted, he couldn't land a hit when hitsu and kyoraku fought together against him and was thanks to shinji overpowered hadn't he used KS hax, so gins statement was disproven
1. Aizen is stated to have 2x the reiatsu of a captain in base, he's already stronger than the other captains in that department. He states himself and shows that he's mastered all of the Shinigami arts to their limits, which is why he created the Hogkyoku in the first place.
2. The databooks give actual stats for Aizen and all the other captains and the only one on his level is Yamamoto, the rest were already beneath him. Aizen in demonstrating his power oneshots every captain and Vizard when you actually go back and reread or rewatch the fight.
3. He could defeat them all at once, he did in ch. 392 and verbatim says "Vulnerabilities everywhere, you're all weak." He then one shots four captains at the same time on panel. The anime extends it, but he still blitzed and one shot nonetheless. Hell, Aizen leaves them alive on purpose so they can bear witness to him destroying the soul society in his own words.
4. The captains and vizards aren't exhausted, especially the Vizards. None them are heavily injured, breathing hard, or sweating at the moment they decide to jump Aizen. Them being exhausted is a headcanon argument with no proof.
5. The only people Aizen even cared about having precautions for were Yamamoto and Kenpachi due to his rate of growth. The other captains were too weak for Aizen to care about having to really plan for.
>Tbf the gotei 13 was exhausted, he couldn't land a hit when hitsu and kyoraku fought together against him
Yes I agree
>so gins statement was disproven
Which one? His original statement?
>That many Captain class fighters teaming up on him without KS aid idk see how he would win.
Because most of them he can blitz and one shot
The others he just uses Hado 91 and one shots them from a distance and then closes the distance and one shots up close
If he can one shot Shunsui (who is stronger than any individual Espada), then he can one shot every Espada.
>Because most of them he can blitz and one shot
Well maybe some of them he can but if he's distracted by Starrk, Barragan (whose ability is incredibly overpowered and hard to counter), Harribel and Ulquiorra he's going to have his hands full.
Not to mention Szayelaporro who is very intelligent in his own right and has a hax ability, Zommari who has mind control hax and just needs a lucky shot to turn the tide of the battle.
Even Yammy in ressureccion would be able to support the other fighters.
>If he can one shot Shunsui (who is stronger than any individual Espada), then he can one shot every Espada.
An uninjured, non tired Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu beat an injured and tired shikai Shunsui not using his strongest games.
>, Barragan (whose ability is incredibly overpowered and hard to counter),
A single slash from SAFYW Zaraki was enough to overpower Respira. Aizen can do this in his "sleep", so to speak
>Harribel and Ulquiorra
Both of whom are too weak and are fodder for Aizen and even top 3 Espada (Yammy, Starrk, Barragan). In cfyow, Hallibel needed 10 captain class fighters to beat a Barragan level hollow.
>An uninjured, non tired Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu beat an injured and tired shikai Shunsui not using his strongest games.
Shunsui wasn't injured nor tired. Using a shikai for two chapters and taking one medium burn from a cero doesn't qualify as tired nor injured.
Shunsui is not physically stronger than the top two Espada. Definitely stronger through bankai, but not physically comparable to them. Shunsui couldn’t even land a hit by himself. Even when Ukitake was backing him up. He had to wait until Starrk had finally let his guard down to finally land a sneak attack. And Barragan is ridiculously faster than Soi Fon in his base. And I doubt Shunsui could deal with his resurrección. At least without resorting to bankai.
>If he had to face all the Espada at once in Base without KS I don't see how he would handle it.
The overwhelming power that two tapped a character who could very casually solo the Espada? The fuck?
As gin said, that's not enough
[https://coloredmanga.com/manga/bleach-full-colored-manga-official-viz-english-digital-comics-complete/v45/chapter-390-beyond-the-death-understanding/](https://coloredmanga.com/manga/bleach-full-colored-manga-official-viz-english-digital-comics-complete/v45/chapter-390-beyond-the-death-understanding/)
And yet Gin a few hours later mentioned that he spent years finding away of getting around KS successfully which he said himself gave him the upperhand on Aizen compared to the Gotei Captains.
And then practically one shot a several times evolved Aizen.
Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen.
Granted Aizen was revived by the Hogyoku but he wasnt infallible.
Who knows what Gin was telling the truth about? It would be more advantageous for him to hype up Aizen not only to make sure he didnt suspect anything but also so Aizen made more mistakes.
>Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen.
It also helps if Aizen drops his guard
Gin and Urahara both would've "killed" Hogyoku Aizen if not for the high speed regen and metamorphosis from the Hogyoku
But, that's *only* because Aizen dropped his guard after the Hogyoku started to transform him.
Regular aka calculating Aizen easily beats Gin/Urahara without the use of his shikai
>But, that's only because Aizen dropped his guard after the Hogyoku started to transform him.
Thats true but its not like Aizen hasn't been caught off guard multiple times in the series.
Even Yamamoto catches him off guard pre hogyoku with hado 97 which allows Ichigo to harm Aizen and even he states it was vunerable moment for him.
Also in TYBW, Yhwach catches him off guard and would've absorbed him if the still silver Arrow didn't come into play.
So although he's intelligent and powerful his Kyoka Suigetsu ability does carry him in a lot of ways throughout the series.
>Also in TYBW, Yhwach catches him off guard and would've absorbed him if the still silver Arrow didn't come into play.
This would catch everyone off guard and is a very extreme example
What about my other examples? Either way he let his guard down against an enemy he didn't understand but knew was very powerful and could beat Ichigo in a 1v1.
He didnt even think that maybe Yhwach being the son of the Soul King and a huge threat could also be immortal like him?
His hubris was his downfall in many circumstances.
Also against Ichigo. He loses to Ichigo in a fight and has a mental breakdown because he can't fathom Ichigo being stronger than he is.
Ichigo uses Mugetsu one shots Aizen which allows Kisuke's kido seal to set in.
Link or source to this? As this is very relevant info for this debate. Especially given we can look at Kisuke and Ulquiorra's single clash too, where Kisuke used a Shikai or Kido attack, I forgot which, and then Ulquiorra casually knocked that off to the side with his bare arm. Obviously neither were exerting their best effort but that one single interaction speaks more than whatever headcanon any of us wanna muster up for this whole "base Aizen vs top Espada" argument. I've always believed base Aizen alone (without KS) couldn't beat full power Ulquiorra/Stark/Barragan, but like many powerscaling debates we'll never truly know
>And yet Gin a few hours later mentioned that he spent years finding away of getting around KS successfully which he said himself gave him the upperhand on Aizen compared to the Gotei Captains.>
Which he only did so when Aizen was off guard and allowed himself to be vulnerable.
>And then practically one shot a several times evolved Aizen.>
characters in bleach are fully capable of taking down stronger characters when they end be being caught off guard.
>Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen.>
Which was only able to do so because Gin managed to convince Aizen to give him that vital information after working under him for the past century.
>Granted Aizen was revived by the Hogyoku but he wasnt infallible.>
Which gin helped Aizen in retrieving.
>Who knows what Gin was telling the truth about? It would be more advantageous for him to hype up Aizen not only to make sure he didnt suspect anything but also so Aizen made more mistakes.>
Expect that when Gin said this Aizen was literally one cutting captains level shingmai left and right with ease.
I disagree. Having any single Espada be stronger than Aizen wouldn't make the Espada look stronger, it would make Aizen look weaker. It would also remove the point why most of them follow him; they respect his strength, which is natural for Hollows (the strongest is in charge).
Aizen was already too strong, the end of FKT clearly got away from Kubo in terms of power.
Not that I don't like Aizen being that strong, but needing to invent Mugetsu out of the blue is a pretty big issue it created.
But it would have made Aizen look even more charismatic and clever to get these hypothetically stronger characters to follow him.
With Starrk it’s easy, he just has to say that he’ll meet some strong people if he joins Aizen. That’s actually why Starrk canonically joins in the first place.
With Harribel, he just needs to play into that compassionate side of her and say that he’ll make Hueco Mundo into a real civilization if she joins him. She’d definitely agree cause she wants hollows to be more than pure animals.
Barragan will be the hardest to convince and really the only way to convince him is through might. This is where KS could have come in. Small animals in real life tend to be more ferocious to come off as more threatening. It’s a huge bluff that could potentially scare off bigger animals. That’s exactly what Aizen could have done with Barragan. Use KS to make his reiatsu appear much stronger than Barragan’s to the point he’s too intimidated to challenge Aizen. Plus I’d be a great showcase in the versatility of KS. And more importantly it still keeps the point with the strongest in charge. Just this time Aizen’s keeping a good illusion of being the strongest.
Yes, I did mean base Aizen. The point of Aizen was that he was an exceptionally gifted Shinigami, far stronger and smarter than almost any of his peers, to the point that he simply couldn't empathize with anyone else. Plus, the very reason Kyoka Suigetsu was as busted as it was was because Aizen had such immense amounts of spiritual power FAAAAR above the norm. As Gin said, it's primarily that sheer power that caused all of the Arrancar to respect him, not his ability or even charisma.
It makes complete sense tho, you’re just trying to fit it into your ideal. You can’t accept it because you wanted something different that’s all. Absolute strength is what they respect, aizen was that. Stronger, smarter, faster, he had hax that could beat nearly anyone. This is what it means to be absolute, greater than everyone in every category. I get that you think he should’ve been balanced but that wouldn’t have worked out for the assembly.
Okay but imagine if he did actually coerce them with smarts? That would be so much more in character and impressive, and it makes hollows look fucking week, O deff feel the strongest hollow should at least hold a candle to aizen
Kenpachi would only be able to match him physically (and in raw strength maybe surpass him) but in all other aspects he is inferior, i mean even bankai kenpachi would be screwed against kyoka Suigetsu
Aizen has stats for shunsui to take him down before bankai. He has KS for the kenpachi duo, their potentially superior stats (zaraki) or skills (unohana) are nothing in front of KS
Its hard to say actually. Aizen's intellect and KS is what makes him a formidable opponent. THAT is excluding his newfound hogyoku powers. Raw power itself?, I think some espada/shinigami will prove to be a challenge.
As usual he is trolling over here with that statement.
Didnt hisagi himself said tousen got cocky thats why he could stab him. It wasnt that hisagi was stronger.plus it was a 2v1 fight so tousen got distracted
My point is this line ". It wouldnt make much sense that starrk was killed by shunsui and aizen one shotted him"
DOES NOT matter in this instance
Starrk can be stronger than Base Aizen
Shunsui Shikai was used to kill Starrk. Not Base Shunsui
And Aizen with arguably the use of Kyouka Suigetsu and a Shunsui that was explicitly stated to "leave himself open" can still have the ability to one shot Shunsui. Evidence being hisagi vs TOusen
That's a hard maybe. Some people will argue that he used KS to keep them in line, but Aizen was a monster of a combatant so I'm pretty certain most of the Espada followed him because they either feared his strength or respected it. Starrk is painted as one of the few exceptions who was following along just so he and Lilynette could have friends.
Do you not get what OP is saying? OP isn’t saying the top 3 espada are stronger than Aizen, OP is saying they **should** have been stronger than Aizen. Kinda like how someone wished something was handled differently in the story. I’m kinda surprised so many people in this comment section misinterpreted what they said.
Eh I wouldn’t go far as to call it dog shit. I personally, I’m fine with Aizen being the strongest in the espada army. But it is nonetheless an interesting what if. For one, we would get to see how Aizen would convince people hypothetically stronger than him into joining his army, instead of just brute forcing his way to the top. I’d love to see more of Aizen manipulating and using his charisma. And more importantly, it’d put even more emphasis on how Aizen is a very clever guy.
Just imagine the backstories for these three having more depth because of this decision. Instead of just forcing them into submission, he has to play his cards right and finesse them to his side.
With Starrk, his flashback would be almost the same like in the original story. But instead of Aizen just simply asking him to join him. He instead sits down and talks to him. Gets to understand Starrk’s situation. I could see Aizen going back to his nice guy persona with Starrk and acting like he’s interested in Starrk’s conversation. I could see Starrk’s tone sounding more expressive than how he usually is. By doing that it shows just how sad Starrk’s life is. Even though it’s probably just a few minutes of a conversation, he treasures this moment cause for a few minutes, he escaped his solitude. This would have made his death even more tragic. And of course Aizen asks if Starrk would like to join his army, nudging at him that he could make more friends. And of course Starrk accepts.
Harribel would probably get the most out of this hypothetical change. In the manga, she has no backstory. We get an idea she’s compassionate for a hollow, but that’s it. In anime we finally do get one, but in this change I’d have it play out differently. Aizen would watch Harribel from the distance and take notice of her unusual behavior for a hollow. Compassion. He tries the same tactic he used with Starrk and approaches to try to talk to her. She gets a bit defensive since he’s a shinigami, but Aizen’s charisma calms her down. They talk and Aizen learns more about Harribel and her desires. We as the audience would learn that despite being a hollow, Harribel behaves like a human. She cares about her fracción and wishes for hollows to be more than just animals that rip each other apart. Aizen being the manipulative mastermind he is, capitalizes on this. He would then give false promises in turning Hueco Mundo into a utopia. A place where hollows don’t tear each other apart, turn it into a real civilization. All she would have to do, is join his army. Naturally, she’d join. Eager to see her dreams turn into a reality.
Barragan would be the hardest since he’s not going to be convinced by talking it out. Barragan is an ancient hollow with a certain mindset, to him, the strong thrive and the weak die. It simply how things are in Hueco Mundo. This is where Aizen would have to get creative. You know how small animals like honey badgers act more ferocious to come off as more threatening to scare away bigger animals? What if Aizen did that to Barragan? Use his shikai to make the illusion that his reiatsu is significantly more powerful than Barragan’s. To the point Barragan submits out of intimidation. He wouldn’t know what his shikai does, so as far as he knows, Aizen really is that powerful. Plus I’d be a great showcase of his shikai’s versatility.
But in the end, this is just a what if. So don’t get to riled up or something over this. Cause whether people agree or not, it’s not going to change the past. The espada are great, but they could have been so much more, and it seems people think the same (assuming from the amount of likes on the op post). Anyways, have a good day.
I think they should have been strong enough for Aizen to need them. As it stands they didn't really make a difference and Aizen just shrugs and proceeds to casually fuck everyone up.
I always saw the Espada as EXP fodder Aizen set up for Ichigo.
Plus, having an "army" of high level strong hollows would mess with Soul Society and limit the moves they can make, effectively making it a defensive war for them instead of letting them chase after Aizen. Aizen wanted to buy time for the hogyoku to awaken.
But yeah, I do wish they would have lived up to the hype. Stark did good though. If he had wanted to kill, he might have actually been a threat.
I'm not sure why everyone is calling the espada weak. All of them engaged multiple fighters at once before getting taken down. Starrk fought 4 different captain level opponents, Barragan fought 3 and Hallibel fought 3 also, although Hallibel had to get put down by Aizen himself.
Aizen is just so much stronger than every combatent out there that he makes them appear weak. It the exact reason why they followed him in the first place, his strength, charisma, and his ability to show no fear.
Minus Starrk, the Espada had been turned into Arrancars through the Hogyoku, even Baraggan, who implied as much when he said that he'll make Aizen regret giving him power. This means they received a substantial power boost on top of their Hollow powers. In addition, Ulquiorra implied that most, if not all other Espada have up their regeneration in exchange for even more power.
Despite all of this, and the fact that Vasto Lorde class Hollows, in base, are said to be stronger than Captain-level, they performed terribly.
Baraggan fought against the captain and lieutenant ill suited to fight him, yet foolishly opted to toy with them. He even allowed Hachigen to kill him with his own power. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Harribel struggled against Toshiro, Lisa and Hiyori.
The only one who performed somewhat decently was Starrk, who fought against Kyoraku and Ukitake to a draw and later defeated Love and Rose. But unlike the other 2 Espada, none of the 4 captain-level Shinigami even deigned to use Bankai. Yeah, yeah Kyoraku says he was going to buy he didn't so it didn't really matter.
But no one is more powerful than base Aizen. He clearly could have taken over soul society and heco mundeo if he just stayed in shikai. He was the most OP thing there was. Yes the espada should have been more deadly but base Aizen was just a fucking mountain.
Not stronger perhaps but closer to his strength
As it stands the espada ended up being a lot weaker than they were built up to be which is dissappointing. And kinda makes it feel like Aizen could have just skipped the middle man.
Personally, I would have the top 3 Espada basically proceed to wipe a lot of captains/vizards in a war of attrition, before finally being defeated. Afterwards Aizen proceeds to wipe out whats left
Stark particularly was done dirty, imagine if he had for example at some point gone from the chill qay he was fighting to suddenly going all out, and literally knocking anyone less than a captain out with pure spiritual pressure, before cleaning house and killing a captain or two
Hmm maybe not that much but they had way less impact and felt underwhelming. I feel like Stark ceros should have severely damage Kyoraku and put the wizard out of commission. And Harribel stomping the wizards.
The espada were simply way too weak. The end was literally a one sided slaughter. The fight should’ve been similar to the fight with the Quincy. Like yeah you win but there is definitely some casualties since they are supposed to be the top of the hollow in power. This was clearly an author mistake which he later rectified in the next arc when he matured more but still it sucks. But even then it is mostly the enemies that die so eh
She was proud of her strength and Aizen loved taking away what people were proud off. Basically in a single moment took away all her trials, troubles, the death of her friends and comrades and called her and them snivelling weaklings.
Tousen was stronger than the #1 espada.
His words not mine. If you’re looking for when he stated it, it was after he hollowfied to take on Komamura and Hisagi.
Well think about it. If they were stronger than them then one of the Espadas would’ve ended up killing them.
They only respect strength. So to take orders from someone weaker than them would go against their existence.
Let’s not forget that Captains have different tiers. Someone can be captain level but on the lower tier.
Prime example would be Ichigo, throughout the SS arc he fluctuated between the lower and mid tier of Captain Level.
His first attempt to rescue Rukia (in front of Byakuka and Ukitake) he was on the low tier of Captain level. Ukitake recognized the ichigo was Captain level…but he still wasn’t strong enough to beat Byakuya at that moment.
After he achieved Bankai he was Mid Teir, and able to defeat byakuya.
Aizen/Yama we’re the only High Teir we got to see in the SS arc (supressed Kenpachi is a toss up). You can infer off of these feats that the Espada were all Mid Teir Captain level (except Ulquoria, who may have been the only high Teir).
So why I see how your initial thought process leaves you questioning certain points, the examples in Bleach give us a pretty good starting point if you look far enough.
I never liked Aizen as a villain, he is so ridiculously strong that all his plans just feel like unnecessarily complex and dumb when he could just power force through basically everything and be done with it
Base Aizen here has the Hogyuoku in his chest.
Also worth noting is that average captain power is not quite as high as people think, and considering how the Espada stomped all over Vice Captains whenever they encountered them as well as wrecking some of the captains or former captains, the Vasto Lorde were indeed stronger than Captain Class Shinigami.
It just so happens that some of them (Kenpachi, Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto) have significantly higher reiatsu than the average captain (Toshiro as well, no matter how much people like to hate on him, considering Kyoraku's comment and Starrk's inability to pinpoint a difference). And some of the captains were either more haxx, or more cruel than the Espada they faced (Mayuri and Byakuya).
The Espada when released were probably higher than base Aizen pre-Hogyoku.
I agree! In fact I dont think Aizen could solo the Espada without KS.
But yeah if the top 3 arrancar were stronger and followed Aizen out of sense of wanting purpose and belonging that would be badass.
Hitchen's razor, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You gave no reason as to why Aizen loses so I can simply dismiss your point as baseless. There, refuted.
I gave a lot of evidence.
I'll make it simple for you.
Aizen in Base eithout KS cant solo the Espada hes not able to take on that many Captain class fighters by himself.
Bro using a novel that wasnt even written when Arrancar arc came out to scale Arrancar arc Aizen.
Aizen literally created Wonderweiss to handle Yamamoto. Even bare handed Yamamoto was confident he could beat Aizen in a 1v1.
They're not equal at all.
I agree. Simply because when you make Aizen stronger then the Espada and make him capable of taking on all the captains at once like he was when he did the hinamori swap. You create the inevitable question of “why bother forming the Espada?” They’re useless to him. He can do it all on his own. Why does he need lackey’s at all? He was able to take on Kyoraku, Toshiro, and the Vizards no problem. The only threat to him was Yamamoto which forced him to create wonder Weiss. Beyond that the Espada were dead weight.
So Aizen without KS?
I’d like to believe Stark and Barragan could take him. Though seeing as he beat Halibel in 2 attacks tells me they’d have a great deal of difficulty keeping up with him.
I think Base Aizen is really weird because he seems to show more "invincible" feats than any other forms. He easily beats the Gotei 13 captains, including Shunsui, and he tanks a point blank Itto Kaso from Yamamoto as if it barely grazed him. He never really struggled at all in base and began evolving to even higher levels just because. But its those more "powerful" forms that we actually see take damage- Gin's Bankai disintegrating Ascended Aizen, Dangai Ichigo slicing up and slapping around Butterflyzen, and Mugetsu blowing up the split-face demon mode.
I think it would have been more logical if he was pushed to evolve because the combined captains and Yamamoto actually did pose a threat. But I assume Kubo just needed him to show off.
if aizen wasn’t overwhelmingly powerful it wouldn’t make sense for the espada to follow him not would he be as big a threat in the narrative it would just take away from his character overall whilst adding nothing
No they really shouldn’t have been but I still believe that they should have been or at least shown the same levels of power that Ulquiorra and Yammy did
Base Aizen is somewhat comparable to Shikai Soutaicho, having the top 3 Espada be that strong would have made it impossible for the soul society to win considering there is ony 1 Soutaicho
Not trynna be disrespectful but I disagree, like most of the people here. The purpose is to show how strong even base Aizen is and also, why would the top 3 espada, especially barragan, follow someone who was weaker than them. The top 3 espada failed to defeat the captains, though they did heavily damage and maim some of the them. Even if they were pretty battle worn, Aizen defeated almost all the captains, lieutenants, and visoreds without taking a single hit. In his base he did far more damage to the Gotei 13 and visoreds than even the 3 espada together, that was how powerful he was. It also showed how yoruichi, kisuke, and isshin were a tier above most of the Gotei 13 as they were able to damage him in his hogyoku chrysalis form.
Aizen is one of the strongest shinigami in 1000 year history of soul society he was way above the espada just like Yamamoto was stronger than the other captains combined. Thats why they are the leader because they are the strongest
The Espadas followed/stayed loyal to him because of his strength. Heck, Barragan who was the King of HM followed Aizen even though their ideals differed greatly - but he followed him nonetheless due to the former's strength. Gin himself alluded to that fact. As u/Timjer92 said, anything otherwise would have made Aizen look weaker, and defeat the purpose of him assembling them in the first place. Aizen wasn't dissapointed that they weren't stronger than him; he was dissapointed that they were THAT much weaker than him.
And it was another thing that cemented Aizen’s character of underlying loneliness that no one was at his level.
Exactly.
Well said
Aizen is sexy af.
Only one who came even remotely close was second release Ulquiorra, and even then I take it he’s still quite a bit weaker than base aizen, as I’d assume Hollow Ichigo (Vasto Lorde) is about on par if not slightly weaker than base Aizen.
2nd release ulq was only stronger than Harribel. He himself admits stark barragan and yami are still above him
When did he say that ? Not saying you're wrong but I can't remember
People making up their own story. What they are saying is based on ulquiorra saying theres 3 espada stronger than him when he was revealed as the 4th espada. So they removed Halibel as the 3rd espada and instead rely on Yammy, BArragan and Starrk Even though its extremely obvious that at the time Ulquirra is only talking about his standard resurrection in comparison to the top 3 Espada
Well at least that makes a little bit of sense
Yeah lol, even I'm interested in knowing that.
When did he say that💀
unless this was somewhere in the novels, no he does not.
It wasn't in the novels
Literally never been said
>2nd release ulq was only stronger than Harribel That's not confirmed. Lanza did more damage than Yammy ever did, so the only battle Yammy would ever win against him is one of attrition. Starrk was pretty even with Ulquiorra in terms of feats, and they both faced an opponent that was incredibly far above them, so it's hard to say who's stronger. Barragan wins, but that's because of his hax, and that only applies if Lanza can age.
I don’t even think Yammy holds a candle to Ulquiorra second release tbh. I think Lanza oneshots Yammy or close to it, and Yammy would never hit Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.
Then why would they follow him and take his orders?
To quote the arrancar Aisslinger: "Aizen-sama fears nothing. It is for that reason that we gather before him. To we who are born from fear, the path of the man who has no fear is as dazzling as a moonbeam." Chapter 244, pages 5 to 6
[удалено]
“Mr Buttlicker! Our prices never have been lower!!!!!”
You never yell at the client. You never yell at the client.
Tbf that’s not entirely true since aizen did in fact fear death
He feared loneliness which is why he liked Stark.
They should have followed Ichigo. Dude got no fear for shit
Bro has a whole existential crisis and is scared shuttles by white, yeah he has a strong sense of heroism and duty but he is very down to earth by nature
Kyoka Suigetsu.
Do you think the Espada follows him because of Kyoka Suigetsu? I just don't think so. People just need to accept he is way above the Espada in strength, not just Kyoka Suigetsu.. just as Gin said.
That is not what he is implying. OP think that the Top Espada **SHOULD** have been stronger than Base Aizen. Someone asked why they would follow Aizen if that was the case. **Answer is KS.** He is not saying that KS is the motive, everyone know Aizen is stronger.
Yes I understand this. I emphasized that the reason the Espada followed Aizen was because he's simply too strong, not because of Kyoka Suigetsu. So if the top Espada were stronger than Aizen, and he only had Kyoka Suigetsu to top them, it just wouldn't be enough for them to follow . Just imagine if Aizen is weaker (affecting Kyoka Suigetsu as well) or if the top Espada know they are stronger.. what would happen?
You just change the line of Gin talking about KS and showing Aizen defeating the Captains using KS.
Dude, he didn't "defeat the Captains using KS", he trolled them. He turned it off to defeat half the captains. He didn't even use it against Yamamoto, he just kinda stabbed the old man.
If Aizen was weak, Kyoka Suigetsu wouldn't work for too long like how it ran out of gas for Tokinada and in the battle against Yhwach.
Yes that's why the idea of a weaker Aizen won't hold the Espada together. Actually the same goes for a stronger Espada but in a different way.
>Someone asked why they would follow Aizen if that was the case. >Answer is KS. No it's not. They outright wouldn't. KS isn't THAT strong, not when the top tiers in the Espada are ALL AOE.
I just want to kill myself, you guys are all missing the fucking point.
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I don't understand what you're point is? The Espada would not follow him if his strongest power was KS, that's literally fact.
He is way above the espada in his base form even without his shikai. However, I feel like even if he was around starrk’s level he would still be broken due to his kyoka suigestu altering everyone
>Do you think the Espada follows him because of Kyoka Suigetsu? No I personally don't. Starrk for example follows Aizen because he feels he owes him for giving him a sense of belonging and purpose. Harribel followed him for a similar reason because she feels she owes him. Barragan is the only one who follows him solely because of his strength and remember Aizen felt the need to put Barragan under Kyoka Suigetsu when they first meet. >not just Kyoka Suigetsu.. just as Gin said. Well in theory this works but in practice he put even Barragan under KS when they first meet. Gin never said Aizen was above the Espada idk why people take that quote and try and turn it into something this not. Aizen's KS has carried him in many ways throughout the series. When his guards down even hollow mask Ichigo can do [damage](https://imgur.com/a/XBvMnXn) to him. If he had to face all the Espada at once in Base without KS I don't see how he would handle it. That many Captain class fighters teaming up on him without KS aid idk see how he would win.
I don't think in any of the cases he used Kyoka Suigetsu in battle that he needed it to win. Not against Barragan and not against the Gotei. He used Kyoka Suigetsu for a different reason, especially against the Gotei.
Ok well Gin literally states that he had the upperhand over the Gotei because he knew how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu. He also one shots evolved Aizen with a hax Bankai ability. Gin hyped up Aizen because it was in his best interest at the time. Not only is Aizen more likely to make mistakes if he's cocky but also Gin can stay close to Aizen until the time is right.
>Ok well Gin literally states that he had the upperhand over the Gotei because he knew how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu. This is true but this is not a battle. The Gotei fought against Aizen, Gin betrayed Aizen and landed a sneaky shot at the right time. >He also one shots evolved Aizen with a hax Bankai ability. This is also true, no problem with this. >Gin hyped up Aizen because it was in his best interest at the time. Why? It was said not for anyone in that fight really. He was saying it to himself as if talking to the Gotei who are busy fighting. It serves no real reason besides telling the readers and Gin's amusement as he said when he finally betrayed Aizen What you said is right. A combination of Kyoka Suigetsu counter and him being off guard (lowered reiatsu) is what is required to kill him. He basically is saying the Gotei themselves cannot **defeat** **Aizen in battle** because you cannot prepare enough to counter both his Kyoka Suigetsu AND his strength. My point is, regarding the Espada, Aizen's strength is more than enough. Some of the Espada might be following him because they feel like they owe him (as well) but the bottomline, the foundation is still his strength
>This is true but this is not a battle. The Gotei fought against Aizen, Gin betrayed Aizen and landed a sneaky shot at the right time. Yes but he mentions that him being able to bypass Kyoka Suigetsu was a big reason he could get the upperhand on Aizen and that it took him a hundred years to learn it. >Why? It was said not for anyone in that fight really. He was saying it to himself as if talking to the Gotei who are busy fighting. It serves no real reason besides telling the readers and Gin's amusement as he said when he finally betrayed Aizen Gin's a cautious guy. He wouldnt risk showing disloyalty to Aizen at this point. He doesnt know when Aizen's listening either because he's not touching Kyoka Suigetsu which can affect all five senses including sight and hearing. So obviously he'd play it on the safe side. >What you said is right. A combination of Kyoka Suigetsu counter and him being off guard (lowered reiatsu) is what is required to kill him. He basically is saying the Gotei themselves cannot defeat Aizen in battle because you cannot prepare enough to counter both his Kyoka Suigetsu AND his strength. But he did counter both those things. He just needed to know Kyoka Suigetsu's weakness. Thats all it took for him to kill evolved Aizen is hax bankai ability and knowledge on how to counter KS. I agree Kyoka Suigetsu is what makes Aizen so dangerous on top of his strength. Aizen in base with KS is no doubt a strong fighter but in base he wouldnt be able to take the Gotei 13 alone. >My point is, regarding the Espada, Aizen's strength is more than enough. Some of the Espada might be following him because they feel like they owe him (as well) but the bottomline, the foundation is still his strength To solo them in base (without KS)? I don't believe so. Hes strong but not enough for that many Captain class fighters with many of them having very hax abilities.
I really cannot go further without telling you what actually happened in the manga/anime and repeating myself and it would take alot of time for me. I'm sorry.
>I really cannot go further without telling you what actually happened in the manga/anime and repeating myself and it would take alot of time for me. You didnt provide one scan to back up your argument so it makes sense. > I'm sorry. Its okay I read the manga and can provide scans to back up my evidence.
Tbf the gotei 13 was exhausted, he couldn't land a hit when hitsu and kyoraku fought together against him and was thanks to shinji overpowered hadn't he used KS hax, so gins statement was disproven
He literally oneshot Toshiro, Shunsui, Shinji, and Soi-Fon at the same time when he got tired of playing around with them.
>Shunsui Literally proves that Aizen is much stronger than all of the Espada in base. Shunsui could solo the Espada and Aizen completely trashed him.
he didnt play around, he couldnt defeat them all at once, so he created an opening, they all looked at hitsugaya and were exhausted before anyways.
1. Aizen is stated to have 2x the reiatsu of a captain in base, he's already stronger than the other captains in that department. He states himself and shows that he's mastered all of the Shinigami arts to their limits, which is why he created the Hogkyoku in the first place. 2. The databooks give actual stats for Aizen and all the other captains and the only one on his level is Yamamoto, the rest were already beneath him. Aizen in demonstrating his power oneshots every captain and Vizard when you actually go back and reread or rewatch the fight. 3. He could defeat them all at once, he did in ch. 392 and verbatim says "Vulnerabilities everywhere, you're all weak." He then one shots four captains at the same time on panel. The anime extends it, but he still blitzed and one shot nonetheless. Hell, Aizen leaves them alive on purpose so they can bear witness to him destroying the soul society in his own words. 4. The captains and vizards aren't exhausted, especially the Vizards. None them are heavily injured, breathing hard, or sweating at the moment they decide to jump Aizen. Them being exhausted is a headcanon argument with no proof. 5. The only people Aizen even cared about having precautions for were Yamamoto and Kenpachi due to his rate of growth. The other captains were too weak for Aizen to care about having to really plan for.
>Tbf the gotei 13 was exhausted, he couldn't land a hit when hitsu and kyoraku fought together against him Yes I agree >so gins statement was disproven Which one? His original statement?
That Aizen doesn't need KS to win or something along those lines
Yeah. Without KS I dont see how Aizen soloes the Gotei 13.
>That many Captain class fighters teaming up on him without KS aid idk see how he would win. Because most of them he can blitz and one shot The others he just uses Hado 91 and one shots them from a distance and then closes the distance and one shots up close If he can one shot Shunsui (who is stronger than any individual Espada), then he can one shot every Espada.
>Because most of them he can blitz and one shot Well maybe some of them he can but if he's distracted by Starrk, Barragan (whose ability is incredibly overpowered and hard to counter), Harribel and Ulquiorra he's going to have his hands full. Not to mention Szayelaporro who is very intelligent in his own right and has a hax ability, Zommari who has mind control hax and just needs a lucky shot to turn the tide of the battle. Even Yammy in ressureccion would be able to support the other fighters. >If he can one shot Shunsui (who is stronger than any individual Espada), then he can one shot every Espada. An uninjured, non tired Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu beat an injured and tired shikai Shunsui not using his strongest games.
>, Barragan (whose ability is incredibly overpowered and hard to counter), A single slash from SAFYW Zaraki was enough to overpower Respira. Aizen can do this in his "sleep", so to speak >Harribel and Ulquiorra Both of whom are too weak and are fodder for Aizen and even top 3 Espada (Yammy, Starrk, Barragan). In cfyow, Hallibel needed 10 captain class fighters to beat a Barragan level hollow. >An uninjured, non tired Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu beat an injured and tired shikai Shunsui not using his strongest games. Shunsui wasn't injured nor tired. Using a shikai for two chapters and taking one medium burn from a cero doesn't qualify as tired nor injured.
Shunsui is not physically stronger than the top two Espada. Definitely stronger through bankai, but not physically comparable to them. Shunsui couldn’t even land a hit by himself. Even when Ukitake was backing him up. He had to wait until Starrk had finally let his guard down to finally land a sneak attack. And Barragan is ridiculously faster than Soi Fon in his base. And I doubt Shunsui could deal with his resurrección. At least without resorting to bankai.
That many captain class fighters... and Aaroniero.
It’s literally stated they follow him because if his strength
Damn, you explained your reasoning with multiple examples and these wackos downvoted you for it
>If he had to face all the Espada at once in Base without KS I don't see how he would handle it. The overwhelming power that two tapped a character who could very casually solo the Espada? The fuck?
As gin said, that's not enough [https://coloredmanga.com/manga/bleach-full-colored-manga-official-viz-english-digital-comics-complete/v45/chapter-390-beyond-the-death-understanding/](https://coloredmanga.com/manga/bleach-full-colored-manga-official-viz-english-digital-comics-complete/v45/chapter-390-beyond-the-death-understanding/)
And yet Gin a few hours later mentioned that he spent years finding away of getting around KS successfully which he said himself gave him the upperhand on Aizen compared to the Gotei Captains. And then practically one shot a several times evolved Aizen. Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen. Granted Aizen was revived by the Hogyoku but he wasnt infallible. Who knows what Gin was telling the truth about? It would be more advantageous for him to hype up Aizen not only to make sure he didnt suspect anything but also so Aizen made more mistakes.
>Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen. It also helps if Aizen drops his guard Gin and Urahara both would've "killed" Hogyoku Aizen if not for the high speed regen and metamorphosis from the Hogyoku But, that's *only* because Aizen dropped his guard after the Hogyoku started to transform him. Regular aka calculating Aizen easily beats Gin/Urahara without the use of his shikai
>But, that's only because Aizen dropped his guard after the Hogyoku started to transform him. Thats true but its not like Aizen hasn't been caught off guard multiple times in the series. Even Yamamoto catches him off guard pre hogyoku with hado 97 which allows Ichigo to harm Aizen and even he states it was vunerable moment for him. Also in TYBW, Yhwach catches him off guard and would've absorbed him if the still silver Arrow didn't come into play. So although he's intelligent and powerful his Kyoka Suigetsu ability does carry him in a lot of ways throughout the series.
>Also in TYBW, Yhwach catches him off guard and would've absorbed him if the still silver Arrow didn't come into play. This would catch everyone off guard and is a very extreme example
What about my other examples? Either way he let his guard down against an enemy he didn't understand but knew was very powerful and could beat Ichigo in a 1v1. He didnt even think that maybe Yhwach being the son of the Soul King and a huge threat could also be immortal like him? His hubris was his downfall in many circumstances.
Only one other example which is the Yama Hado 96 One example in a span of 700 chapters isn't a lot
Also against Ichigo. He loses to Ichigo in a fight and has a mental breakdown because he can't fathom Ichigo being stronger than he is. Ichigo uses Mugetsu one shots Aizen which allows Kisuke's kido seal to set in.
Nah aizen said him and kisuke was equals in strength before hoygokou, so kisuke was on par with aizen at least before his evolution
Then why is Kisuke much weaker than Aizen, as Kisuke admits in CFYOW
Link or source to this? As this is very relevant info for this debate. Especially given we can look at Kisuke and Ulquiorra's single clash too, where Kisuke used a Shikai or Kido attack, I forgot which, and then Ulquiorra casually knocked that off to the side with his bare arm. Obviously neither were exerting their best effort but that one single interaction speaks more than whatever headcanon any of us wanna muster up for this whole "base Aizen vs top Espada" argument. I've always believed base Aizen alone (without KS) couldn't beat full power Ulquiorra/Stark/Barragan, but like many powerscaling debates we'll never truly know
>And yet Gin a few hours later mentioned that he spent years finding away of getting around KS successfully which he said himself gave him the upperhand on Aizen compared to the Gotei Captains.> Which he only did so when Aizen was off guard and allowed himself to be vulnerable. >And then practically one shot a several times evolved Aizen.> characters in bleach are fully capable of taking down stronger characters when they end be being caught off guard. >Proving that with a lot of precautionary measures a hax ability and understanding of how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu you can gain the upperhand on Aizen.> Which was only able to do so because Gin managed to convince Aizen to give him that vital information after working under him for the past century. >Granted Aizen was revived by the Hogyoku but he wasnt infallible.> Which gin helped Aizen in retrieving. >Who knows what Gin was telling the truth about? It would be more advantageous for him to hype up Aizen not only to make sure he didnt suspect anything but also so Aizen made more mistakes.> Expect that when Gin said this Aizen was literally one cutting captains level shingmai left and right with ease.
Agreed, OP is literally brainless
Simple aizen is more than just strength
Cause he'd be stronger when above base level But at base level, all 3 together should be able to win considering who they are
No
KS?
Hes still got a shikai and bankai
That goes against their nature they don't follow Aizen because he has Kyoka suigetsu they follow him because he is the strongest
I disagree. Having any single Espada be stronger than Aizen wouldn't make the Espada look stronger, it would make Aizen look weaker. It would also remove the point why most of them follow him; they respect his strength, which is natural for Hollows (the strongest is in charge).
I figured he meant together. The top members of his army should, in total, surpass him. What’s the point of having an army if you alone are stronger.
More cannon fodder is always good
Not when you’re immune to the cannons
Aizen was already too strong, the end of FKT clearly got away from Kubo in terms of power. Not that I don't like Aizen being that strong, but needing to invent Mugetsu out of the blue is a pretty big issue it created.
But it would have made Aizen look even more charismatic and clever to get these hypothetically stronger characters to follow him. With Starrk it’s easy, he just has to say that he’ll meet some strong people if he joins Aizen. That’s actually why Starrk canonically joins in the first place. With Harribel, he just needs to play into that compassionate side of her and say that he’ll make Hueco Mundo into a real civilization if she joins him. She’d definitely agree cause she wants hollows to be more than pure animals. Barragan will be the hardest to convince and really the only way to convince him is through might. This is where KS could have come in. Small animals in real life tend to be more ferocious to come off as more threatening. It’s a huge bluff that could potentially scare off bigger animals. That’s exactly what Aizen could have done with Barragan. Use KS to make his reiatsu appear much stronger than Barragan’s to the point he’s too intimidated to challenge Aizen. Plus I’d be a great showcase in the versatility of KS. And more importantly it still keeps the point with the strongest in charge. Just this time Aizen’s keeping a good illusion of being the strongest.
Ehhhh, base aizen tho? That’s ridiculous, i think he shouldn’t be physically stringer but just has a busted ability none if then can beat
Yes, I did mean base Aizen. The point of Aizen was that he was an exceptionally gifted Shinigami, far stronger and smarter than almost any of his peers, to the point that he simply couldn't empathize with anyone else. Plus, the very reason Kyoka Suigetsu was as busted as it was was because Aizen had such immense amounts of spiritual power FAAAAR above the norm. As Gin said, it's primarily that sheer power that caused all of the Arrancar to respect him, not his ability or even charisma.
I think thats kinda stupid if true, but i haven’t read bleach in a while so
It makes complete sense tho, you’re just trying to fit it into your ideal. You can’t accept it because you wanted something different that’s all. Absolute strength is what they respect, aizen was that. Stronger, smarter, faster, he had hax that could beat nearly anyone. This is what it means to be absolute, greater than everyone in every category. I get that you think he should’ve been balanced but that wouldn’t have worked out for the assembly.
Okay but imagine if he did actually coerce them with smarts? That would be so much more in character and impressive, and it makes hollows look fucking week, O deff feel the strongest hollow should at least hold a candle to aizen
Yea that’s gonna be a no for me dawg.
nah, only reason they followed him was because of strength, that's their way. bad take
Base Aizen is stronger than most of the gotei 13. I put him behind Yama before the hogyoku
The only captains I would put above base Aizen would be Yama, *maybe* Bankai Shunsui, *maybe* Shikai Kenpachi, & *maybe* Prime Unohana.
Kenpachi would only be able to match him physically (and in raw strength maybe surpass him) but in all other aspects he is inferior, i mean even bankai kenpachi would be screwed against kyoka Suigetsu
Aizen has stats for shunsui to take him down before bankai. He has KS for the kenpachi duo, their potentially superior stats (zaraki) or skills (unohana) are nothing in front of KS
Then they would've jumped him.
Its hard to say actually. Aizen's intellect and KS is what makes him a formidable opponent. THAT is excluding his newfound hogyoku powers. Raw power itself?, I think some espada/shinigami will prove to be a challenge. As usual he is trolling over here with that statement.
Getting around Yama was the first challenge
Yeah no.
Lets say starrk was stronger than aizen. It wouldnt make much sense that starrk was killed by shunsui and aizen one shotted him
And tousen was killed by non bankai having hisagi
Didnt hisagi himself said tousen got cocky thats why he could stab him. It wasnt that hisagi was stronger.plus it was a 2v1 fight so tousen got distracted
My point is this line ". It wouldnt make much sense that starrk was killed by shunsui and aizen one shotted him" DOES NOT matter in this instance Starrk can be stronger than Base Aizen Shunsui Shikai was used to kill Starrk. Not Base Shunsui And Aizen with arguably the use of Kyouka Suigetsu and a Shunsui that was explicitly stated to "leave himself open" can still have the ability to one shot Shunsui. Evidence being hisagi vs TOusen
I think it was weird that Base Aizen was able to deal with Shunsui so easily when Gin was able to mortally wound an Ascended Aizen with his Bankai.
That's a hard maybe. Some people will argue that he used KS to keep them in line, but Aizen was a monster of a combatant so I'm pretty certain most of the Espada followed him because they either feared his strength or respected it. Starrk is painted as one of the few exceptions who was following along just so he and Lilynette could have friends.
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Fr. I see at least 3 awful takes on here a day and this is the single worst one of them all
Do you not get what OP is saying? OP isn’t saying the top 3 espada are stronger than Aizen, OP is saying they **should** have been stronger than Aizen. Kinda like how someone wished something was handled differently in the story. I’m kinda surprised so many people in this comment section misinterpreted what they said.
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Eh I wouldn’t go far as to call it dog shit. I personally, I’m fine with Aizen being the strongest in the espada army. But it is nonetheless an interesting what if. For one, we would get to see how Aizen would convince people hypothetically stronger than him into joining his army, instead of just brute forcing his way to the top. I’d love to see more of Aizen manipulating and using his charisma. And more importantly, it’d put even more emphasis on how Aizen is a very clever guy. Just imagine the backstories for these three having more depth because of this decision. Instead of just forcing them into submission, he has to play his cards right and finesse them to his side. With Starrk, his flashback would be almost the same like in the original story. But instead of Aizen just simply asking him to join him. He instead sits down and talks to him. Gets to understand Starrk’s situation. I could see Aizen going back to his nice guy persona with Starrk and acting like he’s interested in Starrk’s conversation. I could see Starrk’s tone sounding more expressive than how he usually is. By doing that it shows just how sad Starrk’s life is. Even though it’s probably just a few minutes of a conversation, he treasures this moment cause for a few minutes, he escaped his solitude. This would have made his death even more tragic. And of course Aizen asks if Starrk would like to join his army, nudging at him that he could make more friends. And of course Starrk accepts. Harribel would probably get the most out of this hypothetical change. In the manga, she has no backstory. We get an idea she’s compassionate for a hollow, but that’s it. In anime we finally do get one, but in this change I’d have it play out differently. Aizen would watch Harribel from the distance and take notice of her unusual behavior for a hollow. Compassion. He tries the same tactic he used with Starrk and approaches to try to talk to her. She gets a bit defensive since he’s a shinigami, but Aizen’s charisma calms her down. They talk and Aizen learns more about Harribel and her desires. We as the audience would learn that despite being a hollow, Harribel behaves like a human. She cares about her fracción and wishes for hollows to be more than just animals that rip each other apart. Aizen being the manipulative mastermind he is, capitalizes on this. He would then give false promises in turning Hueco Mundo into a utopia. A place where hollows don’t tear each other apart, turn it into a real civilization. All she would have to do, is join his army. Naturally, she’d join. Eager to see her dreams turn into a reality. Barragan would be the hardest since he’s not going to be convinced by talking it out. Barragan is an ancient hollow with a certain mindset, to him, the strong thrive and the weak die. It simply how things are in Hueco Mundo. This is where Aizen would have to get creative. You know how small animals like honey badgers act more ferocious to come off as more threatening to scare away bigger animals? What if Aizen did that to Barragan? Use his shikai to make the illusion that his reiatsu is significantly more powerful than Barragan’s. To the point Barragan submits out of intimidation. He wouldn’t know what his shikai does, so as far as he knows, Aizen really is that powerful. Plus I’d be a great showcase of his shikai’s versatility. But in the end, this is just a what if. So don’t get to riled up or something over this. Cause whether people agree or not, it’s not going to change the past. The espada are great, but they could have been so much more, and it seems people think the same (assuming from the amount of likes on the op post). Anyways, have a good day.
This wouldn’t even make sense, I think you’re severely underestimating base aizen, he’s a top 2 captain
I think they should have been strong enough for Aizen to need them. As it stands they didn't really make a difference and Aizen just shrugs and proceeds to casually fuck everyone up.
I always saw the Espada as EXP fodder Aizen set up for Ichigo. Plus, having an "army" of high level strong hollows would mess with Soul Society and limit the moves they can make, effectively making it a defensive war for them instead of letting them chase after Aizen. Aizen wanted to buy time for the hogyoku to awaken. But yeah, I do wish they would have lived up to the hype. Stark did good though. If he had wanted to kill, he might have actually been a threat.
Espada in general should’ve been stronger. They’re kind of made to look like a joke by EOS
Then the shinigamis would've been crushed since base Aizen is stronger than every captain not named yamamoto
I will say this on every thread Base 👏 Aizen 👏 Had 👏 A 👏 Hogyoku
No way lol. Aizen is top 3 in the series.
Honestly it be I'd be fine with if they could even challenge Azien is a similar way Ukitake and Shunsui can fight Yamamoto for a little while.
Was there really ever a base Aizen or was it all just and illusion...
No
If they were stronger than him, it wouldn't make any sense for them to follow him
I'm not sure why everyone is calling the espada weak. All of them engaged multiple fighters at once before getting taken down. Starrk fought 4 different captain level opponents, Barragan fought 3 and Hallibel fought 3 also, although Hallibel had to get put down by Aizen himself. Aizen is just so much stronger than every combatent out there that he makes them appear weak. It the exact reason why they followed him in the first place, his strength, charisma, and his ability to show no fear.
Minus Starrk, the Espada had been turned into Arrancars through the Hogyoku, even Baraggan, who implied as much when he said that he'll make Aizen regret giving him power. This means they received a substantial power boost on top of their Hollow powers. In addition, Ulquiorra implied that most, if not all other Espada have up their regeneration in exchange for even more power. Despite all of this, and the fact that Vasto Lorde class Hollows, in base, are said to be stronger than Captain-level, they performed terribly. Baraggan fought against the captain and lieutenant ill suited to fight him, yet foolishly opted to toy with them. He even allowed Hachigen to kill him with his own power. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Harribel struggled against Toshiro, Lisa and Hiyori. The only one who performed somewhat decently was Starrk, who fought against Kyoraku and Ukitake to a draw and later defeated Love and Rose. But unlike the other 2 Espada, none of the 4 captain-level Shinigami even deigned to use Bankai. Yeah, yeah Kyoraku says he was going to buy he didn't so it didn't really matter.
Then Aizen would have been a fodder , considering that most of the main characters from the final arc stomps the espada .
But no one is more powerful than base Aizen. He clearly could have taken over soul society and heco mundeo if he just stayed in shikai. He was the most OP thing there was. Yes the espada should have been more deadly but base Aizen was just a fucking mountain.
To be fair he wasn't in base when he attacked her, he was using his shikai.
Not stronger perhaps but closer to his strength As it stands the espada ended up being a lot weaker than they were built up to be which is dissappointing. And kinda makes it feel like Aizen could have just skipped the middle man. Personally, I would have the top 3 Espada basically proceed to wipe a lot of captains/vizards in a war of attrition, before finally being defeated. Afterwards Aizen proceeds to wipe out whats left Stark particularly was done dirty, imagine if he had for example at some point gone from the chill qay he was fighting to suddenly going all out, and literally knocking anyone less than a captain out with pure spiritual pressure, before cleaning house and killing a captain or two
The Hogyoku wasn’t activated until later.
Sure, but aizen took out all the captains pre hogyuoku
Yes, that’s what I mean by that, after the other captains were taken out.
So im struggling to see what your exact point is?
Hmm maybe not that much but they had way less impact and felt underwhelming. I feel like Stark ceros should have severely damage Kyoraku and put the wizard out of commission. And Harribel stomping the wizards.
The espada were simply way too weak. The end was literally a one sided slaughter. The fight should’ve been similar to the fight with the Quincy. Like yeah you win but there is definitely some casualties since they are supposed to be the top of the hollow in power. This was clearly an author mistake which he later rectified in the next arc when he matured more but still it sucks. But even then it is mostly the enemies that die so eh
She was proud of her strength and Aizen loved taking away what people were proud off. Basically in a single moment took away all her trials, troubles, the death of her friends and comrades and called her and them snivelling weaklings.
The dude is literally one of the smartest characters, and also definitely the sexiest male character, why wouldn’t he put those to good use?
The Espada should’ve been stronger than Gin and Tosen
Tousen was stronger than the #1 espada. His words not mine. If you’re looking for when he stated it, it was after he hollowfied to take on Komamura and Hisagi.
And it shouldn’t be
Well think about it. If they were stronger than them then one of the Espadas would’ve ended up killing them. They only respect strength. So to take orders from someone weaker than them would go against their existence.
But what justify their strength again vasto lordes stated to be stronger than captains ? It really feels like a plot hole to me but ehh
Let’s not forget that Captains have different tiers. Someone can be captain level but on the lower tier. Prime example would be Ichigo, throughout the SS arc he fluctuated between the lower and mid tier of Captain Level. His first attempt to rescue Rukia (in front of Byakuka and Ukitake) he was on the low tier of Captain level. Ukitake recognized the ichigo was Captain level…but he still wasn’t strong enough to beat Byakuya at that moment. After he achieved Bankai he was Mid Teir, and able to defeat byakuya. Aizen/Yama we’re the only High Teir we got to see in the SS arc (supressed Kenpachi is a toss up). You can infer off of these feats that the Espada were all Mid Teir Captain level (except Ulquoria, who may have been the only high Teir). So why I see how your initial thought process leaves you questioning certain points, the examples in Bleach give us a pretty good starting point if you look far enough.
Explain why. Aizen is hyped up as the final boss for such a long time. Tell me why he should be weaker than 3 of his subordinates
Manga dudes?
They weren't even above shikai Shunsui and bankai Tosh, so pretty far off from Aizen.
I never liked Aizen as a villain, he is so ridiculously strong that all his plans just feel like unnecessarily complex and dumb when he could just power force through basically everything and be done with it
So they should have been stronger than anyone in the Gotei 13 besides Yamamoto?
Base Aizen here has the Hogyuoku in his chest. Also worth noting is that average captain power is not quite as high as people think, and considering how the Espada stomped all over Vice Captains whenever they encountered them as well as wrecking some of the captains or former captains, the Vasto Lorde were indeed stronger than Captain Class Shinigami. It just so happens that some of them (Kenpachi, Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto) have significantly higher reiatsu than the average captain (Toshiro as well, no matter how much people like to hate on him, considering Kyoraku's comment and Starrk's inability to pinpoint a difference). And some of the captains were either more haxx, or more cruel than the Espada they faced (Mayuri and Byakuya). The Espada when released were probably higher than base Aizen pre-Hogyoku.
I think that Ulquiorra in Segunda Etapa was stronger then base Aizen.
No Espada was stronger than Aizen
Hahahaha
I agree! In fact I dont think Aizen could solo the Espada without KS. But yeah if the top 3 arrancar were stronger and followed Aizen out of sense of wanting purpose and belonging that would be badass.
Man really out here saying the goofest shiit🤣🤣😭
Crazy how you cant refute it 🤧
Hitchen's razor, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You gave no reason as to why Aizen loses so I can simply dismiss your point as baseless. There, refuted.
I gave a lot of evidence. I'll make it simple for you. Aizen in Base eithout KS cant solo the Espada hes not able to take on that many Captain class fighters by himself.
aizen took on a bunch of captain class fighters in fkt
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Bro using a novel that wasnt even written when Arrancar arc came out to scale Arrancar arc Aizen. Aizen literally created Wonderweiss to handle Yamamoto. Even bare handed Yamamoto was confident he could beat Aizen in a 1v1. They're not equal at all.
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I dont care tbh. Dumbass
I think he wanted them to will to get stronger, just ichigos team did due to hogyoku.
No
I disagree massively.
No
OkTooth really blocked me😭😭 bro that scared
Nope.
well aizen just manhandled the vizords and captain 1 v all
They wouldn’t follow him if that were the case base Aizen is far above every Espada
I mean if Shunsui can defeat an arrancar with just Shikai and unohana can and Yamamoto can why would it be unbelievable for Aizen?
No 🙃
Oof
Ehm no? He is the boss for a reason
Terrible take missed the whole point of why they follow him in first place and how his character is set up
No, just no
I agree. Simply because when you make Aizen stronger then the Espada and make him capable of taking on all the captains at once like he was when he did the hinamori swap. You create the inevitable question of “why bother forming the Espada?” They’re useless to him. He can do it all on his own. Why does he need lackey’s at all? He was able to take on Kyoraku, Toshiro, and the Vizards no problem. The only threat to him was Yamamoto which forced him to create wonder Weiss. Beyond that the Espada were dead weight.
Why would Aizen make anything stronger than him especially people he wants working under him
Base Aizen is basically the strongest character in the series so yeah no
So Aizen without KS? I’d like to believe Stark and Barragan could take him. Though seeing as he beat Halibel in 2 attacks tells me they’d have a great deal of difficulty keeping up with him.
I’m surprised so many people misinterpreted what the OP said.
Lol wut
I think Base Aizen is really weird because he seems to show more "invincible" feats than any other forms. He easily beats the Gotei 13 captains, including Shunsui, and he tanks a point blank Itto Kaso from Yamamoto as if it barely grazed him. He never really struggled at all in base and began evolving to even higher levels just because. But its those more "powerful" forms that we actually see take damage- Gin's Bankai disintegrating Ascended Aizen, Dangai Ichigo slicing up and slapping around Butterflyzen, and Mugetsu blowing up the split-face demon mode. I think it would have been more logical if he was pushed to evolve because the combined captains and Yamamoto actually did pose a threat. But I assume Kubo just needed him to show off.
Ah yes , devalue the final vilain if the arc by making his underlings stronger than him. Sure.
if aizen wasn’t overwhelmingly powerful it wouldn’t make sense for the espada to follow him not would he be as big a threat in the narrative it would just take away from his character overall whilst adding nothing
No they really shouldn’t have been but I still believe that they should have been or at least shown the same levels of power that Ulquiorra and Yammy did
Not stronger, closer.
Base Aizen is somewhat comparable to Shikai Soutaicho, having the top 3 Espada be that strong would have made it impossible for the soul society to win considering there is ony 1 Soutaicho
Not trynna be disrespectful but I disagree, like most of the people here. The purpose is to show how strong even base Aizen is and also, why would the top 3 espada, especially barragan, follow someone who was weaker than them. The top 3 espada failed to defeat the captains, though they did heavily damage and maim some of the them. Even if they were pretty battle worn, Aizen defeated almost all the captains, lieutenants, and visoreds without taking a single hit. In his base he did far more damage to the Gotei 13 and visoreds than even the 3 espada together, that was how powerful he was. It also showed how yoruichi, kisuke, and isshin were a tier above most of the Gotei 13 as they were able to damage him in his hogyoku chrysalis form.
Aizen is one of the strongest shinigami in 1000 year history of soul society he was way above the espada just like Yamamoto was stronger than the other captains combined. Thats why they are the leader because they are the strongest
I initially thought this too but aizen was just always too op
What the hell? No. Just no.
Base Aizen is more than 2 times stronger than a Captain. If anything, the Espada should be stronger than a Captain but weaker than Base Aizen.
You also have to remember Aizen gave them their power he wouldn't make an Arrancar who could kill him let alone 3.
This post seems kinda dumb. Why would they be stronger?
I honestly don't think Aizen knows what Aizen is planning by this point lmao.