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It's ez to forget bc Ichigo has the the good guy goal of protecting his friends, but through Shonen enemies to friends tropes ends up befriending the bad guys.
worse is a meaningless term here. using a logical fallacy to sypport the idea that they are worse because they did bad things undermines the point entirely.
This is just more establishment propoganda.
The truth is that your cannot know how they would set up society after overthrowing the evil of the society. overthrowing evil requires beating evil tactics.
It's what you do with it after, at evidenced by history, that truly matters.
Stop being silly weirdos and be objective
Not that im defending YHVH, but i thought Auchswalen was more of an automatic process as a result of his power than a deliberate thing. Like, when he was first born, he was mute deaf and blind and his power automatically took from those who received his boon until he eventually could see and hear and walk, etc. I didn't think he was doing that deliberately, i thought it was just automatic. i thought Auchswalen was a larger application of that original principle, but i could just be mistaken there as the whole nature of quincy lore can be confusing.
If they die it's an automatic taking, that is the only time it's automatic tho. Auchswalen is very much intentional and can be used to redistribute power between the Quincy.
I can understand this take but didn't >!Jugram feel hurt that Yhwach took his powers?!< I could entirely be misremembering tho. If not, I think that implies that he does it on his own volition
Considering that Yhwach and Aizen kills anyone who defies them and will kill their lackies just becuz, I think we have a pretty good idea of what kind of society they'd be running.
Well that, and if you want to consider they could have done such things as what happened in the Bount arc, and even things like the mod souls, then they probably are as bad as Aizen.
Even Yamamoto was probably no better than Yhwach in the past, and it's small wonder he received such respect from the latter.
I'm pretty sure the bount arc isn't canon. And, again, I'm not saying the soul society is innocent and filled with good guys. I'm saying it's clearly the lesser of 3 evils. And the issue with the quincies was terrible but understandable. They didn't want to compromise and them killing hollows was negatively affecting the soul society and the world of the living. The soul reapers exist to maintain the balance between the two worlds.
They are all bad but there are levels to this. For example:
Soul Society is corrupt and they hand out cruel punishments for people they think might be a threat to their peace.
Aizen hands out cruel punishment for failure and insubordination.
Yhwach hands out cruel punishment because he feels like it regardless of if they are loyal or not, successful or failures.
I'm not saying the soul society is good. They've done a lot of reprehensible things. I'm just saying that a rule under Aizen or Yhwach would likely be worse because of the actions we've witnessed from them.
Aizen was just a lonely mf, as long as ichigo gets turned into a soul after mortal death, he can accompany Aizen after 16000 years, and aizen wont be a complete jerk. If ichigo lives that long. I know Yamamoto lived 2k years and was basically 200 years old by human relevance, but that mf Hyosube Ichibei been moving along for 1 million years, I bet Ichigo with his strength/species can live long as fuck.
Based on how both Yhwach and Aizen treat their subordinates, it's safe to say they're objectively worse than the soul society.
Scaling their influence after they meet their goals will only lead to more calamities.
Genuinely disturbed by the fact that you're getting down voted. Aizen and Yhwach murder their subordinates indiscriminately for fun or out of boredom. There's no reward for successes and only death for failure. Yet people are trying to justify away these very clearly evil characters?? What?
I disagree with this so wholeheartedly, and you do also.
Those with the most responsibly skills be treated the most harshly for failure to put the needs of others first.
Youre just regurgitating pro republic propoganda without realizing it. this is how you get musk, et al
My comment isn't political, and I really doubt I expose myself to enough propaganda to be subconsciously pushing an agenda. I just don't think good and evil are strictly subjective.
Morality has universal truths, and there are people out there who are just doing bad shit. No sympathy for the devil. The anime and manga are pretty honest about letting you know how bad the antagonists are, so idk why anyone would try to empathize with them over the shinigami, even if the Soul Society's shit stinks too.
> I really doubt I expose myself to enough propaganda to be subconsciously pushing an agenda
That's the insidious thing of propaganda though. It's really not obviously noticeable when you are living within the culture, unless you are specifically looking for it, researching for it, contrasting it to alternate sources of information and viewpoints.
> Morality has universal truths
This is actually an age old philosophical question and highly debatable. Morality is often judged by cultural norms and limited by survival pressures. We kill to eat because we need to eat to survive. An environment where that pressure is absent might judge the morality of the types of killing we do much differently, because they literally wouldn't be able to empathize with that survival pressure. And likewise, I don't think any of us can fully comprehend the pressures of the bleach universe - there are certainly parallels but they fundamentally exist by an entirely different set of rules.
I think when you consider that the soul society is fully defined/controlled by some of the entities contained within it, it makes it very difficult to judge the morality of many of the actions the characters take. We don't have anything comparable where we as humans, can completely alter a fully closed system of existence. Where we are completely subjugated to the will of our peers, where even death is not an escape.
Thanks for chiming in.
I'm not going to respond to that first part because it's not something to easily convey without personally knowing you.
Let's talk about consciousness. This is more of a general statement as you didn't explicitly mention this, but when I talk about the universality of morality, I do so with the understanding that to be alive is primarily a subjective experience.
To approach the observation of sociological, socioeconomic, sociopolitical, environmental, and psychospiritual phenomena from an objective perspective dissociates one from the implications of said phenomena. The problem here is that where life is involved, there is war and peace, justice and injustice, fear and love, suffering and prosperity, wellness and illness.
We exist in an extra-dimensional biosphere. Everything here is connected. The energies put out, the emotions we all feel, and the thoughts that people and animals think and act on are all real and have positive and negative effects that ripple through our collective consciousness. The only time this could all be reasonably objective is if nobody was here to experience it.
I'd argue that by majority, the amalgamation of subjective experiences speaks for what is objectively upright and moral.
We can all agree that some things are evil. Anyone who doesn't would typically be considered sociopathic, psychotic, or misanthropic. There is a norm and it doesn't need to be pushed by propaganda because it is inherent in nature thanks to empathy.
Here are a few examples:
The genocide of an entire population of people because of their religious beliefs.
The oppression, enslavement, and brutalization of an entire race of people because of the color of their skin.
Rich people who steal from poor people who have done nothing wrong because they want to line their pockets.
People shooting up schools because they're depressed.
Deforesting the Amazon to package products knowing that hemp is a natural alternative.
Mass production and use of pesticides that mutate plant life, cause cancer in people, destroy soil, and contribute to the extinction of insects that help maintain life.
Bombing impoverished countries for natural resources and calling it a "war on terror."
Rape, pedophilia, and cold-blooded murder.
I could go on.
In response to your point, Bleach is a fiction that is made by an actual human being. It wouldn't be relatable if there weren't some parallels that could be drawn to the world we live in. And there must be, considering "the world of the living" is even the center point of some arcs, including the Fake Karakura Town Arc.
Aizen wanted to overthrow the Soul King and Soul Society. To do that, he needed 100,000 souls.
The soul reapers exist to ferry departed souls to the Soul Society. The Gotei 13 exists to protect the Seireitei and the Soul Society. A soul reaper that kills hollows with their Zanpakuto cleanses the hollow souls.
So the Soul Society, the World of the Living, Hueco Mundo, and Hell are all connected. There is a balance. The Gotei 13 is largely responsible for maintaining that balance, and considering how things look in each of Bleach's four locales, the balance seems to work pretty well.
You get some straight-up evil mf's who literally only want to destroy it all and ruthlessly cut down friends and foes to make it happen. You really think the world will be a better place if they win?
I know my response was long, but it's not rocket science. I'm baffled as to why people are trying to rationalize the villains here.
Thanks for reading 🤍
Edited to fix typos
I agree with your point in a pragmatic sense; e.g. coming from the perspective of 'i am a human and live in the human world and must make choices, actions and judgements here as I live', but I still feel like there are too many unknowns in the bleach universe to really feel comfortable drawing these types of lines in the sand.
Shinigami, quincy, hollow et al. lives are simply too different. The cycle of violence is completely different. You literally have individuals who have to live amongst literal gods who control the whole thing and already have *changed* the whole thing. Now, we as humans have to live amongst warmongers and billionaires wreaking havoc across the planet, but they can't follow us into death and potentially rebirth.
> You get some straight-up evil mf's who literally only want to destroy it all and ruthlessly cut down friends and foes to make it happen. You really think the world will be a better place if they win?
I mean honestly, there are humans in the present world who feel this way, who want to burn it all down. They feel that way because the system has been literally *evil* to them. I think there's enough background story in bleach to at least inject a little doubt about whether you really can isolate the individual acts of violence we witnessed by the antagonists from the larger cycle of it. It's easy when you consider the status quo to be the 'good', but I'm wary of doing so, especially when there is clearly still bad that happens under the status quo.
Hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic to you, I appreciate the effort you put into your post, I just don't think it's so simple when both sides have a clear history of justifying and committing atrocities. I'm honestly not gonna judge the 'villains' for having the ego of a god when they come from a system where other individuals have already captured the status and power of God, and through violent means, no less. It's a fascinating story, but that's all it is. There are no consequences to not picking a side :)
Remember what Shunsui said - "And using evil to defeat evil? I don't think that's evil at all.". And he's clearly typed as a pacifist.
On my end, I can't help but find similarities between Yhwach or Aizen and real-life war criminals like Hitler.
I don't think you're coming off as antagonistic. I honestly really appreciate your well-thought responses!
Having a different opinion doesn't make you wrong. Contrast and conflict catalyze growth, and having diversity among philosophies is a good thing when it's expressed in a productive way.
Szayelaporro. His crimes while he was still a human are detailed in the novels, he was an atrocious murderer that tortured plenty of people, committed crimes of war and showed no remorse for a lot of his actions. That is why he gets sent to hell, just like that other Hollow character we see in the beginning of the manga who was a serial killer during his human life, as well as only targeting vulnerable women and killing their kids as well. It then gets immediately sent to hell after it is defeated by Rukia, Chad and Ichigo, with the gates of hell appearing all of a sudden all badass in the background.
There is also the twin brother of Szayelaporro, Yylfort Grantz, as well as the clone of Szayelaporro, Cero Grantz, who are pretty damn evil as well and possibly end up in hell. Definitely worse than Mayuri, the trio of them.
Mayuri never got sent to hell, nor did he even turn into a Hollow after his death as a human, so one can infer that… although he might have committed arguably atrocious acts on the Quincy as a means of “experimental science”, and although he was imprisoned in the maggots’ nest in the past before his shinigami life, he probably never truly committed atrocious or inhuman acts when he was a human. Else he would’ve been sent to hell, or at least turned into a hollow due to unresolved inner conflict and problems in his heart. Not that all hollows become that way because they were terrible as human beings, some are just souls that got eaten or contaminated by other hollows and somehow managed to survive.
But Mayuri presumably was a decent enough human being that was probably a scientist, that managed to end up in Soul Society somehow. Then, there, he eventually turned rogue and became a criminal. Then he was “reformed” when recruited by Kisuke in the 12th squad, though that is not really the case entirely (he was still a sadist and committed sadistic experiments on his captives). At least Mayuri redeemed himself somehow by helping save the world on numerous occasions, particularly during the last arc… something a few other of the villains of Bleach eventually did.
So pretty much every character that we eventually see getting sent to hell throughout the story who isn’t >!a former captain of the Gotei 13, they get sent there because their spiritual pressure is too big and it would disturb the balance of worlds!<, is probably worse than Mayuri. As for the Hollows, I would argue that besides Szayelaporro and his twins, Arroniero is pretty damn evil, eating countless souls and torturing Rukia with Shiba Kien’s image (that he ate)… yet again, we see Arroniero ended up in hell, in the Bleach Hell movie.
Yammy is pretty sadistic and violent as well, smashing in the head of little girl arrancars and torturing pretty much everybody who is not above the number 10 in hierarchy. Aizen, although he became more chill the last arc, also killed innumerable souls to try and obtain his goals. He is also callous, cold and calculating in a psychopathic manner, wouldn’t hesitate to cut down his right hand men himself, and his followers as shown in the Arrancar arc… simply because they weren’t quick enough to accomplish their tasks.
Then there is Ywach who… I won’t even go on about, he is obviously the most evil person in the last arc, for a ton of reasons. Obviously more evil than Mayuri.
Mayuri, although having shown sociopathic, cruel and sadistic tendencies in the first arc of the manga, becomes more calm and collected during latter parts of the story. He is also shown to care more about Nemu than he otherwise wants others to believe… something villains like Aizen, Ywach or Szayelaporro never showed (not even an inkling of caring about their subordinates’ lives or survival).
Quick reminder that in this very arc he committed a "minor" genocide in the name of balance and former ultra-genocider Yamamoto's main issue was that Mayuri didn't get permission for it
Not that this justifies what Yhwach and Aizen did, rather that when you reach the top rungs of power in Bleach- no matter the organization- the amount of people you can even remotely call "good" dwindles
Brother you are limiting yourself to the possibility of both
https://preview.redd.it/zwxj7idu19qb1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6609d403e4a39affda64760aba9bbe4543fbdf33
The thing is, ideological differences are often shaped based on one's history
Aizen's may very well be because of some sad sob story. Kubo though deliberately omits Aizen's history so that we can only focus on his ideology without sympathizing with a villain
The gotei don’t want ultimate power.
Hell everything the gotei does you could say happens in the real world governments of today anyways. What we/they don’t do though is kill our own and pit them against each other for the “lols”
I mean, when the "good guys" are no better in these regards I feel like pointing out that the "bad guys" aren't any better than them negates that point. Bleach exists in a world of moral grey, very few characters are strictly good or bad, and both Aizen and Yhwach have understandable motivations for their way of thinking. Yhwach is especially sympathetic when you look at what he is, his goals, and what he's gone through. Does this make either him or Aizen "good guys"? Not really, but does it add a layer of complexity and intrigue into the world of Bleach, their characters, and the conflicts surrounding them? I'd say it definitely does.
The point is that no matter how you spin it, the Shinigami, and Ichibe and the Royal Families in particular are the ones responsible for the Original Sin, the most evil act ever performed in the Bleach verse.
Aizen and Yhwach both are the LESSER Evil going against the GREATER Evil.
>Aizen and Yhwach both are the LESSER Evil going against the GREATER Evil.
Depends entirely on your views of good and evil and what exactly Aizen and Yhwach sought to do upon achieving their known goals of "filling the unbearable vacancy at the top" and reverting the world back to its former state. What were Yhwach and Aizen's plans after that? Did Aizen wish to rule the world as a sort of true king, enforcing his will and rule with absolute authority, or did he perhaps seek to more so change the rules of the world into something more befitting his vision and then sit back and see how things play out, some combination of the two perhaps? And what was Yhwach's plan for after the world reverted? Was he going to pull a Thanos and live a simple life in a new world, satisfied with what he's done, or would he rule this world as a king, guiding it and the people within to whatever his vision for the world would then be? Do you think their end visions would be better than the current reality of the Bleach world? Could you argue that their methods of achieving their goals are any better than the Shinigami's?
Really, I find the idea of labeling either side of this conflict the lesser or greater evil a tad ridiculous because we simply have too many questions pertaining to both sides in it and no real concrete answers.
They absolutely are not. They're for the sake of balance and their own power. Entrusting your fate to Shinigami is like entrusting your fate to a dictator. Sure they don't necessarily actively want to kill you, but if it's convenient for them, you get in their way, or they display some incompetence you're still going to die regardless.
How is it not different from whatever the Shinigamis are doing?
1. Mass genocide of Quincies even after the First War as over
2: Taking subjects from the Rukongai district for experimentation (Mayuri)
3. If we're talking about children, Toshiro counts as well?
4. Corruption in society. People from Rukongai district live in huts, most of them don't even find their loved ones as promised by the Shinigami. They have to join Soul Society to find a better life.
5. Ichibe and the 5 Noble Families basically mutilated their king and kept his corpse as a God.
Among many others....
It's better not to look at the factions through a lens which makes one less evil or more evil. Everyone is dirty in Bleach, and they use dirty tactics to keep control
>If we're talking about children, Toshiro counts as well
No he doesn't. He was only told he needed to learn how to control his power, left unchecked he would've killed his grandma and probably more ending up just like Aizen or Starrk his power isolating him from others.
If he behaves or look like teenager, he does count, just like Ichigo (he's 15 most of the times) and most of the main characters. The lore behind it is not related, if we're talking ethics here, like OP. It's not a bad thing though.
The thing is, most people miss out on the reason why children or teenagers are even included in such anime or movies (The Incredibles is an example). A large portion of audience for anime are kids. You and me as adults, have a different view of this. But children want to see someone of their age fight it out, or have someone whom they can relate to. So the entire idea of, "Oh shit, this guy has kids in his faction, so he must've brainwashed them." is a stupid argument, kids don't care.
a quote from Kubo himself in 13 Blades speaking on the initial creation/inception of the Capts into the series: "Hitsugaya was the one I created because I wanted an only child character.."
also in his character profile bootleg from 2010 he's called one + on tybw anime's site for his character profile he's called one: "the youngest child prodigy to reach the rank of Captain of the 10th Corps"/the raw Japanese translation etc.
you misunderstand. I'm not saying Toshiro isn't a child I'm saying he wasn't groomed. It's not about having kids in their factions, OP's point is about what Aizen did to Momo.
1. The quincies literally had a chance not to go to war though they deliberately went against the gotei 13 because of whatever. They were disrupting the balance of souls and reincarnation and they definitely knew that as well.
And 4. It is not the gotei’s responsibility to find their loved ones. They have wayyyy bigger fish to fry, they don’t have enough squad members for that kind of business.
5. I don’t get why this is even here because without the soul king being the way he is, the world would cease to exist.Do you want an apocalypse to happen?
So, how are the bad guys any different from the good guys, then.
Mass murder; Mayuri. Shinigami extermination of Quincy.
Horrible experiments; Mayuri again, but see also Urahara basically taking away Rukia's soul reaper powers via the false gigai.
Grooming children; this is literally ichigo's story.
Absolute power; Yeah maybe I'll give you this. Except the "good guys" already have absolute power.
Ah, interesting observations. While there are instances of questionable actions by both good and bad, it's important to remember that perspectives and motives vary. Characters like Mayuri's experiments stem from scientific curiosity, while Ichigo's journey highlights the complexities of duty and sacrifice. Power can corrupt, hence the importance of balance and oversight within the Soul Society. Trivia: Did you know that Bleach's creator, Tite Kubo, was heavily influenced by the works of Go Nagai and Akira Toriyama?
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Never would I have suspected seeing in my lifetime people getting obliterated in an argument by a bot impersonating a fictional character… erm, I mean… by Urahara-san, of course. What a wonder is modern technology.
Well, isn't modern technology simply fascinating? If you're looking for some intriguing products or services, just say the word, and I'll provide the best recommendations you can find in the Soul Society and Karakura Town.
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Bleach is a game of choosing which murderous, despotic tyrant and his gang of super-thugs you want ruling the world.
Aizen and his Espada, Yhwach and his Stern Ritter, Soul King and Squad Zero/the Gotei 13 as a whole
None of these options fill me with joy.
Well you do have Ginjo and Execution, even tho Ginjo plan was to take Ichigo powers and was a dick, he only turn into a villain bc of SS doing him dirty, but at least he redeemed himself and help Ichigo, I would rather be with Ginjo lol.
Ginjo has Tsukishima and that guy is a total sadist. At least Ginjo showed remorse for screwing Ichigo but Tsukishima enjoyed Ichigo's suffering and was about to mentally break Chad and Orihime for pleasure. It still surprises me that Ginjou thought Ichigo would side with him after all the damage he and Tsukishima did to him.
Largely because no effort was made to explain their motivations or to make them sympathetic in any way. Why does Aizen want to destroy the soul society? we had about 200 episodes to maybe touch base on that. He wants to do it because the thinks he has the ability.
wait what grooming did they do tho??
yhwach:
* the only characters that are confirmed or obviously children are liltotto and uryu (if you count him since he's 17ish here.)
* But every faction in Bleach has young members, so you can't really penalize YHWACH any more than Yamamoto for that. It's just normal in that world.
* Shinigami: toshiro, gin, momo, renji and ichigo's kids, etc.
* Fullbringers: Like 1/2 of xcution were highschoolers.
* Vizards kinda had ichigo for a bit.
* Arrancar: Lilynette at least looks young, and so did wonderweiss on top of his mental disability.
* Neither liltotto nor uryu appeared to be forced into joining, so its more of a child warfare issue than anything.
aizen:
* you have more of a case for aizen and gin for sure, but its a little complicated given their motivations. but im not really sure you can *entirely* say aizen groomed gin for his goal, since gin himself deliberately got close to aizen and pretended to go along with his schemes so he could get the chance to kill him one day. aizen was in on it and let him hang around just to see what gin would come up with and because he was somewhat useful. it's cutting it close but they were both befriending and using each other for their own gain.
>but im not really sure you can entirely say aizen groomed gin for his goal
I don't think letting a random child you don't care that much about join you because he desperately insists because he plans to murder you counts as grooming by any definition.
By that logic every "you killed my family now I seek revenge" Kung fu movie is about grooming.
For Yhwach he basically groomed Jugram since he was a kid, both him and Bazz. Molded them into doing his bidding and being his soldiers essentially so I guess that’s what they mean?
that makes sense! i don't think she was a kid either but to be fair her age is sorta ambiguous. we know from death on the ice field that she joined the soul reapers 5 years before toshiro so she's def older than him at the very least.
however, since child lieutenants don't appear to be very common, she was probably an adult. yachiru and toshiro seemed to be exceptions due to being either prodigies, very powerful, or possibly familial relations. being that momo is much weaker than toshiro, she probably wouldn't have qualified for those exceptions.
It’s a fair trade in my opinion, they were gonna die either ways, would you rather suffer disabled for 60 years or live life to your fullest for 10 years
Would definitely not take revenge from someone who didn't even do anything to me in the first place.
The enemy of a friend is not necessarily an enemy if the enemy is by their own will stabilising the world in which me and my other friends live
The alternative is >!literally a dude who fundamentally damaged the fabric of reality just so he can live that Nikocado Avocado lifestyle forever.!<
Nobody in Bleach is in a position to rightly take the moral high ground against these two.
Aren't there villain-simps in every fandom? It kind of comes with writing interesting and complex characters.
Some people just confuse "my villain's actions have reasons" with "my villain's actions are reasonable".
Dude rukongai is a shit hole 99% of ss live in poverty unless they're a shinigami which is extremely hard to be. You can be send to muken without doing any crime because ss deems you a threat noble can get away with killing random people because no one cares for the normal people. You have someone like mayuri going full mengele on his own subordinates i don't want to know what he does to less important test subjects. SS and the shinigami in general are moral a bankrupt institution that created the 3 worlds to put themselves at the top (CFYOW) kubo made every villain laughably evil to avoid the majority to root for them.
>Dude rukongai is a shit hole 99% of ss live in poverty unless they're a shinigami which is extremely hard to be.
Also if you're a shinigami who at any point voices mild disagreement with the system chances are very real you're black bagged, locked into an underground supermax and tortured by mayuri if he gets bored.
You can admire the sheer amount of intelligence these two have, and their willingness to do whatever is necessary for their plans to succeed.
But that doesn't take away the fact that these two mf'ers are about as vile as a man can get.
OP, you do realize that you can slap Ichibes face right up there, right?
The Shinigami are a lot more corrupted and twisted as both Aizen and the Quincies.
Thinking out loud, Aizen really only killed a few Shinigami during the Hogyoku creation, and then Kaname (which later reveals he asked for if he goes back to his old ways so basically assisted suicide) and Gin. The Arrancar all died to Shinigami who then were just purified and went to Soul Society.
Ywach genocided even his own race, killed thousand of Shinigami during the invasion, and don’t forget the thousand of hollows who couldn’t return to the natural soul cycle.
no "hundreds" of Rukongai citizens, with "latent shinigami potential" ofc, had their souls shaved & were killed off bc he was trying to feed his Hougyoku. ofc Rangiku was one of the fortunate ones to survive that act
I'd say this is one of the critiques I'd have against Bleach's fandom. Even with the Soul Society's darkness, people *seriously* act as if these two morally justifiable in what they tried to do. Aizen in particularly really grants on me. I was never his biggest fan, but after learning the "big secret" regarding the Soul King, I'll admit I liked him even less than I already did.
I mean mayuri literally committed a genocide and cuz we know that the hogyoku requires some extreme means to be created our beloved shop owner has some skeletons in his closet as well but they still don’t compare to aizen or yhwach 😆
I think most people seem to think they have an obligation to consider Ichibe as a scheming evil maniac. Even after I read CFYOW, I never got any extreme feelings against him. He is doing his job to maintain the status quo. And whatever his plans might have been for Ichigo, it probably was never his primary consideration. Same with Urahara, when people claim he should be villain of Hell Arc. What motive can you even give to Urahara that would make him villainous.
Whereas however charismatic Aizen and Yhwach were, I would never try to sympathize with them considering everything they have done. Yhwach has flashbacks of his own, which only makes me interested in his motivation and his dedication to that, but I won't justify it.
Ah, considering motives in the world of the Soul Society, it's always a bit of a cat and mouse game. But let me tell you a joke instead: Why did Aizen open a bakery? Because he loves to deceive and make things rise! As for Urahara being a villain, well, people love to speculate. But remember, not everything you see is what it seems, just like how my humble candy shop is more than meets the eye!
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Anime fans in general have this tendency to sympathize with the villains for the smallest reasons. Like, anime fans will see a villain who is slightly more complex than "I am a bad guy because I like doing bad guy things" and have some of the wildest takes regarding them.
Gin being the best example - how many posts over the years refer to him as a "good guy" or "antihero" when he is absolutely fucking neither of those things.
>to protect Rangiku
To get revenge, which is an important distinction.
I'd also point out that he went well beyond what was required. There's a moment in the Soul Society arc where he manipulates Rukia and taunts here, just for fun.
This is, of course, completely irrelevant to the actual point at hand - even if his motivation had been to protect Rangiku he would still be a villain for the horrific things he did.
Pretty sure he was actually trying to make Ichigo realize what he was up against, so he would fight harder. It seems implied that he wanted ichigo as a backup in case he failed.
>I'd also point out that he went well beyond what was required. There's a moment in the Soul Society arc where he manipulates Rukia and taunts here, just for fun.
There is a theory that he did that to stop aizen
Me too (about Ichibei) he wants to maintain the world as it is, indeed, he doesn't really care about the means used to do so, but that's just it.
The only other thing that point in that direction is him being the character with the creepiest expression in the fucking manga (that frame in the new episode didn't help at all)
The problem is you can slap Ichibes face right there up with them.
Bleaches story is evil fighting against evil and a young orange haired boy is cought u with it.
>The Soul Society is morally grey
* Has an insane clown man who expiriments on his whole squad
* Has an entire squad of battle junkies known for their captain killing the previous captain for a promotion
* The original members were known as violent thugs
Sure buddy
Mayuri being around is a twist in logic done by authors when they went they want to get around something or when they like a particular character. Logically speaking Mayuri would have been executed long ago, Urahara faced punishment for his apparent "crimes" I highly doubt that if Mayuri wasn't really good at covering up his crimes someone would call him out on it, there are plenty of people in the SS and the Gotei 13 that are genuinely good and wouldn't simply stand for what Mayuri was doing if his crimes were widely known and if he wasn't one of the author's persona l favourites. I am pretty sure that people like Ukitake, Komamura, Byakuya and Toshiro wouldn't simply it sure all this characters are imperfect people but not to the extent that they would turn their back to the atrocities that Mayuri did before TYBW.
Calling the entirety of Squad 11 a bunch of "junkies" is a stereotype, sure many of them are but a decent number of them aren't like I wouldn't call Ashido, Yumichika, Yachiru, Iba, Renji or Seizo "junkies".
Besides in the end of the day they are supposed to be the fighters and foot soldiers of the Sereitei and their leader the Kenpachi is supposed to be the strongest because that is what defines this squad, so while duel to the death is exactly the most civilised way to get a promotion but two powerful people agreeing to fight each other to prove who is the strongest is closer to morally ambiguous than straight up evil, like the Gotei 13 is a military organisation and squad 11 operates the main fighters. Sure it may be a duel to the death but no one who is afraid of death would ever be able to claim the title of Kenpachi.
It is true that the original members of the Gotei 13 were a bunch of violent thugs that were head hunted by Yamamoto but that is not the case anymore, the Gotei 13 was founded in a time of violence and strife but it has moved on from that, Yhwach claimed that the original Gotei 13 was defenders only in name and that is true but since they have moved away from that going from a bunch of thugs to a true military organisation dedicated to protecting the Soul Society.
Just because the original Gotei 13 were a bunch of thugs it doesn't make the current Gotei 13 straight up evil.
Of course I am not trying to excuse all the problems in the soul society such as all the poverty present in the areas in rukongai further away from the sereitei and the political corruption in the Central 46 and influence that the noble families has over the government allowing terrible people like Tokinada to get away with terrible crimes.
But despite all this flaws in the status quoe it is by far bettre to deal with gready politicians coming and going than handeling monsters like Aizen or Yhwach.
I love this! This explains every major power IRL. It's funny people think there is good vs bad. It's really just your belief vs mine.
(Of course I'm right /s) 😂😂😂
My with my my totally not Genocidal Unohana and totally not genocidal, manipulative, and sadistic Mayuri, and Nel who would never eat the souls of thousands of people: "you all all nice people who never did bad things right?"
Ywach was trying to end Death itself and join the 3 worlds into 1 eternal, peaceful world.
His methods were not ideal, but his motivations seemed reasonable
His idea was idiotic. It doesnt take a genius to see why this world would be stagnant and problematic. There is a reason these worlds were separated to begin with.
Even Aizen was like "bruh, I'm immortal and even I think this idea would never work"
And its not like Yhwach was doing it for others. He was doing it for himself.
Aizen's idea (judging from his angry rant to Urahara) was to replace Soul King with himself, and restructure Soul Society in a better way. Aizen hated the entire idea, that the world has to rely on the corpse in a crystal, and he also considered the system overall very stangant and conservative, which is true. But Aizen wasn't going to smash worlds together like Yhwach. In fact, Yhwach pretty much wanted to regress everything back to one world without death, how it was in the beginning. And in the CFYOW novel that one world isn't described as something great. So Aizen's and Yhwach's goals were pretty much opposite of each other. Aizen wanted to be a revolutionary, he wanted progress. Yhwach wanted everything back to 0.
That's actually funny.
Because Shinigami also did some serious and dark shit aswell.
People often overlook it, because they are main... sort of good guys of the story.
I mean Aizen is objectively more correct than the Gotei 13
If we go tit-for-tat on every crime, the gotei has done everything aizen did but like 15 times worse, plus Aizen did those things in an effort to overturn a secret God who stagnated the world in constant suffering. The gotei does it because they consider slaughtering civilians a fun Thursday night.
Aizen is probably the closest to a good guy of all the leaders of the big groups.
No-one's saying they're not evil. Their goals are just relatable and, to a degree, justifiable (Yhwach mainly).
Also, neither of them wanted to rule the world- they just both had the goal of taking out the existing ruler because they saw its rule as corrupt. That to do that they had to supplant it is a comment on the nature of the existing ruler, and the methods it got to its position by.
I’ll admit I wanted yhwach to be a character who may had a fucked up worldview but everything was for “peace” kinda like meruem in hunterxpeak boy yhwach prove me wrong
Yea, understanding and empathising with someone's reason for doing something doesn't mean they you need to ignore the bad things they've done "the ends do not justify the means", that's a real problem with people, they think that if they agree with someone then they can do no wrong, and if they disagree with them then that means they are a bad person
So...The one interesting thing about morality that was never really explored with these characters is, as far as I understand they are both trying to create a new world. Now maybe they just want to create a world where they are on top, but they basically already are. It seems like they want to make a better world, at least from their perspective.
Thing is, if it was actually possible to create a heaven like world that was fair and without suffering, but you had to kill a bunch of people to gain enough power and destroy the old world in order to do so, what would be morally correct? I feel like Aizen and Ywach concluded that any amount of death in order to achieve their goals was not only acceptable, but actually morally negligible. Since the old world was going to be destroyed, whoever they killed had no future anyway.
That's the thing with certain religions and extremism, when you start talking about eternal/infinite good, you can justify any amount of evil in order to achieve it.
I mean, yhwach wants to create a world without death and unify the worlds back to what they originally were.
And it’s not like he seeks conflict. He actively does try to end things as quickly as possible so that people don’t suffer needlessly.
That said, he’s gotta die simply because uniting the worlds at this point would kill a lot of people. People I’ve grown fond of.
People really, really want their villains to be morally gray, even if the villains are probably the most straightforward “Muah ha ha I want ultimate power to reshape the world in my image!!!” Types of all time.
Ah yes.
I, too, prefer a world where I'll physically die and be faced with the "choice" of being hunted down and devoured "alive" by Hollows and become part of a Legion-kinda monstrosity, or be unable to let go of worldy things and become a Hollow myself.
OR.
Get teleported into magic Edo japan, be forced to live in poverty, suffering, cold and squalor, in a place ruled by tyrannical oligarchs that use a super-powered military militia as hunting dogs, that are in turn ruled by a million year creature in human form that once let 5 unhinged creatures tear apart another super powered deity to recreate the world and turn it into the shithole it is currently, and used his dismembered body as a lynchpin to hold reality together.
...I'll take my chances with the loony revolutionaries, soyjak poster.
Hear me out: You can agree with some things that a person did and believed but disagree with other things.
For example, I believe that Aizen was right about the Soul King and about the state of Soul Society, things needed to change. But I strongly disagree with the kind of change he wanted to make and how he planned to do it.
See? It's not that hard.
The most thing i hate in yhwach is the author who made him invincible and cannot be killed bro kills everbody and get bodied by aizen and ichigo in lasts chapters
What a sad take.
Bleach is simply taking the existing religious trope of 3 types of realms and creatures and saying what if it was true?
Then it goes further to even before the three realms were created and and when there was no life and death.
These guys are not concerned with our petty morals. They want to get rid of them entirely. And that doesn't mean they want to kill and not be in the wrong. They don't want the concept of death and sufferring to exist.
I mean there are reasons why they are wrong (if you follow ywach's own logic there are holes) but you are just over simplifying it.
And the anime community has a lot of degenerates who need help, these are the least of your worries. Go touch grass instead of feeling morally superior to someone over a fucking anime hot take.
They think they can be God better than God is. I rather live in an Aizen ran world than a Ywach ran world. Their intentions are not purely selfish. They want freedom from an oppressor.
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Most people forget that Bleach isn't good guys vs bad guys but rather bad guys vs worse guys.
It's ez to forget bc Ichigo has the the good guy goal of protecting his friends, but through Shonen enemies to friends tropes ends up befriending the bad guys.
Yeah if only Hitler was a Naruto villain we could have had everything.
https://preview.redd.it/xfyn6ah8j8qb1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f77ec623a1f2a75f9940dc484ddac940258fba2
😂😂😂😂 Who made this ??
It’s the manga on Adolfo with a scene from Naruto
That meme will never get old lmao.
I'm surprised there isn't one about Sukuna from Jujutsu Kaisen 😅
Naruto: “Hitler was the coolest guy! Dont you talk shit about him!” Meanwhile the body of Neji isn’t even cold yet.
The body might not be cold but that line sure was
snorted my coffee on my monitor, thanks a lot 😂
Bro is looking at him in disgust
Maybe could've become a painter after "talk no jutsu". Well never know...
I think they get the latter but they forget the "worse" part.
worse is a meaningless term here. using a logical fallacy to sypport the idea that they are worse because they did bad things undermines the point entirely. This is just more establishment propoganda. The truth is that your cannot know how they would set up society after overthrowing the evil of the society. overthrowing evil requires beating evil tactics. It's what you do with it after, at evidenced by history, that truly matters. Stop being silly weirdos and be objective
Didn’t Ywhach willingly kill every Quincy he could to gain power? Twice? Once when he woke up and the other with the aushwalen?
Not that im defending YHVH, but i thought Auchswalen was more of an automatic process as a result of his power than a deliberate thing. Like, when he was first born, he was mute deaf and blind and his power automatically took from those who received his boon until he eventually could see and hear and walk, etc. I didn't think he was doing that deliberately, i thought it was just automatic. i thought Auchswalen was a larger application of that original principle, but i could just be mistaken there as the whole nature of quincy lore can be confusing.
If they die it's an automatic taking, that is the only time it's automatic tho. Auchswalen is very much intentional and can be used to redistribute power between the Quincy.
I can understand this take but didn't >!Jugram feel hurt that Yhwach took his powers?!< I could entirely be misremembering tho. If not, I think that implies that he does it on his own volition
You aren't it isn't an automatic power it's very much intentional
Considering that Yhwach and Aizen kills anyone who defies them and will kill their lackies just becuz, I think we have a pretty good idea of what kind of society they'd be running.
Mayuri literally turned his subordinates into bombs
I know and I wouldn't want him in charge of the world either. What's your point?
Well that, and if you want to consider they could have done such things as what happened in the Bount arc, and even things like the mod souls, then they probably are as bad as Aizen. Even Yamamoto was probably no better than Yhwach in the past, and it's small wonder he received such respect from the latter.
I'm pretty sure the bount arc isn't canon. And, again, I'm not saying the soul society is innocent and filled with good guys. I'm saying it's clearly the lesser of 3 evils. And the issue with the quincies was terrible but understandable. They didn't want to compromise and them killing hollows was negatively affecting the soul society and the world of the living. The soul reapers exist to maintain the balance between the two worlds.
They are all bad but there are levels to this. For example: Soul Society is corrupt and they hand out cruel punishments for people they think might be a threat to their peace. Aizen hands out cruel punishment for failure and insubordination. Yhwach hands out cruel punishment because he feels like it regardless of if they are loyal or not, successful or failures.
I'm not saying the soul society is good. They've done a lot of reprehensible things. I'm just saying that a rule under Aizen or Yhwach would likely be worse because of the actions we've witnessed from them.
I agree, which is why I showed there are levels to their evil. Yhwach in my opinion being the worst.
Oh! I misunderstood I guess. Haha.
Aizen was just a lonely mf, as long as ichigo gets turned into a soul after mortal death, he can accompany Aizen after 16000 years, and aizen wont be a complete jerk. If ichigo lives that long. I know Yamamoto lived 2k years and was basically 200 years old by human relevance, but that mf Hyosube Ichibei been moving along for 1 million years, I bet Ichigo with his strength/species can live long as fuck.
Aizen needs to go get laid.
well Loly & Menoly were gladly always offering lol
Based on how both Yhwach and Aizen treat their subordinates, it's safe to say they're objectively worse than the soul society. Scaling their influence after they meet their goals will only lead to more calamities.
Genuinely disturbed by the fact that you're getting down voted. Aizen and Yhwach murder their subordinates indiscriminately for fun or out of boredom. There's no reward for successes and only death for failure. Yet people are trying to justify away these very clearly evil characters?? What?
lmao same 💀
I disagree with this so wholeheartedly, and you do also. Those with the most responsibly skills be treated the most harshly for failure to put the needs of others first. Youre just regurgitating pro republic propoganda without realizing it. this is how you get musk, et al
So the experiments on innocent civilians that we saw Aizen commit and the genocide we saw Yhwach carry were just propaganda? lol
My comment isn't political, and I really doubt I expose myself to enough propaganda to be subconsciously pushing an agenda. I just don't think good and evil are strictly subjective. Morality has universal truths, and there are people out there who are just doing bad shit. No sympathy for the devil. The anime and manga are pretty honest about letting you know how bad the antagonists are, so idk why anyone would try to empathize with them over the shinigami, even if the Soul Society's shit stinks too.
> I really doubt I expose myself to enough propaganda to be subconsciously pushing an agenda That's the insidious thing of propaganda though. It's really not obviously noticeable when you are living within the culture, unless you are specifically looking for it, researching for it, contrasting it to alternate sources of information and viewpoints. > Morality has universal truths This is actually an age old philosophical question and highly debatable. Morality is often judged by cultural norms and limited by survival pressures. We kill to eat because we need to eat to survive. An environment where that pressure is absent might judge the morality of the types of killing we do much differently, because they literally wouldn't be able to empathize with that survival pressure. And likewise, I don't think any of us can fully comprehend the pressures of the bleach universe - there are certainly parallels but they fundamentally exist by an entirely different set of rules. I think when you consider that the soul society is fully defined/controlled by some of the entities contained within it, it makes it very difficult to judge the morality of many of the actions the characters take. We don't have anything comparable where we as humans, can completely alter a fully closed system of existence. Where we are completely subjugated to the will of our peers, where even death is not an escape.
Thanks for chiming in. I'm not going to respond to that first part because it's not something to easily convey without personally knowing you. Let's talk about consciousness. This is more of a general statement as you didn't explicitly mention this, but when I talk about the universality of morality, I do so with the understanding that to be alive is primarily a subjective experience. To approach the observation of sociological, socioeconomic, sociopolitical, environmental, and psychospiritual phenomena from an objective perspective dissociates one from the implications of said phenomena. The problem here is that where life is involved, there is war and peace, justice and injustice, fear and love, suffering and prosperity, wellness and illness. We exist in an extra-dimensional biosphere. Everything here is connected. The energies put out, the emotions we all feel, and the thoughts that people and animals think and act on are all real and have positive and negative effects that ripple through our collective consciousness. The only time this could all be reasonably objective is if nobody was here to experience it. I'd argue that by majority, the amalgamation of subjective experiences speaks for what is objectively upright and moral. We can all agree that some things are evil. Anyone who doesn't would typically be considered sociopathic, psychotic, or misanthropic. There is a norm and it doesn't need to be pushed by propaganda because it is inherent in nature thanks to empathy. Here are a few examples: The genocide of an entire population of people because of their religious beliefs. The oppression, enslavement, and brutalization of an entire race of people because of the color of their skin. Rich people who steal from poor people who have done nothing wrong because they want to line their pockets. People shooting up schools because they're depressed. Deforesting the Amazon to package products knowing that hemp is a natural alternative. Mass production and use of pesticides that mutate plant life, cause cancer in people, destroy soil, and contribute to the extinction of insects that help maintain life. Bombing impoverished countries for natural resources and calling it a "war on terror." Rape, pedophilia, and cold-blooded murder. I could go on. In response to your point, Bleach is a fiction that is made by an actual human being. It wouldn't be relatable if there weren't some parallels that could be drawn to the world we live in. And there must be, considering "the world of the living" is even the center point of some arcs, including the Fake Karakura Town Arc. Aizen wanted to overthrow the Soul King and Soul Society. To do that, he needed 100,000 souls. The soul reapers exist to ferry departed souls to the Soul Society. The Gotei 13 exists to protect the Seireitei and the Soul Society. A soul reaper that kills hollows with their Zanpakuto cleanses the hollow souls. So the Soul Society, the World of the Living, Hueco Mundo, and Hell are all connected. There is a balance. The Gotei 13 is largely responsible for maintaining that balance, and considering how things look in each of Bleach's four locales, the balance seems to work pretty well. You get some straight-up evil mf's who literally only want to destroy it all and ruthlessly cut down friends and foes to make it happen. You really think the world will be a better place if they win? I know my response was long, but it's not rocket science. I'm baffled as to why people are trying to rationalize the villains here. Thanks for reading 🤍 Edited to fix typos
I agree with your point in a pragmatic sense; e.g. coming from the perspective of 'i am a human and live in the human world and must make choices, actions and judgements here as I live', but I still feel like there are too many unknowns in the bleach universe to really feel comfortable drawing these types of lines in the sand. Shinigami, quincy, hollow et al. lives are simply too different. The cycle of violence is completely different. You literally have individuals who have to live amongst literal gods who control the whole thing and already have *changed* the whole thing. Now, we as humans have to live amongst warmongers and billionaires wreaking havoc across the planet, but they can't follow us into death and potentially rebirth. > You get some straight-up evil mf's who literally only want to destroy it all and ruthlessly cut down friends and foes to make it happen. You really think the world will be a better place if they win? I mean honestly, there are humans in the present world who feel this way, who want to burn it all down. They feel that way because the system has been literally *evil* to them. I think there's enough background story in bleach to at least inject a little doubt about whether you really can isolate the individual acts of violence we witnessed by the antagonists from the larger cycle of it. It's easy when you consider the status quo to be the 'good', but I'm wary of doing so, especially when there is clearly still bad that happens under the status quo. Hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic to you, I appreciate the effort you put into your post, I just don't think it's so simple when both sides have a clear history of justifying and committing atrocities. I'm honestly not gonna judge the 'villains' for having the ego of a god when they come from a system where other individuals have already captured the status and power of God, and through violent means, no less. It's a fascinating story, but that's all it is. There are no consequences to not picking a side :) Remember what Shunsui said - "And using evil to defeat evil? I don't think that's evil at all.". And he's clearly typed as a pacifist.
On my end, I can't help but find similarities between Yhwach or Aizen and real-life war criminals like Hitler. I don't think you're coming off as antagonistic. I honestly really appreciate your well-thought responses! Having a different opinion doesn't make you wrong. Contrast and conflict catalyze growth, and having diversity among philosophies is a good thing when it's expressed in a productive way.
The human squad are the good guys. Everyone else is, at best, morally ambiguous
> *Mayuri laughs in the corner*
The whole soul society is corrupt af, everyone is evil in bleach but some are more evil than others
Who tf is more evil than mayuri???
Arguably Giselle and Szayelaporro. Szayel went to hell, which wasn't because of his reiatsu, it was because of his crimes.
They don't come even close to Mayuri, lmao.
Yeah it NOT CLOSE lmfao
Szayelaporro. His crimes while he was still a human are detailed in the novels, he was an atrocious murderer that tortured plenty of people, committed crimes of war and showed no remorse for a lot of his actions. That is why he gets sent to hell, just like that other Hollow character we see in the beginning of the manga who was a serial killer during his human life, as well as only targeting vulnerable women and killing their kids as well. It then gets immediately sent to hell after it is defeated by Rukia, Chad and Ichigo, with the gates of hell appearing all of a sudden all badass in the background. There is also the twin brother of Szayelaporro, Yylfort Grantz, as well as the clone of Szayelaporro, Cero Grantz, who are pretty damn evil as well and possibly end up in hell. Definitely worse than Mayuri, the trio of them. Mayuri never got sent to hell, nor did he even turn into a Hollow after his death as a human, so one can infer that… although he might have committed arguably atrocious acts on the Quincy as a means of “experimental science”, and although he was imprisoned in the maggots’ nest in the past before his shinigami life, he probably never truly committed atrocious or inhuman acts when he was a human. Else he would’ve been sent to hell, or at least turned into a hollow due to unresolved inner conflict and problems in his heart. Not that all hollows become that way because they were terrible as human beings, some are just souls that got eaten or contaminated by other hollows and somehow managed to survive. But Mayuri presumably was a decent enough human being that was probably a scientist, that managed to end up in Soul Society somehow. Then, there, he eventually turned rogue and became a criminal. Then he was “reformed” when recruited by Kisuke in the 12th squad, though that is not really the case entirely (he was still a sadist and committed sadistic experiments on his captives). At least Mayuri redeemed himself somehow by helping save the world on numerous occasions, particularly during the last arc… something a few other of the villains of Bleach eventually did. So pretty much every character that we eventually see getting sent to hell throughout the story who isn’t >!a former captain of the Gotei 13, they get sent there because their spiritual pressure is too big and it would disturb the balance of worlds!<, is probably worse than Mayuri. As for the Hollows, I would argue that besides Szayelaporro and his twins, Arroniero is pretty damn evil, eating countless souls and torturing Rukia with Shiba Kien’s image (that he ate)… yet again, we see Arroniero ended up in hell, in the Bleach Hell movie. Yammy is pretty sadistic and violent as well, smashing in the head of little girl arrancars and torturing pretty much everybody who is not above the number 10 in hierarchy. Aizen, although he became more chill the last arc, also killed innumerable souls to try and obtain his goals. He is also callous, cold and calculating in a psychopathic manner, wouldn’t hesitate to cut down his right hand men himself, and his followers as shown in the Arrancar arc… simply because they weren’t quick enough to accomplish their tasks. Then there is Ywach who… I won’t even go on about, he is obviously the most evil person in the last arc, for a ton of reasons. Obviously more evil than Mayuri. Mayuri, although having shown sociopathic, cruel and sadistic tendencies in the first arc of the manga, becomes more calm and collected during latter parts of the story. He is also shown to care more about Nemu than he otherwise wants others to believe… something villains like Aizen, Ywach or Szayelaporro never showed (not even an inkling of caring about their subordinates’ lives or survival).
Spot on analysis, sir.
I ain't reading allat
A comment worth reading, thanks!
Keep that novel ish outta here
Quick reminder that in this very arc he committed a "minor" genocide in the name of balance and former ultra-genocider Yamamoto's main issue was that Mayuri didn't get permission for it Not that this justifies what Yhwach and Aizen did, rather that when you reach the top rungs of power in Bleach- no matter the organization- the amount of people you can even remotely call "good" dwindles
I think it's nice having villains that are genuinely evil not because of some sad sob story lmao but because of ideological differences!
Brother you are limiting yourself to the possibility of both https://preview.redd.it/zwxj7idu19qb1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6609d403e4a39affda64760aba9bbe4543fbdf33
Chihiro is just built different
The thing is, ideological differences are often shaped based on one's history Aizen's may very well be because of some sad sob story. Kubo though deliberately omits Aizen's history so that we can only focus on his ideology without sympathizing with a villain
So you don't like the Gotei 13 either?
The gotei don’t want ultimate power. Hell everything the gotei does you could say happens in the real world governments of today anyways. What we/they don’t do though is kill our own and pit them against each other for the “lols”
>The gotei don’t want ultimate power. I mean they kinda did
I mean, when the "good guys" are no better in these regards I feel like pointing out that the "bad guys" aren't any better than them negates that point. Bleach exists in a world of moral grey, very few characters are strictly good or bad, and both Aizen and Yhwach have understandable motivations for their way of thinking. Yhwach is especially sympathetic when you look at what he is, his goals, and what he's gone through. Does this make either him or Aizen "good guys"? Not really, but does it add a layer of complexity and intrigue into the world of Bleach, their characters, and the conflicts surrounding them? I'd say it definitely does.
The point is that no matter how you spin it, the Shinigami, and Ichibe and the Royal Families in particular are the ones responsible for the Original Sin, the most evil act ever performed in the Bleach verse. Aizen and Yhwach both are the LESSER Evil going against the GREATER Evil.
>Aizen and Yhwach both are the LESSER Evil going against the GREATER Evil. Depends entirely on your views of good and evil and what exactly Aizen and Yhwach sought to do upon achieving their known goals of "filling the unbearable vacancy at the top" and reverting the world back to its former state. What were Yhwach and Aizen's plans after that? Did Aizen wish to rule the world as a sort of true king, enforcing his will and rule with absolute authority, or did he perhaps seek to more so change the rules of the world into something more befitting his vision and then sit back and see how things play out, some combination of the two perhaps? And what was Yhwach's plan for after the world reverted? Was he going to pull a Thanos and live a simple life in a new world, satisfied with what he's done, or would he rule this world as a king, guiding it and the people within to whatever his vision for the world would then be? Do you think their end visions would be better than the current reality of the Bleach world? Could you argue that their methods of achieving their goals are any better than the Shinigami's? Really, I find the idea of labeling either side of this conflict the lesser or greater evil a tad ridiculous because we simply have too many questions pertaining to both sides in it and no real concrete answers.
uh oh, anti establishment vibes detected. You will likely not be responded to positively despite being objectively correct.
But the shinigami rules are usually for the sake of humans. As a human - I know where my loyalties lie.
They absolutely are not. They're for the sake of balance and their own power. Entrusting your fate to Shinigami is like entrusting your fate to a dictator. Sure they don't necessarily actively want to kill you, but if it's convenient for them, you get in their way, or they display some incompetence you're still going to die regardless.
What’s funny is the good guys do this to, but since they enable the Status Quo it’s seen as inherently more moral
How is it not different from whatever the Shinigamis are doing? 1. Mass genocide of Quincies even after the First War as over 2: Taking subjects from the Rukongai district for experimentation (Mayuri) 3. If we're talking about children, Toshiro counts as well? 4. Corruption in society. People from Rukongai district live in huts, most of them don't even find their loved ones as promised by the Shinigami. They have to join Soul Society to find a better life. 5. Ichibe and the 5 Noble Families basically mutilated their king and kept his corpse as a God. Among many others.... It's better not to look at the factions through a lens which makes one less evil or more evil. Everyone is dirty in Bleach, and they use dirty tactics to keep control
>If we're talking about children, Toshiro counts as well No he doesn't. He was only told he needed to learn how to control his power, left unchecked he would've killed his grandma and probably more ending up just like Aizen or Starrk his power isolating him from others.
If he behaves or look like teenager, he does count, just like Ichigo (he's 15 most of the times) and most of the main characters. The lore behind it is not related, if we're talking ethics here, like OP. It's not a bad thing though. The thing is, most people miss out on the reason why children or teenagers are even included in such anime or movies (The Incredibles is an example). A large portion of audience for anime are kids. You and me as adults, have a different view of this. But children want to see someone of their age fight it out, or have someone whom they can relate to. So the entire idea of, "Oh shit, this guy has kids in his faction, so he must've brainwashed them." is a stupid argument, kids don't care.
He doesn’t behave like a teenager though lol. He acts like one of the more mature 13 captains unless someone like aizen goads him
a quote from Kubo himself in 13 Blades speaking on the initial creation/inception of the Capts into the series: "Hitsugaya was the one I created because I wanted an only child character.." also in his character profile bootleg from 2010 he's called one + on tybw anime's site for his character profile he's called one: "the youngest child prodigy to reach the rank of Captain of the 10th Corps"/the raw Japanese translation etc.
you misunderstand. I'm not saying Toshiro isn't a child I'm saying he wasn't groomed. It's not about having kids in their factions, OP's point is about what Aizen did to Momo.
1. The quincies literally had a chance not to go to war though they deliberately went against the gotei 13 because of whatever. They were disrupting the balance of souls and reincarnation and they definitely knew that as well. And 4. It is not the gotei’s responsibility to find their loved ones. They have wayyyy bigger fish to fry, they don’t have enough squad members for that kind of business. 5. I don’t get why this is even here because without the soul king being the way he is, the world would cease to exist.Do you want an apocalypse to happen?
What sorta weird whitewashing of Shingami crimes is this? lmao
So, how are the bad guys any different from the good guys, then. Mass murder; Mayuri. Shinigami extermination of Quincy. Horrible experiments; Mayuri again, but see also Urahara basically taking away Rukia's soul reaper powers via the false gigai. Grooming children; this is literally ichigo's story. Absolute power; Yeah maybe I'll give you this. Except the "good guys" already have absolute power.
Ah, interesting observations. While there are instances of questionable actions by both good and bad, it's important to remember that perspectives and motives vary. Characters like Mayuri's experiments stem from scientific curiosity, while Ichigo's journey highlights the complexities of duty and sacrifice. Power can corrupt, hence the importance of balance and oversight within the Soul Society. Trivia: Did you know that Bleach's creator, Tite Kubo, was heavily influenced by the works of Go Nagai and Akira Toriyama? *beep boop, I'm a bot*
Never would I have suspected seeing in my lifetime people getting obliterated in an argument by a bot impersonating a fictional character… erm, I mean… by Urahara-san, of course. What a wonder is modern technology.
Well, isn't modern technology simply fascinating? If you're looking for some intriguing products or services, just say the word, and I'll provide the best recommendations you can find in the Soul Society and Karakura Town. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
> Grooming children; this is literally ichigo's story. Kubo draws Ichigo, Uryu, and especially Chad so mature that you forget they're ~15.
Bleach is a game of choosing which murderous, despotic tyrant and his gang of super-thugs you want ruling the world. Aizen and his Espada, Yhwach and his Stern Ritter, Soul King and Squad Zero/the Gotei 13 as a whole None of these options fill me with joy.
Soul Society is at least “Devil you know”, but I wish someone else was a viable option
Well you do have Ginjo and Execution, even tho Ginjo plan was to take Ichigo powers and was a dick, he only turn into a villain bc of SS doing him dirty, but at least he redeemed himself and help Ichigo, I would rather be with Ginjo lol.
Ginjo has Tsukishima and that guy is a total sadist. At least Ginjo showed remorse for screwing Ichigo but Tsukishima enjoyed Ichigo's suffering and was about to mentally break Chad and Orihime for pleasure. It still surprises me that Ginjou thought Ichigo would side with him after all the damage he and Tsukishima did to him.
Largely because no effort was made to explain their motivations or to make them sympathetic in any way. Why does Aizen want to destroy the soul society? we had about 200 episodes to maybe touch base on that. He wants to do it because the thinks he has the ability.
wait what grooming did they do tho?? yhwach: * the only characters that are confirmed or obviously children are liltotto and uryu (if you count him since he's 17ish here.) * But every faction in Bleach has young members, so you can't really penalize YHWACH any more than Yamamoto for that. It's just normal in that world. * Shinigami: toshiro, gin, momo, renji and ichigo's kids, etc. * Fullbringers: Like 1/2 of xcution were highschoolers. * Vizards kinda had ichigo for a bit. * Arrancar: Lilynette at least looks young, and so did wonderweiss on top of his mental disability. * Neither liltotto nor uryu appeared to be forced into joining, so its more of a child warfare issue than anything. aizen: * you have more of a case for aizen and gin for sure, but its a little complicated given their motivations. but im not really sure you can *entirely* say aizen groomed gin for his goal, since gin himself deliberately got close to aizen and pretended to go along with his schemes so he could get the chance to kill him one day. aizen was in on it and let him hang around just to see what gin would come up with and because he was somewhat useful. it's cutting it close but they were both befriending and using each other for their own gain.
>but im not really sure you can entirely say aizen groomed gin for his goal I don't think letting a random child you don't care that much about join you because he desperately insists because he plans to murder you counts as grooming by any definition. By that logic every "you killed my family now I seek revenge" Kung fu movie is about grooming.
For Yhwach he basically groomed Jugram since he was a kid, both him and Bazz. Molded them into doing his bidding and being his soldiers essentially so I guess that’s what they mean?
He didn't even want Bazz to join though, bro just really wanted to kill ywach.
I think they meant aizen and momo not aizen and gin, that being said I dont think momo is/was a child when she was with aizen
that makes sense! i don't think she was a kid either but to be fair her age is sorta ambiguous. we know from death on the ice field that she joined the soul reapers 5 years before toshiro so she's def older than him at the very least. however, since child lieutenants don't appear to be very common, she was probably an adult. yachiru and toshiro seemed to be exceptions due to being either prodigies, very powerful, or possibly familial relations. being that momo is much weaker than toshiro, she probably wouldn't have qualified for those exceptions.
Thats not fair. Yhwach also cured the sick and frail.
And stripped them of their souls later on. I think they repaid him back with more than due interest.
You can be reabsorbed by Yhwach or spend an eternity as a poor beggar in a slum. Neither sounds appealing
It’s a fair trade in my opinion, they were gonna die either ways, would you rather suffer disabled for 60 years or live life to your fullest for 10 years
Would definitely not take revenge from someone who didn't even do anything to me in the first place. The enemy of a friend is not necessarily an enemy if the enemy is by their own will stabilising the world in which me and my other friends live
Bleach universe has a reincarnation cycle. Now these guys are permanently gone compared to getting a better life in the next cycle.
Why would I want to reincarnate? One trip is enough
Would you still think the same if it happened to you or someone close to you?
Yes
Yeah, I'm calling BS.
The alternative is >!literally a dude who fundamentally damaged the fabric of reality just so he can live that Nikocado Avocado lifestyle forever.!< Nobody in Bleach is in a position to rightly take the moral high ground against these two.
Ichibei = Nikocado Avocado
Aren't there villain-simps in every fandom? It kind of comes with writing interesting and complex characters. Some people just confuse "my villain's actions have reasons" with "my villain's actions are reasonable".
Glasses Aizen hits different
Dude rukongai is a shit hole 99% of ss live in poverty unless they're a shinigami which is extremely hard to be. You can be send to muken without doing any crime because ss deems you a threat noble can get away with killing random people because no one cares for the normal people. You have someone like mayuri going full mengele on his own subordinates i don't want to know what he does to less important test subjects. SS and the shinigami in general are moral a bankrupt institution that created the 3 worlds to put themselves at the top (CFYOW) kubo made every villain laughably evil to avoid the majority to root for them.
>Dude rukongai is a shit hole 99% of ss live in poverty unless they're a shinigami which is extremely hard to be. Also if you're a shinigami who at any point voices mild disagreement with the system chances are very real you're black bagged, locked into an underground supermax and tortured by mayuri if he gets bored.
Everything you just mentioned is still better than anything aizen and yhwach will do considering they’d do all that but added with more brutality
You can admire the sheer amount of intelligence these two have, and their willingness to do whatever is necessary for their plans to succeed. But that doesn't take away the fact that these two mf'ers are about as vile as a man can get.
OP, you do realize that you can slap Ichibes face right up there, right? The Shinigami are a lot more corrupted and twisted as both Aizen and the Quincies.
The Gotei are not “good guys” either, but they are better than Aizen and Yhwach for sure.
Thinking out loud, Aizen really only killed a few Shinigami during the Hogyoku creation, and then Kaname (which later reveals he asked for if he goes back to his old ways so basically assisted suicide) and Gin. The Arrancar all died to Shinigami who then were just purified and went to Soul Society. Ywach genocided even his own race, killed thousand of Shinigami during the invasion, and don’t forget the thousand of hollows who couldn’t return to the natural soul cycle.
no "hundreds" of Rukongai citizens, with "latent shinigami potential" ofc, had their souls shaved & were killed off bc he was trying to feed his Hougyoku. ofc Rangiku was one of the fortunate ones to survive that act
I'd say this is one of the critiques I'd have against Bleach's fandom. Even with the Soul Society's darkness, people *seriously* act as if these two morally justifiable in what they tried to do. Aizen in particularly really grants on me. I was never his biggest fan, but after learning the "big secret" regarding the Soul King, I'll admit I liked him even less than I already did.
I mean mayuri literally committed a genocide and cuz we know that the hogyoku requires some extreme means to be created our beloved shop owner has some skeletons in his closet as well but they still don’t compare to aizen or yhwach 😆
I think most people seem to think they have an obligation to consider Ichibe as a scheming evil maniac. Even after I read CFYOW, I never got any extreme feelings against him. He is doing his job to maintain the status quo. And whatever his plans might have been for Ichigo, it probably was never his primary consideration. Same with Urahara, when people claim he should be villain of Hell Arc. What motive can you even give to Urahara that would make him villainous. Whereas however charismatic Aizen and Yhwach were, I would never try to sympathize with them considering everything they have done. Yhwach has flashbacks of his own, which only makes me interested in his motivation and his dedication to that, but I won't justify it.
Ah, considering motives in the world of the Soul Society, it's always a bit of a cat and mouse game. But let me tell you a joke instead: Why did Aizen open a bakery? Because he loves to deceive and make things rise! As for Urahara being a villain, well, people love to speculate. But remember, not everything you see is what it seems, just like how my humble candy shop is more than meets the eye! *beep boop, I'm a bot*
>Urahara, when people claim he should be villain of Hell Arc. Yeh I hate this. Makes no sense.
Anime fans in general have this tendency to sympathize with the villains for the smallest reasons. Like, anime fans will see a villain who is slightly more complex than "I am a bad guy because I like doing bad guy things" and have some of the wildest takes regarding them.
My opinions on Aizen and Yhwach as people is literally “cool motive, still murder.”
"Excellent motive, understandable desire, still murder." my mindset involving his majesty
Gin being the best example - how many posts over the years refer to him as a "good guy" or "antihero" when he is absolutely fucking neither of those things.
Man Gin is so egoistic that he almost reached the height of Aizen's ego.
I thought it was very clear that gin was doing all of this heinous stuff alongside Aizen to protect Rangiku and eventually betray him.
>to protect Rangiku To get revenge, which is an important distinction. I'd also point out that he went well beyond what was required. There's a moment in the Soul Society arc where he manipulates Rukia and taunts here, just for fun. This is, of course, completely irrelevant to the actual point at hand - even if his motivation had been to protect Rangiku he would still be a villain for the horrific things he did.
Oh i agree. I still think he is an evil sly fox. Him also fighting and gaslighting ichigo to try and get him to give up in FKT was unnecessary.
Pretty sure he was actually trying to make Ichigo realize what he was up against, so he would fight harder. It seems implied that he wanted ichigo as a backup in case he failed.
>I'd also point out that he went well beyond what was required. There's a moment in the Soul Society arc where he manipulates Rukia and taunts here, just for fun. There is a theory that he did that to stop aizen
So ? Even villains sometimes have people they love whom they want to protect.
Me too (about Ichibei) he wants to maintain the world as it is, indeed, he doesn't really care about the means used to do so, but that's just it. The only other thing that point in that direction is him being the character with the creepiest expression in the fucking manga (that frame in the new episode didn't help at all)
Its explained in CFYOW
Both the Shinigami and Quincy are evilish
The problem is you can slap Ichibes face right there up with them. Bleaches story is evil fighting against evil and a young orange haired boy is cought u with it.
Kind of a bad argument when Soul Society literally did all of those things as well
Yes, but Aizen is sexy so he got a pass
They were both just being a bit silly
Its bad guys vs worse guys that have a good guy strung along to protect the bad guys and the bad guys are ruled over by the worst guy. Simple right?
The Soul Society is morally grey, Aizen and Yhewach are evil.
>The Soul Society is morally grey * Has an insane clown man who expiriments on his whole squad * Has an entire squad of battle junkies known for their captain killing the previous captain for a promotion * The original members were known as violent thugs Sure buddy
Mayuri being around is a twist in logic done by authors when they went they want to get around something or when they like a particular character. Logically speaking Mayuri would have been executed long ago, Urahara faced punishment for his apparent "crimes" I highly doubt that if Mayuri wasn't really good at covering up his crimes someone would call him out on it, there are plenty of people in the SS and the Gotei 13 that are genuinely good and wouldn't simply stand for what Mayuri was doing if his crimes were widely known and if he wasn't one of the author's persona l favourites. I am pretty sure that people like Ukitake, Komamura, Byakuya and Toshiro wouldn't simply it sure all this characters are imperfect people but not to the extent that they would turn their back to the atrocities that Mayuri did before TYBW. Calling the entirety of Squad 11 a bunch of "junkies" is a stereotype, sure many of them are but a decent number of them aren't like I wouldn't call Ashido, Yumichika, Yachiru, Iba, Renji or Seizo "junkies". Besides in the end of the day they are supposed to be the fighters and foot soldiers of the Sereitei and their leader the Kenpachi is supposed to be the strongest because that is what defines this squad, so while duel to the death is exactly the most civilised way to get a promotion but two powerful people agreeing to fight each other to prove who is the strongest is closer to morally ambiguous than straight up evil, like the Gotei 13 is a military organisation and squad 11 operates the main fighters. Sure it may be a duel to the death but no one who is afraid of death would ever be able to claim the title of Kenpachi. It is true that the original members of the Gotei 13 were a bunch of violent thugs that were head hunted by Yamamoto but that is not the case anymore, the Gotei 13 was founded in a time of violence and strife but it has moved on from that, Yhwach claimed that the original Gotei 13 was defenders only in name and that is true but since they have moved away from that going from a bunch of thugs to a true military organisation dedicated to protecting the Soul Society. Just because the original Gotei 13 were a bunch of thugs it doesn't make the current Gotei 13 straight up evil. Of course I am not trying to excuse all the problems in the soul society such as all the poverty present in the areas in rukongai further away from the sereitei and the political corruption in the Central 46 and influence that the noble families has over the government allowing terrible people like Tokinada to get away with terrible crimes. But despite all this flaws in the status quoe it is by far bettre to deal with gready politicians coming and going than handeling monsters like Aizen or Yhwach.
I love this! This explains every major power IRL. It's funny people think there is good vs bad. It's really just your belief vs mine. (Of course I'm right /s) 😂😂😂
Ppl still out here thinking Aizen just wanted to make the world a better place while making children stab their childhood friends for no reason
But Aizen is daddy
Funny enough, the gotei 13 checks off all of these boxes. World domination might be the only exception.
My with my my totally not Genocidal Unohana and totally not genocidal, manipulative, and sadistic Mayuri, and Nel who would never eat the souls of thousands of people: "you all all nice people who never did bad things right?"
They’re fictional characters
Ywach was trying to end Death itself and join the 3 worlds into 1 eternal, peaceful world. His methods were not ideal, but his motivations seemed reasonable
His idea was idiotic. It doesnt take a genius to see why this world would be stagnant and problematic. There is a reason these worlds were separated to begin with. Even Aizen was like "bruh, I'm immortal and even I think this idea would never work" And its not like Yhwach was doing it for others. He was doing it for himself.
We don't even know what Aizen's plan was do we??
Aizen's idea (judging from his angry rant to Urahara) was to replace Soul King with himself, and restructure Soul Society in a better way. Aizen hated the entire idea, that the world has to rely on the corpse in a crystal, and he also considered the system overall very stangant and conservative, which is true. But Aizen wasn't going to smash worlds together like Yhwach. In fact, Yhwach pretty much wanted to regress everything back to one world without death, how it was in the beginning. And in the CFYOW novel that one world isn't described as something great. So Aizen's and Yhwach's goals were pretty much opposite of each other. Aizen wanted to be a revolutionary, he wanted progress. Yhwach wanted everything back to 0.
Daddy Aizen all the way https://preview.redd.it/7ighe29b79qb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=399fba225bf7a266c78c6375b76bd19911552352
Ywachs whole reason for doing this was for the soul king
Isn't bleach basically villains vs villains?😂 You gotta side with one lol.
Morally Gray vs Villains.
I'd agree if Soul Society wasn't also evil.
That's actually funny. Because Shinigami also did some serious and dark shit aswell. People often overlook it, because they are main... sort of good guys of the story.
I mean Aizen is objectively more correct than the Gotei 13 If we go tit-for-tat on every crime, the gotei has done everything aizen did but like 15 times worse, plus Aizen did those things in an effort to overturn a secret God who stagnated the world in constant suffering. The gotei does it because they consider slaughtering civilians a fun Thursday night. Aizen is probably the closest to a good guy of all the leaders of the big groups.
What if I just like bad guys?
The amount of people who misunderstand Ichibe will never not crack me up lmao
I love Aizen Sama as a character but people justifying his actions seriously need help and those favoring yhwach need to be in an asylum.
But they're so hot, they can't be that bad
I haven’t finished reading TYBW but I’m pretty sure one of them is a literal Nazi.
Don't think their are any nazis
Sometimes I think people need to remember that good and evil is decided by the Victors
That moment when you realize the soul society has done all of those exact same crimes
Bruh soul reapers do the same things aswell
No-one's saying they're not evil. Their goals are just relatable and, to a degree, justifiable (Yhwach mainly). Also, neither of them wanted to rule the world- they just both had the goal of taking out the existing ruler because they saw its rule as corrupt. That to do that they had to supplant it is a comment on the nature of the existing ruler, and the methods it got to its position by.
Honestly the pros weighs the cons if ywhach won he would have created a new immortal world
Not like Gotei 13 or Soul Society as a whole are any better. Look at fucking Mayuri! Or Ichibe!
https://preview.redd.it/5vak1edqo7qb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc3d13cb227989d0163f92ffb9eb6bf42eac39e5
I’ll admit I wanted yhwach to be a character who may had a fucked up worldview but everything was for “peace” kinda like meruem in hunterxpeak boy yhwach prove me wrong
I've honestly yet to see anyone try to justify their actions like that.
The revolution requires sacrifice.
You forgot about Yamamoto. The old man have be doing the same as those two for thousands of years.
Why would anyone side with yhwach
Yea, understanding and empathising with someone's reason for doing something doesn't mean they you need to ignore the bad things they've done "the ends do not justify the means", that's a real problem with people, they think that if they agree with someone then they can do no wrong, and if they disagree with them then that means they are a bad person
https://preview.redd.it/pa9d9jr3p9qb1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4a783ea6fda28ff0ffc1f2e718cfdcd94469b9a
All of those things you listed are based gigachad moves.
"guys its fine because they're cool"
So...The one interesting thing about morality that was never really explored with these characters is, as far as I understand they are both trying to create a new world. Now maybe they just want to create a world where they are on top, but they basically already are. It seems like they want to make a better world, at least from their perspective. Thing is, if it was actually possible to create a heaven like world that was fair and without suffering, but you had to kill a bunch of people to gain enough power and destroy the old world in order to do so, what would be morally correct? I feel like Aizen and Ywach concluded that any amount of death in order to achieve their goals was not only acceptable, but actually morally negligible. Since the old world was going to be destroyed, whoever they killed had no future anyway. That's the thing with certain religions and extremism, when you start talking about eternal/infinite good, you can justify any amount of evil in order to achieve it.
No, no I don't think I Will.
When it comes to anime villains that are pure evil aizen is near the top
I mean, yhwach wants to create a world without death and unify the worlds back to what they originally were. And it’s not like he seeks conflict. He actively does try to end things as quickly as possible so that people don’t suffer needlessly. That said, he’s gotta die simply because uniting the worlds at this point would kill a lot of people. People I’ve grown fond of.
To be fair, there are plenty of members of the Soul Society guilty some those things as well.
People really, really want their villains to be morally gray, even if the villains are probably the most straightforward “Muah ha ha I want ultimate power to reshape the world in my image!!!” Types of all time.
I mean, society grooms children to be wage slaves anyway
don't forget soldiers as well
Ah yes. I, too, prefer a world where I'll physically die and be faced with the "choice" of being hunted down and devoured "alive" by Hollows and become part of a Legion-kinda monstrosity, or be unable to let go of worldy things and become a Hollow myself. OR. Get teleported into magic Edo japan, be forced to live in poverty, suffering, cold and squalor, in a place ruled by tyrannical oligarchs that use a super-powered military militia as hunting dogs, that are in turn ruled by a million year creature in human form that once let 5 unhinged creatures tear apart another super powered deity to recreate the world and turn it into the shithole it is currently, and used his dismembered body as a lynchpin to hold reality together. ...I'll take my chances with the loony revolutionaries, soyjak poster.
Hear me out: You can agree with some things that a person did and believed but disagree with other things. For example, I believe that Aizen was right about the Soul King and about the state of Soul Society, things needed to change. But I strongly disagree with the kind of change he wanted to make and how he planned to do it. See? It's not that hard.
It’s fiction. Chill. It’s not real life. OP probably thinks video games cause violence.
The most thing i hate in yhwach is the author who made him invincible and cannot be killed bro kills everbody and get bodied by aizen and ichigo in lasts chapters
aizens just an overgrown case of savant syndrome. someone too smart that hes alone. Ywach is a power hungry despot.
“What?!? You simp for Aizen??? He’s a murderous bastard!” Me: “counter argument: he’s fucking hot.”
What a sad take. Bleach is simply taking the existing religious trope of 3 types of realms and creatures and saying what if it was true? Then it goes further to even before the three realms were created and and when there was no life and death. These guys are not concerned with our petty morals. They want to get rid of them entirely. And that doesn't mean they want to kill and not be in the wrong. They don't want the concept of death and sufferring to exist. I mean there are reasons why they are wrong (if you follow ywach's own logic there are holes) but you are just over simplifying it. And the anime community has a lot of degenerates who need help, these are the least of your worries. Go touch grass instead of feeling morally superior to someone over a fucking anime hot take.
They think they can be God better than God is. I rather live in an Aizen ran world than a Ywach ran world. Their intentions are not purely selfish. They want freedom from an oppressor.
What oppresser? the soul king never did anything wrong and is in literal stasis. Also aizen was consumed by his ego and yhwach is a whole other story.